Caleb p you Must be at a very slow airport. Usually the fbos help in this situation and you can only hope they have enough staffing and are not busy when this happens. On a side note. I woulda just pushed that bad boy back short of the hold short line lol
@@jaraujo1021 yea, our airport is pretty slow, maybe 10 commercial flights a day. But, from when it happens to when they call us, we get out there and drag it in, it’s usually about that. The actual tow back in isn’t usually too bad. They were probably worried about damaging the wheel halves over anyone else’s schedule
@@jaraujo1021 same i would have just hopped out and pushed the airplane back clear of the hold short so they could use the 2nd runway but maybe pilot was solo and pushing a saratoga with a flat by yourself might not be possible
I see a lot of push it by hand comments and I understand that thought but lots of factors in play… if it’s just flat it depends on what tire they have. I’ve seen 10 ply tires stay basically round but a 4 ply would put the wheel straight on the pavement. If it blew on landing it probably made the wheel not so round anymore. We have some plastic skids I think that came from wrecker supply place at my little local airport I’ve seen used for this before. Just a matter of having people there with enough experience to get the plane moved and not damage anything. With the cost of aircraft I think Sometimes guys get scared to act when in reality there’s a dozen ways you could get this aircraft back over the line.
I blew a left main on landing during my first cross county, luckily it wasn't the solo. I remember the instructor, who didn't realize yet what had happened, calmly at first and then increasingly more frantically shouting "right rudder" as we drifted towards the the side of the runway. Eventually he jumped on the pedals himself and realized I had the damn thing pinned to the floor and he helped apply some brake to save us going into the ditch. Good experience overall, but not much fun. Only took Ops about 10minutes to get a tug out to us.
I blew a right main back in my first x-country as well. Dirt strip in Queensland. We got a lift to the local pub, instructor called the school and the owner flew out in his 180 with a spare and made me change it (told me how and helped to do it of course!) then we headed home. Same thing, I was surprised just how stranded you are, we couldn't taxi anywhere. I think my instructor put an orange cone he found on top of the wing as a "warning" lol.
I feel like a hour is a little excessive for a flat …seen it happen at a relatively bid delta and they hooked a golf cart to the Cessna and dragged it in 15 mins pretty sure it was a private golf cart too just a dude working at a nearby hanger ….
Agreed, not with a flat. These tires use tubes, and when that pops, the metal hub of the wheel digs into the asphalt. Impossible to move, they usually put a dolly under the flat and then tow it.
@@markg999 You are incorrect. I've pushed both Pipers and a Cirrus SR22 with flats by hand. It can be done quite easily really. I worked for a major FBO chain as a ramp guy with tow certification.
@@selimeylul8292 You are incorrect. I've pushed both Pipers and a Cirrus SR22 with flats by hand. It can be done quite easily really. I worked for a major FBO chain as a ramp guy with tow certification.
I’ve towed some disabled aircrafts off the runway/taxiways. Gotta contact the right people, get paperwork filled out, since It’s a flat probably gotta have a mechanic inspect it then get the wheel on a dolly and secure it before towing. From my experience it takes more than 10-15 minutes.
@@SLopezz Absolutely. Delay sucks but potential damage and FOD from dragging a damaged landing gear around an intersection no less is absolutely not an option. Guess this guy will get a big UPS bill with his next Amazon delivery lol
Yes, they could have. I've pushed both Pipers and a Cirrus SR22 with flats by hand. It can be done quite easily really. I worked for a major FBO chain as a ramp guy with tow certification.
It's for the hold they are planing to do. The controller is giving them autonomy on how far and fast they can go in their hold pattern (within the confines of the "Polo" holding point). Leg refers to a section of the holding pattern. i.stack.imgur.com/LyBGQ.jpg
Legs refer to the distance of the holding pattern oval, typically 5 or 10 miles. Speed would be how fast they go. ATC is telling the pilots that they can decide how fast and how far they fly.
It was in regards to the hold at PLL. The inbound course, length of the legs, and airspeed in the hold is up to the pilot to decide. Basically what ever works best for the pilots to set up in the FMS.
