I Brought In 3 Local Pastors to Ask Them Controversial Questions...
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- Опубликовано: 16 сен 2024
- Join Todd Friel and three local pastors as they discuss church politics, discernment, new members, and challenges that pastors face beyond preaching.
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Wretched TV and Radio are hosted by Todd Friel. On the show, you will see and hear live witnessing encounters, discussions of tough theological issues, and Christian commentary on current events. We might even make you laugh.
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On the lawn mowing issue.
If a person is so concerned about a pastor who wears shorts while mowing the church lawn
That person should create their own act of service and worship to GOD and mow the lawn. And free up the pastor for other ministry duties.
Observational side note.
In Nehemiah 13:10-13.
The portions (offerings/tithes?) for the Levites had not been given. So the levites and singers who were performing the service each went back to their fields to work. …
Todays church body lives under the idea of grace. Tithing is optional
But remember that your - our - my tithes pay the pastor and staff, mortgage/rent and all the utilities.
It took me a long time to commit my wallet and tithes to church.
And at the very minimum
It helps in paying for the 🧻 toilet paper that gets used.
With respect. I am a "Traditional or "Classical" Pentecostal saved since 85, and what i have seen is alot of " worldliness " and carnality In churches. No doctrine, discipline etc. there's a bad representation of what a good Biblical church should be. God bless all.
Nice to see men representing respect wearing a suit at worship.
There is exactly ONE passage of Scripture that deals with how we dress for collective worship, and that passage REBUKES those that make a fuss over fine clothing.
@@dnp1776 I do every Sunday
My jacket and dress pants cost less than a modern day pair of sneakers. Try showing up for court wearing shorts and flip flops.
@@jtrivano Show me something *_from Scripture_* that suggests there is any dress code other than modesty for the gathering of the church.
When there is exactly *_one_* passage of Scripture that addresses the issue, and that passages *_rebukes_* those that make it an issue, I think you will have a hard time sourcing your view in Scripture.
It's not about the cost. It's about what you think is important.
There are factors for that. But generally, clothing should be modest at all.
Not all can wear coats and ties.
Culture and weather conditions are a factor, too. You want us to wear a coat and tie in tropical weather countries with high humidity and without aircon?
I'm a non westerner and living in a tropical country. Our modest clothes for our Pastor is either a long short sleeve shirt with a collar, sometimes with blazer or coat in an aircondition worship hall. Or our native national clothes, a Barong Tagalog, non jeans pants and not a sneaker for feet.
My recommendations for continual success for a great video.
1. Would be wonderful to see a two hour in-depth bible topic with your group. Very very good speakers.
2. It would be great to add a person in your camp but that likes to steer the ship sideways just enough to pull out new angles in the conversation.
3. Do a whole series!!!!
Thank you and May God Bless You for help others to hear The Word.
Todd, As a pastor, I appreciate this content and look forward to more like it.
Conflict resolution is a very tough issue that pastors deal with. Would enjoy a panel discussion on that, Todd. Thanks.
Yes, I agree...why is a pastor wearing shorts a big deal? He's not wearing a Speedo!
I had a pastor who wanted me to help him steal from people. His idea was to sell firewood but short them on a true cord of wood. I told him that was stealing, and I would not help him. The firewood was on my property so that ended that idea.
Another is a man who is a criminal. He has a charming way about him and people in Alcoholics Anonymous raise him up because he often talks about his time in prison. He never tells anyone that his crime he got arrested for was child rape. He has a long criminal history. He is never attacked except by me. He was also rejected by a church; they didn't want him around their daughters, but he claims racial prejudice because he's a Mexican.
The AA group attacked me and accused me of being a predator. They know I'm a Christian because I've let them know.
Reminds me of a church whose lead elder stole most of the building materials for the church building they constructed back in the 1980s.
I still don't understand why so many try to deny that elders are not just the pastors. Pastors may be one of the elders, sure, but the conflation of the two in scripture is IMO why many churches are failing at the leadership level.
