Is Kreia a TRUE Villain?
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- Опубликовано: 3 авг 2024
- Kreia is one of the most intriguing characters in the Star Wars Universe and I've always wondered, Is Kreia a true villain? Should she be considered an out and out villain? I don't think so and here's why...
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Phew, this consistent upload stuff is hard work - So... do you think Kreia is a villain? Or do you think she's something different? We're looking to obtain Discord Partnership for the channel, so if you haven't yet be sure to come and join my server now! - discord.gg/BdpmBtx -
Kreia is a misguided villain, not an evil one.
She is an Anti Hero
@@panos617 Maybe, but I say she's not an anti-villain.
Off topic question. The kotor 2 playthrough you got going, does this include the kotor 2 restoration mod? I've never experienced that myself and wonder how much it added to the narrative
@@aeternumcadens1777 Indeed! It's the restoration mod :)
I think that Kreia should be considered always a mentor, even in the last part in the game. She's not fighting the Exile, she's teaching him a deadly lesson, testing his final skills. And when he beats her, she can die at peace, knowing that his apprentice is ready.
Yes, I always thought of her as a true teacher - much greater than
jedi like Vrook Lamar could afford to be.
She definitely impacted my perspective of morality as a youngster.
It's mad how many people have had their morality impacted by this character!
So, did your morality also get impacted by the characters of games such as Deus Ex and Planescape: Torment?
As a kid I had no idea what she was saying at any time, and I only saw her as this wise old woman who seemed to hate everything I did
Even without understanding any words she ever said she still formed my morality
I still remember "Apathy is death". A bit dramatic, but it has a good message.
What i learn in Kotor 2 thank to Kreia :
Stop follow blindly "the good" thing to do... think about consequences even a good action can bring bad thing later.
Better do a a bad thing than do nothing and learn nothing.
Help people do important stuff but don't do it for them.
And find your own strength (turn away from from strength that is not your own... and that is the true lesson of strength).
Geez, my Light Side/Open Palm/Paragon video game personality is now really, really conflicted...
Over the last few days, I had a realization that has clouded my view on the true lesson of Strength.
Near the end of the game, Atton says something along the lines of: “All that talk of hatred, of standing on your own two feet - doesn’t get more Sith than that.”
The player only receives the true lesson of strength on a DS run.
The true lesson of strength, to me, now, seems to be to rely on yourself to be strong enough, and if you’re not strong enough on your own, use the dark side to get there.
@@michaelandreipalon359open palm...
I see you too are aware of the ancient magics 🧙🏾♂️
@@ZacksRockingLifestyle strength only matters for competition and battle. Without those the need for strength is minimal. With Kreia, there is definitely an over-importance of strength. It's not as important as it sounds.
@@theblasteffect4499 life is competition and apathy is death.
Words I use every day
“Apathy is death!”
She is every voice.. you've ever heard... inside your head.....
Ah I'm so glad someone is putting out Old Republic content, most of the mainstream SW RUclipsrs don't. Gotta get my content somewhere.
To be fair, that would be asking the bulk of Star Wars youtubers to break from their mad lib style of click bait videos, which is something that is not going to happen anytime soon.
Underrated comment
This is the channel that actually knows the lore of OR. Most other RUclipsrs that try to cover it just scream "Revan!!1!1, two sabers, click the video!"
Don't give me Ideas, battledroid. 😉
That's why 100% Star Wars is my favorite RUclipsr because he's one of the few who actually dives deep into the lore and probably the only one that gives real information about the Old Republic
"The teachings of Kreia. It's just a video game character!" The Bible is just a book.
Not just a book. If you want to view it as such you can but that doesn't make it just a book.
It is just a book though. If you don't want to view it as such, you can do that, but that doesn't make it anything more than a book.
@@roberteischen4170 @Robert Eischen Yeah, you're rigth. But even being a book, it still has value, if we remember one very basic notice that the books are valued by the teachings they contain, by the depth of them and, in the case of didatic books, they credibility. And i am not refering to the Bible only, but to any other book, realy, even if its contents are fictional or arguable, as most religious documents are considered. They will still uphold value. And the cultural and personal value can still be considered. The cultural value most importly, since it influences a lot of people, and that is the case of the Bible and other religious manuscrits. Considering this, the Bible is not really just a book. It has a certain importance and renown. But yeah, if you don't value the Bible, it can be just another book, even if is housing a extreme external importance and influence.
That was the point.
@@MrEffectfilms if they don't believe it is just a book is their point of view same for me
I think that deep down kreia knew that she couldn't be the exile and that it was the will of the force to remain the way it was.
The biggest mistake of Kreia, as is the biggest mistake of the Jedi, the Sith, & Star Wars fans in general, is assuming that the Force has a will. It is just as inaccurate as assuming an ocean has a will because of how waves crash and tides ebb & flow.
It is as Jolee said: "Sometimes swirling Force is just swirling Force."
@@DBArtsCreators interesting way to put it.
@@DBArtsCreators That doesn't seem exactly true. Time and again the franchise has been built around the Will of the Force, and how its will is centered on balance and the interconnectedness of life. Even if you reject the concept of the Force being manipulative, most would tell you that The Force in the very least influences events to shape the galaxy into a state of balance.
@@animore8626
All of that is based on the views of the Jedi & Sith, however. There is no actual evidence in Star Wars that the Force has any will nor intentional influence on anyone/anything (which is the relevant point here, as that is what the Jedi/Sith/fans keep claiming).
The stories in the series are built around what the people are doing & presuming, never because of something the Force itself ever did nor influenced.
People read into what the Force does; a case of people (in-universe at least; fans are just copying those in-universe) being too wise for their own good, reading reason and purpose into things when no such reasons/purposes are present.
Kreia isn't my "favorite" Sith but philosophically, she takes the cake. And I do agree that she does have real life lessons.
Let's be honest here; if we have teachers like Kreia in matters of her wisdom, this world would probably be better.
I agree
I don't think the world would be better, in the sense of a more peaceful place.
If everyone has knowledge, everyone is just more powerful and dangerous.
If everyone acts like Kreia, manipulating each other, the world would just be crazier.
