All megaprojects since the three failed pyramids of Pharaoh Sneferu have suffered structural setbacks and financial and schedule overruns. Germany, like every other country, has had its share of these “disasters”, all of which have then miraculously become landmarks that are admired the world over. Nobody complains about the Elbphilharmonie and its price tag anymore, but everyone who sees it from afar or visits it is full of admiration. The same goes for the Sydney Opera House, almost every great cathedral ever built, and so on. Stuttgart 21 is no exception.
Channel Tunnel was built more or less on time, costs were £9 billion, that's a meager 1.6 cost overrun to the foreseen £5.5 billion. S21 ist now at 11.5 billion €, factor 2.5 over initial estimate of 4.5 billion. HS2 started at around 31 bn and guesstimations are now between 98 and 170 bn - depending which scope and whom you ask. So factor 3 ish. Currently the challenge ist led by HS2, but S21 isn't finished by far. There is still hope for us Germans 💪
Easily the biggest issue with Stuttgart 21 in my opinion is that the station only has 8 tracks, the old station had 16 terminus tracks, which is roughly the same capacity. If it had 12 tracks it would have a lot more support.
Today most regional lines starts/ends at the main station. When the new station is ready, regional lines will be combined so that 2 trains becomes 1 just passing through the station and continuing on to the other "extreme" direction. Furthermore, with the ETCS level 2 (And in the future LEVEL 3 and 4) the efficiency and speeds of trains arriving and departing will be drastically improved.
Jaja. Weil‘s das ZDF gesagt hat, gell? :) Ich bin mir sicher, dass bei einem Investitionsvolumen von 11 Milliarden Euro, tausend und abertausende Male nachgerechnet, geforscht und überprüft wird bis man die Anzahl der Gleise festlegt. Aber die Medienagenturen wissen es wahrscheinlich besser…
Delay and inflated costs is normal in Germany but this is an extreme case. All main stations across the county are now being turned into those "modern" buildings, I wish they could at least leave the frontage.
The new station will be a setback to my sport. Atleast twice in a week sbahn and DB bahn made me fit with their delays forcing me run between sbahn to main station to catch my train to Karlsruhe and vice-versa.I am sad now.
3:44 I was at the shown student demonstration and I was 12 years old. It was terrible to see the violence with which the police acted against the young people. Several police officers were convicted of violence in office. One man lost his sight due to water cannon.
Only the real insiders know that the sole purpose of this project is to decrease the time to switch from Stuttgart Hbf (tief) S-Bahn track to the Stuttgart Hbf (main) tracks by 4 minutes and 32 seconds down to a whopping 1 minutes and 18s (depending on your physique and where you leave the S-Bahn though)
With this project the connecting time between Mannheim and Ulm will shrink by 39 minutes (44 if the Fernnordzulauftunnel is approved and built). This will drastically increase demand through the regional as trains from Munich to Frankfurt will go faster through Stuttgart then as through Nürnberg. Therefore increasing trains from Paris to München or From München to Brussels or Amsterdam. Making the whol regions better connected and allowing cheaper train tickets (In theory)
To have a part of the terminal staying open would not be catastrophic - you still have all the new infrastructure. And you could even build buildings above tracks. Look at Shinagawa, Tokyo, where exactly this happens right now.
The thing about the potential damage to tunnels by quickly expanding and contracting rock around them isn't just the expansion and contraction. It's also the moisture itself. The rock rubbing through any moisture protection anytime a major bit of rain hits can deteriorate the structural integrity by soaking it faster than a more stable environment would. Even with the metre-thick tunnel walls they're using, there's only two tracks out each way in a single tube, so a single structural integrity issue will disable the entire station. Some of the above ground terminus platforms should have been planned to be retained from the get go, especially for the connection to Zürich, but developers always get the land they want to build pricy buildings to sell to rich mates.
There are 4 tracks out each way, each in its own tube. By contrast in the old station 99% of the trains go through one of two 19th century tunnels. Stuttgart is choc-full of tunnels, but that doesn't stop the crazies insisting that they're impossible to build here.
Mistake OR megaproject? Why can't it be both? Edit: by the way, I'm curious to see what will happen when the notoriously unreliable Deutsche Bahn loses access to one of the tunnels leading to the station, or to a platform or two. This entire thing appears to be built for precision and efficiency. Yeah, good luck with that...
$679 billion and growing. Through its Belt and Road Initiative, China invested $679 billion on infrastructure projects in nearly 150 countries, between 2013 and 2022. These investments have meaningful economic impacts on some immediate and critical infrastructure needs for developing countries.
I understand the set backs but 31 years! Usually countries build several national infrastructure projects in that time. I am surprised that Germany has so many beleagured projects that take so long.
