Experimental Mixing Method with Surprising Results
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- Опубликовано: 9 мар 2024
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I do this in Bitwig, which in its spectral suite has a module which separates transient from sustain material and then creates 2 corresponding processing chains - allowing you to use whatever processors you have to effect each separately. Super cool 👍
Damn that’s crazyy!! 🔥
I WAS JUST THING ABOUT THE TRANSIENT SPLIT MODULE lol
@@najee2123 bro, Bitwig’s a beast. Really unique and underrated daw. I’ve been on Cubase, logic and Studio One (and flirted with Reaper) - all great and have their values. But I haven’t looked back since jumping on the ‘wig lol. Especially for production. 👍
@@najee2123 Bro, Bitwig’s a beast. Really unique and underrated Daw imo (and I’ve used a bunch over the years: Cubase, Logic, Studio One, a jaunt with Reaper…)
how is bitwig for recording because they seem to always be doing cool stuff over there
Well, there is the split eq, which does exactly that. I use it a lot.
this is so weird and I love it. Split EQ doesn't let you use any plugin you want on the transient and sustained elements so I see how this could be useful in very unique situations
As others have mentioned... Split EQ. There are several other options that do the same thing. Skillful compression work should also solve most of these issues without having to separate out the transient from tonal. That's why theres attack and release times. This is way too much work for only a very slight return imho, in my mind this is a potentially useful hack for certain use cases where you might need to save something, I would not suggest anyone use this for every project. I would also say if you've just started mixing and are watching this video, please ignore it. Your likely going to over-do it. It's concepts like this used by inexperienced mixers that end to projects getting to the mastering stage totally ruined. Remember less is more.
I've been professionally engineering and producing records for 25 years and this has to be in the top 3 best and most original techniques I have seen. Can't wait to try this.
What is the 1st and 2nd?
Maybe SplitEQ from Eventide could come in handy for this type of processing as it splits transient and sustain inside the plugin itself.
This is pretty smart.
A similar was to separate in real time, instead of rendering, might be achieved by duplicating the track, and putting a transient shaper on each track at the beginning of the chain. One instance of the transient shaper could be set to only pass the transient, and the other would just pass the sustained signal. Then you don't need to render the audio to disk twice for each track, and you can make adjustments to the separation in real time.
This inspired me to think about using a similar transient splitting on some 4 track recordings that I have. The drums were a single mono track, and I'd like to try to figure out a way to create some stereo information without washing it in reverb or delay. I might try splitting out the transients, and then duplicating them and apply the hass effect on just the transients and see if it works at all (hopefully it won't turn into a phasey mess).
Exactly what I do, specially with guitars to mask a too much evident pick noise
This one is going straight into the tool box, very cool idea and I could see this being MASSIVELY helpful for compromised recordings like dark sounding drum close mics that otherwise have lots of bleed.
It's a lot of work for what sounds virtually identical to using a multiband transient shaper. Cubase has one built in and there are many 3rd party transient effects out there.. IMHO.
You could turn one to extreme sustain and release reduction, and the other attack gain. Separate them both, then mix them together again to your taste.
Incidentally, this method sounds much like what Oeksound's new plugin called Bloom is doing... its a multiband version of adjusting the body of each sound after the attack.
you can also do the separation with ozone 11 eq (which is free)
How?
@@j-station theres an option for deciding stereo, mid-side, left-right and transient/sustain. when using transient/sustain you can use the solo-function to hear the transient or the sustain. if you duplicate an audio track and put one eq in solo-transient and on the other track one eq with solo-sustain you should get a similar result.
(but you can not adjust the "filtering" of the transient/sustain, which you did in the video. that's probably the downside)
@@EGLukratorohhh nice! Thanks mate!
couldve just routed the original track into two busses, used oeksounds spiff in delta mode for transient only and on the other the cut mode, then process individually
Another genius
If anyone wants to try this for free, the ozone 11 eq is free and it can separate transient/sustain
That's one of the best mixing tips I've ever seen. That's so useful for so many styles.
Thank you for the great video! However, sound professionals should always remember that using transient shaping with compression produces essentially the same result. Have you tried comparing your ‘new’ mixing approach with the standard one? Because compressors and transient shapers were actually created to control transients WITHOUT separating or any other destructive editing. 😅
Yes. Thank you! I’ve started doubting my knowledge for a moment there😀 Still can’t figure out how this is better then using compressor, transient shaper and/or parallel processing. Except it may be more intuitive for beginners. It helps to split the signal visually and then - mentally. Is this the benefit of this method? Or am I missing smth?
