One thing that I really hate about trying to train in BO6 Zombies is how the Zombies spawn. If you go just a little bit away from the horde, they will always despawn and spawn in front of you, including the boss Zombies, causing you to always be on the run, because you don't have any time to breathe due to how many are spawning directly in front of you. Also, using the traps suffer from the same issue. Only a few Zombies will end up going through the trap, the rest will despawn and spawn behind you as you watch the trap.
@@Vintagesonic1 which traps tho? dafgs dont have this issue cus they cover massive areas, and the tentacle traps dont really have this either cus theyre in decent training areas, so you can just slide under them to have them kill zombies
Yeah, I remember BO4 being heavily criticized for this, but BO6 is a comical escalation of this problem. It is a very cheap way of making the gameplay more frantic at the cost of actual depth. You should be able to navigate the maps outside of the most open spaces without the entire horde instantly respawning in front of you. You barely have to move before they start pouring out of the spawns on the other side of the room.
Yeah I totally get it but you have to remember that the speeds at which we move around now are far faster and more refined than the earlier zombies and, the fact that there's 50zds on map at a time if you killed one another would spawn somewhere near you factors in also. I do prefer the old ways of having a whole horde follow you around the map if needed but cod just wants you to be engaged all of the time.
@ There’s got to be a more refined solution. It is, at the very least, over-tuned. Maybe if there was a cap where only 25 of the 50 zombies are free to respawn very aggressively, they could maintain some of the strategic control of the old games without being too easy.
@@Doughnuts it’s an opinion I’ve had for ages, cause it allows people to still easily grind opal while keeping their spawns in check. But people want the total manglers gutted when this is a simpler solution that doesn’t make those grinding for camo’s groan in annoyance and head to directed as a result 🤣
I like this idea. Special and elite enemies are cool. It's not necessarily annoying to have a lot in general, what's annoying is how many you can see at once. I like having them mixed in, but it is a bit much when you are actively dealing with a bunch of them at once alongside the usual horde.
I disagree, weapon damage should be buffed, Because I actually tend to not apply Ammo mods on my weapons because Ammo Mod Kills cancel out Heashot Kills, I just wish weapons did more damage in those later rounds!
i think another thing that aids in it being brutal is how points are gained now back in a bo2 or some such youd see your points skyrocket for firing into a horde, and that felt GOOD now, on a high round, you dont get that anymore, so you dont get the gratification, it just feels like trying to break down a brick wall with your fist
god forbid you go down and have to buy back perks or you bleedout. I played until round 50 and with 25k points, you cant pack a punch to do enough dmg to buy perks, and you cant survive with perks long enough to pack a punch tier 3. If there was a point gun, you could train with an smg, spray, and buy back your stuff. Highrounds is either you survive and never go down, or youre fucked.
@@youtubehandle-u2l yeah that’s why I only ever run 4 or so perks, quick revive, jug, speed cola, and stamina up. Otherwise it’s a massive reinvestment
@@the-real-et I understand what your saying I actually get that gratification in bo6 when I kill zombies with killing a horde with double points and get only headshots it feels great and a few thousand points
Personally, the biggest problem I have when playing around Round 40ish, it's the new ponts system. Not gaining points per shot makes impossible buying ammo or even perks if you go down and have a crappy gun
I also miss the old ammo system. Honestly imo it was better but this new system allows players who want to use one shot kill guns just as viable. Because every gun gains the same amount of points per kill.
I agree that there's an issue when it comes to getting ammo, but the change is good overall. You should be incentivized to get kills, not prolong rounds and waste ammo.
@@swish8823 You never had to do that, only if you felt like minmaxing the first few rounds. Not doing it isn't gonna be an issue since you have a good while before zombies become an issue
Maybe make double tap cost 2 bullets therefore increasing damage at the cost of ammo depleting faster. Cause just giving free double damage isn’t reasonable.
I’d be fine with the manglers if I didn’t feel like my gun just stopped working… when the ray gun on pack 3 needs 5 shots to kill 1 zombie, that becomes a problem. A “wonder weapon” isn’t so wonderful anymore.
god man this is honestly my dream video on zombies I've always wanted someone to make it or do it myself but you nailed absolutely every point with facts, precison, lack of bias or acknowledging when you have bias stellar work man, praying kevin drew sees it
Chart only shows damage per Zombie, not a horde of 50 zombies. So ammo per kill should be a nice chart to see at levels 0 to 50. don't think it will be possible! but thanks for the hard work!
I dont mind super sprinters and more zombies but i feel like they need to reduce the durability of zombie armor and reduce mangler spawns OR reduce how often they blast OR the distance they can blast Edit: Thank you very much for the hard work and spreadsheets. Great video as always! 🍩 Edit #2: I got to the part where you mentioned removing armored zombie's helmets. I like that idea. Treyarch! I hope you're listening!
I feel like just adding a hard cap on how many bullets are needed to break armor is a better balance than just removing the helmet. But I'm all for any solution. Honestly the low damage at high rounds doesn't bother me much, as annoying as it feels, it's really always been like this, since WaW.
@@notatypobrutha I feel like most people who even play CoD understand that aiming for the head is how you do the most damage, not even just CoD but Zombies in general. Honestly I don't think armored zombies are even necessary, but it is what it is.
@seang1032 i don't mind the helmets, I wish they constantly needed the same number of bullets to break each time. 2 on the heavy, 4 on the armored/military. When it takes 20 bullets to break one helmet, and then one shot to kill that's insane. My highest is 46, I don't like using wonder weapons. But box/wall/initial weapons just don't work past 30.
I think the solution might be a perk that increases bullet penetration, so that it might take longer per zombie, but you're hitting more than one. That or another PaP level
I feel like the range of the mangler cannon also increases by round, one round ill be at a safe distance and the next round ill be further away but still get hit by it, and it seems like when there is 4-5 shooting at once they just go through all objects including busses
@@rockstarrecovery1694 either that or straight up range, like i said they will spawn outta the window outside of bank training spot inbetween bowling alley and bank, and ill be safe all the way to gobblegum machine until like round 30-32ish then it seems like all their blast reach all the way to the drop off back into spawn and im just like bruh i was safe from this shit last round what happend
I've been hit essentially across the map on liberty falls, the mangler was at the stairs spawning in and I was at the burning car pile and he hit me from the middle of the stairs when he fired
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way about manglers. I miss having consistent circle trains and some friends after round 40 don't want to play zombies anymore because manglers are so unmanageable. 2 at a time would be doable but it's turning people away
@@Average_Internet_User101 that's basically what a player needs to do to push for 50. Watching Insomnia Virus get to 999 is how someone needs to play from 50 on
Remember that in old zombies standard weapons were NOT useful in high rounds at all except for point hoarding. Even BO3 relied on AATs to keep regular guns "relevant". I think that what they're trying to do this time around is to make standard weapons USABLE at high rounds, while keeping them weak enough to hit that old school feel, so that you gravitate towards WW, traps, etc. Mutant injections aren't any more of a crutch compared to AATs if you ask me, so it's more a matter of preference. Now, I do think a zombie health nerf would be healthy for the game, cause currently they're not hitting that sweet spot I'm talking about, it more so feels like they're fooling you into thinking your gun is going to be somewhat useful, only to be a complete waste of resources and time.
@@raven_CwCFR alternate ammo types. Bo3 had thunder wall, blast furnace, turned, fireworks, and dead wire. All of these triggered an aoe effect that did infinite damage.
@@brayachdragonbane7529 yeah exactly, the armor is the main culprit, if you do on average 51k dps and zombies cap out at 50k that is good 1 kill per second which doesn't feel terrible for rounds 50 or 999. The problem is the armor taking that number, smearing shit all over it and making it 5.6k dps.
This guy has some great content, it would be hilarious if he was at the office and his boss was like “hey Chris, do you think you can get these docs done?” Comes in his office just to see him working on this thinking “wow this guy is always working”
I think if they flipped the mangler arm asset and had some melee only manglers it would completely solve the problem. Let’s say even at the highest rounds the game only allows three ranged manglers MAX but can spawn a bunch of melee onlys, you can still train, you somewhat have to deal with horde disruption, health pools stay, etc. maybe as a compromise they also have an hvt boss round every 15 or so with a bonus reward to give it that MOTD & ORIGINS feel
I know that a lot of people have a problem with the manglers (me included) but i feel like another big issue, specifically with liberty falls, is that the abomination is such an annoying elite enemy to kill and takes so so so much ammo to do so while giving you so little in return, that paired with the large hordes of zombies with high hp and insane mangler spawns in the higher rounds its just so insufferable to deal with, not to mentioned as you go higher in the rounds even more can spawn. I don't really think there is a way to fix this because at its core the abomination is just a really poorly designed enemy, it takes the influence of a margwa where it has 3 heads that open periodically and whatnot you can destroy for big damage, but the abomination is CONSTANTLY charging at you with its mouths closed, it can turn and charge on a dime, and with higher rounds the ability to reliably hit it in its critical head points becomes so difficult because of the large hp hoard which it hides behind that paired with mangler spam makes it just this looming threat you have to dump everything into or suffer the consequences. The high rounds is just not fun because where in older games you have to actually play against the zombies, in this game its just playing against manglers and abominations every round and seeing how often you can open the crafting table for a killstreak before your game crashes or you die. This is also just a bit of a personal annoyance, but i think vermins/parasites do a very unneeded amount of plate damage while also being very fast. Having to deal with the horde, mangler spam, and abomination/amalgam every few rounds should be a fine amount of stress on staying alive with out the need to worry that a vermin will jump attack you, attack instantly again, and then youre already almost half health with a basically broken plate.
Fucking preach. The video is well put edited and written while also being nerdy with all the data necessary for your well argued points. Keep it up. I LOVE IT!
I genuinely love your idea for armoured zombies without helmets. Super sprinters, with a cap of 2 manglers at a time and no armoured helmets would feel perfect for high rounds
And why is there so many! At round 132 I started counting them and got like 184 of them in a single round it lasted 5-6 minutes while a normal round last like 2 at most
They are weaker and do more damage, they also don't attack your armor. You can have 3 plates and they'll still only hit you for your HP, but their attacks are super easy to avoid. In zombies they did a good job in terms of "monster" creation.
@@FrankyWillz yeah then they buffed its attack range making them annoying as hell in small areas, go and try to melee a few, and they never stop scaling for some reason. They are easy but super unfun, just sit in the jet gun room for 5mins shooting them at the door, they need to cap the rounds and make them shorter its just a boring time sink.
