,Yest was written down. For anyone interested in a deep-dive: Jakob Jakobsen, 'An etymological dictionary of the Norn language in Shetland'( 2 volumes.). Printed by S. L. Møller, Copenhagen. Originally published in Danish as 'Etymologisk ordbog over det norröne sprog på Shetland.' Reprinted Lerwick: The Shetland Folk Society, 1985. (1st ed.). Shaftesbury Avenue, London: David Nutt (A. G. Berry).
This must be the lingua franca of immigrant and native traders in central Canada. Would anyone have used vocabulary from all those languages, including Norn?
When I visited Shetland we spoke to a few old crofters and their dialect was so thick it sounded like Icelandic. With younger generations it sounds a lot more Scottish, but the shetlanders still use plenty of vocabulary derived from old Norse.
Someone told me that Norn was mutually intelligible with Faroese. I'm surprised there isn't a move to reinstate it to Orkney and Shetland just like they're doing with Manx in the Isle of Man.
I’m from England I was lost when u referred to a place called “Mann”. Eventually I figured it out lol. It’s never ever been heard by my ears as anything other than “The Isle of Man” or in my accent “ ire la man”(sic) 😂
Just for context the language was of course not called old Norse at he time (1000ad) but Norrǫna, which in the following 450 years in isolation on the Orkney and Shetland islands dropped the ǫ and a and just because Norn which incidentally also was the name of the three fates from Nordic mythology: Urðr, Verðandi & Skuld or Past, Present and Future roughly translated
As far as I know, the fine, bardic language, whenever given a name in the old Icelandic literature, is called dönsk tunga - "Danish tongue". Few subjects have undergone so much twisting and bias by modern nationalism as Nordic language history. In the late 19th century 80% of the population of Norway spoke Bokmål, an East Nordic language.
Be nice to drop the 'Viking' thing, when these were probably mostly just farmer migrant types, sheep farmers and likely had been sailing back and forth for many hundreds of years. Faroese and Norn are similar. Faroes or 'Foroya' means 'Sheep Islands'. Even 'Viking' means something like: Farm settlers. Norn was also two dialects, the Orkney and the Shetland. Shetland was more pure Norse but Orkney was influence by Old English style - but they people were also mixed with Gaelic people also. Like in the Faroes, people have a high amount of Gaelic ancestry. same as parts of western Norway, a large amount of Gaelic. The entire east of Scotland is 'Norse' and north east England. South east England, more connected to what is now the Netherlands / Friesland / west Germany.
1100-1200s´ Danske Tunge compared to modern Germanic languages: (Recipe for nut-oil written by the Danish doctor Henrik Harpestreng who died 1244): "Man skal takæ en dysk mæth nutæ kyærnæ oc en æggy skalæ full mæth salt oc en æggy skalæ full mæth het wat oc latæ them samæn i en heet mortel oc stampæ thæt wæl oc writhæ gømæn et klæthæ". Modern Danish: Man skal tage en tallerken med nøddekerner og en æggeskaldfuld med salt og en æggeskaldfuld med hedt vand og hælde dem sammen i en hed morter og stampe det godt og vride det gennem et klæde. Standard Norwegian: Du må ta en tallerken med nøttekjerner og et eggeskall fullt av salt og et eggeskall fullt av varmt vann og helle dem sammen i en varm morter og banke godt og vri det gjennom et klede. Modern Swedish: Man ska ta en tallrik med nötkärnor och ett äggskal fullt med salt och ett äggskal fullt med varmt vatten och hälla ihop dem i en het mortel och stampa det väl och vrida igenom en trasa. Modern English: You shall take a plate of nut kernels and an eggshell full of salt and an eggshell full of hot water and pour them together in a hot mortar and pound it well and wring it through a cloth. Modern Icelandic: Taka þarf disk af hnetukjörnum og eggjaskurn fulla af salti og eggjaskurn af heitu vatni og hella saman í heitt mortéli og þeyta vel og þrýsta í gegnum klút. Modern Frisian: Do moatst in plaat mei nutepitten en in aaiskûl fol sâlt en in aaiskop fol waarm wetter nimme en dy byinoar yn in hite moarmer skine en goed klopje en troch in doek wringje. Modern German: Man nimmt einen Teller Nusskerne, eine Eierschale voll Salz und eine Eierschale voll heißes Wasser, gießt beides in einen heißen Mörser, zerstampft es gut und wringt es durch ein Tuch. Modern Dutch: Je moet een bord met notenpitten en een eierschaal vol zout en een eierschaal vol heet water nemen en deze samen in een hete vijzel gieten en goed stampen en door een doek uitwringen
This was very interesting to read. I understood the original recipe perfectly. This was actually easy for me to read. And therefor I want to add a faroese translation: Man skal taka ein tallerk við nøtukjarnum, og eitt eggjaskal fult við salti, og eitt eggjaskal fult við heitum vatni, og lata tað saman í ein heitan mortara, og knúsa tað væl, og kroysta tað gjøgnum eitt klæði.
