As an American I don’t understand pounds. All the climbing literature I’ve read is in newtons, the companies list the strength in newtons and it’s easier to understand as long you didn’t go to high school in the 50’s. I realize this doesn’t matter though. The videos are super entertaining and almost more so because I’ve never gone canyoning. It’s like a whole new world.
LS3 doesn't do newtons and I wanted to see the date more finely than kN. I don't think pounds is a great measuring unit but it's widely used enough that everyone should be able to bounce back and forth
@@tymoteuszkazubski2755 yes but it's like the argument for Fahrenheit vs Celsius, Celsius is better for science, but Fahrenheit is better for peoples experience 1.11 vs 1.33 doesn't look like a lot, but 250 vs 300 lbs is significant.
In America we grow up thinking we weigh so many pounds. On the moon we weigh less and other country's weigh themselves in kilograms (no big deal, they must weigh less grams on the moon too). But no their kilograms don't change on the moon (The rest of the world is obviously magic). Turns out kilograms are a measure of mass (doesn't change on the moon, or even in no gravity) and Newtons are a measure of force. On earth we exert 9.8N per gram down, on the moon we exert less force down. It's hard for us Americans to wrap our heads around the metric system.
Just doing my part to up engagement: I'm pretty ambivalent about units but I'm a HUGE fan of decimal points. I'm so mad that you didn't go with the KN measure.
@@that_kca In America we grow up thinking we weigh so many pounds. On the moon we weigh less and other country's weigh themselves in kilograms (no big deal, they must weigh less grams on the moon too). But no their kilograms don't change on the moon (The rest of the world are obviously magic). Turns out kilograms are a measure of mass (doesn't change on the moon, or even in no gravity) and Newtons are a measure of force. On earth we exert 9.8N per gram down, on the moon we exert less force down. It's hard for us Americans to wrap our heads around the metric system.
But why not use N instead of kN lol On the serious side the hand on the carabiner attacked to the top of the measuring device is probably adding a significant amount of noise to the measurements. Would you be able to avoid that next time?
Actually, carabiners in general throw the number off with the LS3. I know how to use the LS3 better now (slings or soft shackles are ideal) but this was still a great demonstration and most things stay consistent during the test to compare one method to the other
@@HowNOT2 there is something you don't understand. Your very reasonable and correct argument that units of measurement don't matter only the ratios. Falls on deaf ears, who hate freedom units with their whole heart. A burning passion to shit on this God dam moronic system.
Any chance you could re-do this test without pulling from above the meter to get some/any sense of the actual comparisons? Thanks for the great content!
I must respectfully add in , Wet rope option . stainless steel devices , larger diameter rappel lines ( ex; Bluewater assault line ) . Thanks for the pounds reference as many of Us readily understand it . Great video as always !
Phenomenal work. As you keep mentioning, you lack the experience to choose which setup you would use when. That gave me two ideas for videos. Idea 1: have Brent pick a route and give us a rundown of what he actually takes with him. Let him talk for a while about why he would choose each system or piece of gear to take. I would love to just hear his thought process in that evaluation step before the actual outing. Idea 2: once you’ve planned it, film yourselves going down a canyon and test Ryan the entire way. Make him look at the terrain and choose which system to employ with Brent there to grade his choices. It would be a cool follow up for the first video. Love the content, keep it coming.
We are doing several canyons for a week in squamish in August and will be doing something like this. Also pre-filming for canyon bolting content we will make this winter when we are stuck inside.
Hey, may have missed the video, but have you done a test on some of these techniques with wet ropes? I'm a pretty experienced canyoner and I've found systems like these to be variable under wet rope conditions. Usually only the first rap will be on dry rope, and then everything else is wet. Some systems gain friction on wet rope, and some lose friction. It's weird and interesting and you guys should investigate it. Obviously this is a can of worms and has all the usual dependencies of rope-type, rope diameter, rope condition, device condition etc., but I figure if you're doing the tests, then what better opportunity to investigate these edge cases? EDIT: My hypothesis (which is probably wrong) is that friction on wet ropes is lower on a straight path such as a rack or a whale-tail, but higher when it bends through devices such as eights.
IMO, and it would be hard to test, but the real check of rappel gear would be to standardize on a rope and a weight, then measure acceleration and terminal velocity over, say, 50 feet with the brake strand only under its own weight. Might be interesting to see which devices and rigging methods would actually keep a 185 pound climber safe if they completely lost control of the brake strand. Obviously the auto-braking ones would win out, but among passive or mostly passive devices, there could be some surprising results.
