Buying an inkjet photo printer - dye or pigment inks. Which is best for your photography?
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- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2024
- Keith Cooper looks at some of the differences in cost and print quality between dye based printers and ones using pigment inks. Dye based printers are cheaper, but can they match the quality of pigment inks? Does print longevity matter, and what difference does printing black and white photos make to the choice?
Do some prints look better with dye inks and are there some paper types that just don't work very well?
There is a detailed article by Keith looking in this subject in more depth, with examples and references at:
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Best explanation on dye-pigment ink prints I've seen so far! Thank you
Thanks - glad it was of help
My print/er knowledge improves once again. Thanks Keith.
Glad to be of help!
Woah Sir, your knowledge base is immense. It's like a photography & printing school/course in itself.
Going to binge watch your videos until I sell some prints.
Thanks...
@@KeithCooper I'm late to the party here, but hope you notice this 10 months later. I had a Kodak Easy Share Printer with this sheet of plastic on it that would transfer each color from that sheet to the photo printer. Would this be a dye printer? So this color shifting that occurs with dye when a print is in black and white: Does it also occur with color prints when changing what light it is viewed under?
@@Anon54387 That's a dye sublimation printer if I remember correctly - quite a different technology
The colour shifting does occur, but we notice it much much less. Think about reading a book under a tree on a sunny day - the light is very green, but you generally still see the paper the same colour as you expect.
Just found your channel Keith and I have to say you're outstanding with how you approach the subject. Here's there information, pros and cons, make the decision that works best for your situation. Extremely appreciated and definitely earned a subscription.
Thanks - glad it's of interest. if you've ever any specific questions, feel free to email me at Northlight, since it's often people's questions which give me ideas for new videos
I just bought the Epson SC-P900 for fine art printing and the Epson XP 970 (A3, dye based inks) for general office work and cheap photo printing. Thank you so much for this most useful video. Now I really know where to put the XP 970 to work when it comes to photography.
Thanks - glad it was of help!
Super generous of you sharing all these extremely useful information. I started watching your vids no more than a week ago, and since then I've had invested in a large format printer and now have a way broader idea about so many related topics such as ink, paper, marketing etc. Thanks a lot once again!!!!
Thanks - that's excellent.
Do have a look at the written articles on the Northlight site as well, since they often cover subjects in more detail than the videos (there are about ten times as many articles as videos as well)
@@KeithCooper I will take a look to it. Thanks again sir!!!!
What a sensible approach to printing. Thank you.
Thanks - glad it was of interest
I love the the look of what I have now learned is called gloss differential using gloss paper with pigment inks. Sometimes you can get some neat effects by telling the printer you’re using a Matt or luster paper but actually using gloss paper. Terrific discussion here.
Thanks - I've never found it much of an 'issue' just part of what a print looked like
Hi Keith, what a great channel! I can’t thank you enough. I discovered you today and already watched more than 30 videos to find information about my own business. Every video there is something I’m taking notes. I am building a sticker business and already bought a cutting machine. I wanted to ask you a printer related question, which I just sent an email to you. I hope you can answer it. I am so confused, although I am making a research more than 2weeks now. Seriously, you are the only person who can help me. ❤
Thanks - glad it's of help!
Keff, you have just taught me something. I have access to a Canon 4100 and I must say that upon getting the first prints back after many prints on dye based printers I was a little underwhelmed at the vividness of the colour? Now I know why.
Thanks - Pigment ink 'fine art' printers are not the automatic 'better' that is sometimes sold...
Thank you for your clarity. conciseness, illustrations. You made me decide pigment-based inks will suit my needs. Now I'll research what "costliness" could mean for me, as the the world-foremost unknown photographer having fun in retirement.
Thanks - glad it was of help.
I'm just getting the P700 back for some testing and have the PRO-300 here, so I hope to expanding coverage a bit more.
Kudos for a wonderful video of high caliber.
Thanks - much appreciated
I was just waiting that the SC P900 is available again. Now I checked out your videos & article around the Pixma 200. So now what :-).
I was surprised to say the least. BW is not such an issue for me, however to have the option for A2 with the P900 is great. Of course the price speaks for the Pixma 200. Not an easy decision.
Thanks for all your great videos & articles! Greetings from Austria
Glad the info has been of interest - do check the reviews/articles on the Northlight Images site as well for more detail
Always wondered. Now I know. Thanks Keith
Thanks - glad it was of help
Hey Keith, thanks for sharing another great video. I would have to disagree with you on the Baryta paper on dye based printers. I have been printing exclusively on hahnemuhle photo rag baryta on the Canon Pro 200 (both colour and b&w) and have been blown away with the results. I am no expert like yourself but I think that the Pro 200 is the best dye based printer on the market right now. Thanks again and look forward to your next video.
Thanks - I go into more detail in the main article, but of course this is based on the papers I've tried so can only be a generalisation.
My point is not that baryta papers are bad on the 200 just it's the one paper type where the results a less likely to be impressive and especially with B&W.
The 200 is indeed a very capable printer...
Super interesting as always Keith. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks
Very well explained. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with us all.
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you very much for your helpful explantion.
The more you know the more difficult or maybe easier a decision can be made.
I came acoss your very informative website and your channel by accident while doing research on what type of printer I should buy. I want to print out on A3. For some weeks now I am looking for information and made a decision finally (I THINK, tomorrow is another day) which was not easy, but your videos and articles contributed to my decision. I think I buy a Canon IX6850 because that is the appropiate one for me and is a rational choice.
Using original Canon ink I expect nice prints.
But if I could spend more money I would go for an Canon Pro-200 or an PIXMA PRO-10S, as I would expect better results.
Thanks - glad it's been of help!
I just need to get more people to find out about it ;-)
This was really useful info. Do you ever use a scanner? I'm looking to scan small paintings on paper and print them on canvas. Have read some articles so think I know what to look for but your vids are all so informative it's a pleasure to listen to you talk about these things.
I do sometimes scan things, but art reproduction is a very technical subject and to do it well requires really solid colour management understanding and practice. This is for using a high res camera or scanner.
I have covered scanner profiling in some detail
www.northlight-images.co.uk/x-rite-i1profiler-scanner-profiling/
I only started doing the videos last year, so much of my more detailed stuff is in my written work.