I think a way they could fix Mangler spam is if they can find a way to make it so that if there are more than 4 manglers on the map at a time they can't shoot their canon. If they basically got relegated to extra heavy armored zombies with faster running and harder hitting that would bw okay the constant projectile spam is what really annoys me. Or make it so up to 4 manglers can shoot that would be better. Personally i just don't like ranged attacks in zombies
This could work, tweak the cannon so it only stuns, and have a max of 2-3 on the map but have the rest in reserve for when you do get them. Like take one down another takes it's place kind of deal
So real. The presence of super-sprinters, armored zombies, manglers, elites, and aggressive spawns make high rounds horrible. High rounds are awesome, but the routine is what makes such long-form gameplay fun. BO6 is a constant ADHD trip (I would know), and it's insanely tiring to do that for longer time periods.
People have two opinions on the point system, and it can be easily broken down into two groups with different scenarios. Group 1 that exfils below round 30 and group 2 for 30+. Group 1 says point system is balanced. 1. The argument goes, “its perfectly normal because it gives the stronger weapons the same point earning ability as weaker ones. “ Back then, someone might skip over using a shotgun/sniper early on in favor of using a weaker weapon, like an smg to earn points. However, with 2/3 weapon slots, it’s perfectly reasonable to save the shotgun/sniper/wonderweappn for later rounds in order to maximize points. I see people saying “the new point system is fine” but a real issue is when someone bleeds out or loses all their perks on round 30+. Now that SMG that was useful on early rounds is becoming less effective, and you run out of points quickly buying back perks or pack a punching. Group 1 may not have an issue with the point system, since zombie health is lower, its easier to recover from a bleedout. Group 2 is absolutely positively FUCKED. Group 2 loses perks, now blows 15k buying back perks, and their weapons dont do anything, thats where a point gun would come in super handy. For example, I was playing w randoms to round 55, and one of them had the misfortune of bleeding out on round 40. I ended up bleeding out too. Wed respawn and have 20-25k points to buy back our stuff and get back, but we quickly realized the points given wasnt nearly enough to help out. By respawning with only legendary weapons, It was either a toss up between “Buy PAP2 and pray it does enough dmg to buy back perks” or “Buy perks and use PHD/traps to slowly earn enough points to pack a punch “ Well, 3 of us ending up testing out everything before realizing we were fucked. Not enough dmg to earn points, not enough survivability with perks to make enough to pap. The game ended with one guy training and reviving us with the jetgun/raygun, while 3 of us died repeatedly trying to figure out how to recover from bleeding out.
Straight up, I played bo1-bo2 bo3 and skipped every cod til now. Ive only ever played zombies. Now im seeing comments saying “old point system sucked, you couldnt use strong weapons because you didnt earn any points with them.” but they always forget that you didnt HAVE TO use those 1-shot kill weapons if you had mule kick, or a second weapon slot. This current point system is useful early on, sure. Yea, maybe you can use weaker weapons and not be at a point disadvantage, sure. But those high rounds with randoms/friends becomes FUCKED, its a complete point drought, theres no way to do enough dmg to kill a zombie, earn points, and buy back stuff IF you go down/bleedout. i spent half an hour trying to use PHD flopper to try to earn points to pap, then id bleedout, respawn with 25k and try to pack a punch. Difference was, pack a punching was useful but not if you can outrun super sprinters. I got so annoyed playing, i realized theres no point to going to highrounds because randoms will disconnect once they realize they cant recover, and friends get tired of going down and not being able to do anything. Bring back the old system, bring mule kick
Straight up, I played bo1-bo2 bo3 and skipped every cod til now. Ive only ever played zombies. Now im seeing comments saying “old point system sucked, you couldnt use strong weapons because you didnt earn any points with them.” but they always forget that you didnt HAVE TO use those 1-shot kill weapons if you had mule kick, or a second weapon slot. This current point system is useful early on, sure. Yea, maybe you can use weaker weapons and not be at a point disadvantage, sure. But those high rounds with randoms/friends becomes FUCKED, its a complete point drought, theres no way to do enough dmg to kill a zombie, earn points, and buy back stuff IF you go down/bleedout. i spent half an hour trying to use PHD flopper to try to earn points to pap, then id bleedout, respawn with 25k and try to pack a punch tier 2 and survive with no perks. Its a shitshow at high rounds, I got so annoyed playing, i realized theres no point to going to highrounds because randoms will disconnect once they realize they cant recover, and friends get tired of going down and not being able to do anything. Bring back the old system, bring mule kick
You're delusional, I regularly go over 75+ and the points are fine. The people who go down a lot are the ones who complain because they burn through their points
Dude, spot on. Playing solo on Liberty Falls and Terminus, it takes a little bit of getting accustomed to the areas, for me at least, after that, somebody better help these zombies, LoL. Knowing about all you have at your disposal and knowing the zombies patterns, is why I don't complain about Manglers Abominations, or Nathan. I wholeheartedly agree about essence gains but the absurdity of a 500 essence increase price of subsequent perk purchases is overboard, unless in the future Reloaded Season updates we get augments or an attachment to increase essence gains.
@@huntermccarthy3995 Exactly. There are actually too many points if you ask me. The essence isn't even an issue once you get to certain rounds. The currency for high rounds is salvage. These kids are really bad at the game if they think this zombies is too hard 😂
well thats exactly how it would be for terminus and liberty falls since thats how dlc perks get implemented, problem is they would make a machine for it in future maps, it would feel weird if they didn't and people would be unhappy to not have a machine even tho it would destroy early-midgame balance. They could make it like old double tap and have it increase only fire rate and maybe have its augments give a major damage boost to armor and special/elites.. idk.
Another thing I find tedious is how narrow walkways get with so many zombies compared to the hit radius to the mangler cannon blast. I love getting away from a horde of zombies just to get megaclapped by four mangers all shooting at once. And you either have to take the cannon or get eaten by the zombies. Also it feels like the hit radius of zombies gets higher too.
I think the best "fix" or possible solution would be to add Double Tap but only have it accessible through the wunderfizz on every current map and maps afterwards. This would mean that at round 25 (when the Wunderfizz spawns) if you need that extra damage you can purchase Double Tap. Alternatively even make the Wunderfizz appear even later at round 30 since round 1-30 is already extremely easy and damage only starts to fall off past 30. I'm not saying this would fix high rounds, but Treyarch could do their own testing to see how this works in practice. (even though Treyarch doesn't playtest BO6, evident by the numerous bugs)
I’ve attempted round 51 terminal dark ops three times now. And all three times I’ve either encountered a huge crafting and utility glitch where I can’t use scorestreaks, gums, and I don’t get any armor animations and sometimes even can’t use lethal and tactical, also not being able to craft at the table, or I get phases into a piece of debree or a wall. Not to mention the xp I get a pitiful amount of xp for exfilling at those rounds. Only 4-5 battle pass tokens and around 3-6 ish levels. It’s absurd it’s like I’m not getting any good rewards or even any good gopple gums. I hardly get 4 gums per round 50 and they’re all trash. For getting to such a high round and to get glitched out and fucked over, and then to get no rewards for completing it. It’s absolute bs. Like i absolutely love zombies and the game is good for the most part but like to get absolutely pitiful rewards for the amount of difficulty and bugs I encounter just feels like garbage. They need to fix this shit
This video really shows everything Me and my other 2 friends did a round 51 boss. I couldn't recover. We didn't have enough money at the end to finish the boss so we unfortunately failed. I agree with the points that you mentioned in the video and what could be improved.
I feel like a kinda stupid simple, band aid fix would be more pack a punch levels and changing the cost scaling. It would be more like 5k -> 10k -> 20k -> 40k. It would increase raw damage of the guns and also not have a totally awful cost to get each pack level.
Thank you. Also, the head hit box on heavy armored zombies is completely broken/inconsistent. On top of taking several shots to break the helmet, i can't even get crit hits on them as a reward.
when they get close to me it is literally impossible to hit them in the head, I have to back up and aim for the neck or chest and it just counts as a headshot, it is so noticeable.
Yep. Noticed this over and over when I was abusing the boat pile up. Also the fact that so many people would rather sit in a pile up than actually play the game is very telling of how annoying and tedious this version of zombies is.
i noticed after hitting them on the head they move their head like a boxer it’s annoying you need like 2 sec of interval time for them to readjust their head normal
26:59 My counter argument to this is deadshot. Deadshot is a perk that when aiming down sights it automatically targets the head. Maybe a better balance would be fewer armored zombies. I honestly don’t know. However I personally enjoy shooting the helmet off of a zombies head.
I just feel like there should be a pack level 4 that cost 100k essence and a red ultra rarity for 10k scrap. Can even make the zombies health step up until round 60 or so. The mangler spawns don't bother me, especially needing 30 for diamond camos, I did 3 smgs diamond in 1 45 round game. The abominations at the higher rounds have way to much health, they arnt hard or even annoying, just bullet sponges.
@zacbarrett8875 100k is insane when the 3rd pack only cost 30k if there was a 4th pack lvl it should be only 50k thats more than enough and the ultra rare should be 7500 scrap since the legendary is 5000 youre going way over board when it already take mad long just to get scrap n points especially with 4 people
as someone who returned after not playing since the real mw2 , i think you are the first youtuber that didnt just spew crap about fake metas and strats for views. thank you. have a sub. also very interesting topic well done with the spreadsheets.
Whilst I'm not a fan of Double Tap 2.0 returning due to breaking early game balance, I wouldn't mind Double Tap 1.0 returning however. It could even have a major augment like "Every bullet has a chance to split into two, dealing double damage", because then it could help fully auto weapons whilst leaving other augments available to make Double Tap helpful for other kinds of weapons.
@@Paralyzed-rm6vcI'd disagree personally. Even removing it breaking early round balancing I still don't wanna see Double Tap 2.0 return in this game because... we don't need it. We got the current PAP system and weapon rarity system for a reason, it's the better solution to double tap's weapon effectiveness (and is far better than BO4 making you pack every gun 5 times)
@@TopSuperKickerBO4's PaP is almost as bad as Advanced Warfare's system PaP'ing 5 times is a horrible system. The 3 tier PaP we have now is a little better, but it's not great. However, if you Double Tap 2.0 game breaking for the early game why do we have Pack-a-Punch, Perks or Wonder Weapons? You're argument is "early game balance," but if you're skilled you get Tier 3 PaP before Perks or Armor, which practically does the same thing.
