Just remember that current EROI on renewables is figuring in that they are mined, produced and shipped and installed with fossil fuel powered machines (as are those machines). For example the most affordable solar panels are produced with coal powered electricity. Take away these fossil fuels and the EROI of most renewables drops considerably.
The truth is just that you need to use fossil fuels to create the "renewable" energy in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge China is a major producer of solar panels, so to create them you are relying upon coal-powered Chinese manufacturing, and then of course shipping it overseas uses oil. Not really "emissions free" ultimately..
@@praiseoffolly4235 Not true - if you use solar and electric trolley-trucks all rigged up like trams to mine and refine the ores for the next generation of renewables the energy invested is far more efficient which means less. That means the energy returned is even higher than what is invested. That's why the renewable energy mantra is electrify everything - because running an electric motor is vastly more efficient than burning oil in an ICE car and losing all that energy to heat. Not that I love cars - Kunstler is right on New Urbanism. But as far as I can tell, he's wrong on renewables. I mean, if I get solar + and EV it's like having an oil refinery on my roof. This prevents oil loss shipping it around the world and driving it up highways to sit in petrol stations. Australia has a Janus electric truck system that charges 10 trucks from the warehouse roof! Efficiency. It's a thing.
@@eclipsenow5431 Unfortunately there is no scientific studies supporting your statement. No scientific have been able to prove what your are saying. We can then assume that it is not sustainable to create and maintain renewable with renewable.
About 75 (source: COMPARISON OF THE PERFORMANCE, ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES OF NUCLEAR POWER GENERATION mCOMPARED TO OTHER CLEAN SOURCES OF ELECTRICITY Jônatas F. C. da Mata, Amir Z. Mesquita and Rieder O. Neto). Sometimes the value 20 can be found, but this is when using outdated uranium enrichment technology (gas diffusion enrichment), which is extremely energy intensive. Currently, enrichment using gas centrifuges is used in Russia and France, which consume 30 times less energy, and it is here that ERoEI increases significantly.
Great video but could of added a part to show how modern society is dependant on an EROI level of around 8-1 and what will happen if it drops below this.
Excellent video overall, thank you. Though I do not think that there is actually a solution to our civilization's energy woes. We have yet to find anything that can replace oil. Things like renewables only generate electricity, but most energy consumed in the world is refined petroleum products used for transportation purposes. (Source: World Final Energy) As other comments have noted, to create the energy infrastructure required for renewables, including battery storage, this most likely severely diminishes the actual EROI of renewables, most likely making them not really that worth it ultimately. Nevermind other issues like the fact that solar panels and wind turbines are not reliable generators of electricity. Additionally, I do not think that EVs are practical ultimately, and certainly it will not be possible to replace every diesel & gasoline powered motor vehicle with an electric one. Though the perspective of net energy is vital to even begin to think about actually solving our civilization's energy problem, so that is why I liked this video even though it isn't perfect.
Crypto is just another currency scam. No value added but it still gives the creators (counterfeiters) buying power. It is simply multiple stage robbery.
Batteries definitely lower the EROI a bunch. There are other advantages if geothermal storage is in the loop so EROIs with that included can actually go up. But electricity and chemical battery storage means EROI goes down. There are no great solutions here but fossil fuels are not a long term option.
@@rhysdavis2971 All that nuclear material you can scale up to replace everything else...lol. Gonna mine that with your nuclear powered front end loaders too? Lmao
@@rhysdavis2971 Nuclear is an interesting solution but just costs too much money to implement. Perhaps something like SMRs can change things, but so far they haven't been practically used yet to my knowledge.
Note that for current civilisation of the western world, EROEI needs to be ~12:1. The UK is already down to 6:1. Farming is 5:1 Hunter-gathering is 2:1 #collapse
so go go nuklear ? fuck propaganda , if you are against nuklear you are against sanity . Best EROI today , and safest technology in deaths per GW produced including all disasters .
Just remember that current EROI on renewables is figuring in that they are mined, produced and shipped and installed with fossil fuel powered machines (as are those machines). For example the most affordable solar panels are produced with coal powered electricity. Take away these fossil fuels and the EROI of most renewables drops considerably.
Bingo. Derrick Jensen and James Howard Kunstler say the same as well.
The truth is just that you need to use fossil fuels to create the "renewable" energy in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge China is a major producer of solar panels, so to create them you are relying upon coal-powered Chinese manufacturing, and then of course shipping it overseas uses oil. Not really "emissions free" ultimately..
