I love how there's so many different versions of Ryu/ There's Ryu, Blonde Ryu, School Girl Ryu, Brazilian Ryu, Old Ryu, Evil Ryu, Really Evil Ryu, SUPER EVIL Ryu, and dan.
She actually does shotokan karate, they renamed ryu and ken's style to ansatsuken and put a real shotokan rep in! They call it rindouken, but thats just her last name
@@jmcrofts I luv u dude but sean is actually the strongest character in SF 2nd Impact, that's part 2 of the 3rd strike series, with 3rd strike of course being the last part
poor Sean. Guys high tier in new warriors and top tier in 2nd impact, but his only rep in this list is his intentionally bad 3rd strike form XD poor lad
@@jhsrt985 he did say at the start of the video he was basing it on the most comonlly played competitive versions. so like, its understandable to use 3rd strike - new warriors and 2nd impact just do not really have a dedicated competitive playerbase and they are a lot more obscure, unlike with the alphas where people still played alpha 2 even after 3 came out still a bit of a shame for sean though XD
"Oni is banned" was actually true for the first two weeks of the SF4:AE release. Tournament organizers received early access copies of the game and were not allowed to show gameplay footage of characters that had not been fully announced yet. This led to the livestream chats being spammed with the phrase, because all the people joining the stream would ask why every player was skipping over Oni on the select screen.
I am not a big shoto player, but the shoto archetype is probably my favorite. I just think it is really cool and interesting to see how the base shoto tool kit is modified to create new interesting characters. I think there is just something really satisfying about the Street Fighter fanchise's various takes on the Shoto formula.
Kage is actually very strong, especially where his damage is buffed post patch. Additionally, he does have a full screen fireball (HCB+P). And contrary to what surprisingly still gets passed around on the web and in player circles, the martial art the "shotos" practice is not Shotokan, but Ansatsuken, which is really a catch all term for Assassination Arts in general. Blame Capcom USA 30 years ago for the Shotokan nonsense.
Mario in Smash 64 and Melee has a Fireball, a Tatsu, and a DP, but... yes, going with practitioners of Ansatsuken probably makes this a lot less messy.
I''d love to see Dan in the future games become like a serious badass, like he's gotten older but hes learned the best moves over time. That would be so cool. I love him, Also ryu in the new streetfighters needs to start being Top tier, he is destined to be the best.
The whole “Ryu being mid at best” problem the series has had for 2 decades (barring VSF4 and launch SF5 which doesn’t really exist) kinda baffles me. I know he’s supposed to be an “honest character”, so they can’t give him too much sauce, but can they at least buff his damage or something? Ken is consistently stronger which makes zero sense.
@@ChrisStoneinator ken is supposed to be his equal, so making them about the same level of "good" would be perfect, i feel like ken having the more sauce but less overall damage would be a nice balance between the two and would compliment their personalities aswell
Mr. JmCrofts. I genuinely appreciate you breaking down the "why" of how these characters are ranked. You take the time to enter training mode and collect clips to show the difference between characters in practical application. So many of these lists are purely subjective and it boils down to people saying, "this person is trash because I say so." As a person with a moderate interest in fighting games I appreciate it. Good work sir. Thank you.
He's taking the mean average for games used in high level competitive, and this is in comparison to other Shotos, not all other characters, so Dan does end up somewhere below every average in that context.
I'd like to see comparisons between games, truth be told. it's nice to see the different interpretations of "shotos". but then you'd have to set a standard for shoto that could get very muddy. in my brain a shoto ends up being "all rounder with fireball, DP-equivalent and tatsu-equivalent". for example, terry has power wave, burning knuckle, rising tackle. but that's still kind of broad. Filia(skullgirls) has equivalents to tatsu and DP, but does the spike count as a fireball? I've no idea
I feel like Filia is more of a rushdown character like Cammy, personally I've never thought of the spikes as a projectile move since you don't get the same stage control as a fireball. Fukua is definitely a shoto though.
I don't think the "Fireball/Hadouken + Dragon Punch/Shoryuken + Tatsumaki" is enough. With that logic Mario would be a Shoto, and while he has inspirations from Ryu, he isn't a Shoto for a simple reason: HE'S AN AIR FIGHTER who loves to use platforms to extend combos. Shotos are supposed to be mostly grounded with aerials being there mostly as mixup options, not jump-happy fighters.
After watching the intro (and actually thinking kinda hard on who you would consider a shoto), here's the list I'm anticipating (weakest to strongest): Sean Dan Kage Oni Gouken Ryu Evil Ryu Ken Sakura Akuma Now, on to watching the video and seeing how accurate my "hunch" guess is.
Damn! I almost got it 100% correct!! I got Ken and E.Ryu swapped but everything else was correct (well according to "science" anyway XD ). I'm honestly impressed at myself (yeah I'm kinda popping off lol).
I know you've basically already done this for Ryu, kinda (between your Ryu vs Ken video and a couple others) but, how about a "Which Ryu is Best Ryu?" and go through all the games he's in. If you reached outside the main SF games, you could easily fill 30-60 minutes ranking all the Ryus out there. And you could do this for Ken, Dictator, Claw, Boxer, Etc... There's a lot of meat on this concept and tier lists seem to still work well, so long as you don't wear it out with too-many-too-often.
I think part of Akuma being so constantly top tier is because in the lore hes such a boss dude. The low defence fits in perfectly with this backstory, almost to mimic his line of thinking which would be something like "why do I need defence when I'm so good your not even going to hit me?"