This is something I'd like to look at in more detail, but will likely not be until I'm next looking at a higher end printer
Thank you for your support and effort
Really very good explanation
You are most welcome
thank you, really great information, very appreciative of your knowledge. I was looking at purchasing an Epson et-8500, do you have any opinions on those? Thank you
I have one in a box under the piano, to look at after the et-2850
It is I'm told a 'cut down' 8550 - otherwise identical to
www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson-et-8550-printer-review/
love all your reviews thank you.
Thanks!
Very useful as always. Thanks Keith.
Thanks - there's more detail in the article, but hopefully it will help people decide
Thanks to your written articles and video supplements, I'm leaning towards pigment A3+ machine. Matte to semi-gloss, mostly B&W or slightly "toned" works is my goal for digital. Color - rather snaps so I don't care, it could be 3 inks, as people generally want punchy colors for snaps.
But there is one (probably very rare) use that you haven't mentioned here, though you might have any experience (experiment) with. Pigments on foils. I'd really love to be able to print b&w negatives for contact printing and generally have no clue about what I could only guess from bits infos on groups etc. Worse drying, probably bigger opacity than dye inks, maybe something else.
Quite a specialist use - I'd suggest looking at the forums for the like of QuadToneRIP and any alternative process ones for the printers which people actually use for such work. They may mot be ones you would pick for making actual prints
@@KeithCooper Thanks for sughestion. Sounds like some kind of hack. Will have to read about it.
Thanks again for pointing out to "non-OEM" solutions. Found a guy who makes such prints on Epson ET8180 converted to full-pigment by using Farbenwerk inks and their ICC profiles with successes. And two guys on Polish forums that use this combo for paper printing, also commercially. Farbenwerk provides a bunch of profiles for use this ecotank with different paper brands like Ilford. Sounds like machine for me. Buying. Will need to learn much now.
Hello Sir, I am very fortunate to come across your channel. I have one question regarding digital negatives for alternative photographic processes, I hope you wouldn't mind answering which works better on transparent films for blocking UV.
No idea I'm afraid, not a area of photography I've ever experimented with.
You'll need to find a specialist alt. process forum for that sort of info
Jesus Keith, you really know how to set the cat amongst the pigeons lol
Indeed - I did wonder how much 'perceived wisdom' about printer/ink types came from people who had never put the two next to each other... ;-)
Dumbest expression ever heard why even waste everyone's time with that? Honestly
Great video. You saved me a fortune.
Thanks - Glad to help!
Hi Keith... Thank you for your awesome videos. Just getting into printing and hesitating between the Pro 200 and the Pro 300. I do quite a bit of blue hour and night photography, city lights and occasional astro (milky way, Orion, etc.)
I printed an A4 of night San Diego Skyline on a cheap 4 colors Epson just for a feel try, and the prints arent bad at this size, but where it feels little odd is that I find my best result comes on a HP semi gloss (soft gloss) photo paper that I find more pleasing than when printed on some high gloss Canon paper. Is this the usual feel semi gloss gives from your knowledge, even for night scenes ?. And otherwise, I also do landscape and macro, and I still wonder if I should go with the 200 vs the 300.
Last, everyone going into printing has no clue of what a good trimmer board should be and what kind one should get. I believe it's going to be the very first needed accessory one will get along. Did you by any chance do any kind of video on this subject, or would you have any recommandation ?
Thank you for any insight...
If you like glossy, then the 200 may be a better option?
Do see the main review though and especially the importance of printing with icc profiles
www.northlight-images.co.uk/canon-pro-200-printer-review/
Note for example the gloss metallic paper - high contrast stuff can look excellent...
@@KeithCooper Thak you for your insight and time, Keith. Having already a better picture of the pro and cons, it almost seems that with a reasonable budget, one should go with an Epson ET18100 for the the glossy stuff and a Pro 300/Epson 700 for the rest. But in reality, not that I am a fan of always glossy picture support, but not knowing to well, I still wonder if for milky way and night images, but also Macro, a dye ink with glossy support doesnt have an edge in pop. The thing is, I also very much like luster and matte, and occasional black and white. so really a tough choice. There is an awesome gallery in Laguna Beach, where they sell amazing landscape images (made with a D850 and I guess some good lenses) and their work is absolutely impressive in pop, tones, rendering, etc. Las time I went, I more discussed photography, a bit of their paper that they told me was kind of proprietary (?) but next time I 'll have to look with a new "printing" eye and figure out what they use for such awesome results. (paper, printers, etc.). Printer wise, they probably play in the big leagues size and price wise...
Hi! Amazing video and priceless information. I’m planning on investing on a printer to print primarily on printable vinyl to make stickers. I currently market my stickers for outdoor use, since they are laminated for uv and water resistance. Do you recommend a pigment or dye based printer for vinyl stickers which would be protected by a uv laminate? I was looking into the epson ecotank et-5850 for pigment inks. Thanks!
Glad they are of interest, but I've no experience of that medium and outdoor use. I'd suspect pigment, but that's just a guess ;-)
5850 is dye based ink and that's all you will need is dye based
So true about the "darkroom look" being meaningless.
I used to print in the darkroom on fibre-based, resin-coated, matte, glossy, pearl, silk, some really exotic textured papers, cool-biased, warm-biased and neutral papers, which liked nothing like one another, to say nothing of the influence of adding a tint/tone stage to development.
Folks are mythologizing the darkroom era to sell papers without actually knowing what they're talking about.
Yes, I sometimes get people ask what paper/printer will match a particular darkroom paper. 95% of which I've never heard of yet alone used. My excuse is that it was a long time ago ;-)
@@KeithCooper a lot of people seem to forget how individual darkroom tastes were back in the day.
There was a supplier not far from me that had a steady rotation of at least 25 papers, and would bring in samplers or small packs.
Whenever I went in, if I needed a pack of 8x10 paper, I had at least 35 choices, some of which I'd never see again if they weren't successful locally. Other places would have their own standard set as well, with only some overlap.
Thank you for another great video!