Exactly, otherwise it is very close to becoming a cult. It needs checks and balances, but often even the elders all kiss up to the pastor. It takes all kinds I guess...
" Pastors may be one of the elders, sure, but the conflation of the two "
There is no person in Scripture who is called a "pastor". (Except the Lord, of course.)
Other than passages about the Lord, or types of the Lord, the word is used as a noun only when talking about the GIFT of pastor. The other use as a VERB, that is, something that is DONE.
The people who are told to DO pastoring (VERB ) are the ELDERS (noun).
Because the only one who is every called "pastor" as a noun is Christ. Elders pastor. But pastor is never used as a noun for the office. We created that distinction. Not Scripture.
So Elders pastor. Period. They may exercise personal gifts in different areas (one may preach, another disciple, another worship). But they all shepherd the flock. And they are all Elders. There is no "Pastors" as a noun apart from Elder. It's just not Biblical. And actually, I would say the Moses Model and Staff CEO models are the reason the Church fails.
@@shawngillogly6873 so I'm going to have to go back and reread a bit because it was my understanding and granted I may need to check my understanding so I'm accepting the feedback. If that is the case then the vast majority of churches are not following the actual model they're supposed to have because many of them only have one Pastor who becomes a cult of personality as the only Elder in the church. In which case you've only uncovered a more egregious sin on the part of many but I'm going to go through those Epistles later in the year and and see what I find I've never understood why the Elder distinction seems to be missing from certain churches particularly Baptist I don't understand why certain other things happen the way they do either
@@shawngillogly6873 "Moses Model and Staff CEO models are the reason the Church fails."
Yes, they are a large part of it.
All of us loving the world is another large part of it, but that's another discussion.
I went to a church were the pastor chose the youth pastor based upon they both came from the same state. When the time came around the head pastor was disappointed with his choice - the guy didn’t live up to his expectations; spending money he was not authorized to spend. Of course, he was let go. Pick them prayerfully and wisely. The Spirit will guide you.
Over 50 years of serving in some capacity and looking back there was always someone who made every effort to make trouble. Now where are they to my knowledge they’re gone. Most likely not ever saved just temporary members to do the work of opposition to Gods work.
Unfortunately..... most Pastors are over worked..... yet under employed!
I go to a church with no elders and no plans for elders. I didn't think about this until after I joined and now I'm second guessing myself on if I should remain and YES there are plenty of Godly qualified men who are capable of being an elder. My hunch is the Pastor likes the complete control of the church. Any recommendations or thoughts?
Where we live 120deg. is not uncommon. Personally, I won't wear shorts to church. But as soon as I get home.....
Discretion is advised....
I’m sorry but if you have an issue with a pastor wearing shorts while he cuts grass I want ✨nothing✨ to do with your church.
Yay! Love your videos! Always so funny too lol
James 2:1-4 "Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes comes in. If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes ... have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?"
People in the comments are saying that dressing nice should be a the standard in church to show reverence. This verse doesn't seem to care what the person is wearing, and condemns those that make a distinction. You are welcome to wear a suit if you think that is showing reverence to God and that is fine, but you cannot impose that opinion on someone else who knows that man looks at the outward appearance but God judges the heart.
A funeral is different. The Bible isn't there to tell us how to dress for a funeral. Just because society dictates how one should dress for a funeral, it does not follow that society should dictate how one should dress for church. All you have to support this is a tradition or a preference, but if you don't have Bible verses commanding fancy dress, then all you are doing is sowing division.
Then they go on to say that a pastor shouldn't mow his lawn with shorts on. WHAT?!?! I'll find a different congregation, thanks.
James is talking about discrimination based on wealth and status not based on clothes themselves. Saying people should dress nice is a respect thing. We shouldn't look down on people who don't dress nicely obviously. But, if they can get dressed up for church they certainly should, is the worship of God not the most important thing they do? If you wear a suit to work you certainly should to church, your boss doesn't deserve more reverence and respect than your Savior
@@micahm7123 I don't see the new testament advocating a suit, that is just tradition in my opinion.
