Or by his proper name: _TESTAMENTUM, NOVUM_ . Mister Testamentum was noted for befriending the stoics and never inviting those libidinous epicureans to his parties.
From the first words this guy said I knew it would be disingenuous, but I didn't know quite how disingenuous it would be. My word, but this is pretty damn close to outright lies. Thanks for correcting his blatant misinformation, Dr Dan! :D
"And for John F. Kennedy, we have an astonishing 9,327,127,871,180,876 works mentioning him. That's because we counted all the newspaper articles written about him."
Nobody is throwing their gay 14 year old son out on the streets because of Homer's Odyssey. If your favorite book turns you into an awful garbage-fire of a person, I don't care how many copies of it you have.
Christian apologists seem to genuinely not understand the concept of “copying”. They don’t understand that the Synoptics copy Mark word-for-word (or what it implies), they don’t understand how the “unanimous attestation” about for traditional Gospel authorship is just later writers parroting Irenaeus’ hearsay, and they don’t understand how a preponderance of 4th-century and later copies of 1st and 2nd century texts is totally irrelevant to the origins of those texts.
The earliest writing of author validation is from Papias in 125AD. Irenaeus’ quote from Adversus Haereses in 180AD is more commonly used as we have it as a completed work whereas Papias’ ‘Expositions of the sayings of our Lord’ are mostly lost. The Synoptics do not copy Mark word for word and there it is still a highly contested statement that Mark came first. It seems as though Matthew came first (or at a very similar time) and was distributed amongst the Jews written in Aramaic, as the movement grew, Matthew moved into Koine Greek which had been the language of education and information for centuries by that point. Both of these writings came from the early 50s and there are numerous hints from the text itself, such as the omission of certain names merely adding titles like ‘the women’ to conceal the identities and thus prevent the capture and persecution of these individuals from the Jewish persecutions of which Paul was a leading component until his conversion on the road to Damascus. None of the texts are second century, Revelation was written in 96AD and John the final Biblical author died in 100AD whilst in exile on Patmos. Moreover we can place the original copies of numerous texts to centuries after. Tertullian writing in c206AD in De Praescriptione Haereticorum XXXVI “Come now, you who would indulge a better curiosity, if you would apply it to the business of your salvation, run over the apostolic churches, in which the very thrones of the apostles are still pre-eminent in their places, in which their own *authentic writings are read, uttering the voice and representing the face of each of them severally.” *The Latin word “authenticae” most always refers to the original copy as possessed by the author. Amongst these texts preserved until at least this time are (and not limited to): 1&2 Corinthians Philipians Thessalonians Ephesians and the Gospel according to John Romans This is not an arbitrary list, but are the letters possessed by the names places as well as John being know to be possessed by the church in Ephesus due to other writings. These include: Fragments (Pseudo-Peter) V.VII Which also places the original preserved John at the time of writing in c330AD. ‘…as John, the divine and evangelist, teaches us in the Gospel written by him, […] and the copy itself that was written by the hand of the evangelist, which, by the divine grace, has been preserved in the most holy church of Ephesus, and is there adored by the faithful…’ This enables us to place the original John (for what reason would either have to lie and what possibility could they have had to gain from lying?) before such manuscripts as: P5, P6, P22, P28, P39, P45, P52, P66, P75, P80, P90, P95, P106 Not to mention the highly defensible claim that we can believe the preserved original to be preserved at the time of the construction of: Codex Vaticanus - 325-350AD Codex Sinaiticus - mid-4th-century AD Codex Alexandrinus - early-5th-century AD Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus - early-5th-century AD Whilst we obviously cannot make the claim so explicitly with regard to John being around at the time of the Codex, it seems as though we have excellent reason to be entirely confident in the textual preservation at any rate and there is no reason to doubt the attributes Gospel writers as well as (with the exception of John) no reason to falsely attribute to any of these names.
@@tobytranter2266 The texts Papias describes do not sound like our GMark and GMatthew, you’d know this if you actually watched any of Dan’s videos about the subject (let alone looked into it yourself). GMatt does not show any signs of having been translated from Hebrew or Aramaic, it’s very clearly a text written originally in Greek. Half of GMatt is word-for-word copying from GMark, most of the changes being clear attempts by the author of GMatt to fix what they saw as errors in GMark. 2 Peter, a text that barely even pretends to be authored by Peter (since it admits the entire first generation of Christians are deceased), is a second-century forgery, as are the Pastoral Epistles. There’s also compelling evidence that some of Luke-Acts (namely Acts) is from the early or even mid second-century. I'm not confident on this last point, though, I'd defer to M. David Litwa on it. The stuff around John dying on Patmos in 100 AD is folklore.
