I own a 2018 European branded vehicle (not a BMW), the Base trim version of which the seats are neither heated nor powered. When putting together my Build-Sheet, I noticed several other electrically-powered features which were also unavailable. I concluded there was a difference between the wiring-harness of the Base trim and that of the Upscale trims (of which there were three). All car manufacturers are attempting to reduce the complexity of having parts which are only slightly different from one another. Previously, if one purchased or leased the base trim BMW one didn't get heated seats anyway. [I purchased an Upscale trim for its Sport Seats which are of the same construction as the Top trim (performance) model.]
It must be considered that there are other ways to acquire something; such as receiving it as a gift, or inheriting it. A lease doesn't count, because that's a contract with an end date. Either way (gift or inheritance), you own it without having bought it. But thanks for putting the idea that this is piracy into my head!
Weird edge case. Nintendo sold two gadgets called the NES classic and SNES Classic. They were basically Retro Pis running emulation software and the games were the same Roms Nintendo has been trying to purge from the internet. If I was in Europe, I'd entitled to copy/remove those rom files and play those games on whatever hardware I saw fit for my personal use in perpetuity. EU law says you're entitled to alter and use the hardware and software YOU purchased as long as you don't redistribute it or profit off it. It's insane we don't have those protections here in America. I'm not allowed to crack my phone and remove bloatware because Samsung removed consumer access to the dev tools.
Yes! They are detaching ownership of knowledge and objects from the individual. Company knows the truth. Company owns what you have. Company sells your personal data to the point where you don't even "own" yourself more than the cattle at a meat factory do.
Just go to that one and only John Deere dealer within 1000 miles and wait for the part to get made, delivered and installed. Should only take a couples weeks, few months at worst. What's the problem?
@@BlackJesus8463 The problem!? You didn't factor in global supply chain issues and just how hard it is to get heavy equipment into the heartland, plus seeing as there's likely only one OEM and you're likely not the only person with the issue; I'd say you need to tack on at least another 2~3 months minimum! If you're lucky
Now? I've known about some of their reasons for a while now. This is just the tip of it. The others are so they can software lock their parts so nobody but THEM can do repair work, just like how John Deere and Apple do it using loopholes for software code that get around their requirement to provide parts.
The manufacturers will simply give the police a "master key" to remotely activate the trunk on your car. Police can shut a car down if its stolen. See Steve's video on that.
@@JeanPierreWhite Receiver antenna for that master key was broken due to excessive heat caused by the Global warming. Happened to my Jeep right after I bought it
Remember those old TV ads against internet "piracy?" We laughed when they said "you wouldn't download a car," because it was just such an absurd notion, but auto makers seem to be trying to turn it into a viable alternative to their predatory services.
Dumbest situation ever! 'Hey dude, if you want your icemaker on your new fridge to make crushed ice instead of just cubed it will cost you $5 a month.'
It is like watch Videos on RUclips for free with zillions of commercial pops in every now and then Or pay for subscription to watch commercial free Videos nowadays mostly everything comes with string attached.
Thank you for bringing this to light too... have been watching Louis Rossman speak on it too. Hoping that car manufacturers stop making things subscription, without governments forcing them to do so. It is a terrible money grab.
@@Cotronixco Very simple for extras like Sirius/XM, sure... because there are other very convenient options that are just as easy to use with the system (unless they start making ports charge only). It is also a service. For heated seats or auto start via fob that is already installed, not quite. Sure, one could put heated seat covers in... and could see if Viper or other alarm/car start will work with the car (will likely see the industry make it hard for that too)... but if the hardware is in the car, has been free for decades, and is not a service that requires bandwidth or royalties, then it is just a money grab and another point of failure for the car as it gets older.
@@Cotronixco the point is if not stopped now, and all companies do it, there won’t be any new car option to buy. I understand why you want things simple. Not everyone is capable of seeing the big picture. It is not as if your simple answers are unknown to me, Louis, Steve, or any others not likening how this change will affect the future of car ownership. The simple answer should be car companies not screwing over the buyer (or leasee if they get their way). It really is not simple in the long term… it is now, sure.
@@todaresq The free enterprise system is very simple. The can of worms you open when you ask government to control deals that two parties have already agreed on is the problem here.
This practice has been around for a long time. 15 years ago, I purchased a CD player that came in two versions, with or without remote control. I took a punt and purchased the significantly cheaper version, suspecting the maker only made one version but included the remote controller for the more expensive package. Sure enough, my universal controller that I had for my TV operated the CD player remotely.
That's different as the remote wasn't part of the package you bought etc. What you experienced is basically standard industry practice. Said practice is how BMW ended up putting seat heating components in all seats like they did. Because it's cheaper to just produce one model than it is to try to produce two models with the associated increased costs. If it was cheaper for BMW to remove the components they would of and we'd never have this situation. It's been common practice in the computer industry (electronics in general) for a long time now to bin components on production. For example CPUs are complex pieces of silicon requiring a lot of things to go right to produce. THe goal might be a four core CPU but if you have yield/production issues you might see a "high" failure rate on the pass/fail QC tests. Those failed units might work perfectly fine as dual cores. So they sell the four core version as the premium and the dual core version as a budget CPU. So if you look back you'll find that some CPUs were "famous" for having hidden cores that you could unlock. So your dual core might actually run fine as a tricore since only one of the four cores actually failed. No CPU manufacturer tried to retroactively charge people for getting better hardware than intended. It really feels like the leaders in the auto industry are looking at micro transactions in gaming and drooling..
The worst thing is that these things run through the manufacturer's servers. Sooner or later they will turn the server off and tell owners that the car is 'no longer supported'. That happens a lot in the tech world. I had a whole device bricked by the manufacturer when it was just a year old - they offered to sell me their latest device at a discounted price, which was actually more than the price I paid for the original!. Needless to say I told them stick it where the sun don't shine.
Or they have terribly scaled servers. I have a Nissan Leaf, and if you use the mobile app, it takes a good minute for the car to do anything you request via the mobile app.
Honestly the first thing that came to mind was fighting games with characters already on the disc and fully operational locked behind DLC. Car companies are taking notes off some of the shittiest parts of the game publishers, wait for "surprise mechanics" in your $90k car.
"Sooner or later they will turn the server off and tell owners that the car is 'no longer supported'." Of course.. thats how they push you into buying a new car so you can do it all over again.
Car only supported for original purchaser. Additional owners must re-purchase the feature. Additionally, the contract was with the purchaser only, so other drivers aren't covered without a per-vehicle PDL (per-driver-license) for each feature available for an additional monthly fee. Naturally, these terms may be updated at any time without notice and over-the-air updates are a condition of using the vehicle. (aka - 'standard' features when you purchase may be reclassified as a limited time feature at a later date - but don't worry, monthly 'driver experience' packs may be purchased at the web store...)
The fatal flaw of these subscription services is that inevitably these options will no longer be supported making their obsolescence by design much more overt.
It happened to Lexus and others that used 3G wireless. In 2022, imagine having a four year old car and your subscription services just stopped working.
@@Callsign_Sturm I would think just modifying the system to work using bluetooth instead of 3G/5G would work too. Having subscriptions for both the car and phone are kind of redundant, just use the phone. That’s another thing that bothers me with all of this new car technology, my phone already has it. Get rid of the manufacturer specific junk and just make a universal infotainment system that operates using the phone.
@@inthesun3884 We're already past that point. The manufacturers have argued subscriptions allow them to reduce costs by streamlining their production line. That means everyone gets the same hardware.
@@Callsign_Sturm It’s just unbelievable to me that an automaker like Lexus, which is known for exceptional customer service, wouldn’t devise a solution for those customers. Heck, many owners probably hadn’t even paid off their car loan yet. I must admit, I’m not tech savvy, so I couldn’t do anything about it myself, but just like the factory radios for my old truck that I’ve seen for sale on ebay that have been upgraded for bluetooth, a knowledgeable person like yourself could do what you’re talking about and make a few bucks.
@@inthesun3884 Once the certified mail return receipt is signed for, just contact your bank and report additional charges as unauthorized. Or just cancel that card and get a replacement. Either way is a hassle though.
I like your argument about “ if it breaks” since you are renting the feature I feel the automakers should be on the hook for the repair. This could extend to remote start not working anymore or a broken heated seat. As much as they would like it the automakers can’t claim it’s a service but leave the customer in the lurch as soon as it’s an inconvenience or an expense for them.
All automakers will do is start charging you rental insurance the same way car rental companies do. Because that's exactly the bulshit they would do after thinking up of subscriptions models for cars.
If the makers want to be on the hook for maintenance of those things, then they need to lower the cost of the cars, and then I’ll gladly pay a subscription fee to them and be off the hook for repairs.
As Steve said, this is just testing the waters. Virtually everything on modern vehicles is electric and controlled through one or more of the computers in the vehicle. Power brakes, power steering, ABS, traction control, engine start/stop, engine /transmission performance, vehicle lights, power windows, power locks, power seats, heated seats, cooled seats, heated steering wheel, interior lights, and infotainment. One software update and they could control any or all of it remotely or obtain information about its use. I don't mind paying for something I get value from like satellite radio or WIFI, and currently the GPS update is an optional storage card update. What I would like and pay for is a couple more cameras for a factory dash cam uploadable to the cloud.
@@RefreshingShamrock "Heated seats is outrageous." For petrol cars, heat from the engine is free and it makes sense to dump some of it into the passenger compartment. But for electric cars, heating the passenger space comes at the price of reduced range; heated seats are a reasonable comprise that will conserve range whilst maintaining some level of driver comfort.
@@RefreshingShamrockWhy? Heated seats and steering wheels make it much more comfortable much quicker in the winter. Sure the garage may be heated but if you are parked all day at work it helps tremendously.
Heard "the buy your right to a seat at a concert and no refund because we couldn't sell that right to another person" and my thought was immediately, how have airlines not been sued out of existence for overbooking flights?
I *think* (and i could very likely be wrong) that those who buy a seat on a full flight, are told they are on a wait-list and are not guaranteed a seat. Thats at least how it *should* be.
@@lyianx I'm sure protocols vary. I was once told my flight was full and asked if I could wait three hours for the next one if they paid me handsomely, which I agreed to since I wasn't in a hurry, and they did.
@@VideoArchiveGuy I'm well aware of what BS the airlines put into their fine print. I'm merely being facetious about how a pre-law textbook example calls the practice into question.
That’s what happen to a Joe Chip in Philip K Dick’s Ubik, everything is like that in his apt, he must pay his door and has no money left, so he must ask his visitor to pay for the door 😂 Edit: The novel is from 1966
Right on the money as always Steve. In these times we live in, grouping these "businesses" with "heroin addicts" makes a disturbing amount of sense. All they want is their next "fix", and they'll do ANYTHING to get it. And they'll push it further at any chance they get. Now imagine this: Your seat belts, airbags and locks don't work because you didn't subscribe to them. Someone steals your car with a flash drive, then T-bones a semi truck and dies. Who's responsible?
A better model would be to give away the car for FREE then charge for everything like starting the engine, listening to the radio, using a/c, power door/windows, opening the trunk, using the Reverse, using the wipers, etc. It would be funny to see what people avoid using to save a few bucks also.
@@july8xx. A local store had HP printers on sale (not that I needed one, anyway). Saw they were HP printers, I ceased all consideration from purchasing one.
That is basically the direction. Basically the only way to justify a subscription in my opinion is to allow for buying the feature outright or paying a lower subscription cost. IE: The feature costs say $2400, and cost $100/mo. After 2 years the subscription will be more expensive. However, if you only plan to own the car for a year, it's a nice discount. That could definitely be expanded to cover everything. So everything is free but you need to pay a subscription. Oh wait, that's a lease. :) (I've always consider leases to be basically car subscriptions)
Next time one of the car manufacturing super-geniuses runs one of the last of the car companies in america into the dirt and goes to the congresscritters to ask for another bail-out, let your congresscritter know that the car manufacturer super-genius neglected to pay for the monthly taxpayers give a damn feature on their economy, so they are out of luck on that bail-out.