@@micahm7123 I don't equate clothes to worship, and I don't know of any New Testament Bible verses that do either. If people are wearing nice clothes to work it is probably because work has a DRESS CODE and the bible does not (apart from reasonable modesty)
When it comes to accountability for members how are elders keeping up with that ? From a church I been to, the elder didn’t check on me for years until we were deciding to find a smaller church. Never got a phone call or text just asking how am I doing where can I belong. I think what many churches are missing accountability for members
Excellent
I belong to a conservative denomination. On the West Coast, resort wear was very common attire in church. I'm now in Texas and our congregation prefers men to be in jackets. This is purely a cultural issue. It isn't a biblical one.
We wouldn't dare wear flip flops and our Tommy Bahama's to a funeral, a job interview, or a dinner at the White House, but in God's house it is an exception? That logic does not fly. You wear your "Sunday go to meeting" clothing out of an attitude of reverence and respect for God and not of compulsion. Does the cost of the clothing matter to God? of course not, but the attitude of the one wearing the attire does matter to God.
@@TheInvisibleevangelistAmen! It's a matter of respect.
And obviously they get to be better than you in their suits and puff up their chests in righteous indignation! Woohoo! Power!! SMH
@@tech-mediasvc Think it has more to do with the approach to reverence.
Sounds like there is nothing "conservative" about your denomination. In fact, it just reinforces how true it is that the "Christian" denominations are all doing their own thing, even though they claim the Bible as the source of their beliefs.
The issue of church membership (on paper) is an invention of man. As is the attire one should wear while attending the assembly. The only scripture attitude regarding attire is modesty, and yet the idea of a dress code is just another invention of man.
100 percent. And a dress code since it’s invented man can change when the culture changes.
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
All of us including these Pastors fall short of the glory of God because in my humble opinion the lie that we can be like the him still seems to be quite prevalent among Christians. If we actually had the wisdom and sovereign authority that only belongs God we wouldn't be in this mess.
My distressing experience in over 50 years of conversion is that Satan will go after the leadership and stir up their egos. I have seen many--not all-- men (and their wives) really obsessed with their "great" and important position rather than being a slave to the congregation (Matt 20:25-28)
@@laurarivera5875 Jesus spent a lot of his time rebuking the sin of self righteousness for a reason. You can see how destructive it is not only to his church but to even those who practice the religion of self in secular society who we should be trying to draw close to God but turn away with judgmental hypocrisy. Like we all are not sinners or something none of us are good people some of us are just forgiven.
Wow...Paul would have a very difficult time gaining "membership" into these churches.
He was pre-trib.
@@kw5021 what is your evidence?
Paul would not worry about "gaining membership", as he preached in his letters to the Corinthians that _God_ is the One who adds to His Church. Paul's job was to preach Christ's gospel and let the chips fall where they may, not worry about convincing ppl to become a Christian.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 THAT is my point. So called "pastors/preachers" need to stop worrying about membership (politics in the church) and preach the Gospel.
@@ngrant4772 bingo
You do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures.
James 4
I can do anything through a verse out of context
@@neverpc4404 everything's out of context when you don't mind ya business, brother/sister
The problem is with the idea that there is A pastor and his flock. That is nowhere found in Scripture. But we pile a load that was INTENDED to be shared by a number of men, on top of ONE man, and then we wonder why there's a burnout problem.
I completely agree, reason why I agree with the "everyone is just an elder" approach
@@troylee4196 " I agree with the "everyone is just an elder" approach"
I have not heard that expression before. Can you explain what it means and how it works, please?
Ephesians shows Paul mentioning pastors in God's government structure. So yes, it IS found in scripture.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 "Ephesians shows Paul mentioning pastors in God's government structure. "
Where you invent that?