Thanks - glad it was of interest
Keith, I gotta ask about the Canon Pro-200 for a moment. You say in your videos that pigment is best for black and white, but why do I see on most best photo printer lists and reviews that the Pro-200 is one of the best printers specifically for monochrome printing, while you say one of its best applications is color printing on glossy paper in particular?
I would simply query those 'lists and reviews' ;-)
See here for B&W specifics [includes links to videos]
www.northlight-images.co.uk/canon-pro-200-printer-review/
Hello Keith, I am thinking of starting a tee-shirt printing business, where I need to do plenty of printing on transfer paper. I've watched some of your videos, yet I'd like to know what printer and ink that's best to use on an economical budget, quality wise? I know I can trust on your opinion or suggestion. Thank you, and btw, your videos are great knowledge!
I'm afraid you've picked an area of printing I know almost nothing about. You need to find what people doing this sort of printing use.
Since I am just starting out it sounds like I should get a Dye based printer to start with
and sub out to the local print shop for the occasional pigment job.
Then, if all goes well, add a pigment printer down the road.
Nothing wrong with that approach - for me the real jump in potential quality comes when you go to 13" width
Hi Keith. Thank you for the great information as always. There was a new Epson A3+ printer (ET-8550) introduced recently. It is dye based but also has photo black and photo grey included (in addition to the primary colours). I realise you haven't had a chance to get a hold of one yet, of course, but I was wondering what your thoughts were about the theoretical potential of this thing to produce neutral B&W prints.
My own experience has been with an old Canon A4 all-in-one with a similar arrangement of printing channels (pigment black for text + dye based primary colours, grey and back). To my far from expert eye, it does a pretty good job with B&W. Unfortunately, it is only A4 and drinks ink :)
I may get to look at one in due course, but it is still dye based so I would not expect significantly different results from the xp-15000 I looked at recently. Grey is just diluted black and the variability in tonal response under different lighting is due to the spectral response of the dyes.
Whilst I don't know, it doesn't sound a printer I'd pick for B&W any more than the XP-15000 or any other dye based printer - do remember though that I'm quite picky over B&W ;-)
@@KeithCooper Blimey that was quick! Thank you so much for your advice. Certainly, it can't be expected to be a P700(900) level device. 'aright B&W (and colour as it only has three) will have to do if you don't want to deal with the running costs of those printers. Looking forward to reading your thoughts when you get a hold of one.
@@aminabdollahzadeh5762 You caught me checking on uploads ;-)
I've been uploading more videos so I can schedule some, and YT takes an age to upload and then check them for ad purposes.
As usual a clear and simple exposition but to describe complex realities of the nebula galaxy of the home press.
I have recently purchased an Epson ET-8550 and I am equipping myself with a probe to profile the cards to use with my printer.
This is a step that I will also be able to take thanks to your videos and exhibitions to help understand the complexity of home printing.
With the same clarity, therefore, it seems to understand that with printers that use dyes, like mine, glossy, ultra-glossy papers, etc. are preferred.
Do you confirm this?
Well, it depends on what you like the look of.
Dye printers do give good looking prints on high gloss papers.
They also look good on some art papers - it mainly depends on your tastes and the sorts of images you want to print.
thank you!
Glad it was of interest
Thank you
Glad it was of interest!
thats great thank you
Glad it was of some interest!
Hi Keith, I have an Epson Eco tank 8550et. I make scrapbook albums and print digital paper. I noticed when using ppd 53lb matte paper, which is not cheap, made my paper feel chalky. When I use cheaper cardstock, it is smooth and not chalky but the print is not as clear as the more expensive cardstock. My ink that came with the printer is a dye-based ink. Can you tell me why my more expensive paper would feel chalky? Thank you!!
Basically, the price of a paper has no connection with the image quality from a given printer...
Inkjets need a paper coated for inkjet use... If the coating is not optimal then it won't matter how much it costs ;-)
53lb is, I'm afraid, a US only description, so I've no idea what it would equate to anywhere else. However you need papers optimised for inkjet use.
A US supplier I'd suggest contacting is Red River Paper... they will also know what 53lb means! ;-)
@@KeithCooper thank you very much! the 53lb is the weight of the paper i use to print on.
Yes - I know it's the weight - just that means nothing outside the US I'm afraid. It's not a measurement used anywhere else any more, but RR paper will know ;-)
Hi Keith, just found your channel and watched several of your productions which are turning out to be very useful. I am particularly interested listening to your synopsis on the two printer manufacturers and the models, Canon and Epson. I am looking at the Pro200 and Epson P706 (which may be the 700 in the UK).
When you talk about small prints...what do you deem as a small print? Is a 17 x 11 (A3) a small print or are you meaning something like a 5 x7? Also the DPI on a Canon Pro 200 is shown as 4800x2400 and the Epson P706 is 5760x1440 optimised. I am aware the more DPI, the more dots and better image quality but on an A3 sized print, does this make much difference. I look forward to a possible answer to my enquiry. many thanks, Mike from New Zealand.
Thanks - Small for me is A4 and below. Those two printers are at distinctly different levels (that's as close as I ever get to inter-brand comparisons)
Those DPI numbers at the top end are partly for marketing - what you think you are aware of is simply not a reliable factor ;-)
See my articles about printer resolution and the video about what printer marketing doesn't say
www.northlight-images.co.uk/driver-settings-and-print-detail/
ruclips.net/video/smL4Mm6IFuA/видео.html
Gidday Keith, thanks so much for your reply and pointing me in the direction of your articles. Haven't really covered off your repitoire in 2 days so it's handy I can now go look. Very impressed how you reply to everyone. Have a great day
Thanks - people's questions are what often give me ideas for new videos ;-)
Thanks for another informative video Keith. I am leaning towards the pigment based ink Canon Pro 300 as I do like to print in black & white. I currently have an Epson XP-960 dye based printer for my daily use and have never had any problems with the printer when away for extended periods (say 4 weeks). How would I prepare the Canon Pro 300 for extended periods of non use (4 weeks or more) once normal travel resumes?
Thanks - depends on your environmental conditions for a long break, keeping one in a sealed plastic bag may help in very low humidities. I also used to get my house plant waterer to turn stuff on and run a head clean...
What about printing on non-paper substrates like fabric? We fiber artists are printing on all kinds of substrates. Thanks. Your video is very informative.
