Paul Does Not Think Jesus was a Preexistent Divine Being --The Surprising Meaning of Philippians 2
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- Опубликовано: 24 ноя 2022
- Did Paul believe that Jesus preexisted as a heavenly being? There is a section of Paul's letter to the Philippians (2:5-10), that both mythicists, many academics and historians, and almost all "believers," agree--namely that Paul views Jesus as a preexistence divine being--who left his heavenly abode and was incarnated as a flesh and blood human being. This "declaration," often called a pre-Pauline "Hymn" I argue has nothing to do with Jesus' preexistence. In fact it applies ideally, according to Paul, to every human being who is "called" by Christ to follow him. In this exposition, hosted by @MythVisionPodcast host, Derek Lambert, I lay out my understanding of this pivotal and foundational text. I also show how my reading of the text fits seamlessly with other passages in Paul--including 1 Corinthians 15; Romans 8, and 2 Corinthians 5.
Fun fact: mankind didn't even know that caterpillars and butterflies were the same species until the mid-1600's! That's how different they are.
You need a new body to reside in the new heavens and new earth ( new universe) -- Isaiah 6517..20, 66:22; 2 Peter 3:12-13; Revelation 21:1 -- "where the wolf shall dwell with the lamb....And the lion shall eat straw like the ox... they shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain (/kingdom)... for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea." (Isaiah 11:6-9)
Helpful and informative as ever.
Your excitement kept me going past the halfway point, good job.
"Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness." Phil 2:6
"The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven." 1 Cor 15:47
Paul taught Jesus was equal with God, came from Heaven, became as a man and died for our sins. Standard Christian beliefs in other words.
Yeah but this so-called Professor just interpreted as how he wants to believe and to me it's pretty wild how it goes on and on in such an elaborate interpretation then I'm surprised he even remembers what he is interpreting. Lol
Jesus the man was formed in the womb of his mother just like everyone else. The Spirit in Jesus was the Logos come down from heaven. Jesus was so empty of self that when he spoke it truly was the Logos speaking in and through him. Jesus was the physical body which was a pure temple for the habitation of the Divine nature and he taught how we too can become as he was and is. It is an inner transformation. It is a renewing of the mind, a shift in perspective. The Kingdom is within you it doesn't come with observation, it's not something we can see, not a physical kingdom. Paul talks about attaining to the resurrection which is manifesting Christ in us which is the perfecting of human nature. It is about restoring what was lost and becoming whole as we were when we were children. Fallen nature is a twisting, a perversion, of our original nature. It is a return to our original state; we left the garden as babes not knowing what we had we return as fully matured adults realizing our connection, our oneness with the whole.
Thanks much for this video.
"Grace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Chist." (Philippians 1:2)
"God" and "Lord" have the same authority. They both mean God.
"...that at the name every knee should bow....and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord..." (Philippians 2:10-11 )
Sounds like God to me.
Very interesting 😊
Good stuff👍
Yet Phil 3:10-11 does mention anastasis and used it in the context of His resurrection. I still like Dr Tabor's work, but I think it is a difficult thing to prove that Paul didn't consider Jesus resurrected. I think he can argue that Paul considered it a different type of resurrection, but not that he didn't think it happened.
Would be so cool to hear a conversation between James and Bart Ehrman on Paul!
I had an ad in this show where the guy raved about 'an herb extract' but wouldn't give the name of the herb. To me, that is as close a similarity to the 'unspeakable experience' Paul had when Jesus appeared to him. Although he is expressing something sublime, I think it's his hook. He could describe it, but if you follow Christ and listen to Paul you can experience it, too.
DMT is probably the "extract." It causes the exact same experiences as so-called "near-death" or other religious experiences. Paul never says that Jesus appeared to him, by the way, He just says he "saw" Jesus but implies he thought he saw him in Heaven. Paul does not have a view of Jesus being resurrected from the dead and then ascending to Heaven, just a straight ascension with no Earth part in between. The earthly appearance stories were all late additions to the story. Mark is the first Gospel written and has no appearance stories just an empty tomb. Mark says the women ran away from the tomb and never told anybody. It is explicitly stated by the young man at the tomb that must go to Galilee to see Jesus. The other Gospels didn't like that ending (probably partly because they wanted Jesus to first appear in Jerusalem, not Galilee) so they all tacked on their own endings, none of which agree with each other, with Mark or with Paul's own letters. I think Paul thought he saw Jesus in Heaven, perhaps during an NDE type experience. He implies having gone through some sort of illness or trauma in Galatia and being nursed back to health by them. Frontal lobe epilepsy would be consistent with some of the symptoms reported in Acts (although Paul himself never tells the road to Damascus story or mentions it at all) such as the bright lights, temporary blindness, auditory and visual hallucinations, etc.
Agreed. The easiest way to explain his weak and isolated commentary is that it is simply made up, or a mental experience that just happened in his head. He would be highly motivated to make it up in order to seek viability with his upcoming Church doctrine. Something Jesus was not a part of. And as far as him thinking it might have been real, people today have NDE's and there's every reason to believe those experiences simply exist in the misfiring electro-chemical brain. Same as dreams.
I tend to think it is made up. People like to believe things that make them feel good, regardless of facts.
Test Paul as a true apostle.
When my 85 yo mother asked what I wanted for my birthday this year, I told her I wanted to send her this translation of Genesis so that we could both read it and discuss it together.
She (1) was raised and raised me a Pauline Christian and (2) taught multiple languages for many years.
We've both read the explanatory introduction and she is intrigued.
❤ That is beautiful. Discovery never ends!
See God's handiwork on a clear sunny day coming down 360° all around us.
1) In Genesis, and Psalms there's mention of waters above. In Genesis the waters are being separated from below to above, and are established forever. Some apologists would say it's the water cycle. Note: water & land is preexisting (no Creatio ex nihilo).
Genesis 1:6-7
NASB: "6 Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 God made the expanse, and separated the waters that were below the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse; and it was so."
KJV: "6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so."
YLT: "6And God saith, `Let an expanse be in the midst of the waters, and let it be separating between waters and waters.`7 And God maketh the expanse, and it separateth between the waters which [are] under the expanse, and the waters which [are] above the expanse: and it is so."
NRSV: "6 And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." 7 So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so."
Psalm 148:4-6
NASB: "4 Praise Him, highest heavens, And the waters that are above the heavens 5 They are to praise the name of the Lord, For He commanded and they were created. 6 He has also established them forever and ever; He has made a decree, and it will not pass away."
KJV: "4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created. 6 He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass."
YLT: "4 Praise ye Him, heavens of heavens, And ye waters that are above the heavens. 5 They do praise the name of Jehovah, For He commanded, and they were created. 6 And He establisheth them for ever to the age, A statute He gave, and they pass not over."
NRSV: "4 Praise him, you highest heavens, and you waters above the heavens! 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD, for he commanded and they were created. 6 He established them forever and ever; he fixed their bounds, which cannot be passed."
2) In Genesis, and Isaiah there's windows, or floodgates in the sky which God opens to commit a flood genocide, and close to have righteous incestual population replenishment.
Genesis 7:11
NASB: "11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened."
KJV: "11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."
YLT: "11 In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, in this day have been broken up all fountains of the great deep, and the net-work of the heavens hath been opened,"
NRSV: "11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened."
Genesis 8:2
NASB: "2 Also the fountains of the deep and the floodgates of the sky were closed, and the rain from the sky was restrained;"
KJV: "2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained"
YLT: "2 and closed are the fountains of the deep and the net-work of the heavens, and restrained is the shower from the heavens."