Makes a change usually had packages from the US here within a week, USPS & RM it usually takes a month as it sits on a shelf for a week waiting to go to customs then a week between to be sent, 3 days in customs here and nearly 2 weeks sitting on a shelf at RM
This is pretty stupid on the ops people. That Piper is not that big or heavy, and the ops guy and the pilot could have pushed the plane backwards across the hold short line. How do I know? I've done it when working for a major FBO chain as ramp guy. These planes when not flat are routinely moved by one person by hand pretty easily. Two people pushing one with a flat is easily doable. How do I know? I've done it for both Piper Cherokees, and Cirrus SR-22. The SR-22 was harder because of the wheel pants but it was able to be moved by me, the pilot and one other ramp guy to get it off the taxiway before we could get a tow bar and tug on it. The tow under the tug caused more damage to the wheel pant than us moving it by hand did.
I blew a tyre in a 172 and couldn't move it, the thing was on it's rim. Sure I could rotate it a bit but that was all. It was on grass but a seized rim isn't going to play. I was a big strong lad at the time playing first grade colts rugby and couldn't clear it off the runway. Yes not flat you can push them around no worries. For all we know this bloke could have bent the rim as well or seized the bearings.
It's striking to me that a tiny blown tire can cause this much trouble a time lost. Why can't they just send a truck quickly? Aren't there firefighters standing by at all times? The delay of one hour for UPS would have cost a lot of money.
Maybe call UPS, tell them what's up, give them the option to pay for tow damage to free up a runway now. Or option B; they can circle multiple aircraft, for an indeterminate amount of time before diverting. Hook it to a pickup truck and drive a few feet. Or have them send some of their people to pick the thing up and drop it on a furniture mover, dolly, cart, skateboard, trash can wheeled base, etc.
Not the GA pilot’s fault, but you just can’t have a delay like that costing hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars over a PA32. Hook a chain up to it off and drag it out of the movement area immediately.
@@A.J.1656 I agree. I've pushed a car half a kilometer before. It wouldn't be a challenge to push a similar weight airplane. A single flat tire would make it more difficult, but it should be possible for a strong individual to move it clear of the hold short line with a bit of sweat. It's not like the rim was missing and the plane will roll on that.
@@VASAviation I'm not sure if you are imagining I'm a small man or that the Saratoga is a big airplane. Neither is true. I was pulling and pushing 5,400lb -86 diesel GPUs in the USAF. I worked at a private airport where I stacked hangars full of GA airplanes from Cubs to Citations and moved hundreds of airplanes by hand. After that I was a flight instructor for several years. I've pushed twins around at self serve fueling stations in the middle of the night on cross country flights. Yeah, I know I can push a Saratoga.
Your reply is an episode of "when uninformed idiots comment". If you paid attention, you would have heard that ARFF didn't respond (pilot said he didn't need them). Ops 2 is the airport manager or other official, but not ARFF. They probably should've sent ARFF, but no one called them.
@@bestguy1294 You're right. Better to divert several large jets instead of moving one much smaller aircraft by hand. Yes. I like the way you think. Let's have more of you please. Vote harder for Joe Biden.
@@DomManInT1 Yanks and politics is hilarious but lets stick with the subject matter. I've tried pushing a C172 back with a blown tyre (seized bearings and all) and it's pretty bloody impossible. It's like trying to push a giant tricycle shopping cart backwards with all the weight on the seized wheel. Not fun.
@@goodshipkaraboudjan That is why you grab a hose off a fire truck, tie it to the truck and to the aircraft and start driving. But, idiots are not that resourceful or creative.
All these inquiries of being beyond the hold short point..... There should be eyes (zoom camera, person with binos, whatever) covering every inch of those taxis & runways. This day and age, c'mon....and don't say it's an issue of money. Bull crap. 😂
My package!
I've been waiting for my parcel now I know where it is!
Did you hear about the Breeze A220 that diverted to STL due to medical? SNA to PIT continuing to PVD
I wonder if 87V had a new tire coming in by UPS.
i actually had a package (Chewy, cat litter) stuck in chicago for a few days last month and was wondering haha
“I’ve never flat before…” You can hear the deflation in pilot’s voice. Confidence just blown out. ….I’ll see myself out.
Feel bad for the guy, I'm sure he was pretty embarrassed even though it's not his fault.
