my favorite thing is that no matter how long its been, no matter what site youre on - youtube, reddit, twitter, whatever - if you bring up the controls vs strategy fight, people will _still_ argue over who was right, a decade after that video aired.
Utilizing the metaphor of Evolution: Jon Wins. Jon simply learned faster using the same amount of tools, and in the same amount of time as Arin. Jon should absolutely be rewarded for that. Arin is still correct in the sense of having a "Fair competition" on his & Jon's show: Games Grumps VS... But since Jon was a co-owner at the time (and the owners make up the rules to their shows...) Jon Wins even still.
I agree with Jon this time. I understand with Arin saying how both players need to know the rules for it to be fair. But landing on the ledge wasnt a rule of the game, Jon didnt know about it beforehand he just figured it out during the game.
but it’s an integral part of the game, you simply cannot win without that mechanic. why would i want to play a game against somebody who has 0 chance to beat me and it’s not based on my skill? it’s like TOO much of an advantage and defeats the purpose of the entire game
@Youngapollo47 If he just told him, he wouldn't need to figure it out. Thus invalidating the earned advantage of being the first one to learn something new. Arin has the knowledge of the new tech, and shouldn't get the benefit of being told how until the contest is complete.
I’m siding with Jon. Allow me to polish Arin’s baseball analogy. Imagine team A has a pitcher that can throw a curveball every time. Team B’s pitchers asks him “hey, how do you do that?” The opponent responds “I’m not telling you that.” It’s not that Arin is ignorant of the rules. He’s ignorant of the controls. You don’t say it’s unfair if team A’s pitcher has a skill that the opposing pitcher lacks. Clearly B is doing something wrong so he comes up short. Same with Arin.
Being a able to throw a curve ball is a a technique. Being able to pitch the ball at all is an integral skill you need to know to even play the game. Knowing how to time the landing back on the edge isn't a technique, skill, or "strategy". It's basic mechanic required to play the game.
@@StephonZeno I wouldn’t say “required.” I mean, imagine if neither of them knew how to do it? It would be fair then. But because Jon can and Arin can’t, Jon wind inevitably. But I recall him saying he didn’t know how he was doing it. Maybe I’m misremembering something, I don’t know. But I do see the point you’re making.
@@HadenDA_sort_of It is required though. If you don't know how to properly land, you've pretty much already lost. Jon's "strategy" was just knowing the basic controls and rules of the game, but not telling the other player because somehow that would give *them* the advantage. And I don't buy Jon not knowing how he did it. I'm sure he was just screwing with Arin.
I never really noticed that Jon mentioned that they had played this before same day but the capture failed....I think I'm with Arin generally here....I've flipflopped a few times about it Ultimately I vibe the most with Jon's later take on it when he looked back on it in that Sonic '06 pt 94 episode, where it was douchey not to tell Arin, but if it was a "real" competition he wouldn't.....but in that sense, like if it were a genuine competition there would be a moderator/referee that could've smoothed things over, that's what a "real" competition would look like I think
I agree with Jon here, mostly because the same thing happened to me with my friends. I was playing halo reach swords with them and figured out a faster way to use the sword (melee button then fire button) and they all screamed “HOW?!?” and it was very satisfying. They still have no idea how to use the energy sword.
It's a 50/50 chance of me agreeing with Arin on anything, but I totally sided with him here. Refusing to tell someone about an integral game mechanic, means they've lost before the game even begins. That's not strategy, it's just being a dick.
To me, this is a thing where I can SEE where Jon is coming from, and, maybe in some more real competitive scenarios, I would say he's more in the right.... But, like, this is a friendly fucking game lmao he should have just told him just cause it's a silly goofy ass snes game. He's wrong here not because his logic is flawed inherently, as some games and some instances that would totally make sense, but because it's a stupid game that they are playing together, he should just fucking tell him so they can keep at it and play.
