It's ironic that Yanis is so recognized outside of Greece, yet in Greece the media which is controlled by 4-5 oligarchs have murdered his character and most Greeks disregard him. Lowkey sometimes I believe we don't deserve him. It's one thing to disagree with something he says and completely another to instantly disregard his opinion.
But he doesnt know what he is talking about. I know this... because I know more. And I wouldnt say I know a lot. But I could debate him better than this guy.
well maybe it has to do with his proximity to the Papandreou family? a family which is linked to a multi-million banking scandal? see where PASOK stands today
It is completely wrong to bring a developer against an economist! also Tabori did not understand the audience. The amount of information that he exposed in the first part was just unnecessary!
Yeah, I would like to see Yanis debating Saifedean-Ammous. That would be interesting. But I have to say that I used to agree a lot with Yanis in the past, but here I mostly disagree with what he is saying.
I had exactly the same idea. The topic was: "Will Bitcoin replace fiat?" and Tabori went deaf & blind and gave an explanation of how the blockchain works. The moderator should've stopped him way earlier!
Indeed... Yanis and Jordan Peterson should 'debate' two tech CEO 'digital' fiat, paper billionaires. (And systematically: 'shred' them...) Or better yet: Schwab and his IsRaEli sidekick, Harari. Or a City of London and BI$ bankers. (Speaking of "digital" fiat, funny money... and Trojan horsed: Crypto! ;-)
Varoufakis argues stablecoins are sc-ms as no entity besides state authorities can verify backing reserves. He sees crypto adding to financial instability currently but it could assist states if better regulated - what kind of logic is that?? Especially now when state authorities show well who they really are - one giant Captcha of anti-growth - it's they who need others that would regulate them, i.e. smart people. Varoufakis here represents all other clueless such as c-rrupt tax collectors not realizing where their money comes from.
Yanis is pissed off, because Viktor is stuck in his little coding world and doesn't participate in the debate. The topic was: "Scammers in crypto" and Viktor just goes off on a rant about 14 year olds that can do coding and that it is more accesible than starting a bank. Talking about a scatter-brain.
I agree with u and I think this is the conscious or unconscious state of mind of people who want get better and evolve. That is they confront strong minds and exchange ideas and opinions and that is something I see in both speakers no matter what the age.
Varoufakis argues stablecoins are sc-ms as no entity besides state authorities can verify backing reserves. He sees crypto adding to financial instability currently but it could assist states if better regulated - what kind of logic is that?? Especially now when state authorities show well who they really are - one giant Captcha of anti-growth - it's they who need others that would regulate them, i.e. smart people. Varoufakis here represents all other clueless such as c-rrupt tax collectors not realizing where their money comes from.
@@maxmeier532 I don't think so....he is an engineer and clearly understands the blockchain concept...but he is failing trying to defend the idea that bitcoin can be a currency...
It is unbelievable how many people believe his completely theoretically nonsense. He earns a lot of money talking to people with his big mouth and his big words. It is so sad that supposed high educational young people listen to him. In Greece he is completely unreliable a liar (especially after the referendum at 2015 that he ignored the results of 70% ) and and nobody listen to him. Yes he is a genius in fraud.
@@juliakos6009 Hi - after your comment I went and read two of Yanis' books and have watched around 20 interviews and talks with him. I have to respectfully disagree with your view on him. I found him to be an incredible communicator and his Marxist views and the future possibilities for socialism are growing and increasingly acceptable to many people. Thoughtful thinkers and communicators like Yanis are very much needed.
@@TheSafetyman1000 Yanis is neither a technocrat nor a puppeteer, but thanks for giving his ideas a shot, and I hope you'll try again at a slightly later time in your life, man. No shame in that at all.
He was disadvantaged from the start. Crypto is a pyramid scheme that has the disadvantage of appealing to daft people only. The moment these crypto enthusiasts step out of their echo chamber and run into the cold hard wall of reality, they disintegrate into bumbling buffoons like the fellow here.
As an engineer who has spent several years now looking into economists and how they think and WHAT MONEY ACTUALLY IS. I can say for certain *Yanis is 100% CORRECT* and Viktor hasn't a clue. Sorry but Viktor has (like so many technologists) no idea about what innovation is or how what drives it. Like so many in the IT industry he's completely wrapped up in the technology and because the technology is amazing then he's mistaken that everybody must have it because its amazing. This is actually a very common thing with technologists who do something new or who are involved in a new technological field. These are people generally doing something for the first time ever in human history and its an intoxicating experience. As a result they think their idea is the greatest idea humanity has ever seen. Like artists who hide in workshops they are so intensely focused on their task they often suffer tunnel vision and lose perspective. *NOTICE* how he struggles to stay on the topic and keeps reverting to how amazing the technology is, while Yanis is more "What does that mean for me or to me?" Like right at the end where he points out that owning an NFT means owning a unique collection of 1s and 0s. Well how does owning that feed me, cloth me, keep me warn or cool me down? These are the things the pro-crypto people are NOT asking themselves. They have tunnel vision.
Yes, it's amazing how many people in STEM never ask themselves "should I do this? Is this actually of value?". I have a friend who is a professor of High Performance Computing and every semester he does a class on the human implications of science.
Viktor is an engineer with very little knowledge to economics. Yianis is an expert like few in the world at this feild. The guy made companies like VALVE billionaires for a reason ( He is the one behind Valves market place for example ). If the discussion was only about blockchain mayne Viktor wouldnt look like an amateur but the talk was around economy as a whole and Varoufakis is an expert like few in this world on this. So no chance
@@HealthElite yeah but what he showed is the disconnect between the code writers and the reality of the world we all live in. A few months back Yanis was interviewed by David Pakman here on YT. At one point they discussed crypto. David pointed out that the pro-crypto legion claim that the issues with crypto are actually features not bugs. Yanis relied "that just goes to show how ignorant there are" here's that interview ruclips.net/video/zu0lNnXAiL0/видео.html
@@tonywilson4713 Im with Yanis on this too and thats because .. do you have any idea how many billions people lost the last bull cycle from hacks alone, aka bad/wrong coding and all kind of "bugs" in the code ? Do you have any idea how many projects rugpulled in purpose ? All those things are "bugs" in the cryptosphere need to get rid of or else bitcoin and the whole market will stay a speculative, buy/sell the news, manipulative market till broaden adaptation occurs
Yanis is the brain, the students going to a bar enjoying sodas! The level is unmatchable! Yanis shows the moon , Viktor looks the finger. It's a Masterclass of clarity!
Government only gets bigger and centralisation worse under the current system. Inflation runs at a faster rate as government will not let anything crash propping up zombie companies.
he's nervous, and while both dont have english as their native language, yanis seems to be much more well versed in applying the english language to convey his ideas. tabori isnt able to at all.
Trading with crypto is more beneficial than most people sees it to be, just like stock, and forex trade crypto is also the world fastest leading currency now and in the near future
I think it's disrespectful to Yanis to not get a solid opponent to debate the point of crypto as money. I really want to hear from someone that understands the money system and has a solid case that decentrelised crypto can be money.
Not even need for an economist, although it would have been more rigorous. Most scholars are unfortunately unable to voice an independant opinion about Bitcoin because of the many ties that lies them to the financial system. I don't think he would have taken the stance against someone like Andreas Antonopoulos. I think he would have even refused the debate. However lets be honest, this is not a debate, this is a WEF soft power communication panel, and the desired outcome is in the title of the video.
Hello Matheo, Be that solid opponent. I am wondering if Crypto represents nothing more than attempts to circumvent government taxes on trade, governments that have been gamed to deep levels of corruption? But already we see youthful crypto creators gaming the very systems they set up, ripping off “investors”. Investors in what? Thin air? A dream? Digital fiat? Your thoughts, Matheo?
Because anyone with actual economic acumen would agree with Yannis.. So it only blockchain programmers, cryptobro maximilists, and con artist that think crypto has anykind of a place replacing state money systems...
Even if a server farm uses 100% renewable energy, it is taking renewable energy off the market that could be going towards something more productive like heating homes or pumping water.
That's a slippery slope thinjung of a high grade commie. If i payed for the energy i can use it as i see fit / free market. What is the highest moral authority to judge how energy is ought to be used ? What if they ban something YOU like ? Think about that .. This how tyrants are born.
@@georgesamaras2922 I never said anything about banning. As the bitcoiner said the energy consumption of video games or watching youtube videos is also high. The argument also applies to those uses. Even if the RUclips server farms are using 100% renewable electricity it is a largely empty gesture because the grid is connected and its a grid-wide energy market. We aren't morally absolved for frivolous uses of energy until the entire grid is renewable.
@@zionsky3342 well the goal of any energy system is to match capacity to load. Most succeed in doing that. So in that sense it's not scarce. But we are still very far from de-carbonizing the electric grid.
Renewable energy as a whole is always going to be underused, due to the need of being very proximate to the end user. Bitcoin miners are more competitive when they capture either surplus energy, or energy that is otherwise difficult or undesirable to harness for other uses. Difficult to use an energy source to heat homes when there's no-one living nearby. But Bitcoin miners just need an internet connection in order to capitalise on a source, and so benefit from being more mobile and flexible.