@@sebastianloessl7982 I would agree with you however, the linescale 2 only measures in 10s of newtents. So, how do you tell the difference between 0.04 and 0.05? That means you can really only trust the the first decimal point. So you're either saying .4 kilonewtents or 400 newtents. Either way, you're not giving much detail. I realize hundreds of newtents and tens of pounds are essentially the same but not exactly. For getting more visible and trustworthy numbers on the scale the lbs is a better choice in this application esp when you're looking at differences.
What is the name of the device you're holding at 0:45 or the ornge one next too it at 4:00 i used to use some similar to the orange one that supposedly was discontinued like 8 years ago as an OSHA violation for tower work but we used them for tower painting because we trusted it more when we locked them up with friction binds so if someone dropped a bucket of paint into our gear. That way if it failed hopefully it would just slide/fail until it reached fresh rope vs. seeing auto belayers sometimes fail all together or over time as paint accumulated inside them. I really really want to add one too my current kit. I recall them calling ours a double fisks, but all i can ever find are pictures of what we had, never anything for sale. Apparently OSHA banned them? But we ignored that ban because what we were doing was so specialized vs other tower climbers.
When testing friction devices can you take a temp of heat generated? My camera has an IR temp camera so shouldn't be to expensive to get one. Love your tubes. Answering questions with facts instead of just " that's what the book said" or my old time hate " that's how we've always done it ".
I would be interested in comparing such devices with thinner ropes. What is the thinnest ropes used in canyons? Do you have 4mm, 6mm, 8mm dyneema ropes to place through some of the higher friction devices like the Pivot?
Just to be that guy (and I know any kind of engagement helps you) but if kN (kiloNewton) too big is why not use N (Newton)? It was all about FREEDOM wasn't it? And yes, I really enjoy all your videos and only comment regarding reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally unimportant stuff.
1:14 Amen for Freedom Units. ‘Tis confirmed. I now officially love this channel. Please continue to sell my rope products in communist measurements though.
this is the 5th time I have watched this video ( or so), why is Ryan wearing a puffy and Brent a T shirt? things that make you go Hmmmm.... love the channel! just an observation
Looked like he was just trying to simultaneously balance himself and keep the device off the wall, not exactly pulling down enough to considerably change the load... atleast in my opinion 🤷♂️👍
@@ColinRichardson But if anything that's making the extremely high forces recorded even higher in reality... I still don't think he was really applying much "pulling force" to the rope, but either way I don't really see it impacting the results in a significant way 🤔 It was kind of either they held pretty great or not at all... regardless of possible hand force subtraction 🤷♂️👍
I really don't get the complaints about not using Newtons as the measurement... As if converting the weight of a tasty convenient snack food measured in ounces to pounds would simplify things, let alone change the results... 🤷♂️ Not to mention strawberry or original?! Not one of these commenters has even specified which flavor of Newton to use! Absolutely ridiculous! 😠
Would you prefer people donate directly through PayPal or patreon or would you rather people buy gear off the site? Because for example personally I wouldn't be able to do both but I'd be willing to buy a carabiner or donate a couple of bucks but I wouldn't be able to do both. Thank you
TEXTBOOK: www.hownot2.com/post/canyon-rope-systems & Check out our canyon designs on www.hownot2swag.com
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Love these courses, quickly becoming the SOP manual for a generation of rope sports enthusiasts and athletes.
As an American I don’t understand pounds. All the climbing literature I’ve read is in newtons, the companies list the strength in newtons and it’s easier to understand as long you didn’t go to high school in the 50’s. I realize this doesn’t matter though. The videos are super entertaining and almost more so because I’ve never gone canyoning. It’s like a whole new world.
LS3 doesn't do newtons and I wanted to see the date more finely than kN. I don't think pounds is a great measuring unit but it's widely used enough that everyone should be able to bounce back and forth
@@HowNOT2 Linescale 3 quantization is 2lbf or 0.01kN which are almost identical in magnitude.
@@tymoteuszkazubski2755 yes but it's like the argument for Fahrenheit vs Celsius, Celsius is better for science, but Fahrenheit is better for peoples experience 1.11 vs 1.33 doesn't look like a lot, but 250 vs 300 lbs is significant.
In America we grow up thinking we weigh so many pounds. On the moon we weigh less and other country's weigh themselves in kilograms (no big deal, they must weigh less grams on the moon too). But no their kilograms don't change on the moon (The rest of the world is obviously magic).
Turns out kilograms are a measure of mass (doesn't change on the moon, or even in no gravity) and Newtons are a measure of force. On earth we exert 9.8N per gram down, on the moon we exert less force down. It's hard for us Americans to wrap our heads around the metric system.
Just doing my part to up engagement:
I'm pretty ambivalent about units but I'm a HUGE fan of decimal points. I'm so mad that you didn't go with the KN measure.
