I use them instead of entertainers. Pop growth + amenities. I’ve never understood why you tubers hate them so much. It’s not the first thing I build, but once I need amenities, it’s the building of choice for me.
@@OnlineKenji It’s my second choice normally, first I do trade centers, for the trade value which gives me consumer goods and energy, then I use that to fund later gene clinics with a higher population
@@OnlineKenji I normally build entertainers because I swap out the 5 clerks for 1 entertainer to maintain my amenities. But looking at this video, I think I'll evaluate when to build gene clinic a bit more seriously versus entertainers.
Same. I have 1.9k hours in Stellaris and I built them first thing everywhere because I getNeuron activation when I see pop growth speed. I do feel kinda stupid after this video. But only kinda.
@@transfem-oni-empress Same 1961 hours, mostly in multiplayer, and I always rush every bonus to pop growth I can get my hands on. People saying Gene clinics suck are super weird and don't seem to be playing the same game..
@@OnlineKenji Yes. Literally no one talks about this, not even in this video. It says this if you read the tooltip, but gene clinics also boost clone vat production in addition to the pop growth bonus. With 4 clinic specialists, you get +0.6 monthly pop assembly. I guess it's because of a combination of people already not liking the gene clinics and therefore never using them and reading this, combined with synthetic ascension being generally viewed by the community as the meta strategy.
Also you can get full psychic leaders with only tradition tier 2, conversely you only get the cyborgs at tier 2 (after a not cheap engineering project). And need tier 3 to synth. (after another.) That's a lot of unity for early/mid game.
So, quick summary: build gene clinics if your habitability isnt 100% and you need some amenities for your pops. This is the conclusion I get from the video and it sounds about right. tx for the video
"If you're running a trade based economy you will lose out on 3% stability for not having the extra amenities" Dude if you're running a trade based economy you have ALL the amenities.
Not true, you may need to top up amenities, the option is between using a lot of clerks (5 IIRC), 2 medics or a holo theatre. The entertainers produce a tiny amount of unity which is insignificant if you have trade policy producing unity. Lem's changed things a lot though as Mercantile allows extra merchants and an insane amount of trade value with Urban planet setting.
Gene Clinics are good because they're hospital and it makes me happy that my people are happy they get the medical service they deserve. :D Be happy my people, be happy and healthyyyyy!!!
I've been playing an Inward Perfection game, focusing on getting every pop growth speed buff in the game, and have been really happy with Gene Clinics.
I made an inward perfection avian race (Holy Coop Empire) and had the life seeded origin in a recent game, used gene clinics to great effect. I was lucky I had another gaia world and the rubicator event nearby so had three planets pretty early. Three +20 planets and insane pop growth.
I always used them because I didn't "know any better". Now I use them because I like them, but I've at least been able to let go of the need for one on each planet I colonize
I still build them everywhere honestly. Not really because they are better as I even build them on Gaia. They just look nice there in the number 1 slot followed by Resource improvement then Alloy/Consumer then the rest. Also RP wise it's probably good to have hospitals on all the planets :P
Something everybody seems to be ignoring is that the extra pops at the end are nice but they aren't the only bonus the pop growth speed increase helps. Every pop is going to be coming in cumulatively faster than your opponents. Your first one is coming ten percent faster than theirs is. Your second is coming in twenty percent faster. And so on. This means that you have pops sooner which also means more resources.
Meanwhile they have more resources than you until that population difference kicks in. He didn't ignore it he actually pointed it out early on in the video.
@@MultiTurbonoob they have more unity. That's it. That's what he showed. In the time it takes to get the extra pops you lose out on less than 1000 unity.
@@loafofbread9400 the gene clinic isn't meant for end game. It's meant for the late part of the early game. You put it in when you need the amenities but not the unity and then replace it with the holo theater when it's not producing enough amenities. That way you get the bonuses and only miss out on a small amount of unity.
I always used gene clinics as replacements for holotheaters just out of preference. I figured if I had to waste pops on amenities I might as well also get new pops sooner. it's nice to finally be somewhat vindicated.
the game has so many options for achieving unity and amenities that Holo Theaters have never been considered a useful building by me. even more so now, for example, you are the first to build a persistence tree, but only until the fortress generates 3 unity points, then you go to the diplomacy tree so that the amassades also generate unity, this means that you will unlock the appropriate ability as the fourth, i.e. you will meet 80% 1-3 other empires, (in a game with 10 or less AI it is not optimal because half of them may not want embassies but 10+ is already good) when you already have two ways to unity or choose the 3 tradition tree that you want to complete or better yet you end up diplomacy or tenacity. Of course, if you plan to acquire one from the fortresses, it is worth unlocking all places for buildings quickly.
he failed to mention a lot of math which means u get ur pops back in 41 years (in his example in reality u will literally never get those pops back because of required growth scaling taking into account ur entire empire and logistical growth ceiling) and will be at -12 amenities ( as opposed to 0 if u made a holo theater) by that time requiring another 2 pops to work amenities jobs which mean u will have wasted 4 pops on amenities rather than 2 to get 2 aditonal pops which means u will have done literally nothing but miss out on a bunch of unity if u like how they look on ur planets or wanna see big numbers on the pop growth thingy go for them but they are literally just never worth it
@@linkhidalgogato Could you not just replace the gene clinic with a holo theater once it outlives it's usefuleness? I like them for setting up colonies, and then switching to holo theaters when they grow big. By that point the additional mineral cost is rarely felt.
Waiting tens of years for the extra pop is a bit misleading though, isn't it? Since the effect actually gives each of your pops slightly earlier, therefore you are already getting benefit way before the "full" pop is ready. I might be biased though, since it's a race to populate the galaxy!
I agree with this. It's effectively giving you the pop earlier, the benefit being the resources that pop generates before it otherwise would have existed, at the cost of the gene clinic
Sure.. but that pop you use to run the gene clinic could've been doing something else. So effectively, you're putting yourself 2 pops down with a gene clinic. It then takes decades of 10% increased pop growth to get 2 pops more than you would have if you didn't have that gene clinic.
@@RigelOrionBeta You aren't because medical workers can be disabled at any minute. You can just disable those jobs and force them to work others, if you really need them. What they are doing, in the mean time, is rapidly increasing the rate at which the colony gets set up.
@@RigelOrionBeta That's true, but the additional amenities means more stability, and more stability means more resources, right? So there's a bit of compensation in that regard. It does seem that gene clinics have pretty narrow usage though.
4:12 - It's worth noting that calculating the 'pop benefit' of gene clinics that way underestimates its actual benefit, because 'the pop' doesn't magically appear in 293 months. Instead, 'the pop' comes out piecemeal over that entire period, as each pop you produce comes out 'just a little bit sooner,' and this earlier appearance is 'part of the pop.' In simplified numbers - if normal growth is 3(month)/100(per pop)=33.33(months per pop) then gene clinics turn that to 3.375/100=29.629. This is a difference of ~3.7 months. By the time it's 'calculated to yield benefit' (293 months) it will have 'worked' in total for about half the time it was 'in production.' In simplified numbers; Normal growth: 33.33, 66.66, 99.99, 133.33, 166.66, 199.99. Gene Clinic gro: 29.63, 59.26, 88.89, 118.52, 148.15, 177.78. As you can see, the pop 'shows up and works' for ~1x3.7 months the first time, 2x the second time, 3x the third time, and so on until it's 'working all the time' when 'it's done.'
Wow, that was truly eye-opening. I think I have despite the buffs actually build gene clinics less in 3.0 + than in 2.8, because the upgraded building has less jobs and you have less building slots on a planet. But you've just convinced me to still build them on most bigger sized planets (I've only built them on planets over size 20 and Ringworlds in 3.0), maybe on every planet over size 17 now.
That is actually a good point, like compound interest. Invest two pops early on, then for 3.7 months there is a new pop with 3.7 months of production before the pop grows elsewhere. Then in 30 months (spitballing here) with another pop for 7.6 months worth of production before anyone else. About 9 pops grow during the 293 months it takes to get the bonus pop, and during that time there is an increasing amount of extra production from both having pops months earlier than anywhere else, and also the planet habitability and stability production bonus on top of that. In two 293 months cycles would grow 2 pops extra along with the 18 pops during that time. While it’s 33 years later, after that point the extra two pops cover the gene clinic jobs. Then another 33 years after would be ahead in pops. So I guess it takes a while but it grows on ya 😎
Yes this is da way when calculating the value of gene clinics (although the "bonus pop" way of analyzing as done in the vid is a nice bonus feature kinda).
In addition, some empires have a regular pop build speed of up to 7.5 per month, where the additional pop build speed of 10% would make 0.75, also we could boost the other build speed by using like clone vets and these hive farms from 8 to 8.8 so it does make a diffrence, especially in the late game. Actually these buildings make my empires a lot stronger pop wise in the late game and are a big reason, why many of my planets have up to 150 or 200 pops
Another case for gene clinics, is if you're playing as a species with a large pop growth malus: negating a malus is much stronger than gaining a bonus.
@@RUclipsAccountMan going from -75% to -50% doubles the value. Assuming a base of 100, you've gone from 25 to 50. It's like how +1 makes a huge difference if you're starting from a value of 1, but won't change much if you're starting from 1000.