Clearly an embarrassing situation for the Piper Pilot. Thank you very much for picking this incident up!🙂👍
Good management overall. A nice blend of urgency yet not letting urgency overwhelm common sense. Very nice from all involved.
"We only have 10 to 15 minutes of holding time."
"OPS, how long will it take to clear the runway?"
"About 10 to 15 minutes."
Big oof, lmao.
I blame that on ops, have done MANY tire blown rescues up to CRJ size, and at best it’s 45 minutes.
Caleb p you Must be at a very slow airport. Usually the fbos help in this situation and you can only hope they have enough staffing and are not busy when this happens.
On a side note. I woulda just pushed that bad boy back short of the hold short line lol
@@jaraujo1021 yea, our airport is pretty slow, maybe 10 commercial flights a day. But, from when it happens to when they call us, we get out there and drag it in, it’s usually about that. The actual tow back in isn’t usually too bad. They were probably worried about damaging the wheel halves over anyone else’s schedule
@@jaraujo1021 same i would have just hopped out and pushed the airplane back clear of the hold short so they could use the 2nd runway but maybe pilot was solo and pushing a saratoga with a flat by yourself might not be possible
My dad’s plane ended up diverting that night. Happened in the middle of the overnight rush
Somebody told me about the incident that ended up diverting. Was it your dad?
Explains him wanting to leave lights on. Good decision at night.
I see a lot of push it by hand comments and I understand that thought but lots of factors in play… if it’s just flat it depends on what tire they have. I’ve seen 10 ply tires stay basically round but a 4 ply would put the wheel straight on the pavement. If it blew on landing it probably made the wheel not so round anymore. We have some plastic skids I think that came from wrecker supply place at my little local airport I’ve seen used for this before. Just a matter of having people there with enough experience to get the plane moved and not damage anything. With the cost of aircraft I think Sometimes guys get scared to act when in reality there’s a dozen ways you could get this aircraft back over the line.
lift on the effected side and push lol
I blew a left main on landing during my first cross county, luckily it wasn't the solo. I remember the instructor, who didn't realize yet what had happened, calmly at first and then increasingly more frantically shouting "right rudder" as we drifted towards the the side of the runway. Eventually he jumped on the pedals himself and realized I had the damn thing pinned to the floor and he helped apply some brake to save us going into the ditch. Good experience overall, but not much fun. Only took Ops about 10minutes to get a tug out to us.
I blew a right main back in my first x-country as well. Dirt strip in Queensland. We got a lift to the local pub, instructor called the school and the owner flew out in his 180 with a spare and made me change it (told me how and helped to do it of course!) then we headed home. Same thing, I was surprised just how stranded you are, we couldn't taxi anywhere. I think my instructor put an orange cone he found on top of the wing as a "warning" lol.
Thanks for the video!
Thank you for watching
Real bummer on the flat tire in the intersection. Doesn't take much to cause some chaos
nope, that's why different call signs are used between Tower, Ops & Controller ...including coordinating everything with the Pilot (and crew)
It's wild how long it took for someone to actually answer whether he was across the hold short line or not
I wouldn't expect people to have night vision.
To be fair, getting an accurate answer is very important, much better than a wild ass guess in the middle of nighttime where aint no one can see shit
Also, RFD’s tower is one of the oldest and shortest 24/7 active towers in the country..so it was probably pretty hard to get an accurate visual.
Love Rockford. Tough Mudder has their event surrounding the airport so you get a bonus of watching the planes all day.
In the heat of battle, a controller wove a tapestry of packages that as far as we know, is still holding in space over Lake Michigan.
Hmmm Fedex will do anything to prevent UPS from having an on time delivery.
Dang this is pretty wild. I wonder how much this ended up costing everyone else in delays and fuel burn.
similar mishap sunwing blew a tire landing in varadero recently and made headlines
That’s why my shoes are delayed 😂
I feel like a hour is a little excessive for a flat …seen it happen at a relatively bid delta and they hooked a golf cart to the Cessna and dragged it in 15 mins pretty sure it was a private golf cart too just a dude working at a nearby hanger ….
I would think that the two guys should have been able push the plane back over the hold line.
Not with a flat....but don't see why they couldn't tow it past the hold short line to allow landings.