I don't know my own weight in newton's. Just ignorant I guess.
@@elmeradams8781 he gives a pretty easy conversion like all the time. one kilonewtent is 250 lbs.
@@sobertillnoon lol kilonewtent
@@elmeradams8781 1 kilo == 10ish (9.81 to be less imprecise) newtons == 1/1000 kn
@@that_kca In America we grow up thinking we weigh so many pounds. On the moon we weigh less and other country's weigh themselves in kilograms (no big deal, they must weigh less grams on the moon too). But no their kilograms don't change on the moon (The rest of the world are obviously magic).
Turns out kilograms are a measure of mass (doesn't change on the moon, or even in no gravity) and Newtons are a measure of force. On earth we exert 9.8N per gram down, on the moon we exert less force down. It's hard for us Americans to wrap our heads around the metric system.
But why not use N instead of kN lol
On the serious side the hand on the carabiner attacked to the top of the measuring device is probably adding a significant amount of noise to the measurements. Would you be able to avoid that next time?
Actually, carabiners in general throw the number off with the LS3. I know how to use the LS3 better now (slings or soft shackles are ideal) but this was still a great demonstration and most things stay consistent during the test to compare one method to the other
@@HowNOT2 there is something you don't understand.
Your very reasonable and correct argument that units of measurement don't matter only the ratios.
Falls on deaf ears, who hate freedom units with their whole heart.
A burning passion to shit on this God dam moronic system.
Any chance you could re-do this test without pulling from above the meter to get some/any sense of the actual comparisons? Thanks for the great content!
I must respectfully add in , Wet rope option . stainless steel devices , larger diameter rappel lines ( ex; Bluewater assault line ) . Thanks for the pounds reference as many of Us readily understand it . Great video as always !
I didn't knew I needed this, this is past what I expected to learn from this series, I LOVE IT
Phenomenal work. As you keep mentioning, you lack the experience to choose which setup you would use when. That gave me two ideas for videos.
Idea 1: have Brent pick a route and give us a rundown of what he actually takes with him. Let him talk for a while about why he would choose each system or piece of gear to take. I would love to just hear his thought process in that evaluation step before the actual outing.
Idea 2: once you’ve planned it, film yourselves going down a canyon and test Ryan the entire way. Make him look at the terrain and choose which system to employ with Brent there to grade his choices. It would be a cool follow up for the first video.
Love the content, keep it coming.
We are doing several canyons for a week in squamish in August and will be doing something like this. Also pre-filming for canyon bolting content we will make this winter when we are stuck inside.
@@HowNOT2 hell yea! Super amped dude. Can’t wait.
He shouldn't be grabbing the top of the linescale, that can throw off the measurement a lot!
What's the silver device hanging on the wall at the end (16:09 onwards) with the similar design to the CRITR/Palikoa but two tracks?
Hey, may have missed the video, but have you done a test on some of these techniques with wet ropes? I'm a pretty experienced canyoner and I've found systems like these to be variable under wet rope conditions. Usually only the first rap will be on dry rope, and then everything else is wet. Some systems gain friction on wet rope, and some lose friction. It's weird and interesting and you guys should investigate it. Obviously this is a can of worms and has all the usual dependencies of rope-type, rope diameter, rope condition, device condition etc., but I figure if you're doing the tests, then what better opportunity to investigate these edge cases?
EDIT: My hypothesis (which is probably wrong) is that friction on wet ropes is lower on a straight path such as a rack or a whale-tail, but higher when it bends through devices such as eights.
Had to at least get a sticker and represent while I'm out in the wild! Love the channel and everything y'all put out!
IMO, and it would be hard to test, but the real check of rappel gear would be to standardize on a rope and a weight, then measure acceleration and terminal velocity over, say, 50 feet with the brake strand only under its own weight.
Might be interesting to see which devices and rigging methods would actually keep a 185 pound climber safe if they completely lost control of the brake strand. Obviously the auto-braking ones would win out, but among passive or mostly passive devices, there could be some surprising results.
"We dont wanna deal with 0.5, 0.6 kN" then just use Newtons, thats the entire point why the metric system is so much better...
Linescale 3 doesn't do just newtons. 50% of my audience understands pounds
@@HowNOT2 linescale does kilonewtons, so it automatically does Newtons
@@sebastianloessl7982 Exactly. The point of the metric system.
@@sebastianloessl7982 I would agree with you however, the linescale 2 only measures in 10s of newtents. So, how do you tell the difference between 0.04 and 0.05? That means you can really only trust the the first decimal point. So you're either saying .4 kilonewtents or 400 newtents. Either way, you're not giving much detail. I realize hundreds of newtents and tens of pounds are essentially the same but not exactly. For getting more visible and trustworthy numbers on the scale the lbs is a better choice in this application esp when you're looking at differences.