I don't have any suitable media for testing this - nor suitable profiling equipment I'm afraid.
Not a type of printer I can test I'm afraid ...canvas is a s close as I get
Hello from Cambodia 🇰🇭
Thank you for the tutorials can review canon Pixma 8770? Wondering how many prints for one whole set ink tank. I couldn’t find the number online
Thanks, but not a printer I'm likely to test I'm afraid (it's the 8750 here I believe) - I usually concentrate on higher end larger printers. My next printer reviews are likely to be of much larger printers.
The best resource for ink costs I know of is:
www.redrivercatalog.com/rr/cost-of-inkjet-printing.html
However you will need to adjust the calculations to allow for your local ink costs
Good pictures 🙂
Thanks
I need a good printer for printing mostly waterslide decals. So it means glossy paper. But at the same time I need the inks to be water resistant. Which one would you recommend? Dye based or Pigment based printers?
Neither, if you are looking at the sort of printers and inks I test. Likely needs specialist inks and media
Pigment, I’ve read, is more adequate for canvas paper printing as well.
Do you mean canvas or paper - they are different things - there are paper products called 'canvas paper' - just a paper with a canvas style surface texture.
Pigments are likely to have better longevity
Thank you for the knowledge💪
Solely based on the look of the image you show on brighter style paper and the name ‘darkroom look’ it seems that a darkroom look could be defined as a projected light look? I Imagine projected colour slide look would be as functionality useful to describe the look but of course a lot less pretentious.
Interesting suggestions, but the problem is that I suspect no two people's use of the term 'darkroom look' probably refer to the same thing ;-)
I get asked about it most in connection with B&W prints, where it covers the contrast range, the look of the black and paper surface/texture. Well that's what I assume, with the difficulty that my experience of darkroom work stopped 20 years ago and I've never even heard of some of the papers that get mentioned.
Of course. once it's connected with marketing, all beta are off ;-)
Hi Keith, I've been watching your channel for a few months now by recommendation of someone on "Talk photography". I may be due to replace my Epson Stylus Photo 1400 anytime soon and am debating between the Canon 200 and Canon 300 (Dye Vs Pigment). My preference is studio portraiture and skin tones are of paramount importance. Which printer out of the two would your preference be? Thank you.
The 200 makes great ultra glossy prints - the 300 has longer lasting inks and a better B&W performance
I've never seriously done any 'people photography' so have no deep understanding of skin tones and their reproduction... Yes, for real, the only times I photograph people they are wearing high vis jackets or at work :-) :-)
Thank you@@KeithCooper
Great info again Keith thanks. Really fancied the Epson eco tank for ink economy but I shoot a lot of black and white so maybe not. More research for me 😂
Yes, B&W can be done on the 8550, but a P900 could be a better option.
A lot depends on what paper types you like
@@KeithCooper matt or luster for me mate cheers
I have an epson Et 8500. It comes with a black ink that's pigment but the rest of the supplied inks are dye based. My questions is this: When time comes to refill my ink - say my ink "tubs" or whatever they're called, are 3/4 empty, if I want to start using all pigment based inks, CAN I MIX THE TWO (DYE & PIGMENT INKS) when I refill the tubs?
No, absolutely not - well you can, but mixing inks is never a good idea. There is a chance they will react and effectively kill the print head.
Say goodbye to any warranty too
Hi Keith, I like your videos. I want to print my artwork I drew on the computer on matte paper, 11x17, and have them as posters on my wall. I use a lot of subtle color variation. Do you think the xp 15000 can achieve good results on matte paper or should I get the p700?
With good paper profiles and care in colour management, it should be possible on either one.
See some of the examples in my xp-15000 review
Hello Keith, another great and informative video, thanks.
I recently asked you a question about a replacement printer for my Epson 1400. I am now down to two possibilities.
1. CANON PIXMA PRO-200
2. Epson Expression Photo HD XP-15000. There is a difference in price, but moreover, I understand the Pro 200 is very expensive to run (ink wise) and not a printer to be used for printing smaller size photos ? So, lesser quality but cheaper inks with the Epson...?
What makes you think of the PRO-200 as not for 'small photos'?
It printed 6x4 ones OK when I was testing - check the Canon specs for page sizes supported.
As for 'expensive to run' - it's on a par with the pro-100
see here
www.redrivercatalog.com/rr/cost-of-inkjet-printing.html
looks cheaper than your 1400?
Hi Keith! Thankyou for a great video.
I’ve been looking at the canon pro 200 for my watercolour prints (A5s, A4s) and A6 watercolour cards but I’m really not sure. Would the canon pro 300 be better? So dye or pigment? Or would you suggest something else entirely?
I mainly print on matte photo paper. My art style is very soft and warm with lots of delicate brush strokes and fine pencil lines. I previously used a very basic canon printer that is more suited to just office work - it just wasn’t meant for printing art.
I would like a printer to pick up on these details of my work but I just don’t have much knowledge when it comes to picking a printer😬 however I am trying to learn as much as possible before committing to purchasing one.
Any advice would be wonderful!😃
Thanks!
Mary
Print quality for what you want is largely nothing to do with printer choice.
It's getting the right paper, with an ICC profile, and how you edit/print the images.
Have a look at my main review of the ET-8550 for a watercolour example
www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson-et-8550-printer-review/
Look at my pro-200 and pro-300 reviews [the proper written ones, not the videos] as well
www.northlight-images.co.uk/canon-pro-200-printer-review/
All these have lots of links to other content.
Any of these are capable of what you want - the pigment inks of the 300 will work well on the sort of paper you want. Look perhaps at a smooth cotton rag paper for a step up in print quality over matte photo paper?
FYI I now have a video about printer choice for artwork (thanks for asking the question!)
ruclips.net/video/lMXp8WQSF2w/видео.html
Actually using a PRO-200 for the example ;-)
My question is, which is better for let’s say transparency printing? I just assume pigment inks would be better. But I could be wrong.
Difficult to say with any certainty - depends on the precise media and, of course, what you want to do with the prints.
See the discussion about transparency in my look at printing on 160um film with the ET-8550 for more info.
Hello Keith,
Thank you for your very interesting and documented vidéos!