@@thomastran1163 I think the worlds already like that lol
@@thomastran1163 I had a couple teachers like Kreia. They were instrumental to me. I learned from an early age, that "grown ups" don't know everything. That you can think for yourself. That you can take information, find the fact, and come to your own conclusions about it. There would be a similar amount of manipulative people in the world, but there would be a larger amount that are aware of what they are trying to accomplish.
Partly, but there are also downsides to Kreia's ideals that must be taken into account too.
Not every character is definitively “good” or “evil,” and there are those that fall between those extremes. Kreia though seems to fit in a category of her own.
Edit: also no need to apologize for the unscripted video. Sometimes just rambling can give someone the most honest perspective you have.
Thank you :)
That's the thing though, is that in Star Wars most characters *are* either good or evil. They either embrace the Living Force or deny it and turn to the Dark Side. The Force is structured in such a way that it manipulates the galaxy into falling between those true extremes of mindless, apathetic tranquility and dominating evil tyranny. The Force structures the galaxy into a never-ending war between two polar opposites, and the ability to make your own decisions and express yourself as a human being with complex emotions is crippled. It's one of the reasons that Kreia hates the force.
Modern Traditional: no
Shakespeare: Yes
I am so glad you are getting more of your quality content out in a more frequent time period. And to reply, I have to say that no she is more of that scholarly person and has somewhat of a benign if flawed goal. She does have villainous tendencies, such as manipulation, but that could also be, because the other characters don’t fully understand her goal, but at the same time it is bad in some cases.
But couldn't it be argued that we all have villainous tendancies in our own small ways? So would that make us out and out villains or just flawed people?
@@100StarWars Very good point, I would have to say more flawed, because usually people don’t mean harm. Meaning ahem would be villainous.
Best character in the EU!
We have spoken.
Best character in SW period..
In Star Wars!
While I disagree personally, and would actually say Revan is the best, I definitely do understand why Kreia is popular. She's an extremely compelling character that really makes you scratch your head, whether you like her or not.
Anti-villian is a good term for her. She ultimately wanted to improve the galaxy.
I think she's one of the deepest heroes that ever existed. Her intentions are deep and fueled by an understanding of the darkside of the force. Deep within it she wants some light to come about because of it. She wants freedom from the bindings of the force to occur. She's like the darkest and wisest Anti-Hero and Anti Villain that existed.
You know why Kreia is so impactful to you or me. Because she cares about you. Sure other characters would give their lives for you like Luke or even Han, but Kreia? Kreia would kill for you she said so herself that she would kill the galaxy to preserve you.
I know she actually cares for the exile, but you are playing the exile and essentially in the game the exile is you no matter who you chose to be, However Kotor 1 on its own is about who you are and who you choose to be, whereas in Kotor 2 it's about who you were and coming to terms with what you did, even if you don't care about what you did you should be prepared to learn the lesson the hard way. If you do care the game gives every possible chance to test you without holding your hand without patting you on the back, your rewards are the ones you grant yourself. Whether you are good or evil Kreia will always say that she would have the galaxy die for you.
Both the exile (you) and Kreia are both connected not by a force bond, but by shared experience of abandonment and discrimination just for doing what you thought was right. Kreia wanted to make the galaxy more wise whether it being for the jedi or sith and the exile wanted to save as many lives as possible. For that the jedi were the ones to punsih one character and forget the other all the whole thry take no responsibility for the repercussions or the Mandolorian wars or the jedi civil wars. Always casting blame and sending out puppets to do their own work something no different from what Revan was doing, only Revan was at least the most honest.
Kreia is like a teacher one that you truly needed even if it seems she came too late, you realise that she came at your more dire moment. Not only is Kreia important to you, but you're important to her, she manipulates you yes, but she does love you more than she loved Revan or any of her students.
I will admit that when I first played Kotor2 I was too young to truly appreciate her lessons. But later on after replaying it truly was life changing
Amen.
Kreia is a fascinating, complex, unique, and masterfully written villain, but still definitely a villain. She is prepared to kill countless Force-sensitive beings and cause untold other consequences just to "free" the galaxy from the Force. She has given herself unlimited authority to change the galaxy and make things the way she wants them to be- thinking inwards, only about herself. Being able to express a philosophy more complex than simply screaming "UNLIMITED POWER!!!" is what makes her stand out against hordes of other Star Wars villains, but complexity does not by itself make a villain less villainous or a hero less heroic.
In this day and age we need kreia now more than ever
The ideal of not labelling and looking at things more closely than just good and evil I think is very important for today's day and age. Seems lost to most people.
@@100StarWars it is alot of lessons seemed to have been forgotten over the years
I love this interesting analysis! While I haven't heard the term "anti-villain" before, I think your analysis is spot on!
Thank you! You should look into some other Anti-Villains, they're very cool! One of my favorites is Lelouch Vi Britannia!
After all these years I'm still more enlightened from kreia than anyone else. Not a day goes by I don't say or think about one of our interactions. I'm always testing you. Be careful you just might learn something.
It so beautifully fitting that a woman whose philosophy focuses on transcending binary divisions and labels is, herself, a n excellent subversion of the binary hero/villain concept.
Your videos are so well done, keep up the hard work man!
This is the first video of yours that I've had the pleasure of viewing. I couldn't resist subscribing. A job well done! 😁👍
I forget, if you try to pick all the good options, such as being charitable and being a Jedi or Jedi in the case of being the version of Meetra Surik in the grey version, is she disgusted by this or proud of you for sticking to your guns in the end?
If memory serves, she is conflicted. She disagrees (sometimes to the point of disgust) with you, but commends you on being your own person (I believe).
It doesn't matter... If you go full sith she would also complaint about you being a savage or cruel.
She is something in the middle and you can only please her as if you constantly look at your own actions thinking on how she would deal with the situation...
Kreia doesn't pick fights unless is strictly necessary, for a sith this is annoying, for a jedi is commendable, but Kreia makes no distinction of who you would pick a fight, if it is in the way of her own goals, for jedi this is horrible, for sith is commendable...
As you can see, Kreia is a little bit of both jedi and sith, the self control of emotions from jedi with brutal logic of the sith...
Its no wonder how she wants to save the galaxy... At all costs!
Self contro of jedi, brutal logic of the sith, ruthless means, for a sacrificial goal.
@@efxnews4776 Agree.
The perfect role model!
Having recently played the game, I got the impression of her going from a foil to the main character to a straight up antagonist at the end. It's the perfect setup for a game where you're primed to expect to choose between light and dark since she works as a foil for both.
