Thank you for a fine video - beautiful shooting situation. I only shot 1 deer with the .375 Win. - range was about 100 yards and the deer fell down on the spot. Good round. Keep up the great work.
I really enjoy your videos. I appreciate how you test and analyze your calibers and rifles prior to a hunt. Good data and presentation. Keep them coming.
Those sierra 200’s will be lots on a moose. If you want a lil extra security, the hornady 220’s will pick up the slack. I think a lot of people underestimate the .375W, it’s a great bush rifle. Keep up the good work! 🤘
Love my 375BB. Mine is mint. I even have the original box and tags etc. I've had no trouble at all reaching 2450 with the 200 Sierra's and AA1680 using load data given t me over the phone by a technician at Accurate/Western powders several years ago. I asked for pressure tested safe loads with that powder and bullet combo and the top load is supposed to reach 2500 but I quit at 2450. He gave me some data to use with 220 gr bullets as well, but since Hornady quit making them, I haven't loaded that weight yet, though I do have a few hundred Volmer bullets in that weight to load up.
Only negative I can say about my Win 94 in 375 is it’s top eject so no top center scope mounting. With my older eyes a scope is required. If I’m using my Win 94 BB XTR, I’m grabbing the 356win (angle eject) using 220gr Speers and scoped with a Leupold vari-x III 1.75-6x.
Fury Custom Bullets makes a nice 220gr .375 bullet. He can tailor the jacket and the core to just about any task. A friend recommended these bullets after he had mixed results with the Hornady 220gr bullets.
The 405 grain Rem CL loaded up to 1700FPS hits like a hammer and penetrates well if you can find them. The 350 Horn FN is also a good bullet when kept at or under 2000FPS.
I was a little proactive in my youth and bought 500 cases, and 500 Hornady bullets. You should get some bullets from Vollmer and give them a try, they work great in my 1978 375 Big Bore 94. I'm down to 200 of the Hornady bullets now, so I don't waste them on targets anymore.
Thank you for this great video, its beautiful back country you have to hunt and live in. Back here in Arizona and the rest of the states there is a shortage of .375 win FP bullets right now. I have been forced to trim down the abundant Hornady .375" 270gr. Spire points to 250gr. flat points. If you get a chance give them try, I'm sure you will get plenty of penetration with these heavy jacketed bullets.
Hawk bullets makes a 220 for the 375 Win that I want to try. Mine really likes the 255 Barnes. Congratulations on your Bison, and good luck with the Moose.
i shoot sambar deer with 250gr hard cast commercial projectiles, an mild load , more like hot rodded 38-55 speed, an it works well. massive penetration....
Shortly after I got my 375 Hornady discontinued that 220 gr. bullet. I am so ticked at them. All I've shot is the 200 gr. Sierra. Looks like it will do well enough for deer.
Hornady , and all manufacturers really, have a history of discontinuing. Hornady got me with the 338 RCM ammo. I’ve saved all my brass so it’ll be reloads for me. In your case not having the bullet you want sucks.
Have you tried duct taping 3 telephone books together and shooting in to them dry or wet? Marlin and Winchester made lever guns in .375 and have a cult following.
Another great video! I keep running into you, as I had a 348win a few years back and watched your videos on it. I have a Glenfield 30AS 30-30 that I had JES rebore to 375win. With supply shortages, I found some Hunter's Supply 260gr cast bullets. Designed for the 375 H&H, they are tough bullets. With a gas check installed, they weigh 268gr. I'm pushing these @ 1818 fps with IMR4198. Extreme Spread of 21 fps, and Standard Deviation of 9 fps. It is a really accurate load! I haven't done a penetration test, but I believe they would punch thru a moose! Just an idea to maybe look the cast route. I'm really liking your bullet tests for the ol' 375win. It is becoming one of my favorite cartridges.
Of the rounds you are using, that 220 Hornady looks the best. I don't look at energy that much, mainly as a reference. It puts too much emphasis on velocity. How the bullet performs and penetrates at a given velocity is far more important. I'll use my 20 ga slug gun as an example. Have taken a dozen or so deer with it. Started off with Hornady 250gr SST @ 1800 fps (1798 fpe). They would punch thru the deer, hardly any expansion. Deer would run 30-40 yds, done. Using 350gr Hammerhead slugs @ 1450 fps (1660 fpe), the 20 ga would pancake deer, DRT. Your on the right track looking at how a bullet performs rather than its FPE.