If you were Greek you would understand that Varoufakis is just a far left, ultra theoretical narcissistic man who lives in his bubble. He did great damage to our country while being a finances minister during 2015.
yanis is also responsible for billion of dollars lost in greece. Do you really think he is a good economist? He made hundred of thousands of people to suffer from poverty
Varoufakis was so right ... the bitcoin guy who is all about decentralization came up with google, bosch and all other mega centralized universal companies around his neck. The paradox
I will die happy! Yanis Görög and Viktor, a Hungarian, are on the same stage, reflecting on money. 👍👍👍👍👍👍Sory for my unproper English I am a hungarian.👀👀
Debates styles of these two gentlemen are very different. Mr. Varoufakis is showing the complexity of the matter but his opponent is almost a student style debate arguments at some points. Black/white arguments are boring :) loved hearing this debate
Yanis completely ignored that a major factor for the 1929 crash/bank failures was the fractional reserve nature of the gold back dollar, where the banks print up many times more paper to represent a much smaller supply of physical gold. Had they kept the reserve ratio at 1:1, everyone would have gotten their gold back.
It was never possible for fiat to be backed by gold. If there was a real threat that everyone would turn in their paper for gold the system would have crashed immediately.
Also, he is obscuring the very idea of crypto currencies, making it a national currency for no reason whatsoever. It is not here to replace national currencies but complement them, externalizing the function of storing value in a digital asset. Nations still have their own currencies. His whole point is moot and hints at dishonest intentions to me personally.
well, the problem wasn't really everyone getting their gold back, the problem was lack of liquidity. Part of the reason the great depression lasted was that people started hoarding gold, so there were less money moving around, slowing down the economy. So yea you could avoid bank failure, just like you can avoid bank failure if you never had banks, but this doesn't prevent the great depression
Regardless of fractional reserve or not. The issue would still have arisen. The government was powerless to stimulate the economy in a fiscal manner. So Yannis is correct, no?.
@@siendbhcixisj Another critical issue was that of leverage in the system. Specifically stock investors were allowed 10x leverage, as compared to just 2x leverage today. Thus huge bubbles were created in the 1920's due to easy money. Had leverage been greatly limited, the decline would have been far more gentle and thus we wouldn't have gotten the Great Depression, however we wouldn't have also had the roaring 20's. It would have been a much more gradual, yet sustainable growth in the economy and stock markets.
relax this wasn't even a debate. Breedlove, Antonopoulos, Lyn Alden would make this much more interesting. I voted for him but half of the things he says are not applicable and wishful thinking, as always.
The problem with modern day crypto is that most ppl treat it as an asset class. They have built complex financial products and ecosystems to multiply wealth which is beyond the realm of the common man. It has come to the point that crypto has become just another shadowy asset class, like derivatives. Blockchain and DeFi though, are things that can and will monumentally change the way we transact and share information. And that is the future we need to look forward to
For better or worse, we need to centralize things like currency, so the way in which we centralize is paramount. The current way, is obsolete and the reason for many problems today.
He was a second grade economics professor in Sydney AUSTRALIA and because he was, and still is, a G. Soros stooge he was parachuted into Greece as Finance minister. There he betrayed the Greek people by allowing the economic subjugation of Greece to the oligarchs if EU. Agsin with Doris sponsorship he created his own political party overnight and joined Greek Parliament to be a sycophantic back up to whatever party took power so as to continue the betrayal of Greek Sovereignty. I speak from experience because in a Referendum where 65% of people voted YES to reject EU Memorandums designed to loot the Greek economy he and his Prime Minister Tsipras usurped reversed it and made it a Yes vote. I was there.
@@vasilioskyriakidis2559 the only fact that you seem to ignore how corrupt Greece is makes me wonder why wouldn’t you like him. In Greece even gas for your car you could buy in the black market without paying taxes… and by the way if your story is true that they forged the results to stay in the EU, be happy about it… since otherwise Greece would have suffer even more then they do today.
GodBless Tabori... But from the perspective of usefulness of Crypto long-term (Not Blockchain) He's discussing with great passion the paint chemistry on the Titanic.
So glad for this. Yanis is basically articulating much better than I ever could and in vastly more detail why I think block chain has possible good applications but not as money. I go more towards smaller communities keeping track of resources etc. Maybe I just listen to so much of him my thinking is getting influence from him. lol The possible crypto coin investment scams are another great point Yanis brings up against crypto currency. Probably my biggest objection to crypto.
I think Yannis means Bitcoin specifically. Crypto COULD be used as money. In fact, money creation could be democratically governed. Crypto allows this to move beyond the scale of individual nations to potentially a world governed democratically facilitated currency. But yannis is correct in the sense that money cannot be apolitical and the current incarnations of the technology are not designed for this.
@@Mishk Yeah, some form of crypto could just be a more secure form of fiat. He alludes to that at the end. A coin advertised as a decentralized coin to be used in place of a national coin is problematic.
@@Mishk I think he was abundantly clear that money cannot be created democratically while we're still operating in our political and economic structure. De-centralised money when you still have nation states and hard borders is a recipe for chaos.
@@ryankwan1934 Right, as these things work today. All you have to do is only give voting power to governments. One vote per nation state. Btw maybe the United National and other worldwide organizations should use the technology too. It’s a tamper proof. Veto proof. Single power dominating others proof mechanism for decision making.
Couldn't they bring a better suited opponent to Varofakis? I just felt I could have answered better and even given Varofakis a bit of a fight. I agree with him on many points, although I think there is a use case for a fixed supply of money as it is not right to say that printing money is necessary sometimes. It is, if we want to keep consumption high and destroy our planet, but do we really? Also cryptocurrency is not directly competing with regular currencies, they are the money of the internet, something Andreas Antonopoulos explain good. The problem with bitcoiners though, is that they are too infused into the tech, like technocrats. Varofakis got a very easy one, good for him.
The difference in the level of oratoric abilities between the two is hard to grasp. I am not even getting into knowledge of economics or how society works. YV is stellar.
YV is a great orator, but it wouldnt have mattered had they actually gotten someone on who knew they "whys" of bitcoin. the guy they had on is clearly clueless.
@@BigJonkulous You clearly have no idea what a debate is for if you think it's about 'crushing the opponent'. It sounds like MMA is more your kind of world.
In the pandemic, in a fixed-money supply, the government could have increased taxes in order to acquire money, which is effectively what they did with printing money. By doing the latter, all they did was take wealth away from those furthest from the money printer. Money printing solves an issue where there isn't enough money in circulation compared to the number of goods available. But in such circumstances, prices would be *dropping*, not increasing.
Exactly what I’m thinking. Like, how is printing trillions of dollars a good thing? Prices have doubled and my wage stayed the same. Where did the money go? To the rich. Great.
People that want their money influenced by political decisions can opt into a currency with admin keys. Those who don't, can stay with an uncontrollable currency. I'm in favour of freedom, it's unfortunate that someone as intelligent as Yanis is an open totalitarian.
How do we deal with crises like the great depression or a pandemic if there isn't some authority that can print money in these extraordinary situations. I choose inflation over a great depression any day.
Exactly. See it’s not about what we want or what we need, It’s about what the government wants and what they need. The government will never use Bitcoin as the main currency because it can’t be inflated, so it isn’t useful for them. Exact reason why we left gold back then, it can’t be inflated. However… The power of blockchain is inevitable. The major projects are advancing us forward we’ve only touched the surface. We got a long way to go before we master blockchain technology and it demands funds. You will be the investor who will be the first founders of this technology that will eventually rule the human race
December 23rd: 1913 Woodrow Wilson signs the Federal Reserve Act, which had passed Congress just the previous day. This system - called the Aldrich Plan, and promoted by Senator Nelson Aldrich of Rhode Island - gave a monopoly on the creation of dollars to a consortium of large banks. The Act was passed, by the way, in the name of financial stability.
The person debating 'in favour' of crypto was simply not at the level required for the debate. 1. Not all cryptos have a fixed non-adjustable supply - for example stablecoins. 2. Not all stablecoins are scams. Collaterised stablecoins work and do not need a centralised authority overseeing the reserves. Uncollaterised stablecoins are more complex but can work. LUNA is not the only stablecoin design. Yanis is essentially arguing for crypto and saying it hasn't yet found a compelling usecase. One compeling usecase *is* stablecoins.
Exactly. Nobody in that room understands what they are dealing with. It's a sad reality of the crypto space that almost none of the participants have the right framing, even the serious people are involved for entirely misguided ideological reasons. And the tragedy of the skeptics is that even though their arguments are mostly correct, they are still completely wrong. Everything seems useless if you are looking at it upside down.