Agreed, not with a flat. These tires use tubes, and when that pops, the metal hub of the wheel digs into the asphalt. Impossible to move, they usually put a dolly under the flat and then tow it.
@@selimeylul8292 good to know! I was wondering if it's like pushing a car.
@@markg999 You are incorrect. I've pushed both Pipers and a Cirrus SR22 with flats by hand. It can be done quite easily really. I worked for a major FBO chain as a ramp guy with tow certification.
@@selimeylul8292 You are incorrect. I've pushed both Pipers and a Cirrus SR22 with flats by hand. It can be done quite easily really. I worked for a major FBO chain as a ramp guy with tow certification.
For once it's another vehicle taking up pavement so UPS can't get by. Usually, it's a UPS vehicle parked in the middle of the street blocking traffic.
Couldn't they just push the aircraft slightly behind the hold short line? Maybe I'm just being ignorant here lol, let me know.
I imagine they need to get to the correct tow truck, contact handling, make all paperwork and photos on scene, clean all possible debris...
I’ve towed some disabled aircrafts off the runway/taxiways. Gotta contact the right people, get paperwork filled out, since It’s a flat probably gotta have a mechanic inspect it then get the wheel on a dolly and secure it before towing. From my experience it takes more than 10-15 minutes.
Far better if they were to estimate over, and take less time than expected. Be interesting to hear the rest.
@@SLopezz Absolutely. Delay sucks but potential damage and FOD from dragging a damaged landing gear around an intersection no less is absolutely not an option. Guess this guy will get a big UPS bill with his next Amazon delivery lol
Yes, they could have. I've pushed both Pipers and a Cirrus SR22 with flats by hand. It can be done quite easily really. I worked for a major FBO chain as a ramp guy with tow certification.
That explains what my overnight package from B&H photo was stuck in Indy...
Indy is FedEx, these were UPS.
says souls on board and hours in fuel remaining;)
I wonder if this delayed package deliveries!
What does ATC mean by "legs & speed at your discretion". Legs?
It's for the hold they are planing to do. The controller is giving them autonomy on how far and fast they can go in their hold pattern (within the confines of the "Polo" holding point). Leg refers to a section of the holding pattern. i.stack.imgur.com/LyBGQ.jpg
Legs refer to the distance of the holding pattern oval, typically 5 or 10 miles. Speed would be how fast they go. ATC is telling the pilots that they can decide how fast and how far they fly.
It was in regards to the hold at PLL. The inbound course, length of the legs, and airspeed in the hold is up to the pilot to decide. Basically what ever works best for the pilots to set up in the FMS.
Many thanks for the replies! (I'm not a pilot, just like AV vids ☺️)
It's up to the pilot to determine the length of the legs they do while holding as is the speed.
The comment section never disappoints.
It would have been nice if they could have moved the plane just past the hold short line which didn't seem far.
Makes a change usually had packages from the US here within a week, USPS & RM it usually takes a month as it sits on a shelf for a week waiting to go to customs then a week between to be sent, 3 days in customs here and nearly 2 weeks sitting on a shelf at RM
Interesting strategy for FedEx to use…
whats that on top left side? 05/ ....
Time
Seems like they could have easily pushed the plane over the hold short line. Should have at least contemplated doing it.
It took 4 people to push back a c172 I landed with a flat nose tire, it’s doable. Plus I taxied it to the hangar.
Bit of a different story if it's a main.
This is pretty stupid on the ops people. That Piper is not that big or heavy, and the ops guy and the pilot could have pushed the plane backwards across the hold short line. How do I know? I've done it when working for a major FBO chain as ramp guy. These planes when not flat are routinely moved by one person by hand pretty easily. Two people pushing one with a flat is easily doable. How do I know? I've done it for both Piper Cherokees, and Cirrus SR-22. The SR-22 was harder because of the wheel pants but it was able to be moved by me, the pilot and one other ramp guy to get it off the taxiway before we could get a tow bar and tug on it. The tow under the tug caused more damage to the wheel pant than us moving it by hand did.