Bitwig has a built in plugin called Transient Split that lets you not only rebalance the transient and tonal portions of a signal but each part can have its own effect chain where you can instantiate the plugin chain you want. Basically you can do exactly the same thing as what you did but don’t need RX to separate the transients, everything can be done within the DAW.
Wow
You can do this in analog as well. I have done it by setting a high ratio and slow attack with long release on a compressor to isolate the transients and also sending the same track through without any compression triggered. Then if you level match those two tracks and sum in reverse polarity with the original, you can also generate the sustain track. With that method you can be sure that the two separate elements do not contain each other. Kind of similar to mid side processing, conceptually, but for a single track.
You could use a compressor such as Kotelnikov in "delta" mode to isolate the transient
Innovative thinking. I always enjoy your videos. You're a natural teacher. Thanks!
I've been trying to understand splitEq for a while, this video save me
Excellent idea. Definitely more control than a transient shaper.
Very interesting method. Though the practicality is still abit questionable, I think it might be even more suitable if the effects are pushed to be even more distinct to really capitalize on the separation. Maybe different reverb settings for both transient and sustain or even some sound design effects.
I do this all the time for drums using triggers and only use Sustain and release of the trigger and keep attack and decay from the original drums (gated). It allows more control of the pitch of the drums, the lenght of the drums and it keeps the play of the drummer more natural
This was really cool! Such an interesting idea. I can definitely see myself trying this on drums.
🔥🔥🔥🔥 that’s why I love your channel. Because you shows something new! Fresh air
Never thought about this, very interesting, gonna try it soon.
Very Nice Experiment!! Love it!
But Why not just use SplitEQ?
Less control
i love how it affected the bass guitar - made it sound more realistic and live. definetely gonna try this out tmrw
man you creative dude
Just use split eq
Love the idea you have, to me, this is more like sound design than mixing but its a great video, love it
Mixing can be a bit of sound design some times.
This is a great novelty for cases where you think you might need it, but I can't imagine doing this all the time or even often.
A good perspective to consider😊
Nice! I'll give that a try. Cool to see another use for the 'clicks only' output aside from making nightmare sounds out of vocal tracks 😆
Really nice ideas
Would have preferred a closer-to-level-matched A/Bs
Brilliant!!!
ive been playing around with this i really like using spiff from oeksound for it if you turn the depth to 10 on cut and click delta for the transients you can really dial in how much you want. it's very interesting i feel like i need to spend more time understanding it because it has so much potential
I think that although the tonal and transient tracks are happening at different times, the relationship between them still can change and produce a different sounding snare/kick so gotta watch out!
Eventide Split EQ?
faster but less control
nice! you can also try sonible - entropy vst to change the tonal/noise ratio on specific frequency ranges in realtime. I often use it on the reverb bus before reverb to make it sound more tonal and "musically"
Yes you can achieve this with plugins but this truly allows you full control of each aspect. Allowing you more control. Really cool, and for an amatuer mixer like me it was a cool new way to look at stuff!
thank you!
I like it. Will try. But why RX for separation? Why not just separate with simple editiing?
cool idea
Thank you !!!!
Does Quantom by wavesfactory do this? Maybe not separate but you can treat the transient and tone separately.
Separating pre-mix looks like a tiday way to do it. I occasionally use Melda's (free) MRatioMB to process transient and sustain separately like youre doing here. I tend to use multiple channels in a single track, but I like how clean this looks on separate tracks.
nice inspiration
One way solution would be SplitEQ from Eventide
You can solo the transient and tonal layers separately, so it's easy to use it as just a "splitter"
Very interesting tip sir :-)
I like the end result, but how is this different from using a fast comp and a limiter to control the transients, I guess it could be useful if you're using diferent processes for the transient and for the sustain, but if you're using the same process, wouldn't it be faster to use parallel comp/limiter?
Smart! thx..but Split EQ does a similar thing; except for the added plugins.
My Professor 🫂♥️
I think if you use the transient shaper yo can achieve something similar without having to saparate the transient from the body, you can control the transient, the tone and maybe not eq separat parts but you can work with the whole file and get similar results
I’m curious how this would work with vocals? Should do a video on this
Uso algun pluging que trabaje el trasiente y el sustain . La pista va duplicada , una sin sustain y la otra solo sustain. los dos terminan a un solo canal para mas procesos. Ni que hablar de usar solo la pista del trasiente para un reverb, etcetera. gran cool video!
Thanks in advance
resullt is insane!
you have way too much time on your hands. But, that is awesome. I really like that a must try, definitely Thanks.
Another way is to dup track in DAW, slap Oxford envolution one with hi attack and low sus, the other track opposite. Want finer control then, slap on shaper box vol sidechain. Advantage is dont need external workflow.