GM is quietly getting billions in loans and is asking for billions in grants, right now to keep operating. The amounts all manufacturers have spent on EV development has put all manufacturers in trouble.
@@TheBandit7613all the while, Mary Barra is a billionaire. I have no problem with GM and Ford making a profit. BUT if they get government guaranteed loans, the CEO and board need to make $1/ year and NO stock options until the loan is repaid.
I know it was said, in the future we will rent everything and own nothing. I hope everyone makes sure to take a stand against these practices. This is the road to that and if we don't fight it now then we let it happen to ourselves.
the thing is the IMF with there "own nothing and be happy" they were NOT predicting THIS at all and they pictured a FAR BETTER "world" where everything would be rented AS NEEDED need a Lawn mower use ap and borrow one and done it goes away NO storage NO maintenance that is the BE HAPPY part the reality is FAR WORSE with BUYING it THEN RENTING the use BUT still paying for maintenance and storage ETC
This is why I no longer use Microsoft Office. Once they went to the subscription model with Office 365, I moved over to Libre Office (WHICH IS FREE) and it works almost identical. I also refuse to use Adobe products because they only have a subscription model. Instead I use Affinity.
@@jasonriddellThe World Economic Forum (Klaus, i.e. Dr. Evil) said that, not the International Monetary Fund. The WEF does not want to free us from the problems of ownership, they seek to enslave us to their rental agreements. Their plan is for us to lose our ability to own our own lawmowers, cars, and even houses. They seek our subjugation by removing the very notion of ownership from everyone who does not belong to the Davos group.
Steve, this already happens with high end test electronics. When you buy an oscilloscope, the going price is about $10K per GHz, however, the whole series is capable of the maximum, they just restrict the frequency range with software. An acquaintance had a salesman let him use a display model for a few weeks, it was the highest option instrument they made and probably cost $150K (it went over 10 GHz). He told the salesman he wanted tone, but only need 3.5 GHz. The salesman, said he could keep that one if he liked, and they just sent a firmware update through the internet that turned off all the options he didn't want to pay for.
I used to see that happen with industrial instruments. (Transmitters, analyzers, valves, etc.) I haven’t seen them doing that lately. (I’m not saying some don’t still do that). I think it’s simply a matter of manufacturers realizing it upsets the customer and it’s actually worth more money to them in the long run to unlock everything. There is nothing more infuriating to a customer that may but thousands of these things asking for a feature, have the salesman quote him and added price and then punch a code into the device and walk away. Especially if another manufacture says, "No, we don’t do that. Your instrument already has it.)
As an American, it is my responsibility to ensure that the C-suite executives each have new yachts each year. I require my government to support this. /s
As a former car dealer I also would like to add the short life of software support in the auto industry....meaning anything from security updates to the time frame they will even offer the subscription.
This started with video games and their DLC subs, Season subs, monthly fees to play MMO RPGs *after* paying $70+ for the game and microtransactions. I'd love to see you do something on what happens to "purchased" movies & TV shows when services like Amazon lose their licensing or you cancel your account.
Infinity Train and the more recent Discovery fiasco has really pushed me to digitize my DVD Blu-ray collection in a DRM free format. I'm done with "walled garden" digital media since there's no guarantee a purchase won't be revoked at any time. No, you won't be compensated. Doesn't matter if the content was purchased one day or five years ago. I need to figure out how to do the same with my Audible collection because Amazon has already proven they will yank digital purchases off users accounts and devices.
SONY and Discovery had a situation where Discovery content users "purchased" was removed from there library without a refund - it was walked back but they TRIED
The biggest thing I think is universal for all businesses is the fact that eventually your 10% per year growth model eventually becomes unsustainable no matter what and there is too much of a standard of greed out there meaning all think a 0 growth quarter even is undesirable regardless of existing profit margins ..so they have to come up with such things to achieve the growth they desire on a consistent basis ...really it boils down to when is enough actually enough greed dictates never sadly ..
I’ve never understood why companies are held to the impossible standard of high growth. It is unsustainable and makes no sense. If a company is profitable, as long as there isn’t a significant drop in revenue there shouldn’t be a problem. Always growing is impossible.
But the investors! They need a tenfold return on their investment! Isn't there like an actual legal duty for companies to increase their share values for shareholders?
Well then your 401k and investments wouldnt grow. Prominent investors that have the companies ear only care about making money, not supporting a company for lack of a better word. @@barnabusdoyle4930
@@someguy4489 Used to be companies just paid out a dividend and called it a day. The dividend was your return. Now companies don't want to do that so they only way to get investor returns is to increase the stock price. But dividends are taxable as income so they are less favorable than trying to increase stock price which is only taxable when you sell and is taxed at capital gains rates.
@@barnabusdoyle4930it’s because payroll gets more expensive each year due to yearly pay increases and yearly inflation devalues your revenue. If you make the same amount of money this year as what you made last year, you’ve actually lost a lot of money. Because of this, companies that stagnate are eventually doomed to bankruptcy or downsizing.
The $1M answer is that they're going to claim that the software to control the features need to be updated consistently, and that requires someone to maintain the software, thus the subscription fee. I disagree with this as well (ie. the module to control the heated seats should just freaking work, for example), but this is what they will claim. PS: for my business administration minor way back in the day, I had to take Business Law (included basic contract law), and it was an amazing course. Steve, your channel is a wealth of information and a great resource.
I drive a 19-year-old Lexus in which the heated seats have never had to be repaired, still work perfectly, except the dashboard back-lighting on one of the control knobs is burned out. Not a problem. I know which way to turn the knob to get either heat or air-cooling.
@@roberttimma1023 or do like Volvo did NO remote start on the keyfob if you want remote start NEED TO USE THE APP that is internet enabled so you have to subscribe to a connectivity plan for remote start AND live traffic and "data connection"
@@roberttimma1023 Maybe a universal module that plugs into the infotainment. That way they can get all the subscription controls on one device to minimize production costs.
They will do this subscription to things like heated seats on a Lease. When you lease the car you don't own it. That is the only way I see this happening for subscription services with a car. That extra 50 or $100 a year can really add to the bottom line and that's why they will find a way to do it. A lease is the only way I see it happening. Then when people buy used cars they can hit them with another 1 time charge to turn features on. By then there will probably be an OBD hack LOL
I understand the subscription model for software (Microsoft 365 Office). They've got programmers updating the software all the time or adding new "features". I'm getting value for that subscription: ongoing support. Satellite radio is a subscription because the content providers get paid. But crippling a function for no reason is extortion. "Hello car driver. I've just disabled your brakes. But for $18/month I can turn them back on again."
I don't really. If I have software and it works, let me buy a version without ongoing updates. I don't need all the new features every year. For some especially companies, it may make sense, but for many consumers a permanent single pay version should be available.
@@14trukI prefer that method too. I only subscribe when I have to. Photoshop is one example. I only use it occasionally, but when fixing photos, I really need its features. The problem with subscriptions is that if you stop paying, they stop working. It's not rent-to-own.
There are a lot of intelligent consumers out there that can. They'll find some way of breaking the wireless link between the car and the car company so that a feature cannot be disabled.
Disable the entire car remotely or send it driving back to the police station as a car with stolen parts after it sends a periodic report of its status, then take you to criminal court for car theft.
If they want to be able to charge a subscription to customers, they actually need to come up with a compelling subscription based product that consumers would find valuable. Instead they’re just lazy and have decided they don’t need to give you anything in return, they’ll just demand more money because they want it.
I already hated that, at least with some makes of vehicles, you cannot buy a new vehicle without signing up for Sirius. The dealers claimed they didn't even have the ability to print sales contracts without including "free" satellite radio subscriptions, which includes sending personal information about yourself to the satellite radio companies to set up the subscription.
I had spent a few minutes looking for this so take this with a grain of salt (could be my imagination) but I remember Louis Rossmann talking about a biker vest that instantly inflates if the rider gets into an accident but this was on a subscription basis so if that elapsed and you got into a accident (could just be a malfunction or whatever or expired card) it wouldn't deploy... That is where this subscription future is going and it is scary!
Not only do they already sell all the data your car gathers about you, but they also harvest all data off of any phone you connect to the vehicle and sell that as well.
Not exactly. It depends on how you’re connecting the phone. The firmware of an iPhone doesn’t allow personal data to be arbitrarily sent via Bluetooth or usb.
@@brkbtjunkie Not necessarily that, but who you send and receive text messages from, and unencrypted Internet traffic like searches. Many GM vehicles already set themselves up as Wi-Fi hotspots.
The distinction in my mind that makes subscription fees fair is when there's an ongoing cost for supplying the feature. Map updates, satellite radio, and WiFi Internet qualify but heated seats or CarPlay/Android Auto certainly do not. I appreciate you Steve for articulating this in the language of contract law.
Exactly. The only way to justify something like heated seats is this: You can pay $500 for heated seats, or you can pay a $20/mo subscription. If you plan to have the car for more than 2 years, just pay for the heated seats. Complete BS if you have already bought the car and now they want to charge you a subscription.
You are advocating for these businesses to be able to double dip. You already pay for these services with your data that they are allowed to harvest and sell to whoever will pay the most. You dont seem to understand that YOU are the product to them
@@donsolos That's inapplicable to the examples I specified: map updates are provided by companies like Garmin or Telenav, satellite radio with SiriusXM, in-car WiFi by Verizon or AT&T. These companies business models aren't built like Google's or Facebook's.
@@donsolosAbuse of the data is a different argument. If we assume no ill intent, some services have ongoing costs. For example, they may charge you $10/mo for the cellular connection and streaming. If you could do without and bring your own cell service (such as connecting via WiFi) and everything still works then that would be a fair subscription.
Every time I hear about stuff like this, I always think back to the idea of that this will cause people to just hack their own car. I hope there are legal stops on this but there's a lot of money in screwing people over.
There's also the additional issue that these items add weight and cost fuel, so the buyer has additional costs even for undesired items. So, since these items add operational expenses, there should actually be a DISCOUNT for them if they are not removable.
Also like Quicken. I don't use online access, yet I'm required to pay yearly over and over again for the product I already bought. Not only that, but if I accidently hit 'update' because they flash that in front of you along with a do not update button , the update destroys all my reports and I have to start from scratch making them again.
I had a problem with my Direct TV box giving a message on the tv screen that it was too hot and would turn off. I checked the equipment and it was hot but it was not dusty or anything else near it. I called them and they wanted to charge me for new equipment and I said no. They said they would send it free of charge but I needed to pay shipping. I told them no that their product was defective and could have burned my house down. I got a free box without any shipping charge and made sure to check my bill for many months to see if they would try to sneak in a charge.
@@jstokes5582 Same here with DIRECTV on one of my remotes and a Genie receiver. I didn’t argue with them I explained it was their equipment,they would cover all expenses or I would cancel on the spot.
Car rental companies are already charging you to use the navigation system in the car you rent. Rented a car a few years ago and use of the navigation system was extra. I just used my phone.
Maybe if they reduced the price of the car, they could contend that you didn't buy those "features" that are subscription-based, only the base car. Then charge extra for those items to be turned on. And a few years later, they'll jack the price of the "base" model to the previous level while keeping the subscription options as they are, of course. I foresee a booming market in unlocking or "jail-breaking" ECUs, especially on cars that no longer have a warranty.
Hi Steve, my 2017 Hyundai Sonata Sport was sold to me, new, with a subscription based option for features including remote start. The subscription was about $20/month. The features were accessed via a cellular phone connection. In January of 2023, the 3G cellular service that the car's system was using was discontinued by the cell phone providers in the US, all of my subscription based features are no longer accessible. There are many class actions underway at this time. I think this will be a very difficult issue going forward for any subscription base system, future maintenance.