This projext looks pretty and impressive.. but was a pack of lies from the start. The costs were "underestimated" from the start. No-one expected it to finsh on time. The "advantages" are mininal. ALSO - not only the rock is terrible for underground construction. The platforms are all at an angle so steep that childrens prams start rolling on themselves ! There are also significantly fewer platforms than before. They SHOULD have just just copied the french TGV concept of building a new station for international fast trains just outside the city and providing a quick and frequent link. They could have spent that money on improving DB infrastcture - really needed.. instead of this vanity project.
Wait until the first structural issues are going to be popping up. Probably they already did but we did not learn due to restricted information policy in China.
Dictatorships are like cheetahs. As long as the cheetah is in the right mood and temperament, it can move faster than anything around. That sprint is however, not going to last long. Democracies are like herds of elephants. They move slow, they need to take everyone along. But they are steady, there is a deeper wisdom behind, and can sustain longer journeys. Because it didn't happen in our lifetimes, It is easy to forget how meteorically Germany had risen out literally out of ashes after WW2 to become the backbone of European economy despite the heavy burden of reparations.
I still prefer a slowly over-engineered building rather than a fast, crumbling one. There are enough videos of teetering skyscrapers and dilapidated new buildings in China. The biggest problem is the many court cases with many instances. This can sometimes unnecessarily prolong such projects and increase costs.
@@trappytrap405 “crumbling one” yeah you have never been to China nor studied how they build, they lack nothing that we have, or maybe yes, bureaucracy and politicians corruptions blocking the work.
@@davidedc1 I have never been on the surface of the sun and yet I know what it looks like. There is enough footage and video evidence of construction defects. For example: to build skyscrapers you need concrete, which consists mainly of sand. And this is where the problems start, because you need coarse grains of sand for more stability. The smooth sand we know from the beach is not suitable for this. This concrete is more porous and breaks more quickly. Would you want to live in a high-rise building where even the foundations could be unsuitable? There are a lot of unnecessary standards and regulations in Germany, but I prefer everything to be double and triple checked.
Stuttgart 21 has become an endless money pit and a burden for everyone affected by it. I was just 6 years old when this project was approved, and decades later, we’re still waiting. Meanwhile, other countries can accomplish similar infrastructure work in weeks(Nanlong Railway Station in the south China city of Longyan was done 9 hours... in your face Germany) Where is this 'German Efficiency' everyone talks about? This seems less about efficiency and more about incompetence-or even blatant misuse of taxpayer money. And it doesn’t stop there. Baden-Württemberg is pouring millions into campaigns like 'The Länd,' yet where’s the actual inclusion? I’ve struggled to find anyone speaking English who can assist with integration. I have a child here and no access to a doctor within 35 kilometers. And what about the 45% of my salary taken in taxes? Public transportation is less reliable than in many developing countries, and the state of services is shocking. This isn’t the Germany people envision-without the Marshall Plan, who knows where it would stand today? For taxpayers who work hard and contribute so much, it’s time to see real accountability. Stop wasting money on failing projects and start addressing the real needs of the people.
Don‘t really lnow why they decided to invest money in these projects. The money for these projects should be better invested in other domains that need to be improved.
The Old Station desperately needed improvement. It was quickly following behind on every efficiency parameter. Once you test out Floor heating you never want to live back in a cave.
yep, I walk by there recently a lot, Stuttgart is a much lovely place, but I hope to see this project Stuttgart 21 finished before I die (I am 26 btw)
Good luck, German projects.....
It will be finished in December 2026.
Any infrastructure that links people together, without using cars, is a win for me.
It's ironic because Stuttgart is built on car industry
So... airports for jet airplanes are also a win? 😂
All megaprojects since the three failed pyramids of Pharaoh Sneferu have suffered structural setbacks and financial and schedule overruns. Germany, like every other country, has had its share of these “disasters”, all of which have then miraculously become landmarks that are admired the world over. Nobody complains about the Elbphilharmonie and its price tag anymore, but everyone who sees it from afar or visits it is full of admiration. The same goes for the Sydney Opera House, almost every great cathedral ever built, and so on. Stuttgart 21 is no exception.
Well said, thank you
HS2: 'Allow me to introduce myself.'
Channel tunnel here. Excuse me.
@@LordBallSac Everybody loves the Channel Tunnel and it was a massive success. HS2 costs ten times more and is decades behind.
Channel Tunnel was built more or less on time, costs were £9 billion, that's a meager 1.6 cost overrun to the foreseen £5.5 billion.
S21 ist now at 11.5 billion €, factor 2.5 over initial estimate of 4.5 billion.
HS2 started at around 31 bn and guesstimations are now between 98 and 170 bn - depending which scope and whom you ask. So factor 3 ish.
Currently the challenge ist led by HS2, but S21 isn't finished by far. There is still hope for us Germans 💪
It seems NIMBYs are universal.
What kind of nimbys have you find there?