Is your analysis about Dye/Pigment inks also right when speaking about the ET 8550?
As a photographer, I'm actually considering to buy a printer for serious art printing, A3+ (maybe A2),
for color and b&w printings, and for wide but also small printings (exposing wider photos prints, but of course selling also card size prints).
I was really considering the sc p900 , based on your testing of it, but also considering that the ink price is much more
expensive on the sc p700 (it has been calculated on a forum somewhere in the internet).
At some time, I went to consider also the ET 8550, that seems to do very well, but was'nt able to find really printings comparaison, side to side...
(Hoping that my english is well understandable, as I 'm a france based spanish dude ^^).
Ah, the 8550 is an interesting hybrid. It shows aspects of both dye and pigment performance.
The critical aspect is paper selection.
I'll have more about this in the main (written) review in a week or so's time. The majority of it will be in the written articles, not the videos (which are meant as trailers/supplements to my written work)
It is difficult to cover technical differences in detail in videos - I spend ages refining and correcting the text to get it right - the videos are shot without scripts, and impossible to tweak/edit once published ;-)
@@KeithCooper Thanks for the quick answering Keith! So, I 'll wait for your article before choosing. Can't wait for reading it!
Keep the good job up Keith!
Thanks!
Thanks for upload 😇
Glad it was of interest!
I am confused. You said the dye ink is cheaper and has 4 colors and the pigment ink are more expensive and have more than 4 colors but the cheaper dye ink produces superior photos?
Sorry if not clear but...
Dye ink printers tend to come at the cheaper end - they do not all have 4 colours
Pigment ink printers tend to be more expensive - they do not all have more than 4 colours
There are very few higher end dye printers [pro-200 is about the highest]
On most media dye inks do not produce superior photos
Some printers have a mix of pigment and dye
Any generalisations in this area are likely wrong - you need to include all of the printer's features and your requirements in any comparison
Now for the big question, is it worth getting a used canon 9000/9500 or just get the 15000 I feel the canon is built better, I do like the dye base inks better, for now. The epson is in the same price range new as a canon is used.
9000/9500 are two generations back - I reviewed them years ago
They are still popular with some people using 3rd party inks
If I was given one, it would go straight on eBay ;-) ... well at least after I'd made a video to go with my original (written) review
Hi hi, Keith ✨
May I ask which you’d recommend for Watercolor illustration prints, since this was more for photography.. I’m not too sure which I should lean towards, a dye or pigment ?
I was looking at the Canon Pixma Pro 200 and Canon Pixma iXP6850, thoughts?
any other suggestions are much welcomed!
Thank you! And thank you for a very informative video!!
If you want to sell the prints, I'd personally pick pigment for longevity on good art papers.
Of course it all depends on your marketing position...
If you want dye, then the pro-200 would be my choice over the more 'consumer' 6850
The 200 will be far easier to get paper profiles for than the 6850
@@KeithCooper thank you very much, Keith! ✨
Great Video Keith. I wanted to get the canon Pro 200 based on on your recomendation. but if baryta paper is made to be printed with pigment inks. does that mean the pro 200 can't? or what will be the resault? I really want to print on baryta.
Thanks.
It is not that you can't print on Baryta papers with dyes, just that they are the type where the difference is more marked. A strong liking for baryta style papers is an indicator that you want pigment.
Read the actual reviews and articles for more - the videos are only short overviews
www.northlight-images.co.uk/dye-inks-or-pigment-inks-for-photo-printing/
www.northlight-images.co.uk/canon-pro-200-printer-review/
www.northlight-images.co.uk/canon-pro-300-printer-review/
@@KeithCooper Thank you Keith. Appricate your support and your content.
what about say the epson 2850 that uses a pigment black and dye colors?
It's a home office printer - see my detailed review for just what you can and can't do with it?
www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson-et-2850-printer-review/
Hello, thank you for sharing.. I do illustrated books for children and I used to press-print them. But, lately press-printing became very expensive in Egypt and I have to print large quantities to lower the cost. So, I'm thinking of buying a printer to print at home smaller quantities. I'm really confused between colored laser printers and epson ecotank printers, and also between dye and pigment inks.. So, can I please have your advice? Thank you.
Ah, I don't really test printer for press type use - so no lasers
A bigger office style printer may suit your use better, something like the WF-C8960 I looked at a while ago
www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson-wf-c8690-printer-review/
Desktop printers are likely to be very expensive and time consuming to run.
Ive noticed the newer range of epson printers use pigment black and dye ink for colour. Is this good in your opinion?
It depends - read my detailed ET-8550 review for a discussion about this
www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson-et-8550-printer-review/
If i make stickers and put them on my car and i want them tast longer without fading due to the sun, should I go with a pigment printer? Thank you for the help
Not much - Use proper outdoor inks - this is what commercial vehicle decorators use
Normal ink jet pigment will last a bi longer than dyes, but not long...
@@KeithCooper thank you for the response. I'll look into that 😊
Very good information. What would you suggest for sublimation for clothing?
Thanks
Sorry I've absolutely no experience with that sort of printing
Pigment ink printers. Does the ink run when hit with water?
Depends on the paper - and the type of ink
www.northlight-images.co.uk/canon-water-resistant-matte-paper-review/
In your opinion what would u suggest as a good A0 sized printer for home use .not heavy use.would be Low to average
Very tricky to say - large printers really do not like low usage.
My current choices would be either of the Epson/Canon 44" 12 ink models -
I've lots of bigger printer reviews, but they all pre-date my starting to add videos to my reviews/articles
I’ve been debating for weeks on whether to get the Canon pro 200 (dye) vs the 300 (pigment). I’m not a professional but I do a fair amount of portrait work. For years I didn’t really show my artistic shots to many people. I just loved photography and kept most of my stuff private. Recently I did sell a few prints to a dental associate of mine and have since gotten many requests to buy reprints. I don’t expect to be printing more than 20-30 A3 prints per month but if I’m going to sell them I’d like to have the peace of mind that pigment inks seem to offer in terms of greater fade resistance. Also I tend to shoot more B&W than color. From watching your videos about these two printers I’m leaning towards the Canon 300.
Which would you buy in my situation?
For B&W, the 300 gets the nod.