NRSV: "2 the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,"
Isaiah 24:18c
NASB: "18c For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake."
KJV: "18c for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake."
YLT: "18c For windows on high have been opened, And shaken are foundations of the land."
NRSV: "18c For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble."
3) The Firmament in Proverbs, and Job clearly (as clear as the molten glass dome) talk about a firm cast metal strengthened mirror sky. In Proverbs it mentions the unpassable boundery of the sea which is why the light blue sea of Heaven does not mix with the deep blue ocean of the Earth (waters above/below) which one can observe looking out over the ocean.
Proverbs 8:28-29
NASB: "28 When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, 29 When He set a boundary for the sea So that the water would not violate His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;"
KJV: "28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:"
YLT: "28 In His strengthening clouds above, In His making strong fountains of the deep, 29 In His setting for the sea its limit, And the waters transgress not His command, In His decreeing the foundations of earth,"
NRSV: "28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, 29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth,"
Job 37:18
NASB: "18 Can you, with Him, spread out the skies, Strong as a cast metal mirror?"
KJV: "18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?"
YLT: "18 Thou hast made an expanse with Him For the clouds -- strong as a hard mirror!"
NRSV: "18 Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?"
"Finally, it is worth pointing out that the world picture of the Jewish people, as reconstructed from various passages in the Bible, was essentially the same as that of the Egyptians and the Babylonians. ...The flat, disc-shaped Earth is surrounded by a sea; beneath the Earth, there are wells and fountains connected with the upper part of the Earth as well as with the great deep, called Tehom. The Earth rests on pillars, and above it is the sky or firmament. Waters are to be found not only on the Earth or beneath it, but also above the firmament."
Helge S. Kragh, Conception of Cosmos, pp. 10
A glass dome holds up an ocean, and the dark blue ocean does not mix with the light blue sky all due to an unpassable barrier. Who knew but the Lord.
Even though the Quran mentions terrestrial salt and fresh water seas, there's references though vague are reminiscent of the OT's cosmology (vague for the sake of Dopamine inducing poetry).
Quran (Pickthal/The Clear Quran/Saheeh International)
(PICKT) 21.032 "And we have made the sky a roof withheld (from them). Yet they turn away from its portents."
(TCQ) 21.32 "And We have made the sky a well-protected canopy, still they turn away from its signs."
(Saheeh) 21.32 "And We made the sky a protected ceiling, but they, from its signs, are turning away."
(PICKT) 25.053 "And He it is Who hath given independence to the two seas (though they meet); one palatable, sweet, and the other saltish, bitter; and hath set a bar and a forbidding ban between them."
(TCQ) 25.53 "And He is the One Who merges the two bodies of water: one fresh and palatable and the other salty and bitter, placing between them a barrier they cannot cross."
(Saheeh) 25.53 "And it is He who has released [simultaneously] the two seas, one fresh and sweet and one salty and bitter, and He placed between them a barrier and prohibiting partition."
(PICKT) 27.061 "Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein, and hath set a barrier between the two seas? Is there any God beside Allah? Nay, but most of them know not!"
(TCQ) 27.61 "Or [ask them,] “Who made the earth a place of settlement, caused rivers to flow through it, placed firm mountains upon it, and set a barrier between [fresh and salt] bodies of water? Was it another god besides God?” Absolutely not! But most of them do not know."
(Saheeh) 27.61 "Is He [not best] who made the earth a stable ground and placed within it rivers and made for it firmly set mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier? Is there a deity with Allah? [No], but most of them do not know."
(PICKT) 55.019-020 "He hath loosed the two seas. They meet. There is a barrier between them. They encroach not (one upon the other)."
(TCQ) 55.19-.20 "He merges the two bodies of [fresh and salt] water, yet between them is a barrier they never cross."
(Saheeh) 55.19-.20 "He released the two seas, meeting [side by side]; Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgress."
@@bleirdo_dude I assume you are claiming the earth is flat. Or that people in the past did. You have got to free yourself from that. Air in the presence of water forms a round bubble. That is as far as I will go. Perhaps the firmament referred to an environment like Proto-Saturn. Who knows but even in that case the earth is round. I can't help but laugh a bit at the idea of a flat earth. 🤣
@@matthewalger4690 The OT talks about a glass dome that holds up the ocean of Heaven.
@@bleirdo_dude In Hebrew, "heaven" (" מים מעל ")can be considered as a compound word, SheMeYaM (heaven).. Mayim = waters.. Shamayim = the skk, or the waters above. Some interpreters believe that the waters above are referring to a water vapor canopy that was above the earth prior to the Flood of Noah.
7:35
The late Dr. Heiser was one of those Bible scholars who understood several ancient semitic languages. His insights on the Israel's heavenly host is about as thorough as it gets. Below is a quick 101 of how he would explain Philippians 2:9
When comparing Philippians 2:9 "exalted above every name" to Exodus 25: 21 " .. for my name is in him." It's the angel of the LORD who is YVWH.
Jews knew their OT and the embodiment language pops up in numerous other places found in the books of Moses, it is a very real theological thing to them during the second temple period. It didn't take long for it to become a heresy after drawing so many unclean gentiles to Judaism.
The number of ads in this video is RIDICULOUS.
What do you make of the direct quote from Isaiah about every knee bowing before G-d being applied to Jesus?
Thank you for all your insightful videos, love it and keep up the great work! Happy Thanksgiving! It's odd that the new testament mainly consist of Jesus and Paul, yet the two have never met...or have they? The Gospels have mentioned many times that Jesus being followed and challenged by pharisees, non were named btw, and Paul was a pharisee
And the Apostle Paul was the last desciple to be called by Jesus Luke 18:22. I believe he was also present at the time of the baptism of Jesus Christ, because he would have known about John the Baptist and everything he said concerning the Messiah, which could have prompted him, as a Pharisee of pharisees, to seek out validation from him in Luke 18.
1) The rich young ruler's main concern was to "inherit eternal life " vs 18. He judged himself worthy because he believed he had been obeying all the laws.
2) He had been listening to Jesus's teachings and was convinced that he was a man of authority, though, he wasn't ready to accept the fact He could be the Messiah, so he approached Jesus in a condescending manner- as he was a pharisee and they believed themselves to be above everyone else. So, he sucked up to Jesus by calling Him "Good Master ". Jesus saw through him and responded in a way that means He was God, if Paul believed that He was good, and went on to poke holes in his legalistic beliefs- he believed he never committed adultery, but Jesus taught that to just look on a maiden lustfully already constituted a breaking of the law, so was bearing false witness, which they were notorious for, but wouldn't admit to, so he was indirectly stealing from the temple coffers in the name of doing business for God Galatians 1:14; as was not honoring their fathers and mothers in the name of bringing offerings to the temple etc. and finally, told him to get rid of the source of his pride: his wealth, and distribute to the poor, as they usually pretended to do to look good before the people. He wasn't ready to even exchange that to gain eternal life, which Jesus understood (and gave him time before answering his calling vs 22).
He began to follow Jesus from then onwards, persecuting Him just to get physical proof on Him as a fraud. I believe he was behind all the questions to get Jesus to break the laws- including paying taxes (Jesus was called the Son of David, David and his house have been tax exempt by King Saul, for slaying Goliath, by this they're negating His relationship with King David, hence, cannot be the Messiah, they even insult Him of being born of fornication, as Mary got pregnant before getting married John 8:41 etc.)
