Martin Jacques and Shashi Tharoor discuss China and India
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 4 май 2016
- As part of the Credit Suisse Global Megatrends Conference. 21st April 2016, Singapore. Moderated by Martin Soong (CNBC Asia).
By 2030, China and India’s economies are forecast to collectively be twice as large as that of the United States. The discussion explored which of the two powers will emerge as the larger economy in the next decade. From their types of government to their economic policies, however, each country is distinctly different. In a pluralist, multipolar world, is a “China versus India” debate still relevant? If so, who will emerge economically stronger and why? Is it policy, politics, resources, or demographics that provide an advantage to one over the other?
If u ask Chinese people whether China is better than US now, they will reply u "not now, but maybe another decade".
But if u ask Indian people whether India is better than China now, they will reply u "definitely yes"
See?.
very correct！😂
I think it’s your improper understanding of English language
@@alokmishra2207 This is what we called a typical Indian. Biggest English spoken country and biggest democracy country. Proud of something not belongs to you. Just too proud. lol
Of course, india know they are better than china. Indian believed America is indian now. Just look at silicon valley .
@@samchiew4370
Indians are still using the 19th century British built railroad system
That's why they are so proud of their democracy
And railways determine democracy?
@@naiyayika According to India
Nobody could win argument with Indians.
let Indians *talk* , let them talk.
zs Xie Lol 😂Let them 💨
我只想说，你永远叫不醒一个装睡的人。每次看到的都是一群西方人看似带着探讨问题的方式来挖苦中国的时候，中国人还是很耐心的去回答他们的问题，但是只要答案不是西方人想要的，他们就会以一种高人一等的姿态来质问你更多的问题，他们从来不会意识到自己的问题。我们中国人只管做好自己就好，时间会证明谁更好。他们西方人喜欢傲慢和活在自己的世界里，就让他们去吧，他们过得好不好和我们有什么关系。中国人真的是咸吃萝卜淡操心。
是的，兄弟，我不知道将来会发生什么，但我真的希望任何亚洲国家都能完全超越并摧毁我们
Dr. Martin’s speech (responses) is very impressive and mostly base on facts. He has a good vision and understanding the Chinese government and culture well. Awesome!!
This man is genius, i mean martin jacques, watching this video in 2019 he is absolutely rite
Let Indians continue to proud of their democracy as long as they are happy with the life they are leading. It doesn't bother anyone in the world.
I have this news for you, Dr Shashi Tharoor. India will never catch up with China if my personal experience this week is indicative of anything. I live in Malaysia where many people of both Chinese and Indian ancestry live. My wife hired an electrician of Indian ancestry recently to change all household lighting points in the house to LED lighting. He arrived with an Indian assistant and took a week to change all the points to LED lights. Recently, one of the lighting points failed to operate. Yesterday, my neighbour hired an electrician of Chinese ancestry to do the same transition to LED lighting. He came alone and completed his work in an hour and charged a fraction of what I had to pay. Talk about productivity differences!
That's quite the anecdotal evidence you're giving(provided you're even telling the truth).
Most of the CEO's & top-level Managers in Malaysia are of Indian. Same is the case with US/UK. That's a much more telling statistic.
You are wrong on most CEOs in Malaysia being Indians. Most are Chinese. A vast majority of entrepreneurs in Malaysia are actually Chinese in spite of a very long and sustained effort by the Malay government to promote Malays' economic ascendency. Rest assured that that little anecdote is true. Say, it shocked me too!
So based on one experience you have derived sweeping conclusions about billions of people in both China and India? Wow...
Ms Sandhu it’s very typical of the Chinese mentality
@@salieris The problem is that the Chinese have this racist, condescending attitude towards Indians. It's a shame because the Chinese themselves face racial prejudice in Western countries (including other non-Caucasian people). You would think that someone who is at the receiving end of racism will have a better sense so as to not be racist to others. But way too many people lack this sense. And this goes also for my fellow Indians who hold racist attitudes against black people or in general against communities who are darker skinned than themselves.
When will we come out of this mentality where we value others simply due their race, nationality, religion, skin-color, gender, economic-class, family background.. and so on.. you know attributes people have no control over.... attributes people don't work for but get simply due to genetic lottery?
This video proves to us talking king vs practical king. Or mouth vs hand; Or noise vs action; Or India vs China; Or dreaming vs doing.
como gain And also democracy vs Communism
WE CARE EVERYTHING NOT ONLY OR A FEW SPECIAL THING
We will see about that...🤘😑
Rizwan Ullah 🤘😑😑🤘
Rizwan Ullah Chutiye
Big fan of Martin Jacques.
A man who has visionbility larger than universe
Clearly, the host is not acting in an impartial and fair manner.
He often interrupted the speech made by Martin.
On many occasion, he try to impose his view on Martin by dismissing his points. - for instance, he raised Tibet and Xinjiang,
He probed Martin to prove it that innovation does exist in China.
on the other hand,
He allow Shashi to speak freely on subject matter without much interruption.
He seem to agree with everything he said.
He does not probed Shashi to give example or prove it.
He does not raise the Kashmir issue or violence happen in India.
I don't like him either. But for a matter of fact, he is merely helping the weak side. From that point of view, I forgive him.
bbcnnstupimedia.. I can't agree more than what you said the HOST was trying to create the divide and rule strategy to dis-harmonise and weaken India-China relations. The fact is India's national development will take a totally different and slower development pace as compared to China due to her more limited access and unplanned economy.
Martin Soong, that guy lives in Asia, Singapore for a long time but still carries his pretentious fake American accent. Raising those sensitive issues about China but not India just reveal his pro-Western agenda.
bbcnnstupimedia , he be cool , Chinease were and are good copycats.You name anything from culture to innovation,martial art,maths,language to buddhism,medicines to art,administration ti phylisophy,kites or chess, everything is borrowed from India by han pandits by frequent visiting to India in remote past.
India borrowed cannons and gun powder and paper from China as well, your point was??