You actually do pay a monthly fee in most cases to use a shower... It's called your water bill or in some places it's part of sewer bill or if you live off the grid, rainwater or local underground harvesting ...good for you!
@@NaNslx that's apples to oranges my guy, you are paying an outside service for water to be purified and carried to your shower vs arbitrarily paying a builder after their job is finished, you get no value out of that as a consumer
@@NaNslx Water, nor electricity come with the house. The builder doesnt install either one as its a resource. They only install the lines to obtain that resource. More accurately, its buying a house, yet continually paying taxes on it even if its paid off.
In the electronic test instrument industry it has been practiced for many years, not on subscription, but you have to buy codes to access the full functionality of the device. If you want all functions enabled you may have to pay double the sticker price. The computer software that goes with the test instruments are often subscription based, but you can usually use most of the functions without it.
I used to work for a printing business and I was surprised to learn that when you buy large scale digital printers you have to pay millions for the machine, and then you have to pay more for each sheet you run. (Not counting the toner, paper, and maintenance supplies)
You are surprised !? You wrote a check for "millions" and you did not read the contract ? I bet that what you really mean, is that you are paying, by the sheet, for a maintenance contract. A maintenance contract that pays for parts and for a trained service technician to show up within a few hours to repair it. The more you run the printer, the more wear and tear on the machine. This type of contract has been used for decades not only on commercial digital printers but on office copy machines. Nothing new. I am surprised at how many business owners have spent months making a decision and then claim to be "surprised". I have seen this many times. I find it amazing.
@@steveducell2158 I said I WAS surprised, past tense. I did not write a check for the printer, I had just started working there and knew nothing of the business until a co-worker explained it to me. The pay per sheet wasn't part of the service contract. That was a separate thing, as I found out when I was stuck doing the maintenance for a bit b/c of some snafu with business paying for the maintenance contract, yet we were still getting charged per sheet.
@@Callsign_Sturm , same here for washing machines. We bought new appliances around 2010, and I thought they would last at least until our children grew up. Not one of the appliances we bought is still in running condition, and the first to die broke down around year two. By five years in, they all needed at least one repair that would cost $300-1000. We still have the fridge my father in law gave us for free, which was twenty years old at the time, and it runs like a champ 36 years into its life. Never once had to call for a repair. When my thousand dollar washer quit working, and the matching drier was underperforming, I had my husband pick up an old set off the curb that was being thrown away. I fixed it using youtube repair tutorials and parts that were easy to get. One set of agitator "dogs", one drier drum belt, and a heating element later, the ugly, beat up, out of fashion, low tech models don't fail. I'd rather have an ugly set that runs than a houseful of useless, shiny, immaculate junk. One thing is for certain, before these product makers think up ways to charge their customers on both ends, they might first consider raising their quality standard, and it might just solve whatever revenue shortfalls they have imagined. I will do without before I let them take my money for granted. Cheers!
After market bypass kits. My car didn't have cruise control when I bought it. However, the onboard computer had the CC already in it. All I added was an inexpensive controller and I have CC. New cars have lots of features on them that people don't know that they already have. Just pay to have the factory or dealer add a button.
This is going to create a demand for an after-market part that bypasses the subscription feature by fooling it into either not being able to turn off the feature or by saying "yes" every time the computer asks if the subscription is active. And then the following argument about right to repair, like what we see from super expensive farm equipment. As a professional who could manufacture such an after market part... I will be watching. =D
The most common example I can think of is navigation systems. The vehicles I have purchased since 2007 all have GPS systems. They all came with free updates for a set period. After that period you have to buy the updates that give you the latest maps, including where your nearest McD's is. Don't buy the updates and you can still use the nav system, but it slowly becomes inaccurate as roads change. Most are a set price for a single current map, some do four updates a year, some do only one.
I think the bigger question is whether or not the auto companies own the car since they have retained some of the "bundle or rights". A couple of law suits holding that the auto companies are owners of the car and thus liable in the event of some horrible accident would put a quick end to this practice.
@@johnc2438 Search for it on the Internet. It has to do with what you get when you own a piece of property, whether it be real or personal property. It includes among others the right to use it, the right to lease or rent it, the right to dispose of it, etc.
The only way I would go for this is if say the auto manufacturer retains ownership of the heated seats or whatever feature applies, and you rent the use of them from the manufacturer. This also means that the manufacturer is responsible for all repairs and maintenance of the heated seats for the duration of you being willing to continue paying for their use.
This same subscription model has been going rampant in the electronics test equipment industry. High performance features are baked into the hardware, you have to pay substantially more to "unlock" them. It can end up doubling or tripling the cost of the equipment. For reference, the initial cost can exceed the cost of even a luxury car.
Software too, Adobe is infamous for revoking customer's old perpetual licenses to force them onto their subscription model. Louis Rossman also had a case where an expensive piece of music software ($500 base price with expensive music packs) is now forcing customers to upgrade to a newer version that's subscription based. No, they're not getting any compensationfor their initial purchase and revocation of their perpetual license.
Steve, _America_ is _not_ a country! If someone says "I am an American!", that correctly means they live in any one of 35 countries which are in America.
Another issue with the auto manufacturers building hardware into your car that you own, but which is inoperable unless you pay a subscription fee, is that it adds unwanted weight which impacts fuel efficiency. So, there is an ongoing cost to having the disabled hardware installed in your vehicle that will add up over time.
I've owned purely BMWs for nearly 15 years... I had never and will never own any vehicle that requires a subscription for something wholly contained within the vehicle (Internet service, for example, would be a different story). I've also installed heated seat kits from China in a BMW. The seat heating cost $45 at the time and worked great.
Can you require the manufacturer to remove the heated part of the seat, because it add weight to the vehicle and costs you money to haul it around in the form of lower mileage? Or can I charge them $'s per month to haul their non-implemented hardware around.
No subscription to heat up my car seats. I grew up in the '90s and I remember that technology. If they were able to do it in the '90s for the set fee I paid for the car why do I need to subscribe?
My '23 Tundra came with a navigation system, very nice, really Big screen, actually could read the map, very nice. Some months later they offered an upgrade that didn't install correctly, I took it to the dealer and they fixed it. Then some months later I started getting ads on the thing for a 'subscription' that I ignored and now it doesn't work. At no time during the sales presentation or afterwards when I brought it back to have the 'upgrade' installed was the idea of a 'subscription fee' ever presented to me, Tundras ain't cheap and this entertainment system was a pricy upgrade as well. I'm I screwed? I really like both the truck and the dealer (I pay MSRP for the deal, got a good trade offer, and got 4% financing). I understand the charge for sat radio, that's for programming from a third (unrelated) party but to use the GPS. I have paid for 'upgrades' on GPS systems, that's for a newly undated database, on airplanes have to get this every 28 days, but you can still use the old one even though it ain't legal. Another annoying thing is that after the upgrade it started asking for a pin#, again nobody ever told be about this, is it going to happen that besides the car key I'm going to have to remember some secret handshake # and damn I have four cars and a tractor, since they set the pin I can't get the same one for all and that would probably be wrong and I've have the internet police on my case. I'm glad I'm old, the krap is getting to me.
I just got a Toyota and it has GPS. I was told that for 4 years it was free, but then there will be a subscription cost to continue to use it. Since my car has Apple Car Play, which has three GPS applications (Apple Maps, Google maps, and Waze) I don't use the car's GPS system, so I suspect I won't miss it when it goes away.
Extending the automakers' illegal grifting to its logical equivalent would mean that Dyson could sell you a vacuum cleaner; then charge you a monthly fee to use it. If equipment on the car was paid for in the purchase price, then your title excludes manufacturers' control.
I grew up in Columbus Ohio. When I was a kid, in the late 1970's, the Catholic church sold houses, but you did not buy the land, you got a 99 year lease on the land.
I am glad (heartened) that people are getting this!!!! The pushback, if it grows, is that people NEED to vote with their dollars! What's the point of paying for an item (considerations!) if you're not owning it? 🤬
@@TheTimeForChange44 YES!!! I can't put it any better. If you really think about it, people vote with their dollars every day. Now the real way to vote with our dollars is to not support the LGBHDTV community agenda. That is destroying everything...even movies that were once great like Star Wars.
Yeah….and I thought people would refuse to use self check out for shopping. And once people begin to comply with reduced services, accept decreased portions or quality, it spreads. We actually do have power, if people would just be as sensible as you assume.
@@Mulberrysmilethere are actual upsides to self-checkout for the customers though, or at least some of them. In my experience, I can check out myself about twice as fast as the average worker. The layout of a group of self checkout registers all served by the same waiting line also helps move the line line much faster, as the speed people move through is closer to that of the fastest person in line rather than the slowest. Also, since my Walmart only ever had 2-3 registers open at a time even before self-checkout, it's made a remarkable difference in checkout speed. All that is to say, even if there is no benefit to *you* for self-checkout, there is to a decent percentage. By contrast, the only advantages to these subscriptions for things you paid for is the dealer, not the customer.
When I took contact law as part of my engineering education (in Canada, and a couple of decades ago), I was told that there were seven (7) essential elements that must be present in order for that contract to be binding and enforceable. 1) Identification (all parties must be identifiable and known to each other), 2) Offer (there must be a specific and defined process or trade), 3) Acceptance (all parties must agree to the terms of the offer), 4) Consideration (an exchange of something of value for all parties, which usually means a product or service in exchange for money, but it can be anything that is considered of value), 5) Agreement (all parties have formed an affirmative opinion to enter into a contract, 6) Competency/capacity (parties are entering into the contract in a mentally sound state and have the capacity for informed consent, with no undue deficiencies such as intoxication, inebriation, mentally debilitating medical condition or drug influence), 7) Legality (none of the previous elements can include an illegal request, action or subject). On point seven (7), I always found that interesting in that a bunch of criminals can't enter into a contract to (for example) rob a bank, and then sue the getaway driver for breach of contract if the driver doesn't show up.
Steve, if auto manufacturers charge car owners subscription fees to use features already in the vehicle, the people like me will come in and "unlock" those features for a one time fee.
I won't have a problem with being sold a smart car that has built in sensors, heaters, and other things you have to pay a subscription for. I will have a problem if they take issue with me plugging a laptop into it, reprogramming the car (violating any warranty but who cares) and using it as I see fit.
@@Sarcasmarkus That only works on devices that use switches for inputs. Devices that only accept software commands on a vehicle-wide data bus can't be bypassed that way. The only way out is to build and program your own controller to send those messages then correctly receive and process the responses.
@@Sarcasmarkus Ive been thinking about bypassing the "safety" features on my rider mower that makes the mower deck shut off every time I hit a bump, lean into a turn or go into reverse. Same basic idea. Soon the mower deck will be a subscription. "Oh, you want to MOW with your mower - thats extra, we thought you just wanted to drive places without paved roads but with smooth grass at 6mph and have a mower deck to admire while you did it".
@@kensherwin4544depending on the device like heated seats you just bypass the control mechanism all together and switch the actual relay that causes power to flow. But who’s going to ghetto up a 50-150k vehicle.
I imagine they would try to use the software angle like software developers use to justify subscriptions since you can make any feature on a car be involved with software. "The heated seats won't run without the PID temperature control software" for example. While sidestepping the hardware side of things. They do that on CNC milling machines and lathes for basic software features like macros (not as a subscription as far as I am aware but as a feature you buy once).
With the price of vehicles now, they should not expect, nor receive, any additional compensation. It pissed me off that it was going to cost over $100 to download the update for the in-car navigation in our truck, and then leave it running (burning gas) for 1 to 4 hours for the update to install. I spent $15 for a phone holder and use my Google Maps.
What are potential liabilities for dealers or manufacturers of disabling installed safety features that lead to the death of a vehicle's occupants because the operator failed to subscribe for the features use?
The only way I could see this possibly working is if they don't charge for that option of the vehicle. But we all know when you purchase a new vehicle you get an itemized listing of the options and add ons that you buy and you sure as hell know that the infotainment system navigation and heated seats will be part of that so you own that specifically.