I blew a tyre in a 172 and couldn't move it, the thing was on it's rim. Sure I could rotate it a bit but that was all. It was on grass but a seized rim isn't going to play. I was a big strong lad at the time playing first grade colts rugby and couldn't clear it off the runway. Yes not flat you can push them around no worries. For all we know this bloke could have bent the rim as well or seized the bearings.
It's striking to me that a tiny blown tire can cause this much trouble a time lost. Why can't they just send a truck quickly? Aren't there firefighters standing by at all times? The delay of one hour for UPS would have cost a lot of money.
Was it me or did the controller seem confused on what to do?
The tower controller?
That was the pilot who was confused
Look out...
I think you mean Blow out or burst tyre on landing 😂
small plane tires like this definitely go flat, almost never do they burst/explode spectacularly
Why didn’t he push it backwards 5 ft?
Ever tried to push a plane with a flat and a seized wheel?
@@goodshipkaraboudjan no but a flew one across country with a flat and stopped 3 times for gas. Took a lot of rpm to keep it moving
Poor guy - too bad he wasn't a jerk so we could harp on him!
Maybe call UPS, tell them what's up, give them the option to pay for tow damage to free up a runway now. Or option B; they can circle multiple aircraft, for an indeterminate amount of time before diverting.
Hook it to a pickup truck and drive a few feet.
Or have them send some of their people to pick the thing up and drop it on a furniture mover, dolly, cart, skateboard, trash can wheeled base, etc.
Yeah--I don't think UPS is really in the business of towing general aviation aircraft. That's not how liability works!
Hell I would pushed the damn thing by and as long as someone was steering the nose
Not the GA pilot’s fault, but you just can’t have a delay like that costing hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars over a PA32. Hook a chain up to it off and drag it out of the movement area immediately.
Come on guys. I could have pushed that thing myself.
Saratoga with a flat tire? Good luck.
@@VASAviation
I don't need luck. I've pushed much heavier airplanes.
Sure
@@A.J.1656 I agree. I've pushed a car half a kilometer before. It wouldn't be a challenge to push a similar weight airplane. A single flat tire would make it more difficult, but it should be possible for a strong individual to move it clear of the hold short line with a bit of sweat. It's not like the rim was missing and the plane will roll on that.
@@VASAviation
I'm not sure if you are imagining I'm a small man or that the Saratoga is a big airplane.
Neither is true.
I was pulling and pushing 5,400lb -86 diesel GPUs in the USAF. I worked at a private airport where I stacked hangars full of GA airplanes from Cubs to Citations and moved hundreds of airplanes by hand. After that I was a flight instructor for several years. I've pushed twins around at self serve fueling stations in the middle of the night on cross country flights.
Yeah, I know I can push a Saratoga.
Thank you for watching another episode of "When Idiots Meet". (Because ARFF did not have enough persons to just pick the Piper up and carry it away.)
Your reply is an episode of "when uninformed idiots comment". If you paid attention, you would have heard that ARFF didn't respond (pilot said he didn't need them). Ops 2 is the airport manager or other official, but not ARFF. They probably should've sent ARFF, but no one called them.
@@bestguy1294 You're right. Better to divert several large jets instead of moving one much smaller aircraft by hand. Yes. I like the way you think. Let's have more of you please. Vote harder for Joe Biden.
@@DomManInT1 Yanks and politics is hilarious but lets stick with the subject matter. I've tried pushing a C172 back with a blown tyre (seized bearings and all) and it's pretty bloody impossible. It's like trying to push a giant tricycle shopping cart backwards with all the weight on the seized wheel. Not fun.
@@goodshipkaraboudjan That is why you grab a hose off a fire truck, tie it to the truck and to the aircraft and start driving. But, idiots are not that resourceful or creative.
Jeez. This is painful to watch
All these inquiries of being beyond the hold short point..... There should be eyes (zoom camera, person with binos, whatever) covering every inch of those taxis & runways. This day and age, c'mon....and don't say it's an issue of money. Bull crap. 😂
The thing is at night it's dark...
@@goodshipkaraboudjan agreed and human ingenuity created night vision. Anyway, thanks for commenting.
@@buddycheck84 As a pilot if you want to blind me with NVGs around three phase powered light systems then you're pissing into the wind mate.
@@goodshipkaraboudjan an oldie but a goodie saying! 😅