PSP vintage warmer is such a powerful saturator, unfortunately, I tried the demo and it was very laggy :(
Wouldn’t the transient shaper do a bit of what you just did with just a few clicks and saved time? I mean waddayou think?
Would be interesting if the Enveloper Plugin from Logic Pro X can do the Job as well 😎
Se podría usar Ozone 11 con el solo en la sección transient y otra sección el sustain en su eq? Lo probaré. Gracias
see, sirve igual
Si funcionaria bien pero cada plugin tiene su propio algorithmo, y por eso los artifacts estaran a niveles differentes en casos differentes.
What mic was this voiceover recorded on?
Sounds like an SM58 with no high pass filter. So lots of plosives.
interesting technique but how often are drums that well isolated??
I program electronically so, all of them?
As often as possible. It's extremely unprofessional to get a one track drum take as a producer.
@@saylezz I think he meant drum bleed isolation
just for my own ocd, at 4:16 when importing both tracks, if phase was inverted on the original track, would they cancel each other out completely?
if they're both identical before inverting the phase of one of them, yeah
@@wneup I think that's what @rautshsale1948 is asking. If I were trying this technique, that'd probably be the first thing I'd test. If you sum the two imported tracks and invert the phase of the resulting signal, does it null against the original?
@@DorkAhoy ohhhh, my fault, I misunderstood 😭
not completely i just tested and it cancelled to around -80 i couldn't hear it
A null comparison is a good way to measure the level of the artifacts introduced by the separating process.
This is nifty though.
It’s an interesting technique and I will try it. However, it does seem cumbersome.
I’d probably at least try linear phase on the Pro Q 3’s, instead of zero latency mode. Recently I noticed how grainy zero latency mode can sound sometimes and I’ve been avoiding it. Pre ringing might mess it up though.
Overall this is an interesting technique but listening on my tv, it just sounds like transient shaper overuse.
An alternative to RX might be a transient plugin that can isolate the delta signal. Off the top of my head I can’t think of any but it could be more streamlined that way. It would be a slightly different method too, I guess…?
I use pro-Q 3 in natural phase mode, better than zero latency and with no preringing
@@IIOIIAIIIE I agree but on some sources (or combination of sources) natural phase mode will mess up your transients and punch. Sometimes it messing up the transient is good too, it can help a track sit in the mix. But in case anyone is not yet aware, just be careful because they're often not so interchangeable.
@@inmemoryofin what if you divide transients from tonal elements?
@@IIOIIAIIIE I think I know what you’re getting at, that separating them into disparate elements would avoid phase issues. Unfortunately it’s hard to predict and one has to try the different modes to see what works better. Phase isn’t always 100% in one direction or another, and there can be varying phase relationships at different frequencies. It’s kind of like checking phase on overheads vs the close mics - sometimes it’s somewhere in between and you just choose whichever one you like better. I'll recommend Kohle's video(s) on linear phase processing re: punch.
Would you trust something like Split EQ or Carve Transient EQ for the same purpose? Not being able to apply this technique in real time is obviously a down-side
I don't think you need to be as surgical as this technique for most instruments
I sometimes use Transgressor 2 for this. I'm a sound designer, not a mixer but it serves me well. I work in reaper so I can link the parameters of 2 instances, one for transient, one for sustain. Than process them individually. Bonus is it already comes with a built in EQ for the 2 parts
@@camielpovel6290Transgressor is great for drums, some material not so much though as it's really just a gate that splits the audio above and below the threshold.
If you’re doing it in real-time, you can use Split EQ on 2 channels. One for the tonal information ONLY, the next one for transients. I think this is possible. You might get latency, unless you link Gig Performer or Soundstage. Hope this helps 😊
I’m pretty sure you can use dynamic eq
Yeah I was curious whether you couldn’t get a similar effect with some EQ as the transients seem to occupy a frequency spectrum almost independent of the tonal elements …?
@@JulianHarris alternatively there’s Split Eq by Eventide. Which is much more time consuming than what’s done in the video
Use Split EQ
faster and less control option
Aokay, the second one is a little bit louder, so that should sound better. Nope, that snare is ugly, first one is much more controlled and balanced.
good idea, but too complicated.
you could use plugins instead.
u r funny ya
Split eq ...
Faster but less control
A compressor like a LA IIA on the tonal track can provide more control and glue the interments back together. This way you do it is too digital and exact, is not natural. Prolonged listen tires the mind and ears.Not to mention you loose musicality when to crisp in most instances. If the recordings were better you need not do any of this extra time consuming work. I can fix all this during master so it seems pointless.