Viking does not mean farm settler, it means the people who travel through the inlets. Also, there were no Gaelic tribes in Norway, don't just make shit up.
@@chalphon4907 Your etymology assumes the compound of the word Viking is of the form vik-ingR. However, if the compound is instead Vi-KingR, the word could mean "frigænger" (free-going horse or gangster) which is closer to its actual modern meaning of brigant-eer, freebooter, and words like "fregate" (afore-going or free-going warship). The reasoning behind this: In North-Germanic languages it seems there´s an etymologic connection between notations "v-" and "fr-" as in "vie"/"fri", "venlig"/"frændelig", "våde"/"væde"/"fråde", etc In any case there´s a load of meanings of "vig-" in Scandinavian languages such as "vígður" = consecrate. "Also, there were no Gaelic tribes in Norway". But there were most certainly individuals of gaelic ancestry living in Scandinavia likely including shipbulding worksmen of the Norse-Irish "mixed race" ancestry we call "Norse-Gaels". The very large Danish Viking longship "Skuldelev 2" found in the Firth of Roskilde on the Danish island of Zealand (Sjælland) was build in the vicinity of Dublin (probably at Strand Street, Wicklow) around 1042 AD from oak tree felled in Glendalough. Two of the four other Viking ships found at the same spot were build in Sognefjorden in western Norway. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skuldelev_ships
"Hollywood" has completely destroyed the history of Vikings. Why do Americans always insist that they are from Norway? You always have to have mountains al around them, even though, the flatter areas would have been much more populated. Norse does not mean Norwegian.
Stop filling people with all that nonsense. What you label "Old West Norse" were actually called Norrøn by it´s speakers, and the Norrøn of the Shetlands were very close to modern Faroese. Norrøn is basically broken Danish. What you call Old East Norse was actually called Danske Tunge according to even the oldest Icelandic sources. Danish is referred to as Danske Tunge in the oldest Icelandic text ""Fyrsta málfræðiritgerðin" and is not only attested in English place-names from the 6th century ("-stæth" rather than "-stadr", as in Lynsted, Selsted, etc.) but also in the writings In Danske Tunge of Henrik Harpestreng who died in 1244, before most of the Icelandic sagas were written. Also Danske Tunge was spoken in all southern Scandinavia including the Viken area of southern Norway. Please keep some respect for the Vikings and their language.
Nah bro lol. Old East Norse and Old West Norse are established scientific terms. Obviously that's not how they called it themselves back then, just like the speakers of Old English wouldn't have called it that.
@jesperlykkeberg7438 Old West Norse/Norwegian was called ”norrø̄n tunga” or ”norrø̄na” by the West Norse as well as at least to some extent the Post-Viking Swedes. After the West Norse speaking areas came under Danish rule the Western Norse also started to call it ”dǫnsk tunga”, which seems to have been perpetuated by the fact that the Anglo-Saxons referred to all Scandinavian raiders and settlers as Danes within their lands. The West Norse speakers later started to shift their use towards the word ”norrø̄na” once again. It meant both Norwegian Tongue as well as Old Norse as a whole (the language from the North). The East Norse never had a common name for Old Norse as far as we can tell or attest except for maybe ”ōart/wārt mál” (our language… which seems more of a designation rather than an actual name). The Danes usually called it ”dǫnsk/dansk tunga/danska” (Danish Tongue), the Swedes called it ”swǣnsk tunga/swǣnska” (Swedish Tongue), the Geats ”gauzk tunga/gauzka” (Geatish Tongue) and the Gotlanders ”gutnisk tunga/gutniska” (Gutnish Tongue). All named after each respective tribe’s dialect within the Eastern Norse branch. West Norse and East Norse was never a concept among the Norse. They simply seem to have seen it as the same language regardless of East or West. The reason for the modern designation is based off of linguistic research. In other words it’s a real thing and very important when delving into especially the later dialects. Many of these differences can be seen already on the rune-stones. In the West, Norwegian was very uniform whether it was in Norway, Iceland, Faroe islands or elsewhere. There were differences between them but they were very tiny. In the East so in Sweden and Denmark as well as settled areas there were also differences between these East Norse dialects but once again… they were tiny at best. And all of Old Norse was still during Snorri Sturluson’s time seen as being the same language regardless of regional speech. By the Icelanders at least. Snorri called the language of the Norse ”norrø̄n tunga/norrø̄na” (Norwegian tongue/Tongue of the North… ”norrø̄nn” literally means ”from/of the North” so not only from Norway. Compare ”suðrø̄nn/suðrmaðr” referring to aspects, peoples and cultures south of ”Scandinavia”) as well as ”dǫnsk tunga” (Danish tongue)... Iceland (and Norway) was under Danish rule at the time. Old Danish hails back to mainly ”staðr”, not ”stæðr”. Danish still has that form of the word in for instance ”stadfæste”. The /e/ in Danish ”sted” looks like a Post-Viking later German influence in plural that also entered singular in Danish. The same thing happened in Swedish ”stad/städer” (older staþer/staþir from even older staðr/staðiʀ) but there the singular still keeps the original vowel /a/ in all instances… "stad", ”stadfästa”, ”eldstad”, ”bostad” etc.
