That would be the 80 years war! Absolutely on my list for Dutch campaigns, all culminating with the Union of Utrecht. I place the endpoint for the AOE2 relevant time frame at 1600 ad, which would encapsulate about 3/4 of the war, so it's fair game in my eyes!
It's amusing, the AoE3 Dutch go in a similar but different direction. While being also a defensive and eco civ, the focus is much more on gold (vills cost gold and gather it faster, the main units cost more gold than food) and use banks (gold trickling buildings) as their main eco unit. Similar to you their royal guard unit is the Stadtswacht Halberdier which fits the anticav theme (their unique unit is also a anticav specialist). The dutch fortifications were tremendously hard to siege (some took years) because of the swampy terrain, a defensive bonus called "star forts" which makes enemy movement slower around fortifications could help them get to castle age more reliably.
Super interesting! As someone who knows almost nothing about aoe3 it's kind of awesome how often I accidentally stumble across mechanics that game has explored.
Dutch. (Lowest Priority civ) Infantry + economy/Naval High to late mediaeval Civ (First 40 years of the ‘’80 years war’’) Pike + Arquebusier formation. Castle in imperial age becomes a fort that fires cannon instead of arrows Duke Count Landvoogd Stadthouder UU Castle/Fort:De Geuzen - Sallet Helm ,round shield swordsmen , average damage but fast attacking side sword. Very strong vs trash , average vs gunpowder + archers, weak vs cavalry UU AR:Hand cannoneer can upgrade to Arquebusier - Does +1 more damage, fires slightly faster. Cost:20 food 70gold UT Castle:Dutch Revolt - Billhook Levies / Peasant Levies become Flemish militia + Flemish militia can be trained at Barracks. UT Imp: Counter Spanish training - Halbs gain resistance against gunpowder damage + Halbs in front provide Arquebusiers with peace of mind, allowing them to have increased RoF and +1 P armour. Civ bonus 1: Fluyt Galleons are faster moving. Civ bonus2: Careening is free Civ bonus 3:Arquebusiers garrisoned in defensive buildings can fire shot from those buildings. Civ bonus4: Upon reaching Imperial age, Farms built around mills can be reseeded as Tulip plantations that produce gold instead of food but at a very slow rate and the plantations last half as long as your respective farms and have less HP. (Easy to set fire to a plantation) Team bonus:Petards are cheaper and created 50% faster Population Disparity: (Dutch limited man power) Villagers 0.5 pop Levies 0.5 pop Allied Mercenaries (Hapsbergs,Swiss,Papal States) 0.5 pop If allied to Franks/Burgundians; Knight+cavalier 1 pop Ships 1 pop Regular land military 1.5 pop Regular land military that are garrisoned in any building 0.5 pop Barracks (Vendel companies) Halb Long Swordsmen
Dark age Peasant levy - available in dark age , cheap, cost 20 food and 20 wood, trains extremely fast. Very low hp. Spam these to defend against early rushes, overwhelm militia + man at arms with numbers. Does 1 more attack than a villager but is weaker to arrow fire than a villager. Feudal age, Upgrades to BIll hook levy - More HP, benefits from scale mail armour , cost 30 food 30wood Strong vs scout cav, same stats as Man at arms but still very weak to ranged attack. Does not benefit from forging. Can work on farms/Plantations to gather food/Gold. (Regional unit) Dutch Revolt - Flemish militia Stable (Vaan companies) Hussar If allied to Franks/Burgundians Knight+cavalier AR Crossbow HC - Arquebusier SW: BBC Mangonel Ram Monastery: Monk No Heresy No Fever Dock: De Watergeuzen Fluyt Galleon - Faster moving than regular Galleon Fire ship Heavy demo Elite Canon galleon Ship write Careening is free Blacksmith full University: No arrowslits No keep Livestock penn: Cows+Pigs Wonder:Grote Kerk Breda (Borrowed Idea from BobbyLava)
Eyyy couple references to me in this build, I'm very flattered Ivan! It's definitely a respectable take on the Dutch. I like your tulip idea a lot, that's a very clever reference! Though I don't know whether the tulip craze happened during the AOE 2 relevant time frame or whether it was like a century afterwards. Cheaper petards is also genuinely solid! I kind of wish I'd done something like that to complement the demo ship bonuses that I gave them. One big question though: why do you describe the Dutch as a lower priority civilization? Do you think that it's not nearly as important to have them as some of the other builds you've done? Also, what's the history behind the unique unit? I researched Dutch history a good bit for my build and I never found any reference to side sword infantry like that.
@@robbylava i don't think the unique unit is based around something in particular, but it is a Geus, and De Geuzen were the resistance force of the Dutch, partaking in guerilla warfare against Spanish occupation. I recommend looking up the Siege of Leiden where the Geuzen had a significant role in its liberation if you want to know more. 🙂 A significant Dutch historical event also.
Wow, that's a great dose of history there Merlin! Really appreciate you telling me about this, I will definitely look into it! I think this build does need a little something-something to spice it up in comparison to some of my newer works, so don't be surprised if you see this change in a future recraft! Thanks a lot for the input
@@robbylava Awesome! I love your enthusiasm. Let me give you a quick summary of what i learned all the way back in highschool; The city of Leiden was surrounded and starved out by Spanish forces, supplies running low as the weeks passed. Leiden almost surrendered as starvation broke their spirit, but the Geuzen came to the rescue. They broke the nearby dykes, flooding the lands surrounding the city in the course of a couple of days. The Spanish, deciding wet tents and feet wasn't worth it, abandoned their posts and left. As the Leideners found themselves liberated, they found a giant cauldron filled with vegetable stew (called hutspot) left by the Geuzen in the abandoned camp of the Spanish. And that's why to this day in Leiden they feast and eat hutspot every year (can't remember the date) to celebrate Leidens liberation. Another story i remember; During winter, if the Geuzen needed to haress or distract Spanish forces, they had an advantage; they could fashion ice skates from pigs ribs. Skating on frozen lakes and canals, they were nearly uncatchable. Those clumsy Spanish would only slip and fall on the ice! Regards from the Netherlands!
Unbelievably interesting Merlin. There's SO much to work with there! Enough that I'm quite sure I can make something interesting and unique out of it. Thanks again for the fantastic suggestion my friend, as well as the cool history lesson and kind words. Really hope you enjoy the content!
14:03 If you haven't done it yet, the Cathari could be an interesting civilisation with the same theme of a in Europe cruzade, the Albigensian Crusade.
Interesting! I had never thought to do them before. I do have a build for the Middle Eastern crusader states, but I always assumed that the Cathars were a purely military organization. Did they actually have autonomous states at any point?
@@robbylava, I don't think they got to have independent states, but I know that they were a religious movement in France and had support of some local nobles, I don't have a profound knowledge about them. I know that they were Christian dualists (they believed that there were a good supreme god and an evil god) and some other things the Catholic Church did not agree even a little bit.
@thomasfplm Cool! I will 100% keep the option in mind. If you see another good example of their presence in a future build please don't hesitate to remind me about them!
Given the Saxon resistance to Christianization (King Redbad, I believe), the Muntzer rebellion, and the Dutch resistance to re-Catholicization, I would definitely include the monastery tech that gives resistance to conversion (Devotion?). Not sure if you had it.
Certainly correct. I actually made this build well before the devotion technology was added to the game, but I would for sure add it if I were to remake this build, which I probably will do someday.
18:39 I think this would be hard to implement, because the market price has a global basis. What could maybe be done would be to have a discount that would progressively increase until it is used and then it would reset. Or have a fixed discount with "charges" so you can use only a certain amount of times and then you'd have to wait to get more of it.
I always wondered why they weren't one of the original civs in Age of Kings (either as the Dutch or as the Burgundians), considering how large their maritime empire was.