This is a great list. I’m mostly a shoto player and Ken/Sakura have been my mains. I would like to see a list of top “charge” characters where special moves are done by charging back then forward or down then up.
I would add Sagat to the "shoto" group not because of lore but because his move-set is virtually identical to Ken and Ryu. Even the inputs for most of his moves are the same. Fireball plus dragon (tiger) punch is his bread and butter. Any Ken or Ryu player can pick up Sagat and get work done.
In gameplay terms I wouldn't even call Gouken a shoto, aside from having a fireball he barely has anything in common with Ryu, lol Also there are some factual misunderstandings about him in this video: 1. Gouken's tatus have upper body invincibility even if you don't spend meter, so the light version is a fairly consistent anti air. The problem is that unless the opponent is coming down almost on top of you, it can lose hits, which is bad because only the last hit is safe on hit. 2. Gouken's crouching medium punch has great range, it looks a lot better than it is. The issue is that it doesn't combo to fireball at max range. 3. Gouken's biggest issue is probably just that he doesn't have access to damage from neutral, he needs a punish or read to make a significant dent in the opponent's health bar. 4. I also wouldn't say Gouken is mid tier in USF4, he's probably a bottom 5 or bottom 10 kind of character.
Gouken is basically a scuffed version of Akuma that has higher health. The developers were apparently really scared of making an unfair Akuma, so Gouken lacks many of the tools Akuma has, the ones he has are a worse version of Akuma's and then has some unique jank added in that largely doesn't work in his favor either. He feels all of that in the Akuma matchup. Examples: 1. Gouken's tatsus as you said are very risky to use as an actual anti-air. Gouken has to mostly rely on his normals. They're quite good anti air normals, yes, but still, meterless invincibility of Shoryukens is meterless invincibility. 2. Gouken's Hadokens - they're very good, yes, but hilariously Gouken lacks the ability to make a fast two hitting Hadoken. Spending meter makes him throw an additional fireball in the air, but he still has to charge them to make them two hits. This makes him vulnerable to all the other characters with a fireball. He's especially vulnerable to Akuma, who has the option of either spending meter for a quick two-hit fireball or can fire slower meterless fireballs that are still faster than Gouken's charge. 3. Gouken's anti-air Hadokens - grapplers hate them, but that's about where the advantages end. Overall, it is much more valuable to be able to cover an air approach with an air fireball like Akuma's, especially for a character like Gouken that does struggle to get in. Akuma can do some solid damage if his approach works; Gouken's juggles are limited in comparison. 4. Together with the demon flip parry, Gouken is especially vulnerable to armor-breaking moves, because they outright beat out his counters. On the other hand, Gouken himself struggles with breaking the armor of his opponents - no fast two hit fireballs (Akuma has several), no two hit normals (Akuma has from the top of my head a two hit overhead as well as a two hit kick that moves him forward). Overall, there are simply too many checks in place for Gouken for him to be a truly powerful character. He has too large a list of things that he cannot do that you have to work around.
Perhaps also include some ranking points for large tournament wins with the character? maybe do something like (champ wins/finals(or semis and finals) appearances) to give a bit more weight to not just tiering but also if someone styles on a tourny with a lower tier character giving them some swag points?
Seeing Sean in SF3 just prompts me to ask why do people keep asking for a SF3: Third Strike with rollback when like only half the cast is used due to poor balancing. Wouldn't it be better to ask for Capcom to not only add rollback to the game, but also give buffs to characters like Sean, Remy, Twelve for example? Great video by the way!
add two new guys dug from old beat'em ups and call it street fighter 3 fourth blast: ultimate duel! or they could just trim down the generic mechanics on SF6, add a few guys that are missing from the rosters of SF4 and SFV and call it a day
@@neverendingstory7250 Ik,itd j be nice if there was an official online mode for 3rd strike that was made by capcom & was halfway decent. The last one we got that was any good was 3s online edition back in 2011 but even that wasn’t that good.
it was surprising to me you had kage and evil ryu as separate characters, i always thought about kage as just being evil ryu physically manifested now that he's purged the dark hadou from himself by mastering power of nothingness
I hope in SF6 when Sean eventually is put in that they actually make him lean more into being a rushdown type character with some shoto flavor, it just makes so much sense given that his most unique attacks are more unrefined and based around brute force
Nice work, and it seems more or less "scientific", taking into account tier lists of the most commonly-played Street Fighter games, so there's really little that can be said against it.
The “shoto lore” thing keeps this from being a top tier list. We need a ranking of ALL the characters that are like Ryu/Ken. We need to see a ranking of basically anyone with hadouken-command projectile and a dragon-punch-command uppercut from ALL games. That would be sick!!
I understand averaging out based on multiple appearences but won't that skew things for characters that only have so far appeared once like Gouken and Kage simply because they've had less opportunities to be good or bad. Maybe I'm overthinking it, idk. Go ahead.
such a good video! I'd like to see something like charge characters in fighting games, like comparisons or toplists. Nash, guile, ash, remy, vatista, etc. Or Blanka, Charlota, Mitsuru, Sabrewulf, etc. Idk, just an idea
Should've included Street Fighter II Champion Edition , that game still gets played. and even know by lore all of these guys are Shotos , gameplay wise , Sean and Dan are not Shotos. Sean doesnt have a fireball or a hurricane kick Dan doesnt have a hurricane kick Even know by lore she isn't a Shoto , Chun Li in some iterations could be considered a Shoto , for an example in super turbo , she has a fireball(Kikoken) , a dp(Tenshokyaku) and a Hurricane Kick(Spinning bird kick).