I want to say thank you for this video and more importantly your approach to this video. I love how you rather than being cynical or negative you took the time and analyzed the problem that you saw and then you looked at it from multiple angles and compared it to other experiences. I think too often now days people in this community see something like the unbalanced high rounds and simply say this sucks BO6 is trash which isn't true. I also really love how you took into account the developers perspective on how they created the game and as a game developer myself I really appreciate this because there isn't enough credit being given to them for what they have tried to do. They really have worked hard to give us a more engaging and fun zombies experience and as you mentioned there definitely are some problems with it currently but I don't think that those problem should completely discredit the good that they have done. I honestly believe that if they can get the balance issue to a better place BO6 overall could stand on a pedestal close to BO3 (because let's face it BO3 die hards will never accept anything is better then BO3) . So Thank you for taking the massive amount of time to truly diagnose the problem and make this video. I hope that the devs see it and take what you are saying into account.
13:54 Doughnuts, I love your positivity, but a bullet sponge that fires homing explosive missiles on a game where enemies were not meant to shoot back to the player is not 'beautifully designed'.
I feel like the struggle begins early on. Salvage doesn't seem to drop enough to be able to get your guns to decent rarity even with a silencer... (Assuming you want to get more than your starter past grey tier.) Then you run that very fine line of "Do I wanna get perks and stay weak or do I wanna upgrade and have no perks?" I swear I don't recall it being such a struggle to get somewhat stable...
Just stopping in to say i love the camo tracker you posted. Its been 100x easier to track what else i need to complete. Got a new sub out of me, thank you!
I can't believe I'm saying this... but you're ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! This might be the greatest take I've ever heard! You not only back it up with research, evidence, facts, and logic, but you show passion and care about the game. I truly do believe the Mangler is an amazing enemy, and it's only getting hate for the late round spam. While I will say it can be lazy to reuse the same enemy over and over, it's different when said enemy is well crafted and iconic. We also can't forget that this isn't the only series to reuse the same mid boss/boss enemy. I really think that, like you said, the armored zombies need to have no helmets, and manglers need to have a spawn cap. I'd be OK with having more than 3 TOTAL manglers in one round, but never seeing more than 2 or 3 at a time. They keep things interesting. I also have found a bit of a love-hate relationship with Abominations. I really like how you can feed them frags, thermals, and semtexs to blow off their heads, and even kill them out right by doing this on their last head.
Every time you post a video, I’m always so curious to see what you’re talking about because you put out so much good information. It helped me a lot in my zombie life. You’re probably one of my favorite zombie creators out there.
I remember by the end of cold wars life cycle they made a good change to high rounds, they made the zombie and mini boss levels cap off around 50 so they didn’t get insanely hard to kill. And Cold War to me is still one of my favorite modern zombies experience, maybe eventually they will implement a similar change in the Future and cap the health for this games zombies around 30 instead of 50
We keep talking about it, but I honestly just believe Treyarch doesn’t want high round plays. They want you to complete the EE before round 30 and stop playing, and most casual players won’t be surviving beyond that anyways (don’t believe me? join a public match and see) so they peak the fun and then slowly let you down to gently say “Stop playing”
I have a few different points I'd like to make as a data scientist. First of all, thank you for putting together a visualization for difficulty as the rounds progress. I think a visual is really useful in conveying the idea of difficulty in an easy to understand way that isn't strictly qualitative. I personally don't think dps or kills per second are the best way to measure this though. What stuck out the most to me was that in rounds 10-20 you calculated that there would be 15-25 kills per second. Although this is what the dps value would reflect, does it really make sense? For the saug, the faster firing of the two weapons, the default fire rate is 15.15 rounds per second. DPS assumes all damage is being dealt to a zombie but this does not account for overflow. In other words, if a headshot is a one-shot it doesn't matter what the dps is and guns dealing infinite damage will feel the same as a gun dealing the exact damage of the zombies health. This discrepancy could cause the visual to be skewed in certain places by inflating any range where you are dealing more than the maximum health per shot. I think a better value to use here would be bullets per kill (zombie health / damage per bullet rounded up) which could also be divided by the fire rate (in terms of rounds per second) to find a more accurate time to kill. This would still lead us to the same conclusion but the difference between round 15 to round 30+ would likely seem smaller. Now what do I think could be done to improve the high round gameplay? First of all, I don't think Treyarch balances the game with high rounding as a top priority. The core gameplay loop of zombies is surviving the apocalypose for a period of time and eventually dying once you are overrun. My games usually last somewhere between an 1 and 2 hours which in my opinion is a relatively good balance for the length of a game. Making each game last longer than this fundamentally changes the game. Without playing in an intentionally unfun way (any meta strategy that is fundamentally different from how your average player would play) I think it should be impossible to progress past a certain point. I don't know how controversial that opinion is but I personally think that a 2 hour limit is about what you should be aiming for. I don't think the game should be balanced past a certain point to reinforce this as this is how zombies has always been. With that said, I think there are definitely improvements that can be made to make the transition to those impossible rounds a little more gradual. I think the most obvious problem is the number of manglers. The gameplay fundamentally changes when you have to dodge multiple ranged attacks at the same time which most players find unfun. The two ways I see to address this would be to either reduce their fire rate in some way or to reduce the number of manglers that are on the map at any given time. This would target the issue of dodging multiple ranged attacks at once, but comes with the consequence of making the game easier which, as stated in the previous paragraph, shouldn't be the goal. As a result, the game would have to be made more difficult in some other way such as increasing mangler health (I think this isn't the best approach since manglers being bullet sponges is already a major complaint), increasing the damage dealt, or in the case of reducing the number of manglers on the map the fire rate could be increased. No matter which route is taken, I think purely nerfing manglers and not making some other aspect of the game harder would be an unfun change that would make the game easier when it does not need to be. I'd love to hear any other perspectives on the points that I've made this far. I just think that there is a difference between something being unfun and something being difficult which can be easily conflated. The goal should be to die eventually while making it feel like there was something you could have done in that situation to prevent it even if that thing was really hard. I think introducing the health cap was a net negative since it prevents the rounds from getting harder after a certain point and turns the game into "if I can survive round 100 I will do the same thing until round 999 and make it after 200 hours or whatever" which isn't fun for the majority of the playerbase who haven't even spent that much time with the game open.
I think the problem with lowing the health cap is the fact that rounds are capped at 250 zombies per round. Lowering the health cap would also drastically change the pace of rounds. As you increase in rounds the idea of them getting longer and longer meant that instead of your focus being on the zombies health increasing it would be on the length of the round(with infinite damage weapons and strats of course). I find my issue right now being that outside of killstreaks there is no infinite damage source, like deadwire or some older wonderweapons. 250 zombies per round and 50ish zombies spawned at once made it that they had to focus on making that short 250 zombies feel challenging instead of spreading it out over sometimes thousands of kills. I can't fully pinpoint why I don't like the idea of always being able to kill with weapons. It might be because then what is the point of wonderweapons, traps, and ammo mods if you can just shoot. I am definitely biased in that I think for high high rounds you should be restricted to those three things. However killstreaks completely ruin that idea. Im yappin at this point but have never put my two cents into a conversation like this. Overall Im enjoying this years zombies much more than I dislike it. just did a round 100 run on terminus and did ee at the end. my only complaint is that I cant train without almost assuredly dying. Both maps high round strats being restrained to camping in a corner so you don't get jumped from behind or using killstreaks kinda sucks. Those are fine for being strats, but I would also like to add training with the wonderweapons, traps without the zombies despawing, and ammo mods being able to actually kill zombies would be good for me. Just a couple more options would be all I want. Also please don't put manglers in any other maps anymore. They have been in like 8 maps now or something crazy like that. Something new. Well done if youput up with reading all that. Happy zombie killing!
I agree with the kill streak strategy as the only “solution” once you get so overwhelmed that you have 3-5 manglers, 2 amalgams, a dozen bugs, and dozens of zombies you can’t do anything but run. You can’t focus the manglers cause the zombies are in the way, you can’t slow down cause the amalgams, you can’t loop cause if your armor breaks then the amalgams insta down you. There just no fun way to actually dance and fight. The best strat I found is just run, focus on the few zombies infront widdiling away the horde until it’s mostly just manglers and amalgams then finally focus the amalgams so they don’t heal. Kill streaks are the only way I find to easily widdle down the horde when it gets tight.
Absolutely spot on summary at the end. I’m a very average ability player (and an older player) an quite frankly it’s just very tedious and not much fun when you hit a certain point (for me that’s by about round 30 if not before). I don’t see the point in continuing beyond. It just feels like a lot of very hard work for no reward. Mind you, I much preferred the open world of Modern Warfare Zombies! I would love to see that come back, maybe with much longer games of potentially 2-3 hours instead of the 45 mins, and with deeper more complex content.
Your effort in reverse engineering the details of what makes this game tick is immensely impressive. Thank you for being the community zombies mythbuster!
I’ve learned when training to just ignore the manglers until the end of the round so they are the only thing left. It makes the rounds so much smoother
(Full discretion I mostly enjoy easter eggs and not super high round gameplay due to physical limitations) I feel like I might be the odd one out saying this but I enjoy the difficulty spike in BO6. The last COD I played was CW because of the zombies refresh and that was super accessible for newcomers, being a fair bit easier than previous titles. I rlly like this year's change to zombies spawns, dmg, and training potential, it just keeps me on my toes when just running backwards. That said, I'm not at all opposed to tuning changes in BO6. I could absolutely use some more ammo during later rounds lol 😅
Zombies players love a long experience, it makes you feel like you set up correctly for the game mode. The devs are too focused on creating a 30-45 min experience. They say it’s for the “casual crowd” but I think it’s simply for server usage. We don’t want to set up from zero every 30 min so we just log off for the day and that makes their online servers receive less elongated traffic.
There's a few ways I'd change manglers. Either doing variants, basic ones that don't have the armor on the head and maybe weaker armor on the chest so you get rewarded for getting critical shots on them still, then having the fully armored one we have right now showing up less often, but still here and there. Or when you shoot the charging cannon it would do a little AoE blast around the mangler that stunned other elites nearby with a decently generous radius, giving you the chance to maneuver or chain some cannon destructions and instantly killing zombies in a smaller radius around the mangler. Changes like the latter in particular could keep a similar difficulty ceiling, but give you skillful options to tackle it with.
