If you're interested, the previous stroke series' videos are all listed in the doctor's notes here: nutritionfacts.org/video/do-vegetarians-really-have-higher-stroke-risk/
Vegetarian diets may lead to lower blood pressure, improved cholesterol levels, healthier weight, and less incidence of Type 2 Diabetes, all of which can reduce the risk of heart disease and stroke. However, they are more likely to have hip ( 50%!! greater risks) and vertebral fractures, and bone loss. You nutjobs (just kidding) just need to take calcium and magnesium and boron and IRON and B(12), D, fatty acids, zinc. So stop thinking your diet is so superior and take vitamins and minerals and fish oil.
Is there a video about any differences in recommendations between preventing strokes and people who have already been through one and are on medications because of that? Like, what should you avoid eating if you are on statins and blood thinners? Are there foods that counteract the medication?
@@oppothumbs1 Here is a nice vegetarian diet which could hurt their cardiovascular health from long term slim and fit Chinese vegetarians taking no medications with a BMI of 22 is provided here. 2005 article "Vascular Dysfunction in Chinese Vegetarians: An Apparent Paradox?" The CIMT shows the truth.
That's put forward like a tautology, but it really isn't one. Quite often I'm confronted with people who read articles or news headlines who live like the accumulation of knowledge isn't a thing, pretending like the information is novel. The reality is that you can't just disregard those former studies. There are multiple ways that you can make credible that the new study really is on point, but just saying it is so since it takes courage to ditch your past believes, is really just personal bias.
I'm not a scientist BUTT I've managed to not spend a night in the hospital since my diabetes diagnosis 25 years ago. Most people have good intentions I believe but there's a tendency to become emotionally attached to one's beliefs and not want to consider the possibility that what you believed at one time may have been wrong. And this isn't meant to be pro or anti vegan. I'm not vegan and my weight and numbers are "superb" according to my endocrinologist who I see every 3 months. Wishful thinking and confirmation bias can affect everyone.
Great to see the update here. It never quite added up to me as to why a healthier diet "might" result in a greater stroke risk... thankfully this appears to NOT be the case!
Thanks as always Dr. Greger! Your work is so important for at-risk people. Whenever I've had discussions with friends about their health I've always recommended your work.
Great news! Can I just say that I really prefer the Nutrition Facts add-free, voice over presentation style than other plugcast nutrition channels. As a long term NF followers, I tend to agree more with your stance than other plant based or nutrition channels. When you put your channel to the test, then your sense of humour never goes unappreciated. 🥰😇😉
Gotta love science and the willingness, no insistence, on testing and retesting the hypothesis until the data emerges. Thank you for the clarification.
Doc, I also VERY much appreciate (and commend you for) the quality of your narrations. You speak in complete sentences (Subject + Verb + Object) and do not lard up your narration with those ignorant and grating UH and UM sounds to which so many people today are addicted. You also speak with a spirited and enthusiastic voice. It is a pleasure to listen to your presentations ! Wish there were more like you, Sir !
Oh thank goodness!!!! My father ( a physician) died of a hemorhagic - oh heck I can't spell it - bleeding stroke on the brain. I went plant-based because of his death, my mother had a massive heart attack, and my 4 uncles all died of cancer. But that study a few years ago has nagged at me over and over again. Now it won't. I've also wondered, which this now seems to confirm, that if my dad had known how effective just eating plants could be, if he'd have changed his diet and would be with me still at the grand old age of 90...
@@kingorbit now there are many studies on b12 supplements, no benefit for risk popolation 😅 not even in small children. I remember b12 deficiency Is widespread in many developing country from birth and over 50 years old in the west and NEVER Is checked in every blood analysis laboratory in every country the world
@botzer8817 not very if caused by b12 deficiency "Meta-Analysis Vitamin B supplementation, homocysteine levels, and the risk of cerebrovascular disease: a meta-analysis We conducted detailed subgroup analyses for cyanocobalamin (vitamin B12) but did not find a significant benefit regarding intervention dose of vitamin B12 or baseline blood B12 concentration. " "Dietary intake of homocysteine metabolism-related B-vitamins and the risk of stroke: a dose-response meta-analysis of prospective studies A dose-response analysis revealed a linear inverse association between folate and vitamin B-6 intake and the risk of stroke, with a pooled RR of 0.94 (95% CI: 0.90-0.98) and 0.94 (95% CI: 0.89-0.99) for each 100 μg/d increment in folate intake and 0.5 mg/d increment in vitamin B-6 intake, respectively. In contrast, we found no significant association between dietary vitamin B-12 intake and the risk of stroke, with an RR of 1.01 (95% CI: 0.97-1.06) per 3 μg/d increase. In conclusion, our findings suggest that increased intake of vitamin B-6 and folate is associated with a reduced risk of stroke, supporting the notion that increasing habitual folate and vitamin B-6 intake may provide a small but beneficial effect with respect to stroke." "Association between B vitamins supplementation and risk of cardiovascular outcomes: a cumulative meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials Conclusion/Significance B vitamin supplementation, when used for primary or secondary prevention, is not associated with a reduction in MACE, total mortality, cardiac death, MI, or stroke." Here there Is study about vegetarians in taiwanese studies... "Vegetarian diet and incidence of total, ischemic, and hemorrhagic stroke in 2 cohorts in Taiwan Conclusion Taiwanese vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of ischemic and hemorrhagic strokes. Subgroup analysis by vitamin B12 intakes Our subgroup analysis by vitamin B12 intake is shown in table 5. Inverse association between vegetarian diet and lower overall stroke was found in the subgroup with inadequate vitamin B12 intake (
I wish more studies would make some attempt to distinguish vegans from vegetarians, and health conscious vegans from ethical vegans and others who might be subsisting on McDonald's french fries, Oreos, etc. "Vegetarian diet" is hopelessly vague. I feel like a bunch of people who have very different eating habits are being thrown together. Clearly there's nothing healthy about devouring Stouffer's Macaroni and Cheese and a chocolate shake (although they do taste good).
