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I've always bought whatever steel I can find cheapest. It all seems to pattern about the same in my gun, and all kills birds just as dead. If I'm spending that much money on TSS, I'm water swatting to make sure I don't waste it. If I'm water swatting, I might as well shoot steel anyways.
Federal speed shock is one of the most under rated shell in water fowl hunting. I’ve tried ‘em all Kent black cloud heavy x etc. at 30 yards had same results you did. A lot of pellets in circle and hi count at point of impact. Been using them for years now and my shooting percentage has remained very consistent. Plus the price is right. Keep up the great videos big fan.
Totally agreed, I have shot Federal for 40 years, and always go back to it, whenever I change out of curiosity, or a good deal...Federal rules the day, day in and day out-
My kids don't stop pulling the trigger. I can't wait till they can handle the recoil of a 20 ga and can move them up to that and bismuth. But when your 5 old wants to kill ducks and mom says it's OK, the 410 and tss for the win
Yeah... TSS is definitely impressive, but I'm not spending that much on ammo. I did step up to the Boss shells, going with the 3/5 duplex and I'm really impressed with the pattern versus the 3" #2's I had been shooting. I am getting nearly 50% more pellets on target than with the steel.
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Since you asked about what else would I like to see for more videos. At the top my list would be roughly the same kind of analysis for upland ammo including a comparison of lead vs steel characteristics and choke size with steel vs lead . Love your channel!
Great idea. Just curious, why would one use steel for upland? I thought waterfowl hunters only stopped using lead due to the ban of hunting lead shot over waterways, so upland would always be fine with lead shot.
@@colin2828 thanks. Last year was the first year I’ve hunted in about 45 years when I was a kid. There was basically no upland ammo available except for Kent FastSteel where I live, so I used that and it worked just fine. 2 weeks ago I found some Prairie Storm but only in #4steel shot but wanted to try it (especially wanted to see if 1600 fps would make a difference). Used that on day one of a hunt and it was like I couldn’t miss. Used #5 lead shot the next day without near the success. Not saying it was all because of which shot I was using but it seemed like it mattered. I’m just looking for what works best and I’m fine using steel if it’s better for me. I’m also going go out and pattern test and do my own comparisons of lead vs steel, shot size, and maybe brand comparisons as well. Thanks for the question.
@@ryanwalsh2995 actually you can use lead on WMA's as long as you are not waterfowl hunting. If you are waterfowl hunting then yes, it is non-toxic shot only. Federal WPA's are non-toxic shot only regardless of which game you are hunting. personally, I am making the switch over to non-toxic for everything I hunt with a shotgun just to avoid the hassle of remembering where I can and can't shot certain types of shot.
Awesome video. It would be cool do a similar video comparing the results with lower end ammo options. Federal Speed Shok, WInchester Xpert, Remington Sportsman, etc. Learning a lot from you - thanks!
The best patterns and performance I've seen out of the cheap ammo was fiocci Dakota county loads. Fed blue box was second and I wouldn't give the xpert away to anyone if they needed ammo.
Bismuth all day everyday. It's the most well rounded choice. Based on the results with what you were shooting during the video, I wouldn't waste any money on Black Cloud. Your comment about the Pintail and TSS made sense, and I too might carry two boxes of that ammo in the field for special occasions.
I have never hunted Fowl. I have never owned a shot gun. I move to Texas to be with my son and this is what he wants to do. Bird Hunt. So what does a good dad do....Start educating the both of us and researching and getting a "RUclipscation". Your videos give me things to think about and encourage me to ask more questions. Thank you for sharing!
Greetings from Colorado!! This is a very limited selection to truly justify which shotshell works best. I have been shooting Kent Steel since the day they came out in the late 90s'. They have worked flawless. Lately I have switched to Winchester Blind Side. These shells work excellent. Just my two cents worth!!
I used the Federal Black Cloud TSS 3&9 on conservation goose (meant to use the BB&7) out to 40 yards and it folded geese like a lawn chair. The results were even better when I had the BB&7. I don't hunt waterfowl often, so if I do it will be either the Federal Black Cloud TSS or TSS custom loaded by Apex. I patterned my SBE3 and 28" with several different loads out to 50+ yard using a Carlson's Federal Black Cloud Long Range (full) choke. All patterned well, but the Federal loads beat out the others. Close second was Hevi-Shot XII, which uses a TSS blend pellet to achieve 12 g/cc. My older ammo will only be used for finishing shots. FYI - Spending money on expensive ammo will not make anyone a better shot. Best to get out and do the pattern testing and go shooting at a sporting clays range to become proficient.
Great video Steve ! I’ve always shot lower end steel largely because of what you touched on with the tss you Better be hitting if you’re shooting that. If I felt I was hitting a large percentage of my shots and still wasn’t getting good performance I might make a change.
Diameter is also something to consider even if you have a higher density palette when it comes to terminal ballistics. Get you some fed or win #2 shot 3” or 2 3/4” and your good to go, no need for all that fancy stuff
The only thing I wish you have done differently is maybe shoot each brand 3-5x and compare the averages. Might take more time and cost a little more but you’ll have a lot more accurate results. Absolutely love the video regardless!!
Steve - thank you for taking the time and putting together this awesome video together. Waterfowlers are dying for facts and not just the hearsay we get in the fields from other hunters. Enlightening as always! Cheers
Let me compliment you on a very well done video. You did a great job in comparing all aspects of the various ammunition patterning, ballistics and price.
Fantastic video! Appreciated the stats and ballistics results, also appreciating that while a bunch of repeats at each distance with each type of ammunition would give more representative stats, there are also some very practical upper limits to that in producing a video of this nature. While the TSS or bismuth shot undoubtedly has more "killing power" as you've shown, my thoughts went to an additional consideration: how much meat damage (and therefore meat wastage) is being incurred comparatively across the different types of ammunition? Another way of asking this is: how many pellets is enough to do the job ethically, quickly and humanely with unnecessarily destroying meat? That might have been a good additional consideration to include or at least to have discussed. It almost struck me that in every instance, the lowest-cost ammunition may have actually yielded some of the least meat damage. If you're hunting to put meat on the table, and mindful of conservation, surely this is a pretty major consideration?
