Whistleblowers Vs Boeing: What Happened?
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
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What are whistleblowers and how important are they for the aviation industry, and… why is it that Boeing and its suppliers have so many of them lately? Well, we definitely live in a world where whistleblowers are necessary but recently, we tend to hear about them for the wrong reasons.
Stay tuned.
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Below you will find the links to videos and sources used in this episode.
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Why does Boeing risk it to unalive them? Perhaps they are hiding something much worse.
Good job it is all about. About money no one wants to be held accountable for the job right the first time prided in your self your work and knowing people's lives are at stake are you willing to fly in that airplane or have loved one go up in that airplane
that segue was really poorly constructed. no, whistleblowing does not often involve big data analysis.
You are usually a lot more direct about things. I imagine given what you do for a living maybe it’s hard to speak your mind the way you want to here.
This looks really really bad for Boeing from a legal perspective, like murder investigation bad.
No one should have to worry about getting murdered by their employer, especially not for doing the right thing.
Additionally I would say that the deaths of these two men are paramount and matter the utmost because of the likely implications.
If you smell smoke, fire probably isn’t far behind it. I mean come on.
The reason there ARE so many whistleblowers right now is because there ISN'T an in company ear open to hearing those concerns. These people really did have to become whistleblowers and this should be considered the most serious red flag of safety out there.
I can honestly say that there is now an effort to give employees an opportunity to voice their concerns. We have started having "stand downs" where everything comes to a halt, a large meeting is held with senior management in attendance, and is recorded. Employees are encouraged to voice concerns and grievances and to offer solutions. Even in my role as a simple paper-pusher, I am encouraged to speak up and participate. Now, in saying this, whether or not it's all for show or a legitimate attempt at making ourselves better remains to be seen. I'm trying to stay positive, but they're going to have to show me that they can walk the walk as well.
@@davidline3437 I fear it really is too little too late and for show. They're in trouble now and trying to save face, but since it will help I guess we can't look a gift horse. But honestly, trust is gone for most of us.
There were many red flags before this, but now it is obvious to many more
A lot of companies make this extremely difficult (if not impossible) to do this anonymously. They want to know who to punish.
@charlotteinnocent8752 That's exactly what I told the senior manager. They've lost our trust, and it's a long road back. I'm staying skeptically hopeful. There's good managers out there that are trying to re-prioritize safety over profit.
There is a generally accepted rule in construction of all kind : you can not have quality without control, thus inspection. And that can not be done by the person who performs the work. That is generally accepted and proven, but at Boeing they think differently.
Not fully true, at least for asphalt. Whether it’s little county roads or busy state highways, part of the inspection/QA process is done by employees of the contractor.
@@trevorflegler6563perhaps they meant QC *shouldn't* be performed by the same people doing the work
@@ytlurker220 but it’s literally my coworkers doing the QC/QA. That being said, there are times some part of the paving process FAILED due to input from the QC lead.
@@trevorflegler6563 He's not talking about what DOES happen. He's talking about what SHOULD happen.
I work in a skilled trade, and there are two different trains of thought regarding inspectors. in my train of thought, the job of the inspector is to catch my screwup before it becomes a problem. in the other train of thought, the inspector is the guy you're trying to keep from catching the corners you cut. in either case, the inspector shouldn't be the person doing the work, because either way, the person who did the work thinks what they did is good.
Excellent video. In the mining industry there are similar problems which can only be addressed by prioritizing safety over production. This is why at our mine everyone has the right to stop work if they feel something is unsafe, and if they do not & there is an incident, there will be consequences.
Greetings Captain, From a true fan. I share your optimism and hopes of what it should be and how to implement it but, as long the management follow how the money talks and the interest of investors over safety, the problem will continue to the point of crashing the whole company. So far looks like this necessary change of management mentality has not happened as of today. Insanity is to keep doing the same, expecting a different result. Thanks for your insights and keep the great service you are doing. I am an A&P, I salute you from Puerto Rico.
I think the key to fixing this WHOLE PROBLEM is convincing the Boeing board of directors that even though they have to ensure profitability of their company to shareholders they must also explain to those shareholders that if their product is at all considered unsafe by the public then nothing else that they do will bring back the profits that they once enjoyed.
Tools and items left inside the aircraft (10:53) is simply unacceptable.
Video was very intriguing! Looking forward for future uploads.
I feel so bad for them and their families… it feels like the next person who dares to speak will go by way of falling out the window Russian style.
Liars, dishonest and incompetent people work everywhere. I tried to move ambulance service 20 years ago, it would have resulted in a cost for the service I worked in. With my experience I was offered the job and then told that my sickness record was too high for employment. I asked how 5 days in 12 months from a work supplied meal which caused food poisoning for 20 employees was prohibitive. I was told that my record was 23 days in 12 months. I asked for it to be looked at and my supervisor was identified as altering my records adding 18 days. She was terminated and prosecuted for the illegal access. I then was subject to three harassment and bullying complaints by three fellow workers, the firstshe was my station manager and two others, one a trainer and she hadn't trained me the third worked in control and I never met her. It turned out that the station manager was the live in partner of the woman who altered my records and the other two were together and used to go on holiday with them. I never got to move and my contract wasn't renewed.
Imagine building planes for a living, knowing about a safety discrepancy, conforming to management's reckless safety policy, then hearing news about a deadly plane crash, realizing you helped build it. Being punished and banished by management for whistle-blowing doesn't sound so bad at that point.
Where share value and profit become the driving force in how a company operates, the temptation to squash bad news becomes more than the senior execs and board can resist. The inability to comprehend that being seen to be transparent about how a company operates always amazes me, seeing as public confidence often impacts share values!
The fellow who warned his employer, Alaska Airlines about the horizontal jackscrew issues before one of their MD80's went inverted off of LA, was terminated and can never work again. The culprits still work in the industry.
Bet you haven't changed your oil or your fan belt or your tires yourself in years. Maintenance, maintenance, maintenance! All modern airplane flight controls programming is done in ln'dia now. That seems safe. 😂🎉
@@robertmarmaduke186Wtf are you on about?
@@kassidyryzer2909😂
@@robertmarmaduke186 it is safe as long as it is not done by you specifically
@@SparkkyBojangles alt detected
One of South Africa's most famous whistle-blowers once said that people pretend to like whistle-blowers, yet people won't hire someone who previously lost their job for doing this.
Isn't that interesting. Being admired for having the guts to speak up and then branded as being a troublemaker for doing so.
