@@MenTaLLyMenTaL 5:03 there are three colors. Green, yellow, and red. Green then became blue. But I think you would still confuse red and yellow? Stationary has YY on the top and GG/BB on the bottom. Moving has RY on the top, and RG/RB on the bottom. Hope that helps anyone in the future.
> Get Thumb Ring when preparing for archer wars, as they're mostly stationary targets or, if microed, would make you miss even with Ballistics > Get Ballistics when preparing to fight infantry and most of all cavalry.
+landochabod7 It's still situational, if you had to get only one, vs infantry or cavalry the optimal would be to get thumb ring and stack your ranged units in a corner or choke, only a small amount of melee units can attack that way and all of your units are getting free dps vs units standing there, so thumb ring in that case would be much better. Also archers are more likely to be micro'd by humans, moving between shots etc so thumb ring will make you miss a lot more in that case and ballistics would likely be better. So honestly I'd say it should be the other way around if you ask me.
+Pete (Pete26196) I think at close range it's harder to miss anyway, so if that's the plan I'd rather have a few more archers than either tech. Unless it's cavalry archer, in which case Bloodlines all the way. I would say Thumb Ring is more about cavalry archers too, as they have short range and poor default accuracy but can use their mobility to put themselves in good firing positions. One example is right behind a woodline, cutting villagers' retreat to the town center so that they'll have to move parallel to their arrows and get hit even without Ballistics. This I think is more about buildings, ships and long-range units such as longbowmen and to some extent archers and skirmishers, who are more stationary and sometimes can only find perpendicularly-moving targets, the ones you *have* to lead. So yeah, they're situational, but I think there is a general guideline. However I usually find myself getting Ballistics first anyway, as gold is cheap in early Castle while food and wood are very much needed to boom.
+landochabod7 bloodlines before thumb ring? Assuming we're talking a scenario were you didn't research it before hitting castle and don't use other cavalry, and purely look at the techs effect on cav archers, thumb ring is much better. Kind of like how you get fletching before padded archer armor(though the range is also a big factor there). Of course its more expensive too, as we'd expect when comparing a feudal tech to a castle tech. Basically you're getting ~40% more survivability with bloodlines and a comparable increase in damage with thumb ring. Archer's are not supposed to take melee hits, especially not cav archers(considering their cost and applied bonus damage), so damage is preferred from a pure cav archer oriented viewpoint. Of course you'd usually not go for cav archers without any other cavalry, specially not with a stable required for bloodlines, but in a hypothetical situation a civ with perfect cav archers save bloodlines has worse cav archers than a civ with perfect cav archers save thumb ring. Also booming is not the only castle strat. For a hun(the main civ that would use cav archers before AK) cav archer+knight start, you would usually postpone your booming to hit your opponent hard, potentially closing the game then and there. Not to mention rushes(though they usually don't use cav archers).
+SmellyDelicious I think we agree Thumb Ring is crucial for cav archers. However, until you have Ballistics as well it might actually be better for them to spread their arrows and score at least some hits, rather than "missing with 100% accuracy" as SotL puts it. I mean when killing villagers, not against other military units. About Bloodlines, my point was simply that it's so cheap I always get it immediately. I'm not sold on the comparison with fletching vs paddled armor as cav archers take high bonus damage from trash, for which the armor doesn't really help but 20 more hit points do. And yes, I know there are other strategies beside booming, but I believe mining gold is more efficient than farming and woodcutting (considering some of that wood goes on farms), and especially so in late Feudal / early Castle.
i had an eagle warrior run through an enemy base that was filled with chu ko nu and castles and i think towers anyway he didnt have ballistics and my eagle ran away with only a little damage done after they shot like a million arrows at him he basically left a track of arrows it was fun
i think 4:21 is a classic demonstration of the difference between "precision" and "accuracy". Thumb ring makes them 100% precise, but if they're always going to hit behind the enemies then they're not accurate at all.
Micro against player without ballistics: move sideways while arrows are in the air. Micro against player with ballistics: change direction after arrows are fired. If you assume your opponent has ballistics you could take more hits by walking back into the line of fire, so ballistics can backfire too.
Love this video especially the details on how exactly thumbring increases fire rate! I think this would be a great vid to remaster like you have been for some other older videos lately. I’m sure some things have changed since DE and all the patches or even just adding the new units.
The thing I love the most about these videos is the fact that these videos are prime examples about how much depth Age of Empires 2 really has. It's actually quite mind blowing to see that a game that first came out almost 2 decades ago has this much things you can learn and depth in general. There's not that many other games you can say the same about. A masterpiece of a game. Also big thanks for making these videos. :)
You should do a video covering the details about garrisoning units - what units are best, most cost efficient, what is the optimal number, damage bonuses, etc... I think that would be interesting.
Perfect analysis. I was already aware of the effects of all, but now that you have included numeric it became like a different point of view. Nice video.
I never thought much about Thumb Ring before but it makes sense now. I never really payed attention to what it actually did, but on the surface, the wording makes it sound like it is redundant with Ballistics. However, it is another example of the devs miss labeling things. Ballistics affect accuracy Thumb Ring affects precision It would make a lot more sense if they changed the wording.
From Wikipedia: "Tzilacatzin was a Tlatelolca warrior. A member of the Otomi or Otontin warrior class, he became famous as a hero during the Siege of Tenochtitlan (...) The Spaniards focused their fire on Tzilacatzin but he cleverly evaded it" - those kind of things will happen to you if you don't research ballistics.
