this is the main problem out in the whole video that one person (you) in the whole comment section has pointed out. It's astounding. The whole point of a zoner is that they excel full and mid screen but lose close up. How are you going to just eliminate that weakness by giving them a teleport? Terrible character design
@@alano2475 Not only giving them a teleport but disgusting ass buttons up close, happens in every NRS game. Cetrion, Supergirl, Doctor Fate, Deadshot, sooo many more
Factz!!! It kills me since I'm so rush down. I'm always top 50 online without zoning but I get in tournaments and get destroyed. All because everyone are master zoners with no intentions of getting in at all. So frustrating never going far in tournaments cause of this bull****.
@@leoclassics5313 Dawg fr.Im a batman main and i absolute love his rushdown,fast paced gamestyle,but having to go up against characters like Ivy,Doctor Fate,etc,and not having much options with batman really sucks...
NRS needs to understand that there’s ways to make a zoner have space control that aren’t just giving them multiple projectiles that have pushback and knockdown
Projectiles not clashing is also a problem though wether they want to admit it or not. Say johnny cage could do ex force ball here and the first would eat the projectile then the second would hit and knock down giving him time to get in. Some characters are an exception and have stuff like this in mk but in general its just not a thing. Not as much a problem in mk9 with crazy characters like kung lao just dive kicking and teleporting but became a pretty big problem IMO for all their future titles which resulted in the boring duck walk game and people hating zoners.
The announcers just keep talking about whatever because there's nothing interesting happening onscreen, even though that Johnny was losing half his life already
@@johnjohnson3390 And what of it lol ? Even Sonic who played joker had really tough problem during finals because he played against spamming cetrion this is not fun to watch or play.
That's why if they ever remaster MK9, they should definitely be toning down a few things such as frame data but keeping the freedom and combo routes and launchers that we had back in MK9.
I hate to say it, but frame data is the kind of thing that makes those crazy combos possible in MK9. Obviously there are other factors, like combo gravity and scaling, but even a frame of difference can spell the difference between a combo working and not working. If they were going to tone done somethings, I would just nerf some of the projectiles, some are too fast and Freddy’s entire move kit makes him kinda annoying to fight against.
@@kobold7964 You're right, indeed. I see what you mean. I see MK9 and MK11 as the sides of the same coin. I believe that NRS could take the best from those two games and mix it up into one game. For a future MK game, I would definitely remove some of the mechanics present in MK11 like the krushing blows above all. I think they limit combo potential too much. I would also bring neutral jump punching back. That alone opens the door for more combo creativity. I think they should get rid of variations too. Unless they put more work into them. As for frame data, I can see there are a lot of things done right in MK11. Projectiles should definitely have more recovery and certain moves should be much more punishable like teleports. Of course, one thing is that we fans envision and another one is what NRS wants to do. The coin needs to be flipped in our favor.
@@assassin71333 there is no way he can compete with cetrions keep away. Not to mention crushing blows if she gets them off. She also has a ton of 50/50s. Most of Freddie's attacks can be avoided by her fire attack because she jumps up.
As an NRS player, when I went to college and started playing other fighting games in the local fighting game club, everyone was awestruck at how good I was at dealing with zoning. Then I explained Kenshi, Zodd, Sinestro, Starfire, Doctor Fate, Cetrion, and they understood.
The worst part is, they give the best counterzone to the zoner's themselves like Shang tsung's shake in mk11 or Jade's purple shadow, even though they are both zoners
The sickest thing about zoners is that in a game with a rich variety of archetypes, there will always be a character who is able to put immense pressure on them or get around them. You simply cannot play a zoner into a Smoke for example, if he understands the game, you're already dead. There was something beautiful about a fighting game that just had several different 'flavors' of character who all felt _really busted_ but in _their specific_ way. That's what made it fun, so even though the game absolutely was wild as hell balance-wise, there kind of was something for everyone.
i dont like moves that completely shut down an archetype. zoners should be able to play around anti zoning tools too, either by making them limited in use or can be baited out. bb i think does it well and neutral become more varied than in this game.
Overall it was a losing matchup for Johnny (4-6 I'd say) but Johnny could definitely wreck Freddy once he got up close. Also all the stages in MK9 were different lengths so that factored into how well characters could zone or close distance. Like the Pit and Hell stages were the shortest and the Rooftop stages were the longest. So sometimes you'd see counterpicking with stages as well depending on if you're playing a rushdown or zoning character. Goro's Lair was longer than average so that also factored into the matchup.
Agreed! This was one of the biggest things in mk9. People would forgo their character swap option after a loss to go for a stage swap instead a lot of the time.