There are different types of whistle blowers - the ones that have the capacity for critical thinking and understanding the process and so on and the Karen type whistle blower. I don't think that the first category has issues findig a job if they're good at what they're doing. They have other type of issues. As for Karen types that make it to the news , it's self explanatory that they'll never be hired again by anyone that knows whom they are, I wouldn't either.
@@MandaClaudiuMCM
You type this as the whistleblower who expose Australian and UK warcrimes in the mid east is being (perfectly legally) prosecuted for blowing the whistle on said warcrimes.
Not only is he never been employed again, he might end up in jail for life.
Whistleblower thunderdome.
If the whistleblower wins they get to be CEO.
@@anivicuno9473 neither you or I are government employees that have access to secret files in order to give an unbiased opinion on the situation, also your argument is a very very very particular type of whistleblowing.
I had the reputation of having the guts to speak up and getting grief from management. Then later co-workers would under their breath say to me thanks for speaking up. I would actually be irritated by this and tell them that if I am the only one to speak up, then Managment can easily dismiss what I was saying, but if others would to, then MAYBE issues would be addressed.
You speak words of wisdom. When the moment of truth comes for lets say 10 employees to confront management about safety concerns and a toxic work environment of those 10 there will be 8 of them that will back down.
@@danburnette7674 Yes. People suck.
Most people are cowardly sheep. This scenario is the perfect example. I've seen it many times. Watching grown men cower is deeply disturbing.
It is a lose - lose scenario. If staff don't whistleblow, they will be framed for negligence when the Boeing aircraft inevitably crashes. If they try to avoid this situation by blowing the whistle, they are punished or sacked and when they try to get compensation by testifying, they get killed. The only way to avoid this is not to work for Boeing or its subcontractors.
Exactly. One of the best comments I've read.
Bet you have a portrait of Greta Thunberg in a red bandana on your wall. Air travel by Boeing is safer than riding your bike, or crossing the street, or visiting your local 'healthcare' center.
@@robertmarmaduke186 What a bizarre comment. Greta Thunberg has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Nice attempt at deflection, though. Anyhow, if you have any moral compass, then you'd realize that the reduction of any unnecessary deaths caused by carelessness and/or greed is a moral good.
@@robertmarmaduke186
Jeez! - Is this a Boeing official restating Boeing's policy on how Boeing is going to improve its horrible safety and quality issues? No, quoting Greta Thunberg is not a quality control measure, won't improve Boeing's total contempt for aircraft safety or quality control.
@@pisquared1827 Jeez it's the Airbus Flame bot!! 850 bicycle riders and 3,375 pedestrians were mowed down last year, and they didn't even have a Fast Pass! 1,700 American die of Pharma pills and medical malpractice _every day._
I was a whistleblower at Google. I’m glad you shared the realities of whistleblowing. Too many people have misinterpretations of all that whistleblowers do. Like you said, most of what is done both before and after the whistle has been blown, is behind the scenes. Anyone who cares enough to blow the whistle cared enough to try absolutely everything in their power to fix the problems through “proper” channels. And after all of that effort and care you tried to put into the company and the product, the retaliation comes. I got fired and filed an NLRB complaint. I’ve lost any chance at working at a top tech company. I lost a lot of friends too. If you are friends with a whistleblower, you might be one too. A couple months before trial, I almost took my life. It was a really dark time. I’m doing a lot better now, but even still I have to live with the consequences.
I was a whistleblower for LOT Polish Airlines. The rest is a copy-paste of what you wrote.
I hope you don't regret your actions. You cared, you did what's right. You're a brave and valuable person. They don't deserve you. I wish you get better and find your peace. Take care.
This comment should have more likes..
I don’t believe you
@@bobwobbabble5151 🚩
@@bobwobbabble5151 Good thing that doesn't matter.
My brother worked at Boeing in Everett, first on the 777 line and then subsequently on the KC-46 line. He too, had many complaints about quality control at Boeing, or perhaps I should say 'the lack of quality control'. His comment was that they were pushing aircraft off the assembly line faster than they should have been, thus not allowing all components to be installed properly or with substandard parts. Also, FOD (Foreign Object Debris) was being left inside the airframes as they were pushed out to the waiting final line. He became so fed up with their lack of attention to detail that he quit his job. This was a job which he looked forward to before these disheartening and frustrating events.
Poor company morale is a big factor in poor workmanship which leads to poor moral which leads to poor workmanship.....People just turn up for the pay, not the satisfaction of a task well done.
So how does this lack of quality control is manifesting itself? As far we as we can see those beoing planes are not crashing and are some of the safest out there. So that seems in conflict with your and your brothers statement. How do you explain that? And how do you also explain that other people working there would have opposite comments and are proud of their work there? In fact you can read such comments under beoing manufacturing videos here on RUclips in which they also mention that the quality is there instead of lacking as in your comment. How do you resolve these conflicting statements?
@@dreamthedream8929
Max 8 would like a word. So would Alaska Airlines door plug.
Not crashing isn't the level of safety you want from an airliner. Not having faults is. And Boeing's been having a lot of those lately.
@@tin2001 only crashed twice and they have flown so much without any other crashes. That would seem like a very good safety record for many. Unless of course you hold aviation to a lot higher standards of safety than most other things in your life. In addition we have no evidence of those many faults that boeing apparently has been having so much lately as you say. We have whistle blower claims but its up to them to show the evidence and data. So far looks like we have not heard any of that while I've heard that the evidence contradicting their claims already has been submitted to aviation safety organisations. Numbers speak for themselves. There are no crashes or very little in boeing planes. It's still far safer than most other things in your life but apparently you for some reason hold aviation to a lot higher standard of safety than most other things to which you don't even give a second thought in your daily life
@@dreamthedream8929 I believe you’re missing the point. Thankfully, no planes have crashed in a couple of years but the lack of oversight by a QC process is leaving the door wide open for a major disaster to occur. The mentality of Boeing’s workers has dropped so significantly over the past 30 years, after the McDonald Douglas merger, that serious management changes need to happen to bring back the pride of a job well done. Sadly, it seems the employees are feeling a ‘why should we care’ mentality.
One 737 Max falling out of the sky looks like an accident, two in quick succession looks like a problem - one Boeing whistleblower dying unexpectedly looks like an accident, two …
The key to getting away with a murder is to not be a suspect in the first place. Its unlikely that the company would've done it since they'd be the main suspect. Heck, it could've been someone hired by Airbus to tarnish the reputation of their competitor.