The units that seem to benefit more from the increased fire rate seem to be the ones that had a slow fire rate to begin with. You are looking at changes in percentages, maybe there's an absolute increase in fire rate, that way percentagewise it'd benefit the slower ones? Do you still have the numbers to check that? I'm curious :)
Nah, it's hard coded that units get varying bonuses from Thumb Ring. the upgrade itself is like, +17%, but some units get -17% on top of it which cancels it out.
It's actually much more apt to describe it as precision rather than accuracy. It it were 100% accurate, it would hit the target intended every time; if it were 100% precise, then it would hit the same point (even if it misses the target) every time.
I really liked the intro style from the 'Hole in the wall' vid, but this one is growing on me with the news clips and such. Anyway, amazing vid as always, I was a ballistics first 100% kind of guy but now I'm not so sure.
I lean towards ballistics, because it benefits units and defenses that I rarely control directly. It is always on whether my attention is there or not. Thumb ring is only used in a real sense when micro is used, since your units just auto firing at a nearby enemy unit that is not being micro’d by my opponent would do near to base damage. An archer that starts to attack a spearman will do 100% damage because the spearman will run towards the archer in a straight line. Ballistics gives me more damage overall because all my towers and castles are doing more damage regardless of whether my opponent is microing, except in rare situations like one scout or something. Thumb ring is basically a requirement if you’re going for archers, especially Mongols, Berbers, or Huns, though.
As for Starcraft person, its wild to me to see a tech that disables part of enemy micro, LOL This is smart, in a way: this is prevent top tier player from trying to squeeze even single drop of value out of small unit groups against archers/defencive buildings by extensive dodging, and instead let them go do some macro and large army control. This is must be loosening pressure a bit for them as they know that they dont lose some value by not microing arrow dodge. This is still interesting and important usage of skill of microcontrol in earlier stages of the game before ballistics, and you still have to dodge siege weapon shots even in late game. So overall i like this mechanic
It's better research thumb ring if you need to fight a lot of light cavs or knights because of the damage output, plus the cavalry will have to storm towards you to attack your archers. If your enemy has a lot of archers, ballistics is definitely the upgrade to go first because of the micro mentioned in the video
If the long range units not hitting only applies to fast moving targets then it's probably a touch of realism as it's hard to predict the position of a fast moving target which is far away. Great videos btw keep it up. :D
Hey spirit, your videos gave me an idea, I used to play aoe2 a lot as a kid, on ps2 and pc, I thought I was good but after playing HD I realised that I suck against all but easiest ai. Sooo I have decided to push myself into the deep end and force myself to git gud. So I'm gonna watch all your videos again, take notes and record my misery for all to see. Because I love this game, and I don't want my only success to be a lie.
one thing not mentioned, is that if you are queuing a bunch of archers, you have to stop production in one building to get the upgrade. I dont know the exact numbers, and I know it varies based on civ, but lets say thumb ring takes 1 minute to research, and in that time, you could have made 6 archers. early game that could be devastating to your front/defense if your opponent can take the opportunity. I guess what im trying to say is that youve also got to way the difference between 6 archers and the thumb ring in situations. just a thought.
it doesnt matter that much having a lot of archers if they cant hit a thing, its better to have a bunch of them with 100% accuracy which will almost always have confirmed kills, still in some cases ballistics/thumb ring is for playing with some more comfort where it isnt completely needed but still helps a lot
+Doom Squared i dont think it would work on this engine that great but its a good strategy as for like using it for supressing fire on chokepoints, specially as the brits with their range, your idea sounds cool
+Doom Squared Good point. An archer/crossbowman seems to take about 35 seconds and thumb ring seems to take 45 seconds in Feudal age for non-Britons and Aztecs, so it's true that you're giving up a potential archer for it.
+Spirit Of The Law haha, my numbers were way off there.... I guess it wouldnt have been much of a difference in the castle age stage of the game. totally worth it to forfeit a potential archer for the 100% precision
Technically if your opponent is moving their units by any amount then ballistics makes the most sense first, if in a one or other scenario. I'd love to see an updated version comparing Bodkin Arrow to the two techs in terms of damage output!
+Miryr I've only heard the terms used that way in statistics classes, so I'm not sure it's common lingo. Especially since the game uses "accuracy" where "precision" is more correct, I thought it would just be confusing. I believe that's why the statement "missing with 100% accuracy" sounds like a paradox - it should really be "missing with 100% precision"
Fair enough, to my knowledge the distinction is made in the sciences, and since your show uses a lot of the scientific method I assumed you'd make the distinction hehe
+Miryr the thumb ring in my idea is that remove the arrow spread to the target. longbowman has less precision even to a standing target with that upgrade it will be more likely to hit more the same target, ballistics is for moving target.
I prefer Ballistics first, since I know that will affect my buildings. I only get Thumb Ring if I know I'm going to go for archer units. But thanks for this great breakdown. Well done as always.
I go Ballistics, it helps both my units and my defensive buildings out. Also, since I am on defensive buildings (I like turtling in AoE and Aoe2, not in AoE3), I am going to want Murder Holes as well so I build a university quickly once I hit Castle Age.