The remote start feature should be free. You own the vehicle. You own the key fob. The signal from the key fob goes directly to the vehicle that you own. The signal does not go through internet or cell towers. How can it be legal to make a subscription for that? Also, this reminds me of the battle in the gaming market. There was an argument over the right to have physical copies of the games you purchased over just digital copies. I believe some of the worries came true over time. I was a while back and I admit i did not pay attention to the issue too much because i was not a big gamer, but there was discussions hanging out there on the internet somewhere in the past.
There are also remote start systems that do use cell towers to control the engine, locks, lights and temperature remotely from a smart phone. The car also acts like a phone itself, sending emails and texts to the owner when doors are left unlocked, time for service, check engine light on, etc. Charging for the cell service to do all that makes sense.
The story on that whether owning legally a physical copy of a game allowed you mod it. Historically this had been true and not a violation as long as you weren’t reselling the game or making it available otherwise(diminishing the profit of the original game). But through that battle basically it was determined that even if you are buying a game you are only purchasing a license to that game meaning you don’t own it, you own a lease and if you violate that inherent contract you forfeit ownership.
This won't be true in the future. Cars are starting to control these features with an app. The app connects to a server and sends the command, the car connects to a server to receive the commend. The car company is paying a monthly fee to operate the server (Amazon/AWS), so the server fees are the 'consideration'. Next they remove the feature from the key FOB or they connect to key FOB to the server as well.
@@MarcWithaC-BlenderAndGameDev What is the benefit to the consumer of moving from a self contained system to a system requiring an input from a phone>app>car? If you don’t have the fundamental ability to turn a car on or off you don’t own it therefore shouldn’t pay for any maintenance/taxes related to it. If I hack my cars computer and send the signal myself am I then breaching or infringing, this is a slippery slope and ultimately doesn’t make much sense.
Connecting features to the internet means you can start the car from miles away instead of just 50 feet. You could turn on 'dog mode' if you forgot from the restaurant. (This would be dangerous for a non-electric car), and yes, the seat heater as well. I agree about the ownership issues 100%. You're not allowed to alter your XBox, or your 300 thousand dollar commercial tractor, and soon you may not be 'allowed' to alter your car. If they're charging for the feature, you can be sure they have something to prevent you from 'manually' turning it on and off.@@beastlyshotzful
My daughter purchased a new car last weekend. During the transaction, the dealer asked her if she wanted the CHMSL (center high mounted stop light) to blink. Not really caring, she said, "Sure." The dealer acted like this was going to require installation of a part but was actually just a setting within a control module. It took less than two minutes for some pimply-faced service tech to enable the option with his electronic tool. While my daughter did not pay for this "service" I wonder how many customers were charged a fee or, at least, led to believe the dealer was giving them something for at no charge to sweeten the deal. A few years ago, a friend also purchased a car where the dealership enabled some feature the same way. I wish I could recall the feature, but I do remember shaking my head when she told me they charged her to turn something on.
check out ALPHAOBD software for "stalantis" cars OR FORSCAN for fords and VAGCOM for VW group vehicles these software packages allow you to do stuff the DEALERS can NOT do 2014 RAM I added 2018+ infotainment added EURO style separate turn / brake lights electronic climate control and was planning on heated seat and steering wheel all on a LOW trim truck
I think we might finally be getting to the point where consumers are hurting financially enough to start paying attention to this stuff in numbers large enough to make a difference.
They picked a really stupid time to push their luck with how cost of living is. People are going to be really mad when their car is demanding money they don't have.
Here's the other deal if they're forcing you to pay subscriptions for things like heated seats, electric windows, things that are installed in the vehicle when you bought it, then you didn't really buy it. If I have to pay a monthly car payment to purchase an outright own my vehicle, but I still have to pay a subscription fee to the manufacturer in order to use my vehicle, then it stands to reason that I do not own my vehicle I am simply leasing it but I'm responsible for every single thing bumper to bumper on the vehicle. Also if this stuff is subscription-based and I go to sell my vehicle in a private sale is that transferable? Who would buy a used vehicle from some lady down the road when they would have to rent the features of the vehicle from a manufacturer? I guess since they're not getting their way with the right to repair laws now they're going to nickel and dime me through the features. If you are not charging enough to recoup what you have in to the manufacturing of that vehicle and make enough of a profit to continue r&d while still slipping some to the shareholders then you're not charging enough for your vehicle. But something tells me all this subscription-based stuff is not going to be included in profit sharing etc. it's just like when you buy a piece of big equipment from an equipment dealer they're not making their money on the sale of the equipment they're making their money on the service contact that is in place for several years after the sale.
What bothers me most is the idea of a remote kill switch being standard for all new cars where law enforcement has the ability to shut your car off. It could so easily be abused or even hacked and cause major accidents and injuries. What’s to stop someone from playing around and shutting down one or worse thousands of cars with a keystroke.
The way GM used to do it was with an app. You paid a subscription to use remote start via their app and you could also lock the car, unlock it, or even set off the panic alarm. However not paying for the app didn't prohibit you from using those features in person with the remote. This whole idea of having to pay to physically use something in the car is complete nonsense and anyone who thinks this is acceptable needs to really step back and evaluate what they're going to be spending over the life of the vehicle.
One way I can think I MIGHT be willing is if the manufacturers agree to a lifetime guaranty/warranty of the item, for the life of the item (not the car - if the car is junked & the item is harvested at a junkyard for use in a different vehicle, the manufacturer could still turn it off at any time as they would have remote control over it). In addition, if the item would have to be replaced, a new lifetime warranty/guaranty would have to be in place for the replacement item. That being said, I still think it's a ridiculous idea on the part of some very greedy people who are already jacking car prices too much. If they are ever foolish enough to try it, I can easily see many backyard mechanics & videos on how to hack/bypass the system. Not to mention the numerous lawsuits that would be filed (as you said, unjust enrichment) which could easily turn into a class action lawsuit. Great vlog today, Steve!
Video Games commonly do this. They put add-ons in the CD you buy with the original game but you have to pay to unlock them. Even though you already own the data you purchased they have to unlock them. A similar situation happens with Tesla where they build all cars to have an extended range but you have to pay to unlock that extended range from the battery. Seems very scammy and I hope the law fixes this situation.
Matlab does this. When you buy it, you get a software key that unlocks only the features you purchase. Should you with to buy another feature, they get the money and update your key. All of a sudden you now have the new feature of the correct version to work with everything else you have.
"They put add-ons in the CD you buy with the original game but you have to pay to unlock them. Even though you already own the data you purchased they have to unlock them. " That's normally a 1x fee though, and not a subscription. Even battlepass "subscriptions" you normally buy the "season" and then are done. This is different.
@@vancomycinb1193It was also said that you could pay for them outright or just monthly. That way if the original purchaser was a tightwad a subsequent owner could elect to have them (heated seats)
Sadly, the “law” is getting paid by the big companies to be there. No chance this goes away. It’s just a money grab and will create more division between the haves and have-nots.
If buying isn't the same as owning, then piracy isn't the same as stealing.
I own a 2018 European branded vehicle (not a BMW), the Base trim version of which the seats are neither heated nor powered. When putting together my Build-Sheet, I noticed several other electrically-powered features which were also unavailable. I concluded there was a difference between the wiring-harness of the Base trim and that of the Upscale trims (of which there were three). All car manufacturers are attempting to reduce the complexity of having parts which are only slightly different from one another. Previously, if one purchased or leased the base trim BMW one didn't get heated seats anyway. [I purchased an Upscale trim for its Sport Seats which are of the same construction as the Top trim (performance) model.]
Noice!
It must be considered that there are other ways to acquire something; such as receiving it as a gift, or inheriting it. A lease doesn't count, because that's a contract with an end date. Either way (gift or inheritance), you own it without having bought it. But thanks for putting the idea that this is piracy into my head!
Weird edge case. Nintendo sold two gadgets called the NES classic and SNES Classic. They were basically Retro Pis running emulation software and the games were the same Roms Nintendo has been trying to purge from the internet.
If I was in Europe, I'd entitled to copy/remove those rom files and play those games on whatever hardware I saw fit for my personal use in perpetuity. EU law says you're entitled to alter and use the hardware and software YOU purchased as long as you don't redistribute it or profit off it.
It's insane we don't have those protections here in America. I'm not allowed to crack my phone and remove bloatware because Samsung removed consumer access to the dev tools.
"You wouldn't download a car!"
Well.. About that..
The erosion of consumer ownership is one of the most dystopian things that we can watch happening in real time
Yes! They are detaching ownership of knowledge and objects from the individual.
Company knows the truth. Company owns what you have. Company sells your personal data to the point where you don't even "own" yourself more than the cattle at a meat factory do.
Right in front of our eyes 👀
absolutely
I completely agree. I feel like companies being able to remove access to things you've paid for should be considered theft.
World economic forum: "You will own nothing and be happy!"
I guess we now know one of the reasons these companies fight "right to repair" laws.
Just go to that one and only John Deere dealer within 1000 miles and wait for the part to get made, delivered and installed. Should only take a couples weeks, few months at worst. What's the problem?
@@BlackJesus8463 The problem!? You didn't factor in global supply chain issues and just how hard it is to get heavy equipment into the heartland, plus seeing as there's likely only one OEM and you're likely not the only person with the issue; I'd say you need to tack on at least another 2~3 months minimum! If you're lucky
@@MegasXaosI'm 99% sure he was being sarcastic when he started with "the one and only John Deere dealer within 1000 miles"
@@BlackJesus8463 I agree but my point is that the aftermarket would largely take care of the subject of this video if they are allowed to do so.
Now? I've known about some of their reasons for a while now. This is just the tip of it. The others are so they can software lock their parts so nobody but THEM can do repair work, just like how John Deere and Apple do it using loopholes for software code that get around their requirement to provide parts.
Right to repair laws needs to be a law across the country
needs to be added to the US Constitution.
This is perfect! When the cops pull you over and request to look in your trunk, you just say that you haven't subscribed to that feature 🙂
The manufacturers will simply give the police a "master key" to remotely activate the trunk on your car. Police can shut a car down if its stolen. See Steve's video on that.
@@JeanPierreWhite Receiver antenna for that master key was broken due to excessive heat caused by the Global warming. Happened to my Jeep right after I bought it
😂
@@JohnyshmitI love how everything that goes wrong is blamed on global warming.
Remember those old TV ads against internet "piracy?" We laughed when they said "you wouldn't download a car," because it was just such an absurd notion, but auto makers seem to be trying to turn it into a viable alternative to their predatory services.
You can pirate the Tesla speed increases. In a way, you CAN download a faster car.
Then you have Bender's anti-piracy warning.
If I ever find a way to download a car, I will totally do it.
What if they charge you as part of the software license for the firmware that operates the heated seats?
Then they lobby the government making pirated cars an arrest-able offense
Dumbest situation ever! 'Hey dude, if you want your icemaker on your new fridge to make crushed ice instead of just cubed it will cost you $5 a month.'
DO NOT give them that kind of ideas
No, they are telling you the only way the ice maker works at all is if you pay $5 a month.
@@barnabusdoyle4930 That's Admission to supplying a broken product and thus a lawsuit.
Don’t give LG any ideas dude thats next lmao
Then they would have to make ice makers that actually work
Imagine buying a refrigerator and having to pay a subscription to use the ice maker.
or the light
Better yet, the level of cold you can keep the refrigerator.
Well you gave them the idea
It is like watch Videos on RUclips for free with zillions of commercial pops in every now and then Or pay for subscription to watch commercial free Videos nowadays mostly everything comes with string attached.
@@AlexanderMian don't watch ads and don't pay those bastards. Use an ad blocker
Thank you for bringing this to light too... have been watching Louis Rossman speak on it too. Hoping that car manufacturers stop making things subscription, without governments forcing them to do so. It is a terrible money grab.