@@ryelor123 Bad take. It was either make them disappear or have them continue running their mouth. Do you think the company really thought "Oh but I am going to be a suspect!; I am going to have to watch my 110 Billion Dollar company be destroyed because I might be a suspect!" ?
¿The most sought after and efficient of all aircraft designs, 737MAX, has a problem? I don't think so. 737MAX has a corresponding pilot recertification simulator program with every airplane sale. The two foreign airlines that crashed _declined to have their pilots certified on 737MAX._
Let's point out the fuselage where the door hatch blew out are made by Spirit, who also makes fuselages for Airbus. The engines are made by Rolls-Royce and GE, who also makes engines for Airbus. The seats and galleys are by Ipeco which also makes seats and galleys for Airbus. Etcetera. Aircraft maintenance is by individual airlines, who send their planes to 3W maintenance centers, and the control systems programming is done in ln'dia!
Let's share the credit with everyone who touched these planes! Boeing airplanes are still safer than riding a bicycle, or crossing the street or going to your local 'healthcare' center.
Do you know what naive means? That kind of thinking only leads to more deaths! You’re ignoring the obvious.
But the whistle blower dying has had the opposite effect, it hast improved Boeings position at all.
A culture of hiding mistakes and retaliation against those that raise concerns seems pretty normal in an American multinational. Those that stick their head above the parapet are given a rough ride. Work loads increase exponentially, remuneration is cut and the ‘culprit’ is ostracised but the actual problem remains unchecked. Thank god I’m about to retire.
Hats off to all whistleblowers. As someone with a career in health and safety I am saddened by the total disregard of this crucial matter. Money has become more important than human lives.
Always been. Money always was more important, than human lives.
Become? Always was.
More quick money than money. In aviation the long term costs can be counter-productive, as Boeing are finding. If there were enough aircraft manufacturers around, per a previous MP video, I doubt Boeing would still be selling planes, except to US airlines maybe. (I actually check the planes I'll be in before booking flights.)
I would love to know why those with huge media platforms like reality-denier climate-denier Alex Jones Infowars aren't terrified of whistleblowing & "going up against the establishment & government"?
I remember when Alex Jones spoke out against GW Bush & the illegal Iraq War in 2003, and spoke out against the two-party dictatorship in the USA and called the "leftwing vs rightwing" paradigm bullshit. As an American Green, Atheist, Antinatalist Animal Rights Vegan (AAARV), and also supporter of other oppressed silenced patriotic American political parties: Marxist, Socialist, Communist, Anarchist (not a party, obviously, but an ideal), Separatist, Transhumanist. I completely agreed with Jones doing this. Up until he started to attack climate science & climate scientists.
So then why does he attack ONLY Democraps, and ONLY Liberals/Leftists, NEVER the far worse FAR more evil FAR more hypocritical republicunts & conservatives? Why does he side with the big fossil fuel industry?
Seriously: if Newsmax & Truth Social & Xitter & Alex Jones are so oppressed & silenced & are such vocal whistleblowers,
then why aren't they TERRIFIED of being so vocal?
We live to build the empire, pay taxes and die, all in the name of greed and wealth
Kudos to the whistleblowers! However they should be aware that:
1. They are likely to be tarnished professionally for years if not decades.
2. Their careers will be jeopardised and their lifetime earnings will fall dramatically. Their family lives will be affected in ways that are impossible to foresee.
3. They will watch some of the bad actors become ever more senior, often become board members, gain Knighthoods here in the UK etc.
4. They will wonder what is being said to potential future employers. In my case it took nearly fifteen years to find out how my professional reputation was being smeared. This was after I won a court case.
5. Organisations with bad actors at a senior level will carry on the personal attacks for many years.
There are literally no protections in any country I am aware of to effectively protect whistleblowers.
If I found myself dealing with professional thieves again I like to think I would behave in the same way as I did. However, it is an extremely rough ride. Each time I see a whistleblower come forward I applaud them and simultaneously cringe for their future.
Back in the 1980's, W. Edwards Deming talked about what he called "the five deadly diseases of management," which at the time explained why so many American companies were losing to (mostly) Japanese competitors. Some businesses listened to his warnings, but the former executives at McDonnel-Douglas clearly did not.
If anyone's curious, the RUclips channel for the Deming Institute has an interview that Dr. Deming gave on the subject in 1984, which is still shockingly relevant today.
Unfortunately not enough people remember Mr. Deming these days.
I learned about the Deming method for manufacturing QC and found it logical & inspiring. In a way, it boils down to 'you (the business/manufacturer) pay it now or pay it later'. If a product (whether it is a widget or a car/aircraft of many widgets) is built & assembled properly, allowing for the process to identify & rectify potential defect(s) right then and there, then the cost of such deliberate process will be miniscule compared to what you will incur later on through lost sales, under-warranty repairs, and reputation damages. Japanese car manufacturers took his philosophy & method to heart, leading to Japanese cars consistently topping the reliability list for years. American manufacturers, from GM/Ford/Chrysler to now Boeing, on the other hand choose to go down the path of outsourcing their operations and short-term cost cuttings (to boost stock price), thereby handicapping themselves of any ability to affect the quality of their products. There are reports of the profit margins for Toyota & Honda for a small subcompact being more than what GM & Ford earn from their top-of-the-line SUVs. As for Boeing, it is now finding out that the reputational damage is real and potentially torn asunder, not counting the compensations to victims of the MAX crashes and loss of business by its customer airlines.
Thank you for mentioning Dr. Deming. In Japanese manufacturing a line employee can stop the line if
s/he believes a flaw cannot be fixed while it is running at speed. As explained by another here, the
Japanese automobile manufacturers whacked the U.S. manufacturers sideways by establishing
themselves as dependable-quality manufacturers in the minds of the public worldwide. There you
have why I was not sad to see the tribulation the U.S. manufacturers went through a few decades ago.
They soiled their own pond. The Japanese (and some western) manufacturers listened to
W. Edwards Deming.
Yes, Deming's ideas were roundly rejected by US manufacturers as 'zero faults' in manufacturing was cloud cuckoo, the economics of 'diminishing returns' made such an idea economically unfeasible. So he took it to the Japanese who embraced it enthusiastically and it became the engine room of the Japanese post war industrial revolution.