That and you can make 'archival' an element of your sales pitch ;-)
@@KeithCooper thanks so much!
Hey, thanks for video. It is something, but I still didn't get the information I wanted. Everyone is taking that pigment prints will last longer but how/why is that? Is is going to be only color-washed out or the dye is also more prone to mechanical contact (touching, scratching...)? You say you print all your cardboards with dye but you didn't say why is that?
I want to print stuff for a board game like cards for example. It will be constantly touched, shuffled etc. so I'm not sure if maybe I should invest a little more money into pigment. I'm also interested in printing some things on transparent foil. I've read that laser printers are better for that but ink printer can also do it. Can you help me a little?
Inkjet prints are no good for such cards unless laminated.
Pigments should last longer for photographic prints on suitable media - this longevity does not ever include card.
I do not 'print all cardboards' with dye - I use whatever I have for greeting cards - the only sort of cards I ever print.
Inkjet prints are great for photos and basic office printing, but not for materials to be handled much.
wish I saw your videos before I bought my Canon pro 100 , if so would have bought a pro 10
Ah - I only started the videos last summer.
My pro-100 and pro-10 review were from quite a while ago...
buon giorno .Mi è venuto un dubbio : allora concludendo con parole povere :
PER STAMPARE UNA FOTO SU CARTA LUCIDA :UNA STAMPANTE EPSON ET 2810 CON 4 COLORI DYE è MIGLIORE DI UNA EPSON ET 2850 CON 3 COLORI DYE + 1 BLACK PIGMENTATO ?
grazie Keith.
English?
Good day Mr. Cooper can you PLEASE tell me how i can get the best out of my canon mx475, looking to make some graphics t shirt. Can i add pigmentation cartridges to this printer?.
Sorry - I've no idea. I've never seen that printer and never used 3rd party inks in my testing...
Hi Keith - I’m wondering what advice you might ba able to offer regarding the current ‘ink drought’ that seems to be taking place. I’m getting very close to running out of particular inks for my Canon Pro 300, and for a while now have not been able to find three inks in particular. Apparently, the problem is being caused by a shortage of ethanol - supplies of which are, quite rightly, being diverted for the manufacture of hand sanitiser and disinfectants. I’ve decided to stop printing images, until the situation improves, and just print the occasional nozzle check print as I’m concerned that if I have to stop using the printer completely, it could be damaged by clogging. Would printing a nozzle check weekly be enough the stop the print heads clogging, or will this actually use more ink that printing small images? Thanks for any advice you might be able to offer.
A nozzle check uses very little - every couple of week is OK if you are short of ink
Sir, how to print borderless in Epson l1300???
I can't check the borderless box in Epson l1300 driver, even the paper setting is correct....
Is Epson l1300 not support borderless....???
No idea I'm afraid - that is not a printer I've ever tested.
Dear Keith, love your work, please can you advise, all childrens books are printed in China, am trying to print in Uk myself am using my Epson ET-15000 inkjet (with rare EN-71 compliant Ink Cafe branded) dye ink, but it smears slightly, even after heating and waiting days, besides using a resin UV coating (which China does very well) or spray UV protection fixative, is their any other method of keeping the ink from smudging which I can apply by hand or using a machine under £2k?
Thanks.
Sorry, I'm afraid this is well outside my testing experience. I don't get non OEM inks to try.
@@KeithCooper ok thank you.
Will one of these work to print lineart to then paint with alcohol markers (copics)? I'm afraid to buy something and then seen my art become a smudge fest
Sorry, there's no way of knowing this without experimenting
Solvents vary widely in pens - I don't know the sort you mention.
Hi Keith , Which inc would be best to print on a 100% cotton paper ?
Would dye based inc bleed on it ?
Depends on the paper - if it is made for inkjet, neither should be a problem
If it's not an inkjet paper, neither will look good
Thanks ! one more question
Is Epson L8050 or Cannon Pixima 6070 good intanks and are their ink quality good ? @@KeithCooper
No idea - not model numbers I know at all I'm afraid
Which ink will cause 'less' problems and can set longer when the printer may not be used for a long time while between jobs??
Or in similar words, Which ink is 'less' likely to dry up and get stuck to the printhead or cause clogging if the printer sets for many days or weeks between prints??
Or in similar words, Which ink may require 'less' frequent electronic head cleaning or electronic flushing of the printhead because A-LOT of ink ($$) has to be used each time an electronic cleansing is done??
Thank you. :)
In general dye inks take lack of use better. Smaller printers tend to use less cleaning ink.
A couple of weeks is not a problem usually. It also depends on environment. I'm in the UK and we rarely get hot and dry for long. I have heard of people leaving printer in a sealed plastic bag to eliminate drying. When away for longer periods I just got whoever came in to water my plants to turn the printer on and run a nozzle check ;-)
@@KeithCooper This is one of the main reasons I chose a dye-based printer. I have the Canon Pro 200 (and have had various predecessors of this printer for over 20 years). I sometimes go months without printing. While completely realizing the risks of this, it is what it is. I have never had a nozzle issue, regularly running nozzle checks before use and never even requiring a nozzle cleaning cycle. I also understand this uses a lot of ink because the printer 'knows' it's not been run for a while, so uses additional ink during warm up. The other reason I use dye is my preference for glossy - even with B&W. I have taken your advice (thank you!) and tested various papers and found a glossy metallic paper (Red River Polar Gloss Metallic) that really shines with this printer. No color cast, at least to my eyes. Even if I could get that 'pop' with a pigment ink printer, not sure I would go there because of the infrequency of my printing (and risk of nozzle clog). I am interested to learn if the new Canon inks (once available on a Canon Pro-1000 replacement, however long we wait for it) will provide more protection in this regard. I want 17" but need a printer that can stand-up to infrequent use. My Canon Pro 200 certainly provides this (my experience only).
Thanks for the video, really appreciate your help!
Question: I have a side small business printing rich-colour-based greeting cards on 300 to 350 gsm watercolour-based papers, now what would be a good choice in my case! The prices for these printers are pretty much identical!
Thank you
Are the papers sold for inkjet use? If not then neither will print particularly well.
What inks are they currently printed on?