Keep up the amazing work! great video
I'm really happy you enjoyed it :)
This definitely creates discussion and a variety of opinions. I like reading the different beliefs people have of Kreia; including your own. I can see where you would consider her to be an anti villain too. I can’t wait to explore the game for myself so I can form my own opinion of her.
Well done Luke it’s an interesting topic; glad you made a video on it💜
Thank you, Maryam!
These are your best kinds of videos. You answered the supposed question but a video
on Revan in this format would be great.
My best kind? Damn.
@@100StarWars Anything exploring character ethos in your videos is great, so in this instance I found it fascinating. Another suggestion would possibly be Malgus and Vitiate. Of course these might not be as complex on the subject of heroism and villainy but exploring their world views and morality could make for more awesome videos.
I believe you brought up amazing points here. I personally don’t think she’s evil or good. Evil and good is subjective. I think anti-villain is the best way to describe her.
Yes, she’s manipulative, yet… she taught. Not just normal teachings, but teachings to go outside one’s self, look at different points of views. Consider that everything comes at a price or may not be as cut and dry.
Kreia is complex, so much so she impacts others, as you stated. Yes, it’s a video games, and yes, people have been impacted by video games. I certainly have. She says so many important lines in this game, like you stated, that can be applied to real life.
One line I love by her is: “Plans are fragile things and life often dashes expectations to the ground.”
While the sentence seems depressing and simple, maybe it also means that while those plans dash to the ground, there is a reason for it. Maybe we don’t know that reason at the time, yet there’s more to it than meets the eye.
Kreia did inherently no good, yet no evil. She is neither light nor dark. Though I’d go as far and call her a “Gray Sith”. Similar to the “Anti-Villain” name you gave her, but more of a in the Star Wars universe name.
She even states:
“'Sith' is a title, yes, but like you, the title is not who I am. It is not what I believe. For you… it is different.”
This alone tells us we must learn to adapt and understand not everything is black and white.
She teaches so well. I could go on and on and on about her teachings and talk about the definitions and details. That, my friends, is good character writing in my opinion.
She, in essence, is very philosophical, in terms of questioning the true nature of good and evil, the true nature of others and knowing what your actions may do now AND potentially in the future. She teaches to learn from the present and past, knowing full well that any action could cause a negative outcome. I see some similarities in the Socratic Method in that sense of questioning morals and what one believes in.
I believe you are correct and the reason so since you brought superheroes up The punisher is a good example as well they both have a lot in common in the way they work in my opinion
Indeed he's a good example!
The philosophy of Kreia is something complicated that can not be explained in a video talking about her actions and why. She truly is a one of the most complex characters ever written in any story period. By far one of my favorite if not my favorite character in all of Star Wars good job on the video but I think it is impossible to completely determine whether she was good or evil because those terms are not relevant I mean it’s not simply black and white there is a lot more gray in everything and I feel like that is her whole goal in the game is to teach the exile well teach the player that the world is a lot more grey and questionable then it is just black and white. Interesting video good job man but I feel like it’s just not possible at least in a short video like this to get down to the root of who she is and what her beliefs are.
I’d say no and yes personally I really am not sure lol but still very interesting nonetheless it’s crazy how we can still get new interpretations from playing this game so much really makes the game timeless
The fact we're here 15 years later only goes to prove it really is timeless.
Bro, 4 videos in the past 2 weeks... you good? Love it!
Death Sticks Bro
100% absolutely bang on she has more than I realised, you have made me take a deeper look at it SUBSCRIBED 👌
My friend again as always amazing, fascinating and astounding video!!!! I have to say as always sorry about this but I first found out about Kreia from watching Darthycey's videos on Meetra Surik before I found out about your channel. I agree that Kreia is a villain the way she manipulated the Exile but very fascinating. I felt like Kreia's intentions in the end was to get revenge against Nihilus and Sion for exiling her, also I didn't understand when she said I hate the force since she was so powerful with it. Do you think Palpatine was more powerful than Kreia? When I think about someone who has so much wisdom with the force even though again Kreia is very powerful and knowledgeable, I think of Master Yoda as the most wisest of all force users. I can't wait to see your next video my friend and may the force be with you always
i played kotor 2 when i was 13 turning 14, that game DEFINETLY affected me, especially Kreia's teachings
It affected a lot of us.
With the restored content mod, this has become my favorite Star Wars video game of all time! The main reason is the complexity of all the characters and how they change depending on how you play the game. Because of that, it's hard to categorize Kreia, but I would definitely call her an antagonist. When I played through the game the first time, although I would listen to her, I did not fully trust her.
Good video man...she always made me think about that stuff..
You, me and many others too!
I didn't know there were so many people 'touched' by Kreia. I was no different, and I finished the game more than 5 times trying to get everything I could from the dialogues. Tried the restoration patch at the time but there were bugs that got in the way of finishing the game. And finally a few weeks ago I tried it again, and well, it was the best thing I did this year. It was the conclusion of a multiyear journey for me.
I understood way better all the motivations of Atris and Kreia. Why all those things happened, how did the sith came to think the exile was the last of the jedi. And well, what the war they were waging was really about.
Also rekindled my love for the Handmaiden, haha. I know a lot of people likes Visas best, but I loved Brianna when I first played the game, and I still think there's truth in her notions of combat and self expression. Even though our society doesn't have many physical conflict, the conflict that it does have and the actions that are taken show a lot more than the words that are spoken.
Kotor 2 was the most important game I played in my life, more important than books, mostly because of Kreia and the way she tries to make you see yourself and the result of your actions. Things like how taking the challenges of other people and overcoming them yourself, makes them weaker and dependent on you. This alone made me change completely how I think about relationships, trying to help people in a way that they are still the ones to act and overcome their problems. And also doing the same for myself, not relying on others in a way that makes me dependent on them.
It exists a video explaining her phylosophies and its quite interesting. You know what would also be intersting? A colab between the man who made that video and this channel. So much kotor knowledge together may be amazing
Love your perspective. Well spoken.
Thanks dude!
I've always perceived Kreia as a villian esq character or at least on par with Palpatine. They use perspectives and points on the whole that make sense, but are so manipulative with underlying motivations. I can see how they were able to convert others to the dark side so easily. Poisonous whispers
But while Palpatine does it for power, and for self serving reasons. Kreia does it for a greater purpose that she believes will save people. I would say that's a stark difference.