Kazen, Total Quality Management (TQM), Six Sigma, etc, etc evolved from these original ideas and have continued to underpin high quality efficient and profitable manufacturing processes.
It is cheaper to fix faults at the source rather than rework down the line. And as I recall Deming was a statistician - the numbers don't lie!
19:57 This is exactly what Toyota implemented in the Toyota Production System, they call it autonomation (jidoka). If a worker spots a defective product on the manufacturing line they stop production until the root cause of the issue is fixed. This reduces waste by avoiding the manufacturing of defective products that would require fixing later in the production process.
Unfortunately, Toyotas made in various countries all over the world (France, Turkey etc.) are not the same as the Japanese originals of the '80s. (I've been working for Toyota & Lexus for a couple of years).
that is one of the parts in the LEAN philosophy, and from watching all of petters videos on Boeing, i doubt LEAN has a very big presence at Boing, atleast not anymore... (They did seem to have a Kanban board though with scheduling)...
@@Sheley7 from what I can see Boeing went to the dark side of LEAN. "More for less." That's basically LEAN mantra. They removed quality checks, again, that's lean holy grail that you can pull off when your process is flawless. They stopped repairing defects, because fixing things takes extra time but doesn't create extra value. Boeing is the Darth Vaders of Lean.
@@michalsetlakI bought the LandCruiser just because it was made at the Tokyo Toyota factory
As that whistleblower post alluded, management "metrics" are evil. Oversimplifying how you are doing into a chart always results in the wrong things being measured. People are forced to spend their time making numbers go up rather than improving company value.
Someone once said that if you turn the work into a game of numbers, then people will start playing the game instead of doing their jobs. If you set a minimum requirement, people will most of the time just do that minimum (maybe plus a small amount) so that they can always have wriggle room in case something goes wrong.
"Stepladder forgotten in a stabilizer" 😬
Yep..,
You'd expect an aircraft manufacturer to be a little bit more diligent than a dodgy contractor... but, welp, apparently not.
Maybe it's easier to fight MCAS while standing on a ladder.
@@LordKhuzdul If I hired a contractor to do a job and they left their tools after signing off...
I'd consider that a good deal, added value! /s
Reminds me of the story of a Chinook flight engineer who found a huge wrench in the engine compartment. He said he's not sure who was most negligent, the technician who left it there, or the spray painter who painted over it.
There's a British folk tale about "Seven Whistlers"
A flock of whistling birds that fly overhead at night as a portent of doom.
Oh, interesting. I didn’t know about that
@@MentourNow
A SEVEN-WHISTLERS is a small flock of plovers. According to folklore, the birds are said to be manifestations of the souls of the seven officials who aided in the crucifixion of Jesus-and so seeing them, or hearing their whistling as they fly overhead, is supposed to be bad luck.
@@ericdunn555 being australian, and hearing plovers, makes sense.
And then…?
It’s easy to promise your subordinates that you will not retaliate against them. The hard part is convincing them so.
And the hardest part: Actually not retaliate. Like c`mon, if someone points out crucial mistakes, you dont make their life miserable just because they spoke up to you. At least it how it should be, but, oh well...
I’ve been a whistleblower in Aerospace as well, over delays of notifying a customer of an escape (non-conforming product being shipped). I eventually had to leave due to harassment over other issues I brought up after that incident, and I earned the moniker “Trouble”. Left aerospace and never looked back.
As Mentour correctly pointed out those guys are Heros, if you don't like a toxic environment simply leave and pity upon the ones who stay just for a measly paycheck at the end of the day. The cost of rework is 10 times more when its product has made it past the door, and even more with product recalls which can easily bankrupt a company, for example, Boeing. Despite the financial cost of poor management and staff, companies still think they can get away with it.
Three Boeing whistleblowers ended up dead in less than 90 days...
Being a Boeing engineer that is willing to talk to the federal government is one of the most dangerous professions right now.
Yes Boeing is good at killing ... now they set their sights on whistleblowers...
Yep, speak up and you magically "commit suicide" out of the blue.
The United States is a dictatorship society masked as a democracy for the people. If people realized there is not such thing as "freedom of speech" they matrix would begin to unravel around them.
Everyone in the whistle-blower mitigation unit are basically fully vested at this point though. Good job security.
@@toms1348And statistically, you are more likely to be hit by lightning while winning the lottery on the same day than have three individuals connected to a high profile case die naturally.
I worked on a job where my duty was to fix mistakes. the project management had to make a habit of telling the rest of the crew that everybody EXPECTED mistakes to happen, and I was quite happy to fix mistakes, because that's what I was getting paid to do. but hiding mistakes, only made things worse for everybody.
That is a really good attitude for management to have. I am a school librarian, and try to bring that same attitude with me to work. I will often tell my students that I will never get angry at them for lost or damaged books, I just wanted them to tell me when it happens so that I can fix it now instead of months down the track with multiple letters home to parents.
I worked for Hughes Satellites which was bought by Boeing. As part of Boeing, we had corporate wide ethics training one day a year. Boeing tried to have everyone participate in training on the same day. Part of the ethics training was that anyone should feel open to reporting an issue, including issues that will stop production.
Boeing training was to be ethical and freely bring forward problems.
I personally had an issue with a part I designed that would be used on 3 identical weather satellites. I designed a part that had very little material remaining between an inner thread and a reduced outer diameter. But, that tiny part was a single point failure for the antenna it was part of.
When building unit 3, the part easily failed during assembly, so I felt that unit which was installed on the satellite needed to be removed and the part replaced with a redesigned part. My team leader resisted removing the installed unit saying that the unit already passed the highest level of vibration it will ever see and delays on the satellite costs $100,000 per day. I argued that every vibration may fatigue the metal and it could break during launch even though the vibration level is less than the testing survived.
This disagreement occurred during the time that Space Shuttle Columbia broke up during reentry.
When my team leader and I met with the stress engineer, he agreed with me and the team lead was finally convinced to remove and rework the unit that was already installed.
I worked at 3 major companies in my aerospace career, working on missiles, space station and satellites. Each company claimed quality was job #1. Boeing seemed closest to meaning it. I learned in the 80's that quality is job #1 until price or schedule are in jeopardy.
In the 80's, there was derogatory grumble that followed management trying to control the budget to repair issues "fix it, but don't change it." I always thought of that as a bandage which would "change it, but not fix it."
It takes a hell of a lot of courage to stand up and say something is badly wrong. I can't imagine how it must feel to have your reputation questioned and your life turned upside down, just because you blow the whistle on unsafe practices.
