How one event changed Star Wars’s timeline forever
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- Опубликовано: 24 авг 2024
- Star Wars Legends and Star Wars Canon have some pretty distinctly different New Republic eras. But what's the ONE event that makes all of this possible?
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This is why we need clone wars style series’ that cover both during and post empire era stories. We’ve never gotten say a series with Han Luke and leia together in animation and it’s been free real estate for decades. Same for sequels if we could get both live action and animated series that cover those 30 years it’ll go a long way
I like how Star Wars is doing it now where they have different shows and games that cover small portions of the timeline. Leaving future creators more room to work within the canon, and the audience to see more in depth parts of each period instead of forcing it into one show.
What we need is a new episode 7
Completely new and outside the canon of the sequel trilogy
The sequel breaks the narrative and its main players beyond repair: they completely undo every character arc and plot point of the first six films just to tell the exact same narrative of the OT Verbatim
I really don’t see any problem with creating a multiverse: when Asohka is re-inserted into the corporeal world after Ezra plucked her out(into the world between worlds) logically if the timeline was purely linear with no alternate realities then she should have died when she returned.
Based on these events there would have to be alternate timelines and with that why not just have the events of the sequels take place within one particular timleine in which Anakin was never redeemed, Palpatine was never defeated and Luke most killed Vader in anger.
This is the only way the trilogy even makes sense not to mention doesn’t ultimately undermine the narrative of the saga
Ahsoka simply never died, that's how time travel works. Ezra always saved her
If she meant to die in her timeline then Ezra plucking her out would only delay her death
@@KRobinson-ko1ne she was never meant to die there.
It functions the same way as in Harry Potter, where time travel is an enclosed loop. Therefore going back in time or even just interacting with the past cannot change it.
Agreed. Palpatine not actually dying in ROTJ. One event ruined everything.
You know that that also happened in Legends, right?
I find it funny how Rey was basically hidden on a world that Palpatine would DEFINITELY have access to considering the observatory but since Jakku was designated basically as the galaxy’s backwater(less) world not even he gaf 💀💀😭😭
The capital of the U.S. is Washington D.C. But having scenes of people reporting to the FBI, CIA, or a Naval base in New York would not be unrealistic. But yes, it would be cool to mention Chandrilla in future post-RotJ scenes involving Mon Mothma at least.
Interesting point
My question is why make Chandrila the New Republic capital at all? Having it be the provisional capital makes sense, but just outright screwing over Coruscant, which had been the galactic capital for who knows how long? Sorry, I don't buy it.
@@occam7382 Sure, but I think they mention this in the Aftermath books (which I haven't read). It had something to do with being more inclusive and less centralized, so as to get buy-in and a more healthy input from many others. I think having it all centralized in one place lent itself to insular 'haves and have nots' or something like that. Maybe just a matter of trying to make the Republic be respectful of lots of worlds.
@@occam7382 I'm pretty sure the reason they established the moving capital thing is because they wanted to blow up the capital in TFA without blowing up Coruscant
As much as I don't like most of Disney canon, it does give us a pretty unique (for Star Wars) situation after TROS.
There's no government at all. The New Republic was wiped out by Starkiller Base, the First Order is gone. Sith Eternal are gone. There's no government. It's a blank slate.
Really eager to see what they do. I hope it’s new
There IS so much possibility
in my opinion they should keep it as that, a blank slate. No galactic government, good or bad, there to tell people how to live.
Balance was achieved I suppose
It really is a unique situation they should capitalise on. It’s essentially the star wars equivalent of the fall of Rome
While I like how you explained Cinder better than the actual lore did, and I appreciate it somewhat more now, I still wish the sequels had not basically repeated the whole Empire vs Rebels conflict. I still maintain that choice was lazy and I prefer having the Empire fragment into warlord territories that would continue to challenge the New Republic until the best of both sides would create a better galactic society through Hegelian Dialectics in the form of the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances, as what happened in Legends. I like how Legends acknowledged that galactic society had simply become too big to be ruled by a single entity. The reason why so many Outer Rim worlds joined the CIS is because the Republic had exceeded its grasp through relentless expansion over a thousand years, causing it to become decentralized and neglectful to the Outer Rim.
The idea that the reason the Republic fell being because the galaxy was too big to rule is an interesting argument that I haven’t actually heard before. This could totally be the case in the Legends EU, but I don’t think it was George’s intention as his issues with the Republic were more so analogous to the real with, with corruption and corporate interest rampant
@@StarWarsCentralized I mean, George's vision changes every now and then. Either way, it certainly fits the narrative about authority.
It really comes across as the force awakens being written as a carbon copy nostalgia bait to the original trilogy. And then for an explanation for how the galaxy came to be that way to be written retroactively to try and have it make sense.
* insert the "that's not Hegel"* meme here
If I had made the sequel trilogy the factions would be the same but the nature of the war would be totally different: An inversion/subversion of the previous 2 trilogies:
1) The First Order using strategic hit and run tactics against the Republic, conquering outer rim systems, having a droid army to compensate their small size while using Old Republic/Imperial-based walkers and ships fixing the problems of Imperial designs and tactics. Also using secret politician sympathizers and funding paramilitary groups for their cause+the advantage of having unreachable bases in the Unknown Regions.
2) The New Republic using large armies (in comparison to the enemy) of armor wielding multi-species soldiers, Separatist-based ground vehicle designs and some big star defenders leading their fleets of diverse composition fighting the attacks of the First Order and protecting planets outside their jurisdiction from them and the moral implications of this.