1. No mention of Store of value - what better then fast transportable "e-gold" that you can conceal? 2. Market cap high was 3 trillion - 1/4 of of gold. So why not reaching gold in 5-10 years and volatility dropping significantly? 3. Money = belief and belief is growing. Younger generation invests more. The generational transfer of money will result in much more crypto holdings. 4. No central control = cannot be killed by just one country or even group of countries. 5. Some cryptos are commodities vs others are like securities. That brings different meaning to them and discussion should include that.
And the opponent for Yanis is an engineer... because of course he is. Engineers (in recent years particularly in IT/ComputerScience) have become increasingly myopic. Yanis on the other hand, like a true Greek intellectual, is always mindful of first principles which act as an excellent defense against unfounded conclusions. That combined with a vast wealth of knowledge makes him a formidable debate opponent.
The value is in the fact that there is a network, in which anyone can send and recieve money without asking anyone for permission to join the network and without being able to be access denied, censored, racially profiled, your money being confiscated or inflated away by the state. It’s a trustless network. This means you can interact with anyone in the network whithout having to trust that person to not do a refund of sending you fake money. These are just some of the many characteristics that make Bitcoin valuable.
I need to do some research on this, but I am convinced that it was not the gold standard, but the speculation on wall street and the fractional reserve banking that caused the the Great Depression. It's just like CDO's today. Even if you have a sound asset at the bottom, if you sell more of it, then there is and mix it with bad investments, you're gonna have a problem.
The Great Depression was caused by a combination of factors, including the gold standard, speculation on Wall Street, and fractional reserve banking. The gold standard limited the ability of governments to respond to economic downturns by printing money, while speculation on Wall Street and fractional reserve banking created an unstable financial system that was vulnerable to collapse.
Reading about people grabbing multi figures monthly as income in investment even in this crazy days in the market, any pointers on how to make substantial progress in earnings? would be appreciated.
Investing in assets is the code for having a successful financial life, investing with the right expert would free you from modern financial slavery. Investing in crypto now is really cool especially with the current price in the market for now
The fluctuations of the market only affect those that hodl coins, but traders makes money on both sides, when it's bearish they go short when it's bullish they go long... The best strategy to use in trading crypto is to trade with a professional, like Fergus waylen he understand the market quite well, that way maximum profits are guaranteed.
I'm honestly surprised that this name is being mentioned here, I stumbled upon one of his clients testimony last two months in CNBC world news and decided to try him out...I'm Expecting my third cashout in 2days
Oh I remember him, Mr Waylen, a brilliant market enthusiast with new strategies. I signed up on his platform some months back, it has been productive for me
This debate was just a scratch on the surface it would be great to hear Yannis discuss it with someone that has a deeper interest in the speculations of crypto and where it can lead.
Everything differs in magnitude, not in kind. The difference between right and wrong is how much. Reasoning is abstract, but never do things for abstract reasons.
Yannis, we will talk about it when USD collapses. Money is what people choose it to be and the argument that the printer should always be at hand is what led us in the current situation. Post predatory capitalism is around the corner and hopefully a better form will replace that. If Yannis took to the stage Max Keiser he would be destroyed.
I agree with you. There is a PDF around Internet called "Modern Money Mechanics". It says that money is what we mean it to be. Crypto is already changing small nations. Take Argentina for instance: you either carry a bag of FIAT to buy empanadas or simply uses crypto dollar everywhere. Can you dig it?
What people choose it to be, but also what the state chooses to collect the taxes in... The state can inforce a lot. Because people need the state, whether we like it or not
I still don't understand, why most of the people will opt in to use unregulated, non-insured, non-backed by government, volatile currency, vs. a regulated, more stable official government currency. The risk is too high. Only idealists will do that (put all their assets in crypto).
why would you want someone who cant even read a damn chart and bought the top of the everything bubble express his opinions ? BTC is still up 350% from the pandemic lows fyi
Difference between official fiat currencies & Bitcoins & other cryptos created out of thin air, is that currencies are backed and regulated by gov'ts. National currencies such as USD, Euro, Yuan, aren't constantly being promoted as an investment asset in itself. Furthermore, USD, Euro earns interest for people who keeps them.
I believe that it is very difficult to game the system if money is in-elastic!! This is why they decoupled the dollar from gold. After this action the rich became richer , the poor became poorer, and inflation has been going up ever since!! Now its time we pay the Piper.
"It is no different whether you're oppressed by the governmant or by Google, Facebook and so on. " (not exact quote) I love how he put it. So many people notice the state oppression but never speak or realize the oppression by big megacorporations.
I'd say it's quite different. If you get pissed of by government enough you can assemble and overthrow it. The way that Google or Facebook are doing it is basically making it impossible to live out of their bubble and overthrowing them isn't even ever come on anybody's mind. They are basically enslaving the government system that serves us yet in non transparent way making it impossible for average folk to connect the dots. Thus what will end up people might get pissed of by government will overthrow it but the new government will still be serves to Google and Facebook.
Hard disagree. They are still subject to competition in a free market. Even if they look like monopolies here and now. ChatGPT for example has deprecated 2 decades of Google's competitive advantage. Unlike the state who actually has the power to oppress because it has monopoly on violence. No company has that.
@@КЛИН-е2з Wrong. Consumers can make any company fail, anytime, by not choosing their product. A free market allows anybody to copy any company's product, and citizens to choose among many alternatives. Citizens choose who lives and who dies.
Yanis is great and the only point I disagree with him on is when he says that those with more ETH dictate the direction of Ethereum's development. This isn't true, Ethereum does not have token governance.
I can be your crash, but first you are my crash, since not a lot of girls are following him. :) huge respect. Do you attend any kind of meetups for intellectual topics like this?
@@domenicochirico9787 It was kinda like a deer in the headlights moment for Tabori. When your own debate opponent has to advise you on which arguments to make from an economic and social point of view--ouch.
this was easily one of the most informative + inspiring things I've ever seen, I've just finished watching it for the 2nd time, and I'm really excited to now get the book, Yanis' references to the late 1700s are a terribly relevant example from recent-ish history, so powerful to think we may be on the brink of undoing the current cloud-shackles - I'm really grateful to be able to have access to the thoughts of incredible thinkers around history/economics/revolutionary ideas like this, it's really exciting to think we're potentially only one small revolution away from a far more equitable social situation, given how "globalised" the world asserts to being... it really sounds possible that enough people can agree around the world.. that we don't want to be cloud serfs, maybe more that we want to have a share of the profits being sourced from technological growth. no longer should the risks be socialised with profits privatised, the more people that learn this key human right the better I think. thank you yanis, pls i rly hope that people see the sense in this information..
@@GeorgeHashesThoughts completely agree. good for us bitcoiners that these people exist. gives us time to accumulate more before the world realises what bitcoin is!
Ethereum developer and political theory student here. Varoufakis has always been a goat. Pleasantly surprised he has the openness to engage on this. What I do hate however is that the left, broadly, always seems to be reactionary when it comes to potentially page shifting technologies. Hope to see DAO powered labor unions and political parties soon. WIP
Any learned austrian economist who understands bitcoin’s significance could debunk this fool’s fiat propaganda with a few arguments about praxeology and time preference.
One problem: Any FIAT money contains the temptation for the respective state to just print a little more in case they are out of their budget, but need a little more import goods without paying as much for it. Today nearly every currency in history has fallen for this and eventually ceased to exist because of it somewhere in the future. But for Bitcoin that temptation simply does not exist and nobody has any interest in devaluating Bitcoins. As soon the people will learn that Bitcoin is no way of keeping one's fortunes over a long time Bitcoin will land where it belongs: as a medium to do business with. Right now we still can watch every existing currency slowly losing it's value, just a few percent every year - until it eventually can only be used as wallpaper. And all that inflation steals values from the people.
Tabori clearly out of his league here. Varoufakis made some very good points, but i did expect much more from him. Especially when arguing about why money should be inflationary / deflationary. Simply because tech improves, so more goods can be produced in the same amount of time. The universe has, for us, 2 main "coins": Energy and Time (there are others, but not too relevant here). Another main mistake by Varoufakis was he mentioned 1923 and the collapse of the USA market as the only example of an un-elastic FIAT economy. NO !! We had that for millenia, when Gold (and silver) were the only means of measuring "wealth" and these were used as money. As nations simply couldn't have more Gold, people remained poor for millenia.
Unless, you had something to trade that was unique and difficult to copy, hence the 300,000 types of plants cultivated in Europe each adapted to their location soil type etc... this is why sterile flowers are profitable plus they flower more... if someone could bring back the plant from the celery family that we drove to extinction, through its use as currency, and ability as a contraception for men and women, and breed in sterility, they would be a very wealthy person, provided they could produce viable seed themselves and keep secret exactly how much they have.... hence governments and bankers and fiat.... its a mafia... or more politely cabal. But don't bite the hand that feeds you, unless you can feed yourself.
Who am I to argue with Yanis, but who said that Bitcoin was money? For example, the US Securities and Exchange Commission has defined Bitcoin as a "Commodity", the same as Gold, which many compare it to. I think he should have been arguing whether or not Bitcoin is a good store of value.