The reason people hate zoning is that it causes a lack of engagement on the receiving end. Even vs a mix up character up close, you can try to do something to fight back. At a large distance it doesn't happen. Then you have NRS' horrible ideas. Projectiles/tools that can attack anywhere on screen is one of them. Massive push back and chip is another. I knew from the first week of MK11 that Certion was going to be a problem with her boulder. Does a good chunk of chip, has a KB tied to the aerial version, AND does heavy push back on block. The heavy push back almost punishes the receiver for blocking it. That's nonsense. Insane chip damage is the same. What gets me is that you can easily see that NRS understands strengths and weaknesses. Knee Cappin ducking highs but being a mid. Sindel's low scream being a low but cannot knockdown unless it's an AMPed. Yet they refuse to follow this balance idea with everything.
you can interact with zoners though. just jumping or advancing forward already affect the state of game i think. with rushdown oki they can also keep you blocking and guessing mixups forever there is even less you can do in some situations
@@dontbeaclown96 Yea bro, you cant even flawless block while being bombarded by 5 different projectiles on 200ms, scared shitless of the fullscreen fb, or too scared to try to throw stg back cuz you get punished by the instant teleport?
@@sunthi9619 Hell, I used to play HFTF and Vanilla Ice's oki is far scarier than any zoning Kakyoin can dish out, and Kak is a way stronger character. To my knowledge, Ice is the only character in the game with a setup that has absolutely zero defense against it. It is disgusting.
@@finalboss3893 his air fireball is really slow and his teleport is negative. The only true zoning option he has is vtrigger + vskill floating ball or whatever and u can still jump over it very easily cause its also very slow. Dhalsin is not even top tier.
@@GriffithDidNothingWrong75 yeah i hate playing as him in sf4 he didn't even have an anti-air and if you have a jumpy opponent you lose a lot of ur zoning
Zoning is a part of fighting game guys. Should it be balanced? Yes. But trying to get rid of it completely out one it down to where it’s useless is moronic. You gotta support all fighting styles to add depth to your game. Maybe I’m tripping tho.
You not trippin. The constant crying about zoning because most of the playerbase refuses to learn how to deal with it is annoying. Everybody doesn't wanna be mixed by rushdown characters either, but nobody cries about that.
@@smoothsavage2870 No one wants to come back home from a long ass 9-5 just to hop online and chase zoners all night. we know how to deal with them but its simply not fun at ALLL. this is why nrs games are dying and people are going to tekken with 0 zoning .
@@getyadoughup6012 The games clearly aren't dying seeing that all of them except for probably MK9 and Injustice 1 still have significant playerbases. If you don't like dealing with zoners, quit the match. Why do y'all make it so hard? Lol. I don't see why you would wanna play pvp games after a hard day of work anyway since in a lot of situations it can be rage inducing. I'd rather save that stuff for the weekend. Go play a fun single player game after work or something.
Zoning and projectiles should do little to no chip damage in MK anymore. From my amount of experience, zoning is often the lowest effort and highest yield playstyle in NRS titles, and this should not be the case. If they want to keep us out, they should have to REALLY work for it and be strategic. If they removed chip on projectiles like this, then they would realize all the Freddies, Jades, Cetrions etc can't just walk back and turtle up and continue to rack up low effort damage. Projectiles should also collide and cancel unless enhanced, and as much as I don't like SF, I think they do it right by having projectiles move slower but have much larger hitboxes as spacing tools and combo extenders as opposed to damage damage damage. Do I think premier zoners have a place? Yes. But, I feel that if zoning is their whole game plan, that's all they should have. If you manage to make it through the Bullet Hell level that is the stage, their ass should be grass. No questions about it. I'm also sick of seeing the argument that "nobody knows how to deal with it, git gud". The majority of us DO know how. Slow and steady wins the race. But the issue with this is the fact that the player who isn't zoning has to do the Fitness Gram Pacer Test in order to make it through the trenches, while the other guys has to put little to no effort in doing so, all while having multiple escape options. Not to mention that in the online era of the FGC, a lot of these projectiles are pretty fast and non-telegraphed. So, they're sometimes just as unreactable the F2 50/50. Call me a pussy, idc. I just think the design of zoning in the NRS era has been very lackluster to say the least.
even in rushdown heavy games projectile always do the most damage since its harder to open people up and it forces blocker to do something instead of just blocking from fullscreen just chilling with life lead. meanwhile rushdown character can just blow them up once they get in so they do much less chip
Removing chip damage alone would absolutely buttfuck all zoners and no one would play them. Plus imagine getting hit like one time and then you have to wait out the entire round timer because you can't even die fast enough to get to the next fight. Damage numbers should be the last thing you're looking at, change what a move does, when you can use it, and the reward for using it before you start editing damage values.