I think it's really interesting how different people can look at the same history and come to vastly different conclusions about how to represent it in game. My gut tells me that some of these are a bit too situational/out of the box (I don't see people placing farms in water near to enemy fire ships and galleons in any situation unless on some weird almost-no-land map, and an option that only makes sense to take advantage of when you're ahead seems less interesting to me than one which is more dynamic. I had some ideas for the Dutch a while back myself, focusing mainly on making the spear line more viable against things that aren't cavalry - taking inspiration from the difference between the Pikeman and the Halberdier units in AoE3, where the Pikeman is only good against cav and buildings but the Halberdier is more well rounded. Either way I think they would be an interesting addition. That said, I wouldn't agree on the likelihood: I think the driving philosophy behind adding civs in AoE2 so far has been to have all civs be at least plausible in every historical period, even if it may mean spreading across several disconnected land areas, covering multiple "real life" civs with each "in game" civ. In this situation, the Burgundians civ not only covers the Burgundian state of the 13th-15th centuries, but also through the connection of their Dutch (Flemish) holdings it can represent the Dutch people as well (and would also make sense even for such disparate states as the Kingdom of Burgundy or Lotharingia). Other good examples of this "spread" are Sicilians (Normans, Norman Sicily, Crusader States), Saracens (pretty much any Muslim state between Mesopotamia and Al-Andalus) and Slavs (post DotD still encompassing both western south Slavs like Serbs and eastern Slavs like the Rus). Any of these could be candidates for an Indians-style separation in a DLC, but I think honestly most of them are fine and it would be more interesting if they focused on areas of the world where the civ coverage is much thinner (e.g. how every West African civ is Malians, every East African civ is Ethiopians and Georgians, Armenians, Kurds all fall under Persians). Great video nonetheless, you have a new subscriber.
Hey, thank you saying so Xastor! Great to have your aboard. You make some great points here: I agree in retrospect that the water farms are more gimmicky than practical, but I *really* wanted to have something on the Civ to do with reclaiming land from the sea. Would love to hear your thoughts on other ways to accomplish this. Making the Spear-line better against other units is an interesting idea, it'd definitely help the Civ be a bit more versatile. In my build I'd say the best place for it would be on Urban Militias -- maybe having the extra damage resist be against something like Bow units rather than Cavalry, though it is slightly less grounded in my opinion. In many ways I agree with your analysis on likelihood, but the Indian DLC really opened up a lot of possible doors for the game's future in my eyes! I'm all for fleshing out AoE's map where it's thin (would love to hear your thoughts on my two West African builds sometime!), but in my opinion a balance between that and splitting current "umbrella civs" like the Indians & Slavs is optimal. So while the Burgundians do a passable job of handling the Dutch for now, I am still fairly confident that they'll become A Real Boy in the not-too-distant future! Though now that I say that, 9/10 does seem high, maybe a strong 7.5/10 instead. Thanks for the thorough and thoughtful comment my friend! Can't wait to hear your thoughts on other projects in future.
Crusader States would have to be Franks, no? Siciliano would work for Normans, but in that case they should have made a Normans civ as it is the more expansive label.
21:32 I think this idea would be interesting if the trade units did not have to stop moving to shoot, but also didn't have an attack command. This would make them safer when trading, widout turning them into military units.
You could definitely expand the trade cart bonuses to trade cogs in some form (at least the pop reduction) for some colonization flavor (possibly a bonus for the transport ships too, on that note). Speaking of Slavs we totally need some more of those! (personally rooting for Moravians even if they weren't as prominent on the European stage as most civs present in the game)
Excellent idea with the transport ships! I'm currently thinking that the half population trade unit bonus might be too strong, so maybe I can make a different bonus for a trade units and transports alike. Do you think that colonization is too far outside of the AOE to relevant time frame to bear referencing? Totally agree with you that we need more Slavic civs! I'd personally love to see Novgorod or Serbia, but the moravians would be a great add too! What would you envision them looking like, roughly speaking?
@@robbylava Yes, I suppose that specifically Dutch colonizing endeavors might be too far into the future (but then again one could look at it in the way of all these European, Asian, African and American civilizations already meddling, so might as well :D) As for the Moravians (and for my own disclaimer - I can barely even call myself a history enthusiast), the first thing coming to mind is that it was during Great Moravia's lifespan that Cyril and Methodius were summoned to the area to bring writing and legal system (they also brought a bit of christianity lol). This is not only an important event in its history, but also one with great potential to be translated into game mechanics creatively. For the actual Moravians, a lot of the territory they occupied was mostly hills, forests or mountains (honorable mention: marshes and rivers), so perhaps implementing some sort of "rough terrain" or elevation (though in terms of gameplay this would be naturally inconsistent) bonus would make sense. Another thing that cannot be omitted is the abundance of fortification present (even to this day), most notably large hill forts (though there were a lot fortifications in marshes and on river islands, too) built with a lot of wood alongside the expected stone, so perhaps their castles could have a portion of their cost in wood (and even reduced in total on top of that, balanced out by lower attack, maybe, seeing as there really were quite a lot of these - it's not unusual to stumble upon remnants of these when strolling through a forest in Slovakia :)). As far as the warfare is concerned, I sadly don't have a proper idea for a unique unit, "zbrojnosh" and "druzhina" get tossed around in videogames for West Slavs (or Slavs in general), with the former simply meaning "soldier" (literally armor-wearer) and the latter already being in the game (though in a pretty random way). Bearded axe is often listed as a typical weapon for West Slavs (spears too), while archery should be on the weaker side. Also, Great Moravia apparently had a surprisingly numerous heavy cavalry. Economically, agriculture could be buffed (afaik farming indeed already is for Slavs), and smithing was definitely big in Great Moravia, so some bonuses for blacksmith would make sense. For campaigns, feel free to look up Rastislav (who is the one who summoned Cyril and Methodius) and Svätopluk I. (arguably the most famous Great Moravian ruler, has got some cool legends), and maybe the lengthy fight for independence from Francia. Additional notes: - a unique model for the house would be a great touch, look up "polozemnica" or "zemlyanka", these were pit-houses used by Slavic people (not Moravians specifically but this could be used for all Slavic civs perhaps); this could also be an actual bonus, maybe making houses more durable - a lot of religious architecture is also present, this could result in a special model for the church as well - Great Moravian rulers were mostly referred to as dukes rather than kings, so in regicide the king could be a duke instead as a tiny fun touch - the only idea for a wonder I have comes from wikipedia, where Rastislav's fortress apparently impressed a Frankish chronicler - "firmissimum, ut feritur, vallum" - once again stressing the arrival of Cyril and Methodius and the christianization of the area, should definitely be reflected in some sort of way, even if only abstractly - many of the mentioned fortifications apparently also functioned as centers of commerce, crafts and residence of elites, this could result in some unusual bonuses - in my understanding - which is admittedly shallow - the region was still largely pagan during Great Moravia's lifespan, but that's a whole another topic (perhaps the monks could convert their own units to christianity to reflect the many attempts to convert the area lol) - to my surprise, the economy seems to have relied to a decent extent on raiding and selling slaves, if perhaps some raiding infantry (instead of cavalry) could be made to work, it would provide some uniqueness to the civ
@@arsenixkikokoro that's extremely cool, what a great crash course to a part of History I knew absolutely nothing about. Thank you so much monk! Off the top of your head, do you have a rough idea of the time frame this period would encapsulate? I'm quite surprised to hear that paganism was still holding out, considering even the stubborn lithuanians and swedes were pretty firmly Christian not long after the turn of the millennium.
@@arsenixkikokoro still totally falls within the AOE 2 relevant time frame. I'll put it on my list! If nothing else, it'll be a great opportunity to delve further into a period of History I never even knew existed. Thanks Monk!