@@100StarWars I don't disagree with you on that point. Kreia is certainly not a one dimensional villan like Sheev. However her machiavellion approach to how the galaxy should be treated or viewed I believe is villanous. For example I recall after your final showdown in the center of Malachor V she relays how she hates the fact that the force has a will and wants to end it, knowing full well it would mean the end of all life connected to it. Her motivations may be twisted enough to be perceived as heroic, wanting to free life in the galaxy from a dominant control such as the force but it's also how a character goes about it ya know? Now you can also argue I'm strictly referring to the "Darth Traya" persona, while "Kreia" is a much more curmudgeonly objective gray jedi. I would have liked to see Kreia return to give her opinions in what Revan did within the MMO after "dying" the first time
@@100StarWars she doesnt have a greater purpose. she hates the force because she doesnt like the idea of something controlling HER. yet, she spends all of her time and energy trying to control other people. on top of that, everything we know about the Star Wars universe is that the force itself is inherently good, not evil and not even neutral but good. people, like Kreia, use their abilities with the force to do bad things and to bring suffering on others. but people do that even without using the force.
she also gives terrible life lesions and is hypocritical much of the time. dont help people because being charitable will result in a guy getting killed because you help him. dont help people because you are robbing them of their strength. but then praises Revan for running off to do what? HELP the republic while demonizing the Jedi for not rushing to war with Revan to help the republic.
Kreia is not your typical antagonist in a game i will grant you that... but there is nothing really deep about her world view or morality. in fact, can you imagine living in a society where everyone thought as she does?
Renee Zellweger is the perfect actress to play Kreia. Watch her opening monologue in her new TV show on Netflix called What/if. Gave me chills!
I would love to see Ming-Na Wen play Kriea. She played "May" on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and voiced OG Mulan, but I'm sure needed no introduction. I fully believe Kriea to be the greatest written woman in fictional history.
she doesn’t seem like the type to pull her off, no offense
Great video
THIS VIDEO IS FIRE! 💯 THANKS A MILLION
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for watching, Dontay!
Damn she never took her hood off at the jedi enclave on my first playthrough recently that wouldve made her speech just that little bit more impactful
I had no idea this was unscripted. Beautifully worded and compellingly argued. Very well said
I absolutely love Kreia. I think she was a philosopher myself, one that shone a light on the flaws of the Jedi back during an age where things were more draconic. It is the same flaws you see throughout the Jedi, all the way up to the Clone Wars. Their inability to be hands off and allow others to have attachments, in fear of the *unhealthy* attachments, thus rendering people from the experiences of life and in turn the Living Force.
A common miscomprehension of what the jedi mean by 'attachments'. The jedi are not opposed to caring about someone else, its the possessive desire to fight against fate or death that they're against. think about this; when anakin talked to Yoda about seeing someone he cared about die, Yoda didnt tell him he shouldnt care about people, but that he should learn to let go. Its not the same thing. They want to be able to retain a clear and level head and not be confused or muddied by emotional attachments and biases. Their duty is to the force first and nothing else. By retaining that clarity of purpose they are meant to be more in tune with the force. By fighting against nature, as anakin does, they are less in tune, and their ability to think rationally and clearly is reduced.
This is meant to remove thoughts of revenge, of survival, or of selfishness from the jedi. They are supposed to serve justice, not their personal desires or friends. This doesnt mean they dont have friends or loved ones. On the contrary many jedi quite clearly have strong emotional bonds. But they are expected to accept the course that life takes. You may not agree necessarily but dont misrepresent what the jedi are all about or why they do it.
Also, they do not disallow others to have attachments. Not once that I have seen has a jedi ordered a non-jedi to not have attachments. Their teachings apply to them and only them.
@@lenkagamine4145 You are quite right, but this is also miscomprehension that is not inherently outside of the Star Wars Galaxy, either.
The Jedi, specifically most Jedi Councils, overenthusiastically misinterpret the Force's will, and they often take their code as literals rather than learn the lesson in the message. It is the same with attachments, in a great many cases the Jedi don't see the difference attachments and relationships, and *_unhealthy_* relationships and attachments. In the most heavy handed points in the Jedi's history (pre-Hundred Years Darkness, Jedi Civil War, Clone Wars) many Jedi in a position of authority (if not all, on the Council) have taken the lessons as absolute rules rather than the guidelines they are meant to be and therefore the _very specific_ warnings and lessons that they are meant to teach.
I would disagree heavily with the Republic or Justice being their purview and therefore what they are meant to serve, as the Jedi are *first and foremost* meant to *_serve_* the Force and protect life, not force their views on the political or moral dilemmas of the Galaxy. The Jedi have imposed themselves on the security of the Galaxy, save people but they either upset authorities without following the proper procedures or they made those people dependant upon them. Jedi are always fixing problems rather shepherding people towards their own natural and logical conclusions, taking control of situations over helping and guiding people like their supposed to.
Many of the flaws I have listed here are not only mentioned in Kreia's philosophy, but are actually somewhat amended by Luke's Jedi Order in Legends. In the former, Luke allows attachments in his Jedi and the freedom to live their lives as they see fit. In the latter, Luke has lessons that teach the errors of over dependency on the Jedi itself.
As to non-Jedi, you are correct but I don't recall saying that they do. I do know however that whenever Jedi have ruled the Galaxy they attempt to impose their own laws on it, and it was a big contributor to the collapse of the Old Republic and the Ruusan Reformations. Because indeed, Jedi rules and regulations are not something normal people or cultures can survive under for long, its is its own form of tyranny.
@@darkinnovator2479 Imposing rules is necessary for justice. To permit evil to exist is to turn your back on those that are suffering. The jedi lords back during the hundred-year darkness protected isolated populations who were abandoned by the Republic during the long years of fighting. The collapse of the old republic was due to attrition from fighting the Brotherhood of Darkness, which was really the most competent sith order to ever exist until darth bane strolled up and fucked it up.
The Jedi code doesnt say anything about not interfering in everyday concerns or anything like that, and they are introduced as keepers of peace and justice; They are serving that role correctly by intervening in conflicts to avoid conflict where possible. Does that always work out? Absolutely not, sometimes they do more harm than good, I wont deny that. But more often than not the intercession of jedi broker peace and lead to greater galactic prosperity, and the force assists them in this task.