There's also the matter that NRS games are the only mainstream fighters where you cannot consistently jump over projectiles. There needs to be more options besides teleport and slowly inching your way up while neutral ducking (which leaves you open to all the damn near fullscreen, mid-hitting fuck neutral moves that exist in NRS titles)
I like how everyone in this comment section forgot the Cage player had a chance to counter pick. Could've brought kabal, smoke, any vortex character, but choose the bad match up lmao
Exactly, they think someone walking back and throwing projectiles is zoning. No, zoning is using your projectiles and normals in neutral as space control to open up your opponent for punishes, but most the community behind mk11 are new players who never played any other titles anyway, that's why their so soft and want anything and everything that seems broken to them banned, because don't lose to it, say it's broken, and don't lab it. They base their skill off how much fun their having then actually looking at their gameplay.
I mean as long as you're controlling the screen it pretty much fits the description, regardless of how much effort it takes you. If the other guy just eats my fireballs nonstop I'm not putting in the energy for setups.
I think the speed and controls (I guess breakers, movement and stuff factor into this section as well) just really dont facilitate japanese fighting game concepts as well as they could.. I felt this a bit even with injustice. I've obviously had matches vs Freddy but dang that was 😬
I actually enjoyed playing as freddy in this game but I didn't do this zoning crap. He can teleport off of almost every move so you can pressure the fuck out of your opponent and keep them guessing.
@@datniggathatsbuiltdifferen709 mk9 was good game but tbh i prefer roster to be overall underwhelming then broken. Broken means that this character has something that they shouldn't. Plus some characters still dominate even when everyone is broken.
The thing is though. If johnny got in and made him block one move. This went the same way just for curbo. As a pressure mix up style player i hate zoning with a passion. But just because Freddy was fucking busted does not mean johnny was not also fucking busted
Zoning is fine (and as much as some don't like it, it is a core part of fighting games) but when high level gameplay devolves into spam zoning, there's a problem.
It’s cause nothings really changed jade you can’t zone back and cetrion has a teleport ya this is worse but in other games this wouldn’t even be allowed
I'll never be upset at watching an MK9 Johnny be bullied lol. Johnny's playstyle is so extremely overagressive that it'll never hurt to see him in the same position.
Because people got so much PTSD from Cetrion that they hate everything reminding them of zoning, even when robocop is really balanced and I always enjoy playing against him
@@Zeroakafreddyiscool I am but at the same time I was MK11 tourneys again and just saw someone as Jacqui kept doing this one blue fireball move on the ground. I'm not that good with fighting games anymore since I stopped since last year.
Fighting game should prioritize dealing damage with combos, not single hit projectiles. Is it okay to combo into your projectile, take your turn back with a projectile or finish the opponent with a projectile? Yes. Should you deal most of your damage with projectile? No. This is a fighting game, not a first person shooter. If this game is about zoning then all character should be good at it- not just Jade and Cetrion. But anyways, just my opinion
Zoning characters like Cetrion are awful characters because they have the tools to do well up close and far away; then has a teleport just to make things “better”. Dr.Fate is probably the only zoner NRS has developed that I will give props to. He fits the perfect description for a zoner, without being to overpowered.
![Finesse2Tymes - Pretty Ricky [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/xIoP_mhYRT0/mqdefault.jpg)
Ah yes a zoner with teleport, what could go wrong
I can think of nothing
this is the main problem out in the whole video that one person (you) in the whole comment section has pointed out. It's astounding.
The whole point of a zoner is that they excel full and mid screen but lose close up. How are you going to just eliminate that weakness by giving them a teleport? Terrible character design
@@alano2475 Nailed it. At least NRS learned their lesson and nev...*traumatizing Cetrion noises*
@@formless_dev Don’t forget Deadshot and Starfire in Injustice 2
@@alano2475 Not only giving them a teleport but disgusting ass buttons up close, happens in every NRS game. Cetrion, Supergirl, Doctor Fate, Deadshot, sooo many more
NRS formula: Make 3 to 4 zoners with insanely stupid options, then make 25 other characters who have no options against the zoning.
Factz!!! It kills me since I'm so rush down. I'm always top 50 online without zoning but I get in tournaments and get destroyed. All because everyone are master zoners with no intentions of getting in at all. So frustrating never going far in tournaments cause of this bull****.
@@leoclassics5313 Dawg fr.Im a batman main and i absolute love his rushdown,fast paced gamestyle,but having to go up against characters like Ivy,Doctor Fate,etc,and not having much options with batman really sucks...