@@tobytranter2266 Papias says Mark made effort to not omit anything he had heard from Peter. That Mark also happens to be the shortest gospel with the least original material and what is common is abridged. So he didn't know what he was talking about either.
Mark literally cites his sources which have no other purpose than validation of his claims. You don't seem to understand textual criticism or historical writing or validation.
Big time! I wish apologists would admit that if we found out any of these texts were false, their day-to-day life would not change one bit. So, you can’t compare them to the New Testament.
@gregogrady8027 that's true. He came from some divine lineage, a demigod perhaps. But I have never heard of somebody who actually believe those claims. But you are right about that.
The furtiveness of the correction demonstrates that he wasn’t simply duped, he’s dishonest. It’s been a long time since I’ve been a Christian, but I have to wonder how these people justify such blatant dishonesty to themselves. If my apologists have to lie, what does it say about their apologetics? If I have to lie to defend my faith, what does it say about my faith?
@pansepot1490 That is not even true complete completely. Technology? Did the printing press suddenly make books less quality than the work of a book maker? The quantity is spread over 1500 years, at least for NT, all over Europe, Africa, and else where, between wars, natural destruction, political strife, economic diasters, and more.
I don't know why apologists who are inerrancy-believers even bother making historically-based arguments. They're claiming the miracle of inerrency. It can't be broken down further than that. They aren't playing the same sport as academics like Dan.
I think they are trying to appeal to people like us who want evidence. And they are essentially challenging us to say that even on our own terms, the Bible surpasses all expectations.
“faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Obviously not even Christians can be fully convinced by faith alone. Faith is great BUT they also want the reassurance that they have tangible evidence on their side.
I just don't get this. When you discover your faith is based on lies, why do people propagate those lies. You can still believe anything you want with faith. Why lie?
@@geneshifter that's the reason for many, I'm sure. I've got a Christian friend whose only Christian trait isbelieving he gets to live forever and be with his family in heaven. I don't get it.
The difference between serious academics and propagandists is quite simple. The first says “In the state of our knowledge we do not know”. The second assert “In the state of my dogmas I know”.
This is the type of fallacy that attempts to lower the level of evidence of others instead of presenting high quality evidence themselves. "Now that I proved that the evidence for Plato meets a low quality standard, we can agree that we both are equally right or wrong". Instead of trying to increase your own standard But, nobody is claiming that Plato did any supernatural thing. Or it would be equally dismissed as Jesus.
Moreover, it wouldn't matter if Plato never actually existed and his works were written by a time traveler named Barry Manilow, because the works stand on their own.
I find it disappointing that he's leaving off that we have over 120 million manuscripts for Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. That makes it 5,000 TIMES as accurate as the Bible.
The issue is that there were many Christianities in the first 3 centuries, and people considered the gospels just narrations and eye witness accounts. When different copies spread into different places, these differences would be sustained and amplified. A scribe in Spain and a scribe in Alexandria will produce different manuscripts based on what they had at hand...
We need a second response to Oklahoma superintendent Ryan Walters addressing the various canons, translations, and potential interpretations of the bible
Agreed. Rather than teaching the children of what to believe. The children need to be focused of what a person does in life. Not what happens to one after death.
@@IheartDogs55 I want to see a teacher asked, in regards to the Song of Solomon, that when the male narrator compares the woman he loves to a palm tree and her breasts to the palm fruit clusters, what exactly was he saying by stating "I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit"? In fact, if the teenagers of Oklahoma request, I'm sure people can provide a whole list of biblical passages they can ask their teachers about, which the teachers can then dutifully pass on that the students are asking about.
Weird standard shift. 7:16 “Not exactly sure that what we have with Plato is *accurate,”* but the Christian Bible texts are “what was intended for us.” Paul didn’t intend anything for us, because he thought it was all going to end in a few years.
I don't get why number of copies vs numbers of variants (don't know the textual critics term) is such a hard concept for some people. These days I assume any apologist is being deceptive, but the audience is lapping it up anyway
Hey Dan! These videos are awesome, thanks for stating the facts without bias. Would you make a video as to how scholars know that there was editing between the original composition and the earliest manuscripts?
New Testament, we can be pretty sure we have the copy that was intended for us. So you can be sure the original authors were as bat shit crazy as they appear to be in todays translations.
Hey Dan! Been a fan for a couple of months now - you're helping me contextualize my inner religious trauma in a very healthy and educated way. One total out of the blue, hyper specific request regarding your exporting or initial filming process - could you disable HDR? RUclips automatically brightens the screen when streaming the video in HDR. Or tell me to buzz off - you'll get my views regardless.