@@RUclipsAccountMan Yes. But also no. What most people care about is the final result, and value bonuses based on how much they change the final result. Going from a final value of 25 to a final value of 50 is a huge increase. Going from 100 to 125 is nice. Going from 200 to 225 is fine. Going from 1025 to 1050 is meh. Any given source of +10% production is going to be worth the exact same amount in absolute value, but if you've already got +1000%, going to +1010% is going to be barely noticeable unless you're balanced on a knife's edge.
i just belive that a strong public health system is important for a functioning society. I also run utopian living standards the moment i can afford them.
What sells these now is its only 2 workers instead of 3 (like I'm experiencing still playing 3.0.4). The tug-of-war between having nothing but specialists and no workers always hard, but taking 3 workers made it really bad. The hab + amenities bonus also sell these.
I've always been a Gene Clinics stan so I'm glad to see other people think that they're worth. Do you think you could do something on uh, early militarization? I've literally never seen a guide on how to build up a military in Stellaris, people are just like "oh by now you should have X fleet power".
You mean that you want to steal population and planets instead of building them? Well, there is a unity upgrade you can get if you are xenoohobe which allows you to steal population from bombarded planets. I would build one foundry on the start planet and then if you can affort it from the basic resources on the colonys to. Look at the special buffs and build able sectors a planet has. Some are better for farming or mining then for production. I would go full mineral production at the start until you have roughly +100 /+150 a month. Then you can build special resources like consumer good factorys. Do not forget to have some generator too since moving ships and army's cost energy! Administration is not as important unless you want to play tall. Yust get 5 science ships out and look for good systems. If it comes to the worst you can always become a vassal of another empire and build up from inside.
Something I've been told is to always go above your fleet limit. Keep going until you cant sustain it because that's exactly what the A.I does. If you ever noticed a serious difference in strength between you and the A.I that might be why.
tech rush and focus on alloys. If you want to go even faster then you can start committing a cheeky little bit of human rights abuses in order to push your pops to make stuff faster.
I always put those on every single world (usually 10 or 20 planets in a game) and I always end up with more pops and more overall output overtime than the people I play with
You said i would probably disagree on this video... İ dont know how to.. you ran numbers great.. HOW CAN I DISAGREE? one thing you missed tho i think you should run numbers on them also Upgraded versions of gene clinics, holo-theaters-temples for late game math. Also temples give you spiritualist ethitcs attraction, meaning pops will be more alligned to factions that are happy, thus boosting happiness, boosting stability, boosting resource output.
he didnt run the numbers great tho he ignored the whole thing where for every 4 pops in ur empire it takes 1 additional growth to make a pop which means that even in his scenario of a 1 planet empire with 20 pops it would take 41 years (at max logistical growth) not 32 to get ur 2 pops and that doesnt even mean anything because if u have say idk more planets and pops like a normal empire and take into account that pop growth is capped by the carry capacity of the planet it will never pay itself off and even that means nothing because in the 41 years it takes to get ur 2 pops u will have also grown 20 additional pops putting ur planet at -12 amenities rather than 0 if u had just built a holo theater which means ur gonna need a holo theater on top of the gene clinic anyways
I've always liked them, though I tend to chase stacking percentile bonuses more than anything. Also I hate building entertainers. >.> I always thought a good 'fix' for them would allow the growth modifier to be lowered to something like 4% per worker, but allow the bonus to scale with Stability and Specialist modifiers (like from Meritocracy or Egalitarian).
I dont care for entertainers unless I have the militarist ethics that makes them duelist. You still get unity and amenities but you also get naval capacity
as long as u ignore required growth scaling then yes this can certainly be considered a deep dive into the math if u dont then its extremely shallow and also if u dont ignore it it works out that as we all already knew gene clinics are just useless
Inward Perfection with the Decadent Lifestyle civic plus budding traits on two species makes for an incredible build already, but throwing in gene clinics as well as entertainers is just mindblowing
is better that a hole theatres in any cases tho? considering that by the time the pop groth pays itself off (if it ever does which it wont because he failed to mention that require pop growth scales with how many pops u have and that it takes so long ur planets carry capacity will max out in almost every case before it pays itself off) u will be at -12 amenities instead of 0 if u had just used the holo theater which means ur gonna need a holo theatres anyways
For the people wondering why gene clinics were considered bad: historically, robot assembly plants were seen as better for pop growth, as they provide 2 pop assembly per month.
gene clinics ARE bad because u get literally nothing from them (after they added required growth scaling and logistical growth ceeling) they used to be bad because they took too long to pay out and yes certainly far longer than robot assembly plants
btw... There is Budding species trait and Permanent employment civic for Megacorp. These give additional assembly of organic pops (PE gives ability to build zombie pops at a specific building), and... gene clinics works on them. Unfortunately, all assembled pops will be zombies, but honestly, worker pop without an upkeep at all is a worker pop without an upkeep at all
Having clone vats assemble pops instead of increasing your pop growth was a major nerf to biological ascension. You used to be able to assemble robots at the same time.
I've been of the mind that they were fantastic because they have amenities and pop growth, pop growth being what I thought was the best stat on the game, because more pops equals more production in the long run. I cannot wait for Montu to crush my mindset like a bug and bring me to the light.
The reason to go entertainers over medical workers is not to get excess amenities with the entertainers, but to dedicate fewer pops to generating the same amenities.
The question is if your planet needs the extra amenities and if those extra amenities will be enough alone. Building a gene clinic and a holotheater is going to be better than 2 holotheaters.
@@jamesb3497 The only way "those extra amenities will be enough alone" is if you need 5 or fewer additional amenities, so it would only require one job either way. But if you only need 5 additional amenities, you can build luxury residences and get the amenities for zero jobs.
I generally use gene clinics more often than robot assembly plants, as I’m not a fan of managing multiple species, especially because it’s rare that you’ll get a situation where robots can resettle. This is especially problematic when you start dealing with habitats. And I’ve always gone with biological evolution, so I sometimes use clone vats later on to grow faster, as they produce 3 pop assembly as opposed to 2 with a robot assembly plant. Edit: with trade builds, you also shouldn’t need to worry about amenities, as the jobs that produce it generally also give amenities (I believe merchants give 5 amenities while clerks give 2).
I will admit I'm not the most experienced with bio path but doesn't it force you to micromanage an insane number of species? Like don't you end up with about 10 different pop templates if you are doing it remotely optimally? Surely If you just use one template you are kind of bypassing the point and the bonuses are strictly significantly lower than the synth or even the psy path.
I love mercantile merchants. I find myself building commercial zones instead of other amenity options nowadays, even when im not doing a trade focused empire
@@jamiefenwick8359 I mean, I usually go the biological route as a hive mind. And usually I just terraform everything into a hive world, modify my three most numerous species and then call it a day. Simple as.
@@jamiefenwick8359 Tomb world preference + robust + gene clinics/habitability techs = 100% habitability everywhere. There are a few other ways to get universal habitability, but this is my favorite. For consistent tomb world preference you need: At least 4 main species Pops on a tomb world colony, Main Species has below 40% Habitability on the colony, Main Species has below 50% Happiness on the colony. OR just have a science ship patrol in and out of a black hole system till you detect the horizon signal.
FINALLY! Someone else who gets it. I've been hearing the Gene Clincs are bad argument for a LONG time now with the reason being that it takes to long to get the pops. But I've been using them for a long time as part of my primary strategy for the very reasons you mention in this video. You have to produce amenities anyway so why not get extra pop growth at the same time, especially when pops are power.
I felt similar, especially after PDX added Budding trait or going with genetic ascencion. But there is one issue with holotheaters - you get enough amenietes with one job (I just treat them as obligatory maintrence rather than unity production and with free building slots even going with residences), so if you micro that really hard, clinic gets it's payoff much later, (not 16 but ~40 years). Moreover, before glandural modification, this habitability option have impact on conquered worlds while playing xenophobic empire (because of rulers impact and stability issue). I would use clinic earlygame, but on the other hand, biological reaserch have more intetesting options to invest at the start, making this building very situational. (I apologise for bad language, I'm really rusty with that).
I've always used the gene clinics as my primary amenities solution. The pop growth boost is just a nice bonus. I'm definitely not a min-max player, though.
This morning I was watching one of your other recent video's and I was thinking what about Gene clinics? I will ask about them in a few comments and see if get a lucky response. And here is a whole video on them before I even got around to it! I saw it and was like what? Wow!
I commit the cardinal sin of building a gene clinic on my homeworld because it's usually an ecumenopolis and stacking the pop growth bonuses makes me happy
You didn't consider one thing in your gene clinic-holotheater comparison: holotheaters provide two entertainer jobs, both producing 10 amenities, but you don't have to employ both of them. The goal with amenities isn't to boost amenities sky high to get extra stability, rather it's to maintain above zero amenities to avoid the negative stability (which ramps up much faster). By going with entertainers you need half as many pops working amenity jobs than with medical workers. If you build your amenity building at 20 pops, one pop is 5% of the planet's total workforce. Because of how early game advantages and disadvantages compound in Stellaris, this one pop or 5% of a planet's workforce in the early game is more valuable than the extra pop or two in the midgame The difference isn't massive, I admit, but from a purely min-maxing perspective gene clinics are still probably not the way to go. Most of us don't min-max perfectly anyways so I'd say use gene clinics or theaters based on what you prefer rather than what's more optimal
Yes, but if you don't take both entertainer jobs, you don't have a stability advantage over gene clinics. Which means you don't have an output advantage. Which strikes me as the least attractive of the three options.