Ballistics is a worthwhile investment even if a civilization has no archer units. It helps with defence so much, particularly with castles and town centres.
I cant remember if I left a comment saying this before so sorry if I'm repeating myself but I'd totally be up to seeing a Campaign play-through (That isn't the tutorial one lol). If you think it's been done too many times you could always throw in some weird catch like; "This time I can only build ____ units", "This time I'll only play with my feet", "This time I must beat the AI as fast at possible" or have people vote in the comments for the next episode what to do next. I just remember in your last Q&A how you said you wanted some type of AOE series that ran together but Road to 1800 took too much time finding he right game and getting warmed up so I thought this could be another option.
Hmm with Thumb Ring but no ballistics, if the enemy got perfect micro against you, couldn't you theoretically actually lower your dmg (to 0) due to the 100% accuracy at shooting where that unit were, where without it some stray arrows might actually miss that spot and thus hit the target unit?
But do arrows fired by archers and cavalry archers hurt a unit that hasn't been targeted? I know that this is the case with castles, but does it apply to archers as well?
Thanks to you and Resonance I got back into AoE recently. But I suck. One common problem is that i cant figure out a good villager ratio on food and wood early on. Yeah i've heard the 6 on food and so on... but in Dark and Feudal i seem to always run into some problems. I get this is a topic depending on strategies and so on. But maybe this might a something to cover in a future video? *wink wink*
5:03. If I do understand you well. Green means hitting always. Red means hitting never and yelllow means hitting sometimes. However, If you have neither thumb ring nor ballistics I guess it's possible that an archer is shooting inaccurate behind the unit and therefore hits it by accident. Although this is a very small portion of the total amount of arrows being fired, I think it's interesting that the one upgrade is actually a downgrade in some occasions without the other. It may also influence the decision in terms of prioritizing.
4:30 It can mean that they do, assuming you have Ballistics beforehand. Probably because they didn't know any better, but I think they meant "archers have 100% precision" instead of "100% accuracy". 100% accuracy would mean essentially that they have Ballistics only. They aim at the target, but their shots deviate, and they, in the end, hit around the target (or sometimes the target itself). 100% precision would mean that aim somewhere roughly around the target (but not necessarily at the target!), BUT they'll hit that (possibly misaimed) spot every time. 100% accuracy and 100% precision would mean that not only they can aim well at exactly the target, but most of their shots WILL indeed hit said target. Your chart at 4:50 is almost literally a precision vs. accuracy chart, in fact!
Does thumb ring have any affect on ships? Your comment that it only affects archers, cavalry archers and skirmishers seems to indicate this, but ships weren't specifically mentioned as units it doesn't affect.By the way, I love all of your videos, and think this one was very helpful and thorough from nearly every angle. Just this one question it has left me with.
+Eric Bryant Thanks! I wouldn't expect thumb ring to do anything for ships, but as you point out, I haven't directly tested it. I expect ships are in the same situation as towers, where they're affected by ballistics only.
A few future video ideas: - What determines how many arrows are fired from a garrisoned castle (i.e. castle with 20 Janissaries fires more than castle with 20 archers which fires more than a castle with 20 teutonic knights and teutons civ bonus) - I know its random and hard: which units can usually/on avarage/cost efficiently reach a monk before being converted, which units can kill a monk before being converted? (Recently had great success countering frank onager spam with japanese monks) How much faster do multiple monks convert? (Diminishing returns like with build time? Is the timer for how much conversion is still required on the monk or the unit being converted?
+Kaotic Phoenix Generally speaking you want armor upgrades for melee units and attack upgrades for archer units. Now, for some units this is questionable (see: Mameluke, Gbeto, Throwing Axemen), but in general the defense upgrades making your melee units live longer is preferable (they actually end up doing more damage because they live longer, funnily enough) and giving your ranged units +1 range in addition to additional attack is preferable.
Sean - Yeah that's what I thought too but I see people say that getting attack upgrades for cavalry and infantry means that they'll be attacking quicker and what not. But thanks for your thoughts!
4:40 I don't think "accuracy" would be the correct definition, more like "precision" as accuracy is defined as "hitting the target" while "precision" is getting shots close to each other which isn't the same thing
I always imagine a Stone wall and thousands of arrows glancing off it. Then, suddenly one single Arrow hits the wall, Glances off... and the whole Castle is on fire.
I just don't understand how people are confused by the concept of tracking vs. accuracy. It never confused me when I was ten, and the tooltip isn't as unclear as the outdated ones.
I'm saving up for both AoE packs for after the exams this summer :') I played then on disc and all that I wanted from the game was multiplayer (which my parents thought that would be a bad idea when i was 6, naturally lol...).
+Admok Mokhtari Sorry to tell you this, but you missed a very big steam sale :( I got Age of Empires II and III, age of Mythology and Rise of Nations, everything with all the expansions for about 27 euros (~35 dollars). I really recommend waiting for another steam sale, so you don't have to save up that much :)
As it happens, the Arbalests are actually *less* accurate in game than according to the files (by a bare 2%, but hey). :D Probably a bit of a curve as it approaches extreme values, since the cav archers are well over 10% more accurate than they 'should' be. There might also be a range factor involved (since CA are always closer than arbalests). The other interaction with micro that's a bit non-intuitive is that inaccurate archers will be more likely to hit a moving target than accurate ones, which means that thumb ring can be an objectively poor choice in some situations.