@@leoclassics5313 scrub quotes lmao play a better series
@@mastermadeiteasy8517 or..they can just give character counters to zoning
@@metr010 can't expect NRS to be competent when it comes to fighters.
I’m imagining Goro is trying not to giggle while watching this
😐
Doubt that Goro would try not to anything
?
@@buckshots2dabrain859because it's goro's lair? Joke went right over your head
NRS needs to understand that there’s ways to make a zoner have space control that aren’t just giving them multiple projectiles that have pushback and knockdown
exactly. skarlet for a example is a balanced zoner IMO.
@@getyadoughup6012 so was cyborg
Projectiles not clashing is also a problem though wether they want to admit it or not. Say johnny cage could do ex force ball here and the first would eat the projectile then the second would hit and knock down giving him time to get in. Some characters are an exception and have stuff like this in mk but in general its just not a thing. Not as much a problem in mk9 with crazy characters like kung lao just dive kicking and teleporting but became a pretty big problem IMO for all their future titles which resulted in the boring duck walk game and people hating zoners.
Honestly I wish they made more zoners like her. It’s actually fun to play against a good scarlet online
“There are ways”
Doesn’t/can’t explain them.
The announcers just keep talking about whatever because there's nothing interesting happening onscreen, even though that Johnny was losing half his life already
“He called me a pedophile, I mean he’s not wrong, but he doesn’t have any evidence.”
no wonder m2dave thinks zoning is weak in mk11, he might actually have to play the game once in a while.
OOOOOO
Thank god NRS learned not to give zoners a safe teleport away and safe pressure and safe neutral reset, after MK9.
Oh hi Cetrion
Cetrion has the slowest projectile in the game
@@johnjohnson3390 And what of it lol ? Even Sonic who played joker had really tough problem during finals because he played against spamming cetrion this is not fun to watch or play.
@@johnjohnson3390 Doesn’t matter how slow it is when her projectiles have crazy pushback. 2 steps forward 5 steps back.
At least cetrion's leaves her close so you can pressure her. Unless she spends a bar.
@@johnjohnson3390 But she has 5 of them, all with huge pushback on block.
That's why if they ever remaster MK9, they should definitely be toning down a few things such as frame data but keeping the freedom and combo routes and launchers that we had back in MK9.
I hate to say it, but frame data is the kind of thing that makes those crazy combos possible in MK9. Obviously there are other factors, like combo gravity and scaling, but even a frame of difference can spell the difference between a combo working and not working. If they were going to tone done somethings, I would just nerf some of the projectiles, some are too fast and Freddy’s entire move kit makes him kinda annoying to fight against.
@yuuki senpai MK9 with MK11 graphics would be perfect.
Then you'd kill the fun
@@kobold7964 You're right, indeed. I see what you mean. I see MK9 and MK11 as the sides of the same coin. I believe that NRS could take the best from those two games and mix it up into one game. For a future MK game, I would definitely remove some of the mechanics present in MK11 like the krushing blows above all. I think they limit combo potential too much. I would also bring neutral jump punching back. That alone opens the door for more combo creativity. I think they should get rid of variations too. Unless they put more work into them. As for frame data, I can see there are a lot of things done right in MK11. Projectiles should definitely have more recovery and certain moves should be much more punishable like teleports. Of course, one thing is that we fans envision and another one is what NRS wants to do. The coin needs to be flipped in our favor.
I liked the rush down style of mkx.
Why are they still giving zoning characters a teleport?
NRS has no idea how to make a fighting game lmao. It’s only acceptable to give zoners a TP if they’re weak in other areas.
@@KARS215 if they listened to the community I don't think it would be much bullshit IMO
@@GoSpawn_ I believe the same thing lol.
@@GoSpawn_ yeah
@@KARS215 the know but they don't want to do it
M2dave in his prime lol
No, you never saw tombstone drop M2Dave
@@Mercsin Deception days lmao
He died as he lived, running away
LMAO IMAGINE CERTION VS FREDDY
Every match goes to time.
That matchup would be 7-3 considering the games
Cetrion would body him.
Nah I think Freddy will
@@assassin71333 there is no way he can compete with cetrions keep away. Not to mention crushing blows if she gets them off. She also has a ton of 50/50s. Most of Freddie's attacks can be avoided by her fire attack because she jumps up.
As an NRS player, when I went to college and started playing other fighting games in the local fighting game club, everyone was awestruck at how good I was at dealing with zoning. Then I explained Kenshi, Zodd, Sinestro, Starfire, Doctor Fate, Cetrion, and they understood.
I just will never understand why NRS gives zoning characters a teleport.
You can make them balanced. Look at Dalshim from Street Fighter, for example, or with a less known fighter, Mayura in Spectral vs Generation.
