Incredible! Matt I feel soo connected to your story. My kids & ex-wife could not accept who I am, what I believe. They have made that clear. Now after 20+ years 1 son has not gone along with things in the church and more fully understands. My 4 other kids & 17 grandkids will tolerate me as long as I keep my true self hidden from them. The pain I have suffered with the lost of family has been horrific. Your story has greatly touched me & tonight I feel some comfort. Thank you. I wish you lived close by. I am sure we could be great friends because in many ways we have experienced life similarly. Thank you for going on Mormon stories and sharing your story. I am eager to hear of the next two parts. You seem like a phenomenal man. 10/3/22 Johnny
Matt's story was one I could relate to. When I left the church in 2010 I was lucky enough to have a brother and one cousin who preceded my exit. I am so sorry Matt didn't have that support. I can relate to his saying multiple times that he realized that he didn't live in the world he thought he did. I felt the same as if I was some unfortunate alien plopped down into a Mormon family and therein began my confusion, self-sacrifice, and psychological suffering.
My heart breaks for these men and what they went through. They were so brave to share and to leave such a strong influence in their lives. I hope the best for them.
I respect you for what you believe. As a former life-long member of a non-denominational church, it was difficult for me to leave them, too. I still have relatives who are members of the non-LDS faith, and they are still very upset with me for abandoning everything they believe. Stay strong!
Two brave men! Hats off to both of them but I always get disheartened when someone still remains religious after these discoveries and the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Awesome stories, John! Keep up the great work!
You're so right and I may as well have said "I got my diaper changed therefore I went hiking on my 30th birthday." I made a comment that excluded all the other information that led to my disheartening and conclusions embraced now. On its face, no doubt a non sequitur, friend. Simply didn't have the time or will to fill in the blanks and for that, I am wrong and you're 100% correct. Next time, I'll make the effort to or at least be conscious of attaching footnotes. ;-)
Everyone is on a journey. This is just where these gentlemen are at this point in time. Maybe they're here for a long time or maybe they will be moving on rather quickly. They don't even know where their faith journey will end.
How very painful. But, how very honest. The day I stopped allowing the catholic church to control me is, I believe, the day I first started living. There was plenty of control, shame and guilt, but not the level of pervasive presence as in the Mormon church. There is so much unnecessary pain inflicted by religion. To thine own self be true. Being your authentic self is a precious gift you give to your children. It's honest. And, when they go off to college and experience the real world, they will come to you when they have a faith crisis.
I remember when I was young, I believed that bishops with their mantle would have great "Holy Ghost" promptings and would be able to help the members of their ward to the utmost. It didn't take long to learn that it doesn't work that way. Sometimes bishops feel that their "gift of discernment" is attributing to you a negative quality when in reality it was some prejudice that set them against you. Some of my experiences with bishops were very good, so I am not putting them down. But the bishops with prejudices that for some reason didn't like you and treated you suspiciously can quickly make you realize that bishops really are "just a guy" with no special mantle, no gift of discernment, and no Holy Ghost promptings.
+cuinn837 And the so called "Prophet" had no divine guidance when Mark Hoffman duped him into paying (reportedly around $900,000.00) for his forged documents. The Emperor has no clothes...... but I guess a lifetime of indoctrination can keep people from seeing reality.
At the time the Hoffman affair happened, I could not bear to believe that the church was false and found some way to rationalize what had happened. Too bad, but I was a young convert and very idealistic. It took until I was older and not so idealistic anymore. Then the internet era was here and I found hordes of evidence that the church was a crock. They've made a mess of peoples' lives with their claims about how the Holy Ghost works.
+cuinn837 yes we must remember that no matter the divine calling or divine gifts they are men subject to the deception of flesh and ego they like all of us are on the way of the roses to golgotha to crucify the flesh if we stray we risk falling away this is seen even in the old testament
+Rich Allen "no matter the divine calling or divine gifts" - They have chosen to undertake a task. Given the trust placed in them by members of a ward, there is something sacred about the task, regardless of how we both might feel about whether "the church is true" (you might say it is, I'd say it isn't). If they do so with love and kindness perhaps one might say they are acting in a "divine" manner, no matter whether the church is true or not (in a Christian sense of this, God is love and spirit, after all). If they do so with the prejudice described by cuinn837 there is nothing divine about their calling or actions.