Instructive and useful debate/conversation. Young people should be commended for trying to come up with innovative solutions. Older folks should guide them as to the applications of such inventions. Yanis is correct here. Crypto is nothing but a Ponzi, more or less, while Blockchain is a perfect solution for a yet to materialized problem, again more or less. IMHO
@@inversebrah Thanks for the laughs, Avi. I commend your passion. If I may, however, point out a small detail. There was a period between those 2 sentences. Perhaps hard to see on a small screen. I understand ^^
this was the most painful debate I've seen in a long time, crypto guys inexperience with public speaking, seguing into long irrelevant explanations about crypto (a symptom of nerdiness which I recognize in myself), yanis getting actually pissed but the crypto guy also failing to stand up for himself with adequate vigor. It's like a nightmare about public speaking, irrelevant of the actual subject.
Also did you know you can make smart contract in BTC network?... Also did you know we dont pretend everyone uses BTC as money. Use it as you wish. That is why it is decentralized. You can use it to store your documents at a very expensive rate too!
YF is pretty clear and correct in his statements about why Crypto can't be money (and shouldn't be). The tech is really interesting, valuable, and undoubtedly applicable in many spheres, but not as money. Frankly, he debates incredibly well because no matter how complicated the topic, he can make it accessible to even the clueless. Crypto bros are unable to make the specific nature and general usefulness of crypto all that comprehensible even to the quite brilliant and interested. They then try to strengthen the argument for crypto (ironically to the listener) by what amounts to an ad hominem argument against the intellect of the listener him/her self..."You don't get it because it's awesome...trust me you moron"! LOL!
I mean, they brought on an engineer and he explained things in engineering terms. Here is a bitcoiner economist explaining money ruclips.net/video/gp4U5aH_T6A/видео.html
Or alternatively, the ‘tech’ has been around for going on 14 years now and there just arent any actual non circular use cases. Best case is that its a solution in search of a problem. Reality is that crypto has completely failed as currency which was its originally intended use case. Since then its been rebranded and dressed up in loads of bullshit and empty promises by criminals and grifters that make Madoff look tame by comparison.
YF argument of why crypto can't be money is flawed because he still uses Bitcoin as his frame of reference. There are many currencies where supply is no deflationary as in Bitcoin, and you can print more money when needed. The fact he still uses that as his frame of reference show how limited his thinking about money is.
there's plenty of cryptos where supply is programmable, he doesn't even mention this. So crypto CAN be money BUT governments will try to not allow this but otherwise it CAN be! He also didnt discuss a bunch of types of consensus mechanisms (eg, proof of work, proof of stake, proof funds, proof of liquidity etc etc) and that these are constantly being tweaked to avoid "private centralisation" as well as government centralisation.
As long as it's possible to manipulate a type of money, it will be done. Wrong to think that bitcoin is flawed because it cannot be 'adjusted'. It's the only way to prevent manipulation.
I love this discussion. It is the first time that I watch a debate between a strong economist and a crypto guru (who thinks that crypto will revolution the world). It is very annoying to hear crypto people thinking that some lines of codes can explain economics which a social science. People behaviours can never be explained with line of codes. I love the part where he explains to the guy why stable coin are shit coins actually.
@@rnd1sir347 your comment proves that you 1) you didn't watch the debate 2) you have serious comprehension issue (2 digits iq probably) 3) you are confusing cryptocurrencies and Blockchain
@@rnd1sir347 go explain this to Yanis. Don t just hide here and try to explain shits and nonsenses. Stable coin are shitcoins they are his words and he is right.
Now the phone has gone from communicating with far off individuals to transacting with them peer to peer. And crypto coins allow for 'value' to be cited and incorporated into the transaction. Presto! No bank banking.
Every time the blockchain/bitcoin geniuses try to debate really smart scientists/economists/politicians etc.... they're always getting destroyed. It's sad to see young people have no ability to understand and acknowledge their own limitations. Humility is at 0.
Clearly Yannis is more experienced debating in front of an audience but he did not come across as a nice guy. Some of his arguments were completely or partly wrong or were ment to ridicule his opponent. I believe Yannis is just too much of the political establishment to really take us crypto folk serious. And it's true in the great scheme of things, we are pretty much insignificant. Now! We gotta be patient.
No, I disagree with you! The US CURRENCY "money" was replaced in 1913 which resulted in the 1929. Irresponsible Governments remove the consequences of financial responsibility. Fiat money will always fail.
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I would like to see someone of a higher caliber debate this with Yanis.
Andreas Antonopolous would be good.
It doesn't matter who shows up you will still have the same Results.
Indeed - the brain is not strong in this one...
Erik Voorhees would be ideal. I don't think Yanis will debate him.
@@endlessfeast you are absolutely wrong my friend:) he will brutally lose against Roman Reher from the blocktrainer
It's ironic that Yanis is so recognized outside of Greece, yet in Greece the media which is controlled by 4-5 oligarchs have murdered his character and most Greeks disregard him. Lowkey sometimes I believe we don't deserve him. It's one thing to disagree with something he says and completely another to instantly disregard his opinion.
so sad but true
It's a good thing we live in a global marketplace of ideas.
Them no the winning numbers for winsome brooks awesome show no love to m e only shame me use my name and number
But he doesnt know what he is talking about. I know this... because I know more. And I wouldnt say I know a lot. But I could debate him better than this guy.
well maybe it has to do with his proximity to the Papandreou family? a family which is linked to a multi-million banking scandal? see where PASOK stands today
It is completely wrong to bring a developer against an economist! also Tabori did not understand the audience. The amount of information that he exposed in the first part was just unnecessary!
Yeah, I would like to see Yanis debating Saifedean-Ammous. That would be interesting. But I have to say that I used to agree a lot with Yanis in the past, but here I mostly disagree with what he is saying.
I had exactly the same idea. The topic was: "Will Bitcoin replace fiat?" and Tabori went deaf & blind and gave an explanation of how the blockchain works. The moderator should've stopped him way earlier!
It's like watching a student debate with a slightly pissed off yet respectful teacher
It was painful, lol.
yeah......... lol
Indeed... Yanis and Jordan Peterson should 'debate' two tech CEO 'digital' fiat, paper billionaires. (And systematically: 'shred' them...) Or better yet: Schwab and his IsRaEli sidekick, Harari. Or a City of London and BI$ bankers. (Speaking of "digital" fiat, funny money... and Trojan horsed: Crypto! ;-)
Varoufakis argues stablecoins are sc-ms as no entity besides state authorities can verify backing reserves. He sees crypto adding to financial instability currently but it could assist states if better regulated - what kind of logic is that?? Especially now when state authorities show well who they really are - one giant Captcha of anti-growth - it's they who need others that would regulate them, i.e. smart people. Varoufakis here represents all other clueless such as c-rrupt tax collectors not realizing where their money comes from.
Yanis is pissed off, because Viktor is stuck in his little coding world and doesn't participate in the debate. The topic was: "Scammers in crypto" and Viktor just goes off on a rant about 14 year olds that can do coding and that it is more accesible than starting a bank. Talking about a scatter-brain.
I can listen to Yanis all day. He was clearly making his point but still respectful.
Viktor Tabori is amazingly courageous to stand in front of someone like Yanis and get baked
😂 funny..., but he's young... Yanis is and old wolf... Good for both
Yanis is more an old, experience fox, lol.@@me-jn1zl
I agree with u and I think this is the conscious or unconscious state of mind of people who want get better and evolve. That is they confront strong minds and exchange ideas and opinions and that is something I see in both speakers no matter what the age.
Varoufakis argues stablecoins are sc-ms as no entity besides state authorities can verify backing reserves. He sees crypto adding to financial instability currently but it could assist states if better regulated - what kind of logic is that?? Especially now when state authorities show well who they really are - one giant Captcha of anti-growth - it's they who need others that would regulate them, i.e. smart people. Varoufakis here represents all other clueless such as c-rrupt tax collectors not realizing where their money comes from.
Though Chose A Poor Speaker For Blockchain. Maybe On Purpose
poor guy Tabori, honestly a nice guy, but I would never go debate with Yanis without first going through an intensive full-year Macroeconomy course :D
yeah....painful to watch....
maybe it's the stage freight. standing up there it seems he lost his ability to add 2+2 let alone show it with a simple example.
@@maxmeier532 I don't think so....he is an engineer and clearly understands the blockchain concept...but he is failing trying to defend the idea that bitcoin can be a currency...
Yanis is a scammer and liar
Yanis was being nice . Victor was out of his league.
Victor brought a knife to gun fight. Poor guy. That said, Yanis is a genius and boss level thinker and communicator.
So true...
It is unbelievable how many people believe his completely theoretically nonsense. He earns a lot of money talking to people with his big mouth and his big words. It is so sad that supposed high educational young people listen to him.
In Greece he is completely unreliable a liar (especially after the referendum at 2015 that he ignored the results of 70% ) and and nobody listen to him.
Yes he is a genius in fraud.