MIssing with 100% accuracy is not really a paradox, but in this case, they are missing with 100% precision, accuracy (in the statistical sense) would be if they were aiming at the right spot, while precision is how close they are of hitting what they are aiming...if you hit the same spot all the time, you have 100% precision, but if that spot is off target, you are not being accurate, in the other hand if you hit random spots, but in the middle of them lies the target, you are being accurate, but with low precision
Nice video! I wonder when you'll make the one about bugs and why they happen and how are they seen in game, I remember once I saw a deer running all over the map.
+Spirit of the Law doesn't target size affect accuracy? pretty sure it does. so if you're firing at cavalry, elephants, siege units or even large groups of smaller units, accuracy is less of an issue. it actually might be beneficial to have the arrows spread a bit.
considering a CA rush: would you prioritize thumb ring or bodkin arrow? +58% damage sounds much better. but without ballistics it might be questionable. and you would also lack range
you say that ballistics costs extra resources because of the wood you need to make the university but I think that I'm more likely to be using my archery ranges to produce soldiers. I much prefer improving them in another building without having to stop unit production.
+Rodrigo Tolosa even in this case, though? Thumb takes about as long to research as training archer (45 sec vs 35 sec), and the university takes 1 min construction and 200 wood. I'd rather miss out on 1 archer than 200 wood and 1 min of villager time...
+Spirit Of The Law I get your point, but the 200 wood are going into a building that you are likely to build anyways, and that you may use to wall up. I also think the broader scope of ballistics makes it more versatile.
I wonder what the damage output with and without thumb ring on Ethiopians looks like, since they get the +15% fire rate for foot archers. Guess I'll have to wait for a civ overview
Damn I can't tell you how many times I've reloaded your video page hoping that a new video pops up, I can't WAIT for you to post a new vid' especially a civ overview! But I was wondering something, in your first video where you talked about the Japanese, you stated that the Samurai is a situational unit that shouldn't be massed. I myself go mass Samurai quite a bit depending on the civ I'm against, but it makes me curious, what unique units is the Samurai best against and when is going into mass Samurai cost effective?
+Spirit Of The Law does the size of the unit being targeted matter in AoE? A trade cart or a cav archer, for example, look larger than a foot archer. I guess the question is do units of different sizes actually have different size hit boxes? Or maybe it is accounted for with unit speed (unless you're and elephant or other large unit).
yay more information that i can fail to correctly apply
+ShogunScarey hahaha, so true
And what is an Amazon archer?
"Lets make it blue for people with red, green color blindness"
Instant thumbs up, thanks Spirit. You're the best!
I laughed so hard at this, can't believe it would help me.
What a Canadian, but probably just friendly considerate, thing to do
But did he make the red color blue, or the green color blue!?
@@MenTaLLyMenTaL 5:03 there are three colors. Green, yellow, and red. Green then became blue. But I think you would still confuse red and yellow? Stationary has YY on the top and GG/BB on the bottom. Moving has RY on the top, and RG/RB on the bottom. Hope that helps anyone in the future.
The ammount of effort showed into making these videos made me a fan in no time
My favorite notification to receive on my phone, is one from RUclips alerting me of a new Spirit of The Law video :D
+SCChirp Agreed
I don't even really play aoe2 online but I still watch these for replaying the campaigns!
+SCChirp But does it play an appropriate sound when you do?
+SCChirp I received one as well
poilboiler It does play a sound. I always think its something else, and them I'm pleasantly surprised.
Missing with 100% accuracy, so it would be better if they missed with worse acc at least a stray arrow might hit then.
Precision not accuracy
> Get Thumb Ring when preparing for archer wars, as they're mostly stationary targets or, if microed, would make you miss even with Ballistics
> Get Ballistics when preparing to fight infantry and most of all cavalry.
+landochabod7
Thanks.
+landochabod7
It's still situational, if you had to get only one, vs infantry or cavalry the optimal would be to get thumb ring and stack your ranged units in a corner or choke, only a small amount of melee units can attack that way and all of your units are getting free dps vs units standing there, so thumb ring in that case would be much better.
Also archers are more likely to be micro'd by humans, moving between shots etc so thumb ring will make you miss a lot more in that case and ballistics would likely be better.
So honestly I'd say it should be the other way around if you ask me.
+Pete (Pete26196) I think at close range it's harder to miss anyway, so if that's the plan I'd rather have a few more archers than either tech. Unless it's cavalry archer, in which case Bloodlines all the way.
I would say Thumb Ring is more about cavalry archers too, as they have short range and poor default accuracy but can use their mobility to put themselves in good firing positions. One example is right behind a woodline, cutting villagers' retreat to the town center so that they'll have to move parallel to their arrows and get hit even without Ballistics.
This I think is more about buildings, ships and long-range units such as longbowmen and to some extent archers and skirmishers, who are more stationary and sometimes can only find perpendicularly-moving targets, the ones you *have* to lead.
So yeah, they're situational, but I think there is a general guideline.
However I usually find myself getting Ballistics first anyway, as gold is cheap in early Castle while food and wood are very much needed to boom.
+landochabod7 bloodlines before thumb ring? Assuming we're talking a scenario were you didn't research it before hitting castle and don't use other cavalry, and purely look at the techs effect on cav archers, thumb ring is much better. Kind of like how you get fletching before padded archer armor(though the range is also a big factor there). Of course its more expensive too, as we'd expect when comparing a feudal tech to a castle tech.