Don't like it? Don't sign up. Simple.
@@Cotronixco Very simple for extras like Sirius/XM, sure... because there are other very convenient options that are just as easy to use with the system (unless they start making ports charge only). It is also a service. For heated seats or auto start via fob that is already installed, not quite. Sure, one could put heated seat covers in... and could see if Viper or other alarm/car start will work with the car (will likely see the industry make it hard for that too)... but if the hardware is in the car, has been free for decades, and is not a service that requires bandwidth or royalties, then it is just a money grab and another point of failure for the car as it gets older.
@@todaresq Then don't buy it. Simple stuff.
@@Cotronixco the point is if not stopped now, and all companies do it, there won’t be any new car option to buy. I understand why you want things simple. Not everyone is capable of seeing the big picture. It is not as if your simple answers are unknown to me, Louis, Steve, or any others not likening how this change will affect the future of car ownership. The simple answer should be car companies not screwing over the buyer (or leasee if they get their way). It really is not simple in the long term… it is now, sure.
@@todaresq The free enterprise system is very simple. The can of worms you open when you ask government to control deals that two parties have already agreed on is the problem here.
This practice has been around for a long time. 15 years ago, I purchased a CD player that came in two versions, with or without remote control. I took a punt and purchased the significantly cheaper version, suspecting the maker only made one version but included the remote controller for the more expensive package.
Sure enough, my universal controller that I had for my TV operated the CD player remotely.
That's different as the remote wasn't part of the package you bought etc. What you experienced is basically standard industry practice. Said practice is how BMW ended up putting seat heating components in all seats like they did. Because it's cheaper to just produce one model than it is to try to produce two models with the associated increased costs. If it was cheaper for BMW to remove the components they would of and we'd never have this situation.
It's been common practice in the computer industry (electronics in general) for a long time now to bin components on production. For example CPUs are complex pieces of silicon requiring a lot of things to go right to produce. THe goal might be a four core CPU but if you have yield/production issues you might see a "high" failure rate on the pass/fail QC tests. Those failed units might work perfectly fine as dual cores. So they sell the four core version as the premium and the dual core version as a budget CPU. So if you look back you'll find that some CPUs were "famous" for having hidden cores that you could unlock. So your dual core might actually run fine as a tricore since only one of the four cores actually failed. No CPU manufacturer tried to retroactively charge people for getting better hardware than intended.
It really feels like the leaders in the auto industry are looking at micro transactions in gaming and drooling..
People do not like being called out for their wrong behavior. Keep up the good work Steve.
What if they charge you as part of the software license for the firmware that operates the heated seats?
The worst thing is that these things run through the manufacturer's servers.
Sooner or later they will turn the server off and tell owners that the car is 'no longer supported'.
That happens a lot in the tech world.
I had a whole device bricked by the manufacturer when it was just a year old - they offered to sell me their latest device at a discounted price, which was actually more than the price I paid for the original!.
Needless to say I told them stick it where the sun don't shine.
Or they have terribly scaled servers. I have a Nissan Leaf, and if you use the mobile app, it takes a good minute for the car to do anything you request via the mobile app.
Honestly the first thing that came to mind was fighting games with characters already on the disc and fully operational locked behind DLC. Car companies are taking notes off some of the shittiest parts of the game publishers, wait for "surprise mechanics" in your $90k car.
"Sooner or later they will turn the server off and tell owners that the car is 'no longer supported'."
Of course.. thats how they push you into buying a new car so you can do it all over again.
Car only supported for original purchaser. Additional owners must re-purchase the feature. Additionally, the contract was with the purchaser only, so other drivers aren't covered without a per-vehicle PDL (per-driver-license) for each feature available for an additional monthly fee. Naturally, these terms may be updated at any time without notice and over-the-air updates are a condition of using the vehicle. (aka - 'standard' features when you purchase may be reclassified as a limited time feature at a later date - but don't worry, monthly 'driver experience' packs may be purchased at the web store...)
@@seanclark8452 that's already happened too IIRC it was Tesla and Steve covered it like a year ago?
The fatal flaw of these subscription services is that inevitably these options will no longer be supported making their obsolescence by design much more overt.
It happened to Lexus and others that used 3G wireless. In 2022, imagine having a four year old car and your subscription services just stopped working.
@@Callsign_Sturm
I would think just modifying the system to work using bluetooth instead of 3G/5G would work too. Having subscriptions for both the car and phone are kind of redundant, just use the phone.
That’s another thing that bothers me with all of this new car technology, my phone already has it. Get rid of the manufacturer specific junk and just make a universal infotainment system that operates using the phone.
@@inthesun3884 We're already past that point. The manufacturers have argued subscriptions allow them to reduce costs by streamlining their production line. That means everyone gets the same hardware.
@@Callsign_Sturm
It’s just unbelievable to me that an automaker like Lexus, which is known for exceptional customer service, wouldn’t devise a solution for those customers. Heck, many owners probably hadn’t even paid off their car loan yet.
I must admit, I’m not tech savvy, so I couldn’t do anything about it myself, but just like the factory radios for my old truck that I’ve seen for sale on ebay that have been upgraded for bluetooth, a knowledgeable person like yourself could do what you’re talking about and make a few bucks.
@@inthesun3884
Once the certified mail return receipt is signed for, just contact your bank and report additional charges as unauthorized. Or just cancel that card and get a replacement. Either way is a hassle though.
Steve: "Dennis, this isn't fair."
Dennis: "Yeah, it's a matter of 'consideration'."
Steve: "Hmm, I didn't *_consider_* that."
This is why I love my older rides... ain't nobody switching stuff on or off except me.
Thanks again Steve.
I like your argument about “ if it breaks” since you are renting the feature I feel the automakers should be on the hook for the repair. This could extend to remote start not working anymore or a broken heated seat. As much as they would like it the automakers can’t claim it’s a service but leave the customer in the lurch as soon as it’s an inconvenience or an expense for them.
All automakers will do is start charging you rental insurance the same way car rental companies do. Because that's exactly the bulshit they would do after thinking up of subscriptions models for cars.
If the makers want to be on the hook for maintenance of those things, then they need to lower the cost of the cars, and then I’ll gladly pay a subscription fee to them and be off the hook for repairs.
Great to see this. Subscriptions for heated seats is outrageous!
Heated seats is outrageous. Think about it. What innovative idea will they stuff in cars next, a coffee maker? 😂
Just fart in the seat and generate your own "heated seat". Just don't tell them or they'll charge you for that, too!
As Steve said, this is just testing the waters. Virtually everything on modern vehicles is electric and controlled through one or more of the computers in the vehicle. Power brakes, power steering, ABS, traction control, engine start/stop, engine /transmission performance, vehicle lights, power windows, power locks, power seats, heated seats, cooled seats, heated steering wheel, interior lights, and infotainment. One software update and they could control any or all of it remotely or obtain information about its use.
I don't mind paying for something I get value from like satellite radio or WIFI, and currently the GPS update is an optional storage card update.
What I would like and pay for is a couple more cameras for a factory dash cam uploadable to the cloud.
@@RefreshingShamrock "Heated seats is outrageous."
For petrol cars, heat from the engine is free and it makes sense to dump some of it into the passenger compartment. But for electric cars, heating the passenger space comes at the price of reduced range; heated seats are a reasonable comprise that will conserve range whilst maintaining some level of driver comfort.
@@RefreshingShamrockWhy? Heated seats and steering wheels make it much more comfortable much quicker in the winter. Sure the garage may be heated but if you are parked all day at work it helps tremendously.
Heard "the buy your right to a seat at a concert and no refund because we couldn't sell that right to another person" and my thought was immediately, how have airlines not been sued out of existence for overbooking flights?
Presumably the cost for compensating the people who are left out of a flight is less than the profits from always having a full plane.
I *think* (and i could very likely be wrong) that those who buy a seat on a full flight, are told they are on a wait-list and are not guaranteed a seat. Thats at least how it *should* be.
@@lyianx I'm sure protocols vary. I was once told my flight was full and asked if I could wait three hours for the next one if they paid me handsomely, which I agreed to since I wasn't in a hurry, and they did.
Because it's part of what YOU agreed to when you bought a ticket.
@@VideoArchiveGuy I'm well aware of what BS the airlines put into their fine print. I'm merely being facetious about how a pre-law textbook example calls the practice into question.
I'm hoping they start putting quarter slots in cars, so that we can rent features by the half hour like we used to with vibrating beds in hotels.
That’s what happen to a Joe Chip in Philip K Dick’s Ubik, everything is like that in his apt, he must pay his door and has no money left, so he must ask his visitor to pay for the door 😂
Edit: The novel is from 1966
I haven't seen one of those beds in decades.
The difference is that you are renting the room, not buying it.
Right on the money as always Steve. In these times we live in, grouping these "businesses" with "heroin addicts" makes a disturbing amount of sense. All they want is their next "fix", and they'll do ANYTHING to get it. And they'll push it further at any chance they get. Now imagine this: Your seat belts, airbags and locks don't work because you didn't subscribe to them. Someone steals your car with a flash drive, then T-bones a semi truck and dies. Who's responsible?
T bone steak and next thing you know they charge a subscription for the steak sauce and napkins might as well stay at home and make a tasty dinner
@carlbigsbee1468 good luck without subscription to a coocktop. Better to use a wood fire.
Don't like it? Don't sign up. Simple.
A better model would be to give away the car for FREE then charge for everything like starting the engine, listening to the radio, using a/c, power door/windows, opening the trunk, using the Reverse, using the wipers, etc. It would be funny to see what people avoid using to save a few bucks also.
Now that would be understandable
The printer model. Printer ink In cartridges that will crash your printer permanently if you don’t use the company brand.
Communism in retail form.
@@july8xx. A local store had HP printers on sale (not that I needed one, anyway). Saw they were HP printers, I ceased all consideration from purchasing one.
That is basically the direction. Basically the only way to justify a subscription in my opinion is to allow for buying the feature outright or paying a lower subscription cost. IE: The feature costs say $2400, and cost $100/mo. After 2 years the subscription will be more expensive. However, if you only plan to own the car for a year, it's a nice discount. That could definitely be expanded to cover everything. So everything is free but you need to pay a subscription. Oh wait, that's a lease. :) (I've always consider leases to be basically car subscriptions)
Next time one of the car manufacturing super-geniuses runs one of the last of the car companies in america into the dirt and goes to the congresscritters to ask for another bail-out, let your congresscritter know that the car manufacturer super-genius neglected to pay for the monthly taxpayers give a damn feature on their economy, so they are out of luck on that bail-out.
GM is quietly getting billions in loans and is asking for billions in grants, right now to keep operating. The amounts all manufacturers have spent on EV development has put all manufacturers in trouble.
Sadly, our congresscritters operate on a subscription basis as well. Are you making your payments to them? I guarantee the carmakers are.
@@TheBandit7613all the while, Mary Barra is a billionaire.
I have no problem with GM and Ford making a profit.
BUT if they get government guaranteed loans, the CEO and board need to make $1/ year
and NO stock options until the loan is repaid.
And they source their parts from China
@@brokenrecord3095😢
They are looking for a steady stream of income without actually doing anything. But I guarantee they still charge you for it upfront.
I know it was said, in the future we will rent everything and own nothing. I hope everyone makes sure to take a stand against these practices. This is the road to that and if we don't fight it now then we let it happen to ourselves.
the thing is the IMF with there "own nothing and be happy" they were NOT predicting THIS at all and they pictured a FAR BETTER "world" where everything would be rented AS NEEDED
need a Lawn mower use ap and borrow one and done it goes away NO storage NO maintenance that is the BE HAPPY part
the reality is FAR WORSE with BUYING it THEN RENTING the use BUT still paying for maintenance and storage ETC
Yup part of NWO agenda2021/agenda2030 'you will own nothing and be happy' bs.