The technocrats and their puppeteers are in panic and fight mode that is all no genius here
@@juliakos6009 Hi - after your comment I went and read two of Yanis' books and have watched around 20 interviews and talks with him. I have to respectfully disagree with your view on him. I found him to be an incredible communicator and his Marxist views and the future possibilities for socialism are growing and increasingly acceptable to many people. Thoughtful thinkers and communicators like Yanis are very much needed.
@@TheSafetyman1000 Yanis is neither a technocrat nor a puppeteer, but thanks for giving his ideas a shot, and I hope you'll try again at a slightly later time in your life, man. No shame in that at all.
kind of like listening to a 10y/o debating an 80y/o about the meaning of life
Tabori just explains how it works. But he has no idea how money works...
His armpits are sweaty. He's nervous 🤣
I would be mega nervous if I was having to debate varoufakis!
I agree. Yanis had an easy opponent. Viktor was unable to convey the value proposition of Bitcoin.
Yea. Yanis NEVER would debate Saidadeen or Breedlove, or Booth. Soooo freaking boring listening to Tabori
He was disadvantaged from the start. Crypto is a pyramid scheme that has the disadvantage of appealing to daft people only. The moment these crypto enthusiasts step out of their echo chamber and run into the cold hard wall of reality, they disintegrate into bumbling buffoons like the fellow here.
As an engineer who has spent several years now looking into economists and how they think and WHAT MONEY ACTUALLY IS. I can say for certain *Yanis is 100% CORRECT* and Viktor hasn't a clue.
Sorry but Viktor has (like so many technologists) no idea about what innovation is or how what drives it. Like so many in the IT industry he's completely wrapped up in the technology and because the technology is amazing then he's mistaken that everybody must have it because its amazing.
This is actually a very common thing with technologists who do something new or who are involved in a new technological field. These are people generally doing something for the first time ever in human history and its an intoxicating experience. As a result they think their idea is the greatest idea humanity has ever seen. Like artists who hide in workshops they are so intensely focused on their task they often suffer tunnel vision and lose perspective.
*NOTICE* how he struggles to stay on the topic and keeps reverting to how amazing the technology is, while Yanis is more "What does that mean for me or to me?" Like right at the end where he points out that owning an NFT means owning a unique collection of 1s and 0s. Well how does owning that feed me, cloth me, keep me warn or cool me down? These are the things the pro-crypto people are NOT asking themselves. They have tunnel vision.
Yes, it's amazing how many people in STEM never ask themselves "should I do this? Is this actually of value?". I have a friend who is a professor of High Performance Computing and every semester he does a class on the human implications of science.
@@ryankwan1934 true, STEM is not ideology-free. But also, people act that way in every field. It's just more dangerous in STEM
Viktor is an engineer with very little knowledge to economics. Yianis is an expert like few in the world at this feild. The guy made companies like VALVE billionaires for a reason ( He is the one behind Valves market place for example ). If the discussion was only about blockchain mayne Viktor wouldnt look like an amateur but the talk was around economy as a whole and Varoufakis is an expert like few in this world on this. So no chance
@@HealthElite yeah but what he showed is the disconnect between the code writers and the reality of the world we all live in.
A few months back Yanis was interviewed by David Pakman here on YT. At one point they discussed crypto. David pointed out that the pro-crypto legion claim that the issues with crypto are actually features not bugs. Yanis relied "that just goes to show how ignorant there are"
here's that interview
ruclips.net/video/zu0lNnXAiL0/видео.html
@@tonywilson4713 Im with Yanis on this too and thats because .. do you have any idea how many billions people lost the last bull cycle from hacks alone, aka bad/wrong coding and all kind of "bugs" in the code ?
Do you have any idea how many projects rugpulled in purpose ?
All those things are "bugs" in the cryptosphere need to get rid of or else bitcoin and the whole market will stay a speculative, buy/sell the news, manipulative market till broaden adaptation occurs
Yanis is the brain, the students going to a bar enjoying sodas! The level is unmatchable! Yanis shows the moon , Viktor looks the finger. It's a Masterclass of clarity!
there is nowhere such a fascinated & well structured analyst than yanis
roubini is literal gold
Tabori didn't engage in any kind of debate at all here. He just gave an educational talk on the technicalities of how it works.
As they alwatys do.
They have no understanding of economics or currencies.
Government only gets bigger and centralisation worse under the current system. Inflation runs at a faster rate as government will not let anything crash propping up zombie companies.
he's nervous, and while both dont have english as their native language, yanis seems to be much more well versed in applying the english language to convey his ideas. tabori isnt able to at all.
Trading with crypto is more beneficial than most people sees it to be, just like stock, and forex trade crypto is also the world fastest leading currency now and in the near future
You are right.!
That is why I had to start forex trading 2months ago and I now am making benefits from it..
I started paying more attention to stock and learning more about online trades
Trading became interesting when I met Shanita online and she gradually exposed me to the whole trade market and how to earn massively from it
I was introduced to forex with the guidance of Mrs Creswell and there isn’t a single trade I have loosed
This was like basketball game Michael Jordan vs my grandmother with broken hip.
Tabori got roasted but I appreciate he stood up there.
Pov: When you meet the final boss without upgrading correctly
That was a fine one lol
I think it's disrespectful to Yanis to not get a solid opponent to debate the point of crypto as money. I really want to hear from someone that understands the money system and has a solid case that decentrelised crypto can be money.
Not even need for an economist, although it would have been more rigorous.
Most scholars are unfortunately unable to voice an independant opinion about Bitcoin because of the many ties that lies them to the financial system.
I don't think he would have taken the stance against someone like Andreas Antonopoulos. I think he would have even refused the debate.
However lets be honest, this is not a debate, this is a WEF soft power communication panel, and the desired outcome is in the title of the video.
It already is money. He is speaking about national currencies, which is a different thing, imo.
Hello Matheo, Be that solid opponent. I am wondering if Crypto represents nothing more than attempts to circumvent government taxes on trade, governments that have been gamed to deep levels of corruption? But already we see youthful crypto creators gaming the very systems they set up, ripping off “investors”. Investors in what? Thin air? A dream? Digital fiat? Your thoughts, Matheo?
BTC is 0. Crap. Next.
Because anyone with actual economic acumen would agree with Yannis.. So it only blockchain programmers, cryptobro maximilists, and con artist that think crypto has anykind of a place replacing state money systems...
Even if a server farm uses 100% renewable energy, it is taking renewable energy off the market that could be going towards something more productive like heating homes or pumping water.
That's a slippery slope thinjung of a high grade commie. If i payed for the energy i can use it as i see fit / free market. What is the highest moral authority to judge how energy is ought to be used ? What if they ban something YOU like ? Think about that .. This how tyrants are born.
@@georgesamaras2922 I never said anything about banning. As the bitcoiner said the energy consumption of video games or watching youtube videos is also high. The argument also applies to those uses. Even if the RUclips server farms are using 100% renewable electricity it is a largely empty gesture because the grid is connected and its a grid-wide energy market. We aren't morally absolved for frivolous uses of energy until the entire grid is renewable.
Energy isn't scarce. You've been lied to.
@@zionsky3342 well the goal of any energy system is to match capacity to load. Most succeed in doing that. So in that sense it's not scarce. But we are still very far from de-carbonizing the electric grid.
Renewable energy as a whole is always going to be underused, due to the need of being very proximate to the end user. Bitcoin miners are more competitive when they capture either surplus energy, or energy that is otherwise difficult or undesirable to harness for other uses. Difficult to use an energy source to heat homes when there's no-one living nearby. But Bitcoin miners just need an internet connection in order to capitalise on a source, and so benefit from being more mobile and flexible.
Yanis is just so clear in his thinking
Then he should explain why CBDC will roll in if crypto is dead lol.
The poor younger man does not stand a chance against an intellectual heavyweight and economist like Yanis Varoufakis !
If you were Greek you would understand that Varoufakis is just a far left, ultra theoretical narcissistic man who lives in his bubble. He did great damage to our country while being a finances minister during 2015.
yanis is also responsible for billion of dollars lost in greece. Do you really think he is a good economist? He made hundred of thousands of people to suffer from poverty
@@ftwxosmarioss he was not responsible for anything in Greece. When he said he was going to fix Greece's financial problems he got kicked out.
@@chrishart8548 to fix what? He already fucked things up.
@@ftwxosmarioss he wasn't there long enough to fuck things up or powerful enough. The EU fucked Greece over. Greece should have never joined.
I love how crypto fanatics really think that Blockchain is some rocket science groundbreaking stuff, when in fact it’s just digital receipts.
Varoufakis was so right ... the bitcoin guy who is all about decentralization came up with google, bosch and all other mega centralized universal companies around his neck. The paradox
The guy is not a Bitcoin guy.
I will die happy! Yanis Görög and Viktor, a Hungarian, are on the same stage, reflecting on money. 👍👍👍👍👍👍Sory for my unproper English I am a hungarian.👀👀
I like Yanis and believe more people need to hear from him....still not to good debate with amateur Tabori.