I thought that Kage and evil Ryu where the same character. But o well. I was hoping you share going for the full list where anyone with a fireball and an dp enter the shoto label like sagat and guile.
I think they’re distinct in the lore because Evil Ryu is a non-canon depiction of what Ryu would look like if he gave in to the satsui no hado, whereas Kage is a manifestation of the satsui no hado inside Ryu. Kaye’s story is basically just Kage’s spirit escaping Ryu’s body and trying to challenge fighters like Sagat and Akuma to prove he is stronger than Ryu, but those characters don’t really take him seriously.
I think Ryu has mainly two things working against him. First, he is THE beginner character. Ken is as well, sure, but he's the second choice of a beginner character in the mind of the developers. This allows Ken to get some cooler stuff while Ryu stays as basic as possible. Next, in the Ryu/Ken dichotomy, Ryu is supposed to be the more defense-oriented character, with better zoning and more of a reactive playstyle while Ken is the proactive offensive rushdown powerhouse he is. Most modern fighting games in general favor a proactive gameplan than a reactive one, so Ryu gets the short end of the stick already by his character archetyping.
One thing you forgot about Akuma that makes him strong is he has a built in command grab super, that is usually on top of whatever supers the other characters get, while it's not always amazing depending on the game, it's an option he always has on top of everything else normal shotos get.
Nice video, I would def like similar ones with other archetypes. BUT we NEED you good sir to do a Street Fighter Movies tier list. Yeah I know...but it would be still cool I think
It's always sad seeing Sean be brought up as bad considering he was at one point really strong. In earlier iterations of SF3, he was one of the strongest characters in the game due to his normals generally being much better than they are in 3S, having great meter build, and having some of the best damage and stun input on his basic confirms in the entire game (if he touched you twice, you were going to get stunned). Bafael did a great video covering why Sean was better in 2nd impact than he was in 3S, so if you want to see why that's the case... look there :3
Kage is basically them deciding they really liked evil ryu but lore wise wanted it to make sense in the same universe. They couldn't show ryu overcoming the Satsui no hado then introduce him as consumed by it. But introducing the expelled essence I'd the hado that once lived inside him...there's a thoughtful evil ryu that works in the lore and isn't the one character who made no sense.
Ken better than Ryu?! Well, that certainly fits the lore, right? Ryu has more potential, but he's always holding back or going through some dark internal stuff.
It would be cool if you had a list of different styles of characters throughout fighting games. You had a video about Kanji in p4au and talked a bit about what was great about him, I was thinking you could do a video that was like 10 strongest grapplers or puppet users etc. Love your content!
I had no idea there were that many Shoto characters based off of Ryu & Ken in SF; wow! There could be a Shotos Only Game... Do a Top 100 Shotos!!! From all games you can think of... Using the technical definition for Shotos being having a fireball, an anti-air upcut like move, a move that moves the character horizontal like hurricane kick & whatever else makes a technical shoto(I don't remember). Including characters like Mario & Cyclopes, etc.
From what i gather, "shoto" was just a nickname given by the FGC to the archetypical Ryu-esque characters in fighting games BECAUSE their attire and main strategy depends on the fireball/tatsu-esque move/DP, so THAT makes up a "shoto". All this to say Ryu and Ken's official style is listed as Ansatsuken. But if I were to give it a deeper dive, Ken's fighting style seems to utilize more sport TKD and Kickboxing while Ryu favors more traditional Karate (we used to call them "flat-footed") with some also traditional TKD sprinkled in.
It’s completely random (you have a 15% chance of getting it whenever you do a Gadoken). If it was only a just frame you’d be seeing it A LOT more and mods to control which version you get most likely wouldn’t exist.
4:05 that’s me! players like dshon are the reason why I think Twelve is the worst character in 3rd Strike. to me it feels like you’ll see Sean finding some benefit to the parry system in SF3, but Twelve just fundamentally struggles because of his low damage output and lack of punish game.
2 года назад
I know you're an MTG fan. This video format reminds me a lot of the MTG top X videos that Nizzahon does, where he uses tournament results to "mathematically" determine the best, idk, hydras or whatever. You should check those out if you haven't.
We can see a glimpse of Ken Bogard during Evil Ryu part ... the best game comentator ever. Too bad he retired from that job, nobody comes even close to him
Huge Ryu fan, been running him as my main since the original release of Street Fighter II on the SNES. Looks to be right where he should be. Not too strong, not too weak.
i really hope they have Sean in sf6 and that's he's not a joke character there. he didn't deserve how badly they screwed him over in 3s and sfv story mode
Bruh... Sagat didnt even make the list? I get that he perhaps doesnt meet JMCrofts inclusion criteria but Im curious as to where he'd land on this list.
Another thing that makes Akuma strong in 3S is that his combos work against everyone (I think) whereas other characters need to do Kara cancels or route differently depending on who they’re fighting
That's comparing apples to oranges because of the context of their games. Like, Ryu is good defensive shoto, with good pokes and reliable specials, which is what street fighter is all about. Sol Badguy is more offensive, with more moves, a run, easy combos to connect etc etc, which works for guilty gear. You can't really decide which is better, since they're both after completely different things
I use Akuma in Third Strike because he has so many options. I've thought about using Ken because he was my main in SF2 but I just find I have a lot more I can do with Akuma.