I ended up with a carlsons black cloud TSS choke with my gun and at 30 yards the pattern is about the size of a basketball. Few other loads have been beautiful patterns outta that choke. I’m a firm believer that black cloud needs a black cloud choke. That tss blend is worth the price and I got a bargain on a few boxes. I want ducks DOA when they hit the water. Think about how many times you have to shoot at cripples and how many times you could have saved add’l shots with a better shell
“….. you go to the store and there are a lot of options….” What year do you think it is Steve? 2019? In Canada all shelves are empty. Your buy what you can get. Ammo prices have almost doubled and still you can’t find any.
I did some research and most factory flush improved cylinder chokes are going to be comparable in actual constriction to the choke you used. most people using factory chokes will be using mod i assume... very interesting.....
Great video! I’ve been shooting federal blue box and faststeel my whole life until recently I’m done with kent as the 2.0 stuff is just garbage. Blue box it is!! Unless your shooting sub gauge guns or old guns that can’t handle steel than bismuth and tungsten isn’t worth the money. I personally think bismuth is the biggest gimmick in the waterfowl world right now. #9 tungsten will absolutely devastate a duck, but I don’t like eating pellets either.
Basically, it comes down to can you shoot or can you not. A beginner may need more shot, but a beginner might not also want to down $2+ a round. A better shooter isn’t going to need as much forgiveness, so wouldn’t need to spend so much to get all of the that shot. Federal is hands down the winner in my eyes, I’ve used it a lot and rarely have an instance where I thought I hit a bird and it kept going. I like Kent FastSteel a lot for the money. Similar price to federal, but you get an extra 100fps. I’d be curious to see a video between it, federal, and the black cloud. More energy down range, similar price and amount of shot.
Thanks for the video. We have been shooting Kent steel #2 for ducks and BB’s for geese in 2 3/4 and 3”’for years with great success. Averages shots 35 yards. Using Benelli SB and stock chokes. Tried the Federal
The reason the TSS looked so much better is because the target & ballistic gel were stationary. The different size / density pellets fly at different speeds. Therefore, on a moving target you will get more of one type of pellet & less pellets overall. You can even see this in the high speed on the gel, there are two separate impacts of pellets from the same shot. With a fast moving duck that time delay will make a difference.
I started using Federal Black Cloud TSS 3&9 this season and the results have been devastating compared to steel or steel/bismuth blend. By mistake I loaded the 3&9 instead of the BB&7 for goose and I folded two of them like lawn chairs at 40 yards. The first with one shot, the second took two. My shotgun is a SBE3 with a Carlson's Black Cloud TSS FULL choke. The rest of the week I used the BB&7 and the goose kept going down and going down hard. Right now I have a friend using the 3&9 on Duck in NY with a Browning Maxus and Carlson's Cremator SKEET choke...shots out to 50 yards on the fly and they are hitting the ground without needing a follow up. I'm sold on spending the money on the good stuff and taking fewer shots. Better ammo will not improve your skills, but if you are on target (and laser focused) the birds will fall easily. You still need to do your part and practice, and that will never change.
I tried black cloud shells one weekend and gave them away afterwards. The few birds I was able to knock down (knocked feathers off plenty) the black cloud pellets were just stuck under the skin. Seeing them prices I'm glad I bought cases of fiocci Dakota county when it was 9.99 a box...plus they throw consistent 90% patterns out of the choke I use. Ps if you come across any primos dead zone duck chokes (discontinued) buy them. Best 10 dollar chokes I've ever patterned.
Awesome video!, I would love to see a follow up to this answering the question: does barrel length change the results? If you shot a 24 inch barrel vs a 30 inch would you get the same results?
Great video man. I always learn more than what I know after watching your videos. I would really like to see that different patterns of different size Carlson choke. I’ve been wanting to get one but I’m still not exactly sure which one I want yet. Thanks
Steve thank you for putting together this awesome video together. I am a beginner and just started to learn shut guns and ammo. for me it is very confusing information but by watching your videos I start anderstand more and more. Thank you for your time and effort to help people .
Excellent video! Just one quick note - the figures quoted as ‘energy’ were actually ‘energy density,’ which is energy divided by the frontal area of the pellet. It gives you a rough estimate of the penetrating power of the pellet (which was largely confirmed by the gel test). A huge experiment back in the 1970’s found that 235 ft.lbs./in2 was sufficient energy density to achieve lethal penetration on mallard-sized targets. All of the ammo you tested met this minimum at 40 yards (the steel 3’s were right at the minimum value). Keep up the good work!
Uses to buy what ever steel i could fiochi was main cheap brand then went to hevi steel constantly and got boss bismuth with copper coating and haven't switched back absolutely love the bismuth rounds
FANTASTIC VIDEO! Man, so many rabbit holes to go down. The energy and velocity rabbit holes are fascinating. If any given pellets are the same size and same weight the faster shot will slow down faster because of air resistance. More speed = more resistance. Less speed = less energy. Faster is not always better. Except that in wing shooting the faster the shot gets to target could be better. And, at the ranges we're operating in, it's not enough to matter. Another common misconception is more pellets = more energy. If a heavier and lighter shot load are both travelling the same velocity, the energy is the same. Energy isn't figured collectively. Each pellet contains X energy, regardless how many pellets are thrown. Yeah, you could maybe argue that if you hit with more pellets, there's more total energy but we have NO idea how many pellets are gonna hit the target. We may hit the target with more pellets of the lighter shot load. Heavier shot load generally = more recoil. Does any of that matter? Not enough difference to make a difference, IMO. All of that to say, you're right. There's always a trade off and you just have to figure out which one makes sense for what you're doing.
I have shot LOTS of federal speed shoks and love them still. Crazy thing is, 5 years ago, I would buy the 100 shell box for $63.99CAD…seen them yesterday as same retailer for $139.99.
Boss makes some amazing bismuth shells. What I like is they sell direct to consumer, so you don’t pay all the extra price hikes from manufacturer to retailer to consumer. They can be had for less than black cloud.