Note the NT is the only one here with at least partial authorship outside Europe. It's entirely that European works are found principally in Europe and yet they don't survive. Even Greece is wet compared to the Levant and Egypt so the oldest surviving documents surviving on the continent are carbonized papyri. The oldest parchment from Europe of any text is 7th century CE and the oldest paper document is 10th century, everything else has rotted away. If we include inscriptions then far more European works by known authors survive, for example the Lugdunum tablet records a speech given by Claudius given to the Roman Senate and almost certainly carved very soon after it was made.
I'm going to give that guy one point for being a board gamer, but that's about it. A question for you Dan, how do we know that there exists that century to 2-century gab between authorship and our earliest fragments of documents? In other words, how do we know that that gap was that length and perhaps not shorter?
Many methods are used ranging from epigraphy to archeology. As Dan said, we have a fragment of the Gospel of John. The academic can also date a text by the style used... This is why we know that Epicurus wrote 100 books (an uncertain knowledge like all serious knowledge) and what remains? 3 letters. You should know that the atomist doctrine of Epicurus was not appreciated by Christians and Muslims.... This is another aspect of the preservation and transmission of texts…
Great stuff as usual. But it’s borderline pedantic to correct his pronunciation of Tacitus. Sure, the c is hard in modern reconstructions of classical Latin. But all European vernaculars developed their own pronunciations of Latin over the last millennium. In English pronunciation of Latin, the c is always soft before an i or e - eg. species, placebo. So when I read Tacitus in Latin at my very old fashioned high school and fusty university last century, the c in Tacitus was always soft!
As a near-full preterist, I am still OK with a later date of authorship. It would just mean Revelation is a description of the spiritual meaning behind world events the readers/hearers would be familiar with. Similar to Hebrews, with it's depiction of Jesus as a representation of all the things the Jewish community lost in 70CE.
Old manuscripts are the best! The Gesta Danorum by Saxo Grammaticus reads like Harry Potter meets Game of Thrones. Dualing lists of nobles fighting for crowns, traditions and customs that basically treat nobles like they aren't human beings, wizards everywhere even though magic is illegal and punishable by trampling, too much incest...
The top result from a simple web search is a urologist. Since that's the same level of scholarship the original creator did, we might as well assume that's correct
Those references MUST be things MENTIONING the people right? So the list is trying to say that the OLDEST thing mentioning Ceasar is from 900 AD, right? Didn't the NT mention Ceasar?
No, these are works written by those people. Julius Caesar wrote a firsthand account of the Gallic Wars, in which he fought, called Commentarii de Bello Gallico. That title is often translated into English as The Gallic Wars, which is the name of the manuscript that this guy gives. I had to look all this up because I didn't know that Caesar had written any major works at all.
Also, the NT mentions Caesar Augustus (e.g. in Luke's nativity story Caesar Augustus, who was Julius Caesar's adopted son, calls for the census). The Caesars mentioned later in the chronology (e.g. "give to Caesar what is Caesar's") are later emperors. Julius Caesar was pre-Jesus.
@@PhrontDoor Huh? Does anyone claim that he did? The original creator was talking about authors, not subjects. In contrast to Caesar, I’ve never heard that any book in the NT is supposed to have been written by Jesus.
The amount and size of a literature is not a proof of its legitimacy, otherwise we have to assume that only the truth can spread, which would mean that we living in a world where virtually everything is the truth.
Off Topic The tragedy is that so much of all " Ancient Writings " were lost over the centuries Euripides wrote over 90 plays, but they only have less than 20 Can we blame book-burners ?
Books do not last forever and need to be continually copied and circulated to survive. The kingdoms of medieval Indonesia made extensive records, but they were all on palm leaves, so when those kingdoms fell, the infrastructure to maintain those records no longer existed and the existing leaf records quickly decayed. Deciding what to preserve is key to what survives. So the medieval Church tolerated pre-Christian mythological stories but not accounts of religious practice, so we have Homer, Hesiod, Ovid, etc. but little information on how ancient Greek worship of their gods functioned day to day.
@@digitaljanus absolutely. They alao choose to prioritize Plato, in a less extend Stoic and Aristotle, the latter in Byzantium. However "Sophists", pre Socratic and especially atomists (Epicurean) were thrown in the garbage bin... If Lucretius haven't wrote a poem we will know nothing about atomist philosophy... Dominants love choose picking what culture is worth saving.
So, just another lying Christian apologist then? You have to love the way apologists freely use the word truth even as they consistently lie. Dan, "There's a lot we don't know." Something you will never hear an apologist admit.
I would have thought the scholarly estimates are more "conservative" in the sense of cautious. I suppose you might be using conservative in the sense of the ideology here? It sounds like the original content creator's numbers are more fanciful and wilder estimates?