In my experience, most Bishops have no divine gift. There are a few Bishops who do stand out with spiritual gifts, but they would have had the same in another church. In my opinion, there is nothing about Mormonism that procures God's favor. God reaches out to some members with spiritual gifts because of their great faith in Christ.
Religion teaches discipline, I am not speaking about cults, Christians, normally christians are good moral people and are also achievers the Bible teaches to excel in whatever you do and use your God given talents. Humanism does not teach the difference between good and evil for that is a God concept, they have emotional laws if it feels good it is good, and humanist have no problem eliminating populations for they see human as the human specie...Humanist will destroy the planet and create chaos it create a law less society and does NOT bring people together that is only a short temporary thing.... The only thing that can bring people together is faith in Jesus Christ...... and be Born Again....
1. Religion teaches discipline... to an unfounded and unnecessary law which, I would argue by the way, is NOT the most moral model a person could live by in their life. It raises people's hopes in things that can't be known and builds an entire coercive world view around it. It denies the evidence that the universe doesn't spoon feed us some ultimate purpose or law to live by or some ultimate meaning to grasp on to. WE are responsible to put meaning and order into our own lives. Let me guess. You question at this point is: what reason do we have to live civilly and orderly? Where does this responsibility come from? Because we can empathize with each other and communicate with each other which allows us to know what each other wants out of life. And the vast, vast majority of the population, as we see through independent verification, prefers life over death, health over sickness, pleasure over pain, etc. If we want to live in a world that allows these widespread and shared desires to be fulfilled, then we have an obligation to live in such a way as to provide/accommodate that for each other. 2. Humanists _do_ have a problem with eliminating populations!!!! Especially for bad reasons!!!! _Anyone_ has the potential to be indoctrinated or brainwashed into a system of belief that sees other people in an intolerable and less humane way! Leaders who are in power (theists and atheists alike) could potentially do this. _HUMANISTS_ are against this. 3. Like I mentioned earlier, humanists recognize the responsibility humans have to create an orderly, civil, peaceful society for the well-being of everyone. They realize that this most likely includes the hard work of accommodating multiple world views. If a religion had its druthers, (at least the ones claiming absolute Truth and eternal damnation for a lack of belief) it would universalize the beliefs of the entire population in a heartbeat. But it would require indoctrination, brainwashing, propaganda, etc. edit: Nebuchadnezzar's dream in the Bible comes to mind. A stone cut out of the mountain without hands that rolls fourth to fill the whole Earth. I see this as a system of belief that is beneath the moral pinnacle for one to live by and does not strive for the moral pinnacle, _even if it did have the truth!_ This is because _it would be at the expense of people's freedom to think independently, critically or skeptically about their beliefs_. No falsification!
I would say they are an international organization that incorporates or applies some humanistic principles. Google says: "[The U.N.] is an international organization formed in 1945 to increase political and economic cooperation among member countries. The organization works on economic and social development programs, improving human rights and reducing global conflicts." It doesn't identify itself in any way with a particular system of thought.
You know John Gray from Britain a prominent and ardent supporter of Humanist thought, He said an interesting thing, ... the humanist thought is the same as the Christian line of thought except without Jesus Christ, the same ideas the principles.... Now you may thought or think I am a Christian, and yes I am and what he is saying in many ways is the same as you said, the concern I have it the part of science and technology which he emphasis and the way he addresses the Human animal as he says... Of course as I believe in God this I cannot accept to equate the human race as animals, you understand this .... Now Science has done good but also bad things to Humanity and to day as the UN is seeking to reduce population of Humans on the planet it is very tempting to use science to control, subdue and destroy human life. This has been used by USA and other Nations in many situations. As I believe in a standard set forth by God, laws and principles which promotes a certain lifestyle has not changed, the Humanist thought is based on emotions and feelings which may fluctuate based on situations and development. The UN or talks of humanitarian concerns and actions, which are if you look at it closely, taking a disturbing direction.. I do not know of you support a one world government..... Agenda 21 and Power 2015 are examples of the UN Humanist thought in seeking to replace God's principles with Human Principles and seeking to become or replace God take religion out of the equation al to gether and thought will be come based on unstable principles of the human thought. I am concerned that my freedom is at stake! By the way you attended Brigham Young University,, I thought you maybe Mormon...
it is absolutely true. the LDS church will completely manipulate and even get angry if you dare not accept the beliefs. you are not really allowed to question, think outside the box or be different in any way without complete scorn and shunning.