@@Utgardaloki76 You claim the Swedish singular ""stad" still keeps the original vowel /a/ in all instances". You are wrong, however. It´s a proven fact that isn´t original, but a rather late influence from the German word "stadt". As an example, in the church (Vor Frue Kirke) in the Swedish town of Ystad, the original name of the town is displayed on the baptism fund as "Ydsted". The town´s name was only much later changed from Ydsted to Ystad by the Swedes. And just as the German words stadt and stelle are different words with different meanings so are the Danish "stad" (as in "stadfæste") and "sted" (as in a separate Danish word "stedfæste"). You are clearly confusing two completely different Danish words "stad" and "sted" in your attempt to drive home your unfounded claims. You should be more careful when you´re dealing with the language of the Vikings. As I pointed out: the British placenames with "-sted" endings point to the original Danish pronunciation "-ste-eth" originating from even hundreds of years before the Viking era, considering the county of Kent wasn´t a part of the late Viking Danelaw, but has Danish "-sted" placenames none the less, as well as "-inge" endings ("Lyminge", etc.) unique to Eastern Denmark and Skåne. These place names are presumably from the 6th century, or possibly even older, such as the name of the Roman "Saxon Shore" fortress "Othona". But clearly Danish, none the less. Furthermore, the Icelandic "-ur" pronunciations are rather modern Icelandic lexical inventions (influenced by European lexicallity). Those "-R" endings would never have been pronounced in Danske Tunge. Your assertion that Danish and Icelandic was seen as being the same language ("Old Norse") during Snorri Sturluson’s time is in conflict with all evidence and amounts to utter misinterpretation of history. The Icelanders called THEIR OWN language "Norrøn" and they always regarded and mentioned Danske Tunge as another language the exact same way they would mention Finnish or English. In fact your claim that Norse people would have seen Norrøn and Danske Tunge as the same language is completely absurd. We have identical texts from the same era written in both of these anguages and the difference between these languages are clearly profound and not "tiny at best" as you claim. One important difference is the Danish "en/et"-articles attested in Henrik Harpestreng´s 1100-1200´s publications which are older than most Icelandic sagas. As opposed to Faroese, Icelandic never had these "en/et"-articles. This is a massive difference between 1200´s Danish and 1200´s "Old Norse" that cannot simply be ignored by any serious linguist. Another huge difference is the ancient Danish grammatical regularities for abbreviation and compounding of words such as "forbidden" (Old English "forbeotan") from a Danish construction of the type "ved-FOR-BØDE-HEN-hørende sig" = "forbuden". Compare with Old Low German: "war-zu-dem-mit-VER-BOTE-HIN-als-zu-sich-erhoeren" = "verboten". Icelandic has never been able to display this sort of ancient Germanic word-constructing and, like Old English, merely seems to have imported such words from the Germanic mother languages in which they were constructed. It´s evident that the Icelanders saw all the Southern Scandinavian dialects as being dialects of Danske Tunge regardless if they were East Danish, Jutish, Geatish, Scanian, etc. But we find no evidence, whatsoever, that they ever saw their own language as a Danish dialect as opposed to simply having an understanding of Danish as being the mother language of all Scandinavian languages. You said: "West Norse and East Norse was never a concept among the Norse." Exactly. These terms are clearly invented in modern times. What the ancient Icelanders obviously must have had a concept of, however, was the clear differences between their own language and Danish respectively. You said: "Compare ”suðrø̄nn/suðrmaðr” referring to aspects, peoples and cultures south of ”Scandinavia”" Gladly. If you can give me a reference to a primary source from the Viking era, rather than merely unfounded claims. You said: "...the Anglo-Saxons referred to all Scandinavian raiders and settlers as Danes within their lands." For a reason, presumably. Which is why it would be wise to call their language "Danish". This, however, doesn´t mean that Old Icelandic should be called Danish, needless to say. Not least considering that the Danish raids commenced long before Iceland was even populated. In my following post is a comparison of the 1100-1200s´ Danske Tunge to modern Germanic languages. For your pleasure. Cheers.