It's been a while since I duck hunted but I like 3 1/2 mag Kent number 3 and keep my shots around 35 yards. That gets pellet count up for more pellets on the duck and not too much money
I live in south Louisiana and us Cajuns look forward to the opening of duck season and most of us hunt coots. I shoot the browning a5 and use federal all day with no complaints. Great shell for price and effectiveness
Kent Fasteel 2.0 is the only thing I'll ever run during waterfowl season, no matter how expensive it keeps getting. It runs SUPER clean and the pattern always seems to be consistent
I've always hated black cloud or blind side with the "speciality" pellet shapes. They don't pattern worth anything. Just regular, round pellets do best. Boss is great, I also like the speed shok steel for close range slinging at teal.
I bought a box of TSS from rogers last year at just over $300 ($320 i believe) which puts it at 3.20/ shot. Still spendy. But by far knocks them down dead. If someone is a great shot then TSS may be the right choice. Defiantly less cripples. I also have shot the standard black cloud not sold on it. But I got a case of that and a half a case of the TSS so that is what ill be shooting this season.
My go to load in the duck blind is federal speed shock 3" 1 1/4 Oz. #2 but now I'm considering going to the tss as maybe the third shot in the gun all the time
Lead still being the best option with a high density pellets and at only 9 dollars a box of 25 shells.. Here in chile we continue using lead and you don't see any problem with that in the ecosystem
I’ve never had a problem shooting steel. I’ve tried tungsten(hevi shot blend not tss) and bismuth. I do think it extends your range but I don’t really see a huge improvement worth the price. I like my birds close anyway. If you are shooting 30 yards and In you don’t need anything but steel from a 12 gauge. I see more value in the tungsten and bismuth for smaller calibers so you get my pellets
I have tried many steel loads. I run a cabelas black Maxx choke tube (cabelas branded carlson cremator) and have tried 9 different loads. The cheap Winchester expert and federal speed shock are the top two on the pattern board. Have taken birds most with them. More premium brands didn't do better, but I also ran a fairly tight choke when I patterned black cloud and that likely hurt its pattern as they prefer less constriction.
I love speed shok. I shoot #4's and get a lot more bbs on target because they are smaller. It knocks ducks dead out to 50 yards and decoying goose shot in the neck and head are dead before they hit the ground.
Tss should only be used for turkey imo, $6 per shot is just mad. I am so glad I watched this video because I plan on getting an inexpensive steel shot shell for like a dollar per shell. I would actually recommend trying an extra full choke with the steel shot instead of moving up to a more expensive ammo, nice chokes put in more work on target for me at least. I also eat the duck I hunt and I enjoy being able to go through the meat with a strong magnet to get rid of all the little pellets and the fact that bismuth shatters in the meat REALLY sketches me out. I don't need to spend more money at the dentist. Great video have a great day!
My go to ammo is Hevi-Hammer and Winchester Dryloks. Hevi-Hammer patterns best out of my shotgun though (Beretta A400) out of about 10 different types I’ve tried.
For duck I shoot #4 steel. I hate a #2 shoot. If I do geese hunting I use BB. Steel. Never needed anything else. I use a challenger shell always done good with it.
I bought a case of speed shock #3. Hit ducks at 25 -30 yards causing their feathers to fly off and birds just keep going, or some fall then you have to shoot them again on the water before they dive down . Changed to hevi metal and they fall immobile. Tss kills them dead. I shot black cloud high velocity and my barrel was lined with black suit.
I use Score 3" 1 1/4oz 1550fps #2 for pretty much everything inside 40 yards. basically hits like standard 3.5" with way less recoil and cost. If they made #1 shot that's all I'd ever buy. lol
I vote bismuth…. Moderate price, kills em dead, and more pellets on target than steel. The other thing to consider is a similar shot string to to lead that I practice with in the off season. If you aren’t shooting an improved modified with bismuth you’re doing yourself a disservice. Around 35 yards it really falls apart and that little extra constriction really makes a difference
Gotta go with the speedshock. The price for performance cant be beaten but the TSS is also not bad, Feel like I would definitely like to use it for Turkey etc. Exactly like how you mentioned it.
I would like to see this redone with maximum performance at longer ranges. For example, a patternmaster duck/goose/extended range choke, Hevi Metal Longer range, and up the range out to 70 yards like these chokes and shots are claiming. Maybe even 3 1/2 loads. They say it's an effective range at 70, so I would be very curious how the wound channels look at that range. I have the above setup on a Beretta A400 xtreme plus. I just need to find a place where I can get out there and try my shots out before the season hits. Great video, very informative. Awesome setup!
My favorite load is the Federal Speed Shoks. I do however on hunts where I get a chance to shoot something I don’t always see I will use Boss 3in 1 1/2oz bismuth loads like I used to kill my tundra swan and pintails
Something true 100 years ago with shotguns that’s still true today. The better shooter you become through sporting clay practice, the more ducks you will bring home at the least cost. Ammo choice is important but not as important as a gun and choke that pattern the ammo and your accuracy.
On your first testing shot ,you had counted the bbs in the wings ,which is fine and dandy but getting shot in the primaries of the wings won't knock down or kill the bird ,I think that the targets should be remade with the bone and skeletal structure and not feathers . You want to break bones and hit vitals not wing feathers
Awesome channel thanks for all the reviews. Super helpful I was in the market for another shot gun and your reviews helped me make my mind up. If looking for more content would love to see a video comparing the basic duck ammo against each other. If you’re ever in Washington state on the coast we have pintails coming out of our ears and could get you on some.
I found these videos recently as I'm thinking about replacing my Browning Gold shotgun and watching reviews. Great content, on this subject I can only see spending six bucks a shot at sandhill cranes or trumpet swans or something.
I have used Kent Fasteel for a long time but after this case runs out I am going to switch it to the Boss stacked loads. I’ve seen feathers fly off honkers and keep flying and probably go die somewhere. I want that hard hitter/clean kill as much as I can afford it
Brings me back to three for three mallards with my 20 gauge 2 3/4” when I was a child.many 12 gauge 2 3/4 Remington 1100’s in the marsh also with cheap steel those days nothing fancy
Really good effort with your analysis. When the big switch to non-toxic shot came, the world didn’t end like many of the old timers predicted. We adjusted and changed. For those that did a lot of shooting, I couldn’t justify 3$ a shell regardless of anything else. Patterns are still #1 requirement. 25 years later the dust has settled, Ive been (mostly) shooting the same stuff. When shooting steel , speed is everything, and bigger shot. #2 3”, 1550 FPS ducks and geese., #4 3”,1550 early ducks geese, decoys. The price is reasonable, so you shoot enough to get practical experience, and then confident that #2 will fold a greater Canada goose at 40yards.