It's actually worse than you said, because you corrected him based on works written BY these people, but he said written ABOUT them, so the numbers should be even higher
Christians: there’s more documentation of Jesus than there is of Caesar. Me: all that point does is make me doubt Caesars existence more than it makes me believe in Jesus’ more 🤷♂️
'intended for us' - arrogant false assumption that the text was written especially for 'us' in our times - NOT with contemporaneous needs and wants of anyone back when they were authored and eventually copied....Dan thanks for skewering this false misinformation and correcting it.
Think about it, who wants to teach “alternative” explanations of the theory of evolution? Who wants to put 10 commandments in public schools? In short, conservatives reject contemporary knowledge, especially when this knowledge contradicts or calls into doubt the dogmas supported by conservatives. In Biblical studies? Supporting the whacko inerrancy and univocality of the texts…
Face it you’re religion has been exposed, you are just clinging on for desperation because you’ve built your life around it. The truth will set you free
"Moist scholars" saying something is not proof of anything and this is the problem with everything you post. The majority view of something doesn't always make it correct, just as consensus and peer review doesn't make a theory fact.
Sigh. A theory can never become a fact. A theory is based on data. A serious theory evolves over time and may even be declared false. Academic consensus is not there to declare that a hypothesis or theory or interpretations of a theory are true ad saecula saeculorum. Peer review and consensus is a discussion about the robustness, relevance, and methodology of a proposed work. Is it imperfect? Of course! But this is the best way to get rid of fluffy bunnies explanations.
The tagline of Dan's 'Data over Dogma' podcast (and presumably how he sees his mission) is to 'Increase public access to the academic study of the bible and religion and combat misinformation about the same'. Both rather require going after the amateurs, since they have a wildly greater reach than the professionals. How much of the public interacts with professional apologists compared to Tik Tok 'influencers'? He does collaborate with other professional scholars, both in other podcasts/YT channels and in academia, including as organizing and presenting at conferences.
He has videos which explain this. Dan has specifically chosen to engage with social media because of its reach-a pretty reasonable choice imo. To the extent that “conservative biblical scholars” are on social media, he’ll engage with them.
Ah yes, The New Testament, my favorite ancient person
Or by his proper name: _TESTAMENTUM, NOVUM_ . Mister Testamentum was noted for befriending the stoics and never inviting those libidinous epicureans to his parties.
From the first words this guy said I knew it would be disingenuous, but I didn't know quite how disingenuous it would be. My word, but this is pretty damn close to outright lies. Thanks for correcting his blatant misinformation, Dr Dan! :D
Ignorant and wrong, probably not disingenuous.
Thou shalt not bear false witness.
@@lennierofthethirdfaneofchu7286 false witness includes an intent to deceive. I don't believe that's what's going on here. He's just an idiot.
close to? frogs hair away from
@@ronjones1414Ignorant, wrong and disingenuous: sounds like the pillars of all religious beliefs. 🤣
"And for John F. Kennedy, we have an astonishing 9,327,127,871,180,876 works mentioning him. That's because we counted all the newspaper articles written about him."
Don’t go down the Harry Potter rabbit hole. That gets out of hand when all those fan fiction sites come into play. 😂
Nobody is throwing their gay 14 year old son out on the streets because of Homer's Odyssey. If your favorite book turns you into an awful garbage-fire of a person, I don't care how many copies of it you have.
🎯
I'm not a Christian but I would absolutely stuff my gay son into a box and ship him to Saudi Arabia.
No one is born gay.
Good illustration of the need for peer review, to pass the gauntlet of legitimate criticism before an idea is considered worth sharing.
Christian apologists seem to genuinely not understand the concept of “copying”. They don’t understand that the Synoptics copy Mark word-for-word (or what it implies), they don’t understand how the “unanimous attestation” about for traditional Gospel authorship is just later writers parroting Irenaeus’ hearsay, and they don’t understand how a preponderance of 4th-century and later copies of 1st and 2nd century texts is totally irrelevant to the origins of those texts.
@soarel325
Yep. It's a looooong tradition of "trust me bro"
The earliest writing of author validation is from Papias in 125AD.
Irenaeus’ quote from
Adversus Haereses in 180AD is more commonly used as we have it as a completed work whereas Papias’ ‘Expositions of the sayings of our Lord’ are mostly lost.
The Synoptics do not copy Mark word for word and there it is still a highly contested statement that Mark came first. It seems as though Matthew came first (or at a very similar time) and was distributed amongst the Jews written in Aramaic, as the movement grew, Matthew moved into Koine Greek which had been the language of education and information for centuries by that point.
Both of these writings came from the early 50s and there are numerous hints from the text itself, such as the omission of certain names merely adding titles like ‘the women’ to conceal the identities and thus prevent the capture and persecution of these individuals from the Jewish persecutions of which Paul was a leading component until his conversion on the road to Damascus.
None of the texts are second century, Revelation was written in 96AD and John the final Biblical author died in 100AD whilst in exile on Patmos.