On one hand the Indian guy praises China. He mentions lifting 700,000,000 people out of poverty, but then he dismisses it instantly after and makes up excuses on why Indians system is still better because democracy. He mentions how China's government had 0 km of highway and then 150,000 km few years later and how impressive it is, then immediately dismisses it again and says that its only because China kicked people out of their houses and India has democracy so it's better still.
India has democracy so it doesn't need high literacy rate, toilets or a competent and un-corrupt government.
Basically his argument is democracy is better than meritocracy. Democracy in the hands of low literacy rate and divided country with caste system and where half the country of women is not equal to the men.. What could go wrong?
Martin as always, wins the debate if we can even call it one since to me it wasn't even close and the Indian guy wasn't even trying to win since China > India in pretty much all metrics so how can anyone who has any intellectual honesty even try to say Indian system or government has done better than China's.
If Indians system is better then that just means that Indians govs have been so bad(and/or China's is so good) that even with the supposed superior system, they still got out classed basically 4 to 1 by China's if we look at their economies.
As Eric Li said: “liberal democracy “ has become just a religion and nobody cares if it works, how it works and if its able to deliver solutions in due time.
listen bro whole developed world is democratic and 99% communist countries collapse bcz of civil unrest
because democracy is good when society is going from a bad phase people can change leaders and stop them from becoming gods
in communism when society goes through a rough phase they can not change and Tiananmen Square
happens
soviet Russia happens to say the same thing Empire for Millenium see when bad time comes what happened
Shashi well said "democracy has a safety valve in CCP's china we do not know if there is"
yes same government oppressing people and killing them in masses if u r Chinese I do not have to explain you each instances
and when America opens its door china made it's fortune and all the bad things start to hide well after '90s
now door's are closing time will tell
about India and china, India is very complex and you can not imagine how diverse is India even Buddhism came out of India to china
Indian story start is not as fast as china but India is catching up
and each and every word is true Shashi said
CCP can pay people like Martin with favors and various economical benefits but
I know china is a closed society and you growing in a closed society can not hear criticism but America being no 1 you can reason
with educated people but Chinese educated or not can not face criticism bcz CCP never let them they do not know
how to speak against government if your husband dies bcz of corona virus
they do not know how to speak if a news paper owner is arrested for being truthfull
No doubt china is earning money but at what cost and what happen when their model fails
which definitely will happen bcz of law of average then where people will go and what change they can do
Well... at least I can say that I hate the govt if want to on public platforms and not face any legal consequences. 😂
BTW Chinese are persecuting Muslims and India hosts Muslim minority (just like many others minorities from all over the world)and they are living a happy and cultural life. I myself believe that a country needs to run on principles and FYI India's GDP had one the highest growth rates in the world (pre covid-19). We believe it's better to show growth instead of blabbering about ancestral money.
Aniket Tyagi We should ask a Muslim what is his living in a fanatic Hindu country. Do you think that what you are doing in Cashmere is right? And what about masacres of Muslims in India?
@@navegantezen5983 Bro name the massacare and I'll let you know how wrong you are. As for Kashmir I have friends there and they'll tell you how radicalised the whole place is and it is necessary for long term peace. And Muslims in India enjoy various privileged rights.
Very interesting contribution
OMG, you are here, you are awesome!
You had very logical arguments, well done.
Bro you clearly won debate !
India is the number one super power..... in curry
You know China very well and been very fair. Great on you!
If all Indians are just like Sashi, India will never grow like China, because of his such micro-view on the world.
When China is doing Artificial Intelligence based industrialization, India is still stucked at manual industrialization. That shows the difference.
And India has serious poverty levels and poor hygiene.
They do yoga..lmfao! Hurray for India's soft power!
@@raymondwong3739 n Chinese spreading coronavirus in whole world making millions of people loosing their life, hurray for their soft power, whereas india known as the pharmacy of the world developing vaccines n providing whole world, n saving lives, so hurray for india's soft power.
@@robertpeston6692 poor sanitisation is in China n not in india, all the media r paid media by CCP, n when any media shows the real truth they just ban the channel, india has 99.2%sanitisation n access to toilets, just check the google, think u r still living decades back. N ur so called sanitised country deadly virus originated frm there.
@@robertpeston6692 Fast lowering
The Indian author is really falling in love with his prejudice and ignorance.
ignorant is you brother martin is ccp paid journalist whatelse would you expect him to say with ccp anchor it is just a ccp propaganda video
sashi was there to show the world how some countries cannot take criticism on their own show from a guest how immature of you
@@bhartiyasena9189 傻逼阿三
@@bhartiyasena9189 clobbered LoL
Shahi always comes across as pompous. For all his talks on how evil British Empire was, he speaks English better than his native language, in fact his Hindi is pretty bad. Also he raises all the problems China is facing including Xingjang but forgets about the Kashmir issue. So convenient.
@@f1aziz " in fact his Hindi is pretty bad." - His native language isn't Hindi. Why is it a surprise that he doesn't speak it well?
"For all his talks on how evil British Empire was, he speaks English better than his native language" - He actually in very fluent in his native language. And English isn't a language. It's a productivity tool which is exactly why Chinese, for all their hate for the west, are teaching it to their Children by paying native English speakers (while teaching Mandarin to the Pakistanis).
" he raises all the problems China is facing including Xingjang but forgets about the Kashmir issue." - As opposed to the Pakistanis who only remember the Kashmir issue and conveniently forget Xinjiang ? .. :-)
talk about Chinese cultural influence, really? no one needs to purposely project it, it is so rich everyone knows already, I'm in Canada, in recent years I see more and more believers of Chinese medicine, Taichi, Buddhism, tea culture, Chinese food, which is a large part of Chinese culture, etc. etc.
Kung Fu moves was big in the west before Bollywood and more influential.
Essentially agree with you but Buddhism originated in India.
Maggie S yeah but it survived in China I guess
@@Daisylovemj it originated in Nepal.
@@user-mn8cx4kp5y no it didn't 😂😂
Martini is the only speaker in this video i can bring myself to listen.