2 things that may be interesting to add to the conversation: -Mangler spam would be less agravating if the projectiles weren't homing. -When things like Mimics/Disciples/hell, why not Gladiators get eventually added we may realise that "Mangler spam" is actually "Specials spam"... It's just that there is currently only one special zombie in the game.
For my solution I was gonna suggest adding double tap 1.0 perk and having a doubletap 2.0 major augment that doubles damage on armored zombies only. That way the weapon balance isn’t destroyed at lower rounds and at higher rounds the perk helps deal with the annoying armor. But I actually like your solution much better. Making it so that armored zombies aren’t armored at the head seems like a much better solution.
I hope they see this video because I couldn’t agree more. As someone who enjoyed high round grinds in the BO trilogy that started it all, the methods they’ve used recently to make the game more difficult in high rounds make the game way more annoying than fun. Even in a Dark Souls, as difficult as it is in theory, if you’re highly precise the difficulty never feels unfair or unreasonable like BO6 does currently.
The most common complaints from my friends are not doing enough to armor specifically, manglers having homing shots, and just having too many special enemies in the first place
The bo6 gameplay and design philosophy is way better than the infinite scaling bs. Just needs some tweaking. Personally I enjoy having 2-4 elites per round
Thank you donut! I've been waiting for someone to tell them thay went to far. I'm a OG zombies player from ww2 from the beginning and thay have gone into left field with this mangler thing. Thanks again!
I haven't played a cod since infinite warfare, bought this game the other day and I've been playing a ton of zombies, I'm halfway through my opals and I bought the game 6 days ago. The main thing that struck out to me immediately when I played my first couple of games was how many things you have in the game just to keep you alive... In bo2 for instance you had jug, monkeys and quick revive (which could only be used 3 or so times on solo), in this game you've got jug, armour, decoy grenades (which can be equipped in your loadout), monkeys, all the scorestreaks make you invulnerable with the exception of the mangler cannon, self revive which can be recrafted over and over again (I believe), aether shroud/ frenzied guard... and tbh all of the field upgrades can get you out of a pinch and then also you have other things that will make you invulnerable which are map dependant, such as the code on nathan in terminus. There is just so much to keep you alive in spots where you make a mistake and get cornered, it feels like it's impossible to die sometimes, you can practically cycle your way through all of these different methods to get zombies off of you and so the only way the game can make itself difficult is with mangler spam. I feel like they need to work on that, if you make a mistake and get cornered, you should probably die.
beautiful presentation, calm and collected, beautiful. love the positivity I like the professional approach I think if they want to keep people attracted to zombies, I hope someone important see this and maybe we enjoy high rounds this year!
Never seen your content before. Excellent video and analysis (just subscribed). I think another issue that contributes to the balance conversation is the points system. 1 kill per second (ignoring non-regular zombies) means you’re burning through ammo, but you only get points per kill rather than per hit like before. I was super disappointed to realize on my second game that I didn’t have enough points for ammo, but then I remembered wall guns and got excited again. Then I realized it took 2-3 full magazines to kill one armored zombie even with headshots and just quit the game
Off the top of my head double tap being brought back but something more like the below would be great to me. Double tap: Base ability - 25% increase to fire rate & bullet penetration. Major 1 - 25% Increase armor penetration damage. Major 2 - pack a punch tiers cost 25% less Major 3 - double weapon damage for 20 seconds when field upgrade is activated. Minor 1 - weapons obtained from the wall or mystery box earn 10% more essence (icon will glow when holding eligible gun) Minor 2 - 15% further increase to fire rate Minor 3 - 20% increase in reserve ammo I feel like this is way more balanced than just doing 2.0. First minor is me having abit of fun with the idea of a perk enhancing the use of classic systems
1.) Bring back the OG point system. 2.) Bring back BO3 ammo mods. 3.) Reduce mangler spawn rate/add a cap. 4.) Add Double Tap. 5.) Add basic gobblegums. 6.) Reduce wonder weapon rarity and expand their usage somehow.
They should decrease the zombie health cap, decrease the mangler spawn rate, but INCREASE the mangler health/ damage mitigation. This makes it so camping is advantageous for quickly going through rounds with the downside of manglers getting funneled toward you making it more dangerous, or you can horde zombies which makes all enemy management easier with the trade off of being significantly slower. Then you have your elite rounds which gives you a reason to use your WW a bit more.
I think the solution is very simple. We need more things to upgrade ourselves into the later rounds... By round 30 we are fully geared. Pack level 3, all perks, max armor. We need something to keep grinding towards and keep upgrading so we can continue scaling with the zombies. I'm not sure if that means more packapunch levels or maybe more weapon rarities, idk. But there definitely should be something
@ Doughnuts no other streamer is talking about these graphs and numbers. You are digging into the components/programming of the game. This is Treyarch developer talk; and congrats on the 99K subscribers.😄
Okay so: *Reduce the insane zombies health increase /heathcap on high rounds to where it is between 7-4 (probably 6 or 5) kills per second. *Max mangler spawns at a time = 2 *A bit less armoured zombies / armour has less damage mitigation That should fix a lot of things right?
So, I remember during the Terminus early gameplay, we were told that Treyarch said they are planning to make the game more difficult still, but they just don't know how. It feels like they just said, "manglers are hard, just make more of them show up." And we are just going from there. I don't doubt that behind the scenes they are working trying to figure out the "perfect" balance. Honestly, I get it, its a really hard balance to make. In my opinion, one of the best ways to do this would be 1. Cap the amount of manglers/elites on the map at any given moment 2. just remove armored zombies 3. Some sort of health adjustment Capping the manglers out at 2 or 3 just creates more consistent gameplay that doesn't become a bullet hell with 8+ manglers all at once on top of a horde of super sprinters. The armored zombies, in their current state at least, is the definition of "artificial difficulty" imo. All it does is reduce the ttk without providing anything else, and with the health cap the way it is we are better off without them. However, I do think your suggestion of just removing the helmet to reward players for being accurate is fine too. I really don't know the best way to "fix" the health, it could be lowering it, or it could be something like another PaP tier to further increase damage. As a avid high round enjoyer since bo1, it feels like Treyarch has been trying to find the perfect balance since then and just haven't quite been able to hit what they are looking for. I think having a "beta" and just changing things to test them and listen to player feedback would have been best, which they technically still can do, and maybe should?
This meta may be a placeholder until we get many more variety of enemy types, it's still a developing game as we speak. I Enjoyed this video, well done!
11:50 thats one of my sour points, that it takes so long to kill zombies in the horde that they spawn new ones behind you and you can get trapped if you aren't careful. 21:40 "Base Jugg" I always forget about augments
One thing that I really hate about trying to train in BO6 Zombies is how the Zombies spawn. If you go just a little bit away from the horde, they will always despawn and spawn in front of you, including the boss Zombies, causing you to always be on the run, because you don't have any time to breathe due to how many are spawning directly in front of you.
Also, using the traps suffer from the same issue. Only a few Zombies will end up going through the trap, the rest will despawn and spawn behind you as you watch the trap.
@@Vintagesonic1 which traps tho? dafgs dont have this issue cus they cover massive areas, and the tentacle traps dont really have this either cus theyre in decent training areas, so you can just slide under them to have them kill zombies
If im playing with a squad, and i leave liberty lanes to go up the phd steps, the zombies always despawn for some reason
Yeah, I remember BO4 being heavily criticized for this, but BO6 is a comical escalation of this problem. It is a very cheap way of making the gameplay more frantic at the cost of actual depth. You should be able to navigate the maps outside of the most open spaces without the entire horde instantly respawning in front of you. You barely have to move before they start pouring out of the spawns on the other side of the room.
Yeah I totally get it but you have to remember that the speeds at which we move around now are far faster and more refined than the earlier zombies and, the fact that there's 50zds on map at a time if you killed one another would spawn somewhere near you factors in also. I do prefer the old ways of having a whole horde follow you around the map if needed but cod just wants you to be engaged all of the time.
@ There’s got to be a more refined solution. It is, at the very least, over-tuned. Maybe if there was a cap where only 25 of the 50 zombies are free to respawn very aggressively, they could maintain some of the strategic control of the old games without being too easy.
I still think manglers should have a spawn cap of two, but can still have 8 in a wave, they just can’t all be out all at once.
100000% this please
@@Doughnuts it’s an opinion I’ve had for ages, cause it allows people to still easily grind opal while keeping their spawns in check.
But people want the total manglers gutted when this is a simpler solution that doesn’t make those grinding for camo’s groan in annoyance and head to directed as a result 🤣
I like this idea. Special and elite enemies are cool. It's not necessarily annoying to have a lot in general, what's annoying is how many you can see at once. I like having them mixed in, but it is a bit much when you are actively dealing with a bunch of them at once alongside the usual horde.
Agreed
Or maybe let us shoot their projectile to disable its tracking?
Buffing the ammo mods so they’re actually capable of killing hoards and reducing their cooldowns would go along way imo
I disagree, weapon damage should be buffed, Because I actually tend to not apply Ammo mods on my weapons because Ammo Mod Kills cancel out Heashot Kills, I just wish weapons did more damage in those later rounds!
@@Super_AC1 Augments do exactly that lol.
@@Average_Internet_User101I Think adding higher tiers of PaP can help with that. Instead of 3 tiers I think there should be 5.
@@kingquan3826 Fine by me, just remember people already complain about the point system, so don't give them any more validity!
The launchers especially can’t make enough essence to buy ammo that it takes to kill zombies
i think another thing that aids in it being brutal is how points are gained now
back in a bo2 or some such youd see your points skyrocket for firing into a horde, and that felt GOOD
now, on a high round, you dont get that anymore, so you dont get the gratification, it just feels like trying to break down a brick wall with your fist
god forbid you go down and have to buy back perks or you bleedout. I played until round 50 and with 25k points, you cant pack a punch to do enough dmg to buy perks, and you cant survive with perks long enough to pack a punch tier 3. If there was a point gun, you could train with an smg, spray, and buy back your stuff. Highrounds is either you survive and never go down, or youre fucked.
Nah points have never been a problem
@@youtubehandle-u2l yeah that’s why I only ever run 4 or so perks, quick revive, jug, speed cola, and stamina up. Otherwise it’s a massive reinvestment
@@youtubehandle-u2lRound 50 with 25k? Skill issue
@@the-real-et I understand what your saying I actually get that gratification in bo6 when I kill zombies with killing a horde with double points and get only headshots it feels great and a few thousand points
Personally, the biggest problem I have when playing around Round 40ish, it's the new ponts system.