Moreover we can place the original copies of numerous texts to centuries after.
Tertullian writing in c206AD in
De Praescriptione Haereticorum XXXVI
“Come now, you who would indulge a better curiosity, if you would apply it to the business of your salvation, run over the apostolic churches, in which the very thrones of the apostles are still pre-eminent in their places, in which their own *authentic writings are read, uttering the voice and representing the face of each of them severally.”
*The Latin word “authenticae” most always refers to the original copy as possessed by the author.
Amongst these texts preserved until at least this time are (and not limited to):
1&2 Corinthians
Philipians
Thessalonians
Ephesians and the Gospel according to John
Romans
This is not an arbitrary list, but are the letters possessed by the names places as well as John being know to be possessed by the church in Ephesus due to other writings.
These include:
Fragments (Pseudo-Peter) V.VII
Which also places the original preserved John at the time of writing in c330AD.
‘…as John, the divine and evangelist, teaches us in the Gospel written by him, […] and the copy itself that was written by the hand of the evangelist, which, by the divine grace, has been preserved in the most holy church of Ephesus, and is there adored by the faithful…’
This enables us to place the original John (for what reason would either have to lie and what possibility could they have had to gain from lying?) before such manuscripts as:
P5, P6, P22, P28, P39, P45, P52, P66, P75, P80, P90, P95, P106
Not to mention the highly defensible claim that we can believe the preserved original to be preserved at the time of the construction of:
Codex Vaticanus - 325-350AD
Codex Sinaiticus - mid-4th-century AD
Codex Alexandrinus - early-5th-century AD
Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus - early-5th-century AD
Whilst we obviously cannot make the claim so explicitly with regard to John being around at the time of the Codex, it seems as though we have excellent reason to be entirely confident in the textual preservation at any rate and there is no reason to doubt the attributes Gospel writers as well as (with the exception of John) no reason to falsely attribute to any of these names.
@@tobytranter2266 The texts Papias describes do not sound like our GMark and GMatthew, you’d know this if you actually watched any of Dan’s videos about the subject (let alone looked into it yourself).
GMatt does not show any signs of having been translated from Hebrew or Aramaic, it’s very clearly a text written originally in Greek. Half of GMatt is word-for-word copying from GMark, most of the changes being clear attempts by the author of GMatt to fix what they saw as errors in GMark.
2 Peter, a text that barely even pretends to be authored by Peter (since it admits the entire first generation of Christians are deceased), is a second-century forgery, as are the Pastoral Epistles. There’s also compelling evidence that some of Luke-Acts (namely Acts) is from the early or even mid second-century. I'm not confident on this last point, though, I'd defer to M. David Litwa on it.
The stuff around John dying on Patmos in 100 AD is folklore.
@@tobytranter2266 Papias says Mark made effort to not omit anything he had heard from Peter. That Mark also happens to be the shortest gospel with the least original material and what is common is abridged.
So he didn't know what he was talking about either.
Mark literally cites his sources which have no other purpose than validation of his claims. You don't seem to understand textual criticism or historical writing or validation.
Most important. Plato, Homer, Caesar, Tacitus... none of them are claiming to be divine, resurrected etc...
Big time! I wish apologists would admit that if we found out any of these texts were false, their day-to-day life would not change one bit.
So, you can’t compare them to the New Testament.
Or if they did, those claims would be dismissed without a second thought. Massive double standards.
The writings about Caesar actually did claim him to be divine.
@gregogrady8027 that's true. He came from some divine lineage, a demigod perhaps. But I have never heard of somebody who actually believe those claims. But you are right about that.
The furtiveness of the correction demonstrates that he wasn’t simply duped, he’s dishonest.
It’s been a long time since I’ve been a Christian, but I have to wonder how these people justify such blatant dishonesty to themselves. If my apologists have to lie, what does it say about their apologetics? If I have to lie to defend my faith, what does it say about my faith?
Your argument is not persuasive. He's just an idiot.
I appreciate the amount of work that goes into these response videos
Quantity does not always indicate quality.
Especially when 94% are 800 years later than Nt itself😂
Often it’s the opposite: more quantity => less quality 😉😄
@pansepot1490
That is not even true complete completely. Technology? Did the printing press suddenly make books less quality than the work of a book maker?
The quantity is spread over 1500 years, at least for NT, all over Europe, Africa, and else where, between wars, natural destruction, political strife, economic diasters, and more.
I don't know why apologists who are inerrancy-believers even bother making historically-based arguments. They're claiming the miracle of inerrency. It can't be broken down further than that. They aren't playing the same sport as academics like Dan.
I think they are trying to appeal to people like us who want evidence. And they are essentially challenging us to say that even on our own terms, the Bible surpasses all expectations.
“faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
Obviously not even Christians can be fully convinced by faith alone. Faith is great BUT they also want the reassurance that they have tangible evidence on their side.
I think they are only making content for like-minded believers who may be having a bit of doubt.
It's sad that the only way some people can defend their spiritual beliefs is by lying, obfuscating, and omitting facts from their talking points.
I just don't get this. When you discover your faith is based on lies, why do people propagate those lies. You can still believe anything you want with faith. Why lie?
@@alexmcd378
Fear. Just straight-up, abject fear, which was instilled by self and group-deception and indoctrination.
@@alexmcd378 I really don't know but millions do. I think they are just scared of death.
@@geneshifter that's the reason for many, I'm sure. I've got a Christian friend whose only Christian trait isbelieving he gets to live forever and be with his family in heaven. I don't get it.
The difference between serious academics and propagandists is quite simple. The first says “In the state of our knowledge we do not know”. The second assert “In the state of my dogmas I know”.
Alright, let's see it! 👀
This is the type of fallacy that attempts to lower the level of evidence of others instead of presenting high quality evidence themselves.
"Now that I proved that the evidence for Plato meets a low quality standard, we can agree that we both are equally right or wrong". Instead of trying to increase your own standard
But, nobody is claiming that Plato did any supernatural thing. Or it would be equally dismissed as Jesus.
Moreover, it wouldn't matter if Plato never actually existed and his works were written by a time traveler named Barry Manilow, because the works stand on their own.
@@VulcanLogic Oh MAN do I want to believe that Barry Manilow is a time traveler!
It should tell a person something if they have to lie to give their point adequate support
Every apologist ever.
I find it disappointing that he's leaving off that we have over 120 million manuscripts for Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. That makes it 5,000 TIMES as accurate as the Bible.
The issue is that there were many Christianities in the first 3 centuries, and people considered the gospels just narrations and eye witness accounts. When different copies spread into different places, these differences would be sustained and amplified. A scribe in Spain and a scribe in Alexandria will produce different manuscripts based on what they had at hand...
We need a second response to Oklahoma superintendent Ryan Walters addressing the various canons, translations, and potential interpretations of the bible
I agree with you. I want to know which of the many stories in the Bible overall will be off limits,starting with Lot & his daughters. 😅
Agreed. Rather than teaching the children of what to believe. The children need to be focused of what a person does in life. Not what happens to one after death.
@@IheartDogs55 I want to see a teacher asked, in regards to the Song of Solomon, that when the male narrator compares the woman he loves to a palm tree and her breasts to the palm fruit clusters, what exactly was he saying by stating "I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit"?
In fact, if the teenagers of Oklahoma request, I'm sure people can provide a whole list of biblical passages they can ask their teachers about, which the teachers can then dutifully pass on that the students are asking about.
@@IheartDogs55 pornhub has covered that
Obligatory reply to boost this comment in the algorithm.
Weird standard shift. 7:16 “Not exactly sure that what we have with Plato is *accurate,”* but the Christian Bible texts are “what was intended for us.”
Paul didn’t intend anything for us, because he thought it was all going to end in a few years.
Love when Dan brings the receipts.
I don't get why number of copies vs numbers of variants (don't know the textual critics term) is such a hard concept for some people. These days I assume any apologist is being deceptive, but the audience is lapping it up anyway
More information to assimilate into our understanding is always beneficial. Thank you.
Apologists lie a lot
Thanks Dan!!!!
Props for respecting the Latin 'c'!
Thank you.
Hey Dan! These videos are awesome, thanks for stating the facts without bias. Would you make a video as to how scholars know that there was editing between the original composition and the earliest manuscripts?
I ran into a guy on some IG comments the other day claiming this and now I see where he got it from lol
New Testament, we can be pretty sure we have the copy that was intended for us. So you can be sure the original authors were as bat shit crazy as they appear to be in todays translations.
You need to do a video on these Chief Midegah “ancient Native America scrolls” videos that have been going around
Hey Dan! Been a fan for a couple of months now - you're helping me contextualize my inner religious trauma in a very healthy and educated way.
One total out of the blue, hyper specific request regarding your exporting or initial filming process - could you disable HDR? RUclips automatically brightens the screen when streaming the video in HDR.
Or tell me to buzz off - you'll get my views regardless.
How many corrections does one need to make before they just delete the video? I feel like it's way less than the number he made.
❤❤❤
Lies, damn Lies, statistics; and Biblical apologists...
Dan, hv you considered addressing the claims of Nehemiah Gordan?
Note the NT is the only one here with at least partial authorship outside Europe. It's entirely that European works are found principally in Europe and yet they don't survive. Even Greece is wet compared to the Levant and Egypt so the oldest surviving documents surviving on the continent are carbonized papyri. The oldest parchment from Europe of any text is 7th century CE and the oldest paper document is 10th century, everything else has rotted away.