This is why I no longer use Microsoft Office. Once they went to the subscription model with Office 365, I moved over to Libre Office (WHICH IS FREE) and it works almost identical.
I also refuse to use Adobe products because they only have a subscription model. Instead I use Affinity.
@@jasonriddellThe World Economic Forum (Klaus, i.e. Dr. Evil) said that, not the International Monetary Fund. The WEF does not want to free us from the problems of ownership, they seek to enslave us to their rental agreements. Their plan is for us to lose our ability to own our own lawmowers, cars, and even houses. They seek our subjugation by removing the very notion of ownership from everyone who does not belong to the Davos group.
Steve, this already happens with high end test electronics. When you buy an oscilloscope, the going price is about $10K per GHz, however, the whole series is capable of the maximum, they just restrict the frequency range with software. An acquaintance had a salesman let him use a display model for a few weeks, it was the highest option instrument they made and probably cost $150K (it went over 10 GHz). He told the salesman he wanted tone, but only need 3.5 GHz. The salesman, said he could keep that one if he liked, and they just sent a firmware update through the internet that turned off all the options he didn't want to pay for.
Hackerman time
Exactly, and the hacks to enable features are already out there (he says with his hacked Rigol...)
cheap as RIGAL scopes are "famous" for being hacked into BETTER models
I used to see that happen with industrial instruments. (Transmitters, analyzers, valves, etc.) I haven’t seen them doing that lately. (I’m not saying some don’t still do that). I think it’s simply a matter of manufacturers realizing it upsets the customer and it’s actually worth more money to them in the long run to unlock everything. There is nothing more infuriating to a customer that may but thousands of these things asking for a feature, have the salesman quote him and added price and then punch a code into the device and walk away. Especially if another manufacture says, "No, we don’t do that. Your instrument already has it.)
I can tell you one thing. Don't expect the dealer to support you if you have any issues with the subscriptions.
Exactly!!! 🎯🎯🎯
As an American, it is my responsibility to ensure that the C-suite executives each have new yachts each year. I require my government to support this. /s
You mean "enforce this"! 🙂
As a former car dealer I also would like to add the short life of software support in the auto industry....meaning anything from security updates to the time frame they will even offer the subscription.
This started with video games and their DLC subs, Season subs, monthly fees to play MMO RPGs *after* paying $70+ for the game and microtransactions.
I'd love to see you do something on what happens to "purchased" movies & TV shows when services like Amazon lose their licensing or you cancel your account.
Infinity Train and the more recent Discovery fiasco has really pushed me to digitize my DVD Blu-ray collection in a DRM free format. I'm done with "walled garden" digital media since there's no guarantee a purchase won't be revoked at any time. No, you won't be compensated. Doesn't matter if the content was purchased one day or five years ago.
I need to figure out how to do the same with my Audible collection because Amazon has already proven they will yank digital purchases off users accounts and devices.
SONY and Discovery had a situation where Discovery content users "purchased" was removed from there library without a refund - it was walked back but they TRIED
This is a rare channel that gets down to the critical details without all the fluff, good stuff, keep it coming.
But Lehto if we take away this subscription model how will executives afford a second yacht for their children? Think of the children Lehto!
Dont forget "War on Drugs" TM and "Anti-Terrorism" TM ; the other two root passwords to bypass the Constitution.
The biggest thing I think is universal for all businesses is the fact that eventually your 10% per year growth model eventually becomes unsustainable no matter what and there is too much of a standard of greed out there meaning all think a 0 growth quarter even is undesirable regardless of existing profit margins ..so they have to come up with such things to achieve the growth they desire on a consistent basis ...really it boils down to when is enough actually enough greed dictates never sadly ..
I’ve never understood why companies are held to the impossible standard of high growth. It is unsustainable and makes no sense. If a company is profitable, as long as there isn’t a significant drop in revenue there shouldn’t be a problem. Always growing is impossible.
But the investors! They need a tenfold return on their investment! Isn't there like an actual legal duty for companies to increase their share values for shareholders?
Well then your 401k and investments wouldnt grow. Prominent investors that have the companies ear only care about making money, not supporting a company for lack of a better word.
@@barnabusdoyle4930
@@someguy4489 Used to be companies just paid out a dividend and called it a day. The dividend was your return. Now companies don't want to do that so they only way to get investor returns is to increase the stock price. But dividends are taxable as income so they are less favorable than trying to increase stock price which is only taxable when you sell and is taxed at capital gains rates.
@@barnabusdoyle4930it’s because payroll gets more expensive each year due to yearly pay increases and yearly inflation devalues your revenue. If you make the same amount of money this year as what you made last year, you’ve actually lost a lot of money. Because of this, companies that stagnate are eventually doomed to bankruptcy or downsizing.
The $1M answer is that they're going to claim that the software to control the features need to be updated consistently, and that requires someone to maintain the software, thus the subscription fee. I disagree with this as well (ie. the module to control the heated seats should just freaking work, for example), but this is what they will claim. PS: for my business administration minor way back in the day, I had to take Business Law (included basic contract law), and it was an amazing course. Steve, your channel is a wealth of information and a great resource.
I drive a 19-year-old Lexus in which the heated seats have never had to be repaired, still work perfectly, except the dashboard back-lighting on one of the control knobs is burned out. Not a problem. I know which way to turn the knob to get either heat or air-cooling.
The manufacturers will just design in removable modules. You rent the modules! That’s how they will get around it!
@@roberttimma1023 or do like Volvo did NO remote start on the keyfob if you want remote start NEED TO USE THE APP that is internet enabled so you have to subscribe to a connectivity plan for remote start AND live traffic and "data connection"
@@roberttimma1023 Maybe a universal module that plugs into the infotainment. That way they can get all the subscription controls on one device to minimize production costs.
They will do this subscription to things like heated seats on a Lease. When you lease the car you don't own it. That is the only way I see this happening for subscription services with a car. That extra 50 or $100 a year can really add to the bottom line and that's why they will find a way to do it. A lease is the only way I see it happening. Then when people buy used cars they can hit them with another 1 time charge to turn features on. By then there will probably be an OBD hack LOL
I understand the subscription model for software (Microsoft 365 Office). They've got programmers updating the software all the time or adding new "features". I'm getting value for that subscription: ongoing support. Satellite radio is a subscription because the content providers get paid. But crippling a function for no reason is extortion. "Hello car driver. I've just disabled your brakes. But for $18/month I can turn them back on again."
I don't really. If I have software and it works, let me buy a version without ongoing updates. I don't need all the new features every year. For some especially companies, it may make sense, but for many consumers a permanent single pay version should be available.
@@14trukI prefer that method too. I only subscribe when I have to. Photoshop is one example. I only use it occasionally, but when fixing photos, I really need its features.
The problem with subscriptions is that if you stop paying, they stop working. It's not rent-to-own.
I just encountered the subscription for Micro. 365. I already own it, but Libre Office seems to work just fine and it's free.
Steve, you are brilliant! This is one of the best (and most important) channels on RUclips!
I wonder how these car companies would react if someone hacked their cars to activate these features?
There are a lot of intelligent consumers out there that can. They'll find some way of breaking the wireless link between the car and the car company so that a feature cannot be disabled.
Disable the entire car remotely or send it driving back to the police station as a car with stolen parts after it sends a periodic report of its status, then take you to criminal court for car theft.
You wouldn’t download a car for free, would you? 😂 yes. Yes i would.
@@DKNguyen3.1415If you've bought the car, it's yours to do with as you wish.
If you own it, it’s not their car and you can do whatever you want with your property.
If they want to be able to charge a subscription to customers, they actually need to come up with a compelling subscription based product that consumers would find valuable. Instead they’re just lazy and have decided they don’t need to give you anything in return, they’ll just demand more money because they want it.
I wouldn't mind a subscription for 10 usd if included no questions asked maintenance and replacement in case of unrepairable failure
I already hated that, at least with some makes of vehicles, you cannot buy a new vehicle without signing up for Sirius. The dealers claimed they didn't even have the ability to print sales contracts without including "free" satellite radio subscriptions, which includes sending personal information about yourself to the satellite radio companies to set up the subscription.
That's crazy. "Here's your new car, but you have to subscribe to use the steering wheel." How greedy.
I had spent a few minutes looking for this so take this with a grain of salt (could be my imagination) but I remember Louis Rossmann talking about a biker vest that instantly inflates if the rider gets into an accident but this was on a subscription basis so if that elapsed and you got into a accident (could just be a malfunction or whatever or expired card) it wouldn't deploy... That is where this subscription future is going and it is scary!
Not only do they already sell all the data your car gathers about you, but they also harvest all data off of any phone you connect to the vehicle and sell that as well.
Exactly why GM is dumping CarPlay and Android Auto for their own solution.
Not exactly. It depends on how you’re connecting the phone. The firmware of an iPhone doesn’t allow personal data to be arbitrarily sent via Bluetooth or usb.
@@brkbtjunkie Not necessarily that, but who you send and receive text messages from, and unencrypted Internet traffic like searches.
Many GM vehicles already set themselves up as Wi-Fi hotspots.
The distinction in my mind that makes subscription fees fair is when there's an ongoing cost for supplying the feature. Map updates, satellite radio, and WiFi Internet qualify but heated seats or CarPlay/Android Auto certainly do not. I appreciate you Steve for articulating this in the language of contract law.
Exactly. The only way to justify something like heated seats is this: You can pay $500 for heated seats, or you can pay a $20/mo subscription. If you plan to have the car for more than 2 years, just pay for the heated seats. Complete BS if you have already bought the car and now they want to charge you a subscription.
You are advocating for these businesses to be able to double dip. You already pay for these services with your data that they are allowed to harvest and sell to whoever will pay the most. You dont seem to understand that YOU are the product to them
@@donsolos That's inapplicable to the examples I specified: map updates are provided by companies like Garmin or Telenav, satellite radio with SiriusXM, in-car WiFi by Verizon or AT&T. These companies business models aren't built like Google's or Facebook's.
@@donsolosAbuse of the data is a different argument. If we assume no ill intent, some services have ongoing costs. For example, they may charge you $10/mo for the cellular connection and streaming. If you could do without and bring your own cell service (such as connecting via WiFi) and everything still works then that would be a fair subscription.
But there are updates to CarPlay/Android Auto on a regular basis too, so the value is in bug fixes.
Having to pay rental fees to use options on a car would be a deal breaker for me. I would buy a different brand of car.
until all the brands are doing it, then you'll be screwed.
@@vancomycinb1193 return to 2002 honda civic
@@vancomycinb1193 and they would. soon as one was able to get away with it, they all would quickly follow.
Every time I hear about stuff like this, I always think back to the idea of that this will cause people to just hack their own car. I hope there are legal stops on this but there's a lot of money in screwing people over.
There's also the additional issue that these items add weight and cost fuel, so the buyer has additional costs even for undesired items. So, since these items add operational expenses, there should actually be a DISCOUNT for them if they are not removable.
That’s like DIRECTV, you pay a monthly fee for the equipment then when it breaks they want to charge you to repair their equipment.
Also like Quicken. I don't use online access, yet I'm required to pay yearly over and over again for the product I already bought. Not only that, but if I accidently hit 'update' because they flash that in front of you along with a do not update button , the update destroys all my reports and I have to start from scratch making them again.
@@musictosoothe. Microsoft, hands down
That's why their equipment sits unused on so many houses
I had a problem with my Direct TV box giving a message on the tv screen that it was too hot and would turn off. I checked the equipment and it was hot but it was not dusty or anything else near it. I called them and they wanted to charge me for new equipment and I said no. They said they would send it free of charge but I needed to pay shipping. I told them no that their product was defective and could have burned my house down. I got a free box without any shipping charge and made sure to check my bill for many months to see if they would try to sneak in a charge.
@@jstokes5582 Same here with DIRECTV on one of my remotes and a Genie receiver. I didn’t argue with them I explained it was their equipment,they would cover all expenses or I would cancel on the spot.