Easily the biggest issue with Stuttgart 21 in my opinion is that the station only has 8 tracks, the old station had 16 terminus tracks, which is roughly the same capacity. If it had 12 tracks it would have a lot more support.
Today most regional lines starts/ends at the main station. When the new station is ready, regional lines will be combined so that 2 trains becomes 1 just passing through the station and continuing on to the other "extreme" direction. Furthermore, with the ETCS level 2 (And in the future LEVEL 3 and 4) the efficiency and speeds of trains arriving and departing will be drastically improved.
Jaja. Weil‘s das ZDF gesagt hat, gell? :)
Ich bin mir sicher, dass bei einem Investitionsvolumen von 11 Milliarden Euro, tausend und abertausende Male nachgerechnet, geforscht und überprüft wird bis man die Anzahl der Gleise festlegt.
Aber die Medienagenturen wissen es wahrscheinlich besser…
Do you even undestand the difference between a Kopfbahnhof ( Terminus) and the Durschfahrt ( pass through ) Station ?
@@prashantvengurlekar7931 If he didn't then he wouldn't write 8 in one case roughly the same capacity as 16 in the other case.
I don't think the protesters were protesting about the number of platforms.
"High speed line to Zürich". I think 130Km/h is possible in places, but the Gäubahn is mostly very wiggly and part of it is only single track.
Delay and inflated costs is normal in Germany but this is an extreme case. All main stations across the county are now being turned into those "modern" buildings, I wish they could at least leave the frontage.
Leipzig still use its old main station building, that is more then 100 years old.
They are Maintaining the historical station building for Stuttgart 21
The biggest challenge for this project is bureaucracy
no doubts it is great project, one of the best in overall Europe currently
The new station will be a setback to my sport. Atleast twice in a week sbahn and DB bahn made me fit with their delays forcing me run between sbahn to main station to catch my train to Karlsruhe and vice-versa.I am sad now.
3:44 I was at the shown student demonstration and I was 12 years old. It was terrible to see the violence with which the police acted against the young people. Several police officers were convicted of violence in office. One man lost his sight due to water cannon.
Persevere…. it will be worth it. In years to come other major centres will be wishing they had been as visionary as Stuttgart is.
I am sure You never have been in Stuttgart
Once a project is finished, no one ever questions the cost.
Only the real insiders know that the sole purpose of this project is to decrease the time to switch from Stuttgart Hbf (tief) S-Bahn track to the Stuttgart Hbf (main) tracks by 4 minutes and 32 seconds down to a whopping 1 minutes and 18s (depending on your physique and where you leave the S-Bahn though)
You still have humour !👍😅
With this project the connecting time between Mannheim and Ulm will shrink by 39 minutes (44 if the Fernnordzulauftunnel is approved and built). This will drastically increase demand through the regional as trains from Munich to Frankfurt will go faster through Stuttgart then as through Nürnberg. Therefore increasing trains from Paris to München or From München to Brussels or Amsterdam. Making the whol regions better connected and allowing cheaper train tickets (In theory)
To have a part of the terminal staying open would not be catastrophic - you still have all the new infrastructure. And you could even build buildings above tracks. Look at Shinagawa, Tokyo, where exactly this happens right now.
Amazing already but overruns are so common in every large project now
Note that the line to Ulm is a separate project not directly tied to Stuttgart 21 or its funding.
Its the same project, Its called Stuttgart-Ulm Bahnprojekt. It includes S21 and Ulm line.
The thing about the potential damage to tunnels by quickly expanding and contracting rock around them isn't just the expansion and contraction. It's also the moisture itself. The rock rubbing through any moisture protection anytime a major bit of rain hits can deteriorate the structural integrity by soaking it faster than a more stable environment would. Even with the metre-thick tunnel walls they're using, there's only two tracks out each way in a single tube, so a single structural integrity issue will disable the entire station. Some of the above ground terminus platforms should have been planned to be retained from the get go, especially for the connection to Zürich, but developers always get the land they want to build pricy buildings to sell to rich mates.
There are 4 tracks out each way, each in its own tube. By contrast in the old station 99% of the trains go through one of two 19th century tunnels. Stuttgart is choc-full of tunnels, but that doesn't stop the crazies insisting that they're impossible to build here.
Mistake OR megaproject? Why can't it be both?
Edit: by the way, I'm curious to see what will happen when the notoriously unreliable Deutsche Bahn loses access to one of the tunnels leading to the station, or to a platform or two. This entire thing appears to be built for precision and efficiency. Yeah, good luck with that...
Was stationed near there in the 80s
I'm sure Simon Whistler is on the case.
More controversial than HS2?
Well you saw the demonstrations
$679 billion and growing.
Through its Belt and Road Initiative, China invested $679 billion on infrastructure projects in nearly 150 countries, between 2013 and 2022. These investments have meaningful economic impacts on some immediate and critical infrastructure needs for developing countries.