Not gaining points per shot makes impossible buying ammo or even perks if you go down and have a crappy gun
I love this point system tbh I was always lazy as a kid and having to point my gun at a knee was dreadful😂💨
I also miss the old ammo system. Honestly imo it was better but this new system allows players who want to use one shot kill guns just as viable. Because every gun gains the same amount of points per kill.
I agree that there's an issue when it comes to getting ammo, but the change is good overall. You should be incentivized to get kills, not prolong rounds and waste ammo.
@@swish8823 You never had to do that, only if you felt like minmaxing the first few rounds. Not doing it isn't gonna be an issue since you have a good while before zombies become an issue
Remember that Double Tap increases the fire rate of the weapons by 30%. That’s also very important for Ray Gun or Sallies
Maybe make double tap cost 2 bullets therefore increasing damage at the cost of ammo depleting faster. Cause just giving free double damage isn’t reasonable.
@@bigjones7357you'd still be dealing x2 damage in early rounds making it basically an instant kill. And it wouldn't change late game
33%* but yea
Always double tap.
Remember, Shooting faster also means running out of ammo faster!
I’d be fine with the manglers if I didn’t feel like my gun just stopped working… when the ray gun on pack 3 needs 5 shots to kill 1 zombie, that becomes a problem. A “wonder weapon” isn’t so wonderful anymore.
god man this is honestly my dream video on zombies
I've always wanted someone to make it or do it myself but you nailed absolutely every point with facts, precison, lack of bias or acknowledging when you have bias
stellar work man, praying kevin drew sees it
Chart only shows damage per Zombie, not a horde of 50 zombies. So ammo per kill should be a nice chart to see at levels 0 to 50. don't think it will be possible! but thanks for the hard work!
@@DEJAFOOL010 this.
Hordes are 40 Zombies in BO6
Terminus:
Kills Zombie > Spider pops out of head
Kills Spider > Morphs into mosquito
Finally kills Mosquito!
@@Average_Internet_User101 I ran into this a handfull of time on liberty too
Rare but possible, I don’t know how 😅
I dont mind super sprinters and more zombies but i feel like they need to reduce the durability of zombie armor and reduce mangler spawns OR reduce how often they blast OR the distance they can blast
Edit: Thank you very much for the hard work and spreadsheets. Great video as always! 🍩
Edit #2: I got to the part where you mentioned removing armored zombie's helmets. I like that idea. Treyarch! I hope you're listening!
I feel like just adding a hard cap on how many bullets are needed to break armor is a better balance than just removing the helmet.
But I'm all for any solution. Honestly the low damage at high rounds doesn't bother me much, as annoying as it feels, it's really always been like this, since WaW.
@@kxjabremoving the helmets only changes the game for noobs. All other zombies players were already going for the crit
@@notatypobrutha I feel like most people who even play CoD understand that aiming for the head is how you do the most damage, not even just CoD but Zombies in general.
Honestly I don't think armored zombies are even necessary, but it is what it is.
@@seang1032 stop wranglers from tracking with their shots and that will stop half the problems
@seang1032 i don't mind the helmets, I wish they constantly needed the same number of bullets to break each time. 2 on the heavy, 4 on the armored/military. When it takes 20 bullets to break one helmet, and then one shot to kill that's insane. My highest is 46, I don't like using wonder weapons. But box/wall/initial weapons just don't work past 30.
I think the solution might be a perk that increases bullet penetration, so that it might take longer per zombie, but you're hitting more than one. That or another PaP level
Death perception 🤔
2 more pap levels.
I can see them doing this with a new version of double tap.. increased fire rate and bullet penetration.
Bro there’s attachments that do that.
@ you could say the exact same thing for speed cola mate, the point is stacking the buff
I feel like the range of the mangler cannon also increases by round, one round ill be at a safe distance and the next round ill be further away but still get hit by it, and it seems like when there is 4-5 shooting at once they just go through all objects including busses
Splash damage seems to increase. I agree
@@rockstarrecovery1694 either that or straight up range, like i said they will spawn outta the window outside of bank training spot inbetween bowling alley and bank, and ill be safe all the way to gobblegum machine until like round 30-32ish then it seems like all their blast reach all the way to the drop off back into spawn and im just like bruh i was safe from this shit last round what happend
They do 100% this game is starting to become more trouble than it's worth for high rounds i go to 25 to 30
@@rockstarrecovery1694 the damage 100% goes up, same with zombies normal swipes
I've been hit essentially across the map on liberty falls, the mangler was at the stairs spawning in and I was at the burning car pile and he hit me from the middle of the stairs when he fired
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way about manglers. I miss having consistent circle trains and some friends after round 40 don't want to play zombies anymore because manglers are so unmanageable. 2 at a time would be doable but it's turning people away
I just wanna say that I'm impressed with the amount of work and effort you put into this.
This is literally one of the most impressive and passionate videos I’ve seen from someone
The only thing worse than missing an exfil round 31 is missing it round 36.
I'll do the Easter egg or die trying before I slog it out to 41 again.
Fax!💀☠️⚰️
My highest round is 41. Consistently exfil at 31
@@mr.neqtan try this, you can go for 36 or even 41, just pickup and/or keep 1 or 2 choppergunners for the Double Amalgamation/abomination rounds!👍
@@Average_Internet_User101 that's basically what a player needs to do to push for 50. Watching Insomnia Virus get to 999 is how someone needs to play from 50 on
Just use an exit strategy gobblegum
Easy solution. Double tap only spawns on the map after round 35. It also has enhanced armor penetration.
Just put it with wonderfizz machine
Remember that in old zombies standard weapons were NOT useful in high rounds at all except for point hoarding. Even BO3 relied on AATs to keep regular guns "relevant".
I think that what they're trying to do this time around is to make standard weapons USABLE at high rounds, while keeping them weak enough to hit that old school feel, so that you gravitate towards WW, traps, etc. Mutant injections aren't any more of a crutch compared to AATs if you ask me, so it's more a matter of preference.
Now, I do think a zombie health nerf would be healthy for the game, cause currently they're not hitting that sweet spot I'm talking about, it more so feels like they're fooling you into thinking your gun is going to be somewhat useful, only to be a complete waste of resources and time.
i think its more the armor than their hp... the damage mitigation is brutal...
@@ElCocoLocoBarrocoComeMocos Exactly youre right but the Ray Gun is not strong enough ingame tbh on high rounds.
As a French player, What is AAT ? 😅😂
@@raven_CwCFR alternate ammo types. Bo3 had thunder wall, blast furnace, turned, fireworks, and dead wire. All of these triggered an aoe effect that did infinite damage.
@@brayachdragonbane7529 yeah exactly, the armor is the main culprit, if you do on average 51k dps and zombies cap out at 50k that is good 1 kill per second which doesn't feel terrible for rounds 50 or 999. The problem is the armor taking that number, smearing shit all over it and making it 5.6k dps.
This guy has some great content, it would be hilarious if he was at the office and his boss was like “hey Chris, do you think you can get these docs done?”
Comes in his office just to see him working on this thinking “wow this guy is always working”
I think if they flipped the mangler arm asset and had some melee only manglers it would completely solve the problem. Let’s say even at the highest rounds the game only allows three ranged manglers MAX but can spawn a bunch of melee onlys, you can still train, you somewhat have to deal with horde disruption, health pools stay, etc. maybe as a compromise they also have an hvt boss round every 15 or so with a bonus reward to give it that MOTD & ORIGINS feel
I know that a lot of people have a problem with the manglers (me included) but i feel like another big issue, specifically with liberty falls, is that the abomination is such an annoying elite enemy to kill and takes so so so much ammo to do so while giving you so little in return, that paired with the large hordes of zombies with high hp and insane mangler spawns in the higher rounds its just so insufferable to deal with, not to mentioned as you go higher in the rounds even more can spawn. I don't really think there is a way to fix this because at its core the abomination is just a really poorly designed enemy, it takes the influence of a margwa where it has 3 heads that open periodically and whatnot you can destroy for big damage, but the abomination is CONSTANTLY charging at you with its mouths closed, it can turn and charge on a dime, and with higher rounds the ability to reliably hit it in its critical head points becomes so difficult because of the large hp hoard which it hides behind that paired with mangler spam makes it just this looming threat you have to dump everything into or suffer the consequences. The high rounds is just not fun because where in older games you have to actually play against the zombies, in this game its just playing against manglers and abominations every round and seeing how often you can open the crafting table for a killstreak before your game crashes or you die.
This is also just a bit of a personal annoyance, but i think vermins/parasites do a very unneeded amount of plate damage while also being very fast. Having to deal with the horde, mangler spam, and abomination/amalgam every few rounds should be a fine amount of stress on staying alive with out the need to worry that a vermin will jump attack you, attack instantly again, and then youre already almost half health with a basically broken plate.
Especially when there's like 3 or 4 abominations in 1 round all at once lol
Fucking preach. The video is well put edited and written while also being nerdy with all the data necessary for your well argued points. Keep it up. I LOVE IT!
I genuinely love your idea for armoured zombies without helmets. Super sprinters, with a cap of 2 manglers at a time and no armoured helmets would feel perfect for high rounds
Those vermin cap out doing 160 damage!!! They two tap you without armor! Why do they do more damage than normal zombies?! What the hell?!
And why is there so many! At round 132 I started counting them and got like 184 of them in a single round it lasted 5-6 minutes while a normal round last like 2 at most
Thats the point, they are weaker but do more damage
They are weaker and do more damage, they also don't attack your armor. You can have 3 plates and they'll still only hit you for your HP, but their attacks are super easy to avoid. In zombies they did a good job in terms of "monster" creation.
@@FrankyWillz yeah then they buffed its attack range making them annoying as hell in small areas, go and try to melee a few, and they never stop scaling for some reason. They are easy but super unfun, just sit in the jet gun room for 5mins shooting them at the door, they need to cap the rounds and make them shorter its just a boring time sink.
i swear i’ve seen a Vermin dash tap me for 200 damage on 31-54, but i might be bias
I think a way they could fix Mangler spam is if they can find a way to make it so that if there are more than 4 manglers on the map at a time they can't shoot their canon. If they basically got relegated to extra heavy armored zombies with faster running and harder hitting that would bw okay the constant projectile spam is what really annoys me. Or make it so up to 4 manglers can shoot that would be better. Personally i just don't like ranged attacks in zombies
Or go back to where the Mangler cannon shots weren't homing missiles that follow you
@@AstriaTVTruthExposed exactly this. all they need to do is make the mangler blasts not track and actually stop when they hit walls or cars
This could work, tweak the cannon so it only stuns, and have a max of 2-3 on the map but have the rest in reserve for when you do get them. Like take one down another takes it's place kind of deal
So real. The presence of super-sprinters, armored zombies, manglers, elites, and aggressive spawns make high rounds horrible. High rounds are awesome, but the routine is what makes such long-form gameplay fun. BO6 is a constant ADHD trip (I would know), and it's insanely tiring to do that for longer time periods.
