Outstanding work by that crew (except for the aforementioned Hallion safe-like call) and outstanding from you, tmac. The excellent breakdown is always appreciated.
Great review here. We had a nice timing play last month in summer college ball. (3man crew) R2 & R3 1 Out, fly ball to shallow right/center. R3 and R2 tagging up. For some reason R2 decides to go back to second when F8 throws to the cutoff man, they throw to 2nd where U1 bangs out R2. R3 was taking his sweet time getting home. PU does the same here, calls it off nice and big. Of course the coach comes out to argue.
Similar situation that was the prelude to Bill Mazeroski's World Series winning home run in 1960. In the top of the ninth with the Yankees trailing 9-8 and runners at the corners with one out, Yogi Berra hit a sharp grounder right down the first base line. 1B Rocky Nelson stepped on the bag for the second out, and Mickey Mantle (the runner at first) was aware enough to see that the force at second base was off, and he was able to dive back into the bag at first while Gil McDougal scored to tie the game at 9. And we all know what happened after that.
I had two separate hs games in one day at two different fields. Both had one out timing plays with R1 and R3 and catches by the right fielders. Both games the runner on third scored before the appeal back into 1B. Both times the defensive coach came out to argue that the run shouldn't have scored because the third out was at 1B. Had to explain the out was a timing play and not a force out. Still had one of the coaches protest. His team lost a conference game for the first time in 3 years that day because of that run scoring.
I like the simplicity of your explanation, pretty much if the 3rd out of the inning isn’t a force out, then it’s a timing play. The plays that trip me up are the appeals on missed touches and not tagging up when you have 1 or 2 outs, R3 scores but B1 missed 1st on the round to second and R2 failed to tag up
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here, but if there is a catch in right field for O2, and then a throw into 1B for O3, then isn't that O3 a force out?
@@Pickledfeet165 I figured since he would be forced BACK to the base it would still count as a force. I didn't know a runner from 3B could score in this instance if they beat the throw back to 1B.
@@Smithr1989 Force plays are specifically plays on runners who are forced to ADVANCE by the batter becoming a runner. When the batter has been retired, there can no longer be a force play. The fact that you can just step on the base while holding the ball to get a runner who hasn't tagged up doesn't make it a force. That is just an approved way of making the appeal. The runner scoring (or not) is still based on the timing of the play.
here's an idea. how about the runner coming home HUSTLE and RUN without looking at the play at second base and thereby making this a non-issue. just sayin'...
I had a game years ago by myself. R1, R2, 1 out. BR hits a ground ball to F3 and is put out (2out). R1 gets in a rundown after hearing my out call on BR and R2 rounds 3rd base. R1 is tagged out and before I make my out call, I look at home base to determine whether or not the run scored. R2 failed to reach home base before the tag. Hence my call is “Runner is out, no run scores” and wave off the run. Naturally I hear screaming from the offense, so the manager comes out to ask me why the run fails to score, and my explanation satisfied him.
EXCELLENT DISCOURSE ABOUT U2 POINTING AT THE MOMENT OF TAG FOR TIMING PURPOSES. U2 CAN NOT BANG THE RUNNER GOING INTO SECOND UNTIL POSSESSION IS DETERMINED BY THE 2ND BASEMEN....EXCELLENT INSTRUCTION!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe the signal should change. What about crossing your arms above your head like an X? Is that already used for something? If I was there, and I saw the umpire make that motion after review, I would have thought he was saying the runner at second was "safe." My baseball knowledge is pretty basic, so that's my problem. However, the similarity between the motions doesn't seem to be doing anyone a favor. Thanks for the informative video, keep it up.
Nah, that signal has "social justice" meanings, and the Woke Warriors of America would then accuse MLB of "cultural appropriation." Just keep the "wave off" above the shoulders, and everything is fine. How about on replays that where the decision is to "wave off, or not to wave off," the umpires signal with hands at face level, palms out, and then going into either a "thumbs up" or a "thumbs down?" It would be just a little touch of the Roman Colosseum.
Run doesn’t score on third out if third out is the result of a force play. So they’re challenging the timing of it. Looked close enough from vids that they wanted to challenge whether the run scored before the tag. Remember teams may think the out is made on the call (wrong) rather than when the tag was applied (correct).
@@jackstraw3934 OK, so because they got him at first, it's not a force at second anymore so they tag him, which makes it a timed play whether the run gets in before the tag. Thanks.
After the replay he confirmed the waive off of the run. “Waive off” is arms above head, “safe” is arms parallel. I think he got a little lazy on the second one, that’s all.
Outstanding work by that crew (except for the aforementioned Hallion safe-like call) and outstanding from you, tmac. The excellent breakdown is always appreciated.
Thanks For watching!
Great review here. We had a nice timing play last month in summer college ball. (3man crew) R2 & R3 1 Out, fly ball to shallow right/center. R3 and R2 tagging up. For some reason R2 decides to go back to second when F8 throws to the cutoff man, they throw to 2nd where U1 bangs out R2. R3 was taking his sweet time getting home. PU does the same here, calls it off nice and big. Of course the coach comes out to argue.