But Yanis is so good,to debate him self😁
When they stop valuing crypto in fiat currency, wake me up, I will buy some.Crypto is a fun game.
If valueing crypto in fiat IS stopped, at what price will you buy crypto? There is no price then.
It will be to late, since price would be too high.
Debates styles of these two gentlemen are very different. Mr. Varoufakis is showing the complexity of the matter but his opponent is almost a student style debate arguments at some points. Black/white arguments are boring :) loved hearing this debate
Yanis completely ignored that a major factor for the 1929 crash/bank failures was the fractional reserve nature of the gold back dollar, where the banks print up many times more paper to represent a much smaller supply of physical gold. Had they kept the reserve ratio at 1:1, everyone would have gotten their gold back.
It was never possible for fiat to be backed by gold. If there was a real threat that everyone would turn in their paper for gold the system would have crashed immediately.
Also, he is obscuring the very idea of crypto currencies, making it a national currency for no reason whatsoever. It is not here to replace national currencies but complement them, externalizing the function of storing value in a digital asset.
Nations still have their own currencies. His whole point is moot and hints at dishonest intentions to me personally.
well, the problem wasn't really everyone getting their gold back, the problem was lack of liquidity. Part of the reason the great depression lasted was that people started hoarding gold, so there were less money moving around, slowing down the economy. So yea you could avoid bank failure, just like you can avoid bank failure if you never had banks, but this doesn't prevent the great depression
Regardless of fractional reserve or not. The issue would still have arisen. The government was powerless to stimulate the economy in a fiscal manner. So Yannis is correct, no?.
@@siendbhcixisj Another critical issue was that of leverage in the system. Specifically stock investors were allowed 10x leverage, as compared to just 2x leverage today. Thus huge bubbles were created in the 1920's due to easy money. Had leverage been greatly limited, the decline would have been far more gentle and thus we wouldn't have gotten the Great Depression, however we wouldn't have also had the roaring 20's. It would have been a much more gradual, yet sustainable growth in the economy and stock markets.
One does not simply debate Yanis Varoufakis.
relax this wasn't even a debate. Breedlove, Antonopoulos, Lyn Alden would make this much more interesting. I voted for him but half of the things he says are not applicable and wishful thinking, as always.
Certainly not this child they groomed,
Unfair fight discussing btc from macroeconomic point of view VS technical aspects. Consider having Antonopoulos vs Varoufakis debate on this.
The problem with modern day crypto is that most ppl treat it as an asset class. They have built complex financial products and ecosystems to multiply wealth which is beyond the realm of the common man. It has come to the point that crypto has become just another shadowy asset class, like derivatives.
Blockchain and DeFi though, are things that can and will monumentally change the way we transact and share information. And that is the future we need to look forward to
So we need to give the government full control of the money so that they can solve problems they caused in the first place.
Genius.
🤣🤣🤣
For better or worse, we need to centralize things like currency, so the way in which we centralize is paramount. The current way, is obsolete and the reason for many problems today.
@@edwinvargas7969 We need to centralize why ?
We need Bitcoin
Varoufakis out-classed and intellectually out-performed his debating opponent. I'm not sure if his arguments hit home with the audience.
crypto is DEFINETELLY NOT DEAD...is only the beginning of it and I love it !!!
I always liked Yanis... and today I clearly can say from my deepest heard feeling that I love that man's ideas!
He was a second grade economics professor in Sydney AUSTRALIA and because he was, and still is, a G. Soros stooge he was parachuted into Greece as Finance minister. There he betrayed the Greek people by allowing the economic subjugation of Greece to the oligarchs if EU. Agsin with Doris sponsorship he created his own political party overnight and joined Greek Parliament to be a sycophantic back up to whatever party took power so as to continue the betrayal of Greek Sovereignty. I speak from experience because in a Referendum where 65% of people voted YES to reject EU Memorandums designed to loot the Greek economy he and his Prime Minister Tsipras usurped reversed it and made it a Yes vote. I was there.
@@vasilioskyriakidis2559 the only fact that you seem to ignore how corrupt Greece is makes me wonder why wouldn’t you like him. In Greece even gas for your car you could buy in the black market without paying taxes… and by the way if your story is true that they forged the results to stay in the EU, be happy about it… since otherwise Greece would have suffer even more then they do today.
Greek governments are corrupt and he’s part of it. Don’t understand your love affair with him.
Ignorance has many faces, and ........sentiments.
No matter how smart and clairvoyant Yanis is, he cannot beat Blackrock 😢
I wish this was more of a debate. This was Yannis vs guy who had little intellectual debate capacity.
Yannis vs Saifedean would be a fair fight. What is money? ruclips.net/video/gp4U5aH_T6A/видео.html
Nosferatu should have been even harsher in my opinion.
lol, in a few years, yes I can see it!
Less of a debate more of a conversation tbh, they agreed on a lot of things
GodBless Tabori... But from the perspective of usefulness of Crypto long-term (Not Blockchain) He's discussing with great passion the paint chemistry on the Titanic.
So glad for this. Yanis is basically articulating much better than I ever could and in vastly more detail why I think block chain has possible good applications but not as money. I go more towards smaller communities keeping track of resources etc. Maybe I just listen to so much of him my thinking is getting influence from him. lol
The possible crypto coin investment scams are another great point Yanis brings up against crypto currency. Probably my biggest objection to crypto.
I think Yannis means Bitcoin specifically. Crypto COULD be used as money. In fact, money creation could be democratically governed. Crypto allows this to move beyond the scale of individual nations to potentially a world governed democratically facilitated currency. But yannis is correct in the sense that money cannot be apolitical and the current incarnations of the technology are not designed for this.
@@Mishk Yeah, some form of crypto could just be a more secure form of fiat. He alludes to that at the end. A coin advertised as a decentralized coin to be used in place of a national coin is problematic.
@@Mishk I think he was abundantly clear that money cannot be created democratically while we're still operating in our political and economic structure. De-centralised money when you still have nation states and hard borders is a recipe for chaos.
@@ryankwan1934 Right, as these things work today. All you have to do is only give voting power to governments. One vote per nation state. Btw maybe the United National and other worldwide organizations should use the technology too. It’s a tamper proof. Veto proof. Single power dominating others proof mechanism for decision making.
"Crypto coin investment scams" are CENTRALIZED corruption.
"Crypto" was created to combat CENTRALIZED corruption.
Couldn't they bring a better suited opponent to Varofakis? I just felt I could have answered better and even given Varofakis a bit of a fight. I agree with him on many points, although I think there is a use case for a fixed supply of money as it is not right to say that printing money is necessary sometimes. It is, if we want to keep consumption high and destroy our planet, but do we really? Also cryptocurrency is not directly competing with regular currencies, they are the money of the internet, something Andreas Antonopoulos explain good. The problem with bitcoiners though, is that they are too infused into the tech, like technocrats. Varofakis got a very easy one, good for him.
The difference in the level of oratoric abilities between the two is hard to grasp. I am not even getting into knowledge of economics or how society works. YV is stellar.
It's all show. Yanis would get crushed by a real Bitcoiner. His ideas are intellectually weak and he supports unsound/easy money.
YV is a great orator, but it wouldnt have mattered had they actually gotten someone on who knew they "whys" of bitcoin. the guy they had on is clearly clueless.
@@BigJonkulous You clearly have no idea what a debate is for if you think it's about 'crushing the opponent'. It sounds like MMA is more your kind of world.
In the pandemic, in a fixed-money supply, the government could have increased taxes in order to acquire money, which is effectively what they did with printing money. By doing the latter, all they did was take wealth away from those furthest from the money printer. Money printing solves an issue where there isn't enough money in circulation compared to the number of goods available. But in such circumstances, prices would be *dropping*, not increasing.
Exactly what I’m thinking. Like, how is printing trillions of dollars a good thing? Prices have doubled and my wage stayed the same. Where did the money go? To the rich. Great.
When game theory kills technology - excellent speech by yanis
People that want their money influenced by political decisions can opt into a currency with admin keys. Those who don't, can stay with an uncontrollable currency. I'm in favour of freedom, it's unfortunate that someone as intelligent as Yanis is an open totalitarian.
How do we deal with crises like the great depression or a pandemic if there isn't some authority that can print money in these extraordinary situations. I choose inflation over a great depression any day.
Crypto is thrilling like a rollercoaster but starting a debate on blockchain is like a debate on religion.😂
Exactly. See it’s not about what we want or what we need, It’s about what the government wants and what they need. The government will never use Bitcoin as the main currency because it can’t be inflated, so it isn’t useful for them. Exact reason why we left gold back then, it can’t be inflated.
However… The power of blockchain is inevitable. The major projects are advancing us forward we’ve only touched the surface. We got a long way to go before we master blockchain technology and it demands funds. You will be the investor who will be the first founders of this technology that will eventually rule the human race
December 23rd: 1913
Woodrow Wilson signs the Federal Reserve Act, which had passed Congress just the previous day. This system - called the Aldrich Plan, and promoted by Senator Nelson Aldrich of Rhode Island - gave a monopoly on the creation of dollars to a consortium of large banks.