Yes we need more thorough delineation and essentially all the tests run again for people who eat whole plant foods so we can find our true normal / natural scores
This. I was a vegetarian for about 23 years and lived on a lot of cheese laden pasta, chocolate and plenty of icecream. I certainly wasn't under any false notion that it was a healthy diet and yet it would still be lumped in with WFPB in most of these studies.
@@AetherIdolI think that is probably the reason that there was no significant difference in the data between vegetarians and meat eaters. A lot is made about the French fry and Oreo diet being vegetarian, but people who are as unhealthy as that probably wouldn’t sign up for a health study about their diet. Many people who give up meat, increase fruit and veg consumption but many add extra cheese and processed vegan products to their diet at the same time. Being disciplined and increasing lentil, bean, whole grain and nut consumption takes more effort and time.
I resent the government of Canada pushing animal products, and lieing about how it was "healthy". Industries making money, has made me chronically ill....
Agreed, but things ARE slowly getting better. At least they no longer put meat and dairy down as the basis of all meals. In fact, they have finally admitted meat is purely optional.
Woot! We still appreciate all your work Doc & staff and we would much rather have best solution options offered up for any of these supposed challenges to thriving on plants than letting those rumors run amok with no response from sane sources 🥦❤
"Findings showing increased risk of hemorrhagic stoke among vegetarians were a fluke." Just as I suspected. Thank you, Dr. Greger, for following this story and bringing us the updated numbers.
Thank you for this immensely valuable research and information!! But I mean, really, it made absolutely no sense, right?... It had to be a fluke, but I'm very grateful to have this evidence here!
So, how do you arrive at a fluke at such a massive sample size? And why is there such wild variation vs, say, what the Taiwanese researchers have found out? Btw, I could swear that when the Oxford paper was posted originally (or was it a pre-publication? no longer even sure), they had a bunch of graphs with variables for different adjustments. And up to the very last adjustment, everything, including the risk of stroke, was lower for vegetarians / vegans. After the last bunch of adjustments, strokes all of a sudden jumped up for vegetarians and down for pescetarians. And I could swear that I saw total cholesterol in the last bunch of adjustments, which would explain this sudden reversal (you're comparing vegans and vegetarians with seriously bad genetics and eating habits to healthy pescatarians / omnivores). I even found my posts in a subreddit where people were discussing why the researches would want to do that in the first place. With that said, I don't see any such charts anymore in the final version of the study. Does anyone know whatever happened to all that?
12 days. My severe arthritis in my shoulder ( dislocated 12 times ) dissapeared, my energy levels increased, no more digestive problems, bp went from 180/110 to 150/90, etc etc .. I would have remained vegan just the arthritis pain to go away. Truly life changing, wish i knew sooner
And besides beyound all the wonderfull and important data you just feel so much better already After just 10 days of eating a healthy whole food plant based diet - your body g’ets lighter, filled with joy and good Energy - 🎵🍀🎶🍀🐸🙏
My experience with vegetarians is that they eat more eggs and cheese in place of meat. By the way, I've been plant based for about 4 years- was told then that my heart attack risk was quite high, blood pressure and cholesterol high. Now blood pressure is 104/64 with little exercise, heart attack risk very small.
I`m vegan since 15 years and I`m 46 years old. I read about this stroke risk. And on the end, man comes, if man has B-Vitamin deficit in B12, B6, Folid acid and has to high l-Carnitin and cholin mirror than and nothing Omega-3, that gets man stroke. But it is also by meat eater the fall. And by vegans are L-Carnitin and Cholin mirror very low. So that has lot of contradiction.
We don't know if a vegetarian eats massive amounts of cheese or eggs every day, even if they never eat meat. Wouldn't that make a difference? And if B12 could be an issue for vegans, can someone please tell me how often I should be taking a 1000 μg supplement? Every day seems excessive
Countries with high death rates from stroke such as Lesotho, Swaziland and Solomon Islands, also have the lowest meat and animal consumption rate, while countries with the lowest stroke death rates such as Finland, Iceland and Canada have higher cholesterol levels and higher meat consumption rate.
This comparison makes NO sense at all. The leading cause of death in Lesootho has nothing to do with food. "Low life expectancy in Lesotho is a result of high rates of HIV/AIDS and other infectious diseases, poverty, and poor access to healthcare."
@@JakeRichardsong I never said anything about life expectancy or leading cause of death. Lesotho is rank # 3 for stroke as being the specific cause of death and Canada is rank # 182 for stroke as being the cause of death out of 100,000.
So you think that these countries have higher death rates from strokes because they don’t eat meat? Or could it be that they’re extremely poor third world countries with very few natural resources, high levels of poverty and not even close to enough food to feed their growing populations. They also have extremely high rates of diseases, crime, and corruption. Most people have to walk for hours or sometimes a full day to reach a clinic. There is a SEVERE shortage of medical care there. You’re comparing countries where most of the population is malnourished, diseased/ sick, uneducated, impoverished and without health care to countries like Finland which is one of the happiest countries in the world where higher education is free, food insecurity is practically nonexistent, healthcare is free, most people are middle class, most people are housed, poverty is less than 1% It’s not a fair or unbiased comparison at all.