3) The Final Order would be implied to exist with small bits before appearing, they would be very similar to the Legends Dark Empire, it's armies implied to be clones, and it would be explained that the First Order would serve various purposes for the Final Order (as a distraction, to test superweapons and to funnel resources to it). The faction would take inspiration from Chaos from Warhammer, having entire factory planets in the Unknown Regions, many squads of force users and pirate fleets dispersed in the Outer Rim and many cults all across the galaxy.
4) Episode 7 would be similar except things like finding Luke right after leaving Jakku, episode 8 (3 years after in universe) would end with Luke's death, the First Order destroying the Republic and the reveal of the Final Order and episde 9 would end with the destruction of Exegol fragmenting the Final Order, ghost force Anakin defeating Palpatine again and leaving the galaxy on a similar state to the actual episode 9 except with an anti-villain Hux reorganizing the First Order to destroy Palpatine's influence and bring peace to the galaxy.
My main issue with Operatio Cinders is that imo Palpatine was too arrogant to even think that he and his empire could ever fail. Remember in ROTJ how he doesn't even expect Vader to betray him while he's torturing his son Luke. So that's why I'm not really on board with the idea that Palpatine would prepare a contingency plan, he never even thought that he would need it.
No, I think he was very aware Vader would, but perhaps it happened a lot sooner than he anticipated. He was a Sith. Sith are made to control. Vader was a sith. He would eventually want control from Palpatine.
He wasn't worried about it, though. Because he'd be back.
Glad to see more voices like this cropping up. Positive lore minded channels like this give me hope for the fandom.
With Kennedyfilm at the helm, there is no hope.
Maybe the reasoning of Coruscant being very prominently featured is because the de jure capital may be the current planet designated as the capital(directly post-cinder it's chandrila in this case), but Coruscant is the de facto capital
That may well be the case!
The Legends variant, with the galaxy dissolving into warlordism, makes more sense. Cinder itself now makes little sense, since Palpatine ended up not so dead after all.
he used cinder to both punish the galaxy and see who was truly loyal
Not quite, it took 30 years to build a new fleet to retake the galaxy. Palpatine had only 1 world while whatever galactic government would have the Galaxy. Burning down the Galaxy would make reconstruction difficult and give him time to create a perfect body. Plus with a burnt but peaceful galaxy they could rely on the republic to get complacent.
And while the Empires formal rule ended after the battle of Jakku, many areas held out for 5, 10, even 15 years. The Mandolorian takes place 4 years after the battle of Jakku. There is clearly still a portion of the galaxy under the empire control. Even in Mando 3 and Ashoka there's a Imperial concel and Empire loyalists.
The empire never ended, it just hid in the shadows until it morphed into the First Order.
Operation Cinder is probably one of the dumbest things to come out of Disney canon to justify the sequels. Why would all of these high ranking Moffs basically shoot themselves in the foot by torching most of the Empire? Are we to believe they would all blindly follow the idiotic plans of a dead emperor? And the New Republic just demilitarizing and no extra conflicts arising after the fact is unrealistic. There would have been many Moffs acting as warlords for years after the conflict. Also, is it really a better plan to torch all of your resources, flee to the unknown region to rebuild with no infrastructure or vast trade with the rest of the Galaxy, and come back thirty years later expecting anyone to support you? It's like if a certain mustache man from Germany fled to the Moon after nuking his own Rhineland and returning in the 1970s expecting to conquer everything.
I generally explain this in the video. Though I do think it happened far too fast
@@StarWarsCentralized I agree with you that it was too fast. But then again, I am not going to say Legends was 100% better having the Galactic Civil War going for another 15 years. I do think the whole thing should have at least been a few more years.
@@ulysses6325 I agree!
Definitely agree it happened too fast because Disney apparently thought the entire post Endor Galactic Civl War era could be summarized in one novel trilogy during a couple to few year time frame. That's why I'm happy for the Mandolorian and Ahsoka shows becuase they are showing growing Imperial remnants and warlords to make up for it.
@@TK--hf6db Absolutely. In fact, the Mandalorian hooked me back into Star Wars because I thought it was the beginning of a course correction showing that the Empire didn't just fall overnight. The first two seasons told a compelling story that didn't have to hinge completely off of the Disney sequels. Though I was disappointed with the direction in Book of Boba Fett to return Grogu to Din and also BOBF was just bad.
U know, a lot of people hate Operation Cinder and Palpatine's contingency plan. But that has to come from people being misinformed, biased or just from them lacking media literacy. Because Palpatine never cared abt the Empire, just like Dooku never cared abt the Confederacy. It was all a means to an end. Empire was good, but it was only useful while Palpatine ruled it. So operation Cinder is a genious plan on his part, totally on the level of Sidius's manipulations during the Clone Wars.
Totally agreed, In fact I admit that I prefer the general broad strokes of events from New canon then legends (although I love the Thrawn Trilogy and the Jedi games not so much of the dark empire comics though.) But I totally that instead of 1 year it should be 2-3 years or even 5 years after return of the jedi to make the end of war a lot more realistic?
The way I see it, the longer the time after Endor, the less of an impact Endor actually has on the war
@@StarWarsCentralized Good Point, Given what happened in Legends I think 2-3 years after Endor would work and make the fall of the empire much more believable instead of year 1 pius you still have the impact of Endor going around especially when it comes to Rebel/New Republic patriotism?
You could still have The Mandalorian still being set around 9-10 ABY as in the first season there was a mention of Galactic Recession granted 9-10 ABY would mean the New Republic would only control the galaxy at this point more then 3-2 or 4-3 years but still?
@@StarWarsCentralizedI’d go as far as to say in legends Lucas’s Saga in general really doesn’t have as much impact in the grander narrative of the timeline.