My great-grandmother was the pariah. She became involved with Christian Science, was put into a mental hospital in Blackfoot where she remained the rest of her life. Her husband married another woman, and I'm not sure if he ever divorced her. She outlived him, and I like to think she got the last laugh, and that at least she had a roof over her head, and probably better provided for.
Lol!!!! I'm sorry but the part where the bishop goes "You might be gay," when he just needed a job is classic. 😂 I've had many church leaders tell me lots of nonsense about myself. I realised that their insights were really quite poor. They tried, but it's all built on sand.
The church essentially says, "Nice family you have there... It would be a shame if something were to happen to it." This is not the behavior of a Church, this is what mob bosses say (and do).
I am not a Mormon but it really bothers me that everyone of these stories talks about losing faith in the church. Faith should be in God, not a man made organization! I am southern Baptist and I love my church; however, it is God that I place my faith in and Jesus Christ died for my sins. Works aren't part of Salvation.
I agree with you! I am Catholic and that Faith has many challenges but I believe in God not the Pope! Although, I do like Pope Francis, as a leader, with change as his focus.
My husband calls it Graduating. (Sounds like Mormons need to do like the Amish and send their kids into the world for a year or two, not on cloistered missions but full immersion in reality. Those who did return would come back with a larger perspective. I've known many converts who already have that perspective and who sometimes find Utah Mormons to lack a basic sense of priorities. On the other hand, I've known people who joined Mism to escape from corruption or sexual abuse or whatever they'd experienced in other sects only to discover (or deny) it happens just as frequently among LDS. Maybe it's like playing musical chairs...)
Thank you for sharing yous story, I have brother in law who has been morman, he is a bishops also works at byu, how can I talk to him, tell him to get his head out of his_ _ _ _. Tryed to tell him men can't become gods, Bible says man is head of the house ,but men are to love thier wives, Mairage say and the 2 will become one. Jesus is my savior, only the blood of Jesus can save, Bible say repent and be baptized as a simble of our profession of our faith, Please read the real Holy Bible, King James, new King James, or the Word of God John 1:1 in the begining was the Word,and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:14 and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we knew Him not
It's all about coming to Jesus and finding rest in him. He wants us to turn our lives over to him. Jesus has already saved us. Not the some artificial belief in the Mormon church.
There are a lot of claims made by these men about what the church teaches that are simply not true. The main gentlemen speaking did a good job of pointing out that members of the church are imperfect, leaders of the church can be imperfect and handle situations poorly. But I wonder, did he lose his faith in God because of the imperfections of people in the church? As soon as we can establish whether not we do believe in God and be sincere with how we go about it, then the basis for believing or not believing in the church has merit.This man seems to be in victim mode, feeling trapped, blaming the church for his situation. Of course we all teach our kids things that we believe in and they are free to choose, discover and decide. I do have empathy for his feeling conflicted not believing and living and loving his family of believers. That would be hard indeed. Maybe that is the main point of this podcast, to understand and empathize with people who leave the church.
+Yoni we don't leave it alone because we have been lied to our whole lives. The church still controls people we love. The church taught us that when we have been warned we should warn our neighbors. I hope you will read the CES letter and find out the truth for yourself. That is why I am speaking out.
This is one of my favorite MS episodes of all time, John
Incredible! Matt I feel soo connected to your story. My kids & ex-wife could not accept who I am, what I believe. They have made that clear. Now after 20+ years 1 son has not gone along with things in the church and more fully understands. My 4 other kids & 17 grandkids will tolerate me as long as I keep my true self hidden from them. The pain I have suffered with the lost of family has been horrific. Your story has greatly touched me & tonight I feel some comfort. Thank you. I wish you lived close by. I am sure we could be great friends because in many ways we have experienced life similarly. Thank you for going on Mormon stories and sharing your story. I am eager to hear of the next two parts. You seem like a phenomenal man. 10/3/22 Johnny
Matt's story was one I could relate to. When I left the church in 2010 I was lucky enough to have a brother and one cousin who preceded my exit. I am so sorry Matt didn't have that support. I can relate to his saying multiple times that he realized that he didn't live in the world he thought he did. I felt the same as if I was some unfortunate alien plopped down into a Mormon family and therein began my confusion, self-sacrifice, and psychological suffering.