If we include inscriptions then far more European works by known authors survive, for example the Lugdunum tablet records a speech given by Claudius given to the Roman Senate and almost certainly carved very soon after it was made.
Herodotus was from Asia Minor.
I'm going to give that guy one point for being a board gamer, but that's about it. A question for you Dan, how do we know that there exists that century to 2-century gab between authorship and our earliest fragments of documents? In other words, how do we know that that gap was that length and perhaps not shorter?
Many methods are used ranging from epigraphy to archeology. As Dan said, we have a fragment of the Gospel of John. The academic can also date a text by the style used... This is why we know that Epicurus wrote 100 books (an uncertain knowledge like all serious knowledge) and what remains? 3 letters. You should know that the atomist doctrine of Epicurus was not appreciated by Christians and Muslims.... This is another aspect of the preservation and transmission of texts…
It's just a weak way to try to live. That affirmation you're seeking should tell you something.
Great stuff as usual. But it’s borderline pedantic to correct his pronunciation of Tacitus. Sure, the c is hard in modern reconstructions of classical Latin. But all European vernaculars developed their own pronunciations of Latin over the last millennium. In English pronunciation of Latin, the c is always soft before an i or e - eg. species, placebo. So when I read Tacitus in Latin at my very old fashioned high school and fusty university last century, the c in Tacitus was always soft!
kind of an abrupt ending there.
As a near-full preterist, I am still OK with a later date of authorship. It would just mean Revelation is a description of the spiritual meaning behind world events the readers/hearers would be familiar with. Similar to Hebrews, with it's depiction of Jesus as a representation of all the things the Jewish community lost in 70CE.
Old manuscripts are the best! The Gesta Danorum by Saxo Grammaticus reads like Harry Potter meets Game of Thrones. Dualing lists of nobles fighting for crowns, traditions and customs that basically treat nobles like they aren't human beings, wizards everywhere even though magic is illegal and punishable by trampling, too much incest...
Not 'being inaccurate.' Lying. Deliberately. Intentionally. :Lying for jesus, one of the most popular methods of apologetics.
I’m glad the Dan McClellan Corpus is available right now well before the end is his life. 😊
Could you please remove the CC. If needed, use the youtube one.
I notice Brackin is a doctor, do you know *in what* ?
The top result from a simple web search is a urologist. Since that's the same level of scholarship the original creator did, we might as well assume that's correct
@benroberts2222 maybe he's actually a proctologist and he pulled it from his ass.
It would probably look even better if you placed the on-screen images below your face and the speech-to-text above your head.
I have to admit that I’m always just a little disappointed that you don’t end these videos by assigning a letter grade. 😂
Im not sure what these proves except that the bible was popular… so what? So is harry potter and lotr? Neither are true.
Liars for jesus
Your last 6 words were accurate.
You already admitted you would eventually have to patronize with shiiva. Offsprings of Gaia with Bramah have a lineage?
Those references MUST be things MENTIONING the people right? So the list is trying to say that the OLDEST thing mentioning Ceasar is from 900 AD, right?
Didn't the NT mention Ceasar?
No, these are works written by those people. Julius Caesar wrote a firsthand account of the Gallic Wars, in which he fought, called Commentarii de Bello Gallico. That title is often translated into English as The Gallic Wars, which is the name of the manuscript that this guy gives.
I had to look all this up because I didn't know that Caesar had written any major works at all.
Also, the NT mentions Caesar Augustus (e.g. in Luke's nativity story Caesar Augustus, who was Julius Caesar's adopted son, calls for the census). The Caesars mentioned later in the chronology (e.g. "give to Caesar what is Caesar's") are later emperors. Julius Caesar was pre-Jesus.
I think they refer to copies of texts purportedly authored by those individuals. Caesar was a prolific author (often about his own campaigns...)
@@johnmcgimpsey1825 Hope not.. Jesus authored nothing.
@@PhrontDoor Huh? Does anyone claim that he did? The original creator was talking about authors, not subjects. In contrast to Caesar, I’ve never heard that any book in the NT is supposed to have been written by Jesus.
The amount and size of a literature is not a proof of its legitimacy, otherwise we have to assume that only the truth can spread, which would mean that we living in a world where virtually everything is the truth.
Off Topic
The tragedy is that so much of all " Ancient Writings " were lost over the centuries
Euripides wrote over 90 plays, but they only have less than 20
Can we blame book-burners ?
Yes. Especially for naughty atomists like Democritus, Epicurus....
Books do not last forever and need to be continually copied and circulated to survive. The kingdoms of medieval Indonesia made extensive records, but they were all on palm leaves, so when those kingdoms fell, the infrastructure to maintain those records no longer existed and the existing leaf records quickly decayed. Deciding what to preserve is key to what survives. So the medieval Church tolerated pre-Christian mythological stories but not accounts of religious practice, so we have Homer, Hesiod, Ovid, etc. but little information on how ancient Greek worship of their gods functioned day to day.