@@Audrey_1110 How does a person die from a stroke when you already admitted life expectancy is low from accidents or malnutrition and they are fit from so much walking which keeps them slim. You are changing the topic from life expectancy when the topic is about death from strokes. "By contrast, vegetarians had 20% higher rates of total stroke (hazard ratio 1.20, 95% confidence interval 1.02 to 1.40) than meat eaters, equivalent to three more cases of total stroke (95% confidence interval 0.8 to 5.4 more) per 1000 population over 10 years, mostly due to a higher rate of haemorrhagic stroke. The associations for stroke did not attenuate after further adjustment of disease risk factors. 2019 BMJ The EPIC-Oxford study." Please explain how these slim and fit, non smoking long term Chinese vegetarians with low total cholesterol levels taking no medications with a BMI of 22 hurt their cardiovascular health. 2005 article "Vascular Dysfunction in Chinese Vegetarians: An Apparent Paradox?"
I am a wfpb eater with no oil and very minimum salt plus no refined sugars. For 2 years. Before I was a vegetarian and vegan for 48 years. July of 2023 I had a genetic brain bleed stroke with after a month having seizures . I'm now on medication for that. My heart rate , blood pressure and blood oxygen were all great. It was shocking for me to have a stroke but sometimes we can't get past genetics. BTW I'm a 68 year old woman.
I am so sorry you have had to go through all this despite having made so much effort to be healthier. I just wanted to mention that my health issues have improved greatly since my trying to adopt as many raw plants as possible, along the lines of Hippocrates Wellness or Brenda Davis recommendations. I've never been to the Hippocrates Institute because of the cost, etc. but I think there may be something to the "living foods" theory. I don't agree with their using oil, because it is a processed food and I think research has shown that oils are not good for endothelial health, but other than that I think better health outcomes could be possible following raw, vegan if you have the time to invest. By the way, I haven't started doing the sprouting, green juicing, and other methods they use at Hippocrates Institute, just because I'm busy with other things. But I hope to try out many of these other methods in the near future.
Also, I don't believe in juicing, although I guess one would always need to juice grass. Otherwise, I think smoothies are the way to go, as Dr. Greger recommends. By the way, if you are interested in raw, vegan channels, I think Gillian Berry's appears to have made remarkable health improvements. Also, "Eva-loves" You tube channel and website seems like another good source. Actually I think if I could I would try out True North Diet and Fasting Center. Hope this helps anyone who is trying to add more raw whole food to their diet. It has made a huge difference in my life because I used to suffer from very frequent migraines and other related health issues. I look VERY much like my mother, and she suffered from severe migraines until she went into menopause at which point her cardiovascular issues started: heart attacks, angioplasty, bi-pass operation, dementia, etc. She lived to be 88 but was on many meds, etc. She was never overweight and ate fairly healthily but of course not WFPB as I believe would have solved her health difficulties. Thankfully she only had mild dementia when she had her last stroke. For exercise I try to run a mile every day, do a 20 minute kettlebell routine 2 or 3 times a week and walk one mile every other day wearing a 20 pound vest. In these ways I have been able to get rid of my migraines pretty much completely. Oh, yes, I also eat a clove of garlic a day, especially if I feel a migraine coming on. I grate 1 clove of garlic, wait 10 minutes and then eat a little at a time mixed with some crushed canned tomato, or spread on a fresh tomato. This works wonders for me.I know Dr. Greger has a video about using dried ginger to combat migraines, and this work somewhat for me but garlic is more effective.
The reason I decided to go raw vegan is because one of the plant doctors, I believe it is Dr. Esselstyn, spoke about how eating mostly fresh greens will make veins and arteries and all tissue more elastic, so I'm hoping it will keep my cardio-vascular system more supple.
I guess my question now is I increased my b12 significantly 1000 mcgs a day after I had a TIA 3 years ago. I have been a vegetarian for 35 years and a vegan for 5. I am 69 years old. I had cholesterol of 232. All else was perfect . Put on a statin and baby aspirin daily. Cholesterol dropped. Should I keep with the 1000 mcg of b12?
would be nice if there was enough vegan to study/compare them to vegetarians and pescetarian. obviously mechanisticaly whole plant are better than animal products like fish etc but seeing to what degree epidemiologicaly, in finer details would be nice.
Well since fish flesh is high in saturated fats, just like red meat, etc, the results would be the same. Those who consume lots of seafood will have high cholesterol levels, putting them at high risk for CVD. This is why the Inuit people only had a moderate life expectancy to around their mid to late 40's, because most of them would die from heart disease due to their high cholesterol. The 'only' diet which is high in nutrition, but very low in harmful fats, proteins, & toxins, is a Whole Foods Plant Based diet.👍🏼
Hmm, fluke? But all this just points to other studies and bigger reviews. The actual question seems to remain: in EPIC, by exception vs the usual studies, all groups had similar healthy 22-23 BMI. Why more veg strokes with plants only when the usual support by weight loss disappears. There still must be something else ... No?
You didn't understand. Greg wants to say that b12 deficiency Is NOT a risk stroke factor! And in taiwanese studies only vegetarians that did NOT take supplements and had zero or little animal products and had so a b12 deficiency had much less stroke than omnivorous (and much less other diseases and aslo less neurologic diseases) It's no less 50% stroke but less 70% in truth! While in Oxford studies many vegans were underweight and being underweight can be a giant risk factor for hemorrhagic stroke other that fractures, neurologic and cardiovascolar diseases, cancers and general mortality
I cannot believe how irritating this fast-paced, quippy and clever narration was. I say we could receive the information you offer a lot better if you weren't trying so hard to be cool and just be who you are instead.