@@shawngillogly6873 The stability advantage is smaller than the job output you lose from the amenity worker. 10 extra amenities from an entertainer on a 20 pop planet gives you around 10 happiness, which is 6 stability or around 3.5% pop output, and the 5 amemities from a health care worker means around 1.8% bonus output, while if the popnwas working on something else it would increase the output by around 5.5%
But the point is in trade builds you tend to have massive amounts of unity and amenities, so the entertainer becomes unatractive after very early game. You're not looking for small ball conquest of neighbours, but to develop a solid base and tech to set up exclaves and take advantage of inevitable opportunities. What Montu calculated is exactly how I used them, providing amenities to get through to improved capital buildings, later redeveloping was always viable eg) Galactic stock exchange. They added habitability bonus for 3.0.3, in a recent Doomsday start that helped productivity on a mining world where I had to use Tombworlders, my plan to mine with bots changed because I decided to change to spiritualist with Old Gods event due to my empire's situation. Optimising the way most min-max people do, would have been a much worse strategic decision as being the solid patient but powerful friendly empire, meant I collected many voluntary protectorates, some graduating to vassals as I supported them without upsetting any trade partners. The approach gains a lot of victory points without adding to pop count or micro and make it easier to be the dominant crisis killer
@@exantiuse497 The habitability can gear the whole planet with an extra amenity worker, the pop comes not only in 19 years but sooner, so much of the time you are NOT down. Furthermore the diminishing utility of extra resources that perhaps you cannot store, makes an alternative specialist job more attractive. You may want more pops to resettle/emigrate from mature colonies a holo-theatre doesn't help there
Don't forget an upgraded one adds +25% adding that to a ecumoplious which already has a pop growth of +50% becomes +75% in addition to other modifiers.
I just fumble my way through this game in some vain hope that something will be right somewhere. :D Damn you Stellaris for making an electrical engineer feel like a complete imbecile!
@@MultiJaran Yeah, that's one of the most important things about this channel to understand. Everything Montu says about the game is based around a fast paced ruthless multiplayer scene played on a knife edge, which is very detached from the way that over 95% of players actually experience the game. The stuff he's saying here about gene-clinics (pros and cons) does still apply, since the amount of early game resources you get from not building them, could well be the determining factor in your empires expansion, but at the same time, their long term benefits are still plenty viable too if you're not expecting the game to be decided/over by year 50. Looking for sweet spot moments to use them such as laid out here, does seem like good policy though.
@M J Wow there, I never said I hated min-maxers, I just find them hilarious, and unlikely, as I play modded, and AI has troubles with that no matter what
I like gene clinics especially on the planets that have clone vats or if I’m playing a budding species. It really depends on if I want robots or clones. It should be pointed out that clone vats don’t require a worker which can offset one of the medical worker jobs.
I agree that medical workers are better than entertainers. Here's the thing, who uses entertainers? I can't remember the last time I built a holo-theater.
Yep, this correct imo. Gene clinics are the best way to make up for an amenities shortfall between capital upgrades - very specific windows of usefulness. The old analysis of 50 years for ROI was not only mathematically incorrect but also quite shallow because it ignored the compounding benefits of getting pops earlier - a catch up mechanic. It is important to point out that gene clinics are less useful on worlds where the habitability is above 95% (due to techs or traits). You can micro holo theatre workers to only have one job, but that's a lot of hassle. Really enjoying your videos, Montu. Keep up the good work!
The teaching point is the increased pop growth because of improved hab. This kind of thing is why I go Robust all the time with Evolutionary mastery which then combines with the hab+ advances really can add up and this means a cheaper, happier, more growth friendly empire. I always value society research as much as the other two fields, where it seems the general focus is on Physics and Engineering. Also, why I like A. Monuments. One thing that could come with hiring leaders on planets or even like it is now - weight traits from leaders in pool based on the presence of certain kind of leaders - for example: Motes, Alloys - give a weight to Material trait leaders. Gene clinics - biology.
I've used them for years, on every planet. So I'm slightly bummed I've been out of the loop on that one. I'm all about pop growth I'll take it whenever you put it in front of me, its a real problem.... Great vids it's nice to learn in an efficient manor!
I agree with the conclusion you come to here, but I feel like the internet focusing ONLY on the time it takes to replace the worker population is flawed, as an increase in growth rate on the planet causes a pop to spawn earlier than a planet that doesn't have the growth rate increase. IE 3.3 growth rate gets a pop in 31 months (at the old 100 = pop), while a growth rate of 3.0 takes 34 months - this means you have a pop working for 4 months on a planet with a clinic, while an empire that doesn't build one that does not. This still does not warrant an early building of them, but I have not seen this considered.
Usually one of my go to strategies is stacking pop growth modifiers along side bonus science modifiers to outpace other empires. So building gene clinics to that end once they become available makes sense even if the individual bonus isn't some game breaking meta setting amount.
Been using them with clones vats and I am forced to build habitat to store my pops. At this point its absurd how much pop I am spawning throughout my empire. My economy is literally exploding because of it and I am forced to pause the game if I want to spend resources as fats as I produced them. First time I put them on every planet with a planetoid budding species and it actually works very very well but it is longterm benefits. Now I have my first Wide and Tall build and I am starting to lose track of things x)
Montu, I've been playing with catalytic processing with livestock worlds. I threw in trade habitats with merchants for consumer goods and energy credits. My economy runs on food and trade alone. It takes a lot of the worry about minerals out.
I swear to fking god lol at least one of you three came to your bloody senses.... I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR THE PAST YEAR! every time I watch one of your, stefen anons or Aspec's videos that mention this kind of thing I leave a comment mentioning that the gene clinic is actually good! no one bloody listened! I am just glad one of you finally came to your senses and looked at it the right way! as the arguably best source of amenities rather than pure pop growth.
For me I have been using them when playing on low habitability planets. I play Lithoids often with origins like Shattered ring so inhabit low hab worlds often. Gene clinics are giving you amenities and habitability as well as pop growth, and on low hab worlds you will have problems with amenities and stability early. This solves the problem and gives a boost to productivity and growth speed.
Btw, after federations update there exist a very good possibility to growing in some type of empires.I didn't see anyone talking about it. The essence is this - with a transit node, which increases the likelihood of automatic migration, you can make one system with, say, 7 or 9 planets on which you can build habitats to use it as an "incubator", thanks to which all other colonies will have % bonuses from the increase due to this very migration, without the need to conclude pacts. This works excellently on machine empires, less effectively on synthetic empires, and closes this circle of the hive mind. All three have one feature - The collection of the population, which is practically impossible to limit during the game, since modifiers work weaker on it than on natural increments. Don't even test ordinary empires with bio, they are as weak as possible in this regard. (A translator was used, I apologize for the verbal errors.)
Don't skip over that alloy foundries have an upkeep of 12 minerals and the maintainence. The gene clinc had some consumer goods upkeep so relative to current and future market diff between CG vs minerals needs to be taken into account.
Every new colony I build, I usually build an energy nexus first then a gene clinic second, then move on from there whatever is needed. Partly because they're useful for expanding colonies, but mostly because if I was running a colony on another planet, power and and a medical center would be the first thing's i'd want constructed asap
If you build a gene clinic as your first building and close out the colonist jobs, it’s a better path. Colonists just give amenities and a tiny amount of food, so the pop growth and habitability bonus for medical workers is better, in my opinion. Especially if you’re Egalitarian and can’t relocate pops, it helps get to 10 on a new colony faster. Population growth has more impact in my games, since I disabled the increased cost for pop growth (setting the sliders all the way to the left). Haven’t really had any performance issues even on huge maps with maximum AI empires.
I would like to point out I am new on this game and fandom, I literally got into it a few weeks ago bacause my RUclips recomendations wouldn't stop giving me Stellaris memes. And I find funny the things people discuss, specially gene clinics becsuse in my last unfinished save I basically tried to put Gene Clinics in all my planets after researching when I say how many amenities they add and the pop grow speed was a nice plus
Yes, great! I love to see how I can make gene clinics and temples viable. For the clinics specifically, this does rely on your species having sub 100% habitability on the planet for long term to get the resource benefits which could be a downside. Technology can increase habitability by 20% and give you the ability to teraform. Also you could have an adaptable species or go cybernetic. There's a lot of factors that could push you to 100% habitability before late game and then you would be sacrificing the amenities you get from the hollow theater for the extra pop growth.
There is also more value to pop growth, than having one more pop 16 years in. As you get every pop a bit sooner, meaning a few extra months of reasources which add up.
I agree. The "it takes so long to get more pops, while you pay 2 specialists (and 2 CGs) for growth" complaint somewhat forgets that medical workers have more outputs than just the pop growth. In fact I've even used gene clinics back in 2.8, before they recieved extra habitability (and organic pop assembly) for quite the same reason: You had to get to 40 instead of 25 pops for the Level 2 capital, and were practically guaranteed to run into negative amenities before that if you didn't either build Holotheatres, Gene Clinics, or mass Clerks. Out of the 3, Gene Clinics seemed to be the most valuable to me.
I also think the pay off time in terms of popcount is slightly off, it probably should be half the usually stated time, as you get all your pops a few months earlier. Another thing to Note is that in early game upkeep can eat most of your production on colonies, so widening the gap can be significant.