@@digitaljanus So the answer to my question is " YES" , (ty)
@@digitaljanus absolutely. They alao choose to prioritize Plato, in a less extend Stoic and Aristotle, the latter in Byzantium. However "Sophists", pre Socratic and especially atomists (Epicurean) were thrown in the garbage bin... If Lucretius haven't wrote a poem we will know nothing about atomist philosophy... Dominants love choose picking what culture is worth saving.
The New Testament wasn't intended for us. It was intended for the time period in which it was written.
So, just another lying Christian apologist then?
You have to love the way apologists freely use the word truth even as they consistently lie.
Dan, "There's a lot we don't know." Something you will never hear an apologist admit.
I would have thought the scholarly estimates are more "conservative" in the sense of cautious. I suppose you might be using conservative in the sense of the ideology here? It sounds like the original content creator's numbers are more fanciful and wilder estimates?
The scrolling titling is VERY hard to watch.
It's actually worse than you said, because you corrected him based on works written BY these people, but he said written ABOUT them, so the numbers should be even higher
Christians: there’s more documentation of Jesus than there is of Caesar.
Me: all that point does is make me doubt Caesars existence more than it makes me believe in Jesus’ more 🤷♂️
Well if a Christian said that... It's a lie😂
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: you don't have 24 000 manuscripts of the New Testament, you have 24 000 hand-written copies.
'intended for us' - arrogant false assumption that the text was written especially for 'us' in our times - NOT with contemporaneous needs and wants of anyone back when they were authored and eventually copied....Dan thanks for skewering this false misinformation and correcting it.
I'm confused about in what sense you are using the word "conservative" in here
Religious believers apologists with degrees - iow - liars.
Think about it, who wants to teach “alternative” explanations of the theory of evolution? Who wants to put 10 commandments in public schools? In short, conservatives reject contemporary knowledge, especially when this knowledge contradicts or calls into doubt the dogmas supported by conservatives. In Biblical studies? Supporting the whacko inerrancy and univocality of the texts…
esau
🤔😒🙄🤦♀️🤦♀️
Face it you’re religion has been exposed, you are just clinging on for desperation because you’ve built your life around it. The truth will set you free
She oughta be locked up for grand theft😂 And dem holes in dem jeans aint designer😂
We have over a million copies of Harry Potter. Checkmate Christians
You mean he lied? That makes him an apologist! How many miracles did Plato perform? Did Homer resurrect? Did Caesar promise to return?
DR AMMON HILLMAN IS THE WINNER
Really annoying to have the text forces on the screen - esp. the way it bobbles up. Won't be watching this vid any further, or any more of your vids.
Dan you worship a gay God
"Moist scholars" saying something is not proof of anything and this is the problem with everything you post. The majority view of something doesn't always make it correct, just as consensus and peer review doesn't make a theory fact.
Dan never said it did!
@@veridicusmaximus6010 His implications are that he somehow is proving Christianity fake and he hasn't come close.
@@jbutero1 No, he is countering the fake claims in the vid.
Sigh. A theory can never become a fact. A theory is based on data. A serious theory evolves over time and may even be declared false. Academic consensus is not there to declare that a hypothesis or theory or interpretations of a theory are true ad saecula saeculorum. Peer review and consensus is a discussion about the robustness, relevance, and methodology of a proposed work. Is it imperfect? Of course! But this is the best way to get rid of fluffy bunnies explanations.
@@karldehaut And replace it with fish to ape to man stories that are utterly ridiculous.
Why do you go after low-hanging fruit like these amateur apologists? Why not engage with conservative biblical scholars and professional apologists?
The tagline of Dan's 'Data over Dogma' podcast (and presumably how he sees his mission) is to 'Increase public access to the academic study of the bible and religion and combat misinformation about the same'. Both rather require going after the amateurs, since they have a wildly greater reach than the professionals. How much of the public interacts with professional apologists compared to Tik Tok 'influencers'? He does collaborate with other professional scholars, both in other podcasts/YT channels and in academia, including as organizing and presenting at conferences.
Like who and what point would they make that counters anything he said?
He was correcting that Cliff guy just the other day. For some reason that guy is highly respected among Christians. Good propaganda, I guess.
@@johnmcgimpsey1825 Makes sense.
He has videos which explain this. Dan has specifically chosen to engage with social media because of its reach-a pretty reasonable choice imo. To the extent that “conservative biblical scholars” are on social media, he’ll engage with them.
I must say you are somewhat pompous and you couldn't hold your own in that Danny Jones interview Dr Hillman made you his breakfast