Peacock from Skullgirls would ugly laugh at this comment.
Its so the match can be more one-sided.
Imma put it like this Shang and Cetrion are natural zoners and canonically can teleport soooo
Zoning wouldn't be such an issue if projectiles collided.
I’ve been saying this for 10 years. It’s safe to say they’re never doing that lol.
@@KARS215 Yeah it makes too much sense. What do we know, we only play their games 😂
@@mrnozchalazt7199 lmao a lot of us are better players than the devs and understand how fighting games work/flow.
@@mrnozchalazt7199 and it’s a part of almost every other fighting game franchise
@@KARS215 ikr when they demonstrate characters before they come out its horrific how trash they are
NRS, the fighting game developer that just insists on giving zoners away-teleports and godlike backdashes in a 2D fighting game. brilliant
good thing smoke exists in this game
Bad thing smoke doesn't exist in mk11
Good Skadi btw
If this version of M2Dave went against Dittle in that money match, he'd be calling MK9 a man's game instead of MKX lol.
The worst part is, they give the best counterzone to the zoner's themselves like Shang tsung's shake in mk11 or Jade's purple shadow, even though they are both zoners
Dave was a beast in mk9, never seen him play any other NRS game after this one, but he definitely had Freddy mastered
he was crying because zoner is dead after mk9
He was a good general zod player in injustice, never really did much other than be an online warrior though.
@@thechris312 yeah right i remember that , pig of the hut was got a great zod at tournament too
Because he got exposed as a fraud once they made MKX more rushdown oriented.
@@oscarcaballero5670 neutering a playstyle makes him a fraud?
Imagine playing like that in the arcade against random people? 👊
Well this is literally a nightmare, so its fair to asume Freddy is in control.
“What type of fighter will Freddy be hmmm, maybe a berserker type with his claw? Ooh or maybe a setup character with some cool dream stuff!?”
NRS: ….
The sickest thing about zoners is that in a game with a rich variety of archetypes, there will always be a character who is able to put immense pressure on them or get around them. You simply cannot play a zoner into a Smoke for example, if he understands the game, you're already dead. There was something beautiful about a fighting game that just had several different 'flavors' of character who all felt _really busted_ but in _their specific_ way. That's what made it fun, so even though the game absolutely was wild as hell balance-wise, there kind of was something for everyone.
i dont like moves that completely shut down an archetype. zoners should be able to play around anti zoning tools too, either by making them limited in use or can be baited out. bb i think does it well and neutral become more varied than in this game.
@@sunthi9619 life aint fair. Why should you expect perfect balance from a game
@@brandonwilliams3777 why are you comparing real life with a videogame?
@@me-lx2wt do you not use your real life to play the video game, genius?
@@brandonwilliams3777 I think I just lost brain cells from reading that shit
Overall it was a losing matchup for Johnny (4-6 I'd say) but Johnny could definitely wreck Freddy once he got up close. Also all the stages in MK9 were different lengths so that factored into how well characters could zone or close distance. Like the Pit and Hell stages were the shortest and the Rooftop stages were the longest. So sometimes you'd see counterpicking with stages as well depending on if you're playing a rushdown or zoning character. Goro's Lair was longer than average so that also factored into the matchup.
Agreed! This was one of the biggest things in mk9. People would forgo their character swap option after a loss to go for a stage swap instead a lot of the time.
"Zoning is fine. It's just part of the game. Everyone has to deal with it like the rest of us."
Random quote guy
I mean it's true
- Sun Tzu
Yeah but where is the lie?
Smoke has entered the chat
The reason people hate zoning is that it causes a lack of engagement on the receiving end. Even vs a mix up character up close, you can try to do something to fight back. At a large distance it doesn't happen. Then you have NRS' horrible ideas. Projectiles/tools that can attack anywhere on screen is one of them. Massive push back and chip is another. I knew from the first week of MK11 that Certion was going to be a problem with her boulder. Does a good chunk of chip, has a KB tied to the aerial version, AND does heavy push back on block. The heavy push back almost punishes the receiver for blocking it. That's nonsense.
Insane chip damage is the same. What gets me is that you can easily see that NRS understands strengths and weaknesses. Knee Cappin ducking highs but being a mid. Sindel's low scream being a low but cannot knockdown unless it's an AMPed. Yet they refuse to follow this balance idea with everything.
I mean cetrions Boulder is easy to flawless block and has no pushback and does no chip if you flawless block it.