@@KeithCooper Thank you for your message 🙏
I'm currently using HP Color LaserJet Pro MFP M280, however, the papers get stuck and often times not able to print on these thick papers, I have to take the paper tray out and hold the papers by hand with a little push, otherwise won't accept these thick papers...
I also tried outsourcing my cards to specialised printing companies but they use very cheap quality papers despite I went for their premium quality 450 gsm papers, still very cheap and totally unbearable!
So my only choice is to get these printed myself but it's really difficult to determine what sort of printer could handle my needs, I need something that could basically print on 300-350 gsm textured-watercolour papers, however, these papers aren't meant for printing as they are premium quality papers costing about 50p per A4!
The reason I need to print on watercolour papers is due to my business model, my greeting cards are a mixture of digital art and hand drawn/painting on top (something quite unique), otherwise, i would have just gone with normal thick papers...
Regards
Unfortunately - inkjet is very different to laser in workable paper types
Non inkjet media will give poor to awful results whatever inkjet printer you get.
Not one printer I've ever tested prints well on non-inkjet media - that is the way it is I'm afraid
Check the range of card media from Fotospeed, Permajet and Paper Spectrum - I've tested lots of them with different printers...
@@KeithCooper Thank you Keith for your in-depth explanations really appreciate your help 🙏
Yes, I understand, and thanks for your advice, will check them both!
Cheers
Thanks for the information. What about solvent inks? anyone with experience? I saw the results of the old GS series from epson and it was totally mesmerizing.
Ah - I don't really cover that area at all. All my reviews (right up to the 64" P20000) only cover aqueous. Solvent is a very different market -
I'd need to test things at Epson for that as well since I'm not having a solvent printer in our house ;-)
Hello Keith, do dye based inks fade as a function of time alone, or is it due to exposure to UV light, and/or other environmental things?
If a dye based printed card is kept in a light-proof box will the colours stay vibrant?
Thank you!
The longevity info you see from manufacturers usually only refers to the 'kept in a box' life. Once any light and heat/damp/pollutants are added to the mix they lower the time period.
Then there is the media itself - this can have a huge effect. I note you mention 'card' - unless this has archival properties and is meant for inkjet, then it too may well lower the life of a print.
Basically, if I was concerned about longevity, I wouldn't start with dye inks
@@KeithCooper Thank you Keith!
I assumed that this is only matters when you already have high end printer?
No, it's about the choices involved in getting a 'better' printer.
Of course that depends to some extent on just what you mean by a 'high end printer'?
For myself that's nothing below 13" width
Hi. Sorry for my bad english. First of all, my printer (canon G2010) has CMY (dye based) and black ink (pigment). So ive problem when i print out my artwork on glossy paper. The black colour(pigment) didnt come out. The printer make the black colour by mixing the CMY colour. And yes, after 3 days, the black colour on the glossy paper turns red and smeared... So what need i do😭
Get a better printer - maybe not the answer you wanted to hear, but the only real solution IMHO.
I believe if you choose regular paper or a matte setting, it will trick the printer into using its black pigment ink. Otherwise, yes, when you set to Glossy Photo it will create black from CMY.
Hi Sir what is the best Ink for printing on Polycotton Canvas?
Depends entirely on the surface coating. It also depends on how, if you choose to do so, you coat the canvas print afterwards
Of course canvas is rarely available in small sheets and there are no photo printers at17" width and above that use dye inks.
You make great images. Do you sell them?
I do with some, but it's not a major part of the business. My main business is architectural/commercial/industrial photography
@@KeithCooper I see, good to know! And thx for sharing. I’m thinking of how I can use my photography skills to make a living…
My stuff about that starts here:
www.northlight-images.co.uk/business-of-photography/
Hope it's of some interest...
I was considering buying the pro-200 for my illustration prints, but you say that only the pigment inks are truly archival. Now I am unsure. I would like to sell the prints with an archival quality. So is the ink for the pro-200 not archival quality?
(I think 100 years is a pretty long time)
Well, archival is about vastly more than just ink lifetime. It's about the paper, mounting and storage conditions.
Archival is also about marketing and where your product is positioned (see some of my videos about selling prints for more).
It's a very big subject - places to look for info are Ardenberg and the Wilhelm site.
Beware of an awful lot of hokum written about the subject - just look to see what vested interest the writer might have as well ;-)
@@KeithCooper Thank you. I am very aware of papers, storage, the influence of light on artistic mediums. Ink lifetime is important to me in selling limited print editions of my work.
I just discovered your reviews and channel today because I was looking for more information about the pro-200. And because my 10 yrs old old little canon iP4850 died on Friday, RIP, I am left with the budget quandary of buying two printers or just one.( one a4 for office and family then a pro geade one for serious printing)
I'll usually pick pigment for my own work, but that's actually because of my interest in black and white printing, which is invariably superior with pigments.
As to using a PRO-200 for selling prints - if it was in a market where 'archival' didn't particularly matter as a marketing feature, I'd not have a problem with the 200. However, if my market was concerned with archival properties, I'd make sure to use pigment.
Both prints if well looked after, are likely to outlast me, so it's a bit of a moot point ;-)
Thank you for all your information, I really appreciate it! I have an Epson xp 15000 HD printer which uses Claria dye based HD inks. I print on thick cotton fineart paper. I bought the printer wanting high quality reference photos, but like the results so much i want to sell prints with it. I invested in high quality paper (300 gsm cotton fineart paper) thinking it was a good enough printer to sell the prints, but now very confused about the longevity of the prints. You said in the video that fading is not such a problem anymore, but longevity is still a problem? I find it so hard to get the information I need to provide for buyers if I sell.. if they protect the prints behind glass and avoid direct sunlight, they should last several years right? Any guidence is so much appreciated, but thank you for your video!:)
Thanks!
Well, I'd personally not choose a more 'consumer level' printer like that for print's I'd sell - BUT that is mainly market positioning. I use pigment inks as a marketing 'feature' ;-)
Prints from the 15000 on a good archival (acid free) paper should have no issues for a few decades. but reliable testing info is simply not widely available. What I've seen of Epson's published info about the Claria HD inks seems pretty reliable, once you filter out some of the marketing speak...