Some good choice for up coming moose hunt. I say I would want best construction bullet I could get and weight . 375 winchesters should do you well in the thickets. Congratulations on the bison 🦬
What a decision to have. I'm partial to the 8x57. I had some 185 grain corelokts designed for the 8mm mag. They held together pretty good in the sand pile. Not sure what they'd do in a moose.
I use the exact same bullets in my 8x57. The biggest thing I have shot with it is blacktail deer. I am guessing they will hold together on elk. Moose...hmm.🤔
@@ryanharris6045 I've only shot paper with them and recovered them from the berm. They were pretty accurate with IMR 4064. I'd imagine you could get maybe 2600-2700 fps in 8x57 but can't say for sure. I think the hornady 196 interlock might be another winner for normal game. Poor North 61 for having to choose between 375win and 8x57. Two great and easy swinging hammers.
@@azrls43185 I'm thinking your choice of IMR 4064 was a better choice than my choice of IMR 4350. I shook a bunch of powder cans and decided to work up a load with what I had the most of.
I have had good results using Speers 235 grain in my 38-55. My bullets are from the early 80's and I am thinking the jacket is weaker than recent lot's due to good expansion. I haven't used the 200 Sierra on anything larger than Deer.
My .375 BB would not shoot jacketed bullets well , the bore slugged at .377 and the factory WW ammo measured .373 . I used 250gr hard cast bullets sized at .379 .
People that trash a .375 win fail to see something that I do. I've got 4 boxes of factory loads from 1978 that shoot amazing. I even have an original box of 250gr along with 3 boxes of 200gr all from 1978. I don't want to shoot them is the problem and the new loads just aren't the same quality. I like mine .. a Marlin like new with 13 rounds through it. I know that from one box only having 7 rounds. Thanks for that.
What I love about the 375 is that it is as light at handy as a 30-30 with a moose worthy round hidden inside that is easy to shoot from a canoe without being recoiled out of the boat. I love it.
@@north61 The day I bought that one he had others in oddball calibers. I should have bought the lot. I did buy another 94 that day though ... 1927 year with saddle ring. I love the whole Old West vibe in my rifles.
I've been curious about the 8x57 as a moose caliber too; been eyeing one and trying to decide if it really gives me a advantage over my 30-06 for moose. In your opinion will the additional frontal area the .323 gives over .308 at a little slower speed give a observable difference on moose size game? I'm curious as I have only taken 2 moose, one was younger with a 270 win and second was a 11 point large bodied bull with a 30-06, bull took 3 shots to convince him to stop and lay down; I've been tempted by the 8x57 as a black bear and moose round as I've got 7mm mag and 7mm-08 I use on dear. Do you have any thoughts on a 338win? was thinking to go that route too for larger frontal area and maybe run moderate loads instead of hot loads.
I suspect you couldn't notice a difference between the 8x57 and 30-06 on Moose. Both would be about ideal. The 338 is a great round but moose are not that hard to kill so extra recoil is largely waisted.
@@north61 Thanks for the quick response and input, I suspect you are 100% on the money. Its always a struggle to convince yourself your buying for the sake of buying and let let the urge for a new toy to go by.
The best 1895 45-70 round for Moose would be the same best one to use on Grizzly Bear!! This round I am talking about is the HSM RNFP 430 grain +P ammo. They are 430 grain round nose flat points and are able to go through the Bears snout and out of its drought!! This is excellent for Moose!!
Save the leg bones from your bison for testing bullets. I used to use 1/2" dry newspaper in front of an old cow or horse leg bone followed by wet newspaper after that. The bone separates the men from the boys. Looks like I'm first!
Yes it will smash then my 338 was pushing 250 grain at 2600 punch thru an engine he's only going few hundred fps slower 225 and up is a hammer at anything over 1600
Congratulations on your bison hunt. What rifle did you end up using? Is there a video of the bison hunt? Good luck on your moose hunt. The 375 Winchester should get it done. I was pretty happy with the 375 XTR that I had.
Agreed. I went to 400gr Speer or Barnes originals in my 450 marlin. The 325gr just wouldn't hold together. But then the 250gr SST in 20ga slugs, you can't get them to expand! Hornady and Sierra bullets have been hit or miss with me. I've been going with Speer and Barnes for big caliber, Swift and Woodleigh bullets for smaller calibers.