Why are people comparing China with India? Chinese people ‘do’, Indian people say I’ll think about it and will tell you next week if I can do it or not.
China is a doer. India is a talker. Always been. People Just need to ask other asians people. Who is the lazy type , who is the diligent type.
The way Shashi's talking looks like India is a much advanced and developed country. Maybe he think India should be a teacher of China. I couldn't admire more of Indian's confident.
Haha right
it would have been a much better debate if there was an American instead of a ccp paid journalist to say about being a superior country than china
I am very much appreciating professor Martin ‘s attitude: objective and rational
No Chinese soft power are you kidding me. China's influence from history to culture to philosophy has spread to the rest of Asia before the modern western world ever took shape. They are also starting to spread to the west recently.
not even mentioning enlightenment was inspired by china, early great thinkers like Voltaire were complete chinese fanboy.
@@HFrevive that's self glorification at its best.
Cultural revolution remember?
@@naiyayika ignorance makes you proud. plenty of evidence..
In various works of his, Voltaire introduced China as an ideal country. In Letters on the English, he described China as “the wisest and best governed country in the world” (50), and in Philosophical Dictionary, he described it as “the most extended and best governed kingdom of the world” (108).
an ancient polity, civilization having existed for more than two thousand years and now emerging as the preeminent country of the 21st century, China simply has more factors favoring her rise. China's Communist Party has drawn on this vast historical and cultural richness to maintain cohesion and unity onto the path of resurgence. Nothing can stop China. Not military alliances of an American pivot to Asia.
Also, wtf, Shuri knows nothing.
"Since 2013, China has been the largest robotics market - 36% of total demand while Japan is second with 12%. And so supplies 3x more robots to the world than Japan, who is second.
Dare I admit as an American, I’m happy to see China balance American power? Maybe then we’ll have less of these ruinous wars and focus on the needs of our own country.
Honestly speaking, after visiting both China and India, i d rather live in China rather than India
Democracy sounds well, but that word means many different things in every single part of the world, and in many cases does not mean stability, or even freedom. so i am not afraid of China because they deserve welfare as all the people in this world. and the USA sold its American way of life which has good and bad things. i Read history of China to understand and believe me, there is nothing to be afraid about.
here comes 50 cent in WeChat wallet
Pakistan is a democracy too. Would Sashi want to live there?
@@therover65 @therover65 Pakistan is not a democracy in the history of Pakistan a prime minister never took a full five-year term which is supposed to be most power full post in Pakistan
Pakistan is a banana republic where it is always controlled by its corrupt military which always do something to be thrown a prime minister a coup, hangs him, makes corruption charges in spite biggest corruption is done pak army, send them in exile and kill them with bombs and army is totally dependent on terrorist export
So, pak is a sham democracy where jungle raj is happening so at least so not call it a democracy it is a military regime
The truth of democracy and totalitarianism are like this: All the developed countries, are democratic, but few of them were democratic in the first place, when they were climbing to power, e.g., Japan, Britain, German, Spain, even France.
Just like a wealthy kid, and a poor kid.
The wealthy kid has many choises, he can play tenis, motor, skiing, horsing, his parents have quite open ideas, that allow him to persuit his own interests, anyway when he grow up, he can take over the family company.
However the poor kid, on the other hand, has no choice than working hard, get into good university and finding a good job.If not, his life will be forever stuck in the mud of chaotic street lives, fighting, drugs, sex and rob.
Now, were you the parents of that poor kid, will you accept the recommendation of the wealthy parents, that you should let your kids be (by letting him be it means letting him go out on the streets and play, cause obviously you cannot afford him horsing or skiing), ranther than forcing him to study the books everyday in home?
Now China is like a poor kid forced to study at home, with less freedom, USA and Europe, are like rich kids with atmost freedom, criticising on China for not going out on the street, and India is like a poor kid but with the same level of freedom like USA.
If you think a poor person can succed by doing just whatever he wants, then you are being too naivee, as it is for a poor country.
@@marcoswang5034 @Marcos Wang hello kid these things are just you are saying maybe you heard in your debates but the reality is many things are the factor let's see
China is communist like a few other countries example USSR, North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam
Vietnam is an exception
China is poor until the free world open their doors for china from that on china pick up
but china till now did not let others in
now when the world is resisting that attitude let's see how ccp will show growth with its system while other examples of communism USSR gone other ones are in very bad shape
while another hand America is from the starting days is a democracy even when they are a petty colony Europe is the creator of democracy thousands ago
even japan was a total ruin after the world 2 all big cities were ruined population was reduced
so your theory is a wrong kid
while about India
India and China are very similar full of history old civilizations great dynasties art culture and rich in history this is the reason China and India are big populations from the start but the difference is India is more diverse we look different from one state to another we have different food different language culture out of top 7 four religions started in India even Buddhism which followed widely by Chinese
that diversity is the power of India
where India has done well in the last 2 decades but not as well as china you are right but no one can tell who will do well in the next two decades
Indians are very soft in nature generally that is why even our rise a country was nonviolent with Mahatma Gandhi
not like CCP's rise in china
even when we see in foreign countries Indians go with nothing only with their talent they earn more money than locals in other countries
and do high skill mind jobs and close to nothing crime rate's this is Indian society
So the real reason is when the world is open to you
you will grow or if the world is not open to you will fall
no matter what you think
when the world is open to you even dictatorship is the best system to you
or if the world is not open to you even the freest democracy can suffocate you
as an Indian everything is looking upside ride from where I am
I am not sure for some other people
1.World’s most prestigious universities 2016, the annual times higher education world university rankings just released few days ago , mainland china has 5universities on that list, and hongkong have3, yet india don`t have single one in the top100 2.China has ranked first in the number of patent applications lodged surpassing the US and Japan from 2013. The number of chinese patent higher than the combined total from the US and Japan, where is india, not in the top 100 list~~3.Acording to Web Of Science(WOS), from 2004 to 2014, the number of china`s SCI papers published is 1.3698 million , ranked second in the world, the SIC papers were cited 10.3701 million times, ranks fourth in the world, where is india, I don`t know. 4.In PISA test, china is ranking NO.1, when india is ranking last one among near 200 countries. 5. on the list of The FORBES globle500,2015, there are 106 china`s companise , just behind usa ,ranking NO.2, yet india only have 7 companies on that list. These are just some of simple reasons why china has much more stronger soft power than india, and there are other countless reasons I did`t mention~~
Not to offend you, the rosy picture about Chinese education system can be equally put to negative light as the most number of paper retractions happen from China (vide Science 2015). If you feel proud of a booming industry which publishes papers with no scientific authenticity,then I have nothing to say. India's undergraduate education is extremely sound and most of the Indian Institute of Technologies(IITs) are widely known in elite US institutions. I am extremely happy with China's rise as a superpower(it has to be considering China and India were the two largest economies till late 1700s) but the Chinese soft power is still nascent. The best bet you have is food, but still it has to go a long way before it can claim the prize in softpower.