@@Utgardaloki76 1100-1200s´ Danske Tunge compared to modern Germanic languages: (Recipe for nut-oil written by the Danish doctor Henrik Harpestreng who died 1244): "Man skal takæ en dysk mæth nutæ kyærnæ oc en æggy skalæ full mæth salt oc en æggy skalæ full mæth het wat oc latæ them samæn i en heet mortel oc stampæ thæt wæl oc writhæ gømæn et klæthæ". Modern Danish: Man skal tage en tallerken med nøddekerner og en æggeskaldfuld med salt og en æggeskaldfuld med hedt vand og hælde dem sammen i en hed morter og stampe det godt og vride det gennem et klæde. Standard Norwegian: Du må ta en tallerken med nøttekjerner og et eggeskall fullt av salt og et eggeskall fullt av varmt vann og helle dem sammen i en varm morter og banke godt og vri det gjennom et klede. Modern Swedish: Man ska ta en tallrik med nötkärnor och ett äggskal fullt med salt och ett äggskal fullt med varmt vatten och hälla ihop dem i en het mortel och stampa det väl och vrida igenom en trasa. Modern Faroese: Man skal taka ein tallerk við nøtukjarnum, og eitt eggjaskal fult við salti, og eitt eggjaskal fult við heitum vatni, og lata tað saman í ein heitan mortara, og knúsa tað væl, og kroysta tað gjøgnum eitt klæði. Modern Icelandic: Taka þarf disk af hnetukjörnum og eggjaskurn fulla af salti og eggjaskurn af heitu vatni og hella saman í heitt mortéli og þeyta vel og þrýsta í gegnum klút. Modern English: You shall take a plate of nut kernels and an eggshell full of salt and an eggshell full of hot water and pour them together in a hot mortar and pound it well and wring it through a cloth. Modern Frisian: Do moatst in plaat mei nutepitten en in aaiskûl fol sâlt en in aaiskop fol waarm wetter nimme en dy byinoar yn in hite moarmer skine en goed klopje en troch in doek wringje. Modern German: Man nimmt einen Teller Nusskerne, eine Eierschale voll Salz und eine Eierschale voll heißes Wasser, gießt beides in einen heißen Mörser, zerstampft es gut und wringt es durch ein Tuch. Modern Dutch: Je moet een bord met notenpitten en een eierschaal vol zout en een eierschaal vol heet water nemen en deze samen in een hete vijzel gieten en goed stampen en door een doek uitwringen.
@jesperlykkeberg7438 ”In fact your claim that Norse people would have seen Norrøn and Danske Tunge as the same language is completely absurd. We have identical texts from the same era written in both of these anguages and the difference between these languages are clearly profound and not "tiny at best" as you claim.” I’m sure the differences might seem big or strange to you but if you know the language and different ways of expressing yourself within it then no. They were tiny at best and ever more so the closer you get to the Viking Era. There were differences between the dialects but what is your point? (Not so) Old Danish "Man skal takæ en dysk mæth nutæ kyærnæ oc en æggy skalæ full mæth salt oc en æggy skalæ full mæth het wat oc latæ them samæn i en heet mortel oc stampæ thæt wæl oc writhæ gømæn et klæthæ". Let's change the orthography to Western Norse type without changing this Danish dialect. "Mann skal takæ én(n) disk mæð nutæ kjærnæ ok én æggi skalæ full mæð salt ok én æggi skalæ full mæð hét(t) watn ok látæ þém samæn í én(n) hét mortel ok stampæ þæt wæl ok wríðæ gømæn ét(t) klǽðæ". ”Modern Icelandic: Taka þarf disk af hnetukjörnum og eggjaskurn fulla af salti og eggjaskurn af heitu vatni og hella saman í heitt mortéli [
Oh man, a whole language that lived and died that was modern enough that we could've known something about it but don't. That's really something!
,Yest was written down.
For anyone interested in a deep-dive:
Jakob Jakobsen, 'An etymological dictionary of the Norn language in Shetland'( 2 volumes.). Printed by S. L. Møller, Copenhagen.
Originally published in Danish as 'Etymologisk ordbog over det norröne sprog på Shetland.'
Reprinted Lerwick: The Shetland Folk Society, 1985. (1st ed.). Shaftesbury Avenue, London: David Nutt (A. G. Berry).
A pidgin of Ojibwe, Norn, Gaelic, Orcadian Scots, Seaulteaux, and Cree existed until still some remnants of the pidgin today when we talk slang.
that's rly cool, can you give some examples of words?