3) I believe he spearheaded the group that deceived Judas to betray Him, and those they bought to shout "crucify him " over and over again until Jesus was crucified on the cross. He really did persecute Jesus and by so doing, get to follow Him as other desciples, learning from His teachings all along, even sneaking behind to witness the last supper to confidently say he received it of the Lord
1 Corinthians 11:23, to make hin an Apostle born out of due time - long after his calling 1 Corinthians 15:8.
3) His anger made him turn his his back on his own life, and began to persecute everyone linked to Jesus, from Stephen up till the time he fell off his high horse- so to speak, and was forced to come to reality of who Jesus Christ really was- The Son if man(David), The Son of God, which he knew all along but his legalistic mind was resisting it: he finally called Jesus "Lord", though subconsciously, but he always knew He was Lord when he heard His voice again Acts 9:4-5.
After this, he became so overzealous enough to begin to let everyone know that "Jesus was the Son of God, and the Messiah" vs 20,22. He began to immediately experience persecution himself, which got him to Arabia, where he had ample time and opportunity to review all the proof he had collected while he was persecuting Jesus 2 Timothy 4:13. He could even have been the naked young man, who was used to entrap JesusChriston the night of His arrest. Mark 14:51-52. (That was why he could write with so much understanding of the Lord in all his epistles).
4) Philippians 3 was where he finally came to terms with the fact that all his wealth could not be exchanged for the knowledge of Christ and gaining eternal life- his all life pursuit Luke18:18! This came at a price though - he lost all his fortune, that he wasn't willing to give up at that time: Luke 18:18-30, calling them "dung." But now, forgetting all his past life and pressing towards the prize of the "high calling " of Jesus, as he now sees it!
That was why it was easy for the other desciples to extend to him the right hand of fellowship as the Apostle of the gentiles Galatians 2:9.
That was also why he could withstand the other desciples when they were preaching the law and circumcision together with the grace of God in Christ Jesus in Acts 15. Immediately after preaching in the synagogue that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, Acts 9:20-22, God sent Barnabas to help him fulfill his calling, and spread the gospel if salvation to both Jews and gentiles, especially the gentiles.
The gospel of the salvation of our souls is simply by grace through faith in the sacrificial death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the completed work of the cross that no one can add to or remove from by doing good or bad. The Holy Spirit was sent to guide, teach, interpret, and keep until the end, John 14:26. Thus, He quickenes the believers and takes them all up at rapture. Until then, we give ourselves to studying the scriptures to make ourselves approved unto God as workmen that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth-daily!
That was the reason why the Apostle loved his Jewish brethren so much that he wouldn't mind being accursed, as long as they can all (the 12 tribes), be saved! Romans 9:3!
That was the reason he endures so much beatings and maltreatment from the Jews, who really hated him, but he continued to concern himself with them, even took up collection of money for the Jewish belivers, even though he was sent to the gentiles-39 stripes 5 timed, got shipwrecked, got bitten by a venomous snake, but like the Duracell battery, he still kept going strong till the end! How stinky and painful and full of putrefying sores, his body must have been, yet he kept on going...
So he ran and finished his course and ensured that the outcast tribe of Benjamin, finally has a place in the body of Jesus Christ, and will sit with Him on the right hand of the throne of God, in heavenly places!
He made and left us all a legacy, so we can all make it. Thus, he is free from the blood of everyone who rejects so great a salvation story!
Paul thought the end was neigh... so... in this generation...? those here today shall not taste death before... Oops, off by over 2,000 years and counting.... and born of a woman would be at Most a demigod, as tho like Gilgamesh ect... and if he is a son of David: human... Oops
No, Paul did not think the "End" was neigh. That's what he wrote:
"Let no anyone out-deceive you by not one manner that it (the day of the Lord) has taken stand, unless the apostasy comes before and the human of the lawlessness (the same one in M24.15) is unveiled, the son of the whole-away-loosening…that you be not quickly shaken away from the thinking, but also not be dismayed neither through spirit, nor through word, nor THROUGH AN EPISTLE, as if (written) through us, as though the day of the LOrd has already taken in-stand.\ (as if near)."
The phrase "term is near" (not end) occurring only 3 times in the NT. We see it once in Matthew 26.18 and twice in the Unveiling (Revelation). This phrase occurs in Un1.3 where the second is found in Un22.10. Here, it is followed by the angel's instructions stating "DO NOT SEAL the words of THIS book-scrollet," a phrase foreign to the NT, which also isolates the prophecy to be speaking of only this one epistle not all the prophecy of the Writ.
James Tabor has somethings right and somethings not right. My understanding is that Paul is talking about the transformation that is happening within, much similar to the Eastern enlightenment. This is, your body is of Adam1 and the new transformation which is from the Source of Life, God, is in you and is Adam 2.
Fascinating concept: the first Adam takes while the second Adam (Jesus) gives all.
He quoted the 1st half of 1Cor15:22,> "As in Adam all die",and stopped ~why~ because it reads As in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. To much power and hope for this man so far. LORD guide us all and make yourself a reality to these men and all of us,I pray.
And a related point to ponder~
Seem like these following verses are avoided, skipped,and sometimes hidden by many
I'm looking for the truth of these verses~They are in the Bible,they have meaning, And everyone seems to avoid them...
Any Thoughts, anyone?? ALL=ALL
1Tim.2:4 ~Who will have "ALL" men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.
1Cor.15:22 ~As in Adam "ALL" die,even so in Christ shall "ALL" be made alive.
Rom.5:18 ~Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon "ALL" men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon "ALL" men unto justification of life.
1Tim.4:10 ~...because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of "ALL" men, specially those that believe.
John.17:1-2 ~ ...As thou hast given him power over "ALL" flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Luke 23:34 ~Then said Jesus,Father forgive them for they know not what they do.
1John.2:1-2 ...Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound,God forbid. I'm not looking for a pass on my sin. I'm trying to understand what I am supposed to say to people~the fear that some may run to sin if this is true and stated has not prevented God from having it in His word, and some people have turned away from God thinking they are beyond hope/salvation.
We can't ignore or erase these verses.
Any insights would be greatly appreciated.
2Cor.5:17-20, Col 1:18-20, 1Tim 2:3-6 & 4:9-11, Acts 3:21-26, Isa 19 & 29,Ezk 16,Rom.10:12-13, Rom.11:32,John.6:39 & 17:12 ect,ect....
Giving = He emptied Himself.
Also consequent to the oath, which Jonathan, the son of Saul, swore to David. (Jonathan entrapped David with his inordinate affection, and Saul persecuted Jesus, the Son of David with his hatred, but for the grace that sought and found him, for which he paid dearly, physically- he could very well have been the naked young man who entrapped Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane, in the wee hours of the night Mark 14:51-52- it's a generational issue, from Judges chapters 19-21, and dealt with in Christ Jesus, in the Apostle Paul).
The house of Benjamin became the enemy of the house of David, (as Paul also persecuted Jesus, the Son of David), consequently, the house of Saul was wiped out, but for the oath, it received grace through the house of Mephibosheth-Rehoboam- Bathsheba (Ahitophel, her grandfather)- Mordecai- Esther.
1 Samuel 20:14-17, 30-31.
The Spirit of God had departed from Saul 1:Samuel 16:14, so he no longer has anything to do with the God of Israel. This spirit began to work throughout his family, thus, Jonathan feared to die, and consequently sought to make an oath with David, because of the presence of God in Him, as the anointed king of Israel.
This same spirit was in Saul, who sought eternal life by his obedience to the law, which he as the Saul, the king of Israel had missed because of his disobedience and rebellion to the command of God- 1 Samuel 15; Luke 18-18-22.