I don't think you can argue with the PISA rankings...
Avash Das The Qinghua University topped the US News and World Report Rankings in Engineering ahead of MIT for the past couple of years.
@@fooksengloke3625
That's mainly because of number of research. It doesn't say about quality. MIT still leads in innovation
Avash Das great India, long live India
soong, the korean moderator, is clearly unhappy with the facts that jacques is presenting
It’s so sad that the India guy couldn’t argue with actual hard facts but kept running his mouths with doll facts that doesn’t really contribute to anything
Maybe it is also good to listen to both sides.
when will CCP propoganda team understand nobody buy's this type of propoganda
chinese people maybe are not that smart but open-world can clearly see martin is paid by ccp and living on ccp bytes
when shashi just show what outside think about china no no we are not able to think about that we only consume propoganda
this is why china can pick pieces but never will join the masses of world
And Martin gave facts? Don't joke around.
@@naiyayika here is a video to cure your illness "prosperous China". maybe this one will do also "China in motion 2019". compare that with India.
Shashi is not explaining india,but criticising china by making lame points. This is the natural fault of indians. They don,t have their own good things to tell that,s why they always look at the little faults of others.
spot on
What Khurram you not Indian? If not that's even worse!
Learn english first, then u may understand...
I quite agree with him. That's the reason their party isn't in power anymore
It is totally meaningless to discuss about whether china will be dominant in how many years or whatsoever. It is also meaningless to discuss about the soft power of China. All the negative predictions about china by the western "experts" in the past thirty years or so have been proved wrong. If the west (and India of course) still keeps looking down upon china with a sense of superiority which comes from nowhere, the only harm of this bias would be applied to the west ( and India more). Many people have been laughing at china during the past 176 years. If we track the growing path of china throughout this time, it is obvious to know who is right and who is not. So why not just shut up and let time tell us who is the winner of the 21st century.
The host is quite shallow and didn't ask many valuable questions. Shashi is arrogant and pretty much of repeater of western press, no data back him up at all. Pretty poor debate in some way.
That korean host should refrain himself from interrupting their guest's line of thought so frequently.
Soong is a fifth generation Hawaiian Chinese, according to wikipedia, though I must say that he does look like Korean.
i just searched for the surname soong and saw it was chinese, so i mistaken 'song' (korean) by 'soong' (chinese) - Thanks for pointing that out :)
in fact song sounds like a Chinese surname '宋', but maybe soong's fore father didn't want to be a 'song', just like the movie dierctor ang lee, his name actually sounds like an lee in Chinese, and I'm sure he didn't want to be an 'Ann'.
ok, i got it! thanks again! It is a shame i don't know basic cantonese, because my grandfather was born in Guangdong (Canton) and emigrated to Brazil in the 1920's but he preferred to try to speak in portuguese instead of cantonese. His name is wong san lan (but could be wong san lun, because the officer who registered him could've mistakenly changed his name). Cheers!
Shame .... Shame .... Shame on Shashi Tharoor....not beliving in the Indians and make these bad comments
Hearing this talk again today, I think sashi grossly under estimated China's ability to change and adapt. Today's Chinese brands like DJI, Huawei, BYD, Alibaba, Hisense, TCL etc has put an end to his doubts about Chinese innovation and branding 😊. Martin on the other hand seems to read the Chinese rhythm of development a lot better 😊.
Watching this for the first time in 2019, I marveled at how far off target Shashi was because of his unrelenting India bias. Martin Jacques took home the trophies as far as I am concerned.
Bias goes two ways. The fact that you're saying Shashi is biased says that you yourself are biased.
@@naiyayika Wrong. Shashi being Indian enhanced his bias. Martin was much fairer in his comments. Although Shashi did make some backhanded comments against Indians such as Indians would have to be Chinese to get things done efficiently.
If we talk about democracy in India, the classes system in India is democracy and fair to the people of India?
This discussion was done in Apr 2016. Now in 2018, the 3 should meet up and discuss these issues again.
印度自我感觉实在太好，他们没有自己的独特思维，只是跟在西方的后面，只能看到西方人看到的关于中国的一些所谓的BIG PICTURE，他们以为中国的发展是那么简单粗暴，所以阿三一看到“你看，中国的劳动力在减少，印度的在增多”就想当然地以为印度可以像中国一样快速崛起，然后再利用后发优势变成宇宙第一，实在是“too young too simple, sometimes naive”
嘘嘘嘘，闷声发大财。
而且特别喜欢看购买力平价gdp（ppp）说他们有七万多亿美金世界第三什么什么的。
呵呵，其实很多去过中国的还是知道一些事情。只是长期被灌输优越感拉不下面子，然后使劲扯民主自由人权什么的。
Jasper Huang 国
蛤蛤蛤蛤😂
Martin, Shashi is literally not qualified to talk about China with you, he really doesn’t know too much about the development details of China, poor Shashi is just talking based on outdated newspapers...