@@tonyawwwno3364 He kept referring to landing as a "strategy". No Jon... Knowing a basic game mechanic is not strategy. The way you apply that mechanic is. This is like playing against someone in Smash Bros. and leaving them in the dark about stage recoveries, dodge rolling, and smash attacks because you "don't want to give them an advantage". I prefer the Jon era of GG over the Danny era any day, but Jon could be such a brat at times...
@@StephonZeno his main point, imo, is that his discovering the mechanics and controls of the game that they both started at a zero point at is a fair advantage since he discovered it himself and, therefore, Arin could just as sensibly discovered it himself. In that instance, him telling Arin would have Arin get "key knowledge" in an assisted manner. Like I said, as a general statement, in SOME instances and situations, specifically more competitive stuff, I COULD see an argument where I would agree. Again, that being said, he was being a brat here. this was NOT that competitive and he should have just told him just to keep going with the game lmao
in any game ever, there's a difference between skill and knowing the rules/controls. in any game ever, it's important everyone has all the controls and rules as soon as possible, SO THAT we can get to differentiating people by their skill and strategy. imagine playing chess against someone who doesn't know the rules of chess. the victory would be hollow.
you know what's not in any game ever? establishing that you both know the controls before playing. like in this case. then learning the controls relies on skill and instinct. jons right
@@StVincentASMR are you suggesting that, like in athletic sports, two FRIENDS playing a video game CASUALLY, should reasonably be expected to have practiced the game a lot beforehand? no, you have to admit it's just lame for a friend to win by not telling you the controls. we're not in middle school. that behavior is cringe af. the better experience is, the two friends learn the game TOGETHER and are on a "team against the game" even if they are technically competing.
@@westingtyler1 no if you'll turn your brain on I'm suggesting that skill and controls isn't separate when playing a new game in a casual setting unless established. and that behavior isn't cringe af, it falls in line with the premise of the show
@@StVincentASMR yeah, i think I've made my position clear that knowing the rules and controls is something everybody should be nice enough to share with each other and is not the kind of skill that shold matter, especially in a friendly game among friens. if my friend had the attitude jon does in this video - which legit is something i've not seen since middle school, I'd probably stop hanging out with them. it's just being a decent friend, and I hope someday you agree and expect more from your friends, too.
@@westingtyler1 sucks to be you then because my friend group isn't sensitive and fragile like you. it's fun to compete in this way and I'll say it again since you're not listening, the show is premised on not being a hug box gamer like you
He should've told em the controls. I get both arguments but cmon. Teach em the buttons and beat him straight up. Lol still feel this way 10 years later.
I think im team Arin on this one. Sure it's a competition but it's a competition between friends and it's unsportsmanlike to withhold information on how the game function from a friend just because you figured out which button to push first. Surely Arin was playing up his reaction for the sake of the video because it's not that serious but in any other context i'd consider Jon to be a major asshole, although I understand his point I just don't think it's very good.
my favorite thing is that no matter how long its been, no matter what site youre on - youtube, reddit, twitter, whatever - if you bring up the controls vs strategy fight, people will _still_ argue over who was right, a decade after that video aired.
Arin was right, but Jon was funny
If Jon told him the controls we would have never had this amazing moment so I will allow it 👍 The comment section has spoken.
Still a bitch-made move
“Let big words small people.” -Jon Jafari, 2013
"Aggro Crag wait for you is he's."
- Jon Jafari
47:22 All because....you wouldn't tell me how to FUCKING LAAAAND!!!
permament spine damage
back when game grumps was actually game grumps in the slightest
*EPISODE TIMESTAMPS*
0:00 The Trial of the Century
11:39 Dangling from the Ceiling
22:31 I Don't Have It
34:40 Finale
2:00 arin is so right about this and people seem to have forgotten about this aesthetic
IKR! I felt like I was crazy when Jon said he had no idea what Arin was talking about!
Thanks again for this!