I think one way to improve this would be to include games where the character was undeniably a standout. Even if the game isn’t competitively seeing play today, one thing that was a fact is that Sean was in the debate for being the best character in SF3 New Gen. To exclude that game and place him in last was really unfair to Sean when he was so strong Capcom felt the need to nerf him in a later iteration.
I have to disagree about ryu being midtier in SF4, Ryu was top tier in that game, looking how many tournaments diago won with that character during the games run and diago is only goin to play with a character that's goin to help him win tournaments.
He's talking specifically USF4 throughout the video, and yeah Ryu is like bottom of high tier at best. Still not beating out Ken, who was also better than Ryu in Ultra.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
Can't help but enjoy that there are 4 separate versions of "Ryu but evil", some of which are actually "Ryu but evil, but for real EVEN MORE evil".
ryu
evil ryu
ryu but evil
ryu but really evil
ryu but really evil but super duper evil
Meanwhile Ken only got violent. Someone should report that guy for domestic violence.
@@Micha-Hil Ryu but only metaphorically evil
Ryu wholly evil but not really Ryu
Akuma, Evil Ryu, Kage. Who's the fourth one?
@@PaddyRoon7 I guess Oni, if you're gonna include Akuma in there.
I love how there's so many different versions of Ryu/
There's Ryu, Blonde Ryu, School Girl Ryu, Brazilian Ryu, Old Ryu, Evil Ryu, Really Evil Ryu, SUPER EVIL Ryu, and dan.
Ah yes the 10 genders
Dan is goofy ryu
I identify as evil Ryu but was born as Dan.
....life's been hard.
It's not Dan, he's Funny Ryu.
@@kioshikarazu1728 Ryu really is the opposite of funny. His stand up would be terrible.
Can't believe you forgot Blanka. He trained under Dan and by lore reasons that makes him a lore shoto and you said your criteria was lore shotos.
He actually mixes shotokan with his own style (probably based in "capoeira") so it's not a full shoto
@@unbrokenm6817 R/whoosh.
@@rifasclub it was a joke? That's so sad, i thought I learned a new thing about the lore (╥﹏╥)
@@rifasclub I know right LOL
@Roger Loe
Your surname is one letter away from 'lore' so I agree with you.
Even though she's not a shoto, makoto's fighting style is the closest one to actual shotokan karate in street fighter
She actually does shotokan karate, they renamed ryu and ken's style to ansatsuken and put a real shotokan rep in! They call it rindouken, but thats just her last name
@@KeshavKrishnan so shotos would technically be called "Satsus?!" Lol
@@KeshavKrishnan so is makoto a shoto?
Which is why I'm so sad she wasn't in SFV
@@kujo4388 no but yes, hope this helped.
A Smash player answered this. It's obv Kazuya
facts
@@jmcrofts I luv u dude but sean is actually the strongest character in SF 2nd Impact, that's part 2 of the 3rd strike series, with 3rd strike of course being the last part
@@jhsrt985 yeah but he only took 3rd strike into account, he literally said what games he was doing that with lol
@@jhsrt985 Taking 2nd Impact into account just doesn't make sense because nobody ever played that game competitively.
@@THENAMEISQUICKMAN ?? They've been playing it for years, that's why I'm familiar. Obviously not as much as 3rd strike but it's still a thing
poor Sean. Guys high tier in new warriors and top tier in 2nd impact, but his only rep in this list is his intentionally bad 3rd strike form XD poor lad
I was wondering how he scored that low.
Love Sean in 2nd Impact
I think jm dosent know about the first 2 SF 3, there's no way he would've said this if he did, sean was number 1 even above Yun in 2nd impact
@@jhsrt985 he did say at the start of the video he was basing it on the most comonlly played competitive versions. so like, its understandable to use 3rd strike - new warriors and 2nd impact just do not really have a dedicated competitive playerbase and they are a lot more obscure, unlike with the alphas where people still played alpha 2 even after 3 came out
still a bit of a shame for sean though XD
@@therealHLY I heard that but i just felt like 2nd strike is big enough and active enough, a fair amount still play it competitively imo
"Oni is banned" was actually true for the first two weeks of the SF4:AE release. Tournament organizers received early access copies of the game and were not allowed to show gameplay footage of characters that had not been fully announced yet. This led to the livestream chats being spammed with the phrase, because all the people joining the stream would ask why every player was skipping over Oni on the select screen.
I am not a big shoto player, but the shoto archetype is probably my favorite. I just think it is really cool and interesting to see how the base shoto tool kit is modified to create new interesting characters. I think there is just something really satisfying about the Street Fighter fanchise's various takes on the Shoto formula.
Kage is actually very strong, especially where his damage is buffed post patch. Additionally, he does have a full screen fireball (HCB+P).
And contrary to what surprisingly still gets passed around on the web and in player circles, the martial art the "shotos" practice is not Shotokan, but Ansatsuken, which is really a catch all term for Assassination Arts in general. Blame Capcom USA 30 years ago for the Shotokan nonsense.
Damn. The term "Ansatsus" sounds badass.
he looks dumb so he is low tier
The actual shotokan, makoto, gets no love.
@@edgelord121crazy take. i dont know anyone who doesnt love makoto except for some 3s players becaude fuck makoto in that game
Mario in Smash 64 and Melee has a Fireball, a Tatsu, and a DP, but... yes, going with practitioners of Ansatsuken probably makes this a lot less messy.
Sakura is definitely my favorite out of all of them. I grew up with Alpha, Puzzle Fighter, and CVS2, and Sakura was always my go-to character.