@@joeldavis9298 Despite being reference countless more times
There's a lot of stories to tell in the gap between 2 and 20 ABY. Just as the Clone Wars fixed a lot of issues and gaps in the prequel trilogy, there are a lot of unanswered questions raised by the sequel trilogy, especially Rise of Skywalker. Project Necromancer does a good job exploring the notorious "somehow, Palpatine returned" matter. But, there must be a lot of untold stories about amassing a construction crew and building a fleet of Star Destroyers armed with planet killer weapons on a planet that is nearly impossible to find without very rare Sith tools. Instead of a plot flaw, it's a writer's challenge, and I am eager to see how this is handled, and what stories come out of it.
The star destroyers were in the Vader comic so it's possible that they were built over the course of 50 years by sith cultists and loyal ship makers, They don't have a social life so they could spend 24/7 hyped up on sith alchemy building ships all day long
@@victorsardinia7120Moreover, it wouldn’t be out of the realm of possibility that Palpatine diverted imperial resources to aide the completion of the Final Order fleet.
“Instead of a plot flaw, it’s a writers challenge” I love that
Meh. All it was was another case of retroactively trying to justify poorly thought-out decisions made by JJ Abrams. They hadn't planned on Sidious returning, got cornered and then brought him back with no explanation. In order to make it work they had to invent all this other nonsense. It is the same exact thing Star Trek had to deal with after JJ butchered their timeline with major events for very short-term tension. The result to Paramount trying to make sense of an interstellar empire brought low by a nova so far from their capital, and when they have FTL travel, was just as stupid and poorly done. The Exogol plot point shoehorned into everything is simply stupid and ruins not only the ST timeline, but now the OT timeline. So stupid.
There are actually some really interesting hints towards the Emperor’s survival in TFA-era tie-in materials
I wish the New Republic were never demilitarised in the first place!
Me too. Apparently Mon Mothma has never heard of the phrase "if you want peace, you must prepare for war."
It does make sense as the old Republic did the same thing.
Now the Grysk can attack when both imperial remnants and republic are both weak, bring on an uneasy alliance with Thrawn!
They decentralized and left it up to the individual systems, but I think we've seen they just had some fleets guarding the core/ fighting pirates in the outer rim.
I do think that if Leia was elected First Senator she would've increased militarization and probed into the First Order Entity
@@GrantGraffwasn't it after centuries of peace and not a brutal civil war?
Palpatines contingency to "destroy" the empire and new republic during the battle of jakku as you explained makes no sense with how huge the empire actually was. It's literally not possible for the empire to have all their resources situated in one planet. Do people have any idea how absolutely enormous the empire and the galaxy is? For the empire to be present in the entire galaxy it has hundreds of thousands if not millions of naval vessels. This idea that the empire could and would have most of their forces in one battle is impossible and a logistical nightmare. Biggest battle of the war? Certainly. But this idea that most of both of their forces would be destroyed is just not possible.
That being said, you explain it way better then most of the canon did. But I still think the empire could've achieved exactly what you explained by just targeting mew republic worlds. If one is forced to commit atrocities you either go through with it and become more fanatical because there's no point of return as you're a war criminal or you condemn it and join the new republic as you explained as someone that still has the imperial ideals.
Tho it note worthy that a very good chunk of the Imperial Navy straight up defected during said year as many Imperials couldn't grasp the insanity that Operation Cinder is. This cause MASSIVE infighting and disarray among Imperial ranks.
I think it was more to destroy high ranking officers and leaders as opposed to destroying the entire fleet.
@@jamesxiaolong2199 still wouldnt make sense for almost the entire remaining officer corps including moffs, Grand moffs and governors to be present during one battle. One battle is impossible to do so much damage to the structure of the empire. The only thing that comes close is both destructions of the death stars. Legends makes more sense. All the warlords and splinter factions simply make way more sense then what we got in canon. Admittedly they have retconned their own continuity a bit with this because in the early Disney canon days the empire was supposedly defeated overnight after the battle of jakku. This was why the new republic demilitarized. Because the threat was supposedly gone. But they retconned it with mandalorian to still have imperial remnant factions and warlords. But due to the sequels having a demilitarized new republic they still had to go through with it so now the new republic looks even dumber.
@@Blackdeathgaming-yv1kk did you watch the video?
The capital is said to be shifting, so it’s consistent that the world would go from Chandrilla to Coruscant to Hosnian Prime with other worlds in between
If the Lucas group was smart, they would put together a group like they did for the High Republic. Take the era between the trilogies and work it out the same way.
That would be awesome!!!
But they are not, ®€t@®d€d in fact
Why would Palpatine want his empire destroyed, when his big plan was to come back in a cloned body? He would have to gain control again and lose many of his followers because he made it very clear how little he cares for them. Operation Cinder is just another inconsistent and stupid decision by Disney that shows how important it would have been to actually take some time and plan this through. Im not even a fan of legends but at least it makes sense.
My theory as presented in this video is that Palpatine’s plan was to refine the Empire through Operation Cinder, so its smaller remnants would be fully devoted and prepared for his return
lol “just take us to Chandrila please!”. Also, I really hope we finally see Gallius Rax. He’s a very important part of the year after Endor.
Two points against the criticisms of Operation Cinder’s “realism”
1) it’s based on the reality of the Nero Decree, where Hitler ordered the destruction of German infrastructure at the end of the war, nominally to prevent its use by the Allies, but in the view of many historians an act of vengeance on his part against the nation he felt had failed HIM
2)Palpatine doesn’t want something like what Thrawn tries to build or the Imperial Remnants under the Moff Council in Legends. The Empire only has value to him AT ALL to the degree to which it is an instrument of the Sith. Operation Cinder is meant to assure it is the Eternal Sith and the Final Order which will rebuild the Empire, not men like Thrawn (for example).
Love your second point! Very interesting to delineate the two ways the Empire could exist
Funny, because both points are stupid.