Any friend of Negroponte is suspect
here come 50 cent in wechat wallet from ccp
He is deluded
@@ijchan88 I do not know about other people actually not much
But shashi is a ex UN official a member of parliament of india by winning election not a part of government bcz he lick the hand of a dictatorship like in communist countries a DR too and many more
And other people instead of talking about two books one CCP paid anchor and CCP paid person just pleasing CCP dictatorship this shows incompetence of CCP to face criticism
@@bhartiyasena9189 if something you do not know ,please better not to say it ,it is so easy .we should not live in the wold that assumed by ourselves ,tks !
Martial arts, Tai Chi, daoism, confucianism , Chinese medicine, acupuncture, Chinese language, Chinese food, Chinese philosophy (unique combination of Buddhism, confucianism, and daoism), the philosophy and wisdom stored in all the Chinese classics, like art of War, Mozi, poetry, historical records for 3000 years and so and so on are all soft power, it takes time to materialize ,but it is coming.
Tai Chi Green Tea only 3000 years haha
we created your religion Buddhism and martial art
Soft power is if you can get someone to like you enough to give you something you want without force. You are confusing soft power with cultural influence and spread; both are interrelated but different things. And on both, India and China are on par. India has incredible cultural influence in Pakistan, they love Indian culture and moives (because they are culturally Indian). Doesn't mean Indo-Pak nuclear tensions will end anytime soon.
Tai Chi Green Tea dear freind the roots of all what you are talking was India and not China.China as today expert in copying and multypling and bulleying.Chinese intelkectuals used to visit India for the purpose in past check out.
You have used 3 zeroes in your comment and that is given by india
And Indians are claiming everything Chinese just like they claim everything else...
The most fantastic thing for Chinese model is to encourage countries to do what they think is right for them. why we have to follow the fingers from US. i mean we learn ffom us and west but~ there are thousands of pathways of success, we should not just focus on what US did
democracy is nothing compare to what 《Zuo Zhuan》 mentioned "people-oriented" idea. as long as the system promotes the officers who can make people-oriented policies, that's all we need~ on the other hand, it doesnt matter Trump or Hillary wins, if both of them mess up the country anyway, what is the meaning of the one vote?....... maybe i am wrong but that's what i think right now.
OVER all~~ I love your objective arguments~~ i watched everything u uploaded~~~
+Jun HeIt is actually misleading to the term 'Chinese model' because there is no model as far as the Chinese see it. Politically China is basically practicing Bruce Lee style of martial arts - Don't be trapped by any style, learn from all and take whatever is useful and abandon whatever that does not work for you. A system that works for other people may not work for you because every individual is different.
ohhoooooo do not look outside look inside how CCP treat people like cattle
not of their free will live die repeat like rabbit
economy is hiding all wrongs what will happen if economy is not doing well
@Davin S so answer from my side i covered all things go do your factory work
4 years on. China is still growing, which isn't the focus, which is for the people to have a good life, eliminate poverty, ... Natural side effect is growth.
And the question about the growing Chinese oversea students, it's true that the number is growing and the motivation varies. But I can tell you that most of them go back for building a better China, a few stay overseas but the tie with our motherland never disappears. In my opinion, a true strong civilisation is always open to the world, encouraging the exchange, understanding different culture, for a better motherland and the world. Unlike the yankees saying U.S is the best place to be, coz the day you stop evolving, is the day you start dying.
@youcometome9 Because those media are not controlled by China.
shashi's data and evidence comes from " in my mind"
Tianmen, Xinjiang and Tibet and you still think India respects China?
Thank you Martin and Shashi for the interesting discussion on India-China. To do a comparision to promote inter-relationship is more conducive than to argue over differences that divides. India-China are both great nations with rich historical civilizations
which deserve deep respect. There are deep spiritual and cultural connections between them which transcends race and politic and continues to grow into the presence. The everlasting wise words of great masters of these two cultures synchronize in prefect harmony, torching the path for humanity to follow. How nice to see 'Patanjali Yoga, Buddhism and Confucius' showing the Western world our Asian values. Let not the politic defiles the relations of these two Nations. I don't see some 'rapists' represent India nor rude chinese tourists to China.
However, there is unfortunately a little 'stain' that still lingers in the mind of most Indians, including overseas which saddens me greatly. That stain is 'National Humiliation" of the 1962 war with China over the border claims. This war was a result of historical blunders left over by the colonial British Raj. Even British historians acknowledge the flaws or high handed approach of the British rulers. In 2008, the UK Foreign Office released a bold historic statement which discarded the Simla Agreement which would also include the infamous McMahon lines as an Anachronism and a colonial legacy, quote:- " .....our position is unusual for one reason of history that has been imported into the present:- anachronism of our formal position on whether Tibet is part of China and whether in fact we harbour continued designs to break up of China. We do not."
" Our ability to get the points across has sometimes been clouded by the position the UK took at the start of the 20th century on the status of Tibet, a status based on the geo-politics of the time. Our recognition of China 'special position' in Tibet developed from an outdated concept of sovereignty...."
Another worthy book to read is India's China War by Neville Maxwell who based his work on the report by Lieutenant-General T.B.Henderson Brooks and Brigadier Premindra Singh Bhagat which gives a factual overview of the war, how India (Nehru) repeatedly mishandled and unreasonable claims into the China's territories To cover the 'shame', the Report remains classified as top secret by the Indian government, deeming it too 'sensitive and not favourable to current operational value'. In 2014, Congress Captain Amarinda Singh said the Report should be made public by the Modi Administration. Well I pray he has the political will to do it.
All these historic facts are available in the archives. But it needs a brave 'enlightened' leader to correct the wrong so that the nation could move forward and erase the 'karmic stain' permanently. Just to let one branch of politic to cover up the truth only hurts the health of the nation. I raise this because this is the main sore that divides them before which they were like 'twin brothers' in the 1950s'. Let wisdom prevails and I'm sure the border issues can be settled amicably. After all China has settled almost all border issues with its neighbours, normally at her expense. I hope India will do the same for a win win settlement.
+Ali Saw Thanks for your comment. You are very well informed and I agree with everything you said. Let wisdom prevails!