Excellent video, I just love it. It has been very instructive and enlighting. Keep those plays rolling
Thanks, Plenty more where that came from!!
Similar situation that was the prelude to Bill Mazeroski's World Series winning home run in 1960. In the top of the ninth with the Yankees trailing 9-8 and runners at the corners with one out, Yogi Berra hit a sharp grounder right down the first base line. 1B Rocky Nelson stepped on the bag for the second out, and Mickey Mantle (the runner at first) was aware enough to see that the force at second base was off, and he was able to dive back into the bag at first while Gil McDougal scored to tie the game at 9.
And we all know what happened after that.
Time plays are tough with a 2 man crew and the plate umpire is involved at 3rd.
I had two separate hs games in one day at two different fields. Both had one out timing plays with R1 and R3 and catches by the right fielders. Both games the runner on third scored before the appeal back into 1B. Both times the defensive coach came out to argue that the run shouldn't have scored because the third out was at 1B. Had to explain the out was a timing play and not a force out. Still had one of the coaches protest. His team lost a conference game for the first time in 3 years that day because of that run scoring.
I like the simplicity of your explanation, pretty much if the 3rd out of the inning isn’t a force out, then it’s a timing play.
The plays that trip me up are the appeals on missed touches and not tagging up when you have 1 or 2 outs, R3 scores but B1 missed 1st on the round to second and R2 failed to tag up
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here, but if there is a catch in right field for O2, and then a throw into 1B for O3, then isn't that O3 a force out?
Ryan Smith that’s a timing play not a force out.
The runner is not being forced to advance therefore not a force out
@@Pickledfeet165 I figured since he would be forced BACK to the base it would still count as a force. I didn't know a runner from 3B could score in this instance if they beat the throw back to 1B.
@@Smithr1989 Force plays are specifically plays on runners who are forced to ADVANCE by the batter becoming a runner. When the batter has been retired, there can no longer be a force play.
The fact that you can just step on the base while holding the ball to get a runner who hasn't tagged up doesn't make it a force. That is just an approved way of making the appeal. The runner scoring (or not) is still based on the timing of the play.
here's an idea. how about the runner coming home HUSTLE and RUN without looking at the play at second base and thereby making this a non-issue. just sayin'...
I had a game years ago by myself. R1, R2, 1 out. BR hits a ground ball to F3 and is put out (2out). R1 gets in a rundown after hearing my out call on BR and R2 rounds 3rd base. R1 is tagged out and before I make my out call, I look at home base to determine whether or not the run scored. R2 failed to reach home base before the tag. Hence my call is “Runner is out, no run scores” and wave off the run. Naturally I hear screaming from the offense, so the manager comes out to ask me why the run fails to score, and my explanation satisfied him.
EXCELLENT DISCOURSE ABOUT U2 POINTING AT THE MOMENT OF TAG FOR TIMING PURPOSES. U2 CAN NOT BANG THE RUNNER GOING INTO SECOND UNTIL POSSESSION IS DETERMINED BY THE 2ND BASEMEN....EXCELLENT INSTRUCTION!!!!!!!!!!
no shouting in the library...
@@alexchavez3383 I wonder if he graduated high school.
Maybe the signal should change. What about crossing your arms above your head like an X? Is that already used for something?
If I was there, and I saw the umpire make that motion after review, I would have thought he was saying the runner at second was "safe." My baseball knowledge is pretty basic, so that's my problem. However, the similarity between the motions doesn't seem to be doing anyone a favor.
Thanks for the informative video, keep it up.
Nah, that signal has "social justice" meanings, and the Woke Warriors of America would then accuse MLB of "cultural appropriation." Just keep the "wave off" above the shoulders, and everything is fine.
How about on replays that where the decision is to "wave off, or not to wave off," the umpires signal with hands at face level, palms out, and then going into either a "thumbs up" or a "thumbs down?" It would be just a little touch of the Roman Colosseum.
So what were they challenging exactly? Isn't it common knowledge that the run doesn't count after the third out is made or is it something else?
Run doesn’t score on third out if third out is the result of a force play. So they’re challenging the timing of it. Looked close enough from vids that they wanted to challenge whether the run scored before the tag. Remember teams may think the out is made on the call (wrong) rather than when the tag was applied (correct).
@@jackstraw3934 OK, so because they got him at first, it's not a force at second anymore so they tag him, which makes it a timed play whether the run gets in before the tag. Thanks.
@@jackstraw3934 I agree with what they were challenging. However, why did the crew chief make a safe signal after waiving off the run?
After the replay he confirmed the waive off of the run. “Waive off” is arms above head, “safe” is arms parallel. I think he got a little lazy on the second one, that’s all.
They were challenging if the runner touched the plate before the tag. Had it been a force, i.e., 2nd to first, the time play would have been moot.
Too bad he did not go for the forse at second THEN THE PLAY TO FIRST! Now we would no longer have a "time play"
I may have to watch this again but why would the out at second have to be a tag when it is a force play ?
It is not a force. Batter-runner was out after the touch on first; the runner on 2nd now must be tagged.
The batter-runner was out at first base so the runner could retreat back to first. He is no longer forced to advance, so he must be tagged.