Thank you for another great video, Petter!
the now bankrupt airberlin had a bonus if you brought an issue to attention, they calculated how much the company saved through fixing the issue in a fiscal year and paid out a percentage (something like 5% iirc)
unfortunately, they didn‘t survive covid which is a shame as they were the best/cheapest trans-atlantic carrier based here in berlin
my guys who worked there all went to LH immediately so there is that at least
The fundamental subject is Top Management. If they really want "quality first" the methods for achieving that are well known. But most companies' Top Management are above all interested in maximizing shareholders' dividends. That's incompatible.
Not even shareholders. Modern public corporations only give dividends when they have to, their default use of profits is to give bonuses and buy back stock to increase the value of executive options. Shareholders are secondary.
@@jessicav2031 OK. But in any case, money is more important than safety.
Top management are above all interested in maximizing management bonuses.
Fixed the misspelling.
Fewer and fewer whistleblowers, because….. ☠️☠️☠️
🤣🤣🤣 you're so funny.
Putin effect
I hope against hope that Boeing higher ups didn't actually have these guys murdered. It would literally be the death of the company, no pun intended.
@@stevedavenport1202 Boeing is a defacto branch of the US Military. Of course they will off people to protect themselves.
@@stevedavenport1202
I dont think they did.
But the stress they did put those whistleblowers under might really have killed em
Who did Boeing hire to do the hits? *Agent 747.* 🤣
This is actually pure gold😂
Great video, you must have read my mind. Looks like there might be another issue coming to a number of airlines, and yes I just resigned from a company, AS6174 springs to mind. May have to email Petter with some details
Please do!
wait, let me get this right. there are laws that protect whistleblowers? then what about edward snowden? i guess those laws don't apply when a government agency breaks every rule in the book by violating EVERYONE's privacy.
those changes you talked about at the end are not gonna happen because it is far more important to keep the shareholders happy. and other people (maybe the employees, maybe the passengers, maybe both) will pay the price.
the government works in mysteries ways...good kool aid, what's your favorite flavor?
Let me correct this title: Whistleblowing vs fearing for your (family's) life.
Boeing HQ:
“Someone’s talking to the press and stirring up trouble”
“We’ll CIA about that”
"Someone's been spilling the tea"
"Get Evgeny at Aeroflot on the phone, we're gonna need more tea."
Guaranteed that Hillary still has some indirect communication with CIA, FBI, ATF, DOJ. These things have crossed over from coincidence to suspicious.
In American labor law, the practice of creating such difficult conditions in the workplace that an employee feels compelled to resign is called "constructive dismissal". This isn't illegal per se, but becomes so when used to circumvent laws prohibiting termination for certain causes, such as whistleblowing.
I got sacked from my company after whistleblowing on people breaching data protection regulations.
Any decently run safety conscious company would value employees raising concerns about safety that might cost their company large amounts of money - if any company should know this it's Boeing! Making it easy for the company to respond to problems early and address the issue should be appreciated. Decades of human factors and systems research in the aviation should be known to Boeing. Spirit putting delivery schedule ahead of QC seems to have been a result of Boeing's requests. QC is a hard job and important especially if you're not supported.
For Boeing to really get on the path to a better place and to demonstrate to the world they are making a good faith attempt to reform, all of the senior and executive leadership should be replaced.
I don't disagree, but it will be harder than that.
Axing people is easy. To make real change, you first have to understand why things are this way, then plan how to change those underlying reasons. Ready, then aim, then fire.
For example, the Board of Directors might tie executive compensation to short-term performance (I don't know if they do). Fire all the executives and your organization is in chaos. Now hire all new ones without changing the structural reasons why "all of the senior leadership" had the same awful problem, and...things are worse than before.
Okay, let's suppose the Directors are somehow at fault. Again, stop and ask why. Sometimes "activist investors" basically buy seats on the Board to promote their separate interests. So again, if you fire the entire Board without understanding why, you'll have the same interests choosing the "all new Board." It might even be worse, because often there are a few old-timers pushing to keep things from tipping too badly, and you don't notice until they're gone.
And a good number of the middle and lower level managers as well.
Not meaning to point a finger at anyone, but this story needs to be understood by other companies. Most obviously in this context, Airbus, Embraer, Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics, Northop Grumman, Textron, Bombardier, Dassault, etc.
Let us hope they see what has gone wrong at Boeing, realise they are in no way immune, and take action to prevent their falling down the same hole. It is far too easy for them to sit back and through complacency and smugness miss the huge opportunity they have now to protect their companies into the future. And their passengers and crews.
They are never going to learn it. Companies in the us are required to put profit and shareholder price above all by law. Its been tested in court. They are only obligated to the shareholders as soon as they go public.
It seems to me a bad safety culture will eventually affect shareholders also.
@@bramschoenmakers5071 Some of those companies are not in the US! And realisation that poor safety undermines not just the specific product with the issue, but every product they produce, should be seen as a financial threat to shareholders.
The bigger the company, the more products they offer, the greater the potential losses if there is a clear safety problem. Those losses affecting turnover, costs, fines, and on and on.
Safety issues, even of an aircraft that is only selling in small numbers, make everyone re-assess the entire company.
And learning isn't a one-off process. Right now, the rest of the industry can look at Boeing and try to ensure it doesn't happen to them. But, in future, indeed some company or other is going to have poor management and sloppy standards and there will be issues. But each time, the entire industry has to look at itself.
@@allesmedvesek That thinking is too long-term for most shareholders, it's all about short-term gains and pulling out before the inevitable and cyclical downturns the short-termism causes, and if it goes really wrong the government bails them out.
@@allesmedvesekshort term gains on the stock price is all that counts . I don’t care if the company sinks as long as I’ve made a profit and sold my shares before it does 😂
You are now our favourite news teller of nowadays aviation issues and stuff happening, even enlighten people of terms that are related to some subject then explain what's going on at a bigger scale 👏🏻🤝🏻
Thank you! That’s what we are trying to do
This just makes me feel really sorry for Boeing's employees. They seem really into their job, love doing it and want to do what's right, proving a safety-first mindset exists throughout the people on the floor. I can't believe management is allegedly trying to cover up and silence all these employees who come forward and the toll its taking on them goes to extreme levels. I really hope common manufacturing/OEM sense prevails soon, because the hundreds who design, assemble, test and take care of these passenger planes don't deserve to have their names dragged down with their employer, because of a few people who lost their way at work.