No one in the NT had the title of Pastor. Jesus commanded against titles among the brethren. Matthew 23: 8-12
I can agree with many of the things discussed here, but making an issue out of a pastor wearing shorts to mow the lawn is narrow minded and trivial.
i have lost much respect for pastors. they don't serve. they are not accessible. many don't teach the word . it also seems that many become pastors to get rich. except for the occasional greeting i have never experienced any fellowship with any pastor. plus pastors seem to prioritize people based on how much money they give. when i go to church i don't even seek out the pastor for they don't want to be inconvenient . also i asked some pastors if a business that was nearby that had to work on sunday; if the workers contacted the pastor on having a service on another day other than sunday every pastor said no so don't expect much from pastors other than the sunday morning service
Sorry that was your experience. Many millions of churches he's to check out.
What do you do when the local church has no one that qualifies for the position of pastor or elder? I found another church but have been facing backlash from members of the community which is a rural area.
Dealing with that exact issue. A church without a qualified pastor/elder is not a church, it’s a social club
@@neverpc4404Not true. Many churches have higher standards for a pastor than a skinny jeans wearing young guy who's all about money and numbers and a feel good message. That is the church business model that is killing churches, especially small rural ones like mine.
But in spite of this uncompromising attitude in obedience to our Lord Jesus Christ, we continue to have someone every Sunday to fill in because The Lord answers prayer! Praise be to His mighty name!🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌✝️🛐
@@TSeeker1 yes there is a biblical standard for pastors and the qualifications they need to meet. A church can be in a legitimate period of searching for a qualified pastor. I read the posted comment as one that was indifferent. If I misinterpreted the post then I would be in agreement with you
If you are using the scriptures to qualify someone to be a Pastor or Elder, stop reading Paul’s qualifications and start using Jesus’s qualifications. It is by two or three witnesses you should read scripture. Paul said good things, but his qualifications have been misapplied by church “leaders” to prevent who they don’t want as leaders. Paul himself wasn’t above reproach according to today’s implementation of his qualifications. Jesus also would have not been welcomed by most pastors today.
Ignore anything other than scriptures, and find a second source rather than cherry picking one letter that wasn’t written to you. Gather people together, and start a Bible study. Sing songs without instruments if need be. The successful churches/organizations that are still growing 20-40 years later are the ones I’ve seen that started with Bible study. If you need a good sermon to fill you on Sunday, you aren’t hearing from the Holy Spirit daily, because you wouldn’t desire a preacher, you’d want to get back into the word yourself.
Why is it that John, the disciple that Jesus loved, is ignored but Peter and Paul who Jesus both openly rebuked and stopped their actions from taking place are the people who are followed. John says that you do not need anyone to teach you, you have the Holy Spirit.
@@neverpc4404 Your first response was spot on and in this rural area a social club is exactly what it has become.
Sometimes it seems you have to be perfect to be an Elder and Pastor.
FAITH it doesn’t come easy for everyone.
Faith comes from the working of the Holy Spirit in each person. Without the Holy Spirit, all are equally lost and dead in their sins. Faith is not of our own doing or it would be a work.
I’m very curious to know which version of the Bible they are using in regards to membership… 1 Corinthians 5:5 does not say to remove the man that is immoral from membership. I am open to have anyone give me verses in the Bible that states that we have to become members of a particular church. When we accept Christ and what He has done for us, we become members of the Lord’s church.
Good meaning and understanding
6" Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
1 Cor 5;11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler-not even to eat with such a one.
Hebrews 10:25, for me, nails it down very well: "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some (is); but exhorting one (another): and so much the more as ye see the day approaching" KJV.
I think Voddie Baucham has the right idea. He said if there isn't a church near you that you can join, move. So I joined a church that I don't agree with in a few secondary issues like baptism and church government. I agreed not to make an issue out of those matters and the eldership and I agreed to disagree on those issues and I joined the church, putting myself under the authority and leadership of the session.