I just got back to AoE2 after a months long break and youtube decides to throw this video at me. Nicely done. I'm a big fan of theorycrafting civs and content for games that have systems in place that make exercises like this feel organic (I'm also a fan of trying to introduce more complexities and unique mechanics that fit the game in question as you yourself mentioned). Two questions, first about the unique unit, isn't it a bit too... unfocused? Specifically the big where it works as a very limited villager. Before I go on I'll preface this by saying that this might be me having a different design philosophy in mind than you, but when I look at a unit I figure every thing it can do is part of its cost so to speak, as in each extra mechanic/pro/benefit it has necessarily asks for either a higher cost or for its other elements that make it up to be weakened slightly in response. So with that in mind, doesn't the gathering mechanic gimp them a lot since you're effectively paying for two roles that are polar opposites (an economy one and a military one)? The military side suffers cause of the "opportunity cost" of the villager mechanic and the vill aspect seems beyond situational cause committing to any kind of large number of them to have a safe eco seems like it'd just result in getting outboomed and since they're castle units it's not like they'll up eco unit production by a lot or quickly into the castle age either. Second... do you have any thoughts on what the Rome DLC could actually entail? When I saw the initial news I was somewhat excited, but reading more into it it doesn't sound like a full on standard civ expansion is planned which is rather disappointing imo (tho also somewhat understandable I guess given time frames, AoE and AoE2 existing civs).
Thank you for the kind words my friend! It's great to have you back in the community! You make very good points about the unique unit. Here's more of my thought behind the design: a player is normally confined to having a bit over half of their population firmly committed to economy in late game scenarios. Flemish revolution showed how warping it was to suddenly transform all of that economy pop space into military, but my hope was that the Burgher could pull off a similar dynamic in a much more enjoyable and nuanced way. Gradually weaving them in over the course of the game rather than a single all or nothing button in post imperial felt like a healthier way to introduce that dynamic. Now, I have zero idea whether this would actually work in practice! You are definitely right that with their redundancy they certainly wouldn't be the right decision and all scenarios. But their greater speed would hopefully give them a unique niche over long swords, and being able to produce them from a castle would effectively give you another pseudo Town center to boom from! Regardless, it's a super interesting gameplay dynamic to consider, and I really appreciate you engaging with it! As for the Rome DLC, it's been a couple days now and my hype has largely died down. I agree with you that it will probably not be what we all were hoping for, but I still want to push ahead with that Rome theorycraft! My best guess, and I think it would be a very smart idea for them to do this, is that they might try to experiment with porting AOE1 into the AOE2 engine, but even that I think is a long shot. Thanks for your thoughtful comment Crown. If you ever happen to have the time, I'd love to hear your thoughts on some of my other builds!
Looking at their trash units the Dutch don't leave much to be desired. Their Halberdiers are fantastic. They have 2 more Melee Armor, are created 33% faster and deal 20% more bonus damage. They're like Bohemian, Goth (kinda), and Teuton Halbs all rolled into one! Their Skirmishers aren't too bad either. They're only missing Thumb Ring (trivial) and like their Halbs are created 33% faster and deal 20% more Bonus Damage, specifically guarenteed at least one more. Oh and they also have 1 more Melee Armor (wow). Their biggest weakness is their Hussars. Aside from not directly benefiting from any of their bonuses, they're also missing Bloodlines and Plate Barding Armor. I'd still say they're usable for situations where you'd want Hussars, just not for much, if anything, else. Regardless, combined with their Market bonus giving them some occasional extra pocket change and the Dutch shouls be pretty comfortable in Trash fights. I'd give their Trash an A-, which might seem low for being a Levy civ, but honstly, while their Halbs are, again, fantastic their Skirmishers are only a bit above average and their Hussars below average, and their Market bonus doesn't really give you THAT much extra gold over the long run. Don't get me wrong, they're still pretty good, just not absolute top tier.
Capital idea! I've thought about divvying up the Vikings before, and now seems as good a time as any. Thanks for the suggestions my friend! How'd you like this build?
Hello. I'd just like to point out that Hainaut was historically always part of 'the Netherlands', but culturally and linguistically they are Francophone. They didn't even join the union of Utrecht, but the union of Arras. I just thought you'd like to know.
Hey, I appreciate the clarification Jorge! I actually had no idea about that, really cool piece of history. Did you see any other misses in my history section? Thanks for commenting my friend!
@@robbylava I can't say if there were any more mistakes, because I don't know a lot about Dutch history myself. I'm Flemish, and unfortunately we don't seem to care a lot about Dutch and Belgian history. I can say two more things though. "Begroeting" is not a way for Dutch speaking people to greet each other. Begroeting is a noun. It should be "gegroet". Secondly, if the Dutch are ever added to aoe2, they should represent Flanders too. Throughout history Flanders was absolutely a core part of Dutch civilisation. Sadly though, because of unfortunate developments in history, Flanders is not a part of the Netherlands today. It sounded a little bit strange when you called the Battle of the Golden Spurs an important event in Dutch history. In a medieval context, Flanders was undeniably Dutch, but in a modern context the word 'Dutch' has a different political meaning that doesn't include Flanders, because borders don't follow ethnic, linguistic or cultural lines.
Thanks for clarifying the greeting I used! Do you know if the suggestion you gave there would have been used during the AOE 2 time frame as well? I totally agree that I would include the Flemish in this grander Dutch civilization. That's part of the reason I removed Flemish revolution from the burgundians as part of this build (plus the fact that it sucks of course heheheh) Another commenter asked me something about this build that I'd love to hear your take on -- do you think that multiple Dutch civilizations could be merited rather than just the single overarching one? From what I learned about Dutch history doing this video, the three I would probably pick would be the Frisians, Flemish, and Hollanders, but I'd be very interested to hear what you think about it since you seem to know a lot about Dutch history!
@@robbylava Dutch and Flemish people these days say "hallo" as a standard greeting, and this is what they use in aoe3, but this is actually anachronistic. "Gegroet" and "goedendag" (like the weapon) were definitely used in the Middle Ages. Today they sound formal, but I would guess they used to be perfectly neutral. There's also "dag", but I believe this is only a modern abbreviation of "goedendag". I would not split the Dutch. If you do this, you might end up splitting Teutons and Italians in 100 civs too. I don't think the different regions of the Netherlands were that different. Every civ you could think of had regional variation, and just because some were politically divided, doesn't mean they weren't the same "civilisation". I suppose it depends on your interpretation of the term. But hey, this is your channel, do what you want. I'd like to mention however, that the "big 3" are generally considered to be Flanders, Brabant and Holland, in chronological order. Friesland might have been important in the early Middle Ages, but I have no idea honestly. I don't know a whole lot about Dutch history.
Excellent! I will be sure to make a note of that in my next recraft video, really appreciate you giving me some insider knowledge! My research skills are very often not up to the task heheheh And duly noted about splitting the Dutch! It sounds like a project I might tackle down the line but certainly not while I have much juicier builds to work on. Since pretty much all I do on this channel is civilization builds I have no doubt I will end up splitting pretty much everything, just to see how far I can take it, and when I do, who knows? I might dive deeper into the Dutch! Really appreciate you clarifying The Big Three, that'll be a great starting point for me if I choose to do so. I would definitely add the Frisians to that list, since from my research for this video I did learn that they were fairly impactful earlier on in the middle ages! Thanks again for all the feedback Jorge.
The best one I found is a guy named MantisAOE2. His builds are a lot more conventional than mine, probably a lot better if I'm honest! But even more interestingly, he actually has the skills to program his civilizations into the game, so he actually shows how they might look in practice! As you might expect, he only uploads once every couple months though. Definitely check out his stuff! I only ever watch his videos after I take my own shot at one of the civilizations he covers, so maybe I'll see you in his comments in the future once I put out a few more videos.