This must be the lingua franca of immigrant and native traders in central Canada. Would anyone have used vocabulary from all those languages, including Norn?
When I visited Shetland we spoke to a few old crofters and their dialect was so thick it sounded like Icelandic. With younger generations it sounds a lot more Scottish, but the shetlanders still use plenty of vocabulary derived from old Norse.
hearing someone call the isle of man just man is so weird lol
Someone told me that Norn was mutually intelligible with Faroese. I'm surprised there isn't a move to reinstate it to Orkney and Shetland just like they're doing with Manx in the Isle of Man.
i had a 48 second unskippable add in the beggining! wth youtube!!!!
Apparently, the Norn language would have gotten a revival lately.
I’m from England I was lost when u referred to a place called “Mann”. Eventually I figured it out lol. It’s never ever been heard by my ears as anything other than “The Isle of Man” or in my accent “ ire la man”(sic) 😂
So was the Norse or Viking tongue spoken by the "Natives" as portrayed in the movie "The 13th Warrior" accurate? Thank you
Just for context the language was of course not called old Norse at he time (1000ad) but Norrǫna, which in the following 450 years in isolation on the Orkney and Shetland islands dropped the ǫ and a and just because Norn which incidentally also was the name of the three fates from Nordic mythology: Urðr, Verðandi & Skuld or Past, Present and Future roughly translated
As far as I know, the fine, bardic language, whenever given a name in the old Icelandic literature, is called dönsk tunga - "Danish tongue". Few subjects have undergone so much twisting and bias by modern nationalism as Nordic language history. In the late 19th century 80% of the population of Norway spoke Bokmål, an East Nordic language.
Be nice to drop the 'Viking' thing, when these were probably mostly just farmer migrant types, sheep farmers and likely had been sailing back and forth for many hundreds of years. Faroese and Norn are similar. Faroes or 'Foroya' means 'Sheep Islands'. Even 'Viking' means something like: Farm settlers. Norn was also two dialects, the Orkney and the Shetland. Shetland was more pure Norse but Orkney was influence by Old English style - but they people were also mixed with Gaelic people also. Like in the Faroes, people have a high amount of Gaelic ancestry. same as parts of western Norway, a large amount of Gaelic.
The entire east of Scotland is 'Norse' and north east England. South east England, more connected to what is now the Netherlands / Friesland / west Germany.
1100-1200s´ Danske Tunge compared to modern Germanic languages:
(Recipe for nut-oil written by the Danish doctor Henrik Harpestreng who died 1244):
"Man skal takæ en dysk mæth nutæ kyærnæ oc en æggy skalæ full mæth salt oc en æggy skalæ full mæth het wat oc latæ them samæn i en heet mortel oc stampæ thæt wæl oc writhæ gømæn et klæthæ".
Modern Danish: Man skal tage en tallerken med nøddekerner og en æggeskaldfuld med salt og en æggeskaldfuld med hedt vand og hælde dem sammen i en hed morter og stampe det godt og vride det gennem et klæde.
Standard Norwegian: Du må ta en tallerken med nøttekjerner og et eggeskall fullt av salt og et eggeskall fullt av varmt vann og helle dem sammen i en varm morter og banke godt og vri det gjennom et klede.
Modern Swedish: Man ska ta en tallrik med nötkärnor och ett äggskal fullt med salt och ett äggskal fullt med varmt vatten och hälla ihop dem i en het mortel och stampa det väl och vrida igenom en trasa.
Modern English: You shall take a plate of nut kernels and an eggshell full of salt and an eggshell full of hot water and pour them together in a hot mortar and pound it well and wring it through a cloth.
Modern Icelandic: Taka þarf disk af hnetukjörnum og eggjaskurn fulla af salti og eggjaskurn af heitu vatni og hella saman í heitt mortéli og þeyta vel og þrýsta í gegnum klút.
Modern Frisian: Do moatst in plaat mei nutepitten en in aaiskûl fol sâlt en in aaiskop fol waarm wetter nimme en dy byinoar yn in hite moarmer skine en goed klopje en troch in doek wringje.
Modern German: Man nimmt einen Teller Nusskerne, eine Eierschale voll Salz und eine Eierschale voll heißes Wasser, gießt beides in einen heißen Mörser, zerstampft es gut und wringt es durch ein Tuch.
Modern Dutch: Je moet een bord met notenpitten en een eierschaal vol zout en een eierschaal vol heet water nemen en deze samen in een hete vijzel gieten en goed stampen en door een doek uitwringen
This was very interesting to read. I understood the original recipe perfectly. This was actually easy for me to read. And therefor I want to add a faroese translation:
Man skal taka ein tallerk við nøtukjarnum, og eitt eggjaskal fult við salti, og eitt eggjaskal fult við heitum vatni, og lata tað saman í ein heitan mortara, og knúsa tað væl, og kroysta tað gjøgnum eitt klæði.