@@user-iw6xl8vj1f
lmaooo "easy to flawless block"
you can interact with zoners though. just jumping or advancing forward already affect the state of game i think. with rushdown oki they can also keep you blocking and guessing mixups forever there is even less you can do in some situations
@@dontbeaclown96 Yea bro, you cant even flawless block while being bombarded by 5 different projectiles on 200ms, scared shitless of the fullscreen fb, or too scared to try to throw stg back cuz you get punished by the instant teleport?
@@sunthi9619 Hell, I used to play HFTF and Vanilla Ice's oki is far scarier than any zoning Kakyoin can dish out, and Kak is a way stronger character. To my knowledge, Ice is the only character in the game with a setup that has absolutely zero defense against it. It is disgusting.
Giving teleport to zoners, NRS pinnacle of game design right there.
doesnt dhalsim have a teleport
@@finalboss3893 his air fireball is really slow and his teleport is negative.
The only true zoning option he has is vtrigger + vskill floating ball or whatever and u can still jump over it very easily cause its also very slow.
Dhalsin is not even top tier.
@@GriffithDidNothingWrong75 yeah i hate playing as him in sf4 he didn't even have an anti-air and if you have a jumpy opponent you lose a lot of ur zoning
Zoning is a part of fighting game guys. Should it be balanced? Yes. But trying to get rid of it completely out one it down to where it’s useless is moronic. You gotta support all fighting styles to add depth to your game. Maybe I’m tripping tho.
You not trippin. The constant crying about zoning because most of the playerbase refuses to learn how to deal with it is annoying. Everybody doesn't wanna be mixed by rushdown characters either, but nobody cries about that.
@@smoothsavage2870 No one wants to come back home from a long ass 9-5 just to hop online and chase zoners all night. we know how to deal with them but its simply not fun at ALLL. this is why nrs games are dying and people are going to tekken with 0 zoning .
@@getyadoughup6012 The games clearly aren't dying seeing that all of them except for probably MK9 and Injustice 1 still have significant playerbases. If you don't like dealing with zoners, quit the match. Why do y'all make it so hard? Lol. I don't see why you would wanna play pvp games after a hard day of work anyway since in a lot of situations it can be rage inducing. I'd rather save that stuff for the weekend. Go play a fun single player game after work or something.
@@smoothsavage2870 Jesus I see this shill everywhere
@@manuelsilva3365 Jesus i see this hater everywhere.
Zoning and projectiles should do little to no chip damage in MK anymore. From my amount of experience, zoning is often the lowest effort and highest yield playstyle in NRS titles, and this should not be the case. If they want to keep us out, they should have to REALLY work for it and be strategic. If they removed chip on projectiles like this, then they would realize all the Freddies, Jades, Cetrions etc can't just walk back and turtle up and continue to rack up low effort damage. Projectiles should also collide and cancel unless enhanced, and as much as I don't like SF, I think they do it right by having projectiles move slower but have much larger hitboxes as spacing tools and combo extenders as opposed to damage damage damage.
Do I think premier zoners have a place? Yes. But, I feel that if zoning is their whole game plan, that's all they should have. If you manage to make it through the Bullet Hell level that is the stage, their ass should be grass. No questions about it.
I'm also sick of seeing the argument that "nobody knows how to deal with it, git gud". The majority of us DO know how. Slow and steady wins the race. But the issue with this is the fact that the player who isn't zoning has to do the Fitness Gram Pacer Test in order to make it through the trenches, while the other guys has to put little to no effort in doing so, all while having multiple escape options. Not to mention that in the online era of the FGC, a lot of these projectiles are pretty fast and non-telegraphed. So, they're sometimes just as unreactable the F2 50/50.
Call me a pussy, idc. I just think the design of zoning in the NRS era has been very lackluster to say the least.
even in rushdown heavy games projectile always do the most damage since its harder to open people up and it forces blocker to do something instead of just blocking from fullscreen just chilling with life lead. meanwhile rushdown character can just blow them up once they get in so they do much less chip
Removing chip damage alone would absolutely buttfuck all zoners and no one would play them. Plus imagine getting hit like one time and then you have to wait out the entire round timer because you can't even die fast enough to get to the next fight. Damage numbers should be the last thing you're looking at, change what a move does, when you can use it, and the reward for using it before you start editing damage values.
There's also the matter that NRS games are the only mainstream fighters where you cannot consistently jump over projectiles. There needs to be more options besides teleport and slowly inching your way up while neutral ducking (which leaves you open to all the damn near fullscreen, mid-hitting fuck neutral moves that exist in NRS titles)
I like how everyone in this comment section forgot the Cage player had a chance to counter pick. Could've brought kabal, smoke, any vortex character, but choose the bad match up lmao
You make an amazing point friend
Right!!!???