@@robbylava Can confirm ! Mantis is an amazing source of inspiration for Theorytical Civs. Stumbled upon your video recently, and that's an interesting take on the theorycrafting, too ! Great work !
I have some ideas for a monk civ if you're interested. Monastery can be built in the feudal age, but can only build monks in castle age; but can build a unit called a friar. The friar would cost 30 food and 20 gold, can't convert or pick up relics but can heal units, and also collect resources perhaps at a lower rate than normal villagers. That's it; secular monks that would work like ordinary people were very important in the middle ages but they're pretty much lacking from AoE2 which perhaps could be interesting to fix.
That's a fantastic idea Jack. The feudal age monastery is similar to my Georgians build, which I highly recommend if you haven't seen it yet! I think balance wise the downside of this idea is it effectively allow you to get more than one town center before Castle age. Even if friars were worse at collecting than villagers, every little bit helps, and it could allow for an absolutely brutal boom. Nevertheless I absolutely love where you're going with this idea. I have a video coming up in the not too distant future about how monks might be rebalanced. Would you mind if I threw this idea in there with credit to you? Thanks a lot for the input Jack! I look forward to hearing from you more in future.
@@robbylava I'll definitely check it out :) it's such fun to see all these potential civs thought out by fans. That's true, but I think it's fine if it comes at a cost, in this case if the units cost even a small amount of gold; similarly to how the Cuman 2d TC is slower to build and comes at the expense of a good castle age time. With tweaks here and there, it merely determines how a civilisation can be played differently than others, after all. I wouldn't mind at all, it's great that you like this idea. Keep up the great content.
@@JackOpulski you make a good point about the comparison to cuman Town centers! And thank you so much for the kind words, I can't wait to hear what you think about other builds I put out in the future
Just I personal preference. I would prefer it dubbed as a Frisian civ. Dutch feel way out of line for the time period, and many of the smaller duchies within the HRE don't fell like a strong enough of a player here. The Frisian kingdom is thus the closest stand-in for a Dutch state in the region for me.
That's definitely a reasonable perspective Crossil -- a couple of other commenters have mentioned that as well. Do you think that the current bonuses I have listed here would fit well for a Frisian civilization, or do you think I would need to change some? I've even had a couple of commenters say that I could probably split up this Dutch build into several civs, including the Frisians, Flemish, and Hollanders. What do you think of this, reckon there's enough material to merit several civilizations?
@@robbylava I mostly don't really get too much into gameplay specifics. I just roll with it, for the most part. RTS games aren't something I tend to latch realism onto as a basis of gameplay. What matters to me is mostly flavour, which in AoE2 comes from Wonders, architecture, unique units, and sometimes bonuses like the Condottiero being a mercenary. So apologies but, I didn't really do a deep dive into bonuses and gameplay philosophy. I could, it's just not that much of an interest for me. I just like discussing what civilizations could be added and pray that the devs don''t screw up gameplay and game design too hard. Aside from this, I guess I do like discussing which campaigns or historical battles would be nice to have. For which civs to add here, there are many ways to cut civs. I just don't feel that compelled to go for ones that can be somewhat reasonably represented by a different civ that's in some form of lineage with the one already present. Matter of priorities, really. As far as Germanic peoples go, Swiss are such an obvious choice. And the Frisians, if we want a lowlands specific civ. Then there's the Saxons, who I only want because the Anglo-Saxons in the Hastings scenario should NOT be Goths, and then you can have the Saxons in both Britain and in German lands, should the scenarios call for it.
Totally reasonable man! I know that my personal preferences for high realism are far from universal. But flavor is very high on my list too! I especially love interesting and realistic voice lines, though beautiful architecture with cool regional skins is probably a close second for me at least. Regardless, I hope you enjoyed the build man! Since you're mechanically focused I'm sure some of my stuff is much too wacky for your tastes, but if you found it interesting and fun to watch despite that then that's all I could ever hope for.
11:30 Bari is a terrible campaign. I hate it. They had the story of Belisarius and Justinian, or the whole Byzantine reconquest of Italy, but they had to go for the unknown city. They wasted one of the most loved civs in the game. But surely there's a fan-made campaign about it. Thank you as always for your incredible vids and the work you put in them.
So I was checking the civ doc and was a bit confused by Urban Militas. It does say that Burghers, Halberdiers and Skirmishers deal 20% more bonus damage, but it also says "min +1". What does it mean? Does it mean that they deal at least one more, so 2, damage against their bonus damage targets, or is it all targets? What does it mean?
Pardon me Erik, sorry that language isn't clear! What it means is that the extra bonus damage is guaranteed to be at least plus one even if the 20% wouldn't normally bring it there. For example, elite skirmishers only have +3 bonus damage against spearmen, so this is specifying that they would still get 1 additional bonus damage even though 20% of 3 is substantially less than that. Does that make sense?
@@robbylava I understand. I think then that it should say something like "(minimum +1 bonus damage), in brackets, or whatever you call that, rather than in commas, the latter of which kind of suggests to me that it's an additional effect of Urban Militias rather an "insurence", for lack of a better word, of the first effect. Kind of like how Britons' Yeomen is two effects in one tech.
Oh heheh I see. I have a lot of respect for aoe3. I think I might do a video about it at some point in the future -- in all honesty I think it does a much better job than aoe2 overall at being historically accurate. And yet even so I never really got into it. To me it felt a lot like playing Warcraft 3, which is a game I adore, but it's just... clunkier (for want of a better word) than AOE2. Absolutely nothing wrong with liking it though. What makes you drawn to the game, crusader?
@@robbylava Yeah I agree that AOE3 actually does a really good job of sticking to the historically accuracy of a lot of civilizations in many ways. (Except for the Germans lol) I also feel the same way that AOE3 is much more like Warcraft 3 or even more like Age of Mythology. But I grew up mostly playing Warcraft 3 more than AOE2 so that style of RTS is just much more comfortable to me to play. I also find historical 1500s-1800s to be a very unique time period for an RTS game + it is probably the most unique of all the Age of Empires games in my opinion. These types of videos you make are really awesome tho and inspire me to make similar ones for AOE3 haha Im working towards a PHD in medieval history myself with a secondary focus in early modern Europe so this sort of stuff I love to see!
I also played tons of Warcraft 3 growing up! But while I love the game (especially the mods, I must have sunk a thousand hours into those alone) it never quite grabbed me the same way as AOE2 did. Probably unsurprising therefore that I never quite gravitated to aoe3 as much. I do like the era, but medieval times and antiquity have always appealed to me a little bit more than Renaissance onwards. Also WOW dude that is so cool! The fact that you are so much more qualified than me to talk about history and still think my videos are cool is a massive compliment. Hey! If you ever like to talk with me about any of your builds, do a collaboration on my channel or yours, or even just want to have another set of eyes on anything you're working on, please do feel free to reach out to me! My email is viewable in the about tab of my channel if you're viewing on PC, and it would be an absolute pleasure to hear from you. But regardless, I really appreciate you taking the time to comment man! Very much hope I get to hear from you more in the future!
Not exactly in AoE2 timeline, but you could do the Dutch v. Spanish war with Franks, Britons, Burgundians, Teutons, and reworked Vikings (Danes)
That would be the 80 years war! Absolutely on my list for Dutch campaigns, all culminating with the Union of Utrecht. I place the endpoint for the AOE2 relevant time frame at 1600 ad, which would encapsulate about 3/4 of the war, so it's fair game in my eyes!
It's amusing, the AoE3 Dutch go in a similar but different direction. While being also a defensive and eco civ, the focus is much more on gold (vills cost gold and gather it faster, the main units cost more gold than food) and use banks (gold trickling buildings) as their main eco unit. Similar to you their royal guard unit is the Stadtswacht Halberdier which fits the anticav theme (their unique unit is also a anticav specialist). The dutch fortifications were tremendously hard to siege (some took years) because of the swampy terrain, a defensive bonus called "star forts" which makes enemy movement slower around fortifications could help them get to castle age more reliably.