I believe that just like the spirit of Elijah was upon John the Baptist, to finish his mission, so also the spirit of king Saul seeking to make up for his mistake, found grace in his descendant- Saul, or Paul of Tarsus. Philippians 3; Esther 2:5; 1 Chronicles 8:30-36; 9:38-39; Esther 2:5 (Haman, was the descendant of Agag, the descendant of Esau, Genesis 27:41; 36:12; Exodus 17:8; 1 Samuel 15:8; Numbers 24:7 who Saul didn’t kill as commanded).
Both Sauls eventual had to have a change of heart and vision - respectively, to be used by God and be restored to fellowship. 1 Samuel 10:9; Acts 9:8-14. Satan never received forgiveness. Isaiah 66:24; Revelation 19:20; 14:10-11; 20:10.
...this is in Jest, but does anyone else think that the "Dead/Being Arisen Guy" in the frontpiece art for this segment resembles the "Early '80's James Taylor"..?
I would love to have just a 15 min discussion with Dr. Tabor. I’m a huge fan of his work
ok, what would you talk to him about, Just want to know
I would love to have just a 15 min discussion with Paul🙌⭐️
@@noway2708 i would like to know for a fact who Yeshua was referring to as "the Father". This challenge comes due to only having the Aramaic Allaha or the Greek theos to reference. This ambiguity is the basis for MANY cult groups. So is there any smoking gun where Yeshua states the Father is or is not YHWH?
@@matthewalger4690 How are you going to know anything as a "fact" by speaking w Mr. Tabor when Mr. Tabor's analysis is chock full of cherry-picked verses and his own rampant conjecture and speculation?
That's the whole point, is it His views of the Bible or the authority of the scriptures themselves that is important? To deny certain books are not written by Paul but written in Paul's style, in order to prove an argument is a bit suspect. Holy Spirit is our teacher, I compare my views with what the Bible says, as guided by Holy Spirit, not the other way around, otherwise I will become proud, boasting in my knowledge, Paul tells us to 'Boast in the Lord!" After 40 years I have seen many fall due to pride!
BRILLIANT!!!
There is much discussion about Paul without deep knowledge of the Old Testament and the related texts. As a result, weird ideas come up about the meaning of Paul’s words.
Always remember that the Bible is addressed to the man of imagination and not to any mortal man. Blake said:
“It must be understood that the persons Moses and Abraham are not here meant, but are states signified by those names. The individuals being representatives (or visions) of those states as they were seen by mortal man in a series of divine revelations and recorded in the Bible.”
2:42 Just slips in "there's a lot lost in that translation" and quickly moves on 😂
वासांसि जीर्णानि यथा विहाय नवानि गृह्णाति नरोऽपराणि तथा शरीराणि विहाय जीर्णा न्यन्यानि संयाति नवानि देही
I like a lot of what he’s saying. I do think there’s an implied contrast in Philippians 2 with not just Adam, but with the serpent. The problem with the understanding of It not pointing to a pre-human Jesus is that there is also an even more clear and explicit contrast between “God’s form” and being in man’s. It literally says, “No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.”
And it’s kind of convenient that when he’s even more explicit that Jesus was made before everything in Colossians 1, it’s a fake. Yes, of course he was a man born of woman. That’s essential to the salvation of mankind. But how is it that he can redeem mankind if he was just a righteous descendant of Adam? There is almost no teaching more essential to Christianity than the idea that Jesus is God’s son. It’s in the gospels, the epistles, the revelation.
1: either a "mouth-peice," and God was either speaking on through Jesus Christ (just like how Bhunivelze was speaking on through Hope Esteim in Final Fantasty 13 Lightling Return's video game.)
James Tabor is a respected researcher and an awesome teacher. I have followed him for years, read his work and have benefitted from his tenacious search for a deep and scholarly understanding of God's Word and the people who carried it to us.
James tabor is a false teacher!! Read the scripture for yourself and you’ll see that he twist scriptures and lies on what it actually says
I enjoyed this, but I think it would be more useful if Derek took a more adversarial role.
2 Corinthians 12:1-4. 14 years ago, Paul would have met with the Apostle John and Daniel- Revelation 4:1; Revelation 10:1-7, when the shut prophecies were ready to be accomplished, which I believe did have something to do with the mystery of God which had been hidden before the foundation of the world. Deuteronomy 29:29; Romans 16:25-26; Colossians I:25-29; Psalm 25:14; Matthew 13:11.
🐛 Caterpillar to butterfly 🦋
That doesn’t work well. Without seeing the chrysalis process, you wouldn’t recognize the butterfly as the caterpillar. But Paul does claim to recognize his sighting as the same being that supposedly walked the earth.
But I learned, so thanks to both
In 1TIMOTHY 3:16 Paul writes to Timothy
1 Timothy 3:16
21st Century King James Version
16 And beyond controversy, great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
In Romans 8:3 Paul writes to the church in rome
Romans 8:3
21st Century King James Version
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, GOD, sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
Amen
Don't know if I agree with him but it is interesting.
On many occasions Jesus says my father's house he is telling us who his Father is
Does Dr. Tabor differentiate between the resurrected body of Christ seen by the disciples and others and the ascended body seen by Paul?
Cold case Christianity
False teache James tabor does everything to discount Jesus
Don’t be fooled
John. 14. 28 says it all without BS. ye heard that I said to you -- I go away, and I come unto you; if ye did love me, ye would have rejoiced that I said -- I go on to the Father, because my Father is greater than I.
The Gospel of Jesus was originally one book, written by Lazarus in consultation with the Apostles [John 21:24] and published soon after Jesus left them on their own. The religion was hijacked by Rome, the Gospel was broken up scrambled adulterated into a bunch of competing narratives. Later four of those adulterated gospels were canonized with falsely ascribed authorship and a Gnosticism cover-story. It was the finding of an original Gospel of Jesus scroll in Jerusalem that gained the Knights Templar power over the Church and their eventual undoing when the church finally retaliated against them Friday 13th.
@@termination9353 Well that's a bunch of nonsense. You're missing the historical context and ascribing conspiracies. Constantine didn't hijack councils and decide people's beliefs after hundreds of years of people believing. Where is this original gospel of Jesus you speak of?
@@newpersonal3762 You don't know from Constantine and history since you get only the sanitized version from them. Allowing the Church to convince you they represent Jesus while they pull off the most dastardly gold mongering deeds throughout history and you want to talk to me about "historical context"? You wouldn't know historical context if it bit you on the ass. Go look up torture inventions of the "Church". THERE is your "historical context" for you.
@@termination9353 There were established churches and hundreds of years of people having beliefs, along with traditions. Are you going to pretend the communities that received the gospel and preaching didn't care and some guy hijacked everything and they threw it away? You're missing a lot and there's no way he could hijack councils. Every book in the nt was completed in the first century. It was still a minority before he accepted whuch gets rid of allegations of a motive and the conspiracy you allege is without evidence.
@@newpersonal3762 yes pope leo
Tabor is OK im subbing
I have seen the light and felt the love. There is not one single doubt in my mind that what I experienced was real. If people can’t accept it , I understand and would’ve probably not believed it myself had it not happened directly to me
I've read some of Tabor's writings and a book he wrote on Jesus as Child, and the flight to Egypt to escape from Herod with his parents. I disagree with him however, on his position that Paul would deny the eternal divinity of Christ through time eternal. He should consult Genesis and Gospel of John 1, this proves the divinity of Jesus for all time and eternity.
0:36 So, buy throwing away some letters, you get things right. Reminds me of Marcion 😂😂😂
Exactly. "The books I don't like, that disagree with me, I don't count."