I built it when I tried Clone Army first time, as it stabilized the annoying bouncing forward and backward clone production and stabilized the growth with 2 vats to 0.
i just had a game where i built a gene clinic on every colony (and then I upgraded them). it was very successful and made a very large empire. personally, I don't see the pops transitioning from workers to medical specialists to be a bad thing. my economy is already in a large surplus. lowering the unemployment rate was my main priority and if I can increase the growth rate even better. i tried to build a robot assembly gene clinic and holo theatre on every world which made for a very fast-growing and stable planets
me, sitting in a corner as a nuclear exchange occurs over gene clinics being good or bad, building gene clinics everywhere I physically can: "... They're bad?"
I use 'em. At the beginning, your habitability growth on non home worlds is always a disadvantage and you need amenities too. The +5 amenities is great. The 10% growth speed plus habitability bonus, and amenities always made it a no brainer for me... Holotheaters are lots of amenities, but... Gene Clinics are great off world colonies.
Would it not be more efficient to build the holo-theater and only employ 1 pop as an entertainer? Yes, no habitability bonus, but you get that 'spare pop' 16 years earlier. (I am too lazy to math this though.)
The same argument can be made for gene clinic -- you also only need one pop working it to negate the amenities malus in most cases. You can generate amenities in alternative ways (ie, artisan Art Monuments, Luxury residences, etc). Normal empires are in general not really reliant on amenities generators as much as gestalts.
My opinion on most modifiers is dependent on how many can stacked at a certain point in the game. If you have +40% to growth speed another 10% is only worth 7.1%. So the real answer is, it depends. Depends on how many growth modifiers you have, if you need more habitability, if you have nothing better for that building slot, if you need more amenities and so on.
I am pretty new to this game and just used one on each planet to maximise my pop growth,I did not even realise it gave amenities as well. I will stop using them as a default first pick and now try to think about when to use them. If you play Stellaris you cannot be bad at maths but I am sure glad there is Montu to do the heavy strategic thinking for me and also show the maths as well.
I like to think that I invest pops to get pops out of it. Because when that planet is developed, is swap the gene clinic for something else and that's it. There are times in Stellaris where you can spare a few pops and if you can you can prepare for times where every pop counts. Also, that habitability increase reduces amenities usage and with a high amount of pops on the planet, this can get whole pops of your amenities work load.
The main issue is simply the COMPOUNDING EFFECT which is the strongest force in the universe (as Einstein claimed lol!)! It's far better to get the bonuses/materials immediately and compound their use than having an extra pop in 50 or so years. By bonuses I mean for example getting unity early as it also has a scaling factor. Faster unity = faster production/stability/habitability bonuses etc.
I didn't even know gene modification was a thing until it came up as a tech.. Just a few years after some humans on one of my colonies declared themselves "super human". Its safe to say that I fully embraced these new supes and immediately began improving them even further as soon as I was able to. I've now got a second super human colony on the way and I've managed to remove every malus the original humans suffered from. I'm wondering if I can "upgrade" humanity further by combining cybernetics with my new gmo pops
I've been using Gene clinics recently and I'd say it seems to do pretty good. In my current playthrough I'm not going playing biological but what I did was dip my toes on "Flesh is Weak" and call it a day. Whenever I colonize a planet I build a commercial zone, gene clinic, robot production facilities, and administrative offices along with a building specialized for that planet and some specialized tiles to go with that building and let it grow on its own.
I agree with your reasoning. I have long considered gene clinics to be a better choice than a holo-theatre - you generally don't need the unity from the holo-theatre, and even though the gene clinic itself provides fewer amenities, it is usually enough, and it has the other bonuses as well. I have always shrugged at all these people who say gene clinics are a total waste.
I have actually used these in a different way. I actually replace colonist jobs with gene clinic jobs when I have the chance. At 1-4 pops on a planet, I go with 1 energy district, 1 alloy or CG building, or research, depending on what the planet will be, maybe even admin. once the fifth pop is ready to spawn, I build a gene clinic instead, forcing the next pop to take a gene clinic job instead of a colonist job. Colonists don't produce unity, they just produce amenities, food, and armies, and they only produce 4 amenities base, so since you actually need amenities to balance out your growing colonies from 5-10 pops, its actually better to spend say 200-400 minerals on a building you can replace with something later once admins are installed at 10 pops.
Building gene clinics early on the new colonies is generally nice (unless early game year or on your capital) bc more colony population makes your pops more productive, even those pops does not have anything to do! unless your civics is corvee system or something that moving pops doesn't cost influence anyway, more pops make your pops more productive by percentage bonus buildings which only unlocked from certain pops cap.
Great video about how math calculations can go wrong and META-out a building that can actually do something good. Even more important: do the math on how much sooner you'll have a new pop every time you gain one with the Gene Clinic, vs. without. That's the math that actually counts. The building might be replaced, or upgraded later. But that does not mean that it is useless. 👍 Good maths
I’ve been playing since the early game (stopped after a while because I want to get a better computer before I go back) and I always used gene clinics because they used to help make the planets more habitable (or something to that effect). I stopped using them after I figured out they stopped doing what they used to do.
With the entertainer comparison, what if you left one of the entertainer jobs empty (or if you're in a situation where you need either 2 entertainers or 4 medical workers)? Seems to me like the comparison looks more favourable to the medical workers because the amenities from the 2nd entertainer have very strongly diminishing returns, a comparison to 1 entertainer+1 technician might be more accurate.
I honestly thought everyone knew this and agreed this is how you're "supposed" to use holo theaters (restricting one entertainer job) but you're the only one mentioning it here so now Im not so sure lmao.
he also left out that if u dont ignore required growth scaling it would take 41 not 32 years to pay out (in his scenario in a real empire it would never pay out) and that in that time he would need to employ 1 additional entertainers on top of the medical workers
![Quando Rondo - Grow Up [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8zFnCg3BO4Q/mqdefault.jpg)
I just use Gene Clinics because I'm simply too used to using them
I use them until pops hit around 30ish for the 10% bonus. I'm also really bad at the game lol
I use them instead of entertainers. Pop growth + amenities. I’ve never understood why you tubers hate them so much. It’s not the first thing I build, but once I need amenities, it’s the building of choice for me.
@@OnlineKenji
It’s my second choice normally, first I do trade centers, for the trade value which gives me consumer goods and energy, then I use that to fund later gene clinics with a higher population
@@OnlineKenji I normally build entertainers because I swap out the 5 clerks for 1 entertainer to maintain my amenities. But looking at this video, I think I'll evaluate when to build gene clinic a bit more seriously versus entertainers.
@@dustinsmith4184 same
Lmao I had no idea the fandom thought they sucked. I always rush anything that gives me pop growth in any capacity.
Same. I have 1.9k hours in Stellaris and I built them first thing everywhere because I getNeuron activation when I see pop growth speed.
I do feel kinda stupid after this video. But only kinda.
@@transfem-oni-empress pops are king now and the faster they are pumped out and migrate, the faster you become op
I rush them because monkey brain go brrrr
Same!
I always rush robotics and gene clinics
And often build BOTH on new colonies
@@transfem-oni-empress Same 1961 hours, mostly in multiplayer, and I always rush every bonus to pop growth I can get my hands on. People saying Gene clinics suck are super weird and don't seem to be playing the same game..
Entire community: So, let me get this straight, you think gene clinics are good unironically?
Me: I do, and I'm tired of pretending they're not.
I'd use them more if they were available as a starter tech instead of holo-theatres.
lol!
Genetic Ascension as well. I don’t want to be a damn robot!
@@OnlineKenji Yes. Literally no one talks about this, not even in this video.
It says this if you read the tooltip, but gene clinics also boost clone vat production in addition to the pop growth bonus. With 4 clinic specialists, you get +0.6 monthly pop assembly. I guess it's because of a combination of people already not liking the gene clinics and therefore never using them and reading this, combined with synthetic ascension being generally viewed by the community as the meta strategy.
Which is double odd since psychic gale speed corvettes (mid tech) or destroyers (late tech) will massacre any robit empire fleet.
Also you can get full psychic leaders with only tradition tier 2, conversely you only get the cyborgs at tier 2 (after a not cheap engineering project). And need tier 3 to synth. (after another.) That's a lot of unity for early/mid game.
So, quick summary: build gene clinics if your habitability isnt 100% and you need some amenities for your pops. This is the conclusion I get from the video and it sounds about right. tx for the video
"If you're running a trade based economy you will lose out on 3% stability for not having the extra amenities" Dude if you're running a trade based economy you have ALL the amenities.
If your economy isn't based on clerks that are generating more credits than a Dyson Sphere, you're playing Stellaris wrong.
Not true, you may need to top up amenities, the option is between using a lot of clerks (5 IIRC), 2 medics or a holo theatre. The entertainers produce a tiny amount of unity which is insignificant if you have trade policy producing unity.
Lem's changed things a lot though as Mercantile allows extra merchants and an insane amount of trade value with Urban planet setting.
XD yep infinity Power!
@@rafaelazevedo5904 Nobody cares for clerks, Merchants are the way to go. A BIG difference.
@@Spectification not based
Gene Clinics are good because they're hospital and it makes me happy that my people are happy they get the medical service they deserve. :D
Be happy my people, be happy and healthyyyyy!!!
Mvp stellaris player.
Space Bernie Sanders.
Won't be happy after their hospital is cracked by a min-maxer
fanatic egalitarian xenophile
@@hodarov1564 ya dont need medical treatments if you are dead.