I understand the set backs but 31 years! Usually countries build several national infrastructure projects in that time.
I am surprised that Germany has so many beleagured projects that take so long.
Kinda hard to pay for it when you're broke 💰
Guys how many more years will it take ? 😢
Two. He literally said the opening is scheduled for 2026…
They are considering a Testing phase with a few ICE lines starting in December 2025
It's not finished yet? 😮
Ну Европа же не Россия😂😂 только Россия может сделать 20 км мост по морю за 2 года а вам до нас далеко
TBH, if the project were completed quickly, it would also be cheap.
Yep
21 billions
This projext looks pretty and impressive.. but was a pack of lies from the start. The costs were "underestimated" from the start. No-one expected it to finsh on time. The "advantages" are mininal. ALSO - not only the rock is terrible for underground construction. The platforms are all at an angle so steep that childrens prams start rolling on themselves ! There are also significantly fewer platforms than before. They SHOULD have just just copied the french TGV concept of building a new station for international fast trains just outside the city and providing a quick and frequent link. They could have spent that money on improving DB infrastcture - really needed.. instead of this vanity project.
China built 40000km of high speed rail in 15 years
Wait until the first structural issues are going to be popping up.
Probably they already did but we did not learn due to restricted information policy in China.
HS2 is surely worse...
Amazing 1st
😂😂😂 Then They Say They Will Compete China.
Dictatorships are like cheetahs.
As long as the cheetah is in the right mood and temperament, it can move faster than anything around. That sprint is however, not going to last long.
Democracies are like herds of elephants. They move slow, they need to take everyone along. But they are steady, there is a deeper wisdom behind, and can sustain longer journeys.
Because it didn't happen in our lifetimes, It is easy to forget how meteorically Germany had risen out literally out of ashes after WW2 to become the backbone of European economy despite the heavy burden of reparations.
I still prefer a slowly over-engineered building rather than a fast, crumbling one. There are enough videos of teetering skyscrapers and dilapidated new buildings in China. The biggest problem is the many court cases with many instances. This can sometimes unnecessarily prolong such projects and increase costs.
@@trappytrap405 Seeing too many Serpentza and China Observer videos?
@@trappytrap405 “crumbling one” yeah you have never been to China nor studied how they build, they lack nothing that we have, or maybe yes, bureaucracy and politicians corruptions blocking the work.
@@davidedc1 I have never been on the surface of the sun and yet I know what it looks like. There is enough footage and video evidence of construction defects. For example: to build skyscrapers you need concrete, which consists mainly of sand. And this is where the problems start, because you need coarse grains of sand for more stability. The smooth sand we know from the beach is not suitable for this. This concrete is more porous and breaks more quickly. Would you want to live in a high-rise building where even the foundations could be unsuitable? There are a lot of unnecessary standards and regulations in Germany, but I prefer everything to be double and triple checked.
When the advantage is dubious at best, it is better to leave it alone!
A megaproject that probably was a mistake.
Stuttgart 21 has become an endless money pit and a burden for everyone affected by it. I was just 6 years old when this project was approved, and decades later, we’re still waiting. Meanwhile, other countries can accomplish similar infrastructure work in weeks(Nanlong Railway Station in the south China city of Longyan was done 9 hours... in your face Germany) Where is this 'German Efficiency' everyone talks about? This seems less about efficiency and more about incompetence-or even blatant misuse of taxpayer money.
And it doesn’t stop there. Baden-Württemberg is pouring millions into campaigns like 'The Länd,' yet where’s the actual inclusion? I’ve struggled to find anyone speaking English who can assist with integration. I have a child here and no access to a doctor within 35 kilometers. And what about the 45% of my salary taken in taxes? Public transportation is less reliable than in many developing countries, and the state of services is shocking.
This isn’t the Germany people envision-without the Marshall Plan, who knows where it would stand today? For taxpayers who work hard and contribute so much, it’s time to see real accountability. Stop wasting money on failing projects and start addressing the real needs of the people.
Can be here any signs of corruption? Hmm… Of course, no. Or maybe, no. Hmm…
I'd like to know which country can achieve something similar in weeks.
@@Talon5516-tx3ih Nanlong Railway Station in the south China city of Longyan in 9 hours
Mega corrution projekt!
💰💰💰💰💰💰👺
Mistake. No, BIG mistake
Европпа еще что то строит? Деньги еще есть наверно😂😂. Но скоро деньги кончаться. Лет 5 и начнет разбегаться евросоюз😂😂
🙁🙁🙁🙁🙁🙁
Don‘t really lnow why they decided to invest money in these projects. The money for these projects should be better invested in other domains that need to be improved.
The Old Station desperately needed improvement. It was quickly following behind on every efficiency parameter. Once you test out Floor heating you never want to live back in a cave.