You likely are a fundie, so there's no reasoning with you. But for anyone here who is just getting into this on a scholarly basis, you should know that it is the overwhelming consensus that only 7 of the epistles were written by Paul.
1 Corinthians 9:22.
Although Paul was very zealous in keeping the law, but through the grace he received, he was able to show the abundance of this very grace in his ministry. Luke 18, Jesus Christ debunked all his theories about keeping the laws , by showing him that although he kept the letter of the law, yet he offended in the very essence of it. For example, he prided himself to have kept the laws in verse 20, but we know that the pharisees would often catch adulterers in the very act. How could they do this if they were not stalking or peeping? Then they go and bear witness so they could be judged and stoned etc. Paul did all this in order to appear holy and blameless concerning the law Philippians 3:6. He got rich by trading in the Jews religion Galatians 1:14, and became prideful of his ill-gotten wealth, and wouldn't even want to part with a penny Luke 18:23. But when he got to know the grace that bought him, he counted all his law keeping and pride and wealth as dung, because he could clearly see his own wretchedness despite his place in the society. He even recognized himself as being the chief recipient of the grace of God in Christ Jesus that saved him 1 Timothy 1:15-17.
Grace would do that to a person, for which the law has previously hoodwinked into living a life of constant condemnation and trying to cover each one up with another- to no avail. The law wasn't made to save, but to show the sinner his sinfulness and helplessness to do anything about it. Grace gets him under the fountain that washes sins away, gets him justified and the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit is imputed in him. His mind is renewed daily with the infilling of the Holy Spirit and by studying the scriptures. He has no more consciousness of sins but will be convicted by the Holy Spirit and be pardoned. He has a new life of God in Christ 1 John 5:11-12, and this life is what gets taken out and up to meet Jesus Christ in the air, gets his body changed to be like His, and gets to be presented faultless before the presence of God the Father in the heavenly places. Then, as one with the Head, the new creation called "Church " returns to rescue the remnants of Israel Zechariah 14.
I have a question. Good study by the way. Thank you!
If this physical body won’t inherit the kingdom of heaven and has to die and transform first, what was the case of Elijah taken up to the heavens? Did he die in the flesh first? Thank you!
thats a good question and have wondered this many times. Enoch also. Jesus also said flesh and blood does not enter the Kingdom. Maybe as Paul said that those who were alive at his return would be changed and Elijah and Enoch were changed in this way in order to enter heaven?
Try cold case Christianity it’s awesome
This guy keeps saying he thinks!! Wtf does that matter no factual evidence only opinion
Real cold case detective started atheist researching the history of Jesus with facts and evidence
COLD CASE CHRISTIANITY
COLD CASE CHRISTIANITY
check it out for a real time line of historical evidence pointing to Jesus being who he says he is
With references to non Bible writings about Jesus from the time of Jesus
@Tabor Saul/Paul answers your greatest question. If one can swallow that Jesus did it...why can't I?
So I’m trying to figure out if Derek is atheist or Gnostic.
21:30 Cosmos transformed - "groaning" as the great mill turns from the age of Ares to the new age of Pisces. - The new age of the world.
I just read the verses. They say that Jesus was in very nature God and yet set that reality aside to become human.
The original greak term usedis "morphe" which does not mean nature (substance) but "form" or "appearance".
The arguing based on very old texts edited in a very old language is at any rate a process of hypothetical interpretations using actual ideological apparatus projected into those texts.
Paul says only, "By grace are we saved through faith..." Grace only comes from God; so unless god deigns to give you grace even your faith won't save you? That is circular logical cryptic gibberish of the highest order.
Hi
The ‘ Pre incarnation Son of God’ is in Psalm 110 David says ‘ YHWH SAID TO ADONI SIT THOUGH AT MY RIGHT HAND TILL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOTSTOOL’ as further extrapolated in the book of Hebrews WHICH IS WRITTEN BY PAUL!
Shalom to us only in Christ Yeshua returning soon to reign over the world government from Jerusalem.
If you are correct about the butterfly then I submit that a non-enlightened human larval saved the caterpillar, then resurrected it as a butterfly.
Paul believed in the pre-existence of Christ. A Jewish idea that had already been found in the parables of Enoch written before the emergence of Christianity or in 4 Ezra. 3 times Paul mentions that Jesus was pre-existent. And this is an idea that is later taken up by the Deutero-Pauline epistles and by the epistle to the Hebrews. Obviously this is a very awkward concept regarding the historicity of Jesus since the earliest texts we have present Jesus as a pre-existent being and a world-creating agent with YHWH, not as a Jewish rabbi. But any attempt to deny this Pauline concept will fail. Even if the historicists (who try by all means to present Jesus as a simple Jew) will not like it.
Now this was not a drama that took place in the secular world. The evangelist is telling the truth, however, for being in the state of Jesus Christ he knew he was the immortal being who was before Abraham. He knew he was God himself, the author of the play called life. This truth every child born of woman will know from experience.
Let us now turn to the Book of Galatians, which is the earliest book of the New Testament. The thirteen letters of Paul were written, distributed, practiced, and called the gospel at least twenty years before the gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were written. In it, Paul speaks of “my gospel,” saying:
I did not receive it from a man, nor was I taught it, it came by revelation of Jesus Christ.”
Then he tells this story:
“Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and one by a free woman. The son of the slave was born according to the flesh, the son of the free woman by the promise. This is an allegory: these two women are two covenants. The one who bears the child by promise is Jerusalem from above.” This is the state called Sarah.
Do you think Paul actually met with James or Peter or anyone else 'of repute' after his 'conversion' experience to confirm his 'gospel?' Do you think they actually did? What do you think happened in his mind that eventually led to friction with the Jewish Christians?
He said he did Peter in Galatians 2, for example. But not really Jesus.
interesting speculation. James tabor is obviously very learned
Sounds like Paul had an outer body experience to me. I have had one by accident and Paul's experience sounds so similar. This theory has explanatory power.
That's not a theory, or even an hypothesis. It's an assertion lacking any evidence, and is explanatory of nothing.
I read somewhere that his experience matches certain types of epileptic seizure the fall, the altered state of consciousness (terror, voices, sense of the sublime, sense of disembodiment, effected speech. It’s contested but an interesting observation
@@ObservantHistorian Your rebuttal sounds like the opinion of a blind person who was told about sight. How can you prove to him it exists? Thanks for your input though. I would argue that Paul's words are evidence and the measuring stick is experience (if you have ever had an OBE) or reports from others.
@@scottharrison812 that may have been the case. I had malaria and I was hallucinating. After the recovery the hallucinations stopped and were easily identified as not real. However, seizure, physical exhaustion, drugs,...are all ways to induce an OBE. However I'm not sure of the cause or the reaction. It just seems so damn similar to my OBE.
@@ObservantHistorian Thanks for the lesson in Science. My assertion is that the OBE may be the source of mystical experience which drives the formation of new religious ideas. Will you admit the OBE is a real Phenomenon?
The apostles never believed Jesus preexisted. Paul never said Jesus was God or anything of that sort, that Ideal came later in the fourth century and was added to the concept of the trinity after the council of Nicaea.
@Ptsd read any letter from Paul, the salutation and see what he says Jesus is and the Father is.
@@fcastellanos57yes
Paul clearly states that Jesus gave up his angelic spirit form in order to become a human. Philippians 2:7.
Was the historical Jesus in any way convinced that he or anything about him had in some sense been preexistent? Mark 10:40, if authentic, suggest he was.
Sounds alot like vedanta and yogi philosophy to me. Not surprised.
2 possibilities. Either he did or he didn't.