Super interesting! As someone who knows almost nothing about aoe3 it's kind of awesome how often I accidentally stumble across mechanics that game has explored.
17:51
Trade carts costing half population feels like a good team bonus.
I love this idea
Dutch.
(Lowest Priority civ)
Infantry + economy/Naval High to late mediaeval Civ
(First 40 years of the ‘’80 years war’’)
Pike + Arquebusier formation.
Castle in imperial age becomes a fort that fires cannon instead of arrows
Duke
Count
Landvoogd
Stadthouder
UU Castle/Fort:De Geuzen - Sallet Helm ,round shield swordsmen , average damage but fast attacking side sword.
Very strong vs trash , average vs gunpowder + archers, weak vs cavalry
UU AR:Hand cannoneer can upgrade to Arquebusier - Does +1 more damage, fires slightly faster.
Cost:20 food 70gold
UT Castle:Dutch Revolt - Billhook Levies / Peasant Levies become Flemish militia + Flemish militia can be trained at Barracks.
UT Imp: Counter Spanish training - Halbs gain resistance against gunpowder damage + Halbs in front provide Arquebusiers with peace of mind, allowing them to have increased RoF and +1 P armour.
Civ bonus 1: Fluyt Galleons are faster moving.
Civ bonus2: Careening is free
Civ bonus 3:Arquebusiers garrisoned in defensive buildings can fire shot from those buildings.
Civ bonus4: Upon reaching Imperial age, Farms built around mills can be reseeded as Tulip plantations that produce gold instead of food but at a very slow rate and the plantations last half as long as your respective farms and have less HP. (Easy to set fire to a plantation)
Team bonus:Petards are cheaper and created 50% faster
Population Disparity: (Dutch limited man power)
Villagers 0.5 pop
Levies 0.5 pop
Allied Mercenaries (Hapsbergs,Swiss,Papal States) 0.5 pop
If allied to Franks/Burgundians; Knight+cavalier 1 pop
Ships 1 pop
Regular land military 1.5 pop
Regular land military that are garrisoned in any building 0.5 pop
Barracks (Vendel companies)
Halb
Long Swordsmen
Dark age Peasant levy - available in dark age , cheap, cost 20 food and 20 wood, trains extremely fast. Very low hp.
Spam these to defend against early rushes, overwhelm militia + man at arms with numbers.
Does 1 more attack than a villager but is weaker to arrow fire than a villager.
Feudal age, Upgrades to BIll hook levy - More HP, benefits from scale mail armour , cost 30 food 30wood
Strong vs scout cav, same stats as Man at arms but still very weak to ranged attack. Does not benefit from forging. Can work on farms/Plantations to gather food/Gold. (Regional unit)
Dutch Revolt - Flemish militia
Stable (Vaan companies)
Hussar
If allied to Franks/Burgundians Knight+cavalier
AR
Crossbow
HC - Arquebusier
SW:
BBC
Mangonel
Ram
Monastery:
Monk
No Heresy
No Fever
Dock: De Watergeuzen
Fluyt Galleon - Faster moving than regular Galleon
Fire ship
Heavy demo
Elite Canon galleon
Ship write
Careening is free
Blacksmith full
University:
No arrowslits
No keep
Livestock penn: Cows+Pigs
Wonder:Grote Kerk Breda (Borrowed Idea from BobbyLava)
Eyyy couple references to me in this build, I'm very flattered Ivan!
It's definitely a respectable take on the Dutch. I like your tulip idea a lot, that's a very clever reference! Though I don't know whether the tulip craze happened during the AOE 2 relevant time frame or whether it was like a century afterwards.
Cheaper petards is also genuinely solid! I kind of wish I'd done something like that to complement the demo ship bonuses that I gave them.
One big question though: why do you describe the Dutch as a lower priority civilization? Do you think that it's not nearly as important to have them as some of the other builds you've done?
Also, what's the history behind the unique unit? I researched Dutch history a good bit for my build and I never found any reference to side sword infantry like that.
@@robbylava i don't think the unique unit is based around something in particular, but it is a Geus, and De Geuzen were the resistance force of the Dutch, partaking in guerilla warfare against Spanish occupation. I recommend looking up the Siege of Leiden where the Geuzen had a significant role in its liberation if you want to know more. 🙂 A significant Dutch historical event also.
Wow, that's a great dose of history there Merlin! Really appreciate you telling me about this, I will definitely look into it! I think this build does need a little something-something to spice it up in comparison to some of my newer works, so don't be surprised if you see this change in a future recraft!
Thanks a lot for the input
@@robbylava Awesome! I love your enthusiasm.
Let me give you a quick summary of what i learned all the way back in highschool;
The city of Leiden was surrounded and starved out by Spanish forces, supplies running low as the weeks passed. Leiden almost surrendered as starvation broke their spirit, but the Geuzen came to the rescue. They broke the nearby dykes, flooding the lands surrounding the city in the course of a couple of days. The Spanish, deciding wet tents and feet wasn't worth it, abandoned their posts and left. As the Leideners found themselves liberated, they found a giant cauldron filled with vegetable stew (called hutspot) left by the Geuzen in the abandoned camp of the Spanish. And that's why to this day in Leiden they feast and eat hutspot every year (can't remember the date) to celebrate Leidens liberation.
Another story i remember;
During winter, if the Geuzen needed to haress or distract Spanish forces, they had an advantage; they could fashion ice skates from pigs ribs. Skating on frozen lakes and canals, they were nearly uncatchable. Those clumsy Spanish would only slip and fall on the ice!
Regards from the Netherlands!
Unbelievably interesting Merlin. There's SO much to work with there! Enough that I'm quite sure I can make something interesting and unique out of it.
Thanks again for the fantastic suggestion my friend, as well as the cool history lesson and kind words. Really hope you enjoy the content!
19:30
I love this idea.
14:03
If you haven't done it yet, the Cathari could be an interesting civilisation with the same theme of a in Europe cruzade, the Albigensian Crusade.
Interesting! I had never thought to do them before. I do have a build for the Middle Eastern crusader states, but I always assumed that the Cathars were a purely military organization. Did they actually have autonomous states at any point?
@@robbylava, I don't think they got to have independent states, but I know that they were a religious movement in France and had support of some local nobles, I don't have a profound knowledge about them.
I know that they were Christian dualists (they believed that there were a good supreme god and an evil god) and some other things the Catholic Church did not agree even a little bit.
@thomasfplm Cool! I will 100% keep the option in mind. If you see another good example of their presence in a future build please don't hesitate to remind me about them!
Given the Saxon resistance to Christianization (King Redbad, I believe), the Muntzer rebellion, and the Dutch resistance to re-Catholicization, I would definitely include the monastery tech that gives resistance to conversion (Devotion?). Not sure if you had it.
Certainly correct. I actually made this build well before the devotion technology was added to the game, but I would for sure add it if I were to remake this build, which I probably will do someday.
18:39
I think this would be hard to implement, because the market price has a global basis.
What could maybe be done would be to have a discount that would progressively increase until it is used and then it would reset.
Or have a fixed discount with "charges" so you can use only a certain amount of times and then you'd have to wait to get more of it.
Totally agree the current design is probably not feasible hehehe. I like your proposed solutions though!
I always wondered why they weren't one of the original civs in Age of Kings (either as the Dutch or as the Burgundians), considering how large their maritime empire was.
The VOC was huge (literally historically unparalleled) in the 1600s, but the AoE2 timeline really ends somewhere in the 16th century.
I think it's really interesting how different people can look at the same history and come to vastly different conclusions about how to represent it in game. My gut tells me that some of these are a bit too situational/out of the box (I don't see people placing farms in water near to enemy fire ships and galleons in any situation unless on some weird almost-no-land map, and an option that only makes sense to take advantage of when you're ahead seems less interesting to me than one which is more dynamic.