I appreciate your objective discussion of the matter.
Shashi Tharoor knew very little about Chinese and he did not mention about the Hindu Caste system which the Chinese could not accept as justice
Gordon Sek well china follows biddhism and the guy responsible for spreading biddhism was indian and the religion had genesis from india and buddha was a indian prince. Hinduism may have flaws but its still the oldest religion that have existed the only problem is that it was interpreted incorrectly by the latter generations.
The caste system was imposed on the Indians as a way for the intruders to control them. They really succeed.
@@PAWANESH1 yea that is the problem...
@@PAWANESH1 Lord Buddha was born in lumbini Nepal. Buddhism was from Nepal. Got it
China has soft power among the third world.
China has soft attractions.
I can't say India has any more soft power or attraction.
Martin has been really trying hard to talk through these people. Pity that most don't listen to the wise.
I totally agree with Dr Shashi's comment starting at 17:40 about African countries saying they can't follow China's developmental model, believing that India presents a better model since India is just as messy as they are. Perhaps another better unspoken reason is that the Indian model teaches the leaders of these African countries how to enrich themselves through supposedly democratic politics while keeping the majority of their population impoverished and perpetually dependent upon them.
Martin debate with Shasha really reeeaaally lowers down his level.
He doesn't belong to this kind of low level debate if this indian man is his opponent
China and Singapore are both fascinating meritocracies. I wonder if the EU could ever be like that with some kind of pan-European identity. Even if we managed it we'd still only be ~700 million people, albeit highly advanced.
pan European is very difficult but a nice idea. People in China like my dad thinks only a unified Europe can have a bigger say in the world stage and balance the world power. But coming to Europe to vacation all the time we also realize the differences among countries which make it very unlikely.
you are more clever than 90% people in eur ,i can say ,tks
Shashi is right. India has huge potential. But because of its political system, the people and politicians never agree on anything so nothing gets done.
Hard working vs hard talking
Average IQ of 110 vs average IQ of 85
Eating with chopsticks vs eating with hand
Meat eating vs vegetable eating
I really don't think this kind of debating is necessary!
Find Indian to represent India for the debate but find a British white guy to represent China? Martin Jacques does a good job but really?
Martin, you won the debate.
You make those points based on facts.
Shashi make his points based on " goodness of his ideology" - democracy.
Shashi did try to dismiss your point by resorting to those usual fallacy - red herring argument.
It dont invalidate the point you had made .
For instance, he try to dismiss your point on Alibaba - Innovation in China by throwing those red herring argument
1. censorship
2. foreign company cant enter freely.
By the way, India have communist economy policies. (closed market)
bbcnnstupimedia I
You are very correct on your points. But he had already conceded the debate at a very early stage that comparing India and China is not something he is looking forward to. India does not have a closed market, this year with the implementation of the goods and services tax you should see market open even more and India gain a significant amount in ease of doing business. Martin had to win this debate since there is no comparison when it comes to comparing India and China. Where, China is way ahead of India in terms of development. But the trajectory of growth in India would significantly increase from now onwards. The only reason being Tharoor's Party (Congress liberals) no longer being in power.
Karan Shah
well said !
Democracy is a mature type of political system which possess check and balance in itself, that is why only the mature society can honestly run the system beneficially. I may say that all developing countries adopted democratic principles are the true causes of political social and economic corruptions and misuse of powers, on every continents that will serve the the Global Elite Empire Exploitations. Because Democracy in the Developing countries equals " divide and rule " them and make them as vassal states, that is why Democracy in the developing countries are the true cause of the poison and decay to their own society, even now in the developed world, the Empire itself feels great pains of their spoiled and corrupted democratic system in the US once the true democracy is not observed but is being corruptly misused.
It's simple. India is a so called democracy but dirt poor. China is communist but getting prosperous. Easy choice.
Hmmm....a British represent China while a Indian represent India in a debate?...Can't India find a foreign fan at all?
I can feel the mysterious indian confidence coming from absolute nowhere through the screen
When you have nothing that means you have nothing to lose
same confidence you have when watching America wait for India is coming
I have seen drug addicted people have the same kind of irrational confidence
@@navegantezen5983 i have seen chursy napak PM he is an addict and it is proven and wine the poo and chursy are close friends you can assume the high level of thoughts LOL
that confidence is from British India. India runs a democracy from Britain which used to be no.1 country for decades and the sole colonizer in Sub continent. India inherits the power and no.1 esteem from Britain. no country can doubt it.
It's amusing to review this footage in 2019.
Sashi Tharoor is making the same mistake as most western analysts. He's looking at China through the lenses offered him by western education and making wrong judgment. But time will tell who's right!
haha lol now watching this comment and have a hand on your mother on head and say china did not make coronavirus
Now look at how many countries are celebrating Chinese New Year??? Any non-Indian cares about their festival?
Lol
I think the moderator/host had clear anti-China bias, which disappointed the whole debate atmosphere, imo. However, I think Shashi and Jacques both made fair points and handled themselves well. I like how Shashi didn't like the concept of India vs China in the first place. Jacques has a good understanding of China and gave a lot of specific examples in his points. While I think Jacques is right about China's quickly growing influence etc., I think Shashi has a good point that the world will become more pluralistic. China is far ahead of India, but it's worth mentioning that by 2050, even though China will be the largest economy, India will have grown a ton as well and will be slightly larger than the American economy at that time, with the gap between China and India closing more and more over the following decade or two. I think the capability for a country to wield global hegemony will be gone because of this. It won't be just China, or just China vs India, but more like China vs India vs Europe vs Brazil vs America vs Indonesia vs Russia, and maybe more, like Africa or Japan. However, I don't believe it will be in the military sense, but rather economically and politically. Regardless of such competition, I think the world will still become closer together than previously.
so Rare to find a scholar who truly understands China without being a Chinese. in awe and all appreciative.
i am a india and i tell u there are much more sensible people in india than shashi tharoor..he is known for his talks i public..so he kind of show off everywhere..argument about bollywood is completely pointless..i accept chinese are doing far better than india especially economically..so jus request here everyone to not judge entire country based on a man who likes to talk even though he doesnt know the things..