All mk9 characters were broken in one way so it kinda balanced it out
Jesus, and I thought playing against Deadshot was a pain in the ass
Nah I hated aquaman more before he could actually combo and extend combo his ground tentacle
@@jasonyang6150 i will take that over a shitty connection doomsday any day of the week.
Poor Johnny...Now he can't spam his bs f3333333333333333333333333333333333333 string
Wow I didn't even know Curbo has been in the scene for THAT LONG
Seeing this i'm now wondering why dave doesn't play cetrion 😂
That's why the call him a NIGHTMARE ON MK STREET 😂😂
"Is that a flawless???" Sums up zoning in NRS. Because unlike in MK9, we don't have smoke to punish every projectile you throw.
Sub Zero with and without amp ice ball as well as ANY teleport character punishes zoning from pretty much any range.
"BUT DUDE ITS NOT HYYPPPPEEEEEEEEE"
*Sonic Fox zones*
"OMG HYYYPPPPEEEEEE"
Most NRS players don't even know what zoning means. They think turtling and spamming projectiles is zoning.
Exactly, they think someone walking back and throwing projectiles is zoning. No, zoning is using your projectiles and normals in neutral as space control to open up your opponent for punishes, but most the community behind mk11 are new players who never played any other titles anyway, that's why their so soft and want anything and everything that seems broken to them banned, because don't lose to it, say it's broken, and don't lab it. They base their skill off how much fun their having then actually looking at their gameplay.
@@user-iw6xl8vj1f Well said. I've been playing MK and FGs in general since '93.
*as expected of L, that's exactly right!*
@@user-iw6xl8vj1f
lmao we have a spammer right here.
I mean as long as you're controlling the screen it pretty much fits the description, regardless of how much effort it takes you. If the other guy just eats my fireballs nonstop I'm not putting in the energy for setups.
I hated watching every second of this and damn near choked on my uvula from gagging too hard
And thus, SMOKE was born
And literally destroyed every zoning character.
I think the speed and controls (I guess breakers, movement and stuff factor into this section as well) just really dont facilitate japanese fighting game concepts as well as they could.. I felt this a bit even with injustice. I've obviously had matches vs Freddy but dang that was 😬
Glacius from Killer Instinct is an amazing zoner, this is just embarrassing
Glacier’s like a Returnal boss.
@@Alex_Logan22 killer instinct bruh
@@dagoss1
No shit, I was referring to his numerous projectiles covering the screen like a Returnal boss.
@@Alex_Logan22 never played it 🤷♂️
Tekken players: projectiles?
*_LAUGHS IN SIDESTEP_*
“Very dominant performance” lmaoo
To be fair i wouldn't want to be anywhere near johnny with all his frame trap plus strings in this game either lol
Remember how dumb deadshot was on release? No recovery on his gunshots and he could fight well up close. Pure vomit!
They learned nothing from death stroke lol
"you can see how he's buffering moves" LOL
Damn M2Dave if u dont play mk11 i want these kinda fights
Yooo and the tbag m2dave i gotta suck that shit up bro!! Ima fan and i hated mk9
I just watched Freddy Krueger t-bag Johnny Cage man
I actually enjoyed playing as freddy in this game but I didn't do this zoning crap. He can teleport off of almost every move so you can pressure the fuck out of your opponent and keep them guessing.
He ain’t got no right to complain, he’s playing johnny in MK9
A counter pick is a counter pick, everyone has access to the same characters.
So if one character is god-like and unstoppable, it is okay?
@@uglyl560 well every character in MK9 was broken or busted in some way so..
@@datniggathatsbuiltdifferen709 mk9 was good game but tbh i prefer roster to be overall underwhelming then broken. Broken means that this character has something that they shouldn't. Plus some characters still dominate even when everyone is broken.
@@uglyl560
Yes cause both players can still use em. A roster doesn't have to be balanced for the game to be fair.
@@Alex_Logan22 then everybody uses the same character which is boring.
The thing is though. If johnny got in and made him block one move. This went the same way just for curbo. As a pressure mix up style player i hate zoning with a passion. But just because Freddy was fucking busted does not mean johnny was not also fucking busted
Zoning is fine (and as much as some don't like it, it is a core part of fighting games) but when high level gameplay devolves into spam zoning, there's a problem.
"Wow"
"interesting"
"wow"
And people actually complain about cetrion and jade.🤣
It’s cause nothings really changed jade you can’t zone back and cetrion has a teleport ya this is worse but in other games this wouldn’t even be allowed
@@wildchild6583 you must don't play anime games. Some anime games has crazy zoning.
@@dec2567 what does anime games have to do w mk9 & mk11
@@dec2567 what anime games has strong zoning?