I had some ideas for the Dutch a while back myself, focusing mainly on making the spear line more viable against things that aren't cavalry - taking inspiration from the difference between the Pikeman and the Halberdier units in AoE3, where the Pikeman is only good against cav and buildings but the Halberdier is more well rounded. Either way I think they would be an interesting addition.
That said, I wouldn't agree on the likelihood: I think the driving philosophy behind adding civs in AoE2 so far has been to have all civs be at least plausible in every historical period, even if it may mean spreading across several disconnected land areas, covering multiple "real life" civs with each "in game" civ. In this situation, the Burgundians civ not only covers the Burgundian state of the 13th-15th centuries, but also through the connection of their Dutch (Flemish) holdings it can represent the Dutch people as well (and would also make sense even for such disparate states as the Kingdom of Burgundy or Lotharingia). Other good examples of this "spread" are Sicilians (Normans, Norman Sicily, Crusader States), Saracens (pretty much any Muslim state between Mesopotamia and Al-Andalus) and Slavs (post DotD still encompassing both western south Slavs like Serbs and eastern Slavs like the Rus). Any of these could be candidates for an Indians-style separation in a DLC, but I think honestly most of them are fine and it would be more interesting if they focused on areas of the world where the civ coverage is much thinner (e.g. how every West African civ is Malians, every East African civ is Ethiopians and Georgians, Armenians, Kurds all fall under Persians).
Great video nonetheless, you have a new subscriber.
Hey, thank you saying so Xastor! Great to have your aboard.
You make some great points here: I agree in retrospect that the water farms are more gimmicky than practical, but I *really* wanted to have something on the Civ to do with reclaiming land from the sea. Would love to hear your thoughts on other ways to accomplish this.
Making the Spear-line better against other units is an interesting idea, it'd definitely help the Civ be a bit more versatile. In my build I'd say the best place for it would be on Urban Militias -- maybe having the extra damage resist be against something like Bow units rather than Cavalry, though it is slightly less grounded in my opinion.
In many ways I agree with your analysis on likelihood, but the Indian DLC really opened up a lot of possible doors for the game's future in my eyes! I'm all for fleshing out AoE's map where it's thin (would love to hear your thoughts on my two West African builds sometime!), but in my opinion a balance between that and splitting current "umbrella civs" like the Indians & Slavs is optimal. So while the Burgundians do a passable job of handling the Dutch for now, I am still fairly confident that they'll become A Real Boy in the not-too-distant future!
Though now that I say that, 9/10 does seem high, maybe a strong 7.5/10 instead.
Thanks for the thorough and thoughtful comment my friend! Can't wait to hear your thoughts on other projects in future.
Crusader States would have to be Franks, no? Siciliano would work for Normans, but in that case they should have made a Normans civ as it is the more expansive label.
33:23
Now I forgot if it was Spirit of the Law or T-west who recently made a video about 2x2 farms.
21:32
I think this idea would be interesting if the trade units did not have to stop moving to shoot, but also didn't have an attack command.
This would make them safer when trading, widout turning them into military units.
You could definitely expand the trade cart bonuses to trade cogs in some form (at least the pop reduction) for some colonization flavor (possibly a bonus for the transport ships too, on that note).
Speaking of Slavs we totally need some more of those! (personally rooting for Moravians even if they weren't as prominent on the European stage as most civs present in the game)
Excellent idea with the transport ships! I'm currently thinking that the half population trade unit bonus might be too strong, so maybe I can make a different bonus for a trade units and transports alike. Do you think that colonization is too far outside of the AOE to relevant time frame to bear referencing?
Totally agree with you that we need more Slavic civs! I'd personally love to see Novgorod or Serbia, but the moravians would be a great add too! What would you envision them looking like, roughly speaking?
@@robbylava Yes, I suppose that specifically Dutch colonizing endeavors might be too far into the future (but then again one could look at it in the way of all these European, Asian, African and American civilizations already meddling, so might as well :D)
As for the Moravians (and for my own disclaimer - I can barely even call myself a history enthusiast), the first thing coming to mind is that it was during Great Moravia's lifespan that Cyril and Methodius were summoned to the area to bring writing and legal system (they also brought a bit of christianity lol). This is not only an important event in its history, but also one with great potential to be translated into game mechanics creatively.
For the actual Moravians, a lot of the territory they occupied was mostly hills, forests or mountains (honorable mention: marshes and rivers), so perhaps implementing some sort of "rough terrain" or elevation (though in terms of gameplay this would be naturally inconsistent) bonus would make sense.
Another thing that cannot be omitted is the abundance of fortification present (even to this day), most notably large hill forts (though there were a lot fortifications in marshes and on river islands, too) built with a lot of wood alongside the expected stone, so perhaps their castles could have a portion of their cost in wood (and even reduced in total on top of that, balanced out by lower attack, maybe, seeing as there really were quite a lot of these - it's not unusual to stumble upon remnants of these when strolling through a forest in Slovakia :)).
As far as the warfare is concerned, I sadly don't have a proper idea for a unique unit, "zbrojnosh" and "druzhina" get tossed around in videogames for West Slavs (or Slavs in general), with the former simply meaning "soldier" (literally armor-wearer) and the latter already being in the game (though in a pretty random way). Bearded axe is often listed as a typical weapon for West Slavs (spears too), while archery should be on the weaker side. Also, Great Moravia apparently had a surprisingly numerous heavy cavalry.
Economically, agriculture could be buffed (afaik farming indeed already is for Slavs), and smithing was definitely big in Great Moravia, so some bonuses for blacksmith would make sense.
For campaigns, feel free to look up Rastislav (who is the one who summoned Cyril and Methodius) and Svätopluk I. (arguably the most famous Great Moravian ruler, has got some cool legends), and maybe the lengthy fight for independence from Francia.
Additional notes:
- a unique model for the house would be a great touch, look up "polozemnica" or "zemlyanka", these were pit-houses used by Slavic people (not Moravians specifically but this could be used for all Slavic civs perhaps); this could also be an actual bonus, maybe making houses more durable
- a lot of religious architecture is also present, this could result in a special model for the church as well
- Great Moravian rulers were mostly referred to as dukes rather than kings, so in regicide the king could be a duke instead as a tiny fun touch
- the only idea for a wonder I have comes from wikipedia, where Rastislav's fortress apparently impressed a Frankish chronicler - "firmissimum, ut feritur, vallum"
- once again stressing the arrival of Cyril and Methodius and the christianization of the area, should definitely be reflected in some sort of way, even if only abstractly
- many of the mentioned fortifications apparently also functioned as centers of commerce, crafts and residence of elites, this could result in some unusual bonuses
- in my understanding - which is admittedly shallow - the region was still largely pagan during Great Moravia's lifespan, but that's a whole another topic (perhaps the monks could convert their own units to christianity to reflect the many attempts to convert the area lol)
- to my surprise, the economy seems to have relied to a decent extent on raiding and selling slaves, if perhaps some raiding infantry (instead of cavalry) could be made to work, it would provide some uniqueness to the civ
@@arsenixkikokoro that's extremely cool, what a great crash course to a part of History I knew absolutely nothing about. Thank you so much monk! Off the top of your head, do you have a rough idea of the time frame this period would encapsulate? I'm quite surprised to hear that paganism was still holding out, considering even the stubborn lithuanians and swedes were pretty firmly Christian not long after the turn of the millennium.
@@robbylava Great Moravia existed from 833 to 907, so a bit earlier than what you're mentioning.
@@arsenixkikokoro still totally falls within the AOE 2 relevant time frame. I'll put it on my list! If nothing else, it'll be a great opportunity to delve further into a period of History I never even knew existed. Thanks Monk!