I dont believe that serving the force and serving the people of the galaxy are in fact at all distinct, on the contrary I think they go hand in hand. By preventing conflict and showing compassion, seeing justice upheld and keeping the peace, they are in essence serving the Light side of the force.
@@lenkagamine4145 Eh, no... the Brotherhood of Darkness was the worst incarnation of the Sith in Five Thousand Years. The Sith were diminished, both in power and in knowledge. The Sith under Darth Ruin and the various Warlords leading up to the Brotherhood did more than the Brotherhood ever did. What happened to the Old Republic was a logistical issue caused by Jedi rule, even the Sith are outright honest about that fact.
Wrong again, and actually a big flaw of the Jedi, as I must repeat. The founding principles of the Jedi Code says nothing about peace and justice *_at all_* in totality. Those are things that the Jedi Order impose upon their code and the Force, over so long a period that it became unspoken moral law and it was the Order seemingly performing betrayal of those principles that sent Anakin into a moral spiral. Ideally, the Jedi Order doesn't need a council or an organised front, such a thing breeds like minded individuals that forms psychological issues such as excessive pride and a us-them mentalities which is something we see in Jedi attitude.
Not necessarily, this is the difference between the Light side of the Force and the Living Force. First and foremost, the Jedi are meant to live in the moment and therefore, live their lives. That is the Living Force, what the Jedi are meant to be following. The Light side of the Force can be compared to a false Light, and indeed it was the Jedi who created the distinctions, distinctions that didn't need to be made. The Force has always and always will be, the Force. In this similar manner, even if it is just ideological, the Jedi impose their own will upon the Force.
I think that all star wars films, series, games do have hidden wisdoms and excellent lessons that can be used in life if you are willing to look deep enough to see them it's absolutely fantastic in my opinion the main reason I love star wars so much.
I myself have taken the teachings of kreia and applied them to my own life and surprisingly those I've told never once tried to make fun of Me.
I love this !
I'm glad, thank you!
Interestingly, the way you described Kreia is EXACTLY what Albus Dumbledore is revealed to be. From the begining, he was guiding Harry yes, but he was doing so to meet his end goal, the death of Tom Riddle, "For the Greater Good.". From the begining, he suspected Hary was a Horcrux, one Voldemort didn't intend to make, when he saw the diary and heard what transpired in the Chamber of Secrets, he knew it. He was guiding Harry towards the right path, protecting, helping him become strong, giving him the tools he needed, but with full knowledge, the boy must die, and it must be by Voldemort's own hand. But as he reveals, he came to love Harry too much, he couldn't bear dropping all of that knowledge on him, so in the end, he worked like Kreia, and even in his plan, he knew Harry would likely survive. As by taking his blood, taking Lilly's protection, he tethered Harry to life.
In the past we see this as well. With Grindlewald. In the Deathly Hallows, the subtext is abundantly clear, Dumbledore loved Grindlewald, and that was why he tried so long to not confront him. Instead we see him try to manipulate Newt Scammander and others into doing it for him, all "For the Greater Good."
When I was a child she was a villain one who I considered kinda silly since she wasn’t exactly hiding it, now she is my favorite litmus test for fellow fans on how much they think about the inter workings of the series and to help me gage how much of a nerd I can be no gate keeping for me I bought her game for a friend being like you gotta play this game man
It's because of characters like Kreia that I would love to see a new Star Wars film series set in the Old Republic era, there is so much rich fodder here. First film/trilogy could be around the Mandalorian Wars, the second film/trilogy is Revan's story, the third film/trilogy is Meera's, the the fourth film/trilogy is what would've been KOTOR 3.
"What does not kill me makes me stronger."
- Friedrich Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols (1888)
Yeah. She heavily influenced me growing up. It set up what would become my perspective on things and appreciation for grey areas rather than black and white
I agree... I even think if you finish it in the dark side she tells you she didn't want you to do that.
I really enjoy these videos. In a way Kreia is a dark Ayn Rand with an ends justifies the means mentality (which Rand would totally oppose).
I'm glad you enjoy them!
i love these vids bc i never played any of the old star wars games
I highly recommend them!
Hi there, been playing kotor both games since they came out. Interesting view on Kreia. I think Kreia is more a personification of the morality and the complexity of determin what impact any and all of your actions will have. She brings up the questions we rather not want to answer. And to me she highlights the need most people have to label others in order to figure out whether they are good or bad. Truth is that nothing is all good nor all bad. The real question is : Who am I doing this for, Myself or the other(s). And as all knows any action has an reaction so how can we ever be sure that a good deed does not have a bad impact somewhere? Reminds me of the question here: You are standing on the trainstation, waiting on the train to arrive. Further down the platform some workers are working on the rails not visible to the driver of the train. You have no means of stopping the train other than throwing yourself on the tracks or push someone on the tracks. Either way one dies and many survive. Do nothing and a lot dies. No good here only lesser evil.
Kreaia was once a jedi and one of the best jedi ever
For making these videos I love you man, no homo
lol 😝
I gotchu bro 👊
Kreia is both a Jedi and a Sith, and perhaps she is neither. It took me a few years, but slowly the depth of Kreia's philosophy sank in. It's weird to think of a fictional character in a Star Wars game as a great philosopher, but here we are. Kreia, like Kotor 2 in general, challenges the player's preconceived notions and turns everything on its head. Charity is harmful, a Jedi is weak because force reliance. Almost every Light Side choice that anyone would obviously believe to be right, Kreia challenges you at every step.
I love and respect Kreia and Chris Avellone for the experience Kotor 2 offers. She paints Revan as a master general and master of strategy, one who is so bold and cunning that they bend the universe to their will. She teaches the exile how to hear others through the force, improve our weaknesses, not rely on others, our actions affect others, be careful of who we associate with, and of course the previously mentioned beggar's conundrum. Real world lectures that clearly not everyone is fortunate enough to hear, or wise enough to learn.
We can't ignore Kreia's misdeeds. Apparently, Kreia was at the council and made the decision to exile the exile in the first place. She used and manipulated so many, including the exile and many party members. She used the exile to track down and gather the remaining Jedi Masters. Her master plan would have destroyed the force and all life unable to disconnect. Would such a destructive act prevent more evil in the long run?