I ate mostly vegetarian, few processed foods, few grains, and a little meat for 40 years. In 2021 I developed joint pain, bone pain, muscle pain, exhaustion, skin breakouts, and heightened anxiety. My doctor tested me for everything including arthritis, autoimmune, and parasites. All tests negative but I did have calcium oxalate in my urine. No kidney stones. Mmmmm. Read Sally K Norton, got on a low oxalate meat based diet. After a short time my joint bone and muscle pain disappeared. I started swimming and going to the gym again. I feel so much better. My lipids dropped from 90 to 50. My ldLDL dropped from 15 to 3. Fasting insulin from 5.5 to 5.3. That’s after two transitioning months, and two solid months on a carnivore diet. I wish I had known about plant defense chemicals when I was eating so many plants. I ate way too much spinach and cacao and I really regret it. I am continuing to release oxalates, but I still feel so much better. I never thought that I would say that I am a carnivore, but I am.
Hmm if oxalates were the problem why was there any need to start stuffing your face with cruelty and saturated fat and cholesterol laden flesh? Makes zero sense. Watch DOMINION please. You can reduce oxalate intake WITHOUT BECOMING A BLOODY ANIMAL TORTURER
Makes no sense. There are plenty of plants that are not high in oxalates and they can be reduced easily, by cooking or steaming for example. Red meat consumption is associated with greater cancer risk.
@@JakeRichardsong I know! It makes no sense to me either because I have believed for decades that vegetables are the best. But there is a wide array of plant defense chemicals, not just oxalates. I wish I had known! I feel better. My labs are the best they have EVER been. It's amazing.
I would have to say that supplements would need to be factored into this. Going on vegetarian diet and starting to be "healthy" may involve taking supplements. Not a vegetarian, but I watch my meat intake. I had to spend about 300+ bucks on a doctor visit and blood work because I would bleed like crazy if cut. They found nothing. Later on, it hit me that I was taking a bit too much turmeric. Cut it down to more reasonable amount. Problem solved.
"Plant-based" is ambiguous terminology. If one is referring to a diet that includes only food from plants, the terminology should be "plants-only" diet. Please lead the charge on removing this ambiguity.
vegan healthy long term vegans should have right bacteria in their small intestinte to produce their own b12 in the presence of enough cobalt in the diet. There have been reported anedotical cases (iran, india, people with overgrowth bacteria). Donald watson was vegan during decades even before b12 supplements exist. I have known long term vegans with no signs of deficiency (from nervous system or blood levels). Obviously, taken a supplement is the most reliable source for all people, vegan or not.
No, being vegan is still far healthier than being vegetarian, but being Whole Foods Plant Based is even healthier still than just being vegan, and being WFPB is what Dr Greger always promotes.
You seem to conflate vegetarian and vegan and that just confuses the issue more. Many vegetarians eat so much dairy and eggs that their diet is worse then the average omni. Many vegans eat so much meat subs that their diet is not as good as the best omni diets. Every group eats to much confectionery.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
If you're interested, the previous stroke series' videos are all listed in the doctor's notes here: nutritionfacts.org/video/do-vegetarians-really-have-higher-stroke-risk/
Vegetarian diets may lead to lower blood pressure, improved cholesterol levels, healthier weight, and less incidence of Type 2 Diabetes, all of which can reduce the risk of heart disease and stroke. However, they are more likely to have hip ( 50%!! greater risks) and vertebral fractures, and bone loss. You nutjobs (just kidding) just need to take calcium and magnesium and boron and IRON and B(12), D, fatty acids, zinc. So stop thinking your diet is so superior and take vitamins and minerals and fish oil.
Is there a video about any differences in recommendations between preventing strokes and people who have already been through one and are on medications because of that? Like, what should you avoid eating if you are on statins and blood thinners? Are there foods that counteract the medication?
@@oppothumbs1 Here is a nice vegetarian diet which could hurt their cardiovascular health from long term slim and fit Chinese vegetarians taking no medications with a BMI of 22 is provided here. 2005 article "Vascular Dysfunction in Chinese Vegetarians: An Apparent Paradox?" The CIMT shows the truth.
A scientist who corrects past claims is much more credible than one who sticks to past claims.
not only docters who do this but people in general!
That's put forward like a tautology, but it really isn't one. Quite often I'm confronted with people who read articles or news headlines who live like the accumulation of knowledge isn't a thing, pretending like the information is novel. The reality is that you can't just disregard those former studies. There are multiple ways that you can make credible that the new study really is on point, but just saying it is so since it takes courage to ditch your past believes, is really just personal bias.
Oh, and what you see in the comments, is confirmation bias
I'm not a scientist BUTT I've managed to not spend a night in the hospital since my diabetes diagnosis 25 years ago. Most people have good intentions I believe but there's a tendency to become emotionally attached to one's beliefs and not want to consider the possibility that what you believed at one time may have been wrong. And this isn't meant to be pro or anti vegan. I'm not vegan and my weight and numbers are "superb" according to my endocrinologist who I see every 3 months. Wishful thinking and confirmation bias can affect everyone.
@@Woppettier You didnt watch the video correctly, see at 4:10
Great to see the update here. It never quite added up to me as to why a healthier diet "might" result in a greater stroke risk... thankfully this appears to NOT be the case!