**g
I''d love to see Dan in the future games become like a serious badass, like he's gotten older but hes learned the best moves over time. That would be so cool. I love him, Also ryu in the new streetfighters needs to start being Top tier, he is destined to be the best.
Evil Dan: A Dan who actually applied himself and trained seriously.
The whole “Ryu being mid at best” problem the series has had for 2 decades (barring VSF4 and launch SF5 which doesn’t really exist) kinda baffles me. I know he’s supposed to be an “honest character”, so they can’t give him too much sauce, but can they at least buff his damage or something? Ken is consistently stronger which makes zero sense.
@@ChrisStoneinator ken is supposed to be his equal, so making them about the same level of "good" would be perfect, i feel like ken having the more sauce but less overall damage would be a nice balance between the two and would compliment their personalities aswell
13:45 What in the...WTF?! When you hit with the solar plexus, Guile Pukes! I had no idea.
Mr. JmCrofts. I genuinely appreciate you breaking down the "why" of how these characters are ranked. You take the time to enter training mode and collect clips to show the difference between characters in practical application. So many of these lists are purely subjective and it boils down to people saying, "this person is trash because I say so." As a person with a moderate interest in fighting games I appreciate it. Good work sir. Thank you.
I'm surprised Dan was so low, he's pretty good in SFV
I thought he'd be ignoring SFV, but then included Kage (who is probably a lil' higher now after the patch).
He's taking the mean average for games used in high level competitive, and this is in comparison to other Shotos, not all other characters, so Dan does end up somewhere below every average in that context.
@@shurahomura8863 yeah I get that, I guess I was expecting the outlier of SFV to have more impact on the average than it did ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
He was also top tier in Omega SF4.
New Gen Sean, which is the original concept of Sean is actually amazing.
Thank you, dude he must not know the truth
sean should have grapples as a shoto
@@ri_c_e his fireball motion is a command dash with upper body invulnerability, and if you hold the button you get a command grab
@@GhibliNova yeah but focus on it, to rep laura and the shoto archtype
0:31 - Missed opportunity: "Beyond a Shoto of a doubt".
I'd like to see comparisons between games, truth be told. it's nice to see the different interpretations of "shotos".
but then you'd have to set a standard for shoto that could get very muddy.
in my brain a shoto ends up being "all rounder with fireball, DP-equivalent and tatsu-equivalent". for example, terry has power wave, burning knuckle, rising tackle.
but that's still kind of broad. Filia(skullgirls) has equivalents to tatsu and DP, but does the spike count as a fireball? I've no idea
I feel like Filia is more of a rushdown character like Cammy, personally I've never thought of the spikes as a projectile move since you don't get the same stage control as a fireball. Fukua is definitely a shoto though.
I don't think the "Fireball/Hadouken + Dragon Punch/Shoryuken + Tatsumaki" is enough. With that logic Mario would be a Shoto, and while he has inspirations from Ryu, he isn't a Shoto for a simple reason: HE'S AN AIR FIGHTER who loves to use platforms to extend combos. Shotos are supposed to be mostly grounded with aerials being there mostly as mixup options, not jump-happy fighters.
After watching the intro (and actually thinking kinda hard on who you would consider a shoto), here's the list I'm anticipating (weakest to strongest):
Sean
Dan
Kage
Oni
Gouken
Ryu
Evil Ryu
Ken
Sakura
Akuma
Now, on to watching the video and seeing how accurate my "hunch" guess is.
Damn! I almost got it 100% correct!! I got Ken and E.Ryu swapped but everything else was correct (well according to "science" anyway XD ). I'm honestly impressed at myself (yeah I'm kinda popping off lol).
O loco, vai com calma filho UHEUAHEUAHEUA
Dang nice guess bro, glad to see the shoto waifu Sakura on top tier!
@@f1r3hunt3rz5 Well of course she is! She's hella busted in A3 and you can't be bad with a 3f c.HP that also anti airs in SF4 XD
I know you've basically already done this for Ryu, kinda (between your Ryu vs Ken video and a couple others) but, how about a "Which Ryu is Best Ryu?" and go through all the games he's in. If you reached outside the main SF games, you could easily fill 30-60 minutes ranking all the Ryus out there. And you could do this for Ken, Dictator, Claw, Boxer, Etc... There's a lot of meat on this concept and tier lists seem to still work well, so long as you don't wear it out with too-many-too-often.
Best Ryu would be vanilla SF4 Ryu, right? I think that's the only Street Fighter game ever released where he's unquestionably in the top tier.
I think part of Akuma being so constantly top tier is because in the lore hes such a boss dude. The low defence fits in perfectly with this backstory, almost to mimic his line of thinking which would be something like "why do I need defence when I'm so good your not even going to hit me?"
This is a great list. I’m mostly a shoto player and Ken/Sakura have been my mains. I would like to see a list of top “charge” characters where special moves are done by charging back then forward or down then up.
Charge is different cuz even in SF, charge characters can play completely different from each other, and some characters aren’t full charge
@@NeoBoneGirl yeah like Chun and Guile
See this is why I'm subscribed to this man. He just comes up with the coolest ideas for a video!
Why is Shen Long not on this list?
You have to defeat him to stand a chance, so he is at least mid tier
Even he is impotent to Long Dick Johnson though.
I would add Sagat to the "shoto" group not because of lore but because his move-set is virtually identical to Ken and Ryu. Even the inputs for most of his moves are the same. Fireball plus dragon (tiger) punch is his bread and butter. Any Ken or Ryu player can pick up Sagat and get work done.