You are 100% spot on. Reward finding problems.
Excellent video! As per usual, you do a great job of parsing out the facts from rumors and speculation. The losses of human lives- if in part or fully due to the Boeing connections- are unacceptable by any means of running companies in a good way obviously. To me, the way forward is only one sensible choice: Exactly what you're saying. I can't find a better way to honor the legacy of the passed and the ones that no longer are with the companies.
Absolutely! What is the purpose of quality control anywhere if the project is allowed to go astray?
Need to attack it as what happened instead of who we should blame.
They do, with a high speed projectile in a quiet car park.
The reason that whistleblowers are essential is the same reason that corporations act so badly. Corporate law (as it is enacted in most jurisdictions) is inherently psychopathic. Corporations must weigh up profit at every turn. if it would cost less to proceed and be sued than it would to stop and recalibrate, the corporation is bound to proceed and be damned.
This culture cannot be changed once it has been established, even if key operational personnel are changed, because the corporate board and shareholders want one thing above all else - profit.
And protecting profits and the investment by shareholders is their only mandatory responsibility, collectively as a board of directors.
That is something which needs to change in company law to make it conditional on all other safety factors being dealt with appropriately and in line with industry and business best practices.
@@phillee2814 I agree, and I believe there are some jurisdictions that do better. Germany has local reps and trades unions on the board, which is at least a step in the right direction.
But many of our world's policy makers are also business people, making their vested interest the one that holds sway.
Difficult to see a way forward short of revolution!
Profits is the fundamental functional purpose of a company as an entity. Law and regulatory guidelines with enforcement means (like suspending or withdrawing certifications) is how we regulate their destructive impulses in this pursuit. And sadly, whistle blowers are often the only means of finding out when they intentionally and systematically avoid those rules and regulations. Because those systemic efforts are designed, formally and informally, specifically with that purpose (not being found out) in mind.
That's the reason quite a few of my friends in manufacturing flat out refused to lower quality. Once you do it (skip some QC steps, do less testing, ...) you have to basically replace all the personnel at the factory and train the replacements from scratch. Otherwise the quality will lower and stay low, costing you a lot of lucrative orders - all for that one batch of cheap crap.
Boeing would be doing better financially if they didn’t fuck up like they have. This is caused by poor management by untalented executive teams, not the inherent incentives of capitalism.
True. A Whistleblower is often a "Company Man".
Yes, that’s what I’m trying to tell people
@@MentourNow It's a shame, because their company going against a whistleblower, is essentially punishing an employee who takes pride in their work.
Btw, I love your work. You're a good & righteous man. I'm a retired now, but I grew up working in my father's drug store, & in my career, I've been an army soldier, worked for the US State Department, worked for a couple of different Forture 500 companies & a small engineering firm. I've been a contractor competing with General Dynamics & Hughes Electronics & owned my own small business. The only places, where I didn't see at least one example of someone who took pride in their work & was a "Company Man", not get alienated & pushed out for whistleblowing, was in the smaller operertions. I suppose; there's something about the size of an operation as far as the number of personel, which doesn't scale up & leads to "No good deed goes unpunished"?
Bring back small businesses. There's been a war on them & even regional businesses for decades. They should make up at least half of the Middle Class
A large, healthy Middle Class is the basis for a stable & successful long term economy.
Company Man is a great channel
@@nitehawk86yes it is
Whistleblowers in the NHS here in the U.K. tend to get dismissed. If they happen to be nurses, their registered association (NMC) tend to do very little to assist whistleblowing nursing staff
Very well done presentation on a very difficult topic.
You do an amazing job at showing how aviation issues are actually universal issues.
Thank you
In germany there is a famous clip of a politician who said something like: "today 23 more isolated cases of nazis in the police force", it sure does feel that way with boing wistleblowers dieing
23 nazis in the police is liable to give nazis a bad name
At 20:20 you mention that employee's can stop the production line for safety reasons.
Oil rigs are being built close by here, and there is a lot of lifts with cranes of really heavy stuff that can go wrong.
They have a similar policy, anyone can stop a lift if they feel it looks unsafe, even a visitor viewing it.
The lift is stopped, rigging is rechecked to make sure it is clear to proceed with the lift, even if it means they lose the schedule, as the consequences if they are wrong, is much worse.
That's the way it should have been with Deepwater Horizon.
@@ejt3708 Well if everyone only wants their job to end faster...things happen. And sometimes their job ends WAY earlier.
@@alexturnbackthearmy1907 So if you're "smart" you'll shut up and keep drawing a paycheck until lots of people die, then just say "I didn't know." Nope, makes you guilty of murder.
I am in a medieval re-enactment group (the SCA), and we actually have something quite similar. In any of our combat activities (sword fighting and archery, whether at an event or practice in a back yard), if anyone yells "Hold!", then everyone around them will straight away put their weapon on the air, freeze, and repeat the call "Hold!" again (to make sure that everyone around you heard the call as well). Anyone can make the first call- fighter, spectator, marshal, even a newbie at their very first event or a six year old child watching from the sidelines (it is probably the first safety rule we teach our kids, and we often encourage them to practice the same habit with their foam toy swords). Play cannot be resumed until the first caller identifies what the hazard was and it is rectified. And it must be the first caller, as someone else might identify a different hazard that is co-existing. No one is ever penalised (even if they were mistaken), but people who continue fighting and ignore a Hold call could well be sanctioned themselves. Because of this, a lot of tiny heads are saved from flying swords and shields, when little feet run on to the field to give their unsuspecting parent a surprise hug.
If a not-for-profit community group with over 35,000 members worldwide can do it, why can't anyone else?
@@alexturnbackthearmy1907 Some illegit entity deleted my Truthful response before. Problem with your idea Alex is that the company will eventually go under, unless it is monopolistic, and that will hurt far more people in the short, medium and long term.
I don't know if safety culture is the proper term. It's not just safety that seems to be Boeing's problem. It is production over quality. If quality is a primary concern, then safety would likely come along with it, but safety practices don't necessarily bring quality. Boeing needs a return to a quality focused culture.
Safety culture is a widely used term that specifically focuses on whether or not employees feel safe enough to share bad news with their bosses. If anything, it is a prerequisite for quality.
@@lmpeters I didn't know that. I was interpreting it based on the individual terms. I wasn't aware of the corporate definition.