I just got back to AoE2 after a months long break and youtube decides to throw this video at me. Nicely done. I'm a big fan of theorycrafting civs and content for games that have systems in place that make exercises like this feel organic (I'm also a fan of trying to introduce more complexities and unique mechanics that fit the game in question as you yourself mentioned). Two questions, first about the unique unit, isn't it a bit too... unfocused? Specifically the big where it works as a very limited villager. Before I go on I'll preface this by saying that this might be me having a different design philosophy in mind than you, but when I look at a unit I figure every thing it can do is part of its cost so to speak, as in each extra mechanic/pro/benefit it has necessarily asks for either a higher cost or for its other elements that make it up to be weakened slightly in response. So with that in mind, doesn't the gathering mechanic gimp them a lot since you're effectively paying for two roles that are polar opposites (an economy one and a military one)? The military side suffers cause of the "opportunity cost" of the villager mechanic and the vill aspect seems beyond situational cause committing to any kind of large number of them to have a safe eco seems like it'd just result in getting outboomed and since they're castle units it's not like they'll up eco unit production by a lot or quickly into the castle age either. Second... do you have any thoughts on what the Rome DLC could actually entail? When I saw the initial news I was somewhat excited, but reading more into it it doesn't sound like a full on standard civ expansion is planned which is rather disappointing imo (tho also somewhat understandable I guess given time frames, AoE and AoE2 existing civs).
Thank you for the kind words my friend! It's great to have you back in the community!
You make very good points about the unique unit. Here's more of my thought behind the design: a player is normally confined to having a bit over half of their population firmly committed to economy in late game scenarios. Flemish revolution showed how warping it was to suddenly transform all of that economy pop space into military, but my hope was that the Burgher could pull off a similar dynamic in a much more enjoyable and nuanced way. Gradually weaving them in over the course of the game rather than a single all or nothing button in post imperial felt like a healthier way to introduce that dynamic.
Now, I have zero idea whether this would actually work in practice! You are definitely right that with their redundancy they certainly wouldn't be the right decision and all scenarios. But their greater speed would hopefully give them a unique niche over long swords, and being able to produce them from a castle would effectively give you another pseudo Town center to boom from!
Regardless, it's a super interesting gameplay dynamic to consider, and I really appreciate you engaging with it!
As for the Rome DLC, it's been a couple days now and my hype has largely died down. I agree with you that it will probably not be what we all were hoping for, but I still want to push ahead with that Rome theorycraft! My best guess, and I think it would be a very smart idea for them to do this, is that they might try to experiment with porting AOE1 into the AOE2 engine, but even that I think is a long shot.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment Crown. If you ever happen to have the time, I'd love to hear your thoughts on some of my other builds!
Looking at their trash units the Dutch don't leave much to be desired. Their Halberdiers are fantastic. They have 2 more Melee Armor, are created 33% faster and deal 20% more bonus damage. They're like Bohemian, Goth (kinda), and Teuton Halbs all rolled into one! Their Skirmishers aren't too bad either. They're only missing Thumb Ring (trivial) and like their Halbs are created 33% faster and deal 20% more Bonus Damage, specifically guarenteed at least one more. Oh and they also have 1 more Melee Armor (wow). Their biggest weakness is their Hussars. Aside from not directly benefiting from any of their bonuses, they're also missing Bloodlines and Plate Barding Armor. I'd still say they're usable for situations where you'd want Hussars, just not for much, if anything, else. Regardless, combined with their Market bonus giving them some occasional extra pocket change and the Dutch shouls be pretty comfortable in Trash fights. I'd give their Trash an A-, which might seem low for being a Levy civ, but honstly, while their Halbs are, again, fantastic their Skirmishers are only a bit above average and their Hussars below average, and their Market bonus doesn't really give you THAT much extra gold over the long run. Don't get me wrong, they're still pretty good, just not absolute top tier.
An excellent analysis as always! This grade is particularly spot on and is absolutely what I was going for when designing the civilization.
34:43
Or just give the extra wood immediately.
Do a nordic civ like danes, swedes or norwegians? :)
Capital idea! I've thought about divvying up the Vikings before, and now seems as good a time as any.
Thanks for the suggestions my friend! How'd you like this build?
Hello. I'd just like to point out that Hainaut was historically always part of 'the Netherlands', but culturally and linguistically they are Francophone. They didn't even join the union of Utrecht, but the union of Arras. I just thought you'd like to know.
Hey, I appreciate the clarification Jorge! I actually had no idea about that, really cool piece of history. Did you see any other misses in my history section?
Thanks for commenting my friend!
@@robbylava I can't say if there were any more mistakes, because I don't know a lot about Dutch history myself. I'm Flemish, and unfortunately we don't seem to care a lot about Dutch and Belgian history.
I can say two more things though. "Begroeting" is not a way for Dutch speaking people to greet each other. Begroeting is a noun. It should be "gegroet".
Secondly, if the Dutch are ever added to aoe2, they should represent Flanders too. Throughout history Flanders was absolutely a core part of Dutch civilisation. Sadly though, because of unfortunate developments in history, Flanders is not a part of the Netherlands today. It sounded a little bit strange when you called the Battle of the Golden Spurs an important event in Dutch history. In a medieval context, Flanders was undeniably Dutch, but in a modern context the word 'Dutch' has a different political meaning that doesn't include Flanders, because borders don't follow ethnic, linguistic or cultural lines.
Thanks for clarifying the greeting I used! Do you know if the suggestion you gave there would have been used during the AOE 2 time frame as well?
I totally agree that I would include the Flemish in this grander Dutch civilization. That's part of the reason I removed Flemish revolution from the burgundians as part of this build (plus the fact that it sucks of course heheheh)
Another commenter asked me something about this build that I'd love to hear your take on -- do you think that multiple Dutch civilizations could be merited rather than just the single overarching one? From what I learned about Dutch history doing this video, the three I would probably pick would be the Frisians, Flemish, and Hollanders, but I'd be very interested to hear what you think about it since you seem to know a lot about Dutch history!
@@robbylava Dutch and Flemish people these days say "hallo" as a standard greeting, and this is what they use in aoe3, but this is actually anachronistic. "Gegroet" and "goedendag" (like the weapon) were definitely used in the Middle Ages. Today they sound formal, but I would guess they used to be perfectly neutral. There's also "dag", but I believe this is only a modern abbreviation of "goedendag".
I would not split the Dutch. If you do this, you might end up splitting Teutons and Italians in 100 civs too. I don't think the different regions of the Netherlands were that different. Every civ you could think of had regional variation, and just because some were politically divided, doesn't mean they weren't the same "civilisation". I suppose it depends on your interpretation of the term. But hey, this is your channel, do what you want. I'd like to mention however, that the "big 3" are generally considered to be Flanders, Brabant and Holland, in chronological order. Friesland might have been important in the early Middle Ages, but I have no idea honestly. I don't know a whole lot about Dutch history.
Excellent! I will be sure to make a note of that in my next recraft video, really appreciate you giving me some insider knowledge! My research skills are very often not up to the task heheheh
And duly noted about splitting the Dutch! It sounds like a project I might tackle down the line but certainly not while I have much juicier builds to work on. Since pretty much all I do on this channel is civilization builds I have no doubt I will end up splitting pretty much everything, just to see how far I can take it, and when I do, who knows? I might dive deeper into the Dutch!
Really appreciate you clarifying The Big Three, that'll be a great starting point for me if I choose to do so. I would definitely add the Frisians to that list, since from my research for this video I did learn that they were fairly impactful earlier on in the middle ages!
Thanks again for all the feedback Jorge.
Can you list some other RUclipsrs making theorycraft civs like yours? I can't seem to find any on RUclips
The best one I found is a guy named MantisAOE2. His builds are a lot more conventional than mine, probably a lot better if I'm honest! But even more interestingly, he actually has the skills to program his civilizations into the game, so he actually shows how they might look in practice! As you might expect, he only uploads once every couple months though.