The Act was passed, by the way, in the name of financial stability.
Gold is money the rest is credit
- Jp morgan 1913
I don't understand why you named the lecture "Crypto is dead" when what you really mean is "Crypto will not replace FIAT."
Do we really want 14 year olds with the equivalent of banking licenses
And do we really need a world where 14 years old needs to worry about that?
The person debating 'in favour' of crypto was simply not at the level required for the debate.
1. Not all cryptos have a fixed non-adjustable supply - for example stablecoins.
2. Not all stablecoins are scams. Collaterised stablecoins work and do not need a centralised authority overseeing the reserves. Uncollaterised stablecoins are more complex but can work. LUNA is not the only stablecoin design.
Yanis is essentially arguing for crypto and saying it hasn't yet found a compelling usecase. One compeling usecase *is* stablecoins.
Yanis scoped current state, but missed the plot. Tabori unfortunately doesn't seem to grasp the potential scope. It's like an argument about the past.
Exactly. Nobody in that room understands what they are dealing with. It's a sad reality of the crypto space that almost none of the participants have the right framing, even the serious people are involved for entirely misguided ideological reasons. And the tragedy of the skeptics is that even though their arguments are mostly correct, they are still completely wrong. Everything seems useless if you are looking at it upside down.
1. No mention of Store of value - what better then fast transportable "e-gold" that you can conceal? 2. Market cap high was 3 trillion - 1/4 of of gold. So why not reaching gold in 5-10 years and volatility dropping significantly? 3. Money = belief and belief is growing. Younger generation invests more. The generational transfer of money will result in much more crypto holdings. 4. No central control = cannot be killed by just one country or even group of countries. 5. Some cryptos are commodities vs others are like securities. That brings different meaning to them and discussion should include that.
Yanis can’t imagine it because he is fundamentally a statist.
And the opponent for Yanis is an engineer... because of course he is. Engineers (in recent years particularly in IT/ComputerScience) have become increasingly myopic. Yanis on the other hand, like a true Greek intellectual, is always mindful of first principles which act as an excellent defense against unfounded conclusions. That combined with a vast wealth of knowledge makes him a formidable debate opponent.
Just because the PRICE of Bitcoin is high doesn't necessarily means that its VALUE is high; Where's the VALUE of Bitcoin coming from?
Speculation, blackmail, fraud, money laundering, basically.
The value is in the fact that there is a network, in which anyone can send and recieve money without asking anyone for permission to join the network and without being able to be access denied, censored, racially profiled, your money being confiscated or inflated away by the state. It’s a trustless network. This means you can interact with anyone in the network whithout having to trust that person to not do a refund of sending you fake money. These are just some of the many characteristics that make Bitcoin valuable.
From market. Sellers and buyers define price.
Yanis is part of the occult 4 industrial revolution, green energy and bullshit. Yeah that's it
I need to do some research on this, but I am convinced that it was not the gold standard, but the speculation on wall street and the fractional reserve banking that caused the the Great Depression.
It's just like CDO's today. Even if you
have a sound asset at the bottom, if you sell more of it, then there is and mix it with bad investments, you're gonna have a problem.
The Great Depression was caused by a combination of factors, including the gold standard, speculation on Wall Street, and fractional reserve banking. The gold standard limited the ability of governments to respond to economic downturns by printing money, while speculation on Wall Street and fractional reserve banking created an unstable financial system that was vulnerable to collapse.
Reading about people grabbing multi figures monthly as income in investment even in this crazy days in the market, any pointers on how to make substantial progress in earnings? would be appreciated.
Investing in assets is the code for having a successful financial life, investing with the right expert would free you from modern financial slavery.
Investing in crypto now is really cool especially with the current price in the market for now
I wanted to trade crypto but got confused by the fluctuations in price
The fluctuations of the market only affect those that hodl coins, but traders makes money on both sides, when it's bearish they go short when it's bullish they go long... The best strategy to use in trading crypto is to trade with a professional, like Fergus waylen he understand the market quite well, that way maximum profits are guaranteed.
I'm honestly surprised that this name is being mentioned here, I stumbled upon one of his clients testimony last two months in CNBC world news and decided to try him out...I'm Expecting my third cashout in 2days
Oh I remember him, Mr Waylen, a brilliant market enthusiast with new strategies. I signed up on his platform some months back, it has been productive for me
This debate was just a scratch on the surface it would be great to hear Yannis discuss it with someone that has a deeper interest in the speculations of crypto and where it can lead.
Yanis has a confidence that is covering over the gaps in his knowledge
Everything differs in magnitude, not in kind.
The difference between right and wrong is how much.
Reasoning is abstract, but never do things for abstract reasons.
Thanks you Yanis for the help. The bitcoin maximalists needs you in this kind of debates. 😅
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Yannis, we will talk about it when USD collapses. Money is what people choose it to be and the argument that the printer should always be at hand is what led us in the current situation. Post predatory capitalism is around the corner and hopefully a better form will replace that. If Yannis took to the stage Max Keiser he would be destroyed.
I agree with you. There is a PDF around Internet called "Modern Money Mechanics". It says that money is what we mean it to be. Crypto is already changing small nations. Take Argentina for instance: you either carry a bag of FIAT to buy empanadas or simply uses crypto dollar everywhere. Can you dig it?
What people choose it to be, but also what the state chooses to collect the taxes in... The state can inforce a lot. Because people need the state, whether we like it or not
When usd collapses so does bitcoin you fuul! How do you "buy" the bitcoin? The fact that bitcoin is still pegging to usd speaks for itself.
@@RooseveltCoopling no
I still don't understand, why most of the people will opt in to use unregulated, non-insured, non-backed by government, volatile currency, vs. a regulated, more stable official government currency. The risk is too high. Only idealists will do that (put all their assets in crypto).
I want this debate to have not a crypto bro but someone poor who has lost a lot of money on the crypto grift.
why would you want someone who cant even read a damn chart and bought the top of the everything bubble express his opinions ? BTC is still up 350% from the pandemic lows fyi
You want someone who FOMOs in and was unlikely to have done their research
What's the utility? What are the most important use cases?
Yanis is fast and smart
Difference between official fiat currencies & Bitcoins & other cryptos created out of thin air, is that currencies are backed and regulated by gov'ts. National currencies such as USD, Euro, Yuan, aren't constantly being promoted as an investment asset in itself. Furthermore, USD, Euro earns interest for people who keeps them.
I believe that it is very difficult to game the system if money is in-elastic!! This is why they decoupled the dollar from gold. After this action the rich became richer , the poor became poorer, and inflation has been going up ever since!! Now its time we pay the Piper.
This is why bitcoin maximalists exist.
Don’t you just love listening to Yanis? Great man👌
"It is no different whether you're oppressed by the governmant or by Google, Facebook and so on. "
(not exact quote)
I love how he put it. So many people notice the state oppression but never speak or realize the oppression by big megacorporations.
I'd say it's quite different. If you get pissed of by government enough you can assemble and overthrow it. The way that Google or Facebook are doing it is basically making it impossible to live out of their bubble and overthrowing them isn't even ever come on anybody's mind. They are basically enslaving the government system that serves us yet in non transparent way making it impossible for average folk to connect the dots. Thus what will end up people might get pissed of by government will overthrow it but the new government will still be serves to Google and Facebook.
Hard disagree. They are still subject to competition in a free market. Even if they look like monopolies here and now.
ChatGPT for example has deprecated 2 decades of Google's competitive advantage.
Unlike the state who actually has the power to oppress because it has monopoly on violence. No company has that.
@@highvoltagee It doesn't matter which company it is, (almost/ 99.99%)all companies under capitalism are exploitative and hence oppressive
@@КЛИН-е2з Wrong. Consumers can make any company fail, anytime, by not choosing their product. A free market allows anybody to copy any company's product, and citizens to choose among many alternatives. Citizens choose who lives and who dies.
Yanis is great and the only point I disagree with him on is when he says that those with more ETH dictate the direction of Ethereum's development. This isn't true, Ethereum does not have token governance.
Yanis is my intellectual crush
I can be your crash, but first you are my crash, since not a lot of girls are following him. :) huge respect. Do you attend any kind of meetups for intellectual topics like this?
bro calm down😂😂😂
The guy got owned. Seriously he didn't bring any argument, even the good ones. Yanis had to do double jobs. He listed good and bad for you, whatta guy
@@domenicochirico9787 It was kinda like a deer in the headlights moment for Tabori. When your own debate opponent has to advise you on which arguments to make from an economic and social point of view--ouch.
They don't need to play with the supply of money, they can increase taxation and get the money that way.