And i for one have never heard a dead person complain about being unhappy
I've been playing an Inward Perfection game, focusing on getting every pop growth speed buff in the game, and have been really happy with Gene Clinics.
I made an inward perfection avian race (Holy Coop Empire) and had the life seeded origin in a recent game, used gene clinics to great effect. I was lucky I had another gaia world and the rubicator event nearby so had three planets pretty early. Three +20 planets and insane pop growth.
Psionic ascension and Zroni precursor btw. The rare type of game when everything works out well.
@@kevinwilson455 Until the crisis spawns inbetween your tech world and your best defensive position... god I hate the contingency...
I always used them because I didn't "know any better". Now I use them because I like them, but I've at least been able to let go of the need for one on each planet I colonize
I still build them everywhere honestly. Not really because they are better as I even build them on Gaia. They just look nice there in the number 1 slot followed by Resource improvement then Alloy/Consumer then the rest. Also RP wise it's probably good to have hospitals on all the planets :P
@@redholm Hey, Gene clinics should be followed by Robomaker Hut! What kind of sci-fi game is it without robo-waifus?
@@1kvolt1978 Personally I like having only 1 species. It's just so much less to deal with with my genetically modified species :P
@@tuskular That is often one of my main reasons. Sure it takes ages to pay of. But my games usually go at least 200 years so I have 60 years to wait.
I like your funny numbers, alien man.
Something everybody seems to be ignoring is that the extra pops at the end are nice but they aren't the only bonus the pop growth speed increase helps. Every pop is going to be coming in cumulatively faster than your opponents. Your first one is coming ten percent faster than theirs is. Your second is coming in twenty percent faster. And so on. This means that you have pops sooner which also means more resources.
Meanwhile they have more resources than you until that population difference kicks in. He didn't ignore it he actually pointed it out early on in the video.
@@MultiTurbonoob they have more unity. That's it. That's what he showed. In the time it takes to get the extra pops you lose out on less than 1000 unity.
@@alistairgrey5089 do you play multiplayer? Have any gene clinc builds that work against good players or high level ai?
Way to difficult to try to use gene clincs when early game matters most
@@loafofbread9400 the gene clinic isn't meant for end game. It's meant for the late part of the early game. You put it in when you need the amenities but not the unity and then replace it with the holo theater when it's not producing enough amenities. That way you get the bonuses and only miss out on a small amount of unity.
I always used gene clinics as replacements for holotheaters just out of preference. I figured if I had to waste pops on amenities I might as well also get new pops sooner. it's nice to finally be somewhat vindicated.
the game has so many options for achieving unity and amenities that Holo Theaters have never been considered a useful building by me. even more so now, for example, you are the first to build a persistence tree, but only until the fortress generates 3 unity points, then you go to the diplomacy tree so that the amassades also generate unity, this means that you will unlock the appropriate ability as the fourth, i.e. you will meet 80% 1-3 other empires, (in a game with 10 or less AI it is not optimal because half of them may not want embassies but 10+ is already good) when you already have two ways to unity or choose the 3 tradition tree that you want to complete or better yet you end up diplomacy or tenacity. Of course, if you plan to acquire one from the fortresses, it is worth unlocking all places for buildings quickly.
same. Was about to post this very thing haha.
he failed to mention a lot of math which means u get ur pops back in 41 years (in his example in reality u will literally never get those pops back because of required growth scaling taking into account ur entire empire and logistical growth ceiling) and will be at -12 amenities ( as opposed to 0 if u made a holo theater) by that time requiring another 2 pops to work amenities jobs which mean u will have wasted 4 pops on amenities rather than 2 to get 2 aditonal pops which means u will have done literally nothing but miss out on a bunch of unity
if u like how they look on ur planets or wanna see big numbers on the pop growth thingy go for them but they are literally just never worth it
@@linkhidalgogato Could you not just replace the gene clinic with a holo theater once it outlives it's usefuleness? I like them for setting up colonies, and then switching to holo theaters when they grow big. By that point the additional mineral cost is rarely felt.
Waiting tens of years for the extra pop is a bit misleading though, isn't it? Since the effect actually gives each of your pops slightly earlier, therefore you are already getting benefit way before the "full" pop is ready. I might be biased though, since it's a race to populate the galaxy!
I agree with this. It's effectively giving you the pop earlier, the benefit being the resources that pop generates before it otherwise would have existed, at the cost of the gene clinic
Sure.. but that pop you use to run the gene clinic could've been doing something else.
So effectively, you're putting yourself 2 pops down with a gene clinic. It then takes decades of 10% increased pop growth to get 2 pops more than you would have if you didn't have that gene clinic.
@@RigelOrionBeta You aren't because medical workers can be disabled at any minute. You can just disable those jobs and force them to work others, if you really need them.
What they are doing, in the mean time, is rapidly increasing the rate at which the colony gets set up.
@@RigelOrionBeta That's true, but the additional amenities means more stability, and more stability means more resources, right? So there's a bit of compensation in that regard.
It does seem that gene clinics have pretty narrow usage though.
@@RigelOrionBeta If you're choosing between gene clinics, holo theater for amenities isn't this argument a moot point?
4:12 - It's worth noting that calculating the 'pop benefit' of gene clinics that way underestimates its actual benefit, because 'the pop' doesn't magically appear in 293 months.
Instead, 'the pop' comes out piecemeal over that entire period, as each pop you produce comes out 'just a little bit sooner,' and this earlier appearance is 'part of the pop.'
In simplified numbers - if normal growth is 3(month)/100(per pop)=33.33(months per pop) then gene clinics turn that to 3.375/100=29.629. This is a difference of ~3.7 months.
By the time it's 'calculated to yield benefit' (293 months) it will have 'worked' in total for about half the time it was 'in production.'
In simplified numbers;
Normal growth: 33.33, 66.66, 99.99, 133.33, 166.66, 199.99.
Gene Clinic gro: 29.63, 59.26, 88.89, 118.52, 148.15, 177.78.
As you can see, the pop 'shows up and works' for ~1x3.7 months the first time, 2x the second time, 3x the third time, and so on until it's 'working all the time' when 'it's done.'
Wow, that was truly eye-opening.
I think I have despite the buffs actually build gene clinics less in 3.0 + than in 2.8, because the upgraded building has less jobs and you have less building slots on a planet.
But you've just convinced me to still build them on most bigger sized planets (I've only built them on planets over size 20 and Ringworlds in 3.0), maybe on every planet over size 17 now.
The issue is, until then you have 2 pops that could be making alloys or science that are making more pops.
That is actually a good point, like compound interest. Invest two pops early on, then for 3.7 months there is a new pop with 3.7 months of production before the pop grows elsewhere. Then in 30 months (spitballing here) with another pop for 7.6 months worth of production before anyone else.
About 9 pops grow during the 293 months it takes to get the bonus pop, and during that time there is an increasing amount of extra production from both having pops months earlier than anywhere else, and also the planet
habitability and stability production bonus on top of that.
In two 293 months cycles would grow 2 pops extra along with the 18 pops during that time.
While it’s 33 years later, after that point the extra two pops cover the gene clinic jobs. Then another 33 years after would be ahead in pops.
So I guess it takes a while but it grows on ya 😎
Yes this is da way when calculating the value of gene clinics (although the "bonus pop" way of analyzing as done in the vid is a nice bonus feature kinda).
In addition, some empires have a regular pop build speed of up to 7.5 per month, where the additional pop build speed of 10% would make 0.75, also we could boost the other build speed by using like clone vets and these hive farms from 8 to 8.8 so it does make a diffrence, especially in the late game. Actually these buildings make my empires a lot stronger pop wise in the late game and are a big reason, why many of my planets have up to 150 or 200 pops
Another case for gene clinics, is if you're playing as a species with a large pop growth malus: negating a malus is much stronger than gaining a bonus.
see: lithoids
Not true. =10% is +10% no matter your bonuses.
@@RUclipsAccountMan going from -75% to -50% doubles the value. Assuming a base of 100, you've gone from 25 to 50.
It's like how +1 makes a huge difference if you're starting from a value of 1, but won't change much if you're starting from 1000.
@@Daemonworks +25% is +25% no matter if you're going from -75 to -50 or +50 to +75.
@@RUclipsAccountMan Yes. But also no.
What most people care about is the final result, and value bonuses based on how much they change the final result.
Going from a final value of 25 to a final value of 50 is a huge increase. Going from 100 to 125 is nice. Going from 200 to 225 is fine. Going from 1025 to 1050 is meh.
Any given source of +10% production is going to be worth the exact same amount in absolute value, but if you've already got +1000%, going to +1010% is going to be barely noticeable unless you're balanced on a knife's edge.
i just belive that a strong public health system is important for a functioning society. I also run utopian living standards the moment i can afford them.
What sells these now is its only 2 workers instead of 3 (like I'm experiencing still playing 3.0.4). The tug-of-war between having nothing but specialists and no workers always hard, but taking 3 workers made it really bad. The hab + amenities bonus also sell these.
I thought it was always 2 jobs?
The upgraded building however adds only 2 instead of 3 pre 3.0.
Pops are power thus I build them with cloning vats after all any bonus to pop growth is a good bonus.
I've always been a Gene Clinics stan so I'm glad to see other people think that they're worth.