1) the nero decree was limited to military relevant infrastructure to slow down allied invasion. [Richard Overy, Blood and Ruins - The Great Imperial War, 1931-1945, 2021]
2) That does not work. The Empire was built upon power hunger. People like Tarkin, etc. will not throw away their power because the top-guy was offed. This is not how such things work. Instead they will even grasp more for power.
I’m gonna love watching your channel grow
Thank you so much for the confidence 😭😭
@@StarWarsCentralizedno problem just love when people like Star Wars for being Star Wars
Absolutely seconded!!
@@StarWarsCentralized You’re a remarkably authentic orator!!
@@nawafal-maajoun8181 Thank you so much:)
I think Operation Cinder makes sense to an extent: Palpatine had no plan for anyone else in power but himself. I bet Thrawn, like Gallius Rax and Gideon, will probably end up dead, and his army destroyed, to give the New Republic's illusions of peace.
I don't think it should go on for 20 years again. It worked better in Legends, but in the new timeline it wouldn't line up well.
I think the comics have been handling the tie-ins with the new films best.
In the Darth Vader comics, it's found that Sidious had already been operating on Exegol decades before Episode 9, with prototypes of Snoke and his Praetorian Guards being made, and the Star Destroyer Fleet beginning construction. It's a great comic that ties in with the sequels while building Vader's arc before ROTJ.
I'd like to see stuff like this. It feels natural and ties in with Cinder well, adding more stakes to the Emperor's defeat and the First Order's rise.
I also think we should see more stories set closer to The Force Awakens, like the short story collection "Before the Awakening". Perhaps an animated series exploring the lives of Rey, Finn, Poe and Kylo Ren before Episode 7 could be the next big one.
I absolutely agree! I’m so eager to hear about how Exegol’s side of things ties into Palpatine’s machinations post Endor in canon
Yes! It's hinted also in a recent novel that those experiments began perhaps longer before that. I'd like perhaps an exploration of some of the sequel characters and plot elements during the Prequel Era....perhaps Anakin and Obi-Wan try to find Exegol, only to be forced to return to the war. It's implied Maz Kanata knew Anakin, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, and I have a feeling that Dooku and maybe Grievous knew at least somewhat about Palpatine's future plans, given they planned for the Death Star as well.
I think the battle of Jakku works if they frame as "the last stand of any group big enough or legitimate enough to call itself the Galactic Empire" and spend time cleaning up minor warlords that had no long term legs to stand on.
I like the idea that Operation Cinder helped divide up the Imperial factions onto the sides of the fence they needed to be, but I also wouldn't put it past skeevy Sheev to put a self destruct option on his empire if he died unexpectedly. It was never much of a government in the first place, more a cult of personality on the biggest scale possible.
this is not how such systems work, unfortunately. Yes, there are some fanatics, but if your system works on powerhunger, like the empire did, those drawn into higher positions are power hungry. They will not throw away their power just because the top-guy was offed. Quite the opposite. Mutliple historical examples of that.
Such an awesome video, and really does line up with our anxiety/hesitancy around how Thrawn will be adapted and handled, especially with how Filoni and Favreau are open to slightly retconning canon and not setting specific dates for their shows.
The lack of Rae Sloane being mentioned also bites a bit, but hopefully Hux was simply appearing in her place to keep things as secretive as possible for the proto-First Order. Snoke and his attendants presumably also usurp Sloane at some point, but his injuries thanks to Luke also means he was in the main galaxy in some manner as well - does that mean he's got a chance of showing up at the end of the Mandoverse, or at least the first decade post-Endor?
We have the feeling that Thrawn will ultimately not be supported by Palpatine and his eventual forces, but it could be a question of if Palpatine's happy to see what Thrawn can achieve, or if he intends to have his agents undermine him at a crucial point. And will Zahn get a chance to continue the Grysk storyline if Filoni is ultimately in charge of presumably ending Thrawn's story in canon?
All questions we got, but happy to have your video to emphasize how effective and horrifying Operation Cinder really was for the official end of the Galactic Civil War!
Thank you so much!! I’m glad you liked it- and yes I share those same anxieties about future canon stories. Though I really do hope for this potential hinted Luke & Snoke story!
the charm of the original trilogy was that
you did not need to have the details of every element on screen to understand & keep following the story ...
now there's a backstory to even the most insignificant mention ...
it has become a bloated & boring mess
“Now there’s a backstory to even the most insignificant mention”.
As for me, that’s the entire freaking reason why I love this fictional universe so much (despite it being messy and contradictive sometimes). If there wasn’t such detailed lore for each political faction/conflict/spaceship/weapon, then I wouldn’t be likely to maintain my interest for SW longer than for several days (and I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one on this point). There are so many other works of fiction that don’t have any world development besides that in the main book/film/series, so, in my opinion, this elaboration is exactly what makes SW such an outstanding and unique fictional universe.
@@Graues.Dämmerlicht I think it's more like that it's great to have deep lore and easter eggs for the super fans, but things have to be accessible as well. A lot of people don't have time to devote to learning everything, especially if they didn't grow up with the franchise. Otherwise you risk the fanbase becoming a smaller and smaller niche with each entry.
This was a really good explanation of the purpose behind Operation Cinder. I'll admit, going into this I was a little confused about why Palpatine would destroy everything if he intended to come back eventually, but the idea of pushing people further into fanaticism while making others long for the days of the "good" Empire makes a lot of sense.
WOW, this is the first video I have seen from you and I am completely astonished 😱
Thank you!!!
Looking at both Legends and Canon, its exciting to often take in decades of post-Endor Star Wars stories, seeing different versions of what happened after those closing moments in RETURN OF THE JEDI. Dark Empire in LEGENDS has to be the most appealing.