This video is the funeral of cryptocurrency !
this was easily one of the most informative + inspiring things I've ever seen, I've just finished watching it for the 2nd time, and I'm really excited to now get the book, Yanis' references to the late 1700s are a terribly relevant example from recent-ish history, so powerful to think we may be on the brink of undoing the current cloud-shackles -
I'm really grateful to be able to have access to the thoughts of incredible thinkers around history/economics/revolutionary ideas like this, it's really exciting to think we're potentially only one small revolution away from a far more equitable social situation, given how "globalised" the world asserts to being... it really sounds possible that enough people can agree around the world.. that we don't want to be cloud serfs, maybe more that we want to have a share of the profits being sourced from technological growth.
no longer should the risks be socialised with profits privatised, the more people that learn this key human right the better I think. thank you yanis, pls i rly hope that people see the sense in this information..
they should have invited Saifedean to defend Bitcoin
This joker Yanis wouldn’t stand a chance towards that personality…
@@GeorgeHashesThoughts completely agree. good for us bitcoiners that these people exist. gives us time to accumulate more before the world realises what bitcoin is!
Exactly, he would destroy this fiat propagandist
Exactly !!! That would have been a better debate
I love Yanis, the world would be a much better place for all, if we could live according to his advice
Wrong ! he's a scammer and liar ...
Ethereum developer and political theory student here. Varoufakis has always been a goat. Pleasantly surprised he has the openness to engage on this. What I do hate however is that the left, broadly, always seems to be reactionary when it comes to potentially page shifting technologies. Hope to see DAO powered labor unions and political parties soon. WIP
Bitcoin bros silently crying
Any learned austrian economist who understands bitcoin’s significance could debunk this fool’s fiat propaganda with a few arguments about praxeology and time preference.
Damn it, we're still confusing Bitcoin and Crypto to this day...
Bitcoin is obviously a cryptocurrency. A useless one, but one none the less.
Yanis is so brave to interrupt Norse body-builder.😆
🤣
He is quite fit himself If I might say so.
Yanis is probably part of a leftist biker-gang
One problem: Any FIAT money contains the temptation for the respective state to just print a little more in case they are out of their budget, but need a little more import goods without paying as much for it. Today nearly every currency in history has fallen for this and eventually ceased to exist because of it somewhere in the future. But for Bitcoin that temptation simply does not exist and nobody has any interest in devaluating Bitcoins.
As soon the people will learn that Bitcoin is no way of keeping one's fortunes over a long time Bitcoin will land where it belongs: as a medium to do business with.
Right now we still can watch every existing currency slowly losing it's value, just a few percent every year - until it eventually can only be used as wallpaper. And all that inflation steals values from the people.
The moderator tried so hard to keep the audience entertained
Tabori clearly out of his league here.
Varoufakis made some very good points, but i did expect much more from him.
Especially when arguing about why money should be inflationary / deflationary.
Simply because tech improves, so more goods can be produced in the same amount of time.
The universe has, for us, 2 main "coins": Energy and Time (there are others, but not too relevant here).
Another main mistake by Varoufakis was he mentioned 1923 and the collapse of the USA market as the only example of an un-elastic FIAT economy.
NO !! We had that for millenia, when Gold (and silver) were the only means of measuring "wealth" and these were used as money.
As nations simply couldn't have more Gold, people remained poor for millenia.
Unless, you had something to trade that was unique and difficult to copy, hence the 300,000 types of plants cultivated in Europe each adapted to their location soil type etc... this is why sterile flowers are profitable plus they flower more... if someone could bring back the plant from the celery family that we drove to extinction, through its use as currency, and ability as a contraception for men and women, and breed in sterility, they would be a very wealthy person, provided they could produce viable seed themselves and keep secret exactly how much they have.... hence governments and bankers and fiat.... its a mafia... or more politely cabal. But don't bite the hand that feeds you, unless you can feed yourself.
The title of the video is so misleading it's a pure shame, especially when participants literally declaring that "Crypto is Alive". 🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀
It's click bait. Maybe they should have put it in quotes "Crypto is dead".
Who am I to argue with Yanis, but who said that Bitcoin was money? For example, the US Securities and Exchange Commission has defined Bitcoin as a "Commodity", the same as Gold, which many compare it to. I think he should have been arguing whether or not Bitcoin is a good store of value.
Instructive and useful debate/conversation. Young people should be commended for trying to come up with innovative solutions. Older folks should guide them as to the applications of such inventions. Yanis is correct here. Crypto is nothing but a Ponzi, more or less, while Blockchain is a perfect solution for a yet to materialized problem, again more or less. IMHO
Here's the next pill for you: Everything's a ponzi.
Like the WEF, for Instance?
Can you give timestamps where Yanis supposedly called it a "Ponzi"?
You can not, because he didn't. Stop making stuff up.
@@inversebrah Thanks for the laughs, Avi. I commend your passion. If I may, however, point out a small detail. There was a period between those 2 sentences. Perhaps hard to see on a small screen. I understand ^^
@@donjuan3296 Shhh... LOL ;)
The title of this video is very misleading and of course for clickbait reasons.
The actual content and conversation is very good.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
Then you go to prison for 15 years.
this was the most painful debate I've seen in a long time, crypto guys inexperience with public speaking, seguing into long irrelevant explanations about crypto (a symptom of nerdiness which I recognize in myself), yanis getting actually pissed but the crypto guy also failing to stand up for himself with adequate vigor. It's like a nightmare about public speaking, irrelevant of the actual subject.
Also did you know you can make smart contract in BTC network?... Also did you know we dont pretend everyone uses BTC as money. Use it as you wish. That is why it is decentralized. You can use it to store your documents at a very expensive rate too!
YF is pretty clear and correct in his statements about why Crypto can't be money (and shouldn't be). The tech is really interesting, valuable, and undoubtedly applicable in many spheres, but not as money. Frankly, he debates incredibly well because no matter how complicated the topic, he can make it accessible to even the clueless. Crypto bros are unable to make the specific nature and general usefulness of crypto all that comprehensible even to the quite brilliant and interested. They then try to strengthen the argument for crypto (ironically to the listener) by what amounts to an ad hominem argument against the intellect of the listener him/her self..."You don't get it because it's awesome...trust me you moron"! LOL!
I mean, they brought on an engineer and he explained things in engineering terms. Here is a bitcoiner economist explaining money ruclips.net/video/gp4U5aH_T6A/видео.html
Or alternatively, the ‘tech’ has been around for going on 14 years now and there just arent any actual non circular use cases. Best case is that its a solution in search of a problem.
Reality is that crypto has completely failed as currency which was its originally intended use case. Since then its been rebranded and dressed up in loads of bullshit and empty promises by criminals and grifters that make Madoff look tame by comparison.
Could not have put it better!
YF argument of why crypto can't be money is flawed because he still uses Bitcoin as his frame of reference. There are many currencies where supply is no deflationary as in Bitcoin, and you can print more money when needed. The fact he still uses that as his frame of reference show how limited his thinking about money is.
there's plenty of cryptos where supply is programmable, he doesn't even mention this.
So crypto CAN be money BUT governments will try to not allow this but otherwise it CAN be!
He also didnt discuss a bunch of types of consensus mechanisms (eg, proof of work, proof of stake, proof funds, proof of liquidity etc etc) and that these are constantly being tweaked to avoid "private centralisation" as well as government centralisation.
As long as it's possible to manipulate a type of money, it will be done. Wrong to think that bitcoin is flawed because it cannot be 'adjusted'. It's the only way to prevent manipulation.
I love this discussion. It is the first time that I watch a debate between a strong economist and a crypto guru (who thinks that crypto will revolution the world).
It is very annoying to hear crypto people thinking that some lines of codes can explain economics which a social science. People behaviours can never be explained with line of codes.
I love the part where he explains to the guy why stable coin are shit coins actually.
U fail to understand blockchain. get educated then voice your opinion. You don’t even know how money works.
@@rnd1sir347 your comment proves that you
1) you didn't watch the debate
2) you have serious comprehension issue (2 digits iq probably)
3) you are confusing cryptocurrencies and Blockchain
U said crypto and blockchain? It is i confuse hahahahhahah ok bro ok
Also get educated on stable coins how they are minted what they are whats their utility or dont talk. Get educated.
@@rnd1sir347 go explain this to Yanis.
Don t just hide here and try to explain shits and nonsenses.
Stable coin are shitcoins they are his words and he is right.
Now the phone has gone from communicating with far off individuals to transacting with them peer to peer. And crypto coins allow for 'value' to be cited and incorporated into the transaction. Presto! No bank banking.
Every time the blockchain/bitcoin geniuses try to debate really smart scientists/economists/politicians etc.... they're always getting destroyed. It's sad to see young people have no ability to understand and acknowledge their own limitations. Humility is at 0.
Clearly Yannis is more experienced debating in front of an audience but he did not come across as a nice guy. Some of his arguments were completely or partly wrong or were ment to ridicule his opponent. I believe Yannis is just too much of the political establishment to really take us crypto folk serious. And it's true in the great scheme of things, we are pretty much insignificant. Now! We gotta be patient.
No, I disagree with you! The US CURRENCY "money" was replaced in 1913 which resulted in the 1929. Irresponsible Governments remove the consequences of financial responsibility. Fiat money will always fail.