Thanks as always Dr. Greger! Your work is so important for at-risk people. Whenever I've had discussions with friends about their health I've always recommended your work.
Great news! Can I just say that I really prefer the Nutrition Facts add-free, voice over presentation style than other plugcast nutrition channels. As a long term NF followers, I tend to agree more with your stance than other plant based or nutrition channels. When you put your channel to the test, then your sense of humour never goes unappreciated. 🥰😇😉
Ha! I see what you did there.
Gotta love science and the willingness, no insistence, on testing and retesting the hypothesis until the data emerges. Thank you for the clarification.
Doc, I also VERY much appreciate (and commend you for) the quality of your narrations. You speak in complete sentences (Subject + Verb + Object) and do not lard up your narration with those ignorant and grating UH and UM sounds to which so many people today are addicted. You also speak with a spirited and enthusiastic voice. It is a pleasure to listen to your presentations ! Wish there were more like you, Sir !
Oh thank goodness!!!! My father ( a physician) died of a hemorhagic - oh heck I can't spell it - bleeding stroke on the brain. I went plant-based because of his death, my mother had a massive heart attack, and my 4 uncles all died of cancer. But that study a few years ago has nagged at me over and over again. Now it won't. I've also wondered, which this now seems to confirm, that if my dad had known how effective just eating plants could be, if he'd have changed his diet and would be with me still at the grand old age of 90...
Good to hear because I turned plantbased after having a stroke, so feel relief to hear it is not being a risk faktor for another one in itself.
he has other videos on the subject. He says you must take B12
@@kingorbit now there are many studies on b12 supplements, no benefit for risk popolation 😅 not even in small children.
I remember b12 deficiency Is widespread in many developing country from birth and over 50 years old in the west and NEVER Is checked in every blood analysis laboratory in every country the world
@@cicciomattese What studies? Every new studies I saw show a reduced risk of stroke for deficient people taking b12
@botzer8817 not very if caused by b12 deficiency
"Meta-Analysis
Vitamin B supplementation, homocysteine levels, and the risk of cerebrovascular disease: a meta-analysis
We conducted detailed subgroup analyses for cyanocobalamin (vitamin B12) but did not find a significant benefit regarding intervention dose of vitamin B12 or baseline blood B12 concentration. "
"Dietary intake of homocysteine metabolism-related B-vitamins and the risk of stroke: a dose-response meta-analysis of prospective studies
A dose-response analysis revealed a linear inverse association between folate and vitamin B-6 intake and the risk of stroke, with a pooled RR of 0.94 (95% CI: 0.90-0.98) and 0.94 (95% CI: 0.89-0.99) for each 100 μg/d increment in folate intake and 0.5 mg/d increment in vitamin B-6 intake, respectively. In contrast, we found no significant association between dietary vitamin B-12 intake and the risk of stroke, with an RR of 1.01 (95% CI: 0.97-1.06) per 3 μg/d increase. In conclusion, our findings suggest that increased intake of vitamin B-6 and folate is associated with a reduced risk of stroke, supporting the notion that increasing habitual folate and vitamin B-6 intake may provide a small but beneficial effect with respect to stroke."
"Association between B vitamins supplementation and risk of cardiovascular outcomes: a cumulative meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials
Conclusion/Significance
B vitamin supplementation, when used for primary or secondary prevention, is not associated with a reduction in MACE, total mortality, cardiac death, MI, or stroke."
Here there Is study about vegetarians in taiwanese studies...
"Vegetarian diet and incidence of total, ischemic, and hemorrhagic stroke in 2 cohorts in Taiwan
Conclusion Taiwanese vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of ischemic and hemorrhagic strokes.
Subgroup analysis by vitamin B12 intakes
Our subgroup analysis by vitamin B12 intake is shown in table 5. Inverse association between vegetarian diet and lower overall stroke was found in the subgroup with inadequate vitamin B12 intake (
@@kingorbit I do. :) And my b12 levels are good.
I wish more studies would make some attempt to distinguish vegans from vegetarians, and health conscious vegans from ethical vegans and others who might be subsisting on McDonald's french fries, Oreos, etc.
"Vegetarian diet" is hopelessly vague. I feel like a bunch of people who have very different eating habits are being thrown together. Clearly there's nothing healthy about devouring Stouffer's Macaroni and Cheese and a chocolate shake (although they do taste good).
Yes we need more thorough delineation and essentially all the tests run again for people who eat whole plant foods so we can find our true normal / natural scores
This. I was a vegetarian for about 23 years and lived on a lot of cheese laden pasta, chocolate and plenty of icecream. I certainly wasn't under any false notion that it was a healthy diet and yet it would still be lumped in with WFPB in most of these studies.
@@AetherIdolI think that is probably the reason that there was no significant difference in the data between vegetarians and meat eaters. A lot is made about the French fry and Oreo diet being vegetarian, but people who are as unhealthy as that probably wouldn’t sign up for a health study about their diet. Many people who give up meat, increase fruit and veg consumption but many add extra cheese and processed vegan products to their diet at the same time. Being disciplined and increasing lentil, bean, whole grain and nut consumption takes more effort and time.
I resent the government of Canada pushing animal products, and lieing about how it was "healthy". Industries making money, has made me chronically ill....
Agreed, but things ARE slowly getting better. At least they no longer put meat and dairy down as the basis of all meals. In fact, they have finally admitted meat is purely optional.