Dark Empire is very special to me and I would love to cover it on this channel sometime!
I’ve always maintained that, just like the prequels, there is a good story behind the sequels. It’s a story of a republic, founded on righteous principles, slowly being corrupted by the forces left behind by the old system. All the while the remnants of the empire succumbs to further radicalisation and begin a campaign of rapid military buildup and espionage against the nation that defeated it.
Just discovered your channel and it is amazing! Would love a vid comparing the histories of the sith in legends vs canon, ik canon doesnt have nearly as much detail but i would love to see any major differences between the two
Thank you! Great suggestion, I’ll add it to my list!
While I understand your point on the Galactic Civil War lasting nearly 20 years it is a kin to the fact that the Korean War technically is still going because there has been no peace treaty. The Korean War has been been defacto over since 1953, even if technically it is still an ongoing conflict with peace treaty.
In Legends the Empire as a whole was no longer a threat to the New Republic with the fall of Grand Admiral Thrawn. Yes there were Imperial Warlords and the influence of Admiral Daala, but they were not part of the larger war between the Rebel Alliance/New Republic and the Galactic Empire.
That “one event” is George selling Star Wars to Disney 😭
I only just found your channel, and it's amazing to find a channel that seemingly treats everything in Star Wars as...Equal.
It's not "blah blah EU sucks" or "blah blah Sequels sucks". It's just talking about Star Wars. It's great! You've earned a subscriber.
Star Wars as a fandom needs more positivity.
Everything has warts. I'd like to celebrate the good things. I know there's pitfalls, missteps, and they should be called out. But. Not every single video has to be going on about why something sucks.
...Though I do still think the Aftermath books went too easy on Jar Jar Binks. That guy woulda been tried for essentially giving Palpatine his Reichstag decree.
Thank you so much!!! That’s really my goal with this channel, hence the name “Centralized”! So glad you like my videos so far
Hahaha the Jar Jar ending is a fun one… I’m actually going to make a short about it soon!
I personally don’t mind the idea of a slab and burn retreat (operation cinder) but in terms of world building it makes no sense. If a galaxy spanning empire was seemingly defeated within a single year of loosing its leader I would expect the seasoned politicians and generals from the rebellion to be exceedingly weary of their situation. It makes sense that the conflict would drag on for years, potentially decades past the point of the emperors death. You could say that it would be a given that the rebels would eventually win and that the death of the emperor signaled a major shift in the balance of power within the war. However, when you are dealing with a conflict that ostensibly spans thousands of worlds and maintains trillions of dissidents it would make more sense for the new republic to never really defeat the empire in its totality. Instead establishing itself as the dominate power amidst a sea of neutral systems, imperial holdouts, and crime syndicates. I feel a more sensible world building approach would have had cinder occur at the tail end of the conflict years after the death of the emperor. Wherein a core group of moffs and officers orchestrate what appears to be a finale defeat/ disintegration of the imperial military when in reality they shift essential personnel equipment material etc to designated fall back positions within unknown regions; from where the first order with eventually expand.
agreed, it seems too overbearing and weird lorewise to justify the horrid logic that they conjured in the sequels.
I really appreciate how open and accepting you are of the current Star Wars canon, to me, the new canon is the Star Wars I’ve grown up with and it’s been really disheartening to constantly listen to the community blindly trash everything that comes out all the time just because it isn’t legends. There are legitimate problems with canon Star Wars but there are also a lot of great stories and characters that I wish more people in the community would be open to
Thank you! That’s what I’m aiming for. Approach all stories without the baggage of culture war or anti-canon nonsense
Grown up 💀
before i watched this video i said " What did change the timeline forever, Disney? I think so"
Operation cinder was one of the dumbest ideas they could have made in the new Disney canon. Basically they kill off the empire via one big self destruct event. And since then the authors have to downplay this in order to still have some imperial antagonists in the episode VI to VII timeframe.
No, i very much prefer the old lore, where the Alliance and later the New Republic have to grind the empire down in an almost 20 year long struggle.
Oh, and the New Republics capital is Coruscant. This was established in the old lore and i am happy that they kept this in the newer shows like The Mandalorian etc.
I disagree
Yes, i thought so. ;)
I think, if you didnt grow up with the old Star Wars EU lore and experienced how it had grown over the years, then you wont have that much of an animosity towards the new Disney canon. I did however, and so i think that the new timeline is weaker then the old Legends post Endor timeline. And you can see that they brought up elements from the ole expanded universe eventually - like Thrawn - or making Coruscant the capital.
@@Ferox2121 While I may not have grown up with it, I am a huge fan of the old EU post-Endor period and have read almost everything up to the Unifying Force. They're incredible stories that deserve to be loved, but that doesn't make canon worse by any account.
@@StarWarsCentralizedbut all the different warlords and imperial splinter factions and the dragging on of the galactic civil war makes so much more sense then what Disney initially tried to do with the empire being defeated in one year post endor. We've had wars on earth that lasted longer then the galactic civil war and that is a conflict on one planet. Imagine a galaxy wide conflict. When the mongol empire fell lots of warlords rose up in its place. Or think about the carlists of Spain that for 2 centuries wanted to reinstate the carlist line. Why is it exactly that you don't like the prospect of the galactic civil war dragging on? To me it's the more realistic take. Even Disney realised this as they retconned themselves a bit as in the Initial Disney era the empire was supposedly fully defeated after a year and the new republic demilitarized because of it. They've shoot themselves in the foot because they realised that the empire being fully defeated in a year was stupid yet the new republic still had to demilitarise.
@@Ferox2121I have not grown up with the EU and I still think that Disney Canon and especially Operation Cinder is garbage.
I'm curious what the Aurabesh is below, is it your dialogue?