Year 2019, april 1st. We can see that Mr Jacques was right :)
At last, thanks very much for such an interesting video and with many thoughtful words by these 3 gentlemen!
A lot has already changed in China since this conference. China is now leading the world in many areas of technological innovation - Huawei is on the verge of becoming the world's biggest maker of tier 1 smartphones, leading in 5G networks, biggest investor in R&D in green tech, DJi drone products, the largest high speed train network in the world, the largest road network in the world, the longest underground metro system in the world, Belt & Road, NIO luxury electric cars, integrated apps, Alibaba and Tencent continue to innovate, it is almost a cashless society, the list goes on....
Shashi Tharror said he was worrying the lack of advanced technologies such as AI... that would kill China's growth. Thanks to his kindness and advice at that time. China has been taking his advice seriously and moving on with a legion of robots. : )
Very good debate. Of course I agree with Martin more than I do with Sashi, however, he still made some legitimate points on the economic side. On the political side however, I don't believe Western style democracy is appropriate for India. I don't think it's appropriate for the West anymore let alone anywhere else. I think Sashi wants democracy to be something in India he can be proud of, even though there is a good argument to be made that it held the country's development back.
The Indian system is highly different from modern western idea of democracy; for the Indian guy to mention the caste system as 'democratic'? That' s actually something to democratise. All the competitive comparisons don't really hold water when you get down to the nitty gritty. Basically no one has any authority to decide what system any country entrenches itself - mainly because its part of their civilisation, or not. Everything's verifiable by their conduct.
India simply cannot be undemocratic, its too diverse. It can at worst be as undemocratic as Indonesia has been. China at best can be a democracy like Japan or Korea. A largely acquiescent homogeneous society with popular paternal state and government connected megacorporations. Truth is what do you mean by democracy?
Western style democracy? It's called liberal democracy, and there's nothing "western" about it. I don't think someone could say a strong rule of law and protection of minorities is a bad thing just because it became widely practiced in one region of the world first.
It's really interesting to see this in 2020, in the middle of the tech war and the pandemic.
Agreed so...
We don't take shashi seriously in India. He is just a western academic. However though, Indians are in awe of chinese.
And frankly, We don't wanna fight. But given enough provocation we may actually be very hostile.
The fact that India and China has such a long disputed border, should be sorted out.
Martin is the only Westerner who really understands China inside-out, I have seen so many half-bucket “experts” who misread China. China will develop from a manufacturing exporter to a high technology exporter. Much like what Japan is doing now. It will share or even take the place of Japan in automobile, electronic industries. We are talking about the slowing down of economy by GDP growth, but that figure was based on export dominated stage, we have not seen the China which will be in the technology dominated stage yet. Another note on the PR front, yes India has done much better in projecting a good image although they are doing much worse than China, because it’s democratic and China is Communist. Western media has enjoyed great success in demonizing the Chinese Gov.
The West is fighting a losing battle against China. As Clinton once said "It's the economy stupid". China easily wins just by the size and growth of it's economy. And yes China is now the world's largest exporter of automobiles, electronics and other products.
soong seems to be very uneasy whenMr. Martin Jacques defends China for a bit,to invite a guest to attack another should not be done by a host,it's clowish.
As a Chinese,I dare most of people in China never hold a ideal which compares China with India because we never feel threatened by India people. They are not as aggressive as American
yongheng Mei thats why u attacked us in 1961? And infiltrate Indian border everyday? Because we are peaceful u become bully.
indians think china invaded in 1962, to chinese they were just defending their land.. india a product of british legislation was carved out unilaterally on a map which nobody agrees, and indians taking their master's word literally follows it...
+Lima Charlie Iam an Indian guy from Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh that China claims as South Tibet and thus a part of China. And I assure you my forefathers willingly merged with the Union of India. China has no right to claim my land. We were never even parts of Tibet. Since ages Tibetans and my ancestors fought war against each other. Calling us as part of Tibet and thus Tibetan is a out of context joke. We Arunachalees are proud Indians and shall remain so. 1962 China attacked my land. My land was never a part of Tibet. China was the invader. It never was in a defensive position.
yongheng Mei thank you. With love from India.
yongheng Mei well its good that you don't feel threatened and don't compare china with india but that kind of ignorance is not affirmative because the way we are developing now, we will rise above china and then you will realize that may be you should have taken india more seriously. In 1800 century india's participation in worlds gdp was 27% and chiaa was 2nd. We were the richest country in the world. I brought these figures to show you the potential that india has. So its just matter of time as we will return back to the glory that we once had.
Every comment Shashi made always fell into the realm of ideology. Because there is no vote, so everything in China is bad. Alibaba is bad because there is speech control on the Internet, despite it created tens of millions of jobs.
Draw a line on the map that there is the railway? Come on, we are not the British. Either you are kidding or you are being stupid. The geographic difference of China is so big, without expertise and deep understanding you can not build anything like the high-speed railways that China has over 10,000 kilometers, or like the railway to Tibet Plateau, over 4500 meters sea levels.
No one can predict dynamic development of humans. So stop analysis and start enjoying. Don't go into India vs China fights. I m indian marrying Chinese girl from Shanghai and we only see good things in each other's nations. There is plenty to point fingers at anyone. Peace
can't agree more
天呢 这个老头知道得太多了， 这样不好，希望忽悠局能出来澄清一下.
Keep working India. You already achieved a lot！ India is already a superpower！long live India
What you written in Chinese
这个老头不能留。
你还很年轻，所以你的看法是一个经验不足的人。你的侮辱很明显。
@@somakchatterjee6429 Shitskin river pooper.
@Developer Developed
Poverty will be vanished from India in 2030. Only 3% will live in poverty in 2020.....
www.moneycontrol.com/news/india/india-may-get-rid-of-extreme-poverty-by-2030-under-3-to-remain-poor-by-2020-report-2639461.html
Martin Soong (CNBC Asia) ----- that says it all!