@@praiseoffolly4235 Not true - if you use solar and electric trolley-trucks all rigged up like trams to mine and refine the ores for the next generation of renewables the energy invested is far more efficient which means less. That means the energy returned is even higher than what is invested. That's why the renewable energy mantra is electrify everything - because running an electric motor is vastly more efficient than burning oil in an ICE car and losing all that energy to heat. Not that I love cars - Kunstler is right on New Urbanism. But as far as I can tell, he's wrong on renewables. I mean, if I get solar + and EV it's like having an oil refinery on my roof. This prevents oil loss shipping it around the world and driving it up highways to sit in petrol stations. Australia has a Janus electric truck system that charges 10 trucks from the warehouse roof! Efficiency. It's a thing.
@@eclipsenow5431 Unfortunately there is no scientific studies supporting your statement. No scientific have been able to prove what your are saying. We can then assume that it is not sustainable to create and maintain renewable with renewable.
what is the EROI on nuclear power (now and in the future)?
About 75 (source: COMPARISON OF THE PERFORMANCE, ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES OF NUCLEAR POWER GENERATION mCOMPARED TO OTHER CLEAN SOURCES OF ELECTRICITY Jônatas F. C. da Mata, Amir Z. Mesquita and Rieder O. Neto). Sometimes the value 20 can be found, but this is when using outdated uranium enrichment technology (gas diffusion enrichment), which is extremely energy intensive. Currently, enrichment using gas centrifuges is used in Russia and France, which consume 30 times less energy, and it is here that ERoEI increases significantly.
Great video but could of added a part to show how modern society is dependant on an EROI level of around 8-1 and what will happen if it drops below this.
Excellent video overall, thank you.
Though I do not think that there is actually a solution to our civilization's energy woes. We have yet to find anything that can replace oil. Things like renewables only generate electricity, but most energy consumed in the world is refined petroleum products used for transportation purposes. (Source: World Final Energy)
As other comments have noted, to create the energy infrastructure required for renewables, including battery storage, this most likely severely diminishes the actual EROI of renewables, most likely making them not really that worth it ultimately. Nevermind other issues like the fact that solar panels and wind turbines are not reliable generators of electricity. Additionally, I do not think that EVs are practical ultimately, and certainly it will not be possible to replace every diesel & gasoline powered motor vehicle with an electric one.
Though the perspective of net energy is vital to even begin to think about actually solving our civilization's energy problem, so that is why I liked this video even though it isn't perfect.
chotto eroi desu.
Seriously, though. You gotta tell all this to cryptominers, who are killing our future, us.
Crypto is just another currency scam. No value added but it still gives the creators (counterfeiters) buying power. It is simply multiple stage robbery.
Citations for your figures and data would be great - I'm curious as to where these numbers came from.
You clowns forgot to add the BATTERIES. Go ahead and recalculate. We'll wait. EROI of renewables with storage is 3.
Batteries definitely lower the EROI a bunch. There are other advantages if geothermal storage is in the loop so EROIs with that included can actually go up. But electricity and chemical battery storage means EROI goes down. There are no great solutions here but fossil fuels are not a long term option.
@@johnm2879 umm - nuclear EROI over 50x
@@rhysdavis2971 All that nuclear material you can scale up to replace everything else...lol. Gonna mine that with your nuclear powered front end loaders too? Lmao
@@rhysdavis2971 Nuclear is an interesting solution but just costs too much money to implement. Perhaps something like SMRs can change things, but so far they haven't been practically used yet to my knowledge.
@@skeetorkiftwon This is a silly comment but the point is solid. Nuclear doesn't replace oil.
This is why we are migrating to Nuclear power.
Note that for current civilisation of the western world, EROEI needs to be ~12:1.
The UK is already down to 6:1.
Farming is 5:1
Hunter-gathering is 2:1
#collapse
I would say you forgot nuclear, but let's be honest..
No mention of nuclear - you mention solar/wind EROI and don’t mention nuclear.
Unserious rhetoric for unserious consumers.
This is biased against the most obvious solution: nuclear.
so go go nuklear ? fuck propaganda , if you are against nuklear you are against sanity . Best EROI today , and safest technology in deaths per GW produced including all disasters .
I think that too. The question that I do not see is why EROI should rise or drop during time. Something is not transparent here.