It just says Star Wars Centralized :)
I headcanon operation cinder the origins to Dark Empire
This is an amazing headcanon
I hope more channels like yours pop up as time goes on.
i don't see why cinder would be controversial, it's a pretty fitting idea if you think about it. it's both smart and utterly vindictive, like the man himself
fantastic video as always!! You are going to get much much bigger one day I know it
Thank you so much!
I like your take on this. It's measured and has a lot of meaningful points to the aformentioned operation cinder. Let me ask you this: Do you think there should be a movie or series centered around Jakku and the "End of the Empire"?
I would love to see something like that!! And thank you so much for the compliment. I’m glad you like my take
A series set during the Battle of Jakku would be incredible
If anything, one would think that Operation Cinder would lead to the EU timeline, and its decades-long conflict between the New Republic and the Imperial Remnant.
After Operation Cinder, there would likely be a bipartisan outcry to crush the Imperial war machine into oblivion until they didn't have the resources to EVER pull off such a stunt ever again. It would also likely ensure that former Imperial-loyal worlds like Kuat would become, if not pro-Republic, at least staunchly anti-Imperial, and it would take a lot of work from pro-Imperial politicians and officers who still believed in the concept of the Empire to try to repair that shattered image.
If there were a pivotal moment, it would be the one where the Republic stubbornly refuses to recognize the threat that an Imperial Remnant poses, and not only refused to pursue them, but also prevented member worlds from contributing a fleet that would have been able to resist an organization like the First Order in the first place.
For the most part, Darth Caedus's Galactic Alliance Guard fleet/army was likely roughly analogous to the First Orders strength, but faced a robust resistance in the form of an alliance between the New Jedi Order, the Corellian Confederation, and even the Bothans and Hapans joined in on the action.
If the Resistance had that much fleet strength in TLJ, they would have posed a serious threat to the First Order.
And to be fair, the New Republic had already suffered massively under surprise attacks from Palpatine's Dark Empire and Thrawn, so they weren't about to take any more chances. And the Vong would have changed priorities for the Imperial Remnant, and would have given an opportunity for politicians who wanted a more cooperative, or at least an unantagonistic relationship with the New Republic. Not to mention that they could not defeat the Vong on their own, although it might be entertaining to see the First Order try.
The Canon ends at the end of the 3rd Timothy Zahn book
3rd? Or 5th? Or 8th?? Or 11th??? He’s got a lot of good books
@@StarWarsCentralized Heir to the Empire trilogy.
Also, when was the Purge of Maldelor? During Conder? After?.....
I still don’t understand how Luke, and his new order some how didn’t stop this, and didn’t find out especially the rebels not finding out, and palpatine coming back was very lazy, and ruined the skywalker saga
Disney should have recast Luke, Han and Leia with actors in their 20s and made a movie trilogy set a year after Return of the Jedi. Hammill, Ford and Fisher could have been the narrators/ older versions of themselves telling the story to their kids in the present day. There was too much of a gap between ROTJ and TFA
I wish! And yes you’re right the gap is too big of a story shift
Leave Coruscant, take us to Chandrila please...ends up on Tatooine once again.
great video bro!
Thank you!
It’s crazy how this is one of the best videos I’ve ever seen, and it has less than 500 views
Thats such high praise!!! Thank you!!
Palpatine's floating hologram face on that droid is still one of the goofiest, and dumbest designs I have ever seen, lol
Why?
We should have let that mad man Lucas cook.
This event is selling star wars to disney
i love how you're non-biased and seem very civil
This means so much
I would have preferred if the power vacuum killed the empire by it collapsing in on itself and the new republic just acting as defenders but letting them kill each other with a few escaping.
Sure Cinder sounds like it but it was a continuation of the war. A civil war stickly in the empire as it falls apart and the new republic just sneakly gaining influence just sounds better.
The Clone Wars exists in both Canon and Legends.
Excellent video
Thank you!!!!
There is some legends thats mediocre, but some really great stuff too. I cant say ive seen anything in "canon" that isnt mediocre or slightly above average at best. Except maybe "Clone Wars" but that existed in the legends era.
Yeah, it was when Lucas sold SW to Disney.
YT analytics just dropped your channel into mhy queue. I like this video and your take, delivery and script. You did your homework and made this enjoyable and informative. I subscribed and will view your previous videos. Good luck with your channel. Best, Tony
Thanks Tony!
What an amazing video you did and I totally agree with you on the modern star wars content, While I understand why Filoni and Faverau want to bring Thrawn into the Mandoverse I agree that it totally contradicted the political state of the galaxy that was established by the Aftermath Trilogy I think The Lore Master made a video about this years ago the title is called ''The New Story star wars needs to tell that'll enrich post ROTJ content [Canon]'' you should check that video it is an amazing idea but in short they argued that and I feel the same that most of the stuff of Ahsoka, Ezra, Thrawn and Sabine, should be more standalone like say happening in the Unknown Regions (for the Grysk storyline.) or at least the New Galaxy not another thrawn trilogy (even though I'm interested to see Filoni film how close would it be for the original Thrawn trilogy and what would the differences?) The Same with Mando that show should have be standalone like Season 1 maybe something similar to George R.R. Martin Dunk and Egg short stories where you have small scale events granted you have the death of Baelor Breakspear and the second blackgyre rebellion but for the most part it is small scale compared to the main A Song of Ice and Fire Books.
I will admit and even Eckhartsladder pointed this out as well it almost as if Lucasfilm is ignoring Gallius Rex story or the character since Battlefront 2 (like he should have appear in that game as a hologram but still.) Hell we don't know what he looks like which is the same situation with Cal Omas from Legends. Hopefully he appeared in the Post Return of the Jedi comics from Marvel which interesting to think about as you point out in you're video at least the Alphabet Squadron trilogy was able to find loopholes so that book trilogy could fit with everything that established from the Aftermath Trilogy. Also with the new book Star Wars: The Rise and Fall of the Galactic Empire by an actual historian Chris Kempshall coming out in July maybe we could get an illustration of Gallius Rex?