People have two opinions on the point system, and it can be easily broken down into two groups with different scenarios.
Group 1 that exfils below round 30 and group 2 for 30+. Group 1 says point system is balanced.
1. The argument goes, “its perfectly normal because it gives the stronger weapons the same point earning ability as weaker ones. “ Back then, someone might skip over using a shotgun/sniper early on in favor of using a weaker weapon, like an smg to earn points. However, with 2/3 weapon slots, it’s perfectly reasonable to save the shotgun/sniper/wonderweappn for later rounds in order to maximize points. I see people saying “the new point system is fine” but a real issue is when someone bleeds out or loses all their perks on round 30+. Now that SMG that was useful on early rounds is becoming less effective, and you run out of points quickly buying back perks or pack a punching.
Group 1 may not have an issue with the point system, since zombie health is lower, its easier to recover from a bleedout. Group 2 is absolutely positively FUCKED. Group 2 loses perks, now blows 15k buying back perks, and their weapons dont do anything, thats where a point gun would come in super handy. For example, I was playing w randoms to round 55, and one of them had the misfortune of bleeding out on round 40. I ended up bleeding out too. Wed respawn and have 20-25k points to buy back our stuff and get back, but we quickly realized the points given wasnt nearly enough to help out. By respawning with only legendary weapons, It was either a toss up between “Buy PAP2 and pray it does enough dmg to buy back perks” or “Buy perks and use PHD/traps to slowly earn enough points to pack a punch “ Well, 3 of us ending up testing out everything before realizing we were fucked. Not enough dmg to earn points, not enough survivability with perks to make enough to pap. The game ended with one guy training and reviving us with the jetgun/raygun, while 3 of us died repeatedly trying to figure out how to recover from bleeding out.
Straight up, I played bo1-bo2 bo3 and skipped every cod til now. Ive only ever played zombies. Now im seeing comments saying “old point system sucked, you couldnt use strong weapons because you didnt earn any points with them.” but they always forget that you didnt HAVE TO use those 1-shot kill weapons if you had mule kick, or a second weapon slot. This current point system is useful early on, sure. Yea, maybe you can use weaker weapons and not be at a point disadvantage, sure. But those high rounds with randoms/friends becomes FUCKED, its a complete point drought, theres no way to do enough dmg to kill a zombie, earn points, and buy back stuff IF you go down/bleedout. i spent half an hour trying to use PHD flopper to try to earn points to pap, then id bleedout, respawn with 25k and try to pack a punch. Difference was, pack a punching was useful but not if you can outrun super sprinters. I got so annoyed playing, i realized theres no point to going to highrounds because randoms will disconnect once they realize they cant recover, and friends get tired of going down and not being able to do anything. Bring back the old system, bring mule kick
Straight up, I played bo1-bo2 bo3 and skipped every cod til now. Ive only ever played zombies. Now im seeing comments saying “old point system sucked, you couldnt use strong weapons because you didnt earn any points with them.” but they always forget that you didnt HAVE TO use those 1-shot kill weapons if you had mule kick, or a second weapon slot. This current point system is useful early on, sure. Yea, maybe you can use weaker weapons and not be at a point disadvantage, sure. But those high rounds with randoms/friends becomes FUCKED, its a complete point drought, theres no way to do enough dmg to kill a zombie, earn points, and buy back stuff IF you go down/bleedout. i spent half an hour trying to use PHD flopper to try to earn points to pap, then id bleedout, respawn with 25k and try to pack a punch tier 2 and survive with no perks. Its a shitshow at high rounds, I got so annoyed playing, i realized theres no point to going to highrounds because randoms will disconnect once they realize they cant recover, and friends get tired of going down and not being able to do anything. Bring back the old system, bring mule kick
You're delusional, I regularly go over 75+ and the points are fine. The people who go down a lot are the ones who complain because they burn through their points
Dude, spot on. Playing solo on Liberty Falls and Terminus, it takes a little bit of getting accustomed to the areas, for me at least, after that, somebody better help these zombies, LoL. Knowing about all you have at your disposal and knowing the zombies patterns, is why I don't complain about Manglers Abominations, or Nathan. I wholeheartedly agree about essence gains but the absurdity of a 500 essence increase price of subsequent perk purchases is overboard, unless in the future Reloaded Season updates we get augments or an attachment to increase essence gains.
@@huntermccarthy3995
Exactly. There are actually too many points if you ask me. The essence isn't even an issue once you get to certain rounds. The currency for high rounds is salvage. These kids are really bad at the game if they think this zombies is too hard 😂
honestly i’m just so happy that zombies fans and creators have stuff to discuss about again.
make the double tap only spawn in wonderfizz is kinda solves the issue its being OP in early rnd's
We only need it for 30+ anyways
That’s what I was thinking just keep it 25+ only
well thats exactly how it would be for terminus and liberty falls since thats how dlc perks get implemented, problem is they would make a machine for it in future maps, it would feel weird if they didn't and people would be unhappy to not have a machine even tho it would destroy early-midgame balance. They could make it like old double tap and have it increase only fire rate and maybe have its augments give a major damage boost to armor and special/elites.. idk.
Nah can't have crutch perks even though there is no perk limit anymore.
Kid named free perk power up:
Another thing I find tedious is how narrow walkways get with so many zombies compared to the hit radius to the mangler cannon blast. I love getting away from a horde of zombies just to get megaclapped by four mangers all shooting at once. And you either have to take the cannon or get eaten by the zombies. Also it feels like the hit radius of zombies gets higher too.
THANK YOU for this video. This is what happens when you listen to feedback of people who havent played the game.
I think the best "fix" or possible solution would be to add Double Tap but only have it accessible through the wunderfizz on every current map and maps afterwards. This would mean that at round 25 (when the Wunderfizz spawns) if you need that extra damage you can purchase Double Tap. Alternatively even make the Wunderfizz appear even later at round 30 since round 1-30 is already extremely easy and damage only starts to fall off past 30. I'm not saying this would fix high rounds, but Treyarch could do their own testing to see how this works in practice. (even though Treyarch doesn't playtest BO6, evident by the numerous bugs)
I’ve attempted round 51 terminal dark ops three times now. And all three times I’ve either encountered a huge crafting and utility glitch where I can’t use scorestreaks, gums, and I don’t get any armor animations and sometimes even can’t use lethal and tactical, also not being able to craft at the table, or I get phases into a piece of debree or a wall. Not to mention the xp I get a pitiful amount of xp for exfilling at those rounds. Only 4-5 battle pass tokens and around 3-6 ish levels. It’s absurd it’s like I’m not getting any good rewards or even any good gopple gums. I hardly get 4 gums per round 50 and they’re all trash. For getting to such a high round and to get glitched out and fucked over, and then to get no rewards for completing it. It’s absolute bs. Like i absolutely love zombies and the game is good for the most part but like to get absolutely pitiful rewards for the amount of difficulty and bugs I encounter just feels like garbage. They need to fix this shit
I love how the mangler cannon fireballs are also basically heat seeking missiles
Armored zombies, vermins, and parasites are my biggest issues with high rounding
Your round 98 footage is why I laugh when people say older zombie gameplay was harder. You could literally run circles around them at round 100.
17:10 YES!! Perfect high round equilibrium we need is how it is at round 25 with rampage inducer for a variety of strategies.
This video really shows everything
Me and my other 2 friends did a round 51 boss. I couldn't recover. We didn't have enough money at the end to finish the boss so we unfortunately failed. I agree with the points that you mentioned in the video and what could be improved.
I feel like a kinda stupid simple, band aid fix would be more pack a punch levels and changing the cost scaling. It would be more like 5k -> 10k -> 20k -> 40k. It would increase raw damage of the guns and also not have a totally awful cost to get each pack level.
no one wants bo4 pap back, and doing THAT system would give people bo4 and iw zombies feels
With the current way points are given we would have no way to get that many points. Past round 37 or so I cannot make any points due to cost of ammo.
@John-bn7ux if you can secure 50 kills per ammo restock you're doing ok, the issue is the heavies and manglers take SO much ammo it's always net loss
I love that we have Milo’s whiteboards and Doughnuts graphs. THIS is the class I signed up for. Yall need to collab on his podcast about all of this.
Thank you. Also, the head hit box on heavy armored zombies is completely broken/inconsistent. On top of taking several shots to break the helmet, i can't even get crit hits on them as a reward.
Now I know I wasn’t tripping when i tried to headshot them
when they get close to me it is literally impossible to hit them in the head, I have to back up and aim for the neck or chest and it just counts as a headshot, it is so noticeable.
Yep. Noticed this over and over when I was abusing the boat pile up. Also the fact that so many people would rather sit in a pile up than actually play the game is very telling of how annoying and tedious this version of zombies is.
@ people always used exploit and glitches, it’s not new .. back in the day people were doing it and there was no camo
i noticed after hitting them on the head they move their head like a boxer it’s annoying you need like 2 sec of interval time for them to readjust their head normal
26:59 My counter argument to this is deadshot. Deadshot is a perk that when aiming down sights it automatically targets the head. Maybe a better balance would be fewer armored zombies. I honestly don’t know. However I personally enjoy shooting the helmet off of a zombies head.
its not the amount of mangles or the zombie speed or damage , the fix is OUR Damage -if we did enough damage no one would have an issue.
The issue is armor.. tweaking our damage just breaks the entire early round balance
Loving the graphs mate. Makes everything easier to understand. Keep up the good work.
He speaks for all of us, treyarch, please hear us.
You're doing a great job with making these Videos. You're helping us more than you think bro. Well done 🤝🏻
I just feel like there should be a pack level 4 that cost 100k essence and a red ultra rarity for 10k scrap. Can even make the zombies health step up until round 60 or so. The mangler spawns don't bother me, especially needing 30 for diamond camos, I did 3 smgs diamond in 1 45 round game. The abominations at the higher rounds have way to much health, they arnt hard or even annoying, just bullet sponges.