2 possible descriptions to what this means
Yes, we are born as Adam 1, then when we crucify our carnal flesh, we are raised as a new man, last Adam. This happens in this life. We are born again.
We are born spiritually alive UNTIL we sin after the age of accountability. Thats why we must be born again. Resurrection is used because we died the 1st time when we sinned. We then must be regenerated into the new creation the last Adam, the new spiritual man. Then 2nd death has no power over us.
Ohh you talking about Paul love it and Galatian Timothy now you talking about deepest water
The Gospel of Jesus was originally one book, written by Lazarus in consultation with the Apostles [John 21:24] and published soon after Jesus left them on their own. The religion was hijacked by Rome, the Gospel was broken up scrambled adulterated into a bunch of competing narratives. Later four of those adulterated gospels were canonized with falsely ascribed authorship and a Gnosticism cover-story. It was the finding of an original Gospel of Jesus scroll in Jerusalem that gained the Knights Templar power over the Church and their eventual undoing when the church finally retaliated against them Friday 13th.
They went to Switzerland and became the Hospitalers...then Freemasons who are ruling us now
In the Biblical narrative if God warned Adam and Eve not to do something and they did it (which would mean that was always in the realm of possible choices) did God ever teach them about how to redeem oneself after sinning? Jesus can’t be the answer since he arrives rather late in the history of humanity. How did Adam and all of the people after him up until the arrival of Jesus who is supposed to be the sacrifice and wage for sin, get redemption after sinning? Common sense tells me if God created us with the capacity to sin, He will teach us how to ameliorate that sin. As far as I know sincerely seeking repentance for the sin and asking God’s forgiveness is how sins are removed. Even if you accept Christian narrative about Jesus, don’t you still have to ask God’s forgiveness if you sin?
Were Adam and Eve always in the flesh in heaven? If not and they only acquired flesh through being on the Earth, how is death a punishment for sin since we all die in the flesh but our spirit does not? If Jesus has already been the sacrifice, then why are we still here and why do we still sin? What is the purpose of life?
James Tabor is brilliant 👏👏👊🙏
Cold case Christianity if you like this you’ll love it
clairaudient
I wonder if women are not talked about much could be due to cultural differences. From everything I have read about the period is that women were not considered adults in the eyes of the law. Could female followers be referred to as men to show their equality? I know probably a stupid question but I have often wondered.
I havent watched the vid yet but wanted to say that not only didnt Paul think Jesus was a pre-existent divine being, neither did any other apostle nor Jesus himself.
The trinity doctrine and its variants is the main proponent to this which makes people read their doctrines into the texts and confuses them as to what is actually being said in versus like John 1:1, John 8:58, John 20:28...etc
Just as the disciples were confused about Jesus saying he is the bread of life which descended from heaven and this bread is his flesh, the same happens today. People do not understand what hes talking about and assume (because of man made doctrines) the he is saying he existed in heaven as a divine being then came down and was re-incarnated as a man.
Truth is the lord Jesus is 100% man and the God and Father of the Lord Jesus is not a trinity, nor is Jesus God. Nowhere in scripture is this thought even on the minds or lips of anyone.
The trinity doctrine has done more damage to the way of Jesus then any other lie that has infiltrated the church, and there are MANY
No way, Paul most definitly believed that Jesus pre existed.
As Kant says, Jesus chose to live a horrific existence even unto the most ignominious death.
How is the death of Jesus the most ignominious? There are countless thousands of WWII partisans (just to take one of thousands of historical periods where similar things are true) who withstood days of torture, far worse and longer than that of Jesus, who still never gave up their comrades, and who died slow horrible deaths without the surety of getting back up in a few days as though they'd just been in a coma. Human sacrifice for religious reasons was a widespread practice - that of Jesus was neither unique nor unusual. Nor was it any more effective than any other human sacrifice.
The difference is that when Christ became our sacrifice/Passover, it gave us the keys to the first resurrection.
Now I’m sure you neither believe nor understand the truth now, but when you breathe your last breath, and we all have to when life in the flesh body ends, you can explain your reservations to him.
@@ObservantHistorian they were forced into that Jesus took it on
@@jeremyking9185 😂
indeed
Jesus Said to John he had to leave so his father could send the comforter in his father's name Paul me
What?
Jesus said." Before Abraham came to be I am."
Wrong ! I was
He claiming that he was before abraham
Not god , that dosent make sense ,
And the 2nd possibility is that Jesus meant what he said that "he," (as a "man,") "made man."
Jesus Christ said to Jesse Duplantis: according to (Close Encounter's of the God Kind Part 4 video.) 'The day my (his not God's that would mean) creation Adam fell.'
The simulation hypothesis with God as architect and Yeshua as prime contractor.
The simulation is full of Avatars controlled by the Spirits.
The Gospel of Jesus was originally one book, written by Lazarus in consultation with the Apostles [John 21:24] and published soon after Jesus left them on their own. The religion was hijacked by Rome, the Gospel was broken up scrambled adulterated into a bunch of competing narratives. Later four of those adulterated gospels were canonized with falsely ascribed authorship and a Gnosticism cover-story. It was the finding of an original Gospel of Jesus scroll in Jerusalem that gained the Knights Templar power over the Church and their eventual undoing when the church finally retaliated against them Friday 13th.
This is great study 😍
Too many ads! Sorry, sb had to say it.
Wisdom Theology? Wisdom was in the beginning with God, wisdom being Gods wise interaction with his creation and his wise instruction for them. His Wisdom is associated with his word, interchangeable. And so, God's word and wisdom took flesh, ie became embodied in/by the man Christ Jesus. I think this idea is persuasive and fits the 1st century context the New Testament was written in. Jesus is what wisdom/word became, God's wisdom and word were in the beginning, and now they have come to us in and through a man, God's wise interaction with his word, his very self expression was shown in Jesus, God was IN Jesus reconciling himself with the world.
Those are the 2 meanings to what that would be
Yes, Paul thought Jesus was “the Lord”, i.e. God.
I was raised from the dead in 2016.
The NT is a spiritual allegory about the LIGHT of Gen. 1:3 rising within us when we believe and obey the FATHER. The light that overcomes the darkness, the light that gives life to our dead spirit that was caused the 1st time we sinned after the age of accountability.
The LIGHT was personified in the gospels. (Along with some corruptions by Rome).
Then you did not die. Once you die you cannot be reanimated. Most likely you had an illusory experience such as a hallucination. A sensory perception (such as a visual image or a sound) that occurs in the absence of an actual external stimulus and usually arises from neurological disturbance or in response to drugs.
@@mnamhie LOL. I'm not talking about a physical death. Nor is the NT.
@@jdaze1 Your “spiritual” resurrection is also an illusion. You straightened up and decided to fly straight and somehow that means God? I’m certainly glad you’re in a much better place now and happier in your life but that is not a proof of God. And many outside of your Christian faith have experienced the same thing and they don’t attribute their metamorphosis to Jesus or the Holy Spirit. People like you are so desperate to believe in something even without adequate evidence to do so. Why? Fear. You are fearful. Your new found faith comforts you but faith is not a pathway to knowledge and wisdom.
John 17 3.
@@brenosantana1458
Obadiah 1:21
James 5:20
Rev. 3:12
Rev. 3:9
Revelation 3:21
Revelation 21:7.