Basically you're getting ~40% more survivability with bloodlines and a comparable increase in damage with thumb ring. Archer's are not supposed to take melee hits, especially not cav archers(considering their cost and applied bonus damage), so damage is preferred from a pure cav archer oriented viewpoint.
Of course you'd usually not go for cav archers without any other cavalry, specially not with a stable required for bloodlines, but in a hypothetical situation a civ with perfect cav archers save bloodlines has worse cav archers than a civ with perfect cav archers save thumb ring.
Also booming is not the only castle strat. For a hun(the main civ that would use cav archers before AK) cav archer+knight start, you would usually postpone your booming to hit your opponent hard, potentially closing the game then and there. Not to mention rushes(though they usually don't use cav archers).
+SmellyDelicious I think we agree Thumb Ring is crucial for cav archers. However, until you have Ballistics as well it might actually be better for them to spread their arrows and score at least some hits, rather than "missing with 100% accuracy" as SotL puts it. I mean when killing villagers, not against other military units.
About Bloodlines, my point was simply that it's so cheap I always get it immediately.
I'm not sold on the comparison with fletching vs paddled armor as cav archers take high bonus damage from trash, for which the armor doesn't really help but 20 more hit points do.
And yes, I know there are other strategies beside booming, but I believe mining gold is more efficient than farming and woodcutting (considering some of that wood goes on farms), and especially so in late Feudal / early Castle.
i had an eagle warrior run through an enemy base that was filled with chu ko nu and castles and i think towers
anyway he didnt have ballistics and my eagle ran away with only a little damage done after they shot like a million arrows at him
he basically left a track of arrows
it was fun
i think 4:21 is a classic demonstration of the difference between "precision" and "accuracy". Thumb ring makes them 100% precise, but if they're always going to hit behind the enemies then they're not accurate at all.
7:20 I had to replay that part again because the damn wolf caught all my attention.
5:03 Hey I appreciate that!
The moment when a historian reads, that crossbowmen where able to shoot faster with a thumbring... HOW THE F**K DID THEY DO THAT??!^^
wow you put so much work on your videos, respect man, you deserve every one of your 35k subscribers
Micro against player without ballistics: move sideways while arrows are in the air.
Micro against player with ballistics: change direction after arrows are fired.
If you assume your opponent has ballistics you could take more hits by walking back into the line of fire, so ballistics can backfire too.
Love this video especially the details on how exactly thumbring increases fire rate!
I think this would be a great vid to remaster like you have been for some other older videos lately. I’m sure some things have changed since DE and all the patches or even just adding the new units.
5:02 THANK YOU FOR REMEMBERING US! =D
The thing I love the most about these videos is the fact that these videos are prime examples about how much depth Age of Empires 2 really has. It's actually quite mind blowing to see that a game that first came out almost 2 decades ago has this much things you can learn and depth in general. There's not that many other games you can say the same about. A masterpiece of a game. Also big thanks for making these videos. :)
You should do a video covering the details about garrisoning units - what units are best, most cost efficient, what is the optimal number, damage bonuses, etc... I think that would be interesting.
I agree
ZeroEmpires made a vid about that
Back in my day, there was no thumb ring!
Also, I think the 2nd order effect of ballistics affecting buildings makes it more appealing
You answer questions I never thought about asking... lol Awesome work!
10:20 look at the minimap, it looks like a guy.
+TheGameriux :D
Looks like the Ness silhouette from super smash bros
Perfect analysis. I was already aware of the effects of all, but now that you have included numeric it became like a different point of view. Nice video.
I never pay attention to the maths in your videos, but just listening to your commentary of aoe is the thing that makes my day.
Keep it up Bro!
I’m not sure if this applies 100% the same in DE but I’d love to know. Still a valuable video 7 years later!
the notification from this video actually woke me up when I forgot to set an alarm, so thanks friend
Looks like Ballistics introduced a Kalman filter. An (by design?) improperly calibrated filter for long ranges. Great video.
I never thought much about Thumb Ring before but it makes sense now. I never really payed attention to what it actually did, but on the surface, the wording makes it sound like it is redundant with Ballistics. However, it is another example of the devs miss labeling things.
Ballistics affect accuracy
Thumb Ring affects precision
It would make a lot more sense if they changed the wording.
TheViper always gets ballistics first, probably because at his level everyone micros like gods and there's a good chance he'll make skirms
From Wikipedia: "Tzilacatzin was a Tlatelolca warrior. A member of the Otomi or Otontin warrior class, he became famous as a hero during the Siege of Tenochtitlan (...) The Spaniards focused their fire on Tzilacatzin but he cleverly evaded it" - those kind of things will happen to you if you don't research ballistics.
that wonky line at 6:45 just ruined my day.... thanks, spirit. way to go.
I love how one of the Magonels decided to fuse with another at the start.
The units that seem to benefit more from the increased fire rate seem to be the ones that had a slow fire rate to begin with. You are looking at changes in percentages, maybe there's an absolute increase in fire rate, that way percentagewise it'd benefit the slower ones? Do you still have the numbers to check that? I'm curious :)
Nah, it's hard coded that units get varying bonuses from Thumb Ring. the upgrade itself is like, +17%, but some units get -17% on top of it which cancels it out.