Ive been watching your videos and the one thing that stands out is that you NEED a .375H&H Magnum, and that is all you need. light to heavy, it will do it all.
Why not get some 260 grain Partitions and file the tip off? That should be moose medicine. Of course the 375 Win will always give up a lot of range compared to the 8x57. FWIW, a softer target with deeper penetration might allow the differences to show up better. The numbers you get are pretty small to work with. Thanks for posting your videos. I always look forward to them.
If hunting tomorrow I’d take the 200 as it is already proven accurate. Since you have time, I’d See what sort of groups you work up with different powder loads. I like the 220 but it probably can do better accuracy wise. Always enjoy your videos
I've shot 3 or 4 deer with the 200gr Sierra over RL-7 and it's worked out very well, they don't go far. The 220gr Hornsby shot I little more accurately but I feel that deer aren't that tough to put down so I wanted velocity to open up that bullet. I have to agree with you wholeheartedly, 255gr Barnes all the way for moose or bear. Thanks for the video! Have you ever messed around with a .35 Whelen? Great round, and Hawk bullets makes some heavy weights for big stuff.
Not the 35 Whelen but the 358 Norma, 358 Winchester and 350 Rem Mag I have used a lot. I don't use Hawk bullets after getting some pressure spikes with them in the past.
I could swear you said in another video you were taking the 348 Win moose hunting. You are just like me. Never satisfied with just one rifle. lol That's why I don't have many rifles anymore. I really like til I really like something else lol.
I shoot Norma, 195 gr. Oryx bonded, out of Husqvarna 8x57. This is my light rifle, for deer. For bears, I have a Husqvarna 9.3x62, shoot norma Oryx, 285 gr., Open sights. For target, I handload, with Hornaday bullets.
You don't need to find the best bullet for moose. You need to find the ability to stalk and hunt. A good hunter gets close enough to make a mere .30-30 wayl more than enough gun whereas a slob "shoter" wants a cannon to be able to kill anything he sees from 2,000 yards or more.
Thank you for a fine video - beautiful shooting situation. I only shot 1 deer with the .375 Win. - range was about 100 yards and the deer fell down on the spot. Good round. Keep up the great work.
Appreciate the support! Love your channel.
That little lever gun is pretty accurate with those factory loads, glad to see you got your bison
Thanks mate! Close enough that the 458 Win Mag or 405 (or 50-110) would have been a better choice. Speedy calibers = Meat Loss at close range!
@@north61 Or..... .444 Marlin.
I really enjoy your videos. I appreciate how you test and analyze your calibers and rifles prior to a hunt. Good data and presentation. Keep them coming.
Those sierra 200’s will be lots on a moose. If you want a lil extra security, the hornady 220’s will pick up the slack.
I think a lot of people underestimate the .375W, it’s a great bush rifle.
Keep up the good work! 🤘
Love my 375BB. Mine is mint. I even have the original box and tags etc. I've had no trouble at all reaching 2450 with the 200 Sierra's and AA1680 using load data given t me over the phone by a technician at Accurate/Western powders several years ago. I asked for pressure tested safe loads with that powder and bullet combo and the top load is supposed to reach 2500 but I quit at 2450. He gave me some data to use with 220 gr bullets as well, but since Hornady quit making them, I haven't loaded that weight yet, though I do have a few hundred Volmer bullets in that weight to load up.
1680 is the magic powder for 200 grain bullets!
@@north61 Yes sir, and from the fate he gave me, for the 220's as well. 2350 should be easily doable with the 220's according to that data.
Only negative I can say about my Win 94 in 375 is it’s top eject so no top center scope mounting. With my older eyes a scope is required. If I’m using my Win 94 BB XTR, I’m grabbing the 356win (angle eject) using 220gr Speers and scoped with a Leupold vari-x III 1.75-6x.
Had a Winchester Big Bore .375 but always favored the .348 M71, .405 M1895 or a 1886 SRC Browning .45-70 hence sold the .375 WCF.
Fury Custom Bullets makes a nice 220gr .375 bullet. He can tailor the jacket and the core to just about any task. A friend recommended these bullets after he had mixed results with the Hornady 220gr bullets.
Can you recommend a bullet/load for my Marlin 1895 45/70 for my upcoming moose hunt here in NH, USA?