@@VTdarkangel If you're interested in learning more, two excellent starting points are to read about Google's "Project Aristotle" and the research of Dr. Ron Westrum.
It is both. You can make something fundamentally unsafe to a very high quality without it ever becoming safer as a result, or you can make something to a poor quality and sacrifice the design safety as a result. It has to be safe in both design and quality of manufacture to achieve the desired result. You also need to be able to manufacture the safe design in a safe manner which allows flaws to be seen or tested for, which is a whole branch of engineering all on its own.
you know something is SERIOUSLY FUBAR when keeping the shareholders happy is more important than making a good product.
Thank you for your insight on this important issue.
Your expertise is always valued.
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you for this video. I work in healthcare and highlighted my concerns regarding safety during a team leaders meeting (expecting staff caring for people with infectious diseases to also help with those patients who are susceptible to infection due to immunosuppression including cancer patients on chemotherapy). Not only did I get humiliated in front of everyone during that meeting by the seniors present I then was taken aside after, shown the disciplinary policy and threatened with a formal warning if I did that again. I was also put on performance management. Needless to say I resigned not long after, especially as the performance management plan was created to set me up for failure by constantly moving the goal posts. In a nutshell, unfair dismissal, so I left before it got to that stage as there was no point in continuing in such a toxic environment. Unfortunately a lot more work needs to be done in all work environments to protect whistle blowers and allow workers to highlight concerns without punishment.
Here is my comment I left 4 years ago on “Logically answered” video about Boeing. Little I knew everything will go down this quickly from there:
“I worked in Boeing for many years and hate to say I told them so.
1) I thing Douglas merger was a mistake it’s bad, greedy, numbers focused management culture speeds everywhere.
2) I work a few years on weekends on my free time to finalize work which was accepted/forced by management as done, done!, but I thought it isn’t, we are risking a lot of peoples life after all. And was constantly blamed by management for wasting my time on unnecessary improvements. Of course I left as soon as it was not possible for me to work on weekend because of family.
3) Overall qualification of engineers was extremely low, especially after they move a lot of production out of Seattle to cut even more cost.
Ehh.. I’m sad, but it seems this is how cleanup works on business landscape. Big, old greedy companies have to die to open space for new competition.”
One of your outstanding reports !
You made the critical point that whistleblowers are driven-- at great personal cost-- because of loyalty to their company.
The problem is simple, Boeing does not place quality in first place, instead of profit.
Has anyone told Boeing, they can have both, but with better management prioities?
Whistleblowing IS loyalty!
One person going up against a Giant moneymaker company- you're living in a fantasy world if you think the company will actually reward employees who complain about an issue or whistleblowers'. You will be looking for another job!
It's a copout and false accusation to claim that this is true of every company.
No one is under any illusion that they'll get rewarded. It probably doesn't even enter their head. Quite the opposite in fact. They know full well the implications like in one of the WBs where he emphatically told people he wasn't suicidal. They know the score but these people have a conscience and will put doing the right thing above reward. We've seen this over the last 4 years on a different subject matter. One that should be obvious.
As long as Boeing puts stockholder interests over engineering and safety, it will never change !
But that behaviour caused by economic system - Capitalism.
@@AlexanderiusCapitalism says many people don't want to fly on Boeing anymore. Now there is more demand for foreign planes. Boeing managers are just trading reputation for quick profit. Hopefully they will soon go jail for everyone they murdered.
@@Alexanderius Correction - american capitalism. THE worst thing that could`ve happen to the world, all thanks to UK and its awful ways, that were inherited and "improved" by america.
@@Alexanderius Wrong, it's caused by human greed, something that exists in all economic systems (and often worse in others, unfortunately).
@@GareWorks you are totally wrong, greed is not an inherent human quality. It is dictated by the environment. The inherent human quality is adaptation to the environment. So, If you create a society with scarcity, then people will be greedy, but if you create a society with surplus, then the opposite will be true. It is simple.
Been waiting for you to cover this. It really is such an important topic for the industry, and very disturbing. Thank you 🙏
My pleasure!
@@MentourNowGood job on this. You might do another on the recent news that Boeing might be liable for the 737 Max crashes.
Your insights are always so fascinating.
John Barnett participated in a netflix documentary about the MAX crashes and actually, told a lot about the company. He even said that they found a stair inside the fin on a 787 test flight and just thought what would have happened if it fell to the jackscrew (national 102 2.0?). In front of the camera. He was very brave
All of what Petter has said is mentioned in DOWNFALL, they also talk ex-engineers and quality control geeks. Really cool to see it.
I work somewhere that makes safety critical parts and we have a not perfect, but pretty good quality culture I think. some of the things im hearing about boeing are mind blowing because they absolutely would not fly (heh) where I work. everyone has the ability to stop a process if something doesn't seem right, from the quality inspectors themselves and including every production worker, and nobody bats an eye when someone stops things because they have a quality concern, it's always investigated and taken care of and if it wasn't a problem, oh well, better safe than sorry! nobody is ever admonished or punished
What a great environment to work in! Thanks for sharing this positive comment among some truly frightful posts.
Gosh, aren't "sudden lethal bacterial infections" just a thing when someone is a thorn ?
Just like every time someone that bucks Putin falls out a window? Some people are such Useful Idiots.
historically, in some workplaces, things such as breaks and shift changes would be signaled with a whistle or horn. a dangerous situation would also be signaled with the same. this would seem to me to be a logical origin, as the person who blew the whistle to warn of the hazard would be the whistleblower.
"... we are dying, that's the reason we are crying..."
What are you on about?
Your videos are just champion! Clear, comprehensive and balanced - my go-to for all things aviation, accident, incident or other.
Never ever did I expect Petter to shout out the steam engine community. Fascinating topic this. My cousin blew the whistle on an se of elderly people in the care home she worked at and she was fired. She wasn’t harmed though
Whistleblowers should be rewarded after course correction instead of being fired
What a sad state Boeing is in now. Refusing to admit there are quality issue within the company and threatening former employee turns whistleblower causing the death of John Barnett.
They will eliminate anyone who get in their way
Do you have factual evidence that John Barnetts death was caused by Boeing?
@@toms1348 So did I! Thanks for your contribution to them.
@user-yd9od2xu9q , except that my comment is neither conspiratorial nor idiotic. But thanks for your reply. Cheers!
@@toms1348 It wasn’t “either”, it was both
"Whistleblowing doesn't happen because people aren't loyal - it happens because they are." Quote of the decade there Peter, well said.