Do you think you could do something on uh, early militarization? I've literally never seen a guide on how to build up a military in Stellaris, people are just like "oh by now you should have X fleet power".
Open Shipyard menu, click on button with ship name on it, wait till ship finishes been built --> repeat --> profit! :)
You mean that you want to steal population and planets instead of building them?
Well, there is a unity upgrade you can get if you are xenoohobe which allows you to steal population from bombarded planets.
I would build one foundry on the start planet and then if you can affort it from the basic resources on the colonys to.
Look at the special buffs and build able sectors a planet has.
Some are better for farming or mining then for production.
I would go full mineral production at the start until you have roughly +100 /+150 a month.
Then you can build special resources like consumer good factorys.
Do not forget to have some generator too since moving ships and army's cost energy!
Administration is not as important unless you want to play tall.
Yust get 5 science ships out and look for good systems.
If it comes to the worst you can always become a vassal of another empire and build up from inside.
Something I've been told is to always go above your fleet limit. Keep going until you cant sustain it because that's exactly what the A.I does. If you ever noticed a serious difference in strength between you and the A.I that might be why.
tech rush and focus on alloys. If you want to go even faster then you can start committing a cheeky little bit of human rights abuses in order to push your pops to make stuff faster.
I always put those on every single world (usually 10 or 20 planets in a game) and I always end up with more pops and more overall output overtime than the people I play with
You said i would probably disagree on this video...
İ dont know how to.. you ran numbers great.. HOW CAN I DISAGREE?
one thing you missed tho i think you should run numbers on them also
Upgraded versions of gene clinics, holo-theaters-temples for late game math.
Also temples give you spiritualist ethitcs attraction, meaning pops will be more alligned to factions that are happy, thus boosting happiness, boosting stability, boosting resource output.
Using spiritualism to get influence and stability, niiiiice
@@PyrrhicPax Have faith in the emperor!
@@TheReaper569 Also how does budding + clone vats effect the maths
he didnt run the numbers great tho he ignored the whole thing where for every 4 pops in ur empire it takes 1 additional growth to make a pop which means that even in his scenario of a 1 planet empire with 20 pops it would take 41 years (at max logistical growth) not 32 to get ur 2 pops
and that doesnt even mean anything because if u have say idk more planets and pops like a normal empire and take into account that pop growth is capped by the carry capacity of the planet it will never pay itself off
and even that means nothing because in the 41 years it takes to get ur 2 pops u will have also grown 20 additional pops putting ur planet at -12 amenities rather than 0 if u had just built a holo theater which means ur gonna need a holo theater on top of the gene clinic anyways
@@linkhidalgogato what about budding
I've always liked them, though I tend to chase stacking percentile bonuses more than anything. Also I hate building entertainers. >.> I always thought a good 'fix' for them would allow the growth modifier to be lowered to something like 4% per worker, but allow the bonus to scale with Stability and Specialist modifiers (like from Meritocracy or Egalitarian).
I dont care for entertainers unless I have the militarist ethics that makes them duelist. You still get unity and amenities but you also get naval capacity
This is why I love your work - you always dive deep in the math and approach stuff in-depth.
Thanks for the support! I'm glad you enjoy my videos
as long as u ignore required growth scaling then yes this can certainly be considered a deep dive into the math if u dont then its extremely shallow and also if u dont ignore it it works out that as we all already knew gene clinics are just useless
Inward Perfection with the Decadent Lifestyle civic plus budding traits on two species makes for an incredible build already, but throwing in gene clinics as well as entertainers is just mindblowing
Gene Clinics: not always good, but better than Holo-Theatres in many cases
unless your a pleasure seeker where each entertainer grants 1% growth speed
@@MrBlackrapier 1% pop growth speed is arguably one of the biggest jokes Paradox has ever made. Medical workers give 5% growth speed each.
Duelists are worthwhile, entertainers with pleasure seekers or corporate hedonism really isn't.
2 naval cap compared to 1% pop growth
is better that a hole theatres in any cases tho? considering that by the time the pop groth pays itself off (if it ever does which it wont because he failed to mention that require pop growth scales with how many pops u have and that it takes so long ur planets carry capacity will max out in almost every case before it pays itself off) u will be at -12 amenities instead of 0 if u had just used the holo theater which means ur gonna need a holo theatres anyways
@@linkhidalgogato Just move 12 pops to your ecumenopolis. or build a numistic shrine
For the people wondering why gene clinics were considered bad: historically, robot assembly plants were seen as better for pop growth, as they provide 2 pop assembly per month.
gene clinics ARE bad because u get literally nothing from them (after they added required growth scaling and logistical growth ceeling)
they used to be bad because they took too long to pay out and yes certainly far longer than robot assembly plants
btw... There is Budding species trait and Permanent employment civic for Megacorp. These give additional assembly of organic pops (PE gives ability to build zombie pops at a specific building), and... gene clinics works on them. Unfortunately, all assembled pops will be zombies, but honestly, worker pop without an upkeep at all is a worker pop without an upkeep at all
Having clone vats assemble pops instead of increasing your pop growth was a major nerf to biological ascension. You used to be able to assemble robots at the same time.
@@CountArtha yeah, gene vats too, tho gene clinics increase budding speed
@@shooey-mcmoss
Budding?
I've been of the mind that they were fantastic because they have amenities and pop growth, pop growth being what I thought was the best stat on the game, because more pops equals more production in the long run.
I cannot wait for Montu to crush my mindset like a bug and bring me to the light.
The reason to go entertainers over medical workers is not to get excess amenities with the entertainers, but to dedicate fewer pops to generating the same amenities.
The question is if your planet needs the extra amenities and if those extra amenities will be enough alone. Building a gene clinic and a holotheater is going to be better than 2 holotheaters.
@@jamesb3497 The only way "those extra amenities will be enough alone" is if you need 5 or fewer additional amenities, so it would only require one job either way. But if you only need 5 additional amenities, you can build luxury residences and get the amenities for zero jobs.
Montu. Wow. Just looked at your subscriber numbers - that's huge growth. Good job.
Thanks man! Its kind of surreal!
It's all due to the Gene Clinics. :P
@@TheRealWormbo 🤣🤣🤣🤣
He has rapid breeders enabled on his RUclips channel.
@@jamiegladwin AND his "Deep Connections" ruler trait: +1 monthly influence.
I generally use gene clinics more often than robot assembly plants, as I’m not a fan of managing multiple species, especially because it’s rare that you’ll get a situation where robots can resettle. This is especially problematic when you start dealing with habitats. And I’ve always gone with biological evolution, so I sometimes use clone vats later on to grow faster, as they produce 3 pop assembly as opposed to 2 with a robot assembly plant.
Edit: with trade builds, you also shouldn’t need to worry about amenities, as the jobs that produce it generally also give amenities (I believe merchants give 5 amenities while clerks give 2).
I will admit I'm not the most experienced with bio path but doesn't it force you to micromanage an insane number of species? Like don't you end up with about 10 different pop templates if you are doing it remotely optimally? Surely If you just use one template you are kind of bypassing the point and the bonuses are strictly significantly lower than the synth or even the psy path.
I love mercantile merchants. I find myself building commercial zones instead of other amenity options nowadays, even when im not doing a trade focused empire
@@jamiefenwick8359 I mean, I usually go the biological route as a hive mind. And usually I just terraform everything into a hive world, modify my three most numerous species and then call it a day. Simple as.
The real reason to play xenophobe is that you only have to deal with 1 species
@@jamiefenwick8359 Tomb world preference + robust + gene clinics/habitability techs = 100% habitability everywhere. There are a few other ways to get universal habitability, but this is my favorite.
For consistent tomb world preference you need:
At least 4 main species Pops on a tomb world colony,
Main Species has below 40% Habitability on the colony,
Main Species has below 50% Happiness on the colony.
OR just have a science ship patrol in and out of a black hole system till you detect the horizon signal.
FINALLY! Someone else who gets it. I've been hearing the Gene Clincs are bad argument for a LONG time now with the reason being that it takes to long to get the pops. But I've been using them for a long time as part of my primary strategy for the very reasons you mention in this video. You have to produce amenities anyway so why not get extra pop growth at the same time, especially when pops are power.
I felt similar, especially after PDX added Budding trait or going with genetic ascencion. But there is one issue with holotheaters - you get enough amenietes with one job (I just treat them as obligatory maintrence rather than unity production and with free building slots even going with residences), so if you micro that really hard, clinic gets it's payoff much later, (not 16 but ~40 years). Moreover, before glandural modification, this habitability option have impact on conquered worlds while playing xenophobic empire (because of rulers impact and stability issue). I would use clinic earlygame, but on the other hand, biological reaserch have more intetesting options to invest at the start, making this building very situational.
(I apologise for bad language, I'm really rusty with that).
Also pops working specialist jobs generate a little bit of passive trade value, so using pops to grow more pops is slightly improved by this.
I've always used the gene clinics as my primary amenities solution. The pop growth boost is just a nice bonus. I'm definitely not a min-max player, though.
I've always used these as pseudo-holotheatres. Good to know I'm not alone in thinking it's a good trade.
I love your videos. You need a small outro, tho. I keep thinking my connection gives out when I listen to them at work and they end abruptly.
Never thought Gene Clinics were bad because they upped my pop production and amenities.
This morning I was watching one of your other recent video's and I was thinking what about Gene clinics? I will ask about them in a few comments and see if get a lucky response. And here is a whole video on them before I even got around to it! I saw it and was like what? Wow!