It's actually much more apt to describe it as precision rather than accuracy.
It it were 100% accurate, it would hit the target intended every time; if it were 100% precise, then it would hit the same point (even if it misses the target) every time.
I really liked the intro style from the 'Hole in the wall' vid, but this one is growing on me with the news clips and such. Anyway, amazing vid as always, I was a ballistics first 100% kind of guy but now I'm not so sure.
I lean towards ballistics, because it benefits units and defenses that I rarely control directly. It is always on whether my attention is there or not. Thumb ring is only used in a real sense when micro is used, since your units just auto firing at a nearby enemy unit that is not being micro’d by my opponent would do near to base damage. An archer that starts to attack a spearman will do 100% damage because the spearman will run towards the archer in a straight line. Ballistics gives me more damage overall because all my towers and castles are doing more damage regardless of whether my opponent is microing, except in rare situations like one scout or something.
Thumb ring is basically a requirement if you’re going for archers, especially Mongols, Berbers, or Huns, though.
A 10 minute video about 2 icons in a 20 year old RTS game... I love it.
As for Starcraft person, its wild to me to see a tech that disables part of enemy micro, LOL
This is smart, in a way: this is prevent top tier player from trying to squeeze even single drop of value out of small unit groups against archers/defencive buildings by extensive dodging, and instead let them go do some macro and large army control. This is must be loosening pressure a bit for them as they know that they dont lose some value by not microing arrow dodge. This is still interesting and important usage of skill of microcontrol in earlier stages of the game before ballistics, and you still have to dodge siege weapon shots even in late game. So overall i like this mechanic
It is an excellent example differentiating precision from accuracy.
i see you keep using gridlines
i am proud of ye son
It's better research thumb ring if you need to fight a lot of light cavs or knights because of the damage output, plus the cavalry will have to storm towards you to attack your archers. If your enemy has a lot of archers, ballistics is definitely the upgrade to go first because of the micro mentioned in the video
Awesome vid Spirit! Never knew how good thumb ring was until now
If the long range units not hitting only applies to fast moving targets then it's probably a touch of realism as it's hard to predict the position of a fast moving target which is far away.
Great videos btw keep it up. :D
Hey spirit, your videos gave me an idea, I used to play aoe2 a lot as a kid, on ps2 and pc, I thought I was good but after playing HD I realised that I suck against all but easiest ai. Sooo I have decided to push myself into the deep end and force myself to git gud. So I'm gonna watch all your videos again, take notes and record my misery for all to see. Because I love this game, and I don't want my only success to be a lie.
nice video! This guy helps me a lot
Gotta head to work but I react to the presence of this video with an approving nod. Will view soon.
one thing not mentioned, is that if you are queuing a bunch of archers, you have to stop production in one building to get the upgrade. I dont know the exact numbers, and I know it varies based on civ, but lets say thumb ring takes 1 minute to research, and in that time, you could have made 6 archers. early game that could be devastating to your front/defense if your opponent can take the opportunity. I guess what im trying to say is that youve also got to way the difference between 6 archers and the thumb ring in situations. just a thought.
it doesnt matter that much having a lot of archers if they cant hit a thing, its better to have a bunch of them with 100% accuracy which will almost always have confirmed kills, still in some cases ballistics/thumb ring is for playing with some more comfort where it isnt completely needed but still helps a lot
Could you imagine an "attack ground" feature for archers?
+Doom Squared i dont think it would work on this engine that great but its a good strategy as for like using it for supressing fire on chokepoints, specially as the brits with their range, your idea sounds cool
+Doom Squared Good point. An archer/crossbowman seems to take about 35 seconds and thumb ring seems to take 45 seconds in Feudal age for non-Britons and Aztecs, so it's true that you're giving up a potential archer for it.
+Spirit Of The Law haha, my numbers were way off there.... I guess it wouldnt have been much of a difference in the castle age stage of the game. totally worth it to forfeit a potential archer for the 100% precision
Great job facilitating common red green colour blindness. You are the 0.2% of creators who do 🙏
Love your videos man. Huge fan. Thanks for the red/green colorblind thing too hahaha
Great video, SOTL. Thanks.
You showed how Archers can be "accurate" but NOT "precise" ! :) :)
Technically if your opponent is moving their units by any amount then ballistics makes the most sense first, if in a one or other scenario. I'd love to see an updated version comparing Bodkin Arrow to the two techs in terms of damage output!
This video kept nagging at me: precise =/= accurate.
One affects precision, the other one accuracy. You should know better Spirit =P
+Miryr I've only heard the terms used that way in statistics classes, so I'm not sure it's common lingo. Especially since the game uses "accuracy" where "precision" is more correct, I thought it would just be confusing. I believe that's why the statement "missing with 100% accuracy" sounds like a paradox - it should really be "missing with 100% precision"
Fair enough, to my knowledge the distinction is made in the sciences, and since your show uses a lot of the scientific method I assumed you'd make the distinction hehe
+Miryr In my understanding as well. That is becuase science heavily relies on statistics
+Miryr the thumb ring in my idea is that remove the arrow spread to the target.
longbowman has less precision even to a standing target with that upgrade it will be more likely to hit more the same target,
ballistics is for moving target.
+Ironmaidenportugal That wasn't what was being argued about here. Im pretty sure everyone knew that. They were arguing terminology.