Kotor 2 cut me off from the force. The story was so deep, eye-opening, dark, and thought provoking that the new content feels like "Duh, Space Man beat bad guy, robot stuff, duuuuh." I didn't know it at the time, but I had slowly become a student of Kreia. Her lessons still echo in my head, much like other players, and like Darth Sion. Kreia used me, and turned me into a more pessimistic, cautious individual.
Is Kreia a True Villain? Yes and so much more. Chris has said he wanted to create a sympathetic Sith Lord and failed. He created something that is the antithesis of both the Light Side and the Dark Side. I think the one lesson anyone can take away from Kreia is to question our decisions, because force echoes do exist as consequences. Revan is power. The exile is bonds. Kreia is knowledge. Apathy is death. Life is suffering.
The only problem I have with so-called gray areas is that when you increase clarity or definition a very quickly becomes black and white so when people want to tell me that things aren't as cut and dry and all these things like that I scoff and say that's because you're not looking close enough
People are really obsessive with their insistence on making everything murky when, in reality, most things are pretty straightforward. Personally, I find kreia's philosophizing to be meaningless muddying of the waters so to speak; she instills doubt in your actions. Justice is justice, right is right. Anyone too blind to see that can be safely ignored.
Kreia is an interesting character. She did what she did for the greater good. She did it to get rid of Sion and Nihilus, and to try to help Revan. While the road to hell is paved by those claiming to act for "the greater good", once in a very great while such things are actually necessary. This is particularly true of Star Wars, where even greater evils are often lurking in the shadows, unseen by the galaxy at large.
Actually, Kreia is the protagonist. She got the best voice acting, she has the most of the screen time, she is in the center of the plot. Even if you don't take her with your group, she'll be there.
She is the one to set all of the events in motion, she is in the beginning of the story and in it's end. She is the core of the entire game. Take her away and there is no story, there is no Exile, there is nothing to do, there is no teachings, no salvation for the galaxy and neither it's death.
Kreia is really the one you set on the course of actions. You may think that it's the Exile you play but literally you play Kreia, since the Exile is blank. You can change how Kreia acts and what she says, and what things she'll do for both "light" and "dark" side choices and endings. At this point of view I'd say that the Exile is a sort of complicated joystick or controller (or even mirror) you use to move Kreia from one flashpoint to another. Think about that: your "controller" is directly tied to the protagonist via "Force bond". And they are both exiles. So much meaning they really put in it.
And in the end I'll just leave these here:
- Kreia, what are you - are you a Jedi, a Sith?
- Does it matter? Of course it does. such titles allow you to break the galaxy into light and dark, categorize it.
- Who I am is not the question.
- You are that which has attacked the Jedi... you are Sith.
- "Sith" is a title, yes, but like you, the title is not who I am. It is not what I believe.
I wonder what Kreia would think of Ysalamiri.
I do love this topic. Kreia is probably one of the most interesting female characters ever. I can totally see her as an anti-villain. I think there's been some confusion over the years, especially with me, on exactly what an anti villain is. What's that type of hero that is an unlikely hero? What would the villain be that is an unlikely villain? To be anything other than the pure character type, they must be able to dip into the gray. While she has bad intentions, she is pretty much neutral throughout most of the story despite being a manipulator. As mentioned in the video, her intentions lead to positive outcomes through evil means. I wonder if there is different types of anti-villain. Is they're a villain who is evil but their actions result in positive results? Or is it a good person who resorts to evil in order to bring about good results?
Kreia is a complex character indeed but I never considered her to be evil in the basic sense. Like on Nar Shadaa, or in the discussions on the ship she makes you question what is real selfishness and truth. The jedi could be considered selfless when doing charitable acts, but she makes you realize there are consequences to every action. The Korriban catacombs portion were really fun for allowing you to see perspective on the lessons she tried to teach you.
The fact that all her students went to the dark side were meant to make her seem like a villain somewhat, but I think her end goal was to raise a new crop of grey jedi. Able to distinguish the light from the dark and not be stuck in battles of old. Unfortunately straddling the balance is never easy. All it takes is one major incident in a persons life to tip the scales a little too far and whoops you're influenced more by the dark side.
I am a huge fan of Kreia. Have been for a long time. Still play the og xbox version. And my newborn daughter was named in her honor. It is my opinion that she is, like Revan, not truly Sith or Jedi but something else. Not Gray either. She is everything and nothing. Unique in her motivation and action. And a great teacher. Call it good writing or voice acting, but the character is undoubtedly amazing. I think it's the duality in game is a nice way to make you feel for her as you move along until the end at her demise. And I think you nailed it when you say an anti villain. If anything other than anti hero. There's a fine line there. But above else, good or bad, she teaches apathy is death. Imo her greatest lesson, and it is not evil.
You named your daughter Kreia? That's awesome! She'll certainly stand out :)
Exile: Kreia? What are you?
Kreia: Doesn't it matter?
I’ve always found that Kreia’s motivations seem to be based on Chris Avelone’s misunderstanding of Star Wars and the force, he seemed to think that the light side and dark side were as bad as each other because they caused wars, but if you watch the original 6 movies the events that led to the rise of the galactic empire would have happened regardless of whether the force was there or not, Palpatine doesn’t use his force powers to take over the republic, he manipulates the political factions and is given control of the republic voluntarily, if Anakin wasn’t created by the force Palpatine still would have taken over and without Luke to destroy the Death Star the rebels would have been crushed.
Chris Avelone’s (and by extension Kreias) view seems to be that the force just causes endless wars but if you look at George Lucas’s movies, the wars are happening regardless(I mean the Death Star doesn’t use the force and that’s far more deadly than any force user in the movies) and all the force is doing is manipulating events to give the good guys an advantage.
I think Kreia and her philosophy are interesting but when put in the context of the greater Star Wars universe she just comes off as the stereotypical “enlightened Centrist” meme, critiquing both side but not offering any real solutions, I mean how is destroying the force going to change anything, most of the sith and republics forces are made up of ships and soldiers, the wars are still going to continue without the force but the good guys aren’t going to have an advantage, when you think about it destroying the force would actually help the sith.