In gameplay terms I wouldn't even call Gouken a shoto, aside from having a fireball he barely has anything in common with Ryu, lol
Also there are some factual misunderstandings about him in this video:
1. Gouken's tatus have upper body invincibility even if you don't spend meter, so the light version is a fairly consistent anti air. The problem is that unless the opponent is coming down almost on top of you, it can lose hits, which is bad because only the last hit is safe on hit.
2. Gouken's crouching medium punch has great range, it looks a lot better than it is. The issue is that it doesn't combo to fireball at max range.
3. Gouken's biggest issue is probably just that he doesn't have access to damage from neutral, he needs a punish or read to make a significant dent in the opponent's health bar.
4. I also wouldn't say Gouken is mid tier in USF4, he's probably a bottom 5 or bottom 10 kind of character.
Gouken is basically a scuffed version of Akuma that has higher health. The developers were apparently really scared of making an unfair Akuma, so Gouken lacks many of the tools Akuma has, the ones he has are a worse version of Akuma's and then has some unique jank added in that largely doesn't work in his favor either. He feels all of that in the Akuma matchup. Examples:
1. Gouken's tatsus as you said are very risky to use as an actual anti-air. Gouken has to mostly rely on his normals. They're quite good anti air normals, yes, but still, meterless invincibility of Shoryukens is meterless invincibility.
2. Gouken's Hadokens - they're very good, yes, but hilariously Gouken lacks the ability to make a fast two hitting Hadoken. Spending meter makes him throw an additional fireball in the air, but he still has to charge them to make them two hits. This makes him vulnerable to all the other characters with a fireball. He's especially vulnerable to Akuma, who has the option of either spending meter for a quick two-hit fireball or can fire slower meterless fireballs that are still faster than Gouken's charge.
3. Gouken's anti-air Hadokens - grapplers hate them, but that's about where the advantages end. Overall, it is much more valuable to be able to cover an air approach with an air fireball like Akuma's, especially for a character like Gouken that does struggle to get in. Akuma can do some solid damage if his approach works; Gouken's juggles are limited in comparison.
4. Together with the demon flip parry, Gouken is especially vulnerable to armor-breaking moves, because they outright beat out his counters. On the other hand, Gouken himself struggles with breaking the armor of his opponents - no fast two hit fireballs (Akuma has several), no two hit normals (Akuma has from the top of my head a two hit overhead as well as a two hit kick that moves him forward).
Overall, there are simply too many checks in place for Gouken for him to be a truly powerful character. He has too large a list of things that he cannot do that you have to work around.
Perhaps also include some ranking points for large tournament wins with the character? maybe do something like (champ wins/finals(or semis and finals) appearances) to give a bit more weight to not just tiering but also if someone styles on a tourny with a lower tier character giving them some swag points?
Winning grand Finals: 5 points
Being in Grand Finals: 4 points
Winners/Losers final: 3 points
Top 8: 2 points
Top 16: 1 point
Ryu
Evil Ryu
Shadow Ryu (Kage)
Thai Giant Ryu (Sagat)
SNK Joke Ryu (Dan)
Girl Ryu (Sakura)
Player 2 Ryu (Ken)
Demonic Antogonist Ryu (Akuma)
Shin Demonic Antagonist Ryu (Shin Akuma)
Super Firey Shin Demonic Antagonist Ryu (Oni)
Brazillian Apprentice Player 2 Ryu (Sean)
Ancient Bearded Teacher Ryu (Gouken)
Boss Subrversion Ryu (Seth)
No wonder Ryu can't finish first in Capcom popularity ratings! He's competing with his own variations!
Street Fighter IV really WAS "Oops, all Shotos", wasn't it?
Where's my boy Joke Ryu (Dan)??
Didn't finish the video yet, but I'm guessing Sak making top 3. She's arguably top 3 in USF4, A tier in SFV and sho-sho-train in CV2 is so good!
Yes. My girl Sakura is up there. She's been my main since Alpha 2. I always loved how her SRK hits multiple times and how she dashes towards you.
Thanks for the fun video. I love the Demon Ultimates, so I'm on board with Akuma!
Seeing Sean in SF3 just prompts me to ask why do people keep asking for a SF3: Third Strike with rollback when like only half the cast is used due to poor balancing. Wouldn't it be better to ask for Capcom to not only add rollback to the game, but also give buffs to characters like Sean, Remy, Twelve for example? Great video by the way!
add two new guys dug from old beat'em ups and call it street fighter 3 fourth blast: ultimate duel!
or they could just trim down the generic mechanics on SF6, add a few guys that are missing from the rosters of SF4 and SFV and call it a day
Both would be ideal
there is already 3rd strike with rollback, its on fightcade
@@neverendingstory7250 Ik,itd j be nice if there was an official online mode for 3rd strike that was made by capcom & was halfway decent. The last one we got that was any good was 3s online edition back in 2011 but even that wasn’t that good.
The 3rd Strike fanbase lives in their own bubble.
I love how Akuma is also top tier in Tekken 7
Nice list! Didn't know Sakura was so high in many games. 😳
I did, but I'm pretty sure no one actually taught Sakura shotcon...
Shotacon maybe, but not shotocon.
As a Dan main since '96, I felt so betrayed when Sean came out. They did mah boi dirty fr.
it was surprising to me you had kage and evil ryu as separate characters, i always thought about kage as just being evil ryu physically manifested now that he's purged the dark hadou from himself by mastering power of nothingness
I liked the video and commenting for algorithm purposes!