@@NikkaPleeease I shoot alot. I'm interested in anything you can add about shooting steel. Because I shoot alot, I can't afford to shoot an lead equivalent non toxic shot. What I have found is that I shoot a little bigger shot size that will pattern at the distance I have to shoot, and get the fastest shot, and 3" to increase shot count ?
@@peterparsons7141 I just wanted to reiterate that speed ISN’T everything when it comes to steel. Sure it’s quicker, but in my personal opinion, with a lot of the lighter loads & higher fps, your sacrificing pellet ct, accuracy, and potentially longer shots. Sweet spot is 1/4oz; 1350-1500fps. Everybody’s gun is diff though, you know? So what do I know… lol
Going to MO in a few months for conservation order snow geese... I think that Federal "blue box" will suit our group fine. Probably will opt for BB, using a steel-proofed IM / Light Full choke... Great video. Thanks much!
Interesting how the bismuth only penetrated about 1/2” more than the cheap speed shock. And the federal you tested is moving 100 fps faster than Boss I believe. Hard to beat the blue box for the $ I think there’s definitely some hype going on with boss.
I love your videos. You do a great service for consumers. I would like to see you do more tests with factory chokes. I have 3 A5 Wicked Wings and 1 Maxus Wicked Wing (I have four grandsons so they have shotguns when they are ready). The Banded chokes that come with the WW editions are made by Biley. I have found them to be better than any aftermarket chokes I have patterned.
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Thank you for the exciting science behind the hobby. When shooting a duck, it all boiled down to experience and timing with some luck. An old-timer probably wouldn’t know the difference between the cartridges. However, Because he carries limited shells, he barely misses. Also, he is a loaner, so he only brings 6 to 12 decoys but still takes greenheads or other drakes home. 🦆🦆
It seems like other brands that make a bismuth load have been far more accurate/better patterns down range compared to anything steel. I was pretty set on going with bismuth next season until I saw this video and its making me think again. It's also making me think it would be fun to have money for TSS.
I shot black cloud for the first time last season. I'm disappointed to see the performance drop off at 40 yards. Maybe I'll save it for the timber this season and use old fashion round shot in the fields. I was thinking of grabbing bismuth for goose hunts, but the performance gain seems marginal. Maybe tugnsten would be justifiable for a Canadian goose hunt, but not a speck hunt. Lots to think about, great video! Would love to see a black cloud vs hex shot vs traditional next!
Nice video. I would like to see a video on reloading steel shot and the difference in velocities by changing a few gr of powder and how it changes the pattern. Thanks
Give me more shot. Speed really doesn't matter. If you want to shoot more ducks , learn to shoot & your shot to kill ratio significantly go up. Great video as usual
That TSS doesn’t look like it would leave much meat left, shot concentration is good but when the majority of the meat is torn and riddled by shot. Please tell me the point of the TSS.
It's probably going to vary based on the specific gun and shell. A lot of people have no problems shooting 2¾ out of a 3½ inch chamber and they seem to pattern well. But I've also seen people finding that short shells in long chambers can potentially damage the wad or deform softer shot, due to the shot expanding in the chamber then necking back down in the forcing cone. I'm not sure if there's any truth to that, or if it even matters. I think the only way to know for sure is to spend time patterning a specific combination.
Great video thank you for putting it out. I would go with the federal. I feel it was the most Consistent all around for the price point. Also I would like to see you do one of these with turkey loads since turkey season is right around the corner.
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I am already signed up!!
Did it!
Steve, at what distance did you shoot the gel blocks?
Could you do a video on Migra ammunition shells?
I've always bought whatever steel I can find cheapest. It all seems to pattern about the same in my gun, and all kills birds just as dead. If I'm spending that much money on TSS, I'm water swatting to make sure I don't waste it. If I'm water swatting, I might as well shoot steel anyways.
Steel just doesn't penetrate when a duck has it's wings folded in
Yep. Always keep a couple tss Turkey loads just in case I need to water swat a trophy bird at 60 yards 😂
Swatting, is that equivalent to skipping stones?
@@WanderingBobAK shooting birds on the water instead of in the air. It's not fun, but it is harder to miss.
Thats bs @robertshockley9380
Federal speed shock is one of the most under rated shell in water fowl hunting. I’ve tried ‘em all Kent black cloud heavy x etc. at 30 yards had same results you did. A lot of pellets in circle and hi count at point of impact. Been using them for years now and my shooting percentage has remained very consistent. Plus the price is right. Keep up the great videos big fan.
Totally agreed, I have shot Federal for 40 years, and always go back to it, whenever I change out of curiosity, or a good deal...Federal rules the day, day in and day out-
Been wanting to do this myself but don’t wanna spend $100-$200 just to test ammo out. So glad you spent the time AND money so we don’t have to!
One more thing to consider is meat preservation
You gotta think having more bbs in the duck may not be the best for harvesting
Would you prefer 3", 2" or 1" shotshell loads? Never went duck hunting, but I'm curious which pellet size would be easier to pluck out of the Duck.
@@joshuachristiansen4253 3 “ number 3 shot is my favorite
Those tss prices got me wondering if i would even pull the trigger. lol Great video!
I miss too much too shoot those shells
Too much to buy. I’d shoot them all day tho.
My kids don't stop pulling the trigger. I can't wait till they can handle the recoil of a 20 ga and can move them up to that and bismuth. But when your 5 old wants to kill ducks and mom says it's OK, the 410 and tss for the win
Look around online at ammo shops. It’s not that high.
@@duckbrian7973 the tss is. 69.99 for 10
Yeah... TSS is definitely impressive, but I'm not spending that much on ammo. I did step up to the Boss shells, going with the 3/5 duplex and I'm really impressed with the pattern versus the 3" #2's I had been shooting. I am getting nearly 50% more pellets on target than with the steel.