While I admit I understand why Filoni and Faverau want to show us Coruscant in Mando S3 and Ahsoka outside of Andor there was a drought of lack of Live Action Coruscant since revenge of the sith so I would give them that credit but still I think Coruscant should be only featured in the Pershing episode while Chandrilla or Nakadia should be the planet that Captain Teva go there for asking the New Republic as well as the planet where Hera received her trial.
Speaking about Coruscant you should do a video on Coruscant's fate in canon and legends as you're next video after this one and I will admit this maybe a bit controversial but I actually really like the fate of Coruscant in the New Canon? as it reminded me of the decline of influence from real-life rome and Asimov's Trentor. Like the whole moving of the capital from Coruscant reminds me of a lot of when Constantine moves the capital of rome to Constantinople. In fact I kinda like the idea of Coruscant having it's own decline similar to Rome and Trentor after their own respective empires decline and finally fall into ruin.
For what it is worth I think it is a neat development, Coruscant was a product of the high Republic. Arrogance and excess with corruption buried and hidden under the surface. The Empire was an authoritarian rule that probably did nothing but increase the income disparity between the upper crust and the lower levels.
When the Empire was destroyed, the new republic was forged in fear. They didn’t want to repeat the circumstances that led to the Empire in the first place. They didn’t want to have a military and risk becoming the Empire. They didn’t want to have the government be based on any singular planet in fear of a super weapon like the Death Star being used against them.
When they moved the capital off world it was the last straw. The empire probably had dismantled laws and programs that protected the people of the city. Without the stormtrooper presence, organized crime would have been able to creep out of the lower levels and begin taking over parts of the surface. Then, without the senate being based there much of the elite class would have fewer and fewer reasons to live there. All that would be left at that point would be corrupt mega corporations, large scale factory operations, and various types of organized crime.
That be said I will agree that the planet should appear in The Rise of Skywalker as one of the ideas that I like in Duel of Fates is definitively Finn leading a uprising on Coruscant as it was under the controlled of the First Order.
Absolutely agree on so much of what you said! And that Coruscant video idea is wonderful, thank you very much for it! I really appreciate the depth of your comment
I honestly don't agree that it contradicts the state of the galaxy in the Aftermath Trilogy and if it did, it's such a easy thing to handwave in a sourcebook. Personally I don't think it's that big a stretch and you can't logic your way in saying the New Republic moved the capital back to Coruscant from this year.
As for you point about Thrawn, Ezra etc...I mean...I do think it's Stand Alone though. I never once thought the Mandoverse is gonna directly tie-into the Sequels as people prefer.
@@StarWarsCentralized You're welcome!
Somehow Palpatine returned....
While I do agree with your points I still liked operation cinder and they way they introduced it was decent and I enjoyed myself
I agree with you!
Imagine if they had planned just 6 months ahead after purchasing this $4000000000 franchise!
Filoni is just not caring about what to do with the Canon. Therefore, Corusant is the New Republic center in his series
I think earth bane is still cannon in the SW universe
He is!
5:20, which comic is that from?
Shattered Empire #4!
Shattered Empire #4!
yeah it's called the Walt Disney Corporation
I like the idea of Operatian Cinder. İts also in character for Palpatine.
But it is greatly contridicts with Thrawn's rise to power. And ı really hate it when it is used for the justfy existince of First Order. Since you know all of it will be wasted with ROS.
İt would be much better ıf Thrawn took advantage of the Operation Cinder to take over the empire instead.
PLEASE MAKE MORE VIDEOS!!!
Yeah, Disney taking over Changes everything
Why not May 4th, 2014 indeed (Coincidentally)!
The sequel trilogy book covers go hard
Thank you, my passion project
1:30 Clone Wars DOES NOT exist in legends due to the fact in contridicts damn near everything else IN legends.
Hey, I agree. But officially, it unfortunately does. I much prefer the Legends accurate 03 clone wars & multimedia project
@@StarWarsCentralized its only that way cause its before disney, they cant both be legends it literally cant work lol
No, it was Legends canon far before the Disney acquisition
@@StarWarsCentralized Because it was retconned by a cowboy who thinks you can survive a lightsaber stab & has Ahsoka not wanting to kill clones yet lets darth maul lose on them lol
Legends is much better than cannon.
I love both!
That's why Legends was the best!
I like both canon and legends
Based take SWC
@@StarWarsCentralizedfair enough.
It’s not that unbelievable.
Star wars's cannon began in 1977 not 2014 lol.
And it ended in 2012
Facts @@KRobinson-ko1ne anything Disney makes is a perversion of the actual canon
@@onlygoodgamesofficial And this alone is why I'm never selling my work to Disney. They wanna be in control of Star Wars, fine, but they won't be in control of my work.
Star Wars canon existed from 1977-2014. Legends (or the EU) existed from 1978-2014. Disney Star Wars canon has existed from 2014-now.
@@onlygoodgamesofficial yeah im pretty sure bob iger himself is all like "mwahahaha how will i kill star wars this time"
If the comics do go post Endor i could see them brining in Afteramth elements. Books and Comics are prettty good at adhereing to books and comics. It's the On Screen stuff that is allowed al to more leeway to do whatever it wants more or less.