I would rather have my extended family attend there, baptizing their kids, if they wished, than attend another church that doesn't stand strong on doctrine.
@@stuartjohnson5686 thank you for your response, but I’m asking about membership and where in those passages does it say one has to be a “card-carrying” member?
I agree with you. We the elect, are the church. I have declared Jesus my Lord and Savior. I don't need to be a "member" of an earthly building to be a part of Jesus' church. Jesus' desire for his church was not hundreds of different denominations. His desire was for us to seek Him and only Him.
jesus preached to 5000 men, not counting women and children .... there was no kids ministry .... so why do we do it now .... why separate family units .... the world is doing that already
mowing the lawn, just don't wear a suit that costs in the thousands of dollars because then the gossip chain and legalistic church goers will start complaining about wasting good money by constantly needing to buy new suits.
So you're saying there's nothing in the Bible that talks about official church membership and an official church organization.
If the building is the distracting influence, let it go. If the organizational structure has become so burdensome that it supplants the calling and care of the saints, then it is sinful to continue to operate in it to the detriment of the redeemed. Not enough people to do the "ministry work" you've chosen to do? Drop the excess. Not enough money to care for the people who come to see you because it's what they've been told they are supposed to do? First, you are dragging them into idolatry and secondly, that's a clear indication you are being wasteful with the resources entrusted to you. All of these are non-issues and a group of men paid handsomely by hundreds (thousands) of collective private budgets to continuously prove their own scholarship belly-aching about how tough things are seems self-serving and disingenuous. Here is where a loving call to repent for the sake of the gospel and the beloved of the Lord comes into play.
Amen
My pastor is not dealing with anything. Everything was pre-ordained by God for him to do what he doing. Just have to learn to deal with it. We don’t have choice we’re Calvinists. I remember when I stole $100 from a grocery store, when I got caught I remembered what Calvinism teaches, God made me do it, to His glory of course.
Yeah, so John 14:6, said, John 14:26, Immanuel Jesus Christ came in flesh and many missed he,
So will God the Holy Spirit be revived in flesh ?
?
Our pastor was manipulator and a liar. Solid Bible teacher tho... Knew how to put up a show and preach. He's leading the only reformed Bible Institute in our country with affiliation to TMAI. What a shame that he's a wolf.
Who are the other 3 men of God from the left to right, please. Great information.
There in the film, it indicates the name underneath them when they speak, you can then Google about who they are
The Guy sitting right across from Todd is Shane Koehler. He is the pastor at the church I go to called Faith Community Church.
Repentance is not found in that verse. It says all that were ordained, or appointed to eternal life, BELIEVED. The Repentance is turning from not knowing, or unbelief, to believing in Jesus as God our savior.
Calvin, is that you?
To actually think one has the power to repent ( from sin) is the same flaw as Pentecostals believing in self effort to keep and maintain salvation. Either way, you are adding human effort to salvation, and that thinking is seriously flawed.
@@MikeMatkin-of9iy To actually think that one, being a flawed human being, can actually NOT sin? Now that is a leap of faith calvin. How are the tulips?
@@Jason-vn5kz actually, I'm not what would be defined as a Calvenist. But your statement is in agreement with what I said.
@@Jason-vn5kzno Calvinist believes a person can ever be sinless this side of heaven
Sin for men to wear shorts mowing the lawn????? Give me a break!!!!! Show me scripture, not crazy opinions….
✝️👑
Let go of what is unnecessary, stop idolizing things not meant for us, and take Jesus at His word - I promise the plates of many capital P "Pastors" will clear right up. Relinquish the self-idolatry of "the authority of the local church" and the existence of "the church today" in general and you'll be fine. Stop confusing what the apostles were given to do with your responsibility as a stewarding shepherd. All of these "burdens" are self-inflicted and the troubles that come from them are corrections and natural consequences of setting your eyes on things below. Seriously, you guys have time for this?