I commit the cardinal sin of building a gene clinic on my homeworld because it's usually an ecumenopolis and stacking the pop growth bonuses makes me happy
I always build a gene clinic and robot assembly plant as the first 2 buildings on my worlds for maximum pop growth
This video can’t stop my addiction to gene clinics!
You didn't consider one thing in your gene clinic-holotheater comparison: holotheaters provide two entertainer jobs, both producing 10 amenities, but you don't have to employ both of them. The goal with amenities isn't to boost amenities sky high to get extra stability, rather it's to maintain above zero amenities to avoid the negative stability (which ramps up much faster).
By going with entertainers you need half as many pops working amenity jobs than with medical workers. If you build your amenity building at 20 pops, one pop is 5% of the planet's total workforce. Because of how early game advantages and disadvantages compound in Stellaris, this one pop or 5% of a planet's workforce in the early game is more valuable than the extra pop or two in the midgame
The difference isn't massive, I admit, but from a purely min-maxing perspective gene clinics are still probably not the way to go. Most of us don't min-max perfectly anyways so I'd say use gene clinics or theaters based on what you prefer rather than what's more optimal
Yes, but if you don't take both entertainer jobs, you don't have a stability advantage over gene clinics. Which means you don't have an output advantage. Which strikes me as the least attractive of the three options.
@@shawngillogly6873 The stability advantage is smaller than the job output you lose from the amenity worker. 10 extra amenities from an entertainer on a 20 pop planet gives you around 10 happiness, which is 6 stability or around 3.5% pop output, and the 5 amemities from a health care worker means around 1.8% bonus output, while if the popnwas working on something else it would increase the output by around 5.5%
But the point is in trade builds you tend to have massive amounts of unity and amenities, so the entertainer becomes unatractive after very early game.
You're not looking for small ball conquest of neighbours, but to develop a solid base and tech to set up exclaves and take advantage of inevitable opportunities.
What Montu calculated is exactly how I used them, providing amenities to get through to improved capital buildings, later redeveloping was always viable eg) Galactic stock exchange.
They added habitability bonus for 3.0.3, in a recent Doomsday start that helped productivity on a mining world where I had to use Tombworlders, my plan to mine with bots changed because I decided to change to spiritualist with Old Gods event due to my empire's situation.
Optimising the way most min-max people do, would have been a much worse strategic decision as being the solid patient but powerful friendly empire, meant I collected many voluntary protectorates, some graduating to vassals as I supported them without upsetting any trade partners.
The approach gains a lot of victory points without adding to pop count or micro and make it easier to be the dominant crisis killer
@@exantiuse497 The habitability can gear the whole planet with an extra amenity worker, the pop comes not only in 19 years but sooner, so much of the time you are NOT down. Furthermore the diminishing utility of extra resources that perhaps you cannot store, makes an alternative specialist job more attractive.
You may want more pops to resettle/emigrate from mature colonies a holo-theatre doesn't help there
I always thought of the gene clinics as amenities with a pop growth bonus/secondary
Don't forget an upgraded one adds +25% adding that to a ecumoplious which already has a pop growth of +50% becomes +75% in addition to other modifiers.
I have had some whacky +11/Month Ecumenopolis times XD It's very fun to see those numbers go brrrr
I just fumble my way through this game in some vain hope that something will be right somewhere. :D
Damn you Stellaris for making an electrical engineer feel like a complete imbecile!
I always find min-maxers hilarious, I just build them because I look way forward and don't really care about short term :p
I think Montu writes from a competitive perspective. In that environment anything that reduces efficiency is a sure way to lose.
As someone who leans heavily as a roleplayer, minmax shenanigans amuse me as well.
To be fair, short term benefits that are taken advantage of can turn into longer term snowball/higher benefit overall
@@MultiJaran Yeah, that's one of the most important things about this channel to understand. Everything Montu says about the game is based around a fast paced ruthless multiplayer scene played on a knife edge, which is very detached from the way that over 95% of players actually experience the game. The stuff he's saying here about gene-clinics (pros and cons) does still apply, since the amount of early game resources you get from not building them, could well be the determining factor in your empires expansion, but at the same time, their long term benefits are still plenty viable too if you're not expecting the game to be decided/over by year 50. Looking for sweet spot moments to use them such as laid out here, does seem like good policy though.
@M J Wow there, I never said I hated min-maxers, I just find them hilarious, and unlikely, as I play modded, and AI has troubles with that no matter what
i love that image of the alien paramedic holding the human child
The idea for a video.
the top 10 best amenities buildings/jobs.
So housing, clerics, gene clinic, etc.
I like gene clinics especially on the planets that have clone vats or if I’m playing a budding species. It really depends on if I want robots or clones. It should be pointed out that clone vats don’t require a worker which can offset one of the medical worker jobs.
Imagine having an empire without a healthcare system lmaoooo
Same goes with Pop house usage. Everyone bash it yet its amazing if used good
I agree that medical workers are better than entertainers.
Here's the thing, who uses entertainers? I can't remember the last time I built a holo-theater.
Exactly! In the dark grim future there is no time for entertainment when there are enemies all around!
Yep, this correct imo. Gene clinics are the best way to make up for an amenities shortfall between capital upgrades - very specific windows of usefulness. The old analysis of 50 years for ROI was not only mathematically incorrect but also quite shallow because it ignored the compounding benefits of getting pops earlier - a catch up mechanic. It is important to point out that gene clinics are less useful on worlds where the habitability is above 95% (due to techs or traits). You can micro holo theatre workers to only have one job, but that's a lot of hassle. Really enjoying your videos, Montu. Keep up the good work!
Well mind = blown. Thanks for another informative video Montu.
The teaching point is the increased pop growth because of improved hab. This kind of thing is why I go Robust all the time with Evolutionary mastery which then combines with the hab+ advances really can add up and this means a cheaper, happier, more growth friendly empire. I always value society research as much as the other two fields, where it seems the general focus is on Physics and Engineering.
Also, why I like A. Monuments.
One thing that could come with hiring leaders on planets or even like it is now - weight traits from leaders in pool based on the presence of certain kind of leaders - for example: Motes, Alloys - give a weight to Material trait leaders. Gene clinics - biology.
tfw been using gene clinics since the game came out and i don't see myself stopping anytime soon
I've used them for years, on every planet. So I'm slightly bummed I've been out of the loop on that one. I'm all about pop growth I'll take it whenever you put it in front of me, its a real problem.... Great vids it's nice to learn in an efficient manor!
I agree with the conclusion you come to here, but I feel like the internet focusing ONLY on the time it takes to replace the worker population is flawed, as an increase in growth rate on the planet causes a pop to spawn earlier than a planet that doesn't have the growth rate increase. IE 3.3 growth rate gets a pop in 31 months (at the old 100 = pop), while a growth rate of 3.0 takes 34 months - this means you have a pop working for 4 months on a planet with a clinic, while an empire that doesn't build one that does not. This still does not warrant an early building of them, but I have not seen this considered.
Usually one of my go to strategies is stacking pop growth modifiers along side bonus science modifiers to outpace other empires. So building gene clinics to that end once they become available makes sense even if the individual bonus isn't some game breaking meta setting amount.
Been using them with clones vats and I am forced to build habitat to store my pops. At this point its absurd how much pop I am spawning throughout my empire.
My economy is literally exploding because of it and I am forced to pause the game if I want to spend resources as fats as I produced them.
First time I put them on every planet with a planetoid budding species and it actually works very very well but it is longterm benefits.
Now I have my first Wide and Tall build and I am starting to lose track of things x)
Montu, I've been playing with catalytic processing with livestock worlds. I threw in trade habitats with merchants for consumer goods and energy credits. My economy runs on food and trade alone. It takes a lot of the worry about minerals out.
I swear to fking god lol at least one of you three came to your bloody senses.... I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR THE PAST YEAR! every time I watch one of your, stefen anons or Aspec's videos that mention this kind of thing I leave a comment mentioning that the gene clinic is actually good! no one bloody listened! I am just glad one of you finally came to your senses and looked at it the right way! as the arguably best source of amenities rather than pure pop growth.
For me I have been using them when playing on low habitability planets. I play Lithoids often with origins like Shattered ring so inhabit low hab worlds often. Gene clinics are giving you amenities and habitability as well as pop growth, and on low hab worlds you will have problems with amenities and stability early. This solves the problem and gives a boost to productivity and growth speed.
It would be great if Medical Workers also reduced Gene Modification time on the planet they are built on, it would fit the theme too
I build them for roleplay purposes. Like the new world needs a proper hospital to study & deal with all the alien microbes n shit
Btw, after federations update there exist a very good possibility to growing in some type of empires.I didn't see anyone talking about it.
The essence is this - with a transit node, which increases the likelihood of automatic migration, you can make one system with, say, 7 or 9 planets on which you can build habitats to use it as an "incubator", thanks to which all other colonies will have % bonuses from the increase due to this very migration, without the need to conclude pacts. This works excellently on machine empires, less effectively on synthetic empires, and closes this circle of the hive mind. All three have one feature - The collection of the population, which is practically impossible to limit during the game, since modifiers work weaker on it than on natural increments.
Don't even test ordinary empires with bio, they are as weak as possible in this regard.
(A translator was used, I apologize for the verbal errors.)