I hope in SF6 when Sean eventually is put in that they actually make him lean more into being a rushdown type character with some shoto flavor, it just makes so much sense given that his most unique attacks are more unrefined and based around brute force
Make Sean the Sin of Street Fighter. I love it.
great video as always. would love to see this done with grapplers or zoners
Nice work, and it seems more or less "scientific", taking into account tier lists of the most commonly-played Street Fighter games, so there's really little that can be said against it.
The “shoto lore” thing keeps this from being a top tier list. We need a ranking of ALL the characters that are like Ryu/Ken. We need to see a ranking of basically anyone with hadouken-command projectile and a dragon-punch-command uppercut from ALL games. That would be sick!!
I understand averaging out based on multiple appearences but won't that skew things for characters that only have so far appeared once like Gouken and Kage simply because they've had less opportunities to be good or bad. Maybe I'm overthinking it, idk. Go ahead.
9:52 dang Gouken had the Neatherrealm Stanky Leg before the Netherrealm Stanky Leg
Great video thank you. Im curious what youll rank next
such a good video! I'd like to see something like charge characters in fighting games, like comparisons or toplists. Nash, guile, ash, remy, vatista, etc. Or Blanka, Charlota, Mitsuru, Sabrewulf, etc. Idk, just an idea
Should've included Street Fighter II Champion Edition , that game still gets played.
and even know by lore all of these guys are Shotos , gameplay wise , Sean and Dan are not Shotos.
Sean doesnt have a fireball or a hurricane kick
Dan doesnt have a hurricane kick
Even know by lore she isn't a Shoto , Chun Li in some iterations could be considered a Shoto , for an example in super turbo , she has a fireball(Kikoken) , a dp(Tenshokyaku) and a Hurricane Kick(Spinning bird kick).
I completely agree with SFA2/3 Sakura being so high. She was incredible. She became my main.
A top 15 best Street Fighter characters list over all would be dope. Using this methodology.
I would love to see a list of Shotos from other games.
I thought that Kage and evil Ryu where the same character.
But o well. I was hoping you share going for the full list where anyone with a fireball and an dp enter the shoto label like sagat and guile.
I think they’re distinct in the lore because Evil Ryu is a non-canon depiction of what Ryu would look like if he gave in to the satsui no hado, whereas Kage is a manifestation of the satsui no hado inside Ryu. Kaye’s story is basically just Kage’s spirit escaping Ryu’s body and trying to challenge fighters like Sagat and Akuma to prove he is stronger than Ryu, but those characters don’t really take him seriously.
I don’t take kage serious either although I made him work it’s just the stubbiness that gets to me.
think u was spot on!! great work
I really enjoy your fighting game vids. Keep up the good work
It's odd that Ryu placed so low, since I thought the main takeaway I got from the "Ryu/Ken differences" was that Ryu was usually better.
I think Ryu has mainly two things working against him. First, he is THE beginner character. Ken is as well, sure, but he's the second choice of a beginner character in the mind of the developers. This allows Ken to get some cooler stuff while Ryu stays as basic as possible. Next, in the Ryu/Ken dichotomy, Ryu is supposed to be the more defense-oriented character, with better zoning and more of a reactive playstyle while Ken is the proactive offensive rushdown powerhouse he is. Most modern fighting games in general favor a proactive gameplan than a reactive one, so Ryu gets the short end of the stick already by his character archetyping.
One thing you forgot about Akuma that makes him strong is he has a built in command grab super, that is usually on top of whatever supers the other characters get, while it's not always amazing depending on the game, it's an option he always has on top of everything else normal shotos get.
I'm surprised you didn't make 2nd Impact since it's often discussed as its own game. Still a great video though.
I don't think he knows
He said that the games factoring into the average were the ones still commonly played in tourneys. That would definitely be 3s.
@@d3v1lsummoner 2nd Impact is also still played in tournies. Maybe not as much as 3S but then again neither is Alpha 3
Sajam is having a heart attack that you based this entirely on tier lists.
Nice video, I would def like similar ones with other archetypes. BUT we NEED you good sir to do a Street Fighter Movies tier list. Yeah I know...but it would be still cool I think
Now these are the questions, and answers, I'm here for.
It's always sad seeing Sean be brought up as bad considering he was at one point really strong. In earlier iterations of SF3, he was one of the strongest characters in the game due to his normals generally being much better than they are in 3S, having great meter build, and having some of the best damage and stun input on his basic confirms in the entire game (if he touched you twice, you were going to get stunned). Bafael did a great video covering why Sean was better in 2nd impact than he was in 3S, so if you want to see why that's the case... look there :3
Nice Video What if you rank every Street Fighter grapplers or any archetypes next time
Yoo. Great Video!
Kage is basically them deciding they really liked evil ryu but lore wise wanted it to make sense in the same universe. They couldn't show ryu overcoming the Satsui no hado then introduce him as consumed by it. But introducing the expelled essence I'd the hado that once lived inside him...there's a thoughtful evil ryu that works in the lore and isn't the one character who made no sense.
Ken better than Ryu?! Well, that certainly fits the lore, right? Ryu has more potential, but he's always holding back or going through some dark internal stuff.
Idk
Next up we need a Rekka character ranking!!!!
It would be cool if you had a list of different styles of characters throughout fighting games. You had a video about Kanji in p4au and talked a bit about what was great about him, I was thinking you could do a video that was like 10 strongest grapplers or puppet users etc. Love your content!
I had no idea there were that many Shoto characters based off of Ryu & Ken in SF; wow!