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Since you asked about what else would I like to see for more videos. At the top my list would be roughly the same kind of analysis for upland ammo including a comparison of lead vs steel characteristics and choke size with steel vs lead . Love your channel!
Great idea. Just curious, why would one use steel for upland?
I thought waterfowl hunters only stopped using lead due to the ban of hunting lead shot over waterways, so upland would always be fine with lead shot.
We cannot use any lead on public lands here in MN
@@colin2828 thanks. Last year was the first year I’ve hunted in about 45 years when I was a kid. There was basically no upland ammo available except for Kent FastSteel where I live, so I used that and it worked just fine. 2 weeks ago I found some Prairie Storm but only in #4steel shot but wanted to try it (especially wanted to see if 1600 fps would make a difference). Used that on day one of a hunt and it was like I couldn’t miss. Used #5 lead shot the next day without near the success. Not saying it was all because of which shot I was using but it seemed like it mattered. I’m just looking for what works best and I’m fine using steel if it’s better for me. I’m also going go out and pattern test and do my own comparisons of lead vs steel, shot size, and maybe brand comparisons as well. Thanks for the question.
@@ryanwalsh2995 actually you can use lead on WMA's as long as you are not waterfowl hunting. If you are waterfowl hunting then yes, it is non-toxic shot only. Federal WPA's are non-toxic shot only regardless of which game you are hunting. personally, I am making the switch over to non-toxic for everything I hunt with a shotgun just to avoid the hassle of remembering where I can and can't shot certain types of shot.
@@colin2828 Most western states I hunt have banned or plan on banning all lead for hunting.
Awesome video. It would be cool do a similar video comparing the results with lower end ammo options. Federal Speed Shok, WInchester Xpert, Remington Sportsman, etc. Learning a lot from you - thanks!
I agree. For those of us who can’t afford the $3 per shot and up options. Would be great to see a comparison of the different steel choices.
pretty sure hes sponsored by federal lol
The best patterns and performance I've seen out of the cheap ammo was fiocci Dakota county loads. Fed blue box was second and I wouldn't give the xpert away to anyone if they needed ammo.
The most prolific duck hunter i know uses a remington 870 and remington sportsman. Good results. Who knows how many rounds that 870 has shot.
I agree
Bismuth all day everyday. It's the most well rounded choice. Based on the results with what you were shooting during the video, I wouldn't waste any money on Black Cloud. Your comment about the Pintail and TSS made sense, and I too might carry two boxes of that ammo in the field for special occasions.
I have never hunted Fowl. I have never owned a shot gun. I move to Texas to be with my son and this is what he wants to do. Bird Hunt. So what does a good dad do....Start educating the both of us and researching and getting a "RUclipscation". Your videos give me things to think about and encourage me to ask more questions. Thank you for sharing!
Greetings from Colorado!! This is a very limited selection to truly justify which shotshell works best. I have been shooting Kent Steel since the day they came out in the late 90s'. They have worked flawless.
Lately I have switched to Winchester Blind Side. These shells work excellent. Just my two cents worth!!
I used the Federal Black Cloud TSS 3&9 on conservation goose (meant to use the BB&7) out to 40 yards and it folded geese like a lawn chair. The results were even better when I had the BB&7. I don't hunt waterfowl often, so if I do it will be either the Federal Black Cloud TSS or TSS custom loaded by Apex.
I patterned my SBE3 and 28" with several different loads out to 50+ yard using a Carlson's Federal Black Cloud Long Range (full) choke. All patterned well, but the Federal loads beat out the others. Close second was Hevi-Shot XII, which uses a TSS blend pellet to achieve 12 g/cc. My older ammo will only be used for finishing shots.
FYI - Spending money on expensive ammo will not make anyone a better shot. Best to get out and do the pattern testing and go shooting at a sporting clays range to become proficient.
I would love to see you test the Kent fast steel waterfowl loads on the ballistics gel. That is what I use and the down range velocity is 1560
Also boss bismuth is the way to go. The price is a touch higher than premium steel but much lower than $63 a box
Great video Steve ! I’ve always shot lower end steel largely because of what you touched on with the tss you Better be hitting if you’re shooting that. If I felt I was hitting a large percentage of my shots and still wasn’t getting good performance I might make a change.
Diameter is also something to consider even if you have a higher density palette when it comes to terminal ballistics. Get you some fed or win #2 shot 3” or 2 3/4” and your good to go, no need for all that fancy stuff
The only thing I wish you have done differently is maybe shoot each brand 3-5x and compare the averages. Might take more time and cost a little more but you’ll have a lot more accurate results. Absolutely love the video regardless!!
Steve - thank you for taking the time and putting together this awesome video together. Waterfowlers are dying for facts and not just the hearsay we get in the fields from other hunters. Enlightening as always! Cheers
Let me compliment you on a very well done video. You did a great job in comparing all aspects of the various ammunition patterning, ballistics and price.
Fantastic video! Appreciated the stats and ballistics results, also appreciating that while a bunch of repeats at each distance with each type of ammunition would give more representative stats, there are also some very practical upper limits to that in producing a video of this nature.
While the TSS or bismuth shot undoubtedly has more "killing power" as you've shown, my thoughts went to an additional consideration: how much meat damage (and therefore meat wastage) is being incurred comparatively across the different types of ammunition? Another way of asking this is: how many pellets is enough to do the job ethically, quickly and humanely with unnecessarily destroying meat? That might have been a good additional consideration to include or at least to have discussed. It almost struck me that in every instance, the lowest-cost ammunition may have actually yielded some of the least meat damage. If you're hunting to put meat on the table, and mindful of conservation, surely this is a pretty major consideration?
Steel 6 shot has some of the best performance I've seen on ducks. I've shot Boss, I'm not super impressed for the money but a lot of people like it.
I ended up with a carlsons black cloud TSS choke with my gun and at 30 yards the pattern is about the size of a basketball. Few other loads have been beautiful patterns outta that choke. I’m a firm believer that black cloud needs a black cloud choke. That tss blend is worth the price and I got a bargain on a few boxes. I want ducks DOA when they hit the water. Think about how many times you have to shoot at cripples and how many times you could have saved add’l shots with a better shell
I say shoot what you got and practice, for me it’s steel good middle of the road performance and ain’t going to break the bank, great video as always
“….. you go to the store and there are a lot of options….” What year do you think it is Steve? 2019? In Canada all shelves are empty. Your buy what you can get. Ammo prices have almost doubled and still you can’t find any.