The 405 grain Rem CL loaded up to 1700FPS hits like a hammer and penetrates well if you can find them. The 350 Horn FN is also a good bullet when kept at or under 2000FPS.
I was a little proactive in my youth and bought 500 cases, and 500 Hornady bullets. You should get some bullets from Vollmer and give them a try, they work great in my 1978 375 Big Bore 94. I'm down to 200 of the Hornady bullets now, so I don't waste them on targets anymore.
Thank you for this great video, its beautiful back country you have to hunt and live in.
Back here in Arizona and the rest of the states there is a shortage of .375 win FP bullets right now.
I have been forced to trim down the abundant Hornady .375" 270gr. Spire points to 250gr. flat points.
If you get a chance give them try, I'm sure you will get plenty of penetration with these heavy jacketed bullets.
I love my 356. Wondering which receiver sight you have on your 375. I can't seem to find on for my rifle.
It's a Williams FP 94 sight modified to fit with a file.
Hawk bullets makes a 220 for the 375 Win that I want to try. Mine really likes the 255 Barnes. Congratulations on your Bison, and good luck with the Moose.
i shoot sambar deer with 250gr hard cast commercial projectiles, an mild load , more like hot rodded 38-55 speed, an it works well. massive penetration....
Great video please tell us if you are in your backyard or is that a gun range thank you so much
Vollmer precision also makes bullets for the 375win, they look pretty nice and I've only heard good things about them, thanks!
Hard to get over the Canadian border.. also Fury makes a bullet.
Shortly after I got my 375 Hornady discontinued that 220 gr. bullet. I am so ticked at them. All I've shot is the 200 gr. Sierra. Looks like it will do well enough for deer.
Hornady , and all manufacturers really, have a history of discontinuing.
Hornady got me with the 338 RCM ammo. I’ve saved all my brass so it’ll be reloads for me.
In your case not having the bullet you want sucks.
Please mention a few times the length of the rifle barrel thank you very much
Great video we would like to see the rim of the cartridge super close up and for 10 seconds hold it
I would love to know where you found some 220 Hornady's?
Keeping my eyes open for several years!
Have you tried duct taping 3 telephone books together and shooting in to them dry or wet? Marlin and Winchester made lever guns in .375 and have a cult following.
Another great video! I keep running into you, as I had a 348win a few years back and watched your videos on it. I have a Glenfield 30AS 30-30 that I had JES rebore to 375win. With supply shortages, I found some Hunter's Supply 260gr cast bullets. Designed for the 375 H&H, they are tough bullets. With a gas check installed, they weigh 268gr. I'm pushing these @ 1818 fps with IMR4198. Extreme Spread of 21 fps, and Standard Deviation of 9 fps. It is a really accurate load! I haven't done a penetration test, but I believe they would punch thru a moose! Just an idea to maybe look the cast route. I'm really liking your bullet tests for the ol' 375win. It is becoming one of my favorite cartridges.
Of the rounds you are using, that 220 Hornady looks the best. I don't look at energy that much, mainly as a reference. It puts too much emphasis on velocity. How the bullet performs and penetrates at a given velocity is far more important. I'll use my 20 ga slug gun as an example. Have taken a dozen or so deer with it. Started off with Hornady 250gr SST @ 1800 fps (1798 fpe). They would punch thru the deer, hardly any expansion. Deer would run 30-40 yds, done. Using 350gr Hammerhead slugs @ 1450 fps (1660 fpe), the 20 ga would pancake deer, DRT. Your on the right track looking at how a bullet performs rather than its FPE.
@@timothyparks2531 Thanks Timothy excuse the late reply. I think the 220 Hornady is the way to go...now we got to get them to make it again!
Some good choice for up coming moose hunt. I say I would want best construction bullet I could get and weight . 375 winchesters should do you well in the thickets. Congratulations on the bison 🦬
What a decision to have. I'm partial to the 8x57. I had some 185 grain corelokts designed for the 8mm mag. They held together pretty good in the sand pile. Not sure what they'd do in a moose.
I use the exact same bullets in my 8x57. The biggest thing I have shot with it is blacktail deer. I am guessing they will hold together on elk. Moose...hmm.🤔
@@ryanharris6045 I've only shot paper with them and recovered them from the berm. They were pretty accurate with IMR 4064. I'd imagine you could get maybe 2600-2700 fps in 8x57 but can't say for sure. I think the hornady 196 interlock might be another winner for normal game. Poor North 61 for having to choose between 375win and 8x57. Two great and easy swinging hammers.