@@zacbarrett8875 branching off your idea, they should make this new rarity only available after round 50 or 60 so no one is too OP too quickly
Or hear me out just buff the guns a bit lmao although this idea is cool since it’s straight up more content 😂
I would think a slight improvement to damage scaling could solve a lot
@zacbarrett8875 100k is insane when the 3rd pack only cost 30k if there was a 4th pack lvl it should be only 50k thats more than enough and the ultra rare should be 7500 scrap since the legendary is 5000 youre going way over board when it already take mad long just to get scrap n points especially with 4 people
You can one shot abominations
as someone who returned after not playing since the real mw2 , i think you are the first youtuber that didnt just spew crap about fake metas and strats for views. thank you. have a sub. also very interesting topic well done with the spreadsheets.
Whilst I'm not a fan of Double Tap 2.0 returning due to breaking early game balance, I wouldn't mind Double Tap 1.0 returning however.
It could even have a major augment like "Every bullet has a chance to split into two, dealing double damage", because then it could help fully auto weapons whilst leaving other augments available to make Double Tap helpful for other kinds of weapons.
Won't be game breaking in the early rounds wonder fizz doesn't spawn till 25
@@Paralyzed-rm6vcI'd disagree personally.
Even removing it breaking early round balancing I still don't wanna see Double Tap 2.0 return in this game because... we don't need it.
We got the current PAP system and weapon rarity system for a reason, it's the better solution to double tap's weapon effectiveness (and is far better than BO4 making you pack every gun 5 times)
@@TopSuperKickerBO4's PaP is almost as bad as Advanced Warfare's system PaP'ing 5 times is a horrible system. The 3 tier PaP we have now is a little better, but it's not great. However, if you Double Tap 2.0 game breaking for the early game why do we have Pack-a-Punch, Perks or Wonder Weapons? You're argument is "early game balance," but if you're skilled you get Tier 3 PaP before Perks or Armor, which practically does the same thing.
@@TopSuperKickerbut even with the pack a punch and rarity system it’s still not balanced so those systems fixing the issue is not true
Whats wrong with you why take double tap 1 over 2
I want to say thank you for this video and more importantly your approach to this video. I love how you rather than being cynical or negative you took the time and analyzed the problem that you saw and then you looked at it from multiple angles and compared it to other experiences. I think too often now days people in this community see something like the unbalanced high rounds and simply say this sucks BO6 is trash which isn't true. I also really love how you took into account the developers perspective on how they created the game and as a game developer myself I really appreciate this because there isn't enough credit being given to them for what they have tried to do. They really have worked hard to give us a more engaging and fun zombies experience and as you mentioned there definitely are some problems with it currently but I don't think that those problem should completely discredit the good that they have done. I honestly believe that if they can get the balance issue to a better place BO6 overall could stand on a pedestal close to BO3 (because let's face it BO3 die hards will never accept anything is better then BO3) . So Thank you for taking the massive amount of time to truly diagnose the problem and make this video. I hope that the devs see it and take what you are saying into account.
"my guns dont deal dmg past round 30" imagine how'd they'd react in old games struggling with a PAP weapon at round 20.
Lol
Maybe in Bo1 but Bo2 Pap guns lasted till R30, sometimes R40 depending on the map
The only difference is... you know... all the power scaling. 5000 VS 90000 for max pap
@@PatentSleetMax pap is 50k but yeah
What games would that be? Waw is the only one imo and that was legit there first try like chill they got it wrong then and they got it wrong now.
the main issue isn’t the damage per second, it’s the kills per ammo refill, if you can’t kill manglers you end up net negative with most weapons
13:54 Doughnuts, I love your positivity, but a bullet sponge that fires homing explosive missiles on a game where enemies were not meant to shoot back to the player is not 'beautifully designed'.
I feel like the struggle begins early on. Salvage doesn't seem to drop enough to be able to get your guns to decent rarity even with a silencer... (Assuming you want to get more than your starter past grey tier.)
Then you run that very fine line of "Do I wanna get perks and stay weak or do I wanna upgrade and have no perks?" I swear I don't recall it being such a struggle to get somewhat stable...
Not wanting double tap back is crazy work no 🧢
Its just not necessary the games been balanced around not having it id say double tap 1 is better than 2 in this game
Just stopping in to say i love the camo tracker you posted. Its been 100x easier to track what else i need to complete. Got a new sub out of me, thank you!
I can't believe I'm saying this... but you're ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! This might be the greatest take I've ever heard! You not only back it up with research, evidence, facts, and logic, but you show passion and care about the game. I truly do believe the Mangler is an amazing enemy, and it's only getting hate for the late round spam. While I will say it can be lazy to reuse the same enemy over and over, it's different when said enemy is well crafted and iconic. We also can't forget that this isn't the only series to reuse the same mid boss/boss enemy. I really think that, like you said, the armored zombies need to have no helmets, and manglers need to have a spawn cap. I'd be OK with having more than 3 TOTAL manglers in one round, but never seeing more than 2 or 3 at a time. They keep things interesting. I also have found a bit of a love-hate relationship with Abominations. I really like how you can feed them frags, thermals, and semtexs to blow off their heads, and even kill them out right by doing this on their last head.
Every time you post a video, I’m always so curious to see what you’re talking about because you put out so much good information. It helped me a lot in my zombie life. You’re probably one of my favorite zombie creators out there.
I remember by the end of cold wars life cycle they made a good change to high rounds, they made the zombie and mini boss levels cap off around 50 so they didn’t get insanely hard to kill. And Cold War to me is still one of my favorite modern zombies experience, maybe eventually they will implement a similar change in the Future and cap the health for this games zombies around 30 instead of 50
We keep talking about it, but I honestly just believe Treyarch doesn’t want high round plays. They want you to complete the EE before round 30 and stop playing, and most casual players won’t be surviving beyond that anyways (don’t believe me? join a public match and see) so they peak the fun and then slowly let you down to gently say “Stop playing”
I have a few different points I'd like to make as a data scientist.
First of all, thank you for putting together a visualization for difficulty as the rounds progress. I think a visual is really useful in conveying the idea of difficulty in an easy to understand way that isn't strictly qualitative. I personally don't think dps or kills per second are the best way to measure this though. What stuck out the most to me was that in rounds 10-20 you calculated that there would be 15-25 kills per second. Although this is what the dps value would reflect, does it really make sense? For the saug, the faster firing of the two weapons, the default fire rate is 15.15 rounds per second. DPS assumes all damage is being dealt to a zombie but this does not account for overflow. In other words, if a headshot is a one-shot it doesn't matter what the dps is and guns dealing infinite damage will feel the same as a gun dealing the exact damage of the zombies health. This discrepancy could cause the visual to be skewed in certain places by inflating any range where you are dealing more than the maximum health per shot. I think a better value to use here would be bullets per kill (zombie health / damage per bullet rounded up) which could also be divided by the fire rate (in terms of rounds per second) to find a more accurate time to kill. This would still lead us to the same conclusion but the difference between round 15 to round 30+ would likely seem smaller.
Now what do I think could be done to improve the high round gameplay? First of all, I don't think Treyarch balances the game with high rounding as a top priority. The core gameplay loop of zombies is surviving the apocalypose for a period of time and eventually dying once you are overrun. My games usually last somewhere between an 1 and 2 hours which in my opinion is a relatively good balance for the length of a game. Making each game last longer than this fundamentally changes the game. Without playing in an intentionally unfun way (any meta strategy that is fundamentally different from how your average player would play) I think it should be impossible to progress past a certain point. I don't know how controversial that opinion is but I personally think that a 2 hour limit is about what you should be aiming for. I don't think the game should be balanced past a certain point to reinforce this as this is how zombies has always been.
With that said, I think there are definitely improvements that can be made to make the transition to those impossible rounds a little more gradual. I think the most obvious problem is the number of manglers. The gameplay fundamentally changes when you have to dodge multiple ranged attacks at the same time which most players find unfun. The two ways I see to address this would be to either reduce their fire rate in some way or to reduce the number of manglers that are on the map at any given time. This would target the issue of dodging multiple ranged attacks at once, but comes with the consequence of making the game easier which, as stated in the previous paragraph, shouldn't be the goal. As a result, the game would have to be made more difficult in some other way such as increasing mangler health (I think this isn't the best approach since manglers being bullet sponges is already a major complaint), increasing the damage dealt, or in the case of reducing the number of manglers on the map the fire rate could be increased. No matter which route is taken, I think purely nerfing manglers and not making some other aspect of the game harder would be an unfun change that would make the game easier when it does not need to be.
I'd love to hear any other perspectives on the points that I've made this far. I just think that there is a difference between something being unfun and something being difficult which can be easily conflated. The goal should be to die eventually while making it feel like there was something you could have done in that situation to prevent it even if that thing was really hard. I think introducing the health cap was a net negative since it prevents the rounds from getting harder after a certain point and turns the game into "if I can survive round 100 I will do the same thing until round 999 and make it after 200 hours or whatever" which isn't fun for the majority of the playerbase who haven't even spent that much time with the game open.
I think the problem with lowing the health cap is the fact that rounds are capped at 250 zombies per round. Lowering the health cap would also drastically change the pace of rounds. As you increase in rounds the idea of them getting longer and longer meant that instead of your focus being on the zombies health increasing it would be on the length of the round(with infinite damage weapons and strats of course). I find my issue right now being that outside of killstreaks there is no infinite damage source, like deadwire or some older wonderweapons. 250 zombies per round and 50ish zombies spawned at once made it that they had to focus on making that short 250 zombies feel challenging instead of spreading it out over sometimes thousands of kills. I can't fully pinpoint why I don't like the idea of always being able to kill with weapons. It might be because then what is the point of wonderweapons, traps, and ammo mods if you can just shoot. I am definitely biased in that I think for high high rounds you should be restricted to those three things. However killstreaks completely ruin that idea. Im yappin at this point but have never put my two cents into a conversation like this. Overall Im enjoying this years zombies much more than I dislike it. just did a round 100 run on terminus and did ee at the end. my only complaint is that I cant train without almost assuredly dying. Both maps high round strats being restrained to camping in a corner so you don't get jumped from behind or using killstreaks kinda sucks. Those are fine for being strats, but I would also like to add training with the wonderweapons, traps without the zombies despawing, and ammo mods being able to actually kill zombies would be good for me. Just a couple more options would be all I want. Also please don't put manglers in any other maps anymore. They have been in like 8 maps now or something crazy like that. Something new. Well done if youput up with reading all that. Happy zombie killing!