I prefer Ballistics first, since I know that will affect my buildings. I only get Thumb Ring if I know I'm going to go for archer units. But thanks for this great breakdown. Well done as always.
Thumb Ring is essential if you're going for manguadais, with TR and civ bonus the attack animation is instant.
I started playing again because of you, holy youtube :P
Thanks!
did ramsey had balistics?
He did... But The Starks did not Micro.
HAHAHA, Rickon definitely could've used some micro.
to soon!
He had twenty good men.
One day Spirit Of The Law will reply and I will be happy. Best quote this video: "It's missing with 100% accuracy" *about the upgraded archers* (4:44)
Thank you for remembering the color blind!
I go Ballistics, it helps both my units and my defensive buildings out. Also, since I am on defensive buildings (I like turtling in AoE and Aoe2, not in AoE3), I am going to want Murder Holes as well so I build a university quickly once I hit Castle Age.
Ballistics is a worthwhile investment even if a civilization has no archer units. It helps with defence so much, particularly with castles and town centres.
I cant remember if I left a comment saying this before so sorry if I'm repeating myself but I'd totally be up to seeing a Campaign play-through (That isn't the tutorial one lol). If you think it's been done too many times you could always throw in some weird catch like; "This time I can only build ____ units", "This time I'll only play with my feet", "This time I must beat the AI as fast at possible" or have people vote in the comments for the next episode what to do next.
I just remember in your last Q&A how you said you wanted some type of AOE series that ran together but Road to 1800 took too much time finding he right game and getting warmed up so I thought this could be another option.
Hmm with Thumb Ring but no ballistics, if the enemy got perfect micro against you, couldn't you theoretically actually lower your dmg (to 0) due to the 100% accuracy at shooting where that unit were, where without it some stray arrows might actually miss that spot and thus hit the target unit?
Yes, I just pointed that out too. See that I'm not the first one.
But do arrows fired by archers and cavalry archers hurt a unit that hasn't been targeted? I know that this is the case with castles, but does it apply to archers as well?
I don't even play this game, but I love to watch your videos. Subbed!
Hey Spirit, love your videos, however i was wondering if the Inca's slingers get any benefit from thumb ring or ballistics?
Thanks to you and Resonance I got back into AoE recently. But I suck. One common problem is that i cant figure out a good villager ratio on food and wood early on. Yeah i've heard the 6 on food and so on... but in Dark and Feudal i seem to always run into some problems. I get this is a topic depending on strategies and so on. But maybe this might a something to cover in a future video? *wink wink*
5:03. If I do understand you well. Green means hitting always. Red means hitting never and yelllow means hitting sometimes. However, If you have neither thumb ring nor ballistics I guess it's possible that an archer is shooting inaccurate behind the unit and therefore hits it by accident. Although this is a very small portion of the total amount of arrows being fired, I think it's interesting that the one upgrade is actually a downgrade in some occasions without the other. It may also influence the decision in terms of prioritizing.
4:30 It can mean that they do, assuming you have Ballistics beforehand. Probably because they didn't know any better, but I think they meant "archers have 100% precision" instead of "100% accuracy".
100% accuracy would mean essentially that they have Ballistics only. They aim at the target, but their shots deviate, and they, in the end, hit around the target (or sometimes the target itself).
100% precision would mean that aim somewhere roughly around the target (but not necessarily at the target!), BUT they'll hit that (possibly misaimed) spot every time.
100% accuracy and 100% precision would mean that not only they can aim well at exactly the target, but most of their shots WILL indeed hit said target.
Your chart at 4:50 is almost literally a precision vs. accuracy chart, in fact!
Does thumb ring have any affect on ships? Your comment that it only affects archers, cavalry archers and skirmishers seems to indicate this, but ships weren't specifically mentioned as units it doesn't affect.By the way, I love all of your videos, and think this one was very helpful and thorough from nearly every angle. Just this one question it has left me with.
+Eric Bryant Thanks! I wouldn't expect thumb ring to do anything for ships, but as you point out, I haven't directly tested it. I expect ships are in the same situation as towers, where they're affected by ballistics only.
Thumb ring is in the archery range so it effect only unit of archery. ships are not in the archery range like castle and tower.
+Eric Bryant Longboats!? Hello!
A few future video ideas:
- What determines how many arrows are fired from a garrisoned castle (i.e. castle with 20 Janissaries fires more than castle with 20 archers which fires more than a castle with 20 teutonic knights and teutons civ bonus)
- I know its random and hard: which units can usually/on avarage/cost efficiently reach a monk before being converted, which units can kill a monk before being converted? (Recently had great success countering frank onager spam with japanese monks) How much faster do multiple monks convert? (Diminishing returns like with build time? Is the timer for how much conversion is still required on the monk or the unit being converted?
Whenever I need to get some sleep, I fire up a recent SotL video and try to follow the stats. Asleep in minutes.
I love the videos though :)
Great video! Since you're doing which to get first. Could you perhaps do a video on what to get first, attack upgrades or armour upgrades for?
+Kaotic Phoenix Generally speaking you want armor upgrades for melee units and attack upgrades for archer units. Now, for some units this is questionable (see: Mameluke, Gbeto, Throwing Axemen), but in general the defense upgrades making your melee units live longer is preferable (they actually end up doing more damage because they live longer, funnily enough) and giving your ranged units +1 range in addition to additional attack is preferable.