@@azrls43185 I'm thinking your choice of IMR 4064 was a better choice than my choice of IMR 4350. I shook a bunch of powder cans and decided to work up a load with what I had the most of.
The Barnes Originals are the Moose ticket ! Just inside 100 or 125 yds.
I have had good results using Speers 235 grain in my 38-55. My bullets are from the early 80's and I am thinking the jacket is weaker than recent lot's due to good expansion. I haven't used the 200 Sierra on anything larger than Deer.
My .375 BB would not shoot jacketed bullets well , the bore slugged at .377 and the factory WW ammo measured .373 . I used 250gr hard cast bullets sized at .379 .
whats your max range on a broadside moose for that setup ?
About 175 Yards I'd say. Past this expansion gets iffy.
People that trash a .375 win fail to see something that I do. I've got 4 boxes of factory loads from 1978 that shoot amazing. I even have an original box of 250gr along with 3 boxes of 200gr all from 1978. I don't want to shoot them is the problem and the new loads just aren't the same quality. I like mine .. a Marlin like new with 13 rounds through it. I know that from one box only having 7 rounds. Thanks for that.
What I love about the 375 is that it is as light at handy as a 30-30 with a moose worthy round hidden inside that is easy to shoot from a canoe without being recoiled out of the boat. I love it.
@@north61 The day I bought that one he had others in oddball calibers. I should have bought the lot. I did buy another 94 that day though ... 1927 year with saddle ring. I love the whole Old West vibe in my rifles.
I've been curious about the 8x57 as a moose caliber too; been eyeing one and trying to decide if it really gives me a advantage over my 30-06 for moose. In your opinion will the additional frontal area the .323 gives over .308 at a little slower speed give a observable difference on moose size game? I'm curious as I have only taken 2 moose, one was younger with a 270 win and second was a 11 point large bodied bull with a 30-06, bull took 3 shots to convince him to stop and lay down; I've been tempted by the 8x57 as a black bear and moose round as I've got 7mm mag and 7mm-08 I use on dear. Do you have any thoughts on a 338win? was thinking to go that route too for larger frontal area and maybe run moderate loads instead of hot loads.
I suspect you couldn't notice a difference between the 8x57 and 30-06 on Moose. Both would be about ideal. The 338 is a great round but moose are not that hard to kill so extra recoil is largely waisted.
@@north61 Thanks for the quick response and input, I suspect you are 100% on the money. Its always a struggle to convince yourself your buying for the sake of buying and let let the urge for a new toy to go by.
What make lever gun is it Sir?
A Winchester Big Bore 94...great rifle.
Need to rebore my Marlin to a 375 win. Good luck on the moose.
Hoping they just make rifles again in 375 Win.
Where did you find the 220 gr Hornady
Good test I’ve shot deer and boar with the 200 Sierra no separation didn’t find one bullet the other two was in Hyde on other side
Is that your backyard or is that a shooting range thank you very much
Hornady discontinued the 220 gr. Shot really well in my 94.
I'm thinking you have a vid of a Husqvarna 1900 in 9.3x62. That would be the top contender for me on a moose hunt, or most anything else! ;-)
Another good. Idea, love my .375 win . Have you tried Hawk Bullets? But also have a couple of 8mm’s that I love , tough choice
The best 1895 45-70 round for Moose would be the same best one to use on Grizzly Bear!! This round I am talking about is the HSM RNFP 430 grain +P ammo. They are 430 grain round nose flat points and are able to go through the Bears snout and out of its drought!!
This is excellent for Moose!!
Save the leg bones from your bison for testing bullets. I used to use 1/2" dry newspaper in front of an old cow or horse leg bone followed by wet newspaper after that. The bone separates the men from the boys. Looks like I'm first!
Great Idea!!!!
Yes it will smash then my 338 was pushing 250 grain at 2600 punch thru an engine he's only going few hundred fps slower 225 and up is a hammer at anything over 1600
I'm trying to be helpful and compliment you thank you good job also please super close up of the rim very important hold for 10 seconds
Surprised that hornady stayed together.