I agree with the kill streak strategy as the only “solution” once you get so overwhelmed that you have 3-5 manglers, 2 amalgams, a dozen bugs, and dozens of zombies you can’t do anything but run. You can’t focus the manglers cause the zombies are in the way, you can’t slow down cause the amalgams, you can’t loop cause if your armor breaks then the amalgams insta down you. There just no fun way to actually dance and fight. The best strat I found is just run, focus on the few zombies infront widdiling away the horde until it’s mostly just manglers and amalgams then finally focus the amalgams so they don’t heal. Kill streaks are the only way I find to easily widdle down the horde when it gets tight.
Absolutely spot on summary at the end.
I’m a very average ability player (and an older player) an quite frankly it’s just very tedious and not much fun when you hit a certain point (for me that’s by about round 30 if not before). I don’t see the point in continuing beyond. It just feels like a lot of very hard work for no reward.
Mind you, I much preferred the open world of Modern Warfare Zombies! I would love to see that come back, maybe with much longer games of potentially 2-3 hours instead of the 45 mins, and with deeper more complex content.
Your effort in reverse engineering the details of what makes this game tick is immensely impressive. Thank you for being the community zombies mythbuster!
I’ve learned when training to just ignore the manglers until the end of the round so they are the only thing left. It makes the rounds so much smoother
(Full discretion I mostly enjoy easter eggs and not super high round gameplay due to physical limitations) I feel like I might be the odd one out saying this but I enjoy the difficulty spike in BO6. The last COD I played was CW because of the zombies refresh and that was super accessible for newcomers, being a fair bit easier than previous titles. I rlly like this year's change to zombies spawns, dmg, and training potential, it just keeps me on my toes when just running backwards. That said, I'm not at all opposed to tuning changes in BO6. I could absolutely use some more ammo during later rounds lol 😅
You put a crazy amount of time and effort into that graph. Respect
Zombies players love a long experience, it makes you feel like you set up correctly for the game mode. The devs are too focused on creating a 30-45 min experience. They say it’s for the “casual crowd” but I think it’s simply for server usage. We don’t want to set up from zero every 30 min so we just log off for the day and that makes their online servers receive less elongated traffic.
This video is so well edited and researched, I hope it gets brought up by the algorithm.
There's a few ways I'd change manglers. Either doing variants, basic ones that don't have the armor on the head and maybe weaker armor on the chest so you get rewarded for getting critical shots on them still, then having the fully armored one we have right now showing up less often, but still here and there. Or when you shoot the charging cannon it would do a little AoE blast around the mangler that stunned other elites nearby with a decently generous radius, giving you the chance to maneuver or chain some cannon destructions and instantly killing zombies in a smaller radius around the mangler. Changes like the latter in particular could keep a similar difficulty ceiling, but give you skillful options to tackle it with.
2 things that may be interesting to add to the conversation:
-Mangler spam would be less agravating if the projectiles weren't homing.
-When things like Mimics/Disciples/hell, why not Gladiators get eventually added we may realise that "Mangler spam" is actually "Specials spam"... It's just that there is currently only one special zombie in the game.
For my solution I was gonna suggest adding double tap 1.0 perk and having a doubletap 2.0 major augment that doubles damage on armored zombies only. That way the weapon balance isn’t destroyed at lower rounds and at higher rounds the perk helps deal with the annoying armor. But I actually like your solution much better. Making it so that armored zombies aren’t armored at the head seems like a much better solution.
I hope they see this video because I couldn’t agree more. As someone who enjoyed high round grinds in the BO trilogy that started it all, the methods they’ve used recently to make the game more difficult in high rounds make the game way more annoying than fun. Even in a Dark Souls, as difficult as it is in theory, if you’re highly precise the difficulty never feels unfair or unreasonable like BO6 does currently.
The most common complaints from my friends are not doing enough to armor specifically, manglers having homing shots, and just having too many special enemies in the first place
The bo6 gameplay and design philosophy is way better than the infinite scaling bs. Just needs some tweaking. Personally I enjoy having 2-4 elites per round
Finally someone said it. No training is why high rounds suck. Manglers knocking down the hordes is horrible.
Thank you donut! I've been waiting for someone to tell them thay went to far. I'm a OG zombies player from ww2 from the beginning and thay have gone into left field with this mangler thing. Thanks again!
I haven't played a cod since infinite warfare, bought this game the other day and I've been playing a ton of zombies, I'm halfway through my opals and I bought the game 6 days ago.
The main thing that struck out to me immediately when I played my first couple of games was how many things you have in the game just to keep you alive... In bo2 for instance you had jug, monkeys and quick revive (which could only be used 3 or so times on solo), in this game you've got jug, armour, decoy grenades (which can be equipped in your loadout), monkeys, all the scorestreaks make you invulnerable with the exception of the mangler cannon, self revive which can be recrafted over and over again (I believe), aether shroud/ frenzied guard... and tbh all of the field upgrades can get you out of a pinch and then also you have other things that will make you invulnerable which are map dependant, such as the code on nathan in terminus.
There is just so much to keep you alive in spots where you make a mistake and get cornered, it feels like it's impossible to die sometimes, you can practically cycle your way through all of these different methods to get zombies off of you and so the only way the game can make itself difficult is with mangler spam.
I feel like they need to work on that, if you make a mistake and get cornered, you should probably die.
beautiful presentation, calm and collected, beautiful. love the positivity
I like the professional approach
I think if they want to keep people attracted to zombies, I hope someone important see this and maybe we enjoy high rounds this year!
Really great to see the multiple aspects you show
one of my personal theories on the health cap is, it's a live service game, and they can't have impossible zombies running around every other round
Donut’s, bro if they ever need a college professor to teach zombies you’re hired. Math teachers y’all need to get on this data train.
I never see anyone use traps on high rounds like they arnt highkey op af makes manglers so much easier to deal with 30+
Never seen your content before. Excellent video and analysis (just subscribed). I think another issue that contributes to the balance conversation is the points system. 1 kill per second (ignoring non-regular zombies) means you’re burning through ammo, but you only get points per kill rather than per hit like before.
I was super disappointed to realize on my second game that I didn’t have enough points for ammo, but then I remembered wall guns and got excited again. Then I realized it took 2-3 full magazines to kill one armored zombie even with headshots and just quit the game
Dude! I never thought that i needed a Zombies graph, thanks a lot D. Love you ❤️
this video is what everyone in the community needs to see
Off the top of my head double tap being brought back but something more like the below would be great to me.
Double tap:
Base ability - 25% increase to fire rate & bullet penetration.
Major 1 - 25% Increase armor penetration damage.
Major 2 - pack a punch tiers cost 25% less
Major 3 - double weapon damage for 20 seconds when field upgrade is activated.
Minor 1 - weapons obtained from the wall or mystery box earn 10% more essence (icon will glow when holding eligible gun)
Minor 2 - 15% further increase to fire rate
Minor 3 - 20% increase in reserve ammo
I feel like this is way more balanced than just doing 2.0.
First minor is me having abit of fun with the idea of a perk enhancing the use of classic systems
This was your best video yet.
High rounds being like round 30 with the rampage inducer would be the dream
The DE gameplay looks so good I miss old zombies so much the element bows were so awesome and the detail in the maps was so good
1.) Bring back the OG point system.
2.) Bring back BO3 ammo mods.
3.) Reduce mangler spawn rate/add a cap.
4.) Add Double Tap.
5.) Add basic gobblegums.
6.) Reduce wonder weapon rarity and expand their usage somehow.
They should decrease the zombie health cap, decrease the mangler spawn rate, but INCREASE the mangler health/ damage mitigation. This makes it so camping is advantageous for quickly going through rounds with the downside of manglers getting funneled toward you making it more dangerous, or you can horde zombies which makes all enemy management easier with the trade off of being significantly slower. Then you have your elite rounds which gives you a reason to use your WW a bit more.
I think the solution is very simple.
We need more things to upgrade ourselves into the later rounds... By round 30 we are fully geared. Pack level 3, all perks, max armor. We need something to keep grinding towards and keep upgrading so we can continue scaling with the zombies.
I'm not sure if that means more packapunch levels or maybe more weapon rarities, idk. But there definitely should be something
@ Doughnuts no other streamer is talking about these graphs and numbers. You are digging into the components/programming of the game. This is Treyarch developer talk; and congrats on the 99K subscribers.😄
4:35 this is REALLY cool indeed lol. That graph looks like my experience/level of enjoyment hahahahaha
Okay so:
*Reduce the insane zombies health increase /heathcap on high rounds to where it is between 7-4 (probably 6 or 5) kills per second.
*Max mangler spawns at a time = 2
*A bit less armoured zombies / armour has less damage mitigation
That should fix a lot of things right?
So, I remember during the Terminus early gameplay, we were told that Treyarch said they are planning to make the game more difficult still, but they just don't know how. It feels like they just said, "manglers are hard, just make more of them show up." And we are just going from there. I don't doubt that behind the scenes they are working trying to figure out the "perfect" balance.
Honestly, I get it, its a really hard balance to make. In my opinion, one of the best ways to do this would be
1. Cap the amount of manglers/elites on the map at any given moment
2. just remove armored zombies
3. Some sort of health adjustment
Capping the manglers out at 2 or 3 just creates more consistent gameplay that doesn't become a bullet hell with 8+ manglers all at once on top of a horde of super sprinters.
The armored zombies, in their current state at least, is the definition of "artificial difficulty" imo. All it does is reduce the ttk without providing anything else, and with the health cap the way it is we are better off without them. However, I do think your suggestion of just removing the helmet to reward players for being accurate is fine too.
I really don't know the best way to "fix" the health, it could be lowering it, or it could be something like another PaP tier to further increase damage.
As a avid high round enjoyer since bo1, it feels like Treyarch has been trying to find the perfect balance since then and just haven't quite been able to hit what they are looking for.
I think having a "beta" and just changing things to test them and listen to player feedback would have been best, which they technically still can do, and maybe should?
This meta may be a placeholder until we get many more variety of enemy types, it's still a developing game as we speak. I Enjoyed this video, well done!
11:50 thats one of my sour points, that it takes so long to kill zombies in the horde that they spawn new ones behind you and you can get trapped if you aren't careful.
21:40 "Base Jugg" I always forget about augments