Seems like going plant based is the smartest thing I have ever done and unlike anything anybody I know has done second to taking up cycling.
Woot! We still appreciate all your work Doc & staff and we would much rather have best solution options offered up for any of these supposed challenges to thriving on plants than letting those rumors run amok with no response from sane sources 🥦❤
Thanks for this data-driven information.
"Findings showing increased risk of hemorrhagic stoke among vegetarians were a fluke." Just as I suspected. Thank you, Dr. Greger, for following this story and bringing us the updated numbers.
Best News of the day. Awesome, thanks🙏
Thank you for this immensely valuable research and information!! But I mean, really, it made absolutely no sense, right?... It had to be a fluke, but I'm very grateful to have this evidence here!
So nice to get this update :D thank you so much
I remember all the antivegan channels at the time were going on and on about it, yet ignoring all the risk factors for nonvegans. 🙃
I really wish I didn't watch them..
So, how do you arrive at a fluke at such a massive sample size? And why is there such wild variation vs, say, what the Taiwanese researchers have found out? Btw, I could swear that when the Oxford paper was posted originally (or was it a pre-publication? no longer even sure), they had a bunch of graphs with variables for different adjustments. And up to the very last adjustment, everything, including the risk of stroke, was lower for vegetarians / vegans. After the last bunch of adjustments, strokes all of a sudden jumped up for vegetarians and down for pescetarians. And I could swear that I saw total cholesterol in the last bunch of adjustments, which would explain this sudden reversal (you're comparing vegans and vegetarians with seriously bad genetics and eating habits to healthy pescatarians / omnivores). I even found my posts in a subreddit where people were discussing why the researches would want to do that in the first place. With that said, I don't see any such charts anymore in the final version of the study. Does anyone know whatever happened to all that?
12 days. My severe arthritis in my shoulder ( dislocated 12 times ) dissapeared, my energy levels increased, no more digestive problems, bp went from 180/110 to 150/90, etc etc .. I would have remained vegan just the arthritis pain to go away. Truly life changing, wish i knew sooner
Well, that pretty much puts that to bed, doesn't it? Sleep well my fellow plant based whole food dieters!
And besides beyound all the wonderfull and important data you just feel so much better already After just 10 days of eating a healthy whole food plant based diet - your body g’ets lighter, filled with joy and good Energy - 🎵🍀🎶🍀🐸🙏
"Vegetarian" isn't necessarily synonymous with "whole foods, plant-based". What about vegans?
Would love to know the incredibly low chances of the study results being a fluke. I find it hard to believe that there isn't more to the story.
Thanks for highlight that study from RLMG!
Wow. Such a nice voice and fluent
How about vegan vs vegetarian?
My experience with vegetarians is that they eat more eggs and cheese in place of meat. By the way, I've been plant based for about 4 years- was told then that my heart attack risk was quite high, blood pressure and cholesterol high. Now blood pressure is 104/64 with little exercise, heart attack risk very small.
last time you spoke about the anti-biased systems applied to the previous study. Did this study used that technique too?
I`m vegan since 15 years and I`m 46 years old. I read about this stroke risk. And on the end, man comes, if man has B-Vitamin deficit in B12, B6, Folid acid and has to high l-Carnitin and cholin mirror than and nothing Omega-3, that gets man stroke. But it is also by meat eater the fall. And by vegans are L-Carnitin and Cholin mirror very low. So that has lot of contradiction.
We don't know if a vegetarian eats massive amounts of cheese or eggs every day, even if they never eat meat. Wouldn't that make a difference?
And if B12 could be an issue for vegans, can someone please tell me how often I should be taking a 1000 μg supplement? Every day seems excessive
Twice or thrice per week is enough. Personally, I take 500 mcg three times per week (1500 mcg per week in total).
So what does the overall balance of evidence say when combining all studies together?
So where does this leave your recommendations to supplement Vitamin B12?
Thats what i wondor
Would be interesting to understand the mistake in methodology taht led to those conclusions
Countries with high death rates from stroke such as Lesotho, Swaziland and Solomon Islands, also have the lowest meat and animal consumption rate, while countries with the lowest stroke death rates such as Finland, Iceland and Canada have higher cholesterol levels and higher meat consumption rate.
This comparison makes NO sense at all. The leading cause of death in Lesootho has nothing to do with food. "Low life expectancy in Lesotho is a result of high rates of HIV/AIDS and other infectious diseases, poverty, and poor access to healthcare."
@@JakeRichardsong I never said anything about life expectancy or leading cause of death. Lesotho is rank # 3 for stroke as being the specific cause of death and Canada is rank # 182 for stroke as being the cause of death out of 100,000.
So you think that these countries have higher death rates from strokes because they don’t eat meat?
Or could it be that they’re extremely poor third world countries with very few natural resources, high levels of poverty and not even close to enough food to feed their growing populations. They also have extremely high rates of diseases, crime, and corruption. Most people have to walk for hours or sometimes a full day to reach a clinic. There is a SEVERE shortage of medical care there.
You’re comparing countries where most of the population is malnourished, diseased/ sick, uneducated, impoverished and without health care to countries like Finland which is one of the happiest countries in the world where higher education is free, food insecurity is practically nonexistent, healthcare is free, most people are middle class, most people are housed, poverty is less than 1%
It’s not a fair or unbiased comparison at all.