Matt is someone I really connect with...very similar stories. Thank you both for sharing your stories of courage and finding yourselves.
My heart breaks for these men and what they went through. They were so brave to share and to leave such a strong influence in their lives. I hope the best for them.
I respect you for what you believe. As a former life-long member of a non-denominational church, it was difficult for me to leave them, too. I still have relatives who are members of the non-LDS faith, and they are still very upset with me for abandoning everything they believe.
Stay strong!
Can’t believe this is 2 years old and I am just seeing it.
I think Matt and I have had similar life experiences.
Two brave men! Hats off to both of them but I always get disheartened when someone still remains religious after these discoveries and the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Awesome stories, John! Keep up the great work!
You're so right and I may as well have said "I got my diaper changed therefore I went hiking on my 30th birthday." I made a comment that excluded all the other information that led to my disheartening and conclusions embraced now. On its face, no doubt a non sequitur, friend. Simply didn't have the time or will to fill in the blanks and for that, I am wrong and you're 100% correct. Next time, I'll make the effort to or at least be conscious of attaching footnotes. ;-)
Everyone is on a journey. This is just where these gentlemen are at this point in time. Maybe they're here for a long time or maybe they will be moving on rather quickly. They don't even know where their faith journey will end.
How very painful. But, how very honest. The day I stopped allowing the catholic church to control me is, I believe, the day I first started living. There was plenty of control, shame and guilt, but not the level of pervasive presence as in the Mormon church. There is so much unnecessary pain inflicted by religion. To thine own self be true. Being your authentic self is a precious gift you give to your children. It's honest. And, when they go off to college and experience the real world, they will come to you when they have a faith crisis.
I remember when I was young, I believed that bishops with their mantle would have great "Holy Ghost" promptings and would be able to help the members of their ward to the utmost. It didn't take long to learn that it doesn't work that way. Sometimes bishops feel that their "gift of discernment" is attributing to you a negative quality when in reality it was some prejudice that set them against you. Some of my experiences with bishops were very good, so I am not putting them down. But the bishops with prejudices that for some reason didn't like you and treated you suspiciously can quickly make you realize that bishops really are "just a guy" with no special mantle, no gift of discernment, and no Holy Ghost promptings.
+cuinn837 And the so called "Prophet" had no divine guidance when Mark Hoffman duped him into paying (reportedly around $900,000.00) for his forged documents. The Emperor has no clothes...... but I guess a lifetime of indoctrination can keep people from seeing reality.
At the time the Hoffman affair happened, I could not bear to believe that the church was false and found some way to rationalize what had happened. Too bad, but I was a young convert and very idealistic. It took until I was older and not so idealistic anymore. Then the internet era was here and I found hordes of evidence that the church was a crock. They've made a mess of peoples' lives with their claims about how the Holy Ghost works.
+cuinn837 yes we must remember that no matter the divine calling or divine gifts they are men subject to the deception of flesh and ego they like all of us are on the way of the roses to golgotha to crucify the flesh if we stray we risk falling away this is seen even in the old testament
+Rich Allen "no matter the divine calling or divine gifts" - They have chosen to undertake a task. Given the trust placed in them by members of a ward, there is something sacred about the task, regardless of how we both might feel about whether "the church is true" (you might say it is, I'd say it isn't). If they do so with love and kindness perhaps one might say they are acting in a "divine" manner, no matter whether the church is true or not (in a Christian sense of this, God is love and spirit, after all). If they do so with the prejudice described by cuinn837 there is nothing divine about their calling or actions.
In my experience, most Bishops have no divine gift. There are a few Bishops who do stand out with spiritual gifts, but they would have had the same in another church. In my opinion, there is nothing about Mormonism that procures God's favor. God reaches out to some members with spiritual gifts because of their great faith in Christ.
Religion brings people together by eliminating differences (in beliefs, lifestyle, etc.)