I did some research and most factory flush improved cylinder chokes are going to be comparable in actual constriction to the choke you used. most people using factory chokes will be using mod i assume... very interesting.....
Would have liked to see some 3 1/2’ shells to see the difference between 3’ and 3 1/2’
Bismuth for value and knock down power. Tss is way to pricey. Maybe hevi 12 if you want tungsten
Great video! I’ve been shooting federal blue box and faststeel my whole life until recently I’m done with kent as the 2.0 stuff is just garbage. Blue box it is!!
Unless your shooting sub gauge guns or old guns that can’t handle steel than bismuth and tungsten isn’t worth the money. I personally think bismuth is the biggest gimmick in the waterfowl world right now.
#9 tungsten will absolutely devastate a duck, but I don’t like eating pellets either.
Basically, it comes down to can you shoot or can you not. A beginner may need more shot, but a beginner might not also want to down $2+ a round. A better shooter isn’t going to need as much forgiveness, so wouldn’t need to spend so much to get all of the that shot. Federal is hands down the winner in my eyes, I’ve used it a lot and rarely have an instance where I thought I hit a bird and it kept going. I like Kent FastSteel a lot for the money. Similar price to federal, but you get an extra 100fps. I’d be curious to see a video between it, federal, and the black cloud. More energy down range, similar price and amount of shot.
The factory goose band choke in my A5 with the mod loves the speed shock number 4s and it works great
Thanks for the video. We have been shooting Kent steel #2 for ducks and BB’s for geese in 2 3/4 and 3”’for years with great success. Averages shots 35 yards. Using Benelli SB and stock chokes. Tried the Federal
When we tried Federal before discovering Kent we were very disappointed. However they may have made improvements.
I had a lot of light strikes with federal in 3 different guns
@@millionjakeus yes exactly what we experienced. I found Federals very dirty compared to Kents
@@DaveThomspon . Yes, same here.
I only use boxes shot I hate the steel shot because it isn't dense enough the go into waterfowl
The reason the TSS looked so much better is because the target & ballistic gel were stationary. The different size / density pellets fly at different speeds. Therefore, on a moving target you will get more of one type of pellet & less pellets overall. You can even see this in the high speed on the gel, there are two separate impacts of pellets from the same shot. With a fast moving duck that time delay will make a difference.
Thought on not counting pellets that hit the feathers of the wings and not the actual bone structure?
I started using Federal Black Cloud TSS 3&9 this season and the results have been devastating compared to steel or steel/bismuth blend. By mistake I loaded the 3&9 instead of the BB&7 for goose and I folded two of them like lawn chairs at 40 yards. The first with one shot, the second took two. My shotgun is a SBE3 with a Carlson's Black Cloud TSS FULL choke. The rest of the week I used the BB&7 and the goose kept going down and going down hard. Right now I have a friend using the 3&9 on Duck in NY with a Browning Maxus and Carlson's Cremator SKEET choke...shots out to 50 yards on the fly and they are hitting the ground without needing a follow up.
I'm sold on spending the money on the good stuff and taking fewer shots. Better ammo will not improve your skills, but if you are on target (and laser focused) the birds will fall easily. You still need to do your part and practice, and that will never change.
I tried black cloud shells one weekend and gave them away afterwards. The few birds I was able to knock down (knocked feathers off plenty) the black cloud pellets were just stuck under the skin.
Seeing them prices I'm glad I bought cases of fiocci Dakota county when it was 9.99 a box...plus they throw consistent 90% patterns out of the choke I use.
Ps if you come across any primos dead zone duck chokes (discontinued) buy them. Best 10 dollar chokes I've ever patterned.
Awesome video!, I would love to see a follow up to this answering the question: does barrel length change the results? If you shot a 24 inch barrel vs a 30 inch would you get the same results?
If you can find them, try Migra shotgun shells. BB/2's or 2/4's in 12 or 20 gauge. I think you'll be impressed! Manufactured in South Carolina.
I like to mix the rounds up‼️
A little bit of everything‼️
Helps the pockets‼️
And I get a variety spread‼️
Great video man. I always learn more than what I know after watching your videos. I would really like to see that different patterns of different size Carlson choke. I’ve been wanting to get one but I’m still not exactly sure which one I want yet. Thanks
Steve thank you for putting together this awesome video together. I am a beginner and just started to learn shut guns and ammo. for me it is very confusing information but by watching your videos I start anderstand more and more. Thank you for your time and effort to help people .
Excellent video! Just one quick note - the figures quoted as ‘energy’ were actually ‘energy density,’ which is energy divided by the frontal area of the pellet. It gives you a rough estimate of the penetrating power of the pellet (which was largely confirmed by the gel test). A huge experiment back in the 1970’s found that 235 ft.lbs./in2 was sufficient energy density to achieve lethal penetration on mallard-sized targets. All of the ammo you tested met this minimum at 40 yards (the steel 3’s were right at the minimum value). Keep up the good work!
Uses to buy what ever steel i could fiochi was main cheap brand then went to hevi steel constantly and got boss bismuth with copper coating and haven't switched back absolutely love the bismuth rounds
FANTASTIC VIDEO! Man, so many rabbit holes to go down. The energy and velocity rabbit holes are fascinating. If any given pellets are the same size and same weight the faster shot will slow down faster because of air resistance. More speed = more resistance. Less speed = less energy. Faster is not always better. Except that in wing shooting the faster the shot gets to target could be better. And, at the ranges we're operating in, it's not enough to matter. Another common misconception is more pellets = more energy. If a heavier and lighter shot load are both travelling the same velocity, the energy is the same. Energy isn't figured collectively. Each pellet contains X energy, regardless how many pellets are thrown. Yeah, you could maybe argue that if you hit with more pellets, there's more total energy but we have NO idea how many pellets are gonna hit the target. We may hit the target with more pellets of the lighter shot load. Heavier shot load generally = more recoil. Does any of that matter? Not enough difference to make a difference, IMO. All of that to say, you're right. There's always a trade off and you just have to figure out which one makes sense for what you're doing.