@@Audrey_1110 How does a person die from a stroke when you already admitted life expectancy is low from accidents or malnutrition and they are fit from so much walking which keeps them slim. You are changing the topic from life expectancy when the topic is about death from strokes. "By contrast, vegetarians had 20% higher rates of total stroke (hazard ratio 1.20, 95% confidence interval 1.02 to 1.40) than meat eaters, equivalent to three more cases of total stroke (95% confidence interval 0.8 to 5.4 more) per 1000 population over 10 years, mostly due to a higher rate of haemorrhagic stroke. The associations for stroke did not attenuate after further adjustment of disease risk factors. 2019 BMJ The EPIC-Oxford study." Please explain how these slim and fit, non smoking long term Chinese vegetarians with low total cholesterol levels taking no medications with a BMI of 22 hurt their cardiovascular health. 2005 article "Vascular Dysfunction in Chinese Vegetarians: An Apparent Paradox?"
@@Jeffs60 Stroke is the #3 cause of death in Canada.
Great video…thanks
I am a wfpb eater with no oil and very minimum salt plus no refined sugars. For 2 years. Before I was a vegetarian and vegan for 48 years. July of 2023 I had a genetic brain bleed stroke with after a month having seizures . I'm now on medication for that. My heart rate , blood pressure and blood oxygen were all great. It was shocking for me to have a stroke but sometimes we can't get past genetics. BTW I'm a 68 year old woman.
@@stargazer5610I can see why you were shocked. What kind of stroke did you have?
I am so sorry you have had to go through all this despite having made so much effort to be healthier. I just wanted to mention that my health issues have improved greatly since my trying to adopt as many raw plants as possible, along the lines of Hippocrates Wellness or Brenda Davis recommendations. I've never been to the Hippocrates Institute because of the cost, etc. but I think there may be something to the "living foods" theory. I don't agree with their using oil, because it is a processed food and I think research has shown that oils are not good for endothelial health, but other than that I think better health outcomes could be possible following raw, vegan if you have the time to invest. By the way, I haven't started doing the sprouting, green juicing, and other methods they use at Hippocrates Institute, just because I'm busy with other things. But I hope to try out many of these other methods in the near future.
Also, I don't believe in juicing, although I guess one would always need to juice grass. Otherwise, I think smoothies are the way to go, as Dr. Greger recommends. By the way, if you are interested in raw, vegan channels, I think Gillian Berry's appears to have made remarkable health improvements. Also, "Eva-loves" You tube channel and website seems like another good source. Actually I think if I could I would try out True North Diet and Fasting Center. Hope this helps anyone who is trying to add more raw whole food to their diet. It has made a huge difference in my life because I used to suffer from very frequent migraines and other related health issues. I look VERY much like my mother, and she suffered from severe migraines until she went into menopause at which point her cardiovascular issues started: heart attacks, angioplasty, bi-pass operation, dementia, etc. She lived to be 88 but was on many meds, etc. She was never overweight and ate fairly healthily but of course not WFPB as I believe would have solved her health difficulties. Thankfully she only had mild dementia when she had her last stroke. For exercise I try to run a mile every day, do a 20 minute kettlebell routine 2 or 3 times a week and walk one mile every other day wearing a 20 pound vest. In these ways I have been able to get rid of my migraines pretty much completely. Oh, yes, I also eat a clove of garlic a day, especially if I feel a migraine coming on. I grate 1 clove of garlic, wait 10 minutes and then eat a little at a time mixed with some crushed canned tomato, or spread on a fresh tomato. This works wonders for me.I know Dr. Greger has a video about using dried ginger to combat migraines, and this work somewhat for me but garlic is more effective.
I learned about "Eva-loves" RUclipsr from Chef AJ show: How Eva Avoided a Hysterectomy and Healed Here With a Raw Food Lifestyle.
The reason I decided to go raw vegan is because one of the plant doctors, I believe it is Dr. Esselstyn, spoke about how eating mostly fresh greens will make veins and arteries and all tissue more elastic, so I'm hoping it will keep my cardio-vascular system more supple.
I guess my question now is I increased my b12 significantly 1000 mcgs a day after I had a TIA 3 years ago. I have been a vegetarian for 35 years and a vegan for 5. I am 69 years old. I had cholesterol of 232. All else was perfect . Put on a statin and baby aspirin daily. Cholesterol dropped. Should I keep with the 1000 mcg of b12?
According Dr. Greger, Yes.
As soon as I heard B12 I paused the video and went for the B12 bottle... :))
Me, too.
would be nice if there was enough vegan to study/compare them to vegetarians and pescetarian.
obviously mechanisticaly whole plant are better than animal products like fish etc but seeing to what degree epidemiologicaly, in finer details would be nice.
Well since fish flesh is high in saturated fats, just like red meat, etc, the results would be the same.
Those who consume lots of seafood will have high cholesterol levels, putting them at high risk for CVD.
This is why the Inuit people only had a moderate life expectancy to around their mid to late 40's, because most of them would die from heart disease due to their high cholesterol.
The 'only' diet which is high in nutrition, but very low in harmful fats, proteins, & toxins, is a Whole Foods Plant Based diet.👍🏼
@@IceBoNeZ The longest-lived Seventh-day Adventists are pesco-vegetarians. Pesco-vegetarians also eat eggs.
@@tgferg67 And.....?
@@IceBoNeZ They lived longer than vegans.
@@tgferg67 Wrong, they lived longer than non vegans & non vegetarians.
Get your facts right, fool.
Hmm, fluke? But all this just points to other studies and bigger reviews. The actual question seems to remain: in EPIC, by exception vs the usual studies, all groups had similar healthy 22-23 BMI. Why more veg strokes with plants only when the usual support by weight loss disappears. There still must be something else ... No?