Sean - Yeah that's what I thought too but I see people say that getting attack upgrades for cavalry and infantry means that they'll be attacking quicker and what not. But thanks for your thoughts!
5:05 thanks senpai... u aknoleged my short coming
omg i got so confused when i saw 100% accuracy, researched thumb ring and still see my archers miss!
precision would have been a lot better word!
9:21 Song Name?
4:40 I don't think "accuracy" would be the correct definition, more like "precision" as accuracy is defined as "hitting the target" while "precision" is getting shots close to each other which isn't the same thing
I, too, thought of the same thing, as my archers do miss their targets even with thumb ring researched.
But the question I want to know is... how does a guy banging a sword against a building set it on fire?
dont worry, i will extinguish the flames with my hammer
physics...
I always imagine a Stone wall and thousands of arrows glancing off it. Then, suddenly one single Arrow hits the wall, Glances off... and the whole Castle is on fire.
lol
Lol
back in Age of Kings, there was no Thumb Ring, so the decision of which to get first was easy!
that map at the end is a person dancing. you even get the nose and eyes
5:05 ...7 that graph was made in the good old days where hera and lierry weren't out microing ballistics
Yay! Someone who recognises us colourbind users!
I just don't understand how people are confused by the concept of tracking vs. accuracy. It never confused me when I was ten, and the tooltip isn't as unclear as the outdated ones.
Longbowman increases their damage output by 40% with thumb ring, but britons do not get access to thumb ring, kill me
All tech civ
Thumbs up!
i imagine him making a testing map, and later taking notes wearing a lab coat
Awasome video as always .Thumps up.
omg spirit of the law yay
I'm saving up for both AoE packs for after the exams this summer :') I played then on disc and all that I wanted from the game was multiplayer (which my parents thought that would be a bad idea when i was 6, naturally lol...).
+Admok Mokhtari Sorry to tell you this, but you missed a very big steam sale :( I got Age of Empires II and III, age of Mythology and Rise of Nations, everything with all the expansions for about 27 euros (~35 dollars). I really recommend waiting for another steam sale, so you don't have to save up that much :)
+DrakeSilmore Steam summer sale ;D
Admok Mokhtari That should do ;)
As it happens, the Arbalests are actually *less* accurate in game than according to the files (by a bare 2%, but hey). :D Probably a bit of a curve as it approaches extreme values, since the cav archers are well over 10% more accurate than they 'should' be. There might also be a range factor involved (since CA are always closer than arbalests).
The other interaction with micro that's a bit non-intuitive is that inaccurate archers will be more likely to hit a moving target than accurate ones, which means that thumb ring can be an objectively poor choice in some situations.
MIssing with 100% accuracy is not really a paradox, but in this case, they are missing with 100% precision, accuracy (in the statistical sense) would be if they were aiming at the right spot, while precision is how close they are of hitting what they are aiming...if you hit the same spot all the time, you have 100% precision, but if that spot is off target, you are not being accurate, in the other hand if you hit random spots, but in the middle of them lies the target, you are being accurate, but with low precision
Nice video! I wonder when you'll make the one about bugs and why they happen and how are they seen in game, I remember once I saw a deer running all over the map.
+Spirit of the Law doesn't target size affect accuracy? pretty sure it does. so if you're firing at cavalry, elephants, siege units or even large groups of smaller units, accuracy is less of an issue. it actually might be beneficial to have the arrows spread a bit.
thx for insightful video once again
considering a CA rush: would you prioritize thumb ring or bodkin arrow? +58% damage sounds much better.
but without ballistics it might be questionable. and you would also lack range
you say that ballistics costs extra resources because of the wood you need to make the university but I think that I'm more likely to be using my archery ranges to produce soldiers. I much prefer improving them in another building without having to stop unit production.
+Rodrigo Tolosa even in this case, though? Thumb takes about as long to research as training archer (45 sec vs 35 sec), and the university takes 1 min construction and 200 wood. I'd rather miss out on 1 archer than 200 wood and 1 min of villager time...
+Spirit Of The Law I get your point, but the 200 wood are going into a building that you are likely to build anyways, and that you may use to wall up. I also think the broader scope of ballistics makes it more versatile.
it's like precision and accuracy in statistics
I wonder what the damage output with and without thumb ring on Ethiopians looks like, since they get the +15% fire rate for foot archers. Guess I'll have to wait for a civ overview
For simpler comparison: Joffrey Baratheon has thumb ring, Tyrion Lannister has ballistics. They both have 100% accuracy, but only Tyrion has to reload
Damn I can't tell you how many times I've reloaded your video page hoping that a new video pops up, I can't WAIT for you to post a new vid' especially a civ overview! But I was wondering something, in your first video where you talked about the Japanese, you stated that the Samurai is a situational unit that shouldn't be massed. I myself go mass Samurai quite a bit depending on the civ I'm against, but it makes me curious, what unique units is the Samurai best against and when is going into mass Samurai cost effective?
that test scout needs a raise
I always put towers in the resources of the enemy so I always develop ballistics first
good music on the background)
+Spirit Of The Law does the size of the unit being targeted matter in AoE? A trade cart or a cav archer, for example, look larger than a foot archer. I guess the question is do units of different sizes actually have different size hit boxes? Or maybe it is accounted for with unit speed (unless you're and elephant or other large unit).