I have shot LOTS of federal speed shoks and love them still. Crazy thing is, 5 years ago, I would buy the 100 shell box for $63.99CAD…seen them yesterday as same retailer for $139.99.
Boss makes some amazing bismuth shells. What I like is they sell direct to consumer, so you don’t pay all the extra price hikes from manufacturer to retailer to consumer. They can be had for less than black cloud.
Copper plated bismuth direct from Boss is what I have switched to, and is much cheaper than other bismuth.
It's been a while since I duck hunted but I like 3 1/2 mag Kent number 3 and keep my shots around 35 yards. That gets pellet count up for more pellets on the duck and not too much money
I live in south Louisiana and us Cajuns look forward to the opening of duck season and most of us hunt coots. I shoot the browning a5 and use federal all day with no complaints. Great shell for price and effectiveness
Kent Fasteel 2.0 is the only thing I'll ever run during waterfowl season, no matter how expensive it keeps getting. It runs SUPER clean and the pattern always seems to be consistent
Yep! Kent! super X as a second choice, never cared for black cloud,
Thank you Steve for such a great job 👏👏👏
I would shoot TSS and shot only when sure I can see the target focus. And I shoot an over and under shotgun.
I've always hated black cloud or blind side with the "speciality" pellet shapes. They don't pattern worth anything. Just regular, round pellets do best. Boss is great, I also like the speed shok steel for close range slinging at teal.
I bought a box of TSS from rogers last year at just over $300 ($320 i believe) which puts it at 3.20/ shot. Still spendy. But by far knocks them down dead. If someone is a great shot then TSS may be the right choice. Defiantly less cripples. I also have shot the standard black cloud not sold on it. But I got a case of that and a half a case of the TSS so that is what ill be shooting this season.
My go to load in the duck blind is federal speed shock 3" 1 1/4 Oz. #2 but now I'm considering going to the tss as maybe the third shot in the gun all the time
Lead still being the best option with a high density pellets and at only 9 dollars a box of 25 shells..
Here in chile we continue using lead and you don't see any problem with that in the ecosystem
the best bro love them when are you going to do the 20vs20 gas vs inertia pls 😃
I’ve never had a problem shooting steel. I’ve tried tungsten(hevi shot blend not tss) and bismuth. I do think it extends your range but I don’t really see a huge improvement worth the price. I like my birds close anyway. If you are shooting 30 yards and In you don’t need anything but steel from a 12 gauge. I see more value in the tungsten and bismuth for smaller calibers so you get my pellets
I have tried many steel loads. I run a cabelas black Maxx choke tube (cabelas branded carlson cremator) and have tried 9 different loads. The cheap Winchester expert and federal speed shock are the top two on the pattern board. Have taken birds most with them. More premium brands didn't do better, but I also ran a fairly tight choke when I patterned black cloud and that likely hurt its pattern as they prefer less constriction.
I love speed shok. I shoot #4's and get a lot more bbs on target because they are smaller. It knocks ducks dead out to 50 yards and decoying goose shot in the neck and head are dead before they hit the ground.
Tss should only be used for turkey imo, $6 per shot is just mad. I am so glad I watched this video because I plan on getting an inexpensive steel shot shell for like a dollar per shell. I would actually recommend trying an extra full choke with the steel shot instead of moving up to a more expensive ammo, nice chokes put in more work on target for me at least. I also eat the duck I hunt and I enjoy being able to go through the meat with a strong magnet to get rid of all the little pellets and the fact that bismuth shatters in the meat REALLY sketches me out. I don't need to spend more money at the dentist. Great video have a great day!
My go to ammo is Hevi-Hammer and Winchester Dryloks. Hevi-Hammer patterns best out of my shotgun though (Beretta A400) out of about 10 different types I’ve tried.
For duck I shoot #4 steel. I hate a #2 shoot. If I do geese hunting I use BB. Steel. Never needed anything else. I use a challenger shell always done good with it.
I bought a case of speed shock #3. Hit ducks at 25 -30 yards causing their feathers to fly off and birds just keep going, or some fall then you have to shoot them again on the water before they dive down . Changed to hevi metal and they fall immobile. Tss kills them dead. I shot black cloud high velocity and my barrel was lined with black suit.
I use Score 3" 1 1/4oz 1550fps #2 for pretty much everything inside 40 yards. basically hits like standard 3.5" with way less recoil and cost. If they made #1 shot that's all I'd ever buy. lol
just steel and i think Score i s only available in Canuckistan.
I reload and am sold on 1 ounce of 3s at 1550ish. Over decoys and out to 40 through an ic or mod choke they are deadly.
I vote bismuth…. Moderate price, kills em dead, and more pellets on target than steel. The other thing to consider is a similar shot string to to lead that I practice with in the off season. If you aren’t shooting an improved modified with bismuth you’re doing yourself a disservice. Around 35 yards it really falls apart and that little extra constriction really makes a difference
I only use BOSS bismuth #3, #4, or #5 because it is cheaper and I shoot 20ga through IM choke.
Gotta go with the speedshock. The price for performance cant be beaten but the TSS is also not bad, Feel like I would definitely like to use it for Turkey etc. Exactly like how you mentioned it.
I would like to see this redone with maximum performance at longer ranges. For example, a patternmaster duck/goose/extended range choke, Hevi Metal Longer range, and up the range out to 70 yards like these chokes and shots are claiming. Maybe even 3 1/2 loads. They say it's an effective range at 70, so I would be very curious how the wound channels look at that range.
I have the above setup on a Beretta A400 xtreme plus. I just need to find a place where I can get out there and try my shots out before the season hits.
Great video, very informative. Awesome setup!
My favorite load is the Federal Speed Shoks. I do however on hunts where I get a chance to shoot something I don’t always see I will use Boss 3in 1 1/2oz bismuth loads like I used to kill my tundra swan and pintails
Something true 100 years ago with shotguns that’s still true today. The better shooter you become through sporting clay practice, the more ducks you will bring home at the least cost. Ammo choice is important but not as important as a gun and choke that pattern the ammo and your accuracy.
I use speed shock regularly, but if I ever get a swan tag, I’ll spend the money on the tss for sure
I would say you picked the best shotgun on the planet for this video. I might have the same a5 and be a little biased, who knows...