Romans says that God is upset because we gave credit to the creation rather than the creator so the devil attacked creation first in order to discredit who the creator was in the form of the nepalim. And that brought about a cleansing to flood two baptize. then he attacked the survivors of the flood and their families at the Tower attempting to sway at the very beginning the effort to repair humanity. Then he suppresses the Jews in Egypt because they would be the representatives of God and then ultimately he attacked and killed the very last servant sent by the Father his son evidenced in the parable of the vineyard and they chose to kill him too so The plan is to deceive through oversaturation there are too many things to choose from to ever know what the truth really is That's why everything is granted on faith and not on works because no man can boast that they know because they don't know God and his wisdom allowed this to take 6 to 10,000 years to develop so that no one man would ever say that he lived through it all and could understand it completely History is written by the victors so a lot of things have been obfuscated pushed to the side forgotten about yet somehow God speaks in the heart of people and it all seems to make sense to those who have the spirit so believe what you want to believe God tells the truth in your heart and it says that even if you didn't have the Bible that the very creation itself is your condemnation because you have no excuse this world did not create itself
Marks 16 -20 omits resurections
He can resurrect a body from the dust of the earth the same way he made Adam from the dust of the earth. Adam started out immortal.
He could have had a perfected immortal body except for the wounds so he could show the disciples. Then when he ascends into heaven his body is made glorious.
Romans 8: 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
The way to explain what Paul thought and believed about Jesus is best understood by the connection he did to his none Jewish version of messiah - Christ.
Paul thought of Jesus and Christ as two separated beings, but then he could use them together - Jesus Christ or Christ Jesus.
Paul did only need the earthly Jesus (the last Adam) to die, so he could get rid of the old man - Adam.
Paul then thought of a heavenly figure being the Christ, i.e. a personified Anointing, as he sad: “the Lord is the Spirit”.
Paul was connected with the earthly Jesus, to die and to be buried with him, then to be resurrected, glorified and seated with the heavenly Christ.
Pauls “Evengelio”-message starts with the cross, meaning: to get rid of Adam in the earthly Jesus - and move over to a heavenly Christ figure - the personified Anointing - Gods mystery.
I'm looking for the truth of these verses~They are in the Bible,they have meaning, And everyone seems to avoid them...
Any Thoughts, anyone?? ALL=ALL
1Tim.2:4 ~Who will have "ALL" men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.
1Cor.15:22 ~As in Adam "ALL" die,even so in Christ shall "ALL" be made alive.
Rom.5:18 ~Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon "ALL" men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon "ALL" men unto justification of life.
1Tim.4:10 ~...because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of "ALL" men, specially those that believe.
John.17:1-2 ~ ...As thou hast given him power over "ALL" flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Luke 23:34 ~Then said Jesus,Father forgive them for they know not what they do.
1John.2:1-2 ...Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound,God forbid. I'm not looking for a pass on my sin. I'm trying to understand what I am supposed to say to people~the fear that some may run to sin if this is true and stated has not prevented God from having it in His word, and some people have turned away from God thinking they are beyond hope/salvation.
We can't ignore or erase these verses.
Any insights would be greatly appreciated.
2Cor.5:17-20, Col 1:18-20, 1Tim 2:3-6 & 4:9-11, Acts 3:21-26, Isa 19 & 29,Ezk 16,Rom.10:12-13, Rom.11:32,John.6:39 & 17:12 ect,ect....
1st time here,seems sincere and thoughtful so far...I'm listening on hopefully...
Left a long message above (sorry for the many words) ~it's a real question ~ not trolling~Any replies/ideas greatly appreciated and prayerfully considred~Thank You for your time...
Watched the rest of this discussion ~ did not hold up to the beginning 10min.~HE appears to be reading a different account then I read. LORD make yourself real to us all and guide us all into the Truth, I pray. God is more able,capable, and more active in our lives then these two believe or present~ I would not take any advice from these two.
The exegesis ignores the Jewishness of Paul and his Jewish heritage and rather emphasizes the Greco Roman environment. How did a first century orthodox Jew understand anastasis? Bodily resurrection.
But @jamestabor doesn’t Paul (in one of the authentic Pauline epistles) say that through Christ all things were made? I.e. that Jesus was god’s agent of creation and was therefore a preexisting being / Logos?
And doesn’t Paul call him the logos or was that just in John?
The first created being
Logos dos not equal to Jesus in John 1 1, Jesus is not the creator, Isaiah 44 24. Psalm 33 6.
@@brenosantana1458ld be incorrect. John 1:1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος = En arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton Theon kai Theos en ho logos.
En means was with. However, En is the 3rd person singular imperfect of the verb Eimi, which means to be present with, I am, I exist. The imperfect is a verb form that combines past tense (reference to a past time) and the imperfective aspect (reference to a continuing or repeated event or state). It means was with and continuing to be with. Eimi is used throughout the New Testament to refer to the “I AM” nature of Christ. Every “I AM” statement of Christ is ego eimi, i.e., John 8:58. In John 1:1 the use of en, the imperfect of eimi, refers to Christ being the I AM Word. En ho logos literally word for word translates I AM the Word. En ho logos quite literally grammatically stresses is and was the Word, and continues to be the Word. Pros is a preposition that points towards, IS. Used with en it translates IS GOD, was God, continues to BE GOD. The logos or I Am Word is God, was God, continues to be God.
John 1:3 does in fact state Christ is the creator, context is everything. πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν panta di autou egeneto kai choris autou egeneto oude hen ho gegonen, γίνομαι ginomai is the root of gegonen/egeneto and means to create, to bring into existence something from nothing. χωρίς choris is an adverb apart from, without Him nothing would have been made. αὐτοῦ or him is a personal possessive masculine pronoun which points back to the subject λόγος logos (nominative singular masculine NOUN) or Word in John 1:1. In other words, the greek grammar of John 1:1-3 is emphatic that the Word is God, the Word is I AM, and the Word is the creator of all things.
Then go on down to John 1:14 and John specifically tells us who this Word is (KJV) “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” Beginning phrase: Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο, kai ho logos sarx egeneto….and the Word, same as John 1:1, masculine nominative noun logos, was made or created, egeneto, flesh, sarx. “Only begotten” = μονογενοῦς monogenous = one of a kind, unique, ONLY, never repeated. Only found 9 times throughout the NT and always used to mean “only” one. It does NOT mean first created being. It means the ONLY God who at a specific appointed time took on flesh to be the Savior of mankind, the one and only Savior. If the “Word” is not referring to Christ, when did the Father become flesh?
don’t forget Isaiah 44:6 (KJV) “Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his REDEEMER the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” Compare to Revelation 1:8 where Jesus says, (KJV) “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” And John 8:58 (KJV) “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” Compare that to Exodus 3:14 (KJV) “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.” The Redeemer in Isaiah 44:24 is Christ, the anointed one, the promised Messiah, the I AM, almighty God, the first and the last, who was, and is, and always will be. The creator Lord in Isaiah 44:24 is identified in Isaiah 44:6 and further clarified by Christ Himself.
Psalm 33:6….Jesus IS the LORD per His “I AM” statements. Isaiah 9:1-2, he told us the Messiah would come from Galilee. Go to verses 6-7 of Isaiah 9 and Isaiah told you the Messiah would be Almighty God, the everlasting Father. Earlier in Isaiah 7:14 (KJV) “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” Immanuel = עִמָּנוּאֵל = God is with us, God is now among us.
@@shereewolfe5337 I agree that he says ego eimi sometimes, but this is a common expression, see for example in John 9 9. In John 4 25 26, Jesus says that he is the messiah by ego eimi. If the argument is that ego eimi is a reference to the passage of exodus.
The argument that the passage means literally I am the word in John 1 1, in connection to Jesus being the word, is not the case, it is not eimi, if we translate by the present it loses the past connection in English, and there is nothing in John 1 1 that identify Jesus with the word, in the contrary, the text says that the word was God, so was not Jesus by definition.