Car rental companies are already charging you to use the navigation system in the car you rent. Rented a car a few years ago and use of the navigation system was extra. I just used my phone.
I feel highly educated after watching this channel
Maybe if they reduced the price of the car, they could contend that you didn't buy those "features" that are subscription-based, only the base car. Then charge extra for those items to be turned on.
And a few years later, they'll jack the price of the "base" model to the previous level while keeping the subscription options as they are, of course.
I foresee a booming market in unlocking or "jail-breaking" ECUs, especially on cars that no longer have a warranty.
Hi Steve, my 2017 Hyundai Sonata Sport was sold to me, new, with a subscription based option for features including remote start. The subscription was about $20/month. The features were accessed via a cellular phone connection. In January of 2023, the 3G cellular service that the car's system was using was discontinued by the cell phone providers in the US, all of my subscription based features are no longer accessible. There are many class actions underway at this time. I think this will be a very difficult issue going forward for any subscription base system, future maintenance.
Steve, I always watch your new vids - you are educating so many of us and it is greatly appreciated.
I keep the tab to his channel open in my browser (on PC), so I never miss a video
It's like buying a house but having to pay the builder a monthly fee for using the shower 😄
You actually do pay a monthly fee in most cases to use a shower... It's called your water bill or in some places it's part of sewer bill or if you live off the grid, rainwater or local underground harvesting ...good for you!
@@NaNslx "having to pay THE BUILDER"
@@NaNslx that's apples to oranges my guy, you are paying an outside service for water to be purified and carried to your shower vs arbitrarily paying a builder after their job is finished, you get no value out of that as a consumer
@@NaNslx Water, nor electricity come with the house. The builder doesnt install either one as its a resource. They only install the lines to obtain that resource. More accurately, its buying a house, yet continually paying taxes on it even if its paid off.
A more accurate assessment would be Trailer Park Logic. You own the house, but still have to pay rent.
In the electronic test instrument industry it has been practiced for many years, not on subscription, but you have to buy codes to access the full functionality of the device. If you want all functions enabled you may have to pay double the sticker price. The computer software that goes with the test instruments are often subscription based, but you can usually use most of the functions without it.
What is wrong with a company disabling features to lower the price, and then you only have to pay for services and features you use?
Back in the nineties a Swedish car company lost a lawsuit over pre-installed heated seats which required a one time ‘installation fee’ to activate.
I used to work for a printing business and I was surprised to learn that when you buy large scale digital printers you have to pay millions for the machine, and then you have to pay more for each sheet you run. (Not counting the toner, paper, and maintenance supplies)
You are surprised !? You wrote a check for "millions" and you did not read the contract ? I bet that what you really mean, is that you are paying, by the sheet, for a maintenance contract. A maintenance contract that pays for parts and for a trained service technician to show up within a few hours to repair it. The more you run the printer, the more wear and tear on the machine. This type of contract has been used for decades not only on commercial digital printers but on office copy machines. Nothing new.
I am surprised at how many business owners have spent months making a decision and then claim to be "surprised". I have seen this many times. I find it amazing.
@@steveducell2158 I said I WAS surprised, past tense. I did not write a check for the printer, I had just started working there and knew nothing of the business until a co-worker explained it to me. The pay per sheet wasn't part of the service contract. That was a separate thing, as I found out when I was stuck doing the maintenance for a bit b/c of some snafu with business paying for the maintenance contract, yet we were still getting charged per sheet.
@@Callsign_Sturm , same here for washing machines. We bought new appliances around 2010, and I thought they would last at least until our children grew up. Not one of the appliances we bought is still in running condition, and the first to die broke down around year two. By five years in, they all needed at least one repair that would cost $300-1000. We still have the fridge my father in law gave us for free, which was twenty years old at the time, and it runs like a champ 36 years into its life. Never once had to call for a repair. When my thousand dollar washer quit working, and the matching drier was underperforming, I had my husband pick up an old set off the curb that was being thrown away. I fixed it using youtube repair tutorials and parts that were easy to get. One set of agitator "dogs", one drier drum belt, and a heating element later, the ugly, beat up, out of fashion, low tech models don't fail. I'd rather have an ugly set that runs than a houseful of useless, shiny, immaculate junk.
One thing is for certain, before these product makers think up ways to charge their customers on both ends, they might first consider raising their quality standard, and it might just solve whatever revenue shortfalls they have imagined. I will do without before I let them take my money for granted. Cheers!
After market bypass kits.
My car didn't have cruise control when I bought it. However, the onboard computer had the CC already in it. All I added was an inexpensive controller and I have CC. New cars have lots of features on them that people don't know that they already have. Just pay to have the factory or dealer add a button.
This is going to create a demand for an after-market part that bypasses the subscription feature by fooling it into either not being able to turn off the feature or by saying "yes" every time the computer asks if the subscription is active. And then the following argument about right to repair, like what we see from super expensive farm equipment. As a professional who could manufacture such an after market part... I will be watching. =D
Doing the Lord's work.
The most common example I can think of is navigation systems. The vehicles I have purchased since 2007 all have GPS systems. They all came with free updates for a set period. After that period you have to buy the updates that give you the latest maps, including where your nearest McD's is. Don't buy the updates and you can still use the nav system, but it slowly becomes inaccurate as roads change. Most are a set price for a single current map, some do four updates a year, some do only one.
have a code scanner at work that is that way buy it once BUT as new trucks come out I need to buy the upgrade package FOR that truck model
Yes, and the subscription renewal fees are outrageous. Jeep wants $149 per year for such map updates, haha.
If they keep the heated seats from working without purchasing a subscription than don’t charge for that option if the customer says no.
I think the bigger question is whether or not the auto companies own the car since they have retained some of the "bundle or rights". A couple of law suits holding that the auto companies are owners of the car and thus liable in the event of some horrible accident would put a quick end to this practice.
That could work on the data mining aspect, too.
"...bundle or rights."?
@@johnc2438 Search for it on the Internet. It has to do with what you get when you own a piece of property, whether it be real or personal property. It includes among others the right to use it, the right to lease or rent it, the right to dispose of it, etc.
The only way I would go for this is if say the auto manufacturer retains ownership of the heated seats or whatever feature applies, and you rent the use of them from the manufacturer. This also means that the manufacturer is responsible for all repairs and maintenance of the heated seats for the duration of you being willing to continue paying for their use.
I enjoy that Steve somehow started sounding even more like Steve when he began quoting Steve's comments
This same subscription model has been going rampant in the electronics test equipment industry. High performance features are baked into the hardware, you have to pay substantially more to "unlock" them. It can end up doubling or tripling the cost of the equipment. For reference, the initial cost can exceed the cost of even a luxury car.
Software too, Adobe is infamous for revoking customer's old perpetual licenses to force them onto their subscription model.
Louis Rossman also had a case where an expensive piece of music software ($500 base price with expensive music packs) is now forcing customers to upgrade to a newer version that's subscription based. No, they're not getting any compensationfor their initial purchase and revocation of their perpetual license.
Most people in our state have already canceled their tun signal subscription!!
Steve, _America_ is _not_ a country! If someone says "I am an American!", that correctly means they live in any one of 35 countries which are in America.
Another issue with the auto manufacturers building hardware into your car that you own, but which is inoperable unless you pay a subscription fee, is that it adds unwanted weight which impacts fuel efficiency. So, there is an ongoing cost to having the disabled hardware installed in your vehicle that will add up over time.
I've owned purely BMWs for nearly 15 years...
I had never and will never own any vehicle that requires a subscription for something wholly contained within the vehicle (Internet service, for example, would be a different story).
I've also installed heated seat kits from China in a BMW. The seat heating cost $45 at the time and worked great.
Can you require the manufacturer to remove the heated part of the seat, because it add weight to the vehicle and costs you money to haul it around in the form of lower mileage? Or can I charge them $'s per month to haul their non-implemented hardware around.
I wonder if there's anything in the contract preventing you from doing just that. It's a very clever idea
Doesn't Tesla gimp the charge distance on their vehicles via software unless you pay them for more? Those batteries are heavy!
Louis Rossman's channel focuses on the silliness of subscription models, "you'll own nothing", and right to repair. Highly suggest checking him out.
No subscription to heat up my car seats. I grew up in the '90s and I remember that technology. If they were able to do it in the '90s for the set fee I paid for the car why do I need to subscribe?
Ben waving "Hi" from Virginia, Steve's LHS
I was all over it today but I type slow. 😂
G’nite Bob.
My '23 Tundra came with a navigation system, very nice, really Big screen, actually could read the map, very nice. Some months later they offered an upgrade that didn't install correctly, I took it to the dealer and they fixed it. Then some months later I started getting ads on the thing for a 'subscription' that I ignored and now it doesn't work. At no time during the sales presentation or afterwards when I brought it back to have the 'upgrade' installed was the idea of a 'subscription fee' ever presented to me, Tundras ain't cheap and this entertainment system was a pricy upgrade as well. I'm I screwed? I really like both the truck and the dealer (I pay MSRP for the deal, got a good trade offer, and got 4% financing). I understand the charge for sat radio, that's for programming from a third (unrelated) party but to use the GPS. I have paid for 'upgrades' on GPS systems, that's for a newly undated database, on airplanes have to get this every 28 days, but you can still use the old one even though it ain't legal. Another annoying thing is that after the upgrade it started asking for a pin#, again nobody ever told be about this, is it going to happen that besides the car key I'm going to have to remember some secret handshake # and damn I have four cars and a tractor, since they set the pin I can't get the same one for all and that would probably be wrong and I've have the internet police on my case. I'm glad I'm old, the krap is getting to me.
Bro I'm young and this krap is getting to me...
How about suing Toyota? There are websites for people who want to do class action law suits
I just got a Toyota and it has GPS. I was told that for 4 years it was free, but then there will be a subscription cost to continue to use it. Since my car has Apple Car Play, which has three GPS applications (Apple Maps, Google maps, and Waze) I don't use the car's GPS system, so I suspect I won't miss it when it goes away.
LOL reminds me of the old Cheech & Chong sketch about free acupuncture offer: free to stick needles in, $500 to pull needles out
Extending the automakers' illegal grifting to its logical equivalent would mean that Dyson could sell you a vacuum cleaner; then charge you a monthly fee to use it. If equipment on the car was paid for in the purchase price, then your title excludes manufacturers' control.
Not a lawyer, but I took a business contract law class at a local community college. Was a really interesting and informative course.
They are trying to get it to where you will not own a car, house, or land. You will have to rent those items to "live" in society.
You will own nothing and be happy. NWO
its like eat it or beat it..
I grew up in Columbus Ohio. When I was a kid, in the late 1970's, the Catholic church sold houses, but you did not buy the land, you got a 99 year lease on the land.
I am glad (heartened) that people are getting this!!!! The pushback, if it grows, is that people NEED to vote with their dollars! What's the point of paying for an item (considerations!) if you're not owning it? 🤬
@@TheTimeForChange44 YES!!! I can't put it any better. If you really think about it, people vote with their dollars every day. Now the real way to vote with our dollars is to not support the LGBHDTV community agenda. That is destroying everything...even movies that were once great like Star Wars.
Wonder what the companies would do if buyers started saying, "OK then remove the heaters I don't need them"
No
I wish that was the case but sadly horses and buggies days are long gone :-)
TBH, consumers will just stop buying cars that insist on subscription.......
That only works if there's at least one car brand that doesn't insist on the subscription. If they *all* do it, we're screwed.
Yeah….and I thought people would refuse to use self check out for shopping. And once people begin to comply with reduced services, accept decreased portions or quality, it spreads.
We actually do have power, if people would just be as sensible as you assume.
@@Mulberrysmilethere are actual upsides to self-checkout for the customers though, or at least some of them. In my experience, I can check out myself about twice as fast as the average worker. The layout of a group of self checkout registers all served by the same waiting line also helps move the line line much faster, as the speed people move through is closer to that of the fastest person in line rather than the slowest. Also, since my Walmart only ever had 2-3 registers open at a time even before self-checkout, it's made a remarkable difference in checkout speed.