Humanism brings people together by accepting differences.
Religion teaches discipline, I am not speaking about cults, Christians, normally christians are good moral people and are also achievers the Bible teaches to excel in whatever you do and use your God given talents.
Humanism does not teach the difference between good and evil for that is a God concept, they have emotional laws if it feels good it is good, and humanist have no problem eliminating populations for they see human as the human specie...Humanist will destroy the planet and create chaos it create a law less society and does NOT bring people together that is only a short temporary thing.... The only thing that can bring people together is faith in Jesus Christ...... and be Born Again....
1. Religion teaches discipline... to an unfounded and unnecessary law which, I would argue by the way, is NOT the most moral model a person could live by in their life. It raises people's hopes in things that can't be known and builds an entire coercive world view around it. It denies the evidence that the universe doesn't spoon feed us some ultimate purpose or law to live by or some ultimate meaning to grasp on to. WE are responsible to put meaning and order into our own lives.
Let me guess. You question at this point is: what reason do we have to live civilly and orderly? Where does this responsibility come from?
Because we can empathize with each other and communicate with each other which allows us to know what each other wants out of life. And the vast, vast majority of the population, as we see through independent verification, prefers life over death, health over sickness, pleasure over pain, etc. If we want to live in a world that allows these widespread and shared desires to be fulfilled, then we have an obligation to live in such a way as to provide/accommodate that for each other.
2. Humanists _do_ have a problem with eliminating populations!!!! Especially for bad reasons!!!! _Anyone_ has the potential to be indoctrinated or brainwashed into a system of belief that sees other people in an intolerable and less humane way! Leaders who are in power (theists and atheists alike) could potentially do this. _HUMANISTS_ are against this.
3. Like I mentioned earlier, humanists recognize the responsibility humans have to create an orderly, civil, peaceful society for the well-being of everyone. They realize that this most likely includes the hard work of accommodating multiple world views.
If a religion had its druthers, (at least the ones claiming absolute Truth and eternal damnation for a lack of belief) it would universalize the beliefs of the entire population in a heartbeat. But it would require indoctrination, brainwashing, propaganda, etc.
edit: Nebuchadnezzar's dream in the Bible comes to mind. A stone cut out of the mountain without hands that rolls fourth to fill the whole Earth.
I see this as a system of belief that is beneath the moral pinnacle for one to live by and does not strive for the moral pinnacle, _even if it did have the truth!_ This is because _it would be at the expense of people's freedom to think independently, critically or skeptically about their beliefs_. No falsification!
Thomas, do you believe that the UN is a humanistic organization or .....
I would say they are an international organization that incorporates or applies some humanistic principles.
Google says: "[The U.N.] is an international organization formed in 1945 to increase political and economic cooperation among member countries. The organization works on economic and social development programs, improving human rights and reducing global conflicts."
It doesn't identify itself in any way with a particular system of thought.
You know John Gray from Britain a prominent and ardent supporter of Humanist thought, He said an interesting thing, ... the humanist thought is the same as the Christian line of thought except without Jesus Christ, the same ideas the principles.... Now you may thought or think I am a Christian, and yes I am and what he is saying in many ways is the same as you said, the concern I have it the part of science and technology which he emphasis and the way he addresses the Human animal as he says... Of course as I believe in God this I cannot accept to equate the human race as animals, you understand this ....
Now Science has done good but also bad things to Humanity and to day as the UN is seeking to reduce population of Humans on the planet it is very tempting to use science to control, subdue and destroy human life.
This has been used by USA and other Nations in many situations.
As I believe in a standard set forth by God, laws and principles which promotes a certain lifestyle has not changed, the Humanist thought is based on emotions and feelings which may fluctuate based on situations and development. The UN or talks of humanitarian concerns and actions, which are if you look at it closely, taking a disturbing direction..
I do not know of you support a one world government.....
Agenda 21 and Power 2015 are examples of the UN Humanist thought in seeking to replace God's principles with Human Principles and seeking to become or replace God take religion out of the equation al to gether and thought will be come based on unstable principles of the human thought.
I am concerned that my freedom is at stake!
By the way you attended Brigham Young University,, I thought you maybe Mormon...
it is absolutely true. the LDS church will completely manipulate and even get angry if you dare not accept the beliefs. you are not really allowed to question, think outside the box or be different in any way without complete scorn and shunning.