If we don't see Jesus being the word in John 1 1, a point that is not the case based upon the text itself, we don't need to think that Jesus is the creator, the text says that all through it (the word) came into being, in a translation to English.
About the eyeneto translation, it think, right now, that is not to create or bring into existence something from nothing in all the passages, for example, John 2 1 and John 1 28. I don't know if we can understand in this definition that you put it forward, so I don't translate this way because of other usages.
αὐτοῦ is masculine, but I translated above as it, because of the English, word in English is not masculine. In portuguese, for example, the "palavra" is feminine.
This capital lettering of word I think is not needed. ην is not even in the first person, so I would not see as I am. I think that God created through the word like in John 1 3 and psalm 33 6.
καὶ ἐκάλεσεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ φῶς ἡμέραν καὶ τὸ σκότος ἐκάλεσεν νύκτα καὶ ἐγένετο ἑσπέρα καὶ ἐγένετο πρωί ἡμέρα μία
Take a look about this eyeneto usage.
Only begotten is a common translation, the point is that this son is the only one, the word implies that he is not a eternal preexisting being, yes. See Luke 7 12. The man was the only born of that woman. If we want to be literal, the word is from only and the other that you interpreted as having a creation meaning, yinome, I use the "modern" pronunciation, as I looked, can you help me if this is right or if the other word is not the one that is based upon genesis? In both cases he is not God and not eternal.
I think that the word of God eyeneto flesh like the text says, the word tabernacled among them, not that God has become flesh and this man is called Jesus making Jesus the father in human form somehow. By the context of John, the father was in Jesus and the father is greater than Jesus, so I don't think the way to see is that Jesus is God.
You quoted Isaiah, I see this text as saying that only the father is God and no one else, no one besides him, this is the ideia of this text and many other passages in Isaiah. The tetragrammaton is the name of the father, the God of Jesus, the God of the Jews, John 17 3. If we go by this, we can try to think the other passages.
Based upon the understanding in Isaiah, this passage in revelation is not about Jesus, Jesus is not the all powerful and there is a variant that says Lord God in this verse, in this case is more evidence, I don't know which is the original reading. Also in the book, sometimes does not clearly define who is speaking. Test the book of revelation.
About the ego eimi and exodus, I replied before. it is not Jesus referring to be God, it is possible to understand what he meant by ego eimi in the context. Also I heard that is not I am that I am in exodus but I will be, I don't know Hebrew that well to say.
In Isaiah 44 24, it is used the tetragrammaton, so is not Jesus.
I don't know if this prophecy is about Jesus or Hekeziah. In both cases the word El is not to be interpreted as the man being God, for example, Moses was called elohim, but he is not God. The father is in a human context.
About Isaiah 7, it is a human context too. If a man is called Immanuel, he is not God himself. I don't think that the man is God for God be with us, if this is the interpretation.
Ah yes - this is the vaunted "Knossos" - the outpouring of spirit, "humble unto death - even death on a cross". Philipians 2 is the Fulcrum upon which all of Christianity turns.
The Chris Angel of his time
Your state of existance will Ascend to a higher dimension in the UCC universal cosmic consciousness or Kingdom of God. God Mind. Perhaps the 5th dimension. And beyond.
This is true Bible study-exegesis-free from apologetics IMO. It’s “Let’s talk about what Paul might have been thinking in his 7 undisputed letters”. Whether or not Paul is lying, suffering from psychosis, or describing a mystical experience- here’s what he says. Draw your own conclusions.
I dispute those letters. Paul is a fraud who the Apostles did not beleive his conversion story and all Epistles are counterfeits of the Roman Catholic Church - The Gospel of Jesus was originally one book, written by Lazarus in consultation with the Apostles [John 21:24] and published soon after Jesus left them on their own. The religion was hijacked by Rome, the Gospel was broken up scrambled adulterated into a bunch of competing narratives. Later four of those adulterated gospels were canonized with falsely ascribed authorship and a Gnosticism cover-story. It was the finding of an original Gospel of Jesus scroll in Jerusalem that gained the Knights Templar power over the Church and their eventual undoing when the church finally retaliated against them Friday 13th.
How do 2 blind men follow Jesus? How does a deaf man hear Jesus? Why use seven brothers in a question when a two-brothers example would have made the same point? What did Jesus write in the dust with his finger? What was Mary Magdalene's "special part that would not be taken from her"? Why does it say that the "disciple whom Jesus' loved outran Peter? Why did the people rumor that the disciple whom Jesus loved could never die? What was the "word" the centurion's servants were trying to get Jesus to reveal to them that had healing powers? What did Jesus mean by use of the term 'cockcrowing'? What "sign" were the Pharisees looking for from Jesus if miracle healing did not count? When the Pharisees spoke of "less the second mistake be worse than the first" what 'mistake' are they talking about? What made Mary Magdalene out to be a sinner? When the angel asked, "Why seek ye the living from among the dead?", who were the "dead" the angel was referring to? Since book of Acts shows apostle John and Mark to be the same person, how then did we end up with two distinct gospels from the same author? How can two sisters both be named Mary? What is the meaning of the term 'quicken'? How can the narrative read that Jesus performed "many miracles" in-between the first and second miracle? Why is a genealogy divided by fourteen generations?
If Paul is right about anything, he is according to your estimation; right on his belief that Adam is the one who the fulfillment of GOD'S gift of free will was delivered through.
Adam used the gift to Express his GOD given rights to the freedom of Choice, when he accepted the " forbidden Fruit of the tree of good and evil " from his wife Eve, who is also from Adams own flesh and bone.
Bless you.
What exists in any moment of time, also preexists that moment and explains the belief in an after life. Time, however persistent is merely an illusion, said Albert Einstein. So Jesus came from Heaven , a synonym for Eternity , meaning everything that does play out in time as an event, comes forth from "Central Casting" if we understand God as the Divine Playwright. God is not a scientist, God is a collective mysticism of behavior rooted in a core enigma, where "God" is not he Name of God, but the title of an IDEA about Heaven as an Eternal Steady State Matter, with a behavioral condition of being ALIVE, then taking all things possible to ever be, out of a single idea of one moment , a single idea of time as an Eternity , where if nothing moves, there is no passing of time, and so Eternity is not different than a instant or one moment of time, where the crux is that for that moment , nothing is moving , all is absolutely still. The point of stillness before the world began in motion, and time moved, and the point of stillness of what is after the world has ended, put back to back like bookends on a shelf, amount to instantaneous absence of motion , it all can be the same as a wink of the eye in measure. So if Jesus appeared in any appointed time, he is yet attached to Eternity and that is the same as one instant, in how that would be measured. Jesus always existed, just as all things are never knew , they are signals or signs of something else existing causing those peculiar things and events to be observed. Jesus is of God as is the world came forth from God, and nothing exists except God. But the nature of God divides to a Majesty of Reason, which needs no materialism to project it , but that out of this Mystery, all things conserved of God , projects out. Jesus was the sire of the Father by the Spirit, , and these Persons of God, are in the substance of God, to wit the substance of God has no limit and is a possessive collective noun subject and a verb. If anything lives, that is GOD according to the VERB that God is a verb meaning 'LIVING". Jesus lived ,died and rose from the dead to enter the GLORY , that means Jesus is God, because Jesus is finished with the Law of DEEDS, and the GLORY is the FINISH of the LAW that brings all things back together to REST IN GOD. IN PEACE. Jesus is absolutely God. What you are failing about, is you do not know the meaning of God.