All that is to say, even if there is no benefit to *you* for self-checkout, there is to a decent percentage. By contrast, the only advantages to these subscriptions for things you paid for is the dealer, not the customer.
Until they ALL do it and there is no other choice.
@@MulberrysmileThat’s an enhanced service.
When I took contact law as part of my engineering education (in Canada, and a couple of decades ago), I was told that there were seven (7) essential elements that must be present in order for that contract to be binding and enforceable. 1) Identification (all parties must be identifiable and known to each other), 2) Offer (there must be a specific and defined process or trade), 3) Acceptance (all parties must agree to the terms of the offer), 4) Consideration (an exchange of something of value for all parties, which usually means a product or service in exchange for money, but it can be anything that is considered of value), 5) Agreement (all parties have formed an affirmative opinion to enter into a contract, 6) Competency/capacity (parties are entering into the contract in a mentally sound state and have the capacity for informed consent, with no undue deficiencies such as intoxication, inebriation, mentally debilitating medical condition or drug influence), 7) Legality (none of the previous elements can include an illegal request, action or subject).
On point seven (7), I always found that interesting in that a bunch of criminals can't enter into a contract to (for example) rob a bank, and then sue the getaway driver for breach of contract if the driver doesn't show up.
I was surprised by how much I enjoyed the business law class that was part of a quality management program I was enrolled in.
Steve, if auto manufacturers charge car owners subscription fees to use features already in the vehicle, the people like me will come in and "unlock" those features for a one time fee.
That one time fee was paid when you bought the car. It doesn't cost them any money to maintain your heated seats thats ridiculous.
@andidede3653 I agree. My point is as unfair companies attempt to abuse their customers, there will be opportunities to spoil their plans
I won't have a problem with being sold a smart car that has built in sensors, heaters, and other things you have to pay a subscription for.
I will have a problem if they take issue with me plugging a laptop into it, reprogramming the car (violating any warranty but who cares) and using it as I see fit.
👍 As a maintenance guy i would physically bypass it. A few feet of wire and an extra few switches on the dashboard.
@@Sarcasmarkus That only works on devices that use switches for inputs. Devices that only accept software commands on a vehicle-wide data bus can't be bypassed that way. The only way out is to build and program your own controller to send those messages then correctly receive and process the responses.
@@kensherwin4544 🙃i could get the seats to work, i'll call you for the programming.
@@Sarcasmarkus Ive been thinking about bypassing the "safety" features on my rider mower that makes the mower deck shut off every time I hit a bump, lean into a turn or go into reverse. Same basic idea.
Soon the mower deck will be a subscription. "Oh, you want to MOW with your mower - thats extra, we thought you just wanted to drive places without paved roads but with smooth grass at 6mph and have a mower deck to admire while you did it".
@@kensherwin4544depending on the device like heated seats you just bypass the control mechanism all together and switch the actual relay that causes power to flow. But who’s going to ghetto up a 50-150k vehicle.
I imagine they would try to use the software angle like software developers use to justify subscriptions since you can make any feature on a car be involved with software. "The heated seats won't run without the PID temperature control software" for example. While sidestepping the hardware side of things. They do that on CNC milling machines and lathes for basic software features like macros (not as a subscription as far as I am aware but as a feature you buy once).
With the price of vehicles now, they should not expect, nor receive, any additional compensation. It pissed me off that it was going to cost over $100 to download the update for the in-car navigation in our truck, and then leave it running (burning gas) for 1 to 4 hours for the update to install. I spent $15 for a phone holder and use my Google Maps.
What are potential liabilities for dealers or manufacturers of disabling installed safety features that lead to the death of a vehicle's occupants because the operator failed to subscribe for the features use?
Lehto law is highly educational. I learned about hoas and civil asset forfeiture.
The only way I could see this possibly working is if they don't charge for that option of the vehicle. But we all know when you purchase a new vehicle you get an itemized listing of the options and add ons that you buy and you sure as hell know that the infotainment system navigation and heated seats will be part of that so you own that specifically.
Even if not itemized, it's still included in the cost of the vehicle.
@@davidh9638 Additionally, its a point of failure; and possibly a _cause_ of _other_ failures.
@@natehill8069 yup. The circuit for the heated seats blows up? Say goodbye to, oh, who knows, your tire pressure sensors or something else.
The remote start feature should be free. You own the vehicle. You own the key fob. The signal from the key fob goes directly to the vehicle that you own. The signal does not go through internet or cell towers. How can it be legal to make a subscription for that? Also, this reminds me of the battle in the gaming market. There was an argument over the right to have physical copies of the games you purchased over just digital copies. I believe some of the worries came true over time. I was a while back and I admit i did not pay attention to the issue too much because i was not a big gamer, but there was discussions hanging out there on the internet somewhere in the past.
There are also remote start systems that do use cell towers to control the engine, locks, lights and temperature remotely from a smart phone. The car also acts like a phone itself, sending emails and texts to the owner when doors are left unlocked, time for service, check engine light on, etc. Charging for the cell service to do all that makes sense.
The story on that whether owning legally a physical copy of a game allowed you mod it. Historically this had been true and not a violation as long as you weren’t reselling the game or making it available otherwise(diminishing the profit of the original game). But through that battle basically it was determined that even if you are buying a game you are only purchasing a license to that game meaning you don’t own it, you own a lease and if you violate that inherent contract you forfeit ownership.
This won't be true in the future. Cars are starting to control these features with an app. The app connects to a server and sends the command, the car connects to a server to receive the commend. The car company is paying a monthly fee to operate the server (Amazon/AWS), so the server fees are the 'consideration'. Next they remove the feature from the key FOB or they connect to key FOB to the server as well.
@@MarcWithaC-BlenderAndGameDev What is the benefit to the consumer of moving from a self contained system to a system requiring an input from a phone>app>car? If you don’t have the fundamental ability to turn a car on or off you don’t own it therefore shouldn’t pay for any maintenance/taxes related to it. If I hack my cars computer and send the signal myself am I then breaching or infringing, this is a slippery slope and ultimately doesn’t make much sense.
Connecting features to the internet means you can start the car from miles away instead of just 50 feet. You could turn on 'dog mode' if you forgot from the restaurant. (This would be dangerous for a non-electric car), and yes, the seat heater as well. I agree about the ownership issues 100%. You're not allowed to alter your XBox, or your 300 thousand dollar commercial tractor, and soon you may not be 'allowed' to alter your car. If they're charging for the feature, you can be sure they have something to prevent you from 'manually' turning it on and off.@@beastlyshotzful
My daughter purchased a new car last weekend. During the transaction, the dealer asked her if she wanted the CHMSL (center high mounted stop light) to blink. Not really caring, she said, "Sure."
The dealer acted like this was going to require installation of a part but was actually just a setting within a control module. It took less than two minutes for some pimply-faced service tech to enable the option with his electronic tool.
While my daughter did not pay for this "service" I wonder how many customers were charged a fee or, at least, led to believe the dealer was giving them something for at no charge to sweeten the deal.
A few years ago, a friend also purchased a car where the dealership enabled some feature the same way. I wish I could recall the feature, but I do remember shaking my head when she told me they charged her to turn something on.
There's people working right now on cracking these systems, and they've succeeded with several so far.
check out ALPHAOBD software for "stalantis" cars OR FORSCAN for fords and VAGCOM for VW group vehicles these software packages allow you to do stuff the DEALERS can NOT do
2014 RAM I added 2018+ infotainment added EURO style separate turn / brake lights electronic climate control and was planning on heated seat and steering wheel all on a LOW trim truck
In the US that is arguably a violation of copyright law.
@@C1rnobylYou can get around that by skipping the software part and just wiring it up. You'd lose the ability to turn the seats on remotely though.
I think we might finally be getting to the point where consumers are hurting financially enough to start paying attention to this stuff in numbers large enough to make a difference.
They picked a really stupid time to push their luck with how cost of living is. People are going to be really mad when their car is demanding money they don't have.
Here's the other deal if they're forcing you to pay subscriptions for things like heated seats, electric windows, things that are installed in the vehicle when you bought it, then you didn't really buy it. If I have to pay a monthly car payment to purchase an outright own my vehicle, but I still have to pay a subscription fee to the manufacturer in order to use my vehicle, then it stands to reason that I do not own my vehicle I am simply leasing it but I'm responsible for every single thing bumper to bumper on the vehicle. Also if this stuff is subscription-based and I go to sell my vehicle in a private sale is that transferable? Who would buy a used vehicle from some lady down the road when they would have to rent the features of the vehicle from a manufacturer? I guess since they're not getting their way with the right to repair laws now they're going to nickel and dime me through the features. If you are not charging enough to recoup what you have in to the manufacturing of that vehicle and make enough of a profit to continue r&d while still slipping some to the shareholders then you're not charging enough for your vehicle. But something tells me all this subscription-based stuff is not going to be included in profit sharing etc. it's just like when you buy a piece of big equipment from an equipment dealer they're not making their money on the sale of the equipment they're making their money on the service contact that is in place for several years after the sale.
What bothers me most is the idea of a remote kill switch being standard for all new cars where law enforcement has the ability to shut your car off. It could so easily be abused or even hacked and cause major accidents and injuries. What’s to stop someone from playing around and shutting down one or worse thousands of cars with a keystroke.
Or some police officers playing around and turning off someones car. Given the way some cops treat people, it WILL happen.
The way GM used to do it was with an app. You paid a subscription to use remote start via their app and you could also lock the car, unlock it, or even set off the panic alarm.
However not paying for the app didn't prohibit you from using those features in person with the remote.
This whole idea of having to pay to physically use something in the car is complete nonsense and anyone who thinks this is acceptable needs to really step back and evaluate what they're going to be spending over the life of the vehicle.
One way I can think I MIGHT be willing is if the manufacturers agree to a lifetime guaranty/warranty of the item, for the life of the item (not the car - if the car is junked & the item is harvested at a junkyard for use in a different vehicle, the manufacturer could still turn it off at any time as they would have remote control over it). In addition, if the item would have to be replaced, a new lifetime warranty/guaranty would have to be in place for the replacement item.
That being said, I still think it's a ridiculous idea on the part of some very greedy people who are already jacking car prices too much. If they are ever foolish enough to try it, I can easily see many backyard mechanics & videos on how to hack/bypass the system. Not to mention the numerous lawsuits that would be filed (as you said, unjust enrichment) which could easily turn into a class action lawsuit.
Great vlog today, Steve!
Video Games commonly do this. They put add-ons in the CD you buy with the original game but you have to pay to unlock them. Even though you already own the data you purchased they have to unlock them.
A similar situation happens with Tesla where they build all cars to have an extended range but you have to pay to unlock that extended range from the battery.
Seems very scammy and I hope the law fixes this situation.
Matlab does this. When you buy it, you get a software key that unlocks only the features you purchase. Should you with to buy another feature, they get the money and update your key. All of a sudden you now have the new feature of the correct version to work with everything else you have.
"They put add-ons in the CD you buy with the original game but you have to pay to unlock them. Even though you already own the data you purchased they have to unlock them. "
That's normally a 1x fee though, and not a subscription. Even battlepass "subscriptions" you normally buy the "season" and then are done. This is different.
@@vancomycinb1193It was also said that you could pay for them outright or just monthly. That way if the original purchaser was a tightwad a subsequent owner could elect to have them (heated seats)
Sadly, the “law” is getting paid by the big companies to be there. No chance this goes away. It’s just a money grab and will create more division between the haves and have-nots.
Ben is ticking up behind the SLEHTO VA tag Steve's RHS
*LHS
Or stage right.
Ben's behind Virginia license plate
Never felt the need to use heated seats and Waze is a fantastic free application.
Also, at the end of the day, all fees considered and added to use your vehicle, how much does this new car cost?