Or the force plays an unseen hand in everything, even people who are not jedi/sith. Those wars that are happening regardless are what Chris Avelone is pointing at, saying that it only appears that way. It's definitely not the interpretation that George Lucas intended, but it isn't inconsistent to it.
Kreia offered the solutions of understanding all sides, and then owning up to the choice you make with that knowledge. To understand and accept the flaws whichever choice includes, so that you're choosing with certain self-mastery rather than through someone/something else's influence.
@@Heimdal001 That's the thing though, she obsesses over the force's influence yet she herself manipulates and influences the events of most of the game.
The force doesn't control everything it just manipulates key events, and even then, the Sith can bend the force to their will.
The moral lesson behind the Jedi & Sith is that struggling against the inevitable is pointless, for example Anakin Obsesses over the death of his wife but in trying to prolong her life cause's her death.
Keria isn't offering any real solutions; understanding & self-Mastery can be obtained even with the Forces influence, what Kreia was really doing was blaming the force for her own failings, the force had nothing to do with her exile from the Jedi order or Nhilus and Sion's betrayal, yet she acts as if it was all the force's doing
Chris Avelone seems to think that the force controls everything but George Lucas made a point of showing that it doesn't, in return of the Jedi Luke's attempt to stop the Emperor and save his father have no effect on the battle of Endor, the rebels are able to disable the Death Stars shields and destroy the death star all on their own without the use of the force, even if the Emperor had killed Luke and Vader he would have been destroyed along with the Death Star.
Chris Avelone seems to fundamentally misunderstand what George Lucas intended the force to be.
@@MannerdDesert7 The force can predict blaster bolts, see the future, throw inanimate objects... It has a clear capacity to be able to control everything (except rare things that are specifically, intentionally, immune to it). It can, and that's entirely Avelone's point he jumps on - what if it does, because it has a will?
The point wasn't to stick to Lucas' intent... because Lucas has extremely boring ideas behind the force - it's just midichlorians (and it was better when we were left to guess). Of course, that was probably good enough for the stories Lucas was telling, but Avelone was telling a 'what if' deconstruction from those stories. Avelone didn't misunderstand, he found the gaps and intentionally took it in a different direction. It was supposed to be a different twist, that's the intended lens.
KOTOR and the Star Wars movies are meant to be looked at through the intent that their authors depicted. It's just messing around to throw Avelone's depiction of the force onto the movies/etc, just as much as it is to throw Lucas' at KOTOR. KOTOR isn't canon at all, despite how highly praised it had been.
@@Heimdal001 It's a poor deconstruction as Avelone Misunderstands the force, while the force can do a lot of things it is not all powerful, the Sith literally gain their powers by bending the force to their will, and Palpatine would never have been able to gain power in the first place if the force was all powerful, instead it had to set in motion a plan that would take decades to come to fruition, that's the key misunderstanding Avelone makes, the force only act's as a guiding hand, but it's will can and has been subverted many times and as such his deconstruction doesn't make sense, he's deconstructing a straw man.
Also, it's not "messing around" to throw Lucas's depiction of the force onto Kotor because Lucas is the one that created the force, Avelone was hired to work within someone else's Narrative universe, if he didn't want to use Lucas's framework then he should have made his own original work, there are plenty of deconstructions that use their own original universes ("The Boys" and "Invincible" are clearly deconstructions of Comic book superheroes).
Lastly KOTOR might not be Canon now, but it was when it was released, so it was clearly created with the intent of being a part of Lucas's universe.
Kotor II, while I think it is a good game overall, has a problem with its plot, if it's meant to be serious then it breaks the lore and if It's meant to be a "Deconstruction" then it misunderstands what it's trying to deconstruct.
@@MannerdDesert7 At the time of Avelone's writing, Lucas didn't include any of the depth you're assuming. Lucas never defined the force as properly as you're arguing it was; Lucas' framework of it was "mystical force" and later "midichlorians"... he left it wide open to fan and writer interpretations. That was Lucas' actual intent when he created it.
Avelone was put to the task BECAUSE of what he could write with it. It was not a coincidence. KOTOR takes place thousands of years in the past specifically so the writers had even more freedom. Whether it's canon or not was probably intended to be an afterthought.
Keep in mind as well, that Kreia actually talks about everything you've brought up - it's all covered inside the story. It cannot be a 'misunderstanding' when Kreia quite literally tells the player that how you assume things to work isn't how things work here.
Misunderstanding comes from refusing to look at something inside it's own context. KOTOR deliberately establishes it's own context. It narrows on it's own force interpretation, back when there were many. Criticism requires viewing through the context it establishes, otherwise that's the misunderstanding. But you can just not like what KOTOR does, that's still fine.
I can't say I've heard of Sonic being an antihero, but you know I'm here for it
You mean Shadow?
@@100StarWars yea 😅 I didn't have subtitles on and am hard of hearing, so I heard s... the hedgehog and made an incorrect assumption, oops
I too am in the group who grew up learning from Kreia, she definitely made me a "thinker" so to say. Thinking about morality, about your actions towards others, your own limits.
I'm not sure I would put her as a villain, more like a necessary "evil", to teach you to see or think beyond just good or bad. To challenge yourself to make uncomfortable choices, perhaps some others would consider cruel.
Her dialogue is absolute gold though, and I love coming back to just sit back and listen to the interactions between her and characters in this game.
I do agree with Canderous about her though, "Forget the Jedi. Keep your eye on her.."
She certainly was the one that should've been watched!
I think her "The force is controlling people" view is what stuck with me the most, I still feel like this is the case so.
Both the Light side's "Let the force flow through you, become an extension of the force"
as well as the Dark side's "Control it" can point to this as the dark side's "corruption" might just be the force's emotions in reaction to being controlled instead.
To quote Spiderman
"Careful. She's a hero"
I completely agree and relate to this. Kreia is a villain, but she's a very different type of villain, not just for Star Wars but for fiction as a whole. Great video, man.
So you would say she in the general sense, a Villain? And thank you!
100% Star Wars Not really, she's a "villain" in the sense that she's the puppet master behind the antagonists of the story, but I always got the sense that to Kreia, there are no heroes or villains, just choices and consequences and that she was sick of living with the consequences of other people's choices like the Jedi, the Sith, and even the force itself.