I can't stand seeing pastors, bishops, or first ladies in jeans, especially ripped jeans. I am not saying they need to wear a $1000 outfit. However, jeans just are not appropriate. Pastors do a video recording never there on Sundays lost my interest.
Is it really a hill to die on?
I am much more concerned with what is being preached rather than if someone is wearing jeans or khakis.
It’s a culture change, getting more casual. I wonder if early churchgoers were upset people started wearing pants instead of robes. 🙃
None of you use discernment.
?
@@alexkelley385 They said they do criminal background checks. So I said none of them use (spiritual) discernment. They have no idea.
Hmmmm.....Let me get this straight....these men are using lots of vocabulary about God, Church, Church, Church, and let's not forget Pastor, Pastors, Pastors etc. AND then the running and implementing of "a church" is the main and ever so prominent focus in these men's lives. Did you listen to yourselves? Never once was the name of JESUS mentioned. Wasn't the disciples lives focused on Jesus? Isn't the "Church" to be concentrated on JESUS? Aren't we as his servants, not to be so concentrated on the "mechanics " of running the church that we forget that JESUS will guide and direct every decision in HIS church.
Not being raised in a Christian home nor a church, i am ever so thankful that my Lord JESUS called me at the age of 25 and placed me "IN HIM" in my room at home. I know and concentrate on HIM and his words in the Bible, not the worries of an organization that is so concentrated on itself that you lose sight of WHO YOU SERVE!! We go to church and are involved and serve, but we always sit in the back with the other sinners, because without HIM we are just that. Also, our pastor always makes fun of the ones who sit in the back. When we were New Christians we went to a little small church in the country and the Pastor there always said, the Pulpit is where the most UNWORTHY one stands, the front seats are for the HYPOCRITES, the middle section is for the LUKEWARM, the back seats are for the SINNERS, and the balcony is for the BACK SLIDERS. Just sit where you are most comfortable.
Blah blah blah.
We wouldn't have a pastor problem if prophets were welcome in the church
Why is wearing shorts by a pastor an issue?!!
If a pastor is percieved to be "unpastorly" he is hampered in his work.
Wearing shorts is nothing. Wearing shorts where doing so will have others percieve you as weak or inappropriatly casual is unwise.
So to say: at its root its a practical issue
Exactly- it’s image based. Pastors can foster this too by preaching from a position of authority, or them being the “hero” in their message
@@LockeTheAuthentic I hear what you’re saying and would agree with conduct listed in the Bible for how a pastor should be… but apart from pastoral criteria Biblically, the rest appears to be supporting what people “need” to believe about pastors, not what they actually are.
Because it can cause those who are of weak Conscience, say, someone who grew up in a Hyper-Legalistic Cult that Forbids Shorts (they do exist) but has now become saved by the Grace of God in God giving them Faith in Christ alone for their Eternal Salvation, and thus, due to that Upbringing, Esteems shorts as Sinful, to Stumble! Saint Paul the Apostle tells us to do nothing that can cause the weaker brother to Stumble! so they are in Defiance of Scripture in making the weaker brother Stumble!
@@simeonyves5940I know you’re just using this example to make a point, but if they were freed from a cult and truly saved, why would they hold onto validating some cult practices?
I see this as only image management, not indicated in the Bible. The verse you referenced was not based on this particular discussion.
And slowly become a cult.
Tough issues? I didn't hear anything tough. If any of you men sitting at that table think those issues are tough you should try working and living in the real world and not in your little christianese clubs you've created for yourselves.
This is a cult. 😢
What is (?)
so your going to an outside source to check backgrounds
let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter. fear God and keep his commandments: for this is the WHOLE DUTY of man
for God shall bring every work into judgement, with every SECRET thing, whether it be good or whether it be evil
going to secular authority over church matters makes absolutely NO SENSE AT ALL
Uhm,
I think it a wise and prudent thing for a church
To ensure members and folks potentially having authority over children
Are not felons
Or pedophiles
Or what’er a grievous thing