I studied industrial engineering (how to make production lines work efficiently) and it’s fun that after my professors, an aviation channel out of all things gives the best advice on workplace culture
BA front office:
1. Needs to move to Seattle area.
2. Complete new BOD.
3. A BOD seat for a member voted in by Union Membership.
4. A BOD seat for a pilot qualified on a currently produced BA civilian aircraft!
The best description of whistleblowing I have ever heard / seen
Thank you
Well a quick story (just a random side comment about manufacturing, and the parts I'm describing are not critical to anything).
So at a company I used to work at, there was a set of parts that were made frequently. One part fit inside the other, with a tight fit of about 1/2 degree +/- (the size of the parts didn't matter as much). Someone (who assembled the parts) said to me one day "you know, we have to use a hammer to put these together. Is there anyway you can (make the angle more) make them fit better."
The next day I went to the department that put the parts together and asked a few other people about the parts fitting, they comfirmed what the other employee told me. This was important info for me, I knew I could produce the parts with about 1/4 degree more angle and make everybody's life easier and still be in spec for the part design. I was happy for a moment as I walked back over to my department.
Then my manager spotted me. (He says in a huff) "What are you doing! Don't you ever go over my head again, If you try saying anything to the owners I'll have you fired."
(Me in mild confusion) " I didn't go over your head. I was just asking about (so and so) part. I wanted to verify that I was making it correct, someone let me know there was a slight issue with it. I want the part to be right for when you look at it, and for it to be still in spec."
(With a scowl on his face still) "Fine, you do that. I don't want you going over to the other departments anymore at all. GOT IT!! You're waisting too much time there."
{Side note: the next week (he says) "go over to the other department, they're out a few people!"}. I say "Sure."
It didn't help that the material for that part kept changing via the suppliers each week, and sometimes the slightly different materials would get mixed into one batch, and that could effect the angle of the part by over 2 degrees. Yeah (sigh).
Anyways, it seems you get yelled at no matter what you do at some companies.
(And no, I never went over that manager, before that.) 😅 .
In Russia unfavourable people fall out of windows. A different route in the US, but with similar results.
As always, video does not disappoint. Petter's delivery, connecting to viewer as if it is they, not a camera sitting in front of him is what drew me into MenTour Pilot in the first place. Of course, the research and his (team) production values add to it. I learn with every view, and I am not an aviator. Don't lose that signature "buh bye" and point ❤.
What’s the name for a RUclips groupie?
Edward Snowden
Elvis Presley.
Julian Assange.
@@wotireckonyep, that poor guy has had his life destroyed because he exposed the truth.
Bradley Manning
@@melbar Ivan the Terrible
Those who'd like to know more about creating an active safety culture can check out the expert he mentions, Dr. James Reason. He has written a number of books and has an online presence.
While the need for whistle-blowers in aircraft manufacturers is absolutely vital, very few of these ultra brave individuals are able to keep their jobs after making the issues known! Protection across the board should be as equally vital for these brave few as the information they are trying to convey! Far more of them lose their careers than are able to keep them.
"Slip a bit." That's something we do in a crosswind, not with safety. This is an important series and I appreciate you doing it. Sadly, I think the story will not be over until even more happens. sigh.
Whisleblowers are a crucial element to weed out inept or crooked company personnel or inept crooked businesses or Government Departments or Government Authorities !!! Whitleblowers should be absolutely protected by Law and should be looked after by legitimately run businesses !!!
hiding defects on a jet should be a reckless dangerment charge
Even assuming the two whistleblower deaths were complete coincidences, people wouldn't be assuming otherwise if Boeing didn't have a serious public image issue right now (amongst all the other obvious issues). That so many people would speculate on such a thing at all really goes to show how far Boeing has fallen recently.
I do hope that regardless of the circumstances, Boeing and Spirit's problems are sorted out properly so that we don't _need_ more whistleblowers.
The average multinational seems to run on fear and intimidation, and I don't see how any of them can generate the levels of trust required to maintain any kind of "safety culture".
I get what you're saying and what would be the best in a perfect world. But I worked in corporate America for 40 years and I do not believe Boeing will ever implement what is right and just because they are not righteous and just. But your recommendations are absolutely correct.
Boeing only exuce is to blame us maintenance worker as if we have to fix everything when we take delivery 🤦
Right on the money- great coverage thanks Petter!
I am incredibly surprised, not about the way the US is about 30 years behind the rest of the world on whistleblowers but that they seemingly do not have a Risk assessment manager. Any Risk Assessment manager would point out that the risk to brand reputation and to payouts for subsequent issues far exceeds the potential cost of simply having a safe working environment that they can use to bolster their reputation in the market. Admittedly they have a MacDonald-Douglas problem that really needs to be pensioned off and return back to the Engineering Focus of Boeing of their past. They have scored an own goal with this insidious way of thinking with incredible short termist working practices that must be ditched. None of this is going to help them build a real future without rooting out from top to bottom of this way of thinking. MacDonald Douglas has really given Boeing their reputation for crashes, defects and massive repetitional damage. No wonder so many airlines would rather have a mixed fleet with Airbus.
First of all a very well made video. Unbiased and to the point. The issue point to cultural weaknesses. The newer generation workforce may not have the same"loyalty" as the older gen. They see their pay barely tick up when their upper mgmt sees double digit raises and golden parachutes. Makes it easier for them to just conform and ignore any risks. This culture shift to the old boeing will not happen overnight. As long as the c suite goes about with a business as usual attitude nothing's going to change
Meanwhile, Boeing awards their whistleblowers with self-inflicted fatal bacterial infections…
As always excellent videos, full of food for thought. What you said made me think a lot about how we work and how we should act instead. Thank you for helping so many people understand your way of thinking.
Looks like “whistleblowing” is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS to your HEALTH and even LIVING. 🤔🙏🌎
Boeing's work culture had vanished slowly after people from McDonald Douglas took over top positions. Sincere workers who kept quality in mind left. Sad story!
Didn't the the few whistle-blowers got assassinated 🤨
🤣
Prevention is far better and more cost effective than fixing. I'm increasingly disinclined to ever fly this company's planes again. It takes years to build a reputation and it can be lost in a fraction of that time.
Dear peter how u doing?I love ur programe much from ethiopia.previously I do have requested to do in Ethiopian boing Max Crash.please make it
It will come
"Solyent Green is People"...nonsense, it is made by Nabisco and FDA approved!