@@HowNOT2 the point of metrik system is, you could do the math in a glance.
You should do an ascender break test. Maybe test the $30 amazon ascenders
What is the name of the device you're holding at 0:45 or the ornge one next too it at 4:00 i used to use some similar to the orange one that supposedly was discontinued like 8 years ago as an OSHA violation for tower work but we used them for tower painting because we trusted it more when we locked them up with friction binds so if someone dropped a bucket of paint into our gear. That way if it failed hopefully it would just slide/fail until it reached fresh rope vs. seeing auto belayers sometimes fail all together or over time as paint accumulated inside them. I really really want to add one too my current kit. I recall them calling ours a double fisks, but all i can ever find are pictures of what we had, never anything for sale. Apparently OSHA banned them? But we ignored that ban because what we were doing was so specialized vs other tower climbers.
Orange device: Imlay Critter 2
Blue Device: PaliKoa Pivot
i use a totem and put a biner through the stitch plate and the large o spot and it does not move at all under tension and is easy to remove to lower
Love it!
Nice! Did you guys end up break testing a Crittr as well?
8s and palikoas is what we broke test in the lab
what's the diameter of the rope? i use the joker a lot and i,ve never experienced any slippage, i usually use the petzl club.
Can I enter to win a wall like that?
The biggest variable that's unaccounted for is the tension on the signal line
When testing friction devices can you take a temp of heat generated? My camera has an IR temp camera so shouldn't be to expensive to get one. Love your tubes. Answering questions with facts instead of just " that's what the book said" or my old time hate " that's how we've always done it ".
That would be a cool video. How safe are we when descending fast? Since different devices heat up differently and can melt the rope.
I would be interested in comparing such devices with thinner ropes.
What is the thinnest ropes used in canyons?
Do you have 4mm, 6mm, 8mm dyneema ropes to place through some of the higher friction devices like the Pivot?
I believe this was an 8mm rope. I'll check with Brent what type
Next time use bigMacs of force,
instead of pounds.
They are basically the same weight, and it is the real freedom units
I know it's not relevant to these courses, however does anyone know the best place online to purchase 3/4 inch amsteal.
Just to be that guy (and I know any kind of engagement helps you) but if kN (kiloNewton) too big is why not use N (Newton)? It was all about FREEDOM wasn't it? And yes, I really enjoy all your videos and only comment regarding reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally unimportant stuff.
It would give a false sense of accuracy. It would be like saying i weigh 201.00lbs when my scale is only accurate down to the lb.
1:14 Amen for Freedom Units. ‘Tis confirmed. I now officially love this channel. Please continue to sell my rope products in communist measurements though.
this is the 5th time I have watched this video ( or so), why is Ryan wearing a puffy and Brent a T shirt? things that make you go Hmmmm.... love the channel! just an observation
i just notices =-0
@01:17, damn. what a heart break.... how are we supposed to have a revolution if you keep switching back and forth?
🤦♂️🤦♂️ pulling the rope above the line scale 🤦♂️🤦♂️
Are you grabbing the rope ABOVE the device? 6:07 and other times..
Looked like he was just trying to simultaneously balance himself and keep the device off the wall, not exactly pulling down enough to considerably change the load... atleast in my opinion 🤷♂️👍
@@berryreading4809 there are other examples, that just happened to be the timestamp where I decided to make a comment about it.
@@ColinRichardson But if anything that's making the extremely high forces recorded even higher in reality... I still don't think he was really applying much "pulling force" to the rope, but either way I don't really see it impacting the results in a significant way 🤔 It was kind of either they held pretty great or not at all... regardless of possible hand force subtraction 🤷♂️👍
I really don't get the complaints about not using Newtons as the measurement... As if converting the weight of a tasty convenient snack food measured in ounces to pounds would simplify things, let alone change the results... 🤷♂️ Not to mention strawberry or original?! Not one of these commenters has even specified which flavor of Newton to use! Absolutely ridiculous! 😠
There is always the option to just use newtons, without the kilo prefix.
Just to be facetious: why are you using pounds?
Hum... If you don't want to use kiloNewtons, you know you can always use, you know... Newtons?
Would you prefer people donate directly through PayPal or patreon or would you rather people buy gear off the site? Because for example personally I wouldn't be able to do both but I'd be willing to buy a carabiner or donate a couple of bucks but I wouldn't be able to do both. Thank you
Donating a couple bucks directly via PayPal or Venmo means 100% of that goes back into the lab or the videos.