H.Ellis Lindsey ba
Nah... it's just that you exmormons are just a bunch of snowflakes.
Snowflakes? Oh, I get it, there's something wrong with the person, never the church (cult).
@ R B "I get it."
Yup, nothing wrong with the church, it's the crybabies' fault for being such snowflakes. I'm so glad to see that you "get it."
My great-grandmother was the pariah. She became involved with Christian Science, was put into a mental hospital in Blackfoot where she remained the rest of her life. Her husband married another woman, and I'm not sure if he ever divorced her. She outlived him, and I like to think she got the last laugh, and that at least she had a roof over her head, and probably better provided for.
These stories scare the crap out of me.
It gets real, don't it?
Bryce Thomas why does it scare you?
Why?
Lol!!!! I'm sorry but the part where the bishop goes "You might be gay," when he just needed a job is classic. 😂 I've had many church leaders tell me lots of nonsense about myself. I realised that their insights were really quite poor. They tried, but it's all built on sand.
The church essentially says, "Nice family you have there... It would be a shame if something were to happen to it." This is not the behavior of a Church, this is what mob bosses say (and do).
Someone please tell me what CES is an acronym for.
Church Educational System.
Church Education System
I am not a Mormon but it really bothers me that everyone of these stories talks about losing faith in the church. Faith should be in God, not a man made organization! I am southern Baptist and I love my church; however, it is God that I place my faith in and Jesus Christ died for my sins. Works aren't part of Salvation.
Well, said, Mary. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 sums it up.
I agree with you! I am Catholic and that Faith has many challenges but I believe in God not the Pope! Although, I do like Pope Francis, as a leader, with change as his focus.
My husband calls it Graduating. (Sounds like Mormons need to do like the Amish and send their kids into the world for a year or two, not on cloistered missions but full immersion in reality. Those who did return would come back with a larger perspective. I've known many converts who already have that perspective and who sometimes find Utah Mormons to lack a basic sense of priorities. On the other hand, I've known people who joined Mism to escape from corruption or sexual abuse or whatever they'd experienced in other sects only to discover (or deny) it happens just as frequently among LDS. Maybe it's like playing musical chairs...)
Off topic...John you look too handsome without the baseball cap!!!
😂😂
"Lost his faith in the church"? "Totally committed to the church" ? God will not share His Glory with anyone or any "church".
Amen, Donna.
Thank you for sharing yous story, I have brother in law who has been morman, he is a bishops also works at byu, how can I talk to him, tell him to get his head out of his_ _ _ _. Tryed to tell him men can't become gods,
Bible says man is head of the house ,but men are to love thier wives,
Mairage say and the 2 will become one. Jesus is my savior, only the blood of Jesus can save, Bible say repent and be baptized as a simble of our profession of our faith, Please read the real Holy Bible, King James, new King James, or the Word of God
John 1:1 in the begining was the Word,and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:14 and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we knew Him not
It's all about coming to Jesus and finding rest in him. He wants us to turn our lives over to him. Jesus has already saved us. Not the some artificial belief in the Mormon church.
There are a lot of claims made by these men about what the church teaches that are simply not true. The main gentlemen speaking did a good job of pointing out that members of the church are imperfect, leaders of the church can be imperfect and handle situations poorly. But I wonder, did he lose his faith in God because of the imperfections of people in the church? As soon as we can establish whether not we do believe in God and be sincere with how we go about it, then the basis for believing or not believing in the church has merit.This man seems to be in victim mode, feeling trapped, blaming the church for his situation. Of course we all teach our kids things that we believe in and they are free to choose, discover and decide.
I do have empathy for his feeling conflicted not believing and living and loving his family of believers. That would be hard indeed. Maybe that is the main point of this podcast, to understand and empathize with people who leave the church.
+Annoymous Person No! That's the last thing he sounds like. You sound like you are still in the church. Get out....
+Non Mormon How about people who leave the Church, leave it alone?
+Yoni we don't leave it alone because we have been lied to our whole lives. The church still controls people we love. The church taught us that when we have been warned we should warn our neighbors. I hope you will read the CES letter and find out the truth for yourself. That is why I am speaking out.