@@dec2567 I’m talking about tekken,injustice,mk,street fighter games like these not anime game
Nrs need to consider projectile collisions like every other fighting game lol
Every character needs a smoke parry
nooooooo
I like how the announcers completely ignore the T-bags and calls this "a very dominant performance" SMH
To be fair Curbo was seen as an mk villain. He would attempt to babality anyone he played even in tournament.
Dave should've played like this when he fought dittle
Didnt notice at first but freddy t bagged him lol
This Johnny cage just wasn’t good. He was patient but he took zero risks when he got up close
the T-bag as well...
I'll never be upset at watching an MK9 Johnny be bullied lol. Johnny's playstyle is so extremely overagressive that it'll never hurt to see him in the same position.
Basically an online match vs a character with zoning tools that youre not exactly sure about how to beat
I just don’t understand why people expect me to play Robocop up close and personal lol.
Because people got so much PTSD from Cetrion that they hate everything reminding them of zoning, even when robocop is really balanced and I always enjoy playing against him
Welcome to the online experience.
This is why I hate Injustice 2 sometimes lol but then again I main Batman so I should be quite.
*Injustice 2 gameplay flashbacks*
NRS: Hates Zoning
MK11: Zoning Required
I mean it was like zoning vs poking.
i prefer poking its called Mortal Kombat Not Mortal Zoning
Seems fun to play against and totally not annoying
Literally 90% of mk 11
It’s just cetrion
Everyone else has weak zoning
Maybe scarlet is honorable mention
It's really not lol
@@Zeroakafreddyiscool bruh Jacqui.
@@arsenal4739 you are joking if you are calling Jacqui a zoner....
@@Zeroakafreddyiscool I am but at the same time I was MK11 tourneys again and just saw someone as Jacqui kept doing this one blue fireball move on the ground. I'm not that good with fighting games anymore since I stopped since last year.
Can we get mk11 Cetrion vs this mk9 Freddy
Don't forget how plus Johnny was and it was never your turn.
Legendary performance by m2dave
That matchup looks like a nightmare.
🤣
This was an 8-2 match up. 7-3 if you played it perfectly
@@Dreams_of_Sleep I’d believe it.
@@Dreams_of_Sleep the 3 games would make you believe it couldnt be that way though. This is a hard stomp whoever wins imo
Such a dishonorable way to win
I’m a proud zoner but that’s literally just game breaking
Nah.
This looks really tame compared to uni hilda
Every dlc character feels like they're a zoner
They should be niche not super prevalent in a roster.
NDR si le van a hacer un pj zoning pues no le pongan teleport por Dios es tan dificil hacer eso 😔😓
If you want to play a fun fighting game where full screen zoning isn’t a problem play Killer instinct for Xbox one.
johnny's poor shins
Like if Johnny wasn't broken as shit too
Zoning wouldn’t be nearly as annoying if you couldn’t die from chip damage
This dude really teabagged at 0:15
Looks like Cetrion with less moves.
Not only is Dave annoying on the podcast but look how he plays🤦♂️ lol says it all
its just like going to the barber u look for the guy who always has a fresh cut every week or 2...And dave is not that guy so dont go there
@@GoSpawn_ lol what u talkin about🤦♂️ horrible analogy wipe that m2 nut from ya mouf
Lmao just jump
This is why you play smoke and maybe sektor
Good thing my favorite character is Raiden.
Mortal Kombat 11 in a nutshell
Fighting game should prioritize dealing damage with combos, not single hit projectiles. Is it okay to combo into your projectile, take your turn back with a projectile or finish the opponent with a projectile? Yes. Should you deal most of your damage with projectile? No. This is a fighting game, not a first person shooter.
If this game is about zoning then all character should be good at it- not just Jade and Cetrion. But anyways, just my opinion
I agree
Now this i agree with
There's this thing called "archetypes"...
@@smoothsavage2870 yes but when the “zoner” archetypes is more powerful than everyone else…we have a problem
@@finntran1672 There's like ONE zoner that's considered a top tier though....
Sumed up pretty well lol
Zoning characters like Cetrion are awful characters because they have the tools to do well up close and far away; then has a teleport just to make things “better”. Dr.Fate is probably the only zoner NRS has developed that I will give props to. He fits the perfect description for a zoner, without being to overpowered.
How can other games make zoning look cool but NRS makes it look boring?
Hell yeah Brady jumping on the reo bandwagon with the vids
Here's how to solve the zoning problem:
*Spamming attacks can only be used during combos.*
Here we go, nice and easy, pretty simple.
That would completely obliterate the neutral game. You should be hired at NRS.
PTSD.
Freddy was so fun