There could be a Shotos Only Game...
Do a Top 100 Shotos!!!
From all games you can think of... Using the technical definition for Shotos being having a fireball, an anti-air upcut like move, a move that moves the character horizontal like hurricane kick & whatever else makes a technical shoto(I don't remember).
Including characters like Mario & Cyclopes, etc.
I wonder, how about top 10 competitive fighting games of all-time?
"Ryu is in the middle of the list, hopefully that doesn't upset you gu-"
*Daigo wants to know your location*
From what i gather, "shoto" was just a nickname given by the FGC to the archetypical Ryu-esque characters in fighting games BECAUSE their attire and main strategy depends on the fireball/tatsu-esque move/DP, so THAT makes up a "shoto".
All this to say Ryu and Ken's official style is listed as Ansatsuken. But if I were to give it a deeper dive, Ken's fighting style seems to utilize more sport TKD and Kickboxing while Ryu favors more traditional Karate (we used to call them "flat-footed") with some also traditional TKD sprinkled in.
Have you done a video where you rank every ryu throughout all games? Every Ken? Every Sagat
Would love to see a Street Fighter grappler tier list
Where do you think Violent Ken would be if Ultra Street Fighter 2 was added?
Dan's red fireball in sfv is a frame perfect input and i think it speaks to the fact that dan has finally found his place in the series
It's definitely rng
It’s completely random (you have a 15% chance of getting it whenever you do a Gadoken). If it was only a just frame you’d be seeing it A LOT more and mods to control which version you get most likely wouldn’t exist.
4:05 that’s me!
players like dshon are the reason why I think Twelve is the worst character in 3rd Strike. to me it feels like you’ll see Sean finding some benefit to the parry system in SF3, but Twelve just fundamentally struggles because of his low damage output and lack of punish game.
I know you're an MTG fan. This video format reminds me a lot of the MTG top X videos that Nizzahon does, where he uses tournament results to "mathematically" determine the best, idk, hydras or whatever. You should check those out if you haven't.
yup love those
rank every grappler in street fighter series, that'd be nice too!
I love that shaggy Mario and sagat are all technically contemporaries
We can see a glimpse of Ken Bogard during Evil Ryu part ... the best game comentator ever. Too bad he retired from that job, nobody comes even close to him
Huge Ryu fan, been running him as my main since the original release of Street Fighter II on the SNES. Looks to be right where he should be. Not too strong, not too weak.
i really hope they have Sean in sf6 and that's he's not a joke character there. he didn't deserve how badly they screwed him over in 3s and sfv story mode
I love Sakura Kasganso shoto style Street Fighter Alpha 2&3 MVC SF4 and SFV series my character most excellent work give you score 9/10!
I think you should have touched on SFV Dan, he actually has some tools that allow him to hold his own, even though he is still low tier.
other than settling the debate, it wasn't too surprising to see the top 3
How about a ranking of the ssf2t roster from over the series?
Cyclops from MVC2 should be here.
Ryu being number 5 is the most perfect thing I’ve ever seen
Bruh... Sagat didnt even make the list? I get that he perhaps doesnt meet JMCrofts inclusion criteria but Im curious as to where he'd land on this list.
Redo this with every shoto from like... Any game that's been at evo
I feel Sf EX 1, 2, & 3 would be good coverage. Arika made great characters. Cracker Jack, Darun Mister & Shadow Geist are my top 3.
i second this nanase and area had crazy setplay
i recommend watching a-cho matches for ex2plus
@@polar6066 She ain’t nothing to play with. She’s my go to girl pick. Originally I’m an mk player but that her staff put Raidens to shame.
evil ryu was also in alpha 3 max, on psp. i love ths game so much. such nice pixel art
Another thing that makes Akuma strong in 3S is that his combos work against everyone (I think) whereas other characters need to do Kara cancels or route differently depending on who they’re fighting
Can you do best charge character?
Ken & Ryu do Kyokushin karate,not Shotokan?
Where did you get your info from?
Their lore states that they practiced shotokan karate together
This is great but can we get an overall shoto ranking from all fighting games? 🤔
That's comparing apples to oranges because of the context of their games. Like, Ryu is good defensive shoto, with good pokes and reliable specials, which is what street fighter is all about. Sol Badguy is more offensive, with more moves, a run, easy combos to connect etc etc, which works for guilty gear. You can't really decide which is better, since they're both after completely different things
I use Akuma in Third Strike because he has so many options. I've thought about using Ken because he was my main in SF2 but I just find I have a lot more I can do with Akuma.
I think one way to improve this would be to include games where the character was undeniably a standout. Even if the game isn’t competitively seeing play today, one thing that was a fact is that Sean was in the debate for being the best character in SF3 New Gen. To exclude that game and place him in last was really unfair to Sean when he was so strong Capcom felt the need to nerf him in a later iteration.
I have to disagree about ryu being midtier in SF4, Ryu was top tier in that game, looking how many tournaments diago won with that character during the games run and diago is only goin to play with a character that's goin to help him win tournaments.
He's talking specifically USF4 throughout the video, and yeah Ryu is like bottom of high tier at best. Still not beating out Ken, who was also better than Ryu in Ultra.
Ryu was top-tier in vanilla SF4 but he slowly slid down the tierlist. Overall, 4 is probably his strongest outing though.
Might need an update to Kage post patch, haha.
Man I really wish I could do those FADC combos....thats the only reason I dropped SF4 and picked up SFV
I would love to see a top 10 best grapplers of st