@@sigrimikkjalsdottir2458 Thank you very much for your Faroese translation.
Viking does not mean farm settler, it means the people who travel through the inlets. Also, there were no Gaelic tribes in Norway, don't just make shit up.
@@chalphon4907 Your etymology assumes the compound of the word Viking is of the form vik-ingR. However, if the compound is instead Vi-KingR, the word could mean "frigænger" (free-going horse or gangster) which is closer to its actual modern meaning of brigant-eer, freebooter, and words like "fregate" (afore-going or free-going warship).
The reasoning behind this: In North-Germanic languages it seems there´s an etymologic connection between notations "v-" and "fr-" as in "vie"/"fri", "venlig"/"frændelig", "våde"/"væde"/"fråde", etc
In any case there´s a load of meanings of "vig-" in Scandinavian languages such as "vígður" = consecrate.
"Also, there were no Gaelic tribes in Norway".
But there were most certainly individuals of gaelic ancestry living in Scandinavia likely including shipbulding worksmen of the Norse-Irish "mixed race" ancestry we call "Norse-Gaels".
The very large Danish Viking longship "Skuldelev 2" found in the Firth of Roskilde on the Danish island of Zealand (Sjælland) was build in the vicinity of Dublin (probably at Strand Street, Wicklow) around 1042 AD from oak tree felled in Glendalough.
Two of the four other Viking ships found at the same spot were build in Sognefjorden in western Norway.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skuldelev_ships
Norway wasn't a country back then so saying that the islands were a part of the kingdom of Norway isn't really true.
He never said the Islands were part of the kingdom of Norway. Even if he did it wouldnt be wrong since the kingdom of Norway did exist even back then.
"Hollywood" has completely destroyed the history of Vikings. Why do Americans always insist that they are from Norway? You always have to have mountains al around them, even though, the flatter areas would have been much more populated.
Norse does not mean Norwegian.
1:04 "Shet land" XD
/aɪ ˈlaik jə ˈklɑːs ‖ aɪ m ˈɪntrɪstɪd ɪn dʒɜːˈmænɪk ˈlæŋgwɪdʒɪz ‖ ˈɪŋglɪʃ ɪz ˈwʌn əv ðəm ‖/
Stop filling people with all that nonsense. What you label "Old West Norse" were actually called Norrøn by it´s speakers, and the Norrøn of the Shetlands were very close to modern Faroese. Norrøn is basically broken Danish.
What you call Old East Norse was actually called Danske Tunge according to even the oldest Icelandic sources. Danish is referred to as Danske Tunge in the oldest Icelandic text ""Fyrsta málfræðiritgerðin" and is not only attested in English place-names from the 6th century ("-stæth" rather than "-stadr", as in Lynsted, Selsted, etc.) but also in the writings In Danske Tunge of Henrik Harpestreng who died in 1244, before most of the Icelandic sagas were written. Also Danske Tunge was spoken in all southern Scandinavia including the Viken area of southern Norway.
Please keep some respect for the Vikings and their language.
Nah bro lol. Old East Norse and Old West Norse are established scientific terms. Obviously that's not how they called it themselves back then, just like the speakers of Old English wouldn't have called it that.
@jesperlykkeberg7438
Old West Norse/Norwegian was called ”norrø̄n tunga” or ”norrø̄na” by the West Norse as well as at least to some extent the Post-Viking Swedes. After the West Norse speaking areas came under Danish rule the Western Norse also started to call it ”dǫnsk tunga”, which seems to have been perpetuated by the fact that the Anglo-Saxons referred to all Scandinavian raiders and settlers as Danes within their lands. The West Norse speakers later started to shift their use towards the word ”norrø̄na” once again. It meant both Norwegian Tongue as well as Old Norse as a whole (the language from the North).
The East Norse never had a common name for Old Norse as far as we can tell or attest except for maybe ”ōart/wārt mál” (our language… which seems more of a designation rather than an actual name). The Danes usually called it ”dǫnsk/dansk tunga/danska” (Danish Tongue), the Swedes called it ”swǣnsk tunga/swǣnska” (Swedish Tongue), the Geats ”gauzk tunga/gauzka” (Geatish Tongue) and the Gotlanders ”gutnisk tunga/gutniska” (Gutnish Tongue). All named after each respective tribe’s dialect within the Eastern Norse branch.