So what do we do about abnormally high levels of homocysteine in vegans? They're just inocuous?
Could you support Korean subtitle? The hardest people in the world to learn English are Korean speakers.
👍 Whole food plant based for the environment and health; vegan for the victims!
What a wonderful update! These results seem to be because everybody supplement with B12 now
You didn't understand.
Greg wants to say that b12 deficiency Is NOT a risk stroke factor! And in taiwanese studies only vegetarians that did NOT take supplements and had zero or little animal products and had so a b12 deficiency had much less stroke than omnivorous (and much less other diseases and aslo less neurologic diseases)
It's no less 50% stroke but less 70% in truth!
While in Oxford studies many vegans were underweight and being underweight can be a giant risk factor for hemorrhagic stroke other that fractures, neurologic and cardiovascolar diseases, cancers and general mortality
I cannot believe how irritating this fast-paced, quippy and clever narration was. I say we could receive the information you offer a lot better if you weren't trying so hard to be cool and just be who you are instead.
Agreed.
OK, this is encouraging, but what is worrying is that you found an explanation (B12) for a false result. You should have found no explanation.
Bryson, the excedrin will stop the migraine but can increase their chance of recurring
I ate mostly vegetarian, few processed foods, few grains, and a little meat for 40 years. In 2021 I developed joint pain, bone pain, muscle pain, exhaustion, skin breakouts, and heightened anxiety. My doctor tested me for everything including arthritis, autoimmune, and parasites. All tests negative but I did have calcium oxalate in my urine. No kidney stones. Mmmmm.
Read Sally K Norton, got on a low oxalate meat based diet.
After a short time my joint bone and muscle pain disappeared. I started swimming and going to the gym again.
I feel so much better.
My lipids dropped from 90 to 50. My ldLDL dropped from 15 to 3. Fasting insulin from 5.5 to 5.3.
That’s after two transitioning months, and two solid months on a carnivore diet. I wish I had known about plant defense chemicals when I was eating so many plants. I ate way too much spinach and cacao and I really regret it. I am continuing to release oxalates, but I still feel so much better. I never thought that I would say that I am a carnivore, but I am.
Hmm if oxalates were the problem why was there any need to start stuffing your face with cruelty and saturated fat and cholesterol laden flesh? Makes zero sense. Watch DOMINION please. You can reduce oxalate intake WITHOUT BECOMING A BLOODY ANIMAL TORTURER
Makes no sense. There are plenty of plants that are not high in oxalates and they can be reduced easily, by cooking or steaming for example. Red meat consumption is associated with greater cancer risk.
@@JakeRichardsong I know! It makes no sense to me either because I have believed for decades that vegetables are the best. But there is a wide array of plant defense chemicals, not just oxalates. I wish I had known! I feel better. My labs are the best they have EVER been. It's amazing.
You're not a carnivore though, just delusional!
@@eilisniaisi5954 I don't understand what your point is.
best of best Dr
Good news. But never forget to take vitamin B12 regularly.
Good to know, but I'll keep taking my B12 just to be safe.
B12 is known to be needed for other heart related reasons
A good idea.
Decades of suffering to gain 4 years? No thanks!
I would have to say that supplements would need to be factored into this. Going on vegetarian diet and starting to be "healthy" may involve taking supplements. Not a vegetarian, but I watch my meat intake. I had to spend about 300+ bucks on a doctor visit and blood work because I would bleed like crazy if cut. They found nothing. Later on, it hit me that I was taking a bit too much turmeric. Cut it down to more reasonable amount. Problem solved.
Great
"Plant-based" is ambiguous terminology. If one is referring to a diet that includes only food from plants, the terminology should be "plants-only" diet. Please lead the charge on removing this ambiguity.
vegan healthy long term vegans should have right bacteria in their small intestinte to produce their own b12 in the presence of enough cobalt in the diet. There have been reported anedotical cases (iran, india, people with overgrowth bacteria). Donald watson was vegan during decades even before b12 supplements exist. I have known long term vegans with no signs of deficiency (from nervous system or blood levels). Obviously, taken a supplement is the most reliable source for all people, vegan or not.
Exactly healthy plant based diet
It's not what you don't eat but what you do
How many had the jab
@dr.Ken Berry
So vegans should turn vegetarian to reduce stroke risk?
No, being vegan is still far healthier than being vegetarian, but being Whole Foods Plant Based is even healthier still than just being vegan, and being WFPB is what Dr Greger always promotes.
No, be a vegan and take vitamin B12 regularly.
I wonder if anyone "followed the money" on that fluke Epic-Oxford study.........
Vegetarian eat dairy. Mozzarella is a great source of b12. No mention of vegan stroke problems.
Exactly!
0.6 micrograms per 100 grams... How is mozzarella a great source of B12?
So.. Fish eaters did even better than vegans on that study? don't let the vegan people know about that..
No , they just eat more veggies x)
Yes, with vitamin B12 supplement.
@@ponnamy for sure 👐
I delivered many 🥓🍖🍖🥓 meat lovers pizzas to this guy during the quarantine.
Ok this is epic
Interesting post but articulation and delivery are garbled , rushed and poorly presented.
I'd rather lose four useless years of my life than look like an orangutan.
👍🏻
You seem to conflate vegetarian and vegan and that just confuses the issue more. Many vegetarians eat so much dairy and eggs that their diet is worse then the average omni. Many vegans eat so much meat subs that their diet is not as good as the best omni diets. Every group eats to much confectionery.