Indians are pretty confident which I admire as a Chinese. We are very humble people but i think Indians do have their own advantages,
This is not their confidence but sheer arrogance!
One thing to note...the Chinese are highly adaptable
China and India should never look at each other as rivals. Both counties fell victim to Western colonial powers and both countries are working to lift their people out of poverty. Shouldn't they be working together rather than competing against each other ?
I have a different take on the entire conversation. And my take is from a corner often forgotten and or neglected, It is from an African stand point. I admire Martin approach and humility about the subjects. China is the a better partner than any other in the world because they are not looking for Colonies, just business partners with mutual respects. China dug in their past to create a society based on their Culture and Traditions. Africa should dig in its more than 5000 Years past and built the Africa of today. Shashi is bit too colonized mentally, justifying and validating Indian fake "The World Largest Democracy", Cast system and other society failures and also be the colonizers that will be happy to replace Western Colonizers by claiming acquaintance with Africa. Shame, shame, shame the True historical facts about Africa not the lies portrayed by Western Education has nothing in common with today's India.
I wish, I was there at the live event to address my observations.
Thanks
Shashi Tharoor, little bit ignorant on Chinese culture but understandable he's Indian.
Vegre Muse
nothing compare with Indian culture
Vegre Muse even we created your religion Buddhism
Vegre Muse He is more knowledgeable than you, your father, and fourteen forefathers put together!!! ;P
Fuck you Somak Chatterjee, Budda born in Nepal and not india.
Buddha is from Nepal, Buddha saw India as a shithole in ancient times. Either he became enlightened or he go crazy. There is no Buddhism in India. Only supersition, the opposite of Buddhism. His skin was lighter than everyone else, don't sound Indian to me. India even today, are "united" by the British. Your pride, Taj Mahal is Muslim. Indians believe you had spaceships and rockets thousands of years ago. . Lying to yourselves is all you can do when you live in a shithole with no toilets. Reality is too hard to bare. If you asked which country is a shithole? Most people will think India. Shithole is synonymous with India.
Well , it seems like India will be as strong as China by this professor . Let 's see how things go ! Interesting
Martin likes China a lot. Part of the reason is he finds it a fascinating subject to think in a different way.
china has very strong unity no doubt while india doesnt...that is china plus points
Well Han's practically wiped off everybody else
If India was meant to be a superpower it would have been one a couple decades ago. I watch this in Dec 2018. China is further ahead of India in Tech, Infrastructure, GDP, etc... The only thing India can compete is population yet Indian population are more a liability than an advantage cuz education and medical system are lagging behind in India. And now India is getting deeper in USD debt trap while another round of financial downturn is coming. I am getting some popcorn ready ...
I don't think this is fair discussion between Shashi and Dr. Martin. As an ordinary person I have already read similar views from Shashi's argument. Nothing new and didn't inspire me unfortunately. Dr. Martin is a respectful person with deeply understanding as a western er, probably the best one.
It will not benifit anyone to argue who has won this debate. The idea to have this forum should be inspire people from all over the world how to improve their own life instead copying from either India or China. Unfortunately it was lead to other way around.
Edit:i take back my comments because it was posted when i finished half of the video. It became an attack and disaster from about 30 mins of the clip. Shashi and the host kept interrupting Dr. Martin and diverse the topic, shame on you. I have even more respect on Dr. Martin for keeping professional
Four years later, I am still waiting for India to do something.
RUclips manipulates the page, it is not possible to give my "I like IT" at all.
I like this video.
and ccp controls whole china internet and jails people
and huawei is telling this go do your work steal people data
Well, Americans made Kung Fu Panda, they didn't make Yoga Elephant
Ever heard of jungle book ? Aladdin ?
We had Jungle Book aeons before Kung Fu Panda came along.
Aladdin is Chinese, according to wiki. Look it up.
Ag Hs - ironically though - the main Chinese cultural soft powers martial arts and pottery/arts/crafts were decimated in the Cultural Revolution... They are coming back yes - but as someone once said it is CHina who SHOULD HAVE created Kung Fu Panda... I think that's the point - it took Hollywood to create Kung Fu Panda.. I think that's the issue of "soft power"
Kungfu Panda is a one-time cinematic experience. YOGA IS A PART OF THEIR DAILY LIVES!
Martin, what a great discussion from you. And now looking back, you were and always had been totally spot on! What a great scholar!
Anyone know what is the title of the book Martin spoke of early in the program....about this Confucianism thing?
i agree with china and less with Indias growth and future potential though i am indian..........the chinese have come a long way in being innovative and agressive in tackling the poverty and business growth and in India democracy stops innovation and growth.
haha i am an indian and so i can tell you a lot more about the social problems of india because of lack of development.........you are not seeing this as subjective ........your objective is to say India is better but it is not in many areas.........i love india and that is why i admit issue in my country first.
India should never aim for the Chinese growth or being a superpower. A moderate but inclusive growth is what is needed in India which is very much possible with proper public education infrastructure at all levels. But this most important thing has been vastly ignored in India since independence. Investing in education can pay rich dividends in future in terms of innovation, sustainable and knowledge economy.
Why this guy keep stopping Martin, let gentlemen to finish the sentence please
I agree with Martin as vast majority of Chinese think themselves as HAN...the HAN word in Chines is a symbolic characteristic of YOU ARE A MAN...be a man of CHINA for CHINA...
From Shashi Tharoor 's discussion about China, you can taste sour grape cross screen
Martin: it has been a wonderful discussion between you and Dr. Shashi. I also like to see both countries cooperate on common interests and I don't want to see it as any sort of competition between both nations. 😊👍
India has a democracy meaning every body has a vote, but Indian people still have classes. Chinese women for instance enjoy equality much much more than the Indians.
If you question the influence of China's soft power, just look at Japanese culture today
Or the cultures of South Korea and Vietnam ! South Korea even put the symbol of Chinese Taoism on their national flag!! The host knows it well but he acted like a clown throughout the show.
Correct