If selling prints with longevity as a 'feature' then it's largely marketing anyway :-)
@@KeithCooper thank you so much, that helps a lot!:) My main thing is that Im able to achieve the quality and colours that match those of my paintings and a longevity that I feel okay with at my price point. Thank you so much! :D
Hi Keith based on you excellent videos on the et8550 I have purchased two of them. One for photos and one for sublimation. Thank you. I have a quick question that I can not seem to find the answer for. I topped off my tanks after I printed many photos but I did it without going through the menu. Now even though the printer is filled up, it still displays lower ink levels. Do you have an idea how to reset the ink levels after I put the ink in?? Thank you.
Glad they helped
It's in the main printer menu - drop down to ink filling and there is an option to set the level of any channel to 'full' (I can't remember where from memory - in the settings somewhere IIRC)
@@KeithCooper thank you. 😊
hello, is it possible to print on black colored paper with an epson printer or any colored paper?
Given the type of ink, it's unlikely that it would be very effective.
Some printers will also have problems detecting the paper
You'll need to experiment, but my first thoughts are that you'll not get far...
@@KeithCooper Thank you for your valuable comment. What should I do? Can I not print on black paper at all? it shouldn't be this hard :((
Can you use heat transfer paper with a photo printer?
Sorry, I don't know - I've never come across such paper
If you do a nozzle check it will tell you how many pages were printed
Depends entirely on what printer you have...
On some it will
Of course it can be a pretty meaningless number - it can be reset with service software on some printers
Hi, I would really like an A4 pigment printer but seems something that doesn't exists.
I usually order prints on hahnemuhle baryta, to avoid surprise with photo lab that use hahnemuhle baryta would it make any sense to print at home on the same paper a test print with a dye based printer?
What do you think about photo printers like the Epson ecotank 7700?
Yes- no higher end small printers.
First up, dye inks don't perform so well on baryta papers, so such printing is unlikely to achieve any meaningful benefits.
You're better off to get a soft proofing profile from the lab. use it and a known test image to perfect your proofing.
I may be looking at an 8550 in the near future, but we're not at the top end in this area ;-)
@@KeithCooper Thanks, I'm also waiting to see review of the new Canon Megatank G550 that has 6 ink.
@@al404 I'll look out for that, but with printers like this, it does depend on what I can get people to lend me to test.
take a look for epson c5290, it's pigment based printer
My editing laptop computer has a 70 percent gamut. If it looks good there then it will look good on paper.
But what does 70% actually mean? Not that much really.
Laptops are rarely optimal for reliable and consistent editing for print - don't like the contrast? - move your head.
Yes it can be done, just not a workflow I'd choose for any critical work
If dye ink printed photos will be laminated, still it will fade or it will last longer?
Depends on the paper, the inks, the lamination system.
Apart from saying that the print will be more robust, I've idea how they will react.
My suspicion is that dyes will still change with light exposure (esp. UV) but I've never seen any testing evidence one way or the other
@@KeithCooper thank you for the response sir! It is okay to use pigment inks like for epson L3150?will the printer be safe? 😊
What printer? If you use pigment inks in a dye printer, I'd not wager much on it working for any great length of time...
What monitor do you use ?
Depends on which computer I'm working at - currently a BenQ SW321C
My friend, Can we print both the art paper and inkject photo paper without any issue?
On what printer? See my other example videos showing prints on several different printers
Of course it depends on what you mean by issues ;-)
@@KeithCooper, I want to make my Epson L1800 as a pigment ink-based from dye ink. and my requirement is to print on sticker paper, photo paper and art paper as my source of printing is not specific.
Putting pigment inks into a dye based printer is asking for trouble - not something I'd ever try on any printer of mine.
If you want a pigment ink printer buy a pigment ink printer...
It might work for a while, but the results will be unpredictable.
@@KeithCooper Actually my plan is to buy a new printer and then put the pigment ink in replace of dye ink. My budget is not so high for a pigment ink based printer also there are limited printer related to pigment ink
Yes that will still likely not work well. You need to ask the suppliers of the ink about it.
It's something I simply wouldn't ever try - sounds like a quick way of breaking a new printer
Hi, I wonder if you could offer me any help? I’ve got a canon pixma TS9550 which I think takes dye inks but it has one black pigment cartridge also. I’m trying to print images (in black) to colour, similar to a colouring book. My issue is when I print and start to colour the ink is bleeding into the colours! Do you know if there is a way to tell the printer to print from just the pigment cartridge or if there is any other way around my problem? Thank you 😊
Unfortunately, no direct control, but the ink used depends on the media setting.
I don't know this printer, but try printing at the plain paper setting and see what happens.
Of course it could be that the solvents in the ink you are colouring with are causing the effect.
Thanks for your reply. There’re just watercolour markers.
Ah, then it's water as the solvent... You need to try different media settings and see whether the black permanence varies. It it's not an inkjet paper, it's quite possible that none of the inks are water fast. I've seen similar problems for people printing cards - where cheap card looks great, but just doesn't take the ink very well
Thanks again for your reply,. Its definitely an inkjet printer with 5 cartridges magenta, cyan, yellow and 2 blacks 1 of which is a pigment according to canon. I just wonder what the separate pigment one is used for and how to get it to print with it? As I say it’s fine with normal paper but this doesn’t take the watercolour pens/water very well so I guess I’ll just have to try and find some thicker paper.
It really is a matter of experimenting - printing with the plain paper setting is probably the way to go, but remember that both the pigments and dyes are in a water based ink - they will both run on some papers.
Thanks for this informative video. I was really looking into upgrading my cartridge based canon photo printer to an ecotank or megatank for all in one printing. I'm on the fence regarding the canon pixma g7020 which uses 70ml dye ink colors (pigment black) or the canon maxify gx7021 which uses 126ml all pigment inks. I print glossy cd labels and glossy paper primarily.
Unfortunately I've not had them to test - I only tend to get new higher end kit sent to me for a period.
However, from general experience, dyes often give cleaner looking prints on gloss media. Pigment inks can exhibit a gloss differential and slightly reduced gloss.
Since neither printer is really for high-end printing, I'd suggest the dyes will likely make for better gloss prints (obviously icc profiles will help. but in that respect you are unlikely to find anything)