I think Kreia sees herself as a villain. While she spits fire and venom at the Jedi, the Sith, and the Force, it's clear her war is with herself. There is a line to Atton where she says that "if Exile the is Jedi, she will forgive and if she is Sith, she will not care." She needed to hear she wasn't wrong. That she didn't effectively lead hundreds of Jedi to their deaths or falls. She couldn't forgive herself, and she cared far too much to be anything but the anti-villain as you said. However, through it all because of her own demons and the means at which she wanted to excise them, she saw herself as a villain.
Speaking of KOTOR II villains, the real villains of it weren't Sion, Kreia, or Nihilus but the Jedi Council. Every step of the game shows them in a harsh and negative light. Revan, Malak, Sion, Kreia, Nihilus, and the Exile were all victims of their arrogance and cruelty. In cut content, the 3 masters reveal that Attris was the force behind Nihilus slaughtering Kataar. Their dogmatic and arrogant views closed their minds to the damage their absence, actions, and inactions caused. It's what I love about the game so much.
I think Kreia’s philosophy is incredibly intriguing, especially considering the last Jedi. Let me explain; as we got to here Kreia isn’t inherently bad, but believes that the Jedi are corrupt and arrogant and must be punished, and same with the Sith to a degree. This is pretty close to the same philosophy that Luke has in the last Jedi. It’s such a good plot line, but why do people hate it so badly, when they also love Kreia?
Luke Skywalker was a ideallic Hero archetype. People don't want to see their heroes fall to cynicism, and realism when they are paragons of justice.
And also because the Last Jedi did a piss poor job at explaining its agenda cuz it subverted its own story left and right. Bravo!
Kreia is... A very unique commentary on humanity. Her lessons or remarks throughout kotor 2 make you question the extreme values of good and evil as morality with how it operates in the Star Wars Universe. The explicit definitive between the light and dark is a staple of Star Wars as a whole, but when you bring in real world concepts in and how they can relate back to real life is intriguing. Nar shadaa with that ever infamous cutscene of helping the beggar or not, it challenges Good Nature and shows how it can be more detrimental to someone as opposed to benefitting. And that is just one specific scene.
In my case I'm not especially into games but I read about her in books first and later the games , I read the reven book before I learned about the game story , so I heard she was a villain but when you look more closely it's not that simple
Love this video, Kreia is one of the most fascinating characters, and I'm 100% stealing 'anti-villain' as a common phrase and self descriptor!
Steal away ;)
One way to view this is through Jolee. He is basically Kreia light, as they share the same grey philosophies.
If Kreia's views are evil, then Jolee is too.
I don't believe Jolee is evil, therefore Kreia is not. She is more extreme than him is all.
Yet another way to view it is that Kreia was not using you, but rather the force was using her.
Much like forcing Anakin to join the sith in order to destroy them from within, I think the force may have manipulated Kreia's to become it's instrument.
The force had become not only imbalanced, the galaxy was left with wounds that were like giant oil spills of force power and influence.
Kreia was necessary to stop that rot of the force from coating the galaxy.
Even Kreia couldn't venture beyond the galaxy and confront the true sith threat.
Her only job was containment of a huge spill.
People who say it’s just a video game character don’t understand how impactful character is in storytelling is period. A good character and story should always be impactful or feel real, video game or not.
Late to the party, but here's my bit. Kreia is to me a version of the Destiny character called Dredgen Yor. The corrupted guardian did a lot of evil, but with the intent of creating a hero strong enough to beat him and to learn from his fall. Kriea did not fall as hard as Yor, but the outcome was the same: the benevolent antagonist, despite how many bodies they leave in their wake.
Same here!
Thanks
Hero or Villain? All I know for sure Is she is one of the most well written characters to come out of stars wars and is one of my personal favourites. She still has much to teach even after all these years…
I learned about Kreia from different youtube videos, especially the Philosophy of Kreia, a critical examination of Kreia or smth like that, I really liked her character because it was complex, I never really like heroes and villains for most of them are absolute but Kreia is something else entirely, when I got to play the game, her reputation preceded her, she was even more exciting to chat with and she always has that tone of a woman, who knows a billion things and you know that she is hiding something. I could write more on her but I think my comment will never end.
Kreia is the best thing that happened to star wars.
Something different ??? When I first seen the beginning and end of kreia character I always thought one thing that she is literally the living critique of the Force and star wars itself?
Unfortunately, some of my guildmates at SWTOR considered Kreia to be evil in the same vain as the ones you'd listed in the video.
I have always adored kraia and I totaly agree I use allot of the way she thinks in real life aswell her intelligence is unreal and I dont think she is 100% evil she had the right idea she just hated the fact that innocent people were dying just cuz the force decided that fact "that is obhorent to me" and she speaks the truth and people dont like that she is far to complex to be called a villain or a hero probably the most layered charecter in the entire of star wars but that's why she is so fucking cool and good and evil are a point of view
Kreia fell in love with Meetra because she was the living enbodyment that a Jedi (or any person) could live on even cutting ties completely with the Force. She wanted every person in the whole galaxy to live free of the whims of the Force. She wanted every living being to have free will. She knew she could have killed trillions of people doing this, but the survivors would be utterly free.
By definition, she's not a heroine, but just because of her methods. Her ends were, to me, perfectly right, which were to leave a galaxy free of the will of the Force.
Kriea is more like a foil, and a dark oriented Grey Jedi. She gives contrast to the protagonist. There is a point on Nar shadar where you can mind trick a couple goons into committing suicide, its petty and beneath kriea. However so to was the light side option. In hind sight you can tell very few options using the force please her. Also you need to be a pragmatist over a sadist. Killing the goons to her is wrong, but letting an assassin live who failed to kill you would also be wrong. Unless you had a use for him/her. So basically almost any decision you make will displease her. Making her the perfect foil
Kreia makes you answer rhetorical questions. If I learned anything from Kreia it’s how to zone in on people’s motivations. That and Voyager is one of the best Star Trek series
Arren kae is perfect. The best teacher in life.
For most of the game she's just the antagonist. When you get to the final confrontation, she's definitely a villain. She doesn't care who or how many people are hurt to get what she wants. Yes she is morally ambiguous, until the end. Her goals are still selfish, especially because she doesn't really understand the exact nature of the force.
She's villainous, she's manipulative and she ultimately doesn't actually care about the galaxy. But she is nuanced and that why she's popular