Definitely check out his stuff! I only ever watch his videos after I take my own shot at one of the civilizations he covers, so maybe I'll see you in his comments in the future once I put out a few more videos.
@@robbylava Can confirm ! Mantis is an amazing source of inspiration for Theorytical Civs. Stumbled upon your video recently, and that's an interesting take on the theorycrafting, too ! Great work !
Thank you so much for saying so Ykario! Really hope you enjoy the builds.
I have some ideas for a monk civ if you're interested. Monastery can be built in the feudal age, but can only build monks in castle age; but can build a unit called a friar. The friar would cost 30 food and 20 gold, can't convert or pick up relics but can heal units, and also collect resources perhaps at a lower rate than normal villagers. That's it; secular monks that would work like ordinary people were very important in the middle ages but they're pretty much lacking from AoE2 which perhaps could be interesting to fix.
That's a fantastic idea Jack. The feudal age monastery is similar to my Georgians build, which I highly recommend if you haven't seen it yet!
I think balance wise the downside of this idea is it effectively allow you to get more than one town center before Castle age. Even if friars were worse at collecting than villagers, every little bit helps, and it could allow for an absolutely brutal boom. Nevertheless I absolutely love where you're going with this idea.
I have a video coming up in the not too distant future about how monks might be rebalanced. Would you mind if I threw this idea in there with credit to you?
Thanks a lot for the input Jack! I look forward to hearing from you more in future.
@@robbylava I'll definitely check it out :) it's such fun to see all these potential civs thought out by fans.
That's true, but I think it's fine if it comes at a cost, in this case if the units cost even a small amount of gold; similarly to how the Cuman 2d TC is slower to build and comes at the expense of a good castle age time. With tweaks here and there, it merely determines how a civilisation can be played differently than others, after all.
I wouldn't mind at all, it's great that you like this idea. Keep up the great content.
@@JackOpulski you make a good point about the comparison to cuman Town centers! And thank you so much for the kind words, I can't wait to hear what you think about other builds I put out in the future
Just I personal preference. I would prefer it dubbed as a Frisian civ. Dutch feel way out of line for the time period, and many of the smaller duchies within the HRE don't fell like a strong enough of a player here. The Frisian kingdom is thus the closest stand-in for a Dutch state in the region for me.
That's definitely a reasonable perspective Crossil -- a couple of other commenters have mentioned that as well. Do you think that the current bonuses I have listed here would fit well for a Frisian civilization, or do you think I would need to change some?
I've even had a couple of commenters say that I could probably split up this Dutch build into several civs, including the Frisians, Flemish, and Hollanders. What do you think of this, reckon there's enough material to merit several civilizations?
@@robbylava I mostly don't really get too much into gameplay specifics. I just roll with it, for the most part. RTS games aren't something I tend to latch realism onto as a basis of gameplay. What matters to me is mostly flavour, which in AoE2 comes from Wonders, architecture, unique units, and sometimes bonuses like the Condottiero being a mercenary.
So apologies but, I didn't really do a deep dive into bonuses and gameplay philosophy. I could, it's just not that much of an interest for me. I just like discussing what civilizations could be added and pray that the devs don''t screw up gameplay and game design too hard.
Aside from this, I guess I do like discussing which campaigns or historical battles would be nice to have.
For which civs to add here, there are many ways to cut civs. I just don't feel that compelled to go for ones that can be somewhat reasonably represented by a different civ that's in some form of lineage with the one already present. Matter of priorities, really. As far as Germanic peoples go, Swiss are such an obvious choice. And the Frisians, if we want a lowlands specific civ. Then there's the Saxons, who I only want because the Anglo-Saxons in the Hastings scenario should NOT be Goths, and then you can have the Saxons in both Britain and in German lands, should the scenarios call for it.
Totally reasonable man! I know that my personal preferences for high realism are far from universal. But flavor is very high on my list too! I especially love interesting and realistic voice lines, though beautiful architecture with cool regional skins is probably a close second for me at least.
Regardless, I hope you enjoyed the build man! Since you're mechanically focused I'm sure some of my stuff is much too wacky for your tastes, but if you found it interesting and fun to watch despite that then that's all I could ever hope for.
11:30 Bari is a terrible campaign. I hate it. They had the story of Belisarius and Justinian, or the whole Byzantine reconquest of Italy, but they had to go for the unknown city. They wasted one of the most loved civs in the game. But surely there's a fan-made campaign about it. Thank you as always for your incredible vids and the work you put in them.
Couldn't agree more. Thank you so much for the kind words!
So I was checking the civ doc and was a bit confused by Urban Militas. It does say that Burghers, Halberdiers and Skirmishers deal 20% more bonus damage, but it also says "min +1". What does it mean? Does it mean that they deal at least one more, so 2, damage against their bonus damage targets, or is it all targets? What does it mean?
Pardon me Erik, sorry that language isn't clear!
What it means is that the extra bonus damage is guaranteed to be at least plus one even if the 20% wouldn't normally bring it there. For example, elite skirmishers only have +3 bonus damage against spearmen, so this is specifying that they would still get 1 additional bonus damage even though 20% of 3 is substantially less than that.
Does that make sense?
@@robbylava I understand. I think then that it should say something like "(minimum +1 bonus damage), in brackets, or whatever you call that, rather than in commas, the latter of which kind of suggests to me that it's an additional effect of Urban Militias rather an "insurence", for lack of a better word, of the first effect. Kind of like how Britons' Yeomen is two effects in one tech.
Very good suggestion, I'll put that on my list to address in the next recraft. Thanks Erik!
play aoe3 :(
Awww don't be sad crusader! What makes you say so?
@@robbylava Oh I was just saying if you like the Dutch you should play AoE3 cuz I like that game but ik it's like the black sheep of AoE games lol
Oh heheh I see.
I have a lot of respect for aoe3. I think I might do a video about it at some point in the future -- in all honesty I think it does a much better job than aoe2 overall at being historically accurate.
And yet even so I never really got into it. To me it felt a lot like playing Warcraft 3, which is a game I adore, but it's just... clunkier (for want of a better word) than AOE2.
Absolutely nothing wrong with liking it though. What makes you drawn to the game, crusader?
@@robbylava Yeah I agree that AOE3 actually does a really good job of sticking to the historically accuracy of a lot of civilizations in many ways. (Except for the Germans lol) I also feel the same way that AOE3 is much more like Warcraft 3 or even more like Age of Mythology. But I grew up mostly playing Warcraft 3 more than AOE2 so that style of RTS is just much more comfortable to me to play. I also find historical 1500s-1800s to be a very unique time period for an RTS game + it is probably the most unique of all the Age of Empires games in my opinion. These types of videos you make are really awesome tho and inspire me to make similar ones for AOE3 haha
Im working towards a PHD in medieval history myself with a secondary focus in early modern Europe so this sort of stuff I love to see!
I also played tons of Warcraft 3 growing up! But while I love the game (especially the mods, I must have sunk a thousand hours into those alone) it never quite grabbed me the same way as AOE2 did. Probably unsurprising therefore that I never quite gravitated to aoe3 as much. I do like the era, but medieval times and antiquity have always appealed to me a little bit more than Renaissance onwards.
Also WOW dude that is so cool! The fact that you are so much more qualified than me to talk about history and still think my videos are cool is a massive compliment. Hey! If you ever like to talk with me about any of your builds, do a collaboration on my channel or yours, or even just want to have another set of eyes on anything you're working on, please do feel free to reach out to me! My email is viewable in the about tab of my channel if you're viewing on PC, and it would be an absolute pleasure to hear from you.
But regardless, I really appreciate you taking the time to comment man! Very much hope I get to hear from you more in the future!