On your first testing shot ,you had counted the bbs in the wings ,which is fine and dandy but getting shot in the primaries of the wings won't knock down or kill the bird ,I think that the targets should be remade with the bone and skeletal structure and not feathers . You want to break bones and hit vitals not wing feathers
Awesome channel thanks for all the reviews. Super helpful I was in the market for another shot gun and your reviews helped me make my mind up. If looking for more content would love to see a video comparing the basic duck ammo against each other. If you’re ever in Washington state on the coast we have pintails coming out of our ears and could get you on some.
I found these videos recently as I'm thinking about replacing my Browning Gold shotgun and watching reviews. Great content, on this subject I can only see spending six bucks a shot at sandhill cranes or trumpet swans or something.
Great vid and much needed. A lot of people do a vid about one of these not multiple. Much appreciated
I have used Kent Fasteel for a long time but after this case runs out I am going to switch it to the Boss stacked loads. I’ve seen feathers fly off honkers and keep flying and probably go die somewhere. I want that hard hitter/clean kill as much as I can afford it
Brings me back to three for three mallards with my 20 gauge 2 3/4” when I was a child.many 12 gauge 2 3/4 Remington 1100’s in the marsh also with cheap steel those days nothing fancy
Really good effort with your analysis. When the big switch to non-toxic shot came, the world didn’t end like many of the old timers predicted. We adjusted and changed. For those that did a lot of shooting, I couldn’t justify 3$ a shell regardless of anything else.
Patterns are still #1 requirement. 25 years later the dust has settled, Ive been (mostly) shooting the same stuff.
When shooting steel , speed is everything, and bigger shot. #2 3”, 1550 FPS ducks and geese., #4 3”,1550 early ducks geese, decoys.
The price is reasonable, so you shoot enough to get practical experience, and then confident that #2 will fold a greater Canada goose at 40yards.
Speed is NOT everything when shooting steel…
@@NikkaPleeease I shoot alot. I'm interested in anything you can add about shooting steel.
Because I shoot alot, I can't afford to shoot an lead equivalent non toxic shot.
What I have found is that I shoot a little bigger shot size that will pattern at the distance I have to shoot, and get the fastest shot, and 3" to increase shot count ?
@@peterparsons7141 I just wanted to reiterate that speed ISN’T everything when it comes to steel. Sure it’s quicker, but in my personal opinion, with a lot of the lighter loads & higher fps, your sacrificing pellet ct, accuracy, and potentially longer shots. Sweet spot is 1/4oz; 1350-1500fps. Everybody’s gun is diff though, you know? So what do I know… lol
Going to MO in a few months for conservation order snow geese... I think that Federal "blue box" will suit our group fine. Probably will opt for BB, using a steel-proofed IM / Light Full choke... Great video. Thanks much!
Interesting how the bismuth only penetrated about 1/2” more than the cheap speed shock. And the federal you tested is moving 100 fps faster than Boss I believe. Hard to beat the blue box for the $ I think there’s definitely some hype going on with boss.
Black Cloud or Hevi-Shot is what I've used for years in my Rem 1100 2.75
glad your back making videos. great info
I love your videos. You do a great service for consumers. I would like to see you do more tests with factory chokes. I have 3 A5 Wicked Wings and 1 Maxus Wicked Wing (I have four grandsons so they have shotguns when they are ready). The Banded chokes that come with the WW editions are made by Biley. I have found them to be better than any aftermarket chokes I have patterned.
I learned my lesson with steel. Switched to Boss 3 inch 3/5’s
I was hoping I would see the Winchester Super X shells in this video as I primarily use those shells
I haven't been impressed with the super x shells, if you look at the actual pellets they are very deformed and some of them are hollow.
I only shoot speed shok. My gun shoots it the best so thats what i shoot. Its a bonus that its the cheapest! Great video!
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Thank you for the exciting science behind the hobby. When shooting a duck, it all boiled down to experience and timing with some luck. An old-timer probably wouldn’t know the difference between the cartridges. However, Because he carries limited shells, he barely misses. Also, he is a loaner, so he only brings 6 to 12 decoys but still takes greenheads or other drakes home. 🦆🦆
It seems like other brands that make a bismuth load have been far more accurate/better patterns down range compared to anything steel. I was pretty set on going with bismuth next season until I saw this video and its making me think again. It's also making me think it would be fun to have money for TSS.
I shot black cloud for the first time last season. I'm disappointed to see the performance drop off at 40 yards. Maybe I'll save it for the timber this season and use old fashion round shot in the fields. I was thinking of grabbing bismuth for goose hunts, but the performance gain seems marginal. Maybe tugnsten would be justifiable for a Canadian goose hunt, but not a speck hunt. Lots to think about, great video! Would love to see a black cloud vs hex shot vs traditional next!
Great video! I would like to see the results with a full choke.
Nice video. I would like to see a video on reloading steel shot and the difference in velocities by changing a few gr of powder and how it changes the pattern. Thanks
Give me more shot. Speed really doesn't matter. If you want to shoot more ducks , learn to shoot & your shot to kill ratio significantly go up. Great video as usual
Real talk
That TSS doesn’t look like it would leave much meat left, shot concentration is good but when the majority of the meat is torn and riddled by shot. Please tell me the point of the TSS.
I seem to miss or cripple alot of ducks using the blackcloud.
But I crush them consistently with Kent faststeel and Winchester!
Plus way cheaper
Hello steve I have a question, is there a difference in performance between 3 and 3 1/2 Chamber , barrel 12ga using 2 3/4 cartridges??
It's probably going to vary based on the specific gun and shell. A lot of people have no problems shooting 2¾ out of a 3½ inch chamber and they seem to pattern well. But I've also seen people finding that short shells in long chambers can potentially damage the wad or deform softer shot, due to the shot expanding in the chamber then necking back down in the forcing cone. I'm not sure if there's any truth to that, or if it even matters. I think the only way to know for sure is to spend time patterning a specific combination.
Great video thank you for putting it out. I would go with the federal. I feel it was the most Consistent all around for the price point. Also I would like to see you do one of these with turkey loads since turkey season is right around the corner.