Congratulations on your bison hunt. What rifle did you end up using? Is there a video of the bison hunt? Good luck on your moose hunt. The 375 Winchester should get it done. I was pretty happy with the 375 XTR that I had.
ruclips.net/video/g1g1C1IFqtE/видео.html
Beautiful country where is it?
Yukon Territory in Canada's North.
Mark "kill buckets" off your Bucket List! Lol
Bad accident ended up shooting through my foot and the Remington jacket came completely off separated from the lead
I'm surprised the hornady held together . We have had bad luck with the hornady .458 325gr and 350gr
Agreed. I went to 400gr Speer or Barnes originals in my 450 marlin. The 325gr just wouldn't hold together. But then the 250gr SST in 20ga slugs, you can't get them to expand! Hornady and Sierra bullets have been hit or miss with me. I've been going with Speer and Barnes for big caliber, Swift and Woodleigh bullets for smaller calibers.
@@timothyparks2531 yes I like the speers hot core . I have some 350gr but I can't seem to find them any more . I will give the 400gr a try .
Thanks.
Ive been watching your videos and the one thing that stands out is that you NEED a .375H&H Magnum, and that is all you need.
light to heavy, it will do it all.
Probably right but love the experimenting!
What about bringing some 38-55 in case you want to try spring black bear too.
Why not get some 260 grain Partitions and file the tip off? That should be moose medicine. Of course the 375 Win will always give up a lot of range compared to the 8x57. FWIW, a softer target with deeper penetration might allow the differences to show up better. The numbers you get are pretty small to work with. Thanks for posting your videos. I always look forward to them.
I read an article years back about a .356 Win that got that much better with filed off Nosler 225 and Swift 225 .
The .375 Winchester Should Serve You Well 😀😊🔥
If hunting tomorrow I’d take the 200 as it is already proven accurate. Since you have time, I’d See what sort of groups you work up with different powder loads. I like the 220 but it probably can do better accuracy wise. Always enjoy your videos
With open sights there is a bit of variability. I need to put about 3-4, 3 round groups down range before drawing too many conclusions!
I think I would take the 8mm myself. Or a 9.3. My uncle used a 30-30 years ago for moose.
I've shot 3 or 4 deer with the 200gr Sierra over RL-7 and it's worked out very well, they don't go far. The 220gr Hornsby shot I little more accurately but I feel that deer aren't that tough to put down so I wanted velocity to open up that bullet. I have to agree with you wholeheartedly, 255gr Barnes all the way for moose or bear. Thanks for the video! Have you ever messed around with a .35 Whelen? Great round, and Hawk bullets makes some heavy weights for big stuff.
Not the 35 Whelen but the 358 Norma, 358 Winchester and 350 Rem Mag I have used a lot. I don't use Hawk bullets after getting some pressure spikes with them in the past.
I could swear you said in another video you were taking the 348 Win moose hunting. You are just like me. Never satisfied with just one rifle. lol That's why I don't have many rifles anymore. I really like til I really like something else lol.
Yup! I love em all! I am not very faithful to one rifle!
Hawk bullets may work.
I shoot Norma, 195 gr. Oryx bonded, out of Husqvarna 8x57. This is my light rifle, for deer. For bears, I have a Husqvarna 9.3x62, shoot norma Oryx, 285 gr., Open sights. For target, I handload, with Hornaday bullets.
Excellent video trying to help please hold 10 seconds close up for the rim of the cartridge very important super close up 3 inches
Thanks... I do get a bit jumpy.
I think either caliber will work for moose. But barnes is awesome
Love your 25-06 series. Great caliber that doesn't get enough love!
Stupid me, I said to myself why in the heck would he put a bayonet on a little lever gun.
The 200 grain sierra will wrap the moose around a tree. Remember you do want to bring home some meat. Good hunting…
It's a surprisingly good bullet!
I have always liked sierra bullets.
Wet News Paper or Gelatin Bloclk Better than those Books ..To Keep Bullets together
The moose dies with all at 75 yards
I suppose you are on to something.
Show the viewers what the ammo actually looks like, instead of covering 80% of it with your hand.
Thanks for the input. look at results at 5:17 and after.
You don't need to find the best bullet for moose. You need to find the ability to stalk and hunt. A good hunter gets close enough to make a mere .30-30 wayl more than enough gun whereas a slob "shoter" wants a cannon to be able to kill anything he sees from 2,000 yards or more.