West Norse and East Norse was never a concept among the Norse. They simply seem to have seen it as the same language regardless of East or West. The reason for the modern designation is based off of linguistic research. In other words it’s a real thing and very important when delving into especially the later dialects. Many of these differences can be seen already on the rune-stones.
In the West, Norwegian was very uniform whether it was in Norway, Iceland, Faroe islands or elsewhere. There were differences between them but they were very tiny.
In the East so in Sweden and Denmark as well as settled areas there were also differences between these East Norse dialects but once again… they were tiny at best.
And all of Old Norse was still during Snorri Sturluson’s time seen as being the same language regardless of regional speech. By the Icelanders at least. Snorri called the language of the Norse ”norrø̄n tunga/norrø̄na” (Norwegian tongue/Tongue of the North… ”norrø̄nn” literally means ”from/of the North” so not only from Norway. Compare ”suðrø̄nn/suðrmaðr” referring to aspects, peoples and cultures south of ”Scandinavia”) as well as ”dǫnsk tunga” (Danish tongue)... Iceland (and Norway) was under Danish rule at the time.
Old Danish hails back to mainly ”staðr”, not ”stæðr”. Danish still has that form of the word in for instance ”stadfæste”. The /e/ in Danish ”sted” looks like a Post-Viking later German influence in plural that also entered singular in Danish. The same thing happened in Swedish ”stad/städer” (older staþer/staþir from even older staðr/staðiʀ) but there the singular still keeps the original vowel /a/ in all instances… "stad", ”stadfästa”, ”eldstad”, ”bostad” etc.
@@Utgardaloki76 You claim the Swedish singular ""stad" still keeps the original vowel /a/ in all instances". You are wrong, however.
It´s a proven fact that isn´t original, but a rather late influence from the German word "stadt".
As an example, in the church (Vor Frue Kirke) in the Swedish town of Ystad, the original name of the town is displayed on the baptism fund as "Ydsted". The town´s name was only much later changed from Ydsted to Ystad by the Swedes.
And just as the German words stadt and stelle are different words with different meanings so are the Danish "stad" (as in "stadfæste") and "sted" (as in a separate Danish word "stedfæste"). You are clearly confusing two completely different Danish words "stad" and "sted" in your attempt to drive home your unfounded claims. You should be more careful when you´re dealing with the language of the Vikings.
As I pointed out: the British placenames with "-sted" endings point to the original Danish pronunciation "-ste-eth" originating from even hundreds of years before the Viking era, considering the county of Kent wasn´t a part of the late Viking Danelaw, but has Danish "-sted" placenames none the less, as well as "-inge" endings ("Lyminge", etc.) unique to Eastern Denmark and Skåne. These place names are presumably from the 6th century, or possibly even older, such as the name of the Roman "Saxon Shore" fortress "Othona". But clearly Danish, none the less.
Furthermore, the Icelandic "-ur" pronunciations are rather modern Icelandic lexical inventions (influenced by European lexicallity). Those "-R" endings would never have been pronounced in Danske Tunge.
Your assertion that Danish and Icelandic was seen as being the same language ("Old Norse") during Snorri Sturluson’s time is in conflict with all evidence and amounts to utter misinterpretation of history. The Icelanders called THEIR OWN language "Norrøn" and they always regarded and mentioned Danske Tunge as another language the exact same way they would mention Finnish or English.
In fact your claim that Norse people would have seen Norrøn and Danske Tunge as the same language is completely absurd. We have identical texts from the same era written in both of these anguages and the difference between these languages are clearly profound and not "tiny at best" as you claim.
One important difference is the Danish "en/et"-articles attested in Henrik Harpestreng´s 1100-1200´s publications which are older than most Icelandic sagas. As opposed to Faroese, Icelandic never had these "en/et"-articles. This is a massive difference between 1200´s Danish and 1200´s "Old Norse" that cannot simply be ignored by any serious linguist.
Another huge difference is the ancient Danish grammatical regularities for abbreviation and compounding of words such as "forbidden" (Old English "forbeotan") from a Danish construction of the type "ved-FOR-BØDE-HEN-hørende sig" =
"forbuden".
Compare with Old Low German: "war-zu-dem-mit-VER-BOTE-HIN-als-zu-sich-erhoeren" =
"verboten".
Icelandic has never been able to display this sort of ancient Germanic word-constructing and, like Old English, merely seems to have imported such words from the Germanic mother languages in which they were constructed.
It´s evident that the Icelanders saw all the Southern Scandinavian dialects as being dialects of Danske Tunge regardless if they were East Danish, Jutish, Geatish, Scanian, etc. But we find no evidence, whatsoever, that they ever saw their own language as a Danish dialect as opposed to simply having an understanding of Danish as being the mother language of all Scandinavian languages.