Don't skip over that alloy foundries have an upkeep of 12 minerals and the maintainence.
The gene clinc had some consumer goods upkeep so relative to current and future market diff between CG vs minerals needs to be taken into account.
Every new colony I build, I usually build an energy nexus first then a gene clinic second, then move on from there whatever is needed. Partly because they're useful for expanding colonies, but mostly because if I was running a colony on another planet, power and and a medical center would be the first thing's i'd want constructed asap
If you build a gene clinic as your first building and close out the colonist jobs, it’s a better path. Colonists just give amenities and a tiny amount of food, so the pop growth and habitability bonus for medical workers is better, in my opinion. Especially if you’re Egalitarian and can’t relocate pops, it helps get to 10 on a new colony faster.
Population growth has more impact in my games, since I disabled the increased cost for pop growth (setting the sliders all the way to the left). Haven’t really had any performance issues even on huge maps with maximum AI empires.
I would like to point out I am new on this game and fandom, I literally got into it a few weeks ago bacause my RUclips recomendations wouldn't stop giving me Stellaris memes.
And I find funny the things people discuss, specially gene clinics becsuse in my last unfinished save I basically tried to put Gene Clinics in all my planets after researching when I say how many amenities they add and the pop grow speed was a nice plus
This is missing the most important reason to build gene clinics: providing healthcare to your colonists.
Yes, great! I love to see how I can make gene clinics and temples viable. For the clinics specifically, this does rely on your species having sub 100% habitability on the planet for long term to get the resource benefits which could be a downside. Technology can increase habitability by 20% and give you the ability to teraform. Also you could have an adaptable species or go cybernetic. There's a lot of factors that could push you to 100% habitability before late game and then you would be sacrificing the amenities you get from the hollow theater for the extra pop growth.
There is also more value to pop growth, than having one more pop 16 years in. As you get every pop a bit sooner, meaning a few extra months of reasources which add up.
I agree.
The "it takes so long to get more pops, while you pay 2 specialists (and 2 CGs) for growth" complaint somewhat forgets that medical workers have more outputs than just the pop growth.
In fact I've even used gene clinics back in 2.8, before they recieved extra habitability (and organic pop assembly) for quite the same reason:
You had to get to 40 instead of 25 pops for the Level 2 capital, and were practically guaranteed to run into negative amenities before that if you didn't either build Holotheatres, Gene Clinics, or mass Clerks.
Out of the 3, Gene Clinics seemed to be the most valuable to me.
I also think the pay off time in terms of popcount is slightly off, it probably should be half the usually stated time, as you get all your pops a few months earlier. Another thing to Note is that in early game upkeep can eat most of your production on colonies, so widening the gap can be significant.
I built it when I tried Clone Army first time, as it stabilized the annoying bouncing forward and backward clone production and stabilized the growth with 2 vats to 0.
i just had a game where i built a gene clinic on every colony (and then I upgraded them). it was very successful and made a very large empire. personally, I don't see the pops transitioning from workers to medical specialists to be a bad thing. my economy is already in a large surplus. lowering the unemployment rate was my main priority and if I can increase the growth rate even better. i tried to build a robot assembly gene clinic and holo theatre on every world which made for a very fast-growing and stable planets
me, sitting in a corner as a nuclear exchange occurs over gene clinics being good or bad, building gene clinics everywhere I physically can: "... They're bad?"
I use 'em. At the beginning, your habitability growth on non home worlds is always a disadvantage and you need amenities too. The +5 amenities is great. The 10% growth speed plus habitability bonus, and amenities always made it a no brainer for me... Holotheaters are lots of amenities, but... Gene Clinics are great off world colonies.
Would it not be more efficient to build the holo-theater and only employ 1 pop as an entertainer? Yes, no habitability bonus, but you get that 'spare pop' 16 years earlier. (I am too lazy to math this though.)
The same argument can be made for gene clinic -- you also only need one pop working it to negate the amenities malus in most cases. You can generate amenities in alternative ways (ie, artisan Art Monuments, Luxury residences, etc). Normal empires are in general not really reliant on amenities generators as much as gestalts.
I recently played with Pleasure Seekers, and was putting two Holo-theaters on every planet and ended up with more pops than I ever had before.
My thoughts exactly, every other youtuber I've seen neglects to take the habitability bonus into account
My opinion on most modifiers is dependent on how many can stacked at a certain point in the game. If you have +40% to growth speed another 10% is only worth 7.1%. So the real answer is, it depends. Depends on how many growth modifiers you have, if you need more habitability, if you have nothing better for that building slot, if you need more amenities and so on.
I know this is completely off topic but I think you kind of sound like jackfrags (just a little though). Also hands down best stellaris content btw!
I am pretty new to this game and just used one on each planet to maximise my pop growth,I did not even realise it gave amenities as well. I will stop using them as a default first pick and now try to think about when to use them.
If you play Stellaris you cannot be bad at maths but I am sure glad there is Montu to do the heavy strategic thinking for me and also show the maths as well.
I like to think that I invest pops to get pops out of it. Because when that planet is developed, is swap the gene clinic for something else and that's it. There are times in Stellaris where you can spare a few pops and if you can you can prepare for times where every pop counts. Also, that habitability increase reduces amenities usage and with a high amount of pops on the planet, this can get whole pops of your amenities work load.
Imagine if it became possible for traits to increase the effectiveness of medical workers of a specific species. "Caring" or something like that.
you can medical workers are specialist so increase specialist output with Fanatic Egalitarian and Meritocracy
The main issue is simply the COMPOUNDING EFFECT which is the strongest force in the universe (as Einstein claimed lol!)! It's far better to get the bonuses/materials immediately and compound their use than having an extra pop in 50 or so years. By bonuses I mean for example getting unity early as it also has a scaling factor. Faster unity = faster production/stability/habitability bonuses etc.
Only play the New Horizon's mod, but frontier hospitals and administrative complexes keep my pop's happiness is pretty well covered.
I didn't even know gene modification was a thing until it came up as a tech.. Just a few years after some humans on one of my colonies declared themselves "super human". Its safe to say that I fully embraced these new supes and immediately began improving them even further as soon as I was able to. I've now got a second super human colony on the way and I've managed to remove every malus the original humans suffered from. I'm wondering if I can "upgrade" humanity further by combining cybernetics with my new gmo pops
I've been using Gene clinics recently and I'd say it seems to do pretty good. In my current playthrough I'm not going playing biological but what I did was dip my toes on "Flesh is Weak" and call it a day. Whenever I colonize a planet I build a commercial zone, gene clinic, robot production facilities, and administrative offices along with a building specialized for that planet and some specialized tiles to go with that building and let it grow on its own.
Ever since the update, I just build them because they help with pops so I went: "oooo, more people to fund my armies and build my warships."
I've always built them because of the extra amenities until I get clerks online, thank you for validating my amateur logic
I agree with your reasoning. I have long considered gene clinics to be a better choice than a holo-theatre - you generally don't need the unity from the holo-theatre, and even though the gene clinic itself provides fewer amenities, it is usually enough, and it has the other bonuses as well. I have always shrugged at all these people who say gene clinics are a total waste.
I have actually used these in a different way. I actually replace colonist jobs with gene clinic jobs when I have the chance. At 1-4 pops on a planet, I go with 1 energy district, 1 alloy or CG building, or research, depending on what the planet will be, maybe even admin. once the fifth pop is ready to spawn, I build a gene clinic instead, forcing the next pop to take a gene clinic job instead of a colonist job. Colonists don't produce unity, they just produce amenities, food, and armies, and they only produce 4 amenities base, so since you actually need amenities to balance out your growing colonies from 5-10 pops, its actually better to spend say 200-400 minerals on a building you can replace with something later once admins are installed at 10 pops.
Building gene clinics early on the new colonies is generally nice (unless early game year or on your capital) bc more colony population makes your pops more productive, even those pops does not have anything to do! unless your civics is corvee system or something that moving pops doesn't cost influence anyway, more pops make your pops more productive by percentage bonus buildings which only unlocked from certain pops cap.
Great video about how math calculations can go wrong and META-out a building that can actually do something good.
Even more important: do the math on how much sooner you'll have a new pop every time you gain one with the Gene Clinic, vs. without. That's the math that actually counts.
The building might be replaced, or upgraded later. But that does not mean that it is useless. 👍 Good maths
I’ve been playing since the early game (stopped after a while because I want to get a better computer before I go back) and I always used gene clinics because they used to help make the planets more habitable (or something to that effect). I stopped using them after I figured out they stopped doing what they used to do.
I need that starting clip.
Already got used to build them just as a little amenities boost, when not a lot of it required
With the entertainer comparison, what if you left one of the entertainer jobs empty (or if you're in a situation where you need either 2 entertainers or 4 medical workers)? Seems to me like the comparison looks more favourable to the medical workers because the amenities from the 2nd entertainer have very strongly diminishing returns, a comparison to 1 entertainer+1 technician might be more accurate.
I honestly thought everyone knew this and agreed this is how you're "supposed" to use holo theaters (restricting one entertainer job) but you're the only one mentioning it here so now Im not so sure lmao.
he also left out that if u dont ignore required growth scaling it would take 41 not 32 years to pay out (in his scenario in a real empire it would never pay out) and that in that time he would need to employ 1 additional entertainers on top of the medical workers
So, I'm NOT supposed to add them as the first building on a new colony to boost population growth so I get those sweet resources?