Never give out the controls willingly! Live and let die (or lose to bring the heat down a bit)
1:57
Buttox's Shameful 2 And A Half Minutes Of Gameplay
Utilizing the metaphor of Evolution: Jon Wins.
Jon simply learned faster using the same amount of tools, and in the same amount of time as Arin.
Jon should absolutely be rewarded for that.
Arin is still correct in the sense of having a "Fair competition" on his & Jon's show: Games Grumps VS... But since Jon was a co-owner at the time (and the owners make up the rules to their shows...) Jon Wins even still.
an absolute classic, so sad to watch this then watch a new GG video.
I agree with Jon this time. I understand with Arin saying how both players need to know the rules for it to be fair. But landing on the ledge wasnt a rule of the game, Jon didnt know about it beforehand he just figured it out during the game.
but it’s an integral part of the game, you simply cannot win without that mechanic. why would i want to play a game against somebody who has 0 chance to beat me and it’s not based on my skill? it’s like TOO much of an advantage and defeats the purpose of the entire game
@Youngapollo47 If he just told him, he wouldn't need to figure it out. Thus invalidating the earned advantage of being the first one to learn something new. Arin has the knowledge of the new tech, and shouldn't get the benefit of being told how until the contest is complete.
@@sky_pirate Cheating isn't an "earned" advantage. Jon played the game ahead of time to cheat an advantage.
@@cgman1940 They both played ahead of time.
Didn’t need to tell him the controls if you figure it out yourself.
I dropped the screw in the tuna!!
I’m siding with Jon. Allow me to polish Arin’s baseball analogy.
Imagine team A has a pitcher that can throw a curveball every time. Team B’s pitchers asks him “hey, how do you do that?”
The opponent responds “I’m not telling you that.”
It’s not that Arin is ignorant of the rules. He’s ignorant of the controls. You don’t say it’s unfair if team A’s pitcher has a skill that the opposing pitcher lacks. Clearly B is doing something wrong so he comes up short. Same with Arin.
Being a able to throw a curve ball is a a technique. Being able to pitch the ball at all is an integral skill you need to know to even play the game. Knowing how to time the landing back on the edge isn't a technique, skill, or "strategy". It's basic mechanic required to play the game.
@@StephonZeno I wouldn’t say “required.” I mean, imagine if neither of them knew how to do it? It would be fair then. But because Jon can and Arin can’t, Jon wind inevitably. But I recall him saying he didn’t know how he was doing it. Maybe I’m misremembering something, I don’t know. But I do see the point you’re making.
@@HadenDA_sort_of It is required though. If you don't know how to properly land, you've pretty much already lost. Jon's "strategy" was just knowing the basic controls and rules of the game, but not telling the other player because somehow that would give *them* the advantage. And I don't buy Jon not knowing how he did it. I'm sure he was just screwing with Arin.
42:41 *HHHCOHCSHIT~*
32:22
I never really noticed that Jon mentioned that they had played this before same day but the capture failed....I think I'm with Arin generally here....I've flipflopped a few times about it
Ultimately I vibe the most with Jon's later take on it when he looked back on it in that Sonic '06 pt 94 episode, where it was douchey not to tell Arin, but if it was a "real" competition he wouldn't.....but in that sense, like if it were a genuine competition there would be a moderator/referee that could've smoothed things over, that's what a "real" competition would look like I think
I prefer the Jon era of GG, but he could be such a brat sometimes...
I agree with Jon here, mostly because the same thing happened to me with my friends. I was playing halo reach swords with them and figured out a faster way to use the sword (melee button then fire button) and they all screamed “HOW?!?” and it was very satisfying. They still have no idea how to use the energy sword.
There's a difference between a basic game mechanic and an exploit.
If you cheat you didn't win, simple as.
Aggro Crag wait for you is he’s
It's a 50/50 chance of me agreeing with Arin on anything, but I totally sided with him here. Refusing to tell someone about an integral game mechanic, means they've lost before the game even begins. That's not strategy, it's just being a dick.