You said: "West Norse and East Norse was never a concept among the Norse."
Exactly. These terms are clearly invented in modern times. What the ancient Icelanders obviously must have had a concept of, however, was the clear differences between their own language and Danish respectively.
You said: "Compare ”suðrø̄nn/suðrmaðr” referring to aspects, peoples and cultures south of ”Scandinavia”"
Gladly. If you can give me a reference to a primary source from the Viking era, rather than merely unfounded claims.
You said: "...the Anglo-Saxons referred to all Scandinavian raiders and settlers as Danes within their lands."
For a reason, presumably. Which is why it would be wise to call their language "Danish".
This, however, doesn´t mean that Old Icelandic should be called Danish, needless to say. Not least considering that the Danish raids commenced long before Iceland was even populated.
In my following post is a comparison of the 1100-1200s´ Danske Tunge to modern Germanic languages. For your pleasure. Cheers.
@@Utgardaloki76 1100-1200s´ Danske Tunge compared to modern Germanic languages:
(Recipe for nut-oil written by the Danish doctor Henrik Harpestreng who died 1244):
"Man skal takæ en dysk mæth nutæ kyærnæ oc en æggy skalæ full mæth salt oc en æggy skalæ full mæth het wat oc latæ them samæn i en heet mortel oc stampæ thæt wæl oc writhæ gømæn et klæthæ".
Modern Danish: Man skal tage en tallerken med nøddekerner og en æggeskaldfuld med salt og en æggeskaldfuld med hedt vand og hælde dem sammen i en hed morter og stampe det godt og vride det gennem et klæde.
Standard Norwegian: Du må ta en tallerken med nøttekjerner og et eggeskall fullt av salt og et eggeskall fullt av varmt vann og helle dem sammen i en varm morter og banke godt og vri det gjennom et klede.
Modern Swedish: Man ska ta en tallrik med nötkärnor och ett äggskal fullt med salt och ett äggskal fullt med varmt vatten och hälla ihop dem i en het mortel och stampa det väl och vrida igenom en trasa.
Modern Faroese: Man skal taka ein tallerk við nøtukjarnum, og eitt eggjaskal fult við salti, og eitt eggjaskal fult við heitum vatni, og lata tað saman í ein heitan mortara, og knúsa tað væl, og kroysta tað gjøgnum eitt klæði.
Modern Icelandic: Taka þarf disk af hnetukjörnum og eggjaskurn fulla af salti og eggjaskurn af heitu vatni og hella saman í heitt mortéli og þeyta vel og þrýsta í gegnum klút.
Modern English: You shall take a plate of nut kernels and an eggshell full of salt and an eggshell full of hot water and pour them together in a hot mortar and pound it well and wring it through a cloth.
Modern Frisian: Do moatst in plaat mei nutepitten en in aaiskûl fol sâlt en in aaiskop fol waarm wetter nimme en dy byinoar yn in hite moarmer skine en goed klopje en troch in doek wringje.
Modern German: Man nimmt einen Teller Nusskerne, eine Eierschale voll Salz und eine Eierschale voll heißes Wasser, gießt beides in einen heißen Mörser, zerstampft es gut und wringt es durch ein Tuch.
Modern Dutch: Je moet een bord met notenpitten en een eierschaal vol zout en een eierschaal vol heet water nemen en deze samen in een hete vijzel gieten en goed stampen en door een doek uitwringen.
@jesperlykkeberg7438
”In fact your claim that Norse people would have seen Norrøn and Danske Tunge as the same language is completely absurd. We have identical texts from the same era written in both of these anguages and the difference between these languages are clearly profound and not "tiny at best" as you claim.”
I’m sure the differences might seem big or strange to you but if you know the language and different ways of expressing yourself within it then no. They were tiny at best and ever more so the closer you get to the Viking Era. There were differences between the dialects but what is your point?
(Not so) Old Danish
"Man skal takæ en dysk mæth nutæ kyærnæ oc en æggy skalæ full mæth salt oc en æggy skalæ full mæth het wat oc latæ them samæn i en heet mortel oc stampæ thæt wæl oc writhæ gømæn et klæthæ".
Let's change the orthography to Western Norse type without changing this Danish dialect.
"Mann skal takæ én(n) disk mæð nutæ kjærnæ ok én æggi skalæ full mæð salt ok én æggi skalæ full mæð hét(t) watn ok látæ þém samæn í én(n) hét mortel ok stampæ þæt wæl ok wríðæ gømæn ét(t) klǽðæ".
”Modern Icelandic: Taka þarf disk af hnetukjörnum og eggjaskurn fulla af salti og eggjaskurn af heitu vatni og
hella saman í heitt mortéli [