That the same thought I have they could do the same thing Alphabet Squadron Trilogy not to mention that the first story in the Post Endor timeline is The Book ''The Princess and the Squadron.'' so you could have stories mostly focus on the main galactic politics, (Like the sighing of the Declaration of a New Republic on Endor that we don't see in The Aftermath Trilogy or the princess and the smuggler book.) Luke adventures and Hell maybe give us a natural conclusion of the Iron Blockade and the fate of Governor Ubrik Adelhard along with seeing the rise of The New Separatist Union, The Confederacy of Corporate Systems, and The Sovereign Latitudes of Maracavanya along with the Pirate Nation that was mention in Mando S3?
We NEED to see the Iron Blockade again in a readily consumable story!
@@StarWarsCentralized Me too, It was sad to see Star Wars: Uprising shutdown because unlike Star Wars Commander or Hunters at least Uprising had a canon story pius I find the characters like Governor Ubrik Adelhard and Deathstick to be awesome additions to the lore. Like Uprising have potentinal to be a great game in fact had it been a MMO game instead as a Mobile game I think it would do a lot better. But besides that I think we need an actual story of the Iron Blockade either as a novel or comic series or even a novelisation of Uprising something akin to the novelisation of God of War (2018) and Halo: The Flood.
That’s a great point! A novelization would rock
Exactly, I wonder if it does happen at some point in the near future I wonder who would you pick as author of this Uprising novelization?
The problem with the new Disney Star Wars timeline is that compared to the legends material, it's just boring. As you mentioned the way the Empire fell in Disney lore happens far too quickly because even after the defeat at Endor, the empire was still the dominant military force in the galaxy with thousands of ships and worlds under their control. it just doesn't make sense that they would lose most of that on one year. This would be the equivalent of the US Navy which has around 700 - 800 ships and losing most of that in a year which won't happen. Look how long it took for the Roman Empire to fall, the real troubles started in the 370s AD and led to Rome being sacked in 390, 410, 455 and 472 AD. Even then the Empire went onto exist as the Byzantine empire until 1453. I get that Disney was paving the way for the first order and wanted to quickly make way for them by having the empire fall rapidly but they could have done it in a better way. Just think about all the great legends material that we lost such as the Rogue Squadron X-Wing books, Thrawn trilogy, Dark Empire Comics, Jedi Academy and also the New Jedi Order books, and also not to mention a lot of the characters that came along with them who are now confined to legends. I'm sure not everyone would agree and each to their own but honestly I just think the writing and the way Disney has handled the timeline has been lousy and incoherent. You only need to watch the sequel movies to know this and honestly, the sacrifice of the legends material certainly wasn't worth the garbage we got.
You make some good points, but I disagree with your fundamentals. I really don’t find it boring, especially not the lack of more Galactic Civil War post 5 ABY.
@@StarWarsCentralized Sure I respect your opinion and there are some stories which I was not a fan of, in particular Palpatine coming back as a clone, which Disney unfortunately also decided to go with. Even George Lucas himself said that the EU existed in a separate universe and was never intended as canon. I feel like the main problem with Disney's timeline is that there is little room for imagination which explains cancelled videogame projects like 1313, cancelled Darth Maul game, unlike with the EU timeline which saw a slew of video games especially in early to mid 2000s like the Rogue squadron games, Jedi Knight games and arguably two of the greatest Star wars games ever released Knights Of The Old Republic 1 and 2. You also have to take into account Disney's greed like for example releasing to many shows on their streaming channel which led to over saturation and lack of interest in the brand. They also increased licensing costs on video games companies to use the Star Wars licence from 20% to 33% which led to the cancellation of the EA mandalorian FPS game. Overall I don't mean to come off as negative and trust me, if I want to scratch the Star Wars itch I usually just play the old video games. Let's hope the upcoming Mandalorian film as well as Thrawn and New Jedi Order films end up being better that their sequel trilogy was. Thanks for responding and keep up the great work with your channel.
3+ minute's to get to the point
I like to include background, but thank you for your feedback, I might not need that background!
@@StarWarsCentralized I understand that, I read a lot of the lore myself but that was just redundant. It was a good video it's just their was a bit to much fluff in the explanation
"Star Wars's" 💀
That’s how you’d properly say something belonging to the brand “Star Wars”
Idc what people say the formation of the empire to the first order and palpatine being behind everything all along still with the cloning and snoke genius! Don’t get me wrong the sequels are garbage and last Jedi is a shit stain to the franchise and Rey a terrible character but besides that I think the actual plans palpatine had is interesting
That was the moment Disney acquired the franchise.
Legends is my canon, the sequel movies are fan fiction in our house, but we do love the new Disney+ shows.
Well I love the sequels
No the plane makes PERFECT sense with palpatine’s character and is one of the better editions in canon
this guy is gonna become the new eckharttsladder
Woah this is a big statement! I mean, I’d love that tho 😭
operation cinder is the absolute worst piece of dogshit lore to come from disney
ok I disagree
One event = Disney
Star Wars‘ timeline.
One event changed starwars timeline? That is easy. It is when Disney bought LucasFilm. That changed everything, forever.
What JJ Abrams did to Star Wars is why I have officially disavowed the so called canon stated in this video
Then why are you watching this video?
@@StarWarsCentralized I wasn't. Had it on pause while making the comment. Oh the wonders of technology
Legends will always be better in my opinion especially because of The Force Unleased and Star Killer
How do you feel about The Force Unleashed 2?
it’s called disney owning the franchise
I like new canon a lot
This is the most absurd nonsense, thus making it the perfect setup for the sequel trilogy.
when did Operation Cinder account for it being gay and stuff?
“wwaaaahhhhh waaaaaaahhhhh!!!” (That’s you, a baby, crying)
The sequels aren’t canon. End of story.
They are to me!
If canon is whatever you want it to be then what's the point of it anyway. You choose what you like but canon is canon
The Disney movies are NOT canon.
Yes they are
@@StarWarsCentralized no