To me, this is a thing where I can SEE where Jon is coming from, and, maybe in some more real competitive scenarios, I would say he's more in the right.... But, like, this is a friendly fucking game lmao he should have just told him just cause it's a silly goofy ass snes game. He's wrong here not because his logic is flawed inherently, as some games and some instances that would totally make sense, but because it's a stupid game that they are playing together, he should just fucking tell him so they can keep at it and play.
@@tonyawwwno3364 He kept referring to landing as a "strategy". No Jon... Knowing a basic game mechanic is not strategy. The way you apply that mechanic is. This is like playing against someone in Smash Bros. and leaving them in the dark about stage recoveries, dodge rolling, and smash attacks because you "don't want to give them an advantage". I prefer the Jon era of GG over the Danny era any day, but Jon could be such a brat at times...
@@StephonZeno his main point, imo, is that his discovering the mechanics and controls of the game that they both started at a zero point at is a fair advantage since he discovered it himself and, therefore, Arin could just as sensibly discovered it himself. In that instance, him telling Arin would have Arin get "key knowledge" in an assisted manner. Like I said, as a general statement, in SOME instances and situations, specifically more competitive stuff, I COULD see an argument where I would agree.
Again, that being said, he was being a brat here. this was NOT that competitive and he should have just told him just to keep going with the game lmao
31:44
in any game ever, there's a difference between skill and knowing the rules/controls. in any game ever, it's important everyone has all the controls and rules as soon as possible, SO THAT we can get to differentiating people by their skill and strategy. imagine playing chess against someone who doesn't know the rules of chess. the victory would be hollow.
you know what's not in any game ever? establishing that you both know the controls before playing. like in this case. then learning the controls relies on skill and instinct. jons right
@@StVincentASMR are you suggesting that, like in athletic sports, two FRIENDS playing a video game CASUALLY, should reasonably be expected to have practiced the game a lot beforehand?
no, you have to admit it's just lame for a friend to win by not telling you the controls. we're not in middle school. that behavior is cringe af. the better experience is, the two friends learn the game TOGETHER and are on a "team against the game" even if they are technically competing.
@@westingtyler1 no if you'll turn your brain on I'm suggesting that skill and controls isn't separate when playing a new game in a casual setting unless established. and that behavior isn't cringe af, it falls in line with the premise of the show
@@StVincentASMR yeah, i think I've made my position clear that knowing the rules and controls is something everybody should be nice enough to share with each other and is not the kind of skill that shold matter, especially in a friendly game among friens. if my friend had the attitude jon does in this video - which legit is something i've not seen since middle school, I'd probably stop hanging out with them. it's just being a decent friend, and I hope someday you agree and expect more from your friends, too.
@@westingtyler1 sucks to be you then because my friend group isn't sensitive and fragile like you. it's fun to compete in this way and I'll say it again since you're not listening, the show is premised on not being a hug box gamer like you
3:30 32:08
30:00
He should've told em the controls. I get both arguments but cmon. Teach em the buttons and beat him straight up. Lol still feel this way 10 years later.
Because it’s a SNES game and the controls were in the box/booklet that the game came in.
@Frogger I'm just telling you where the controls to the game were moron.
No + You're gay + Ratio.
@Frogger you've got issues dude
Its like if two guys had guns and one of them had the safety on and he didnt know how to take it off
Jon really showed his hand with that name choice.
Yeah it showed how based he was
I think im team Arin on this one. Sure it's a competition but it's a competition between friends and it's unsportsmanlike to withhold information on how the game function from a friend just because you figured out which button to push first. Surely Arin was playing up his reaction for the sake of the video because it's not that serious but in any other context i'd consider Jon to be a major asshole, although I understand his point I just don't think it's very good.
I’m 100,000% on the side of jon
They were so high!
Bruh
22:10 aged well lol