Thank you so much for solving Foggy Banren, and for all your kind words! It's probably obvious given the way fog-of-war puzzles work, but you pretty much exactly followed my intended solve path; the only difference was in how I placed the S-cells on the loop to begin with. (The question you never asked was: where in column 1 is the S-cell? And similar for row 9...) In particular, you placing the 7 in R4C8 at about 1:00:00 was my favorite deduction in the whole puzzle, and I'm so glad to see you worked it out exactly where I'd hoped. Well done!
Awesome Puzzle, it took me ages to find out, that every place where the 8 could go on the pink ring sees the S-cell in Box 5. Was that intended that there we're two approaches for the crux of the puzzle?
I have to ask, was the minimum 12 S cells(R3C7 or R1C5) being surrounded by 012 cells intentional to make pencil marking harder? Brilliant puzzle by the way, I loved it!
@@goldcakes Not really, I just ended up with a lot of 0/1/2s in those areas because of how the other digits worked out, and decided to use them for another long arrow. Thanks!
I don't know if Darth Paradox set this puzzle specifically for Simon, but it feels like they did. Simon often says "I'm not sure I'm supposed to see that" when referring to lines that pass over corners of cleared cells, so Darth Paradox made a puzzle to exploit exactly that. Edit: Solved in 58:11.
I didn't specifically remember Simon remarking on that corner-crossing aspect when I made this, but I can tell you that I definitely needed to make the lines extra thick to make that corner logic unambiguous...
@@chrisbattey The puzzle telegraphs that we're supposed to use those slightly visible lines crossing the corners, otherwise some of those visible cells would pointless, which removes the ambiguity over whether we're supposed to be allowed to use them.
@@davidenas Except in some fog puzzles some diagonals are offset to hide that they do cross. I think puzzles like this are bad unless it's specified that you should be able to see them.
@@runefevang5026 Sometimes I'm not sure if we're allowed to use those corners, but I think the way this puzzle was presented made it clear we're supposed to use them. It's one thing to have one thing like that, but having that many on the starting grid couldn't be a coincidence.
After struggling for a half-hour, I needed a hint ... specifically, I needed that cell r7c3 did not have a bit of purple in it. From there, I was (eventually) able to solve this one. It still took me nearly two hours in total. Crazy puzzle!
the deduction at 1:00:00 was just amazing. i did it almost in reverse. i asked where 8 was in the red squares. it's in 1 of 5 cells, which at first sounds useless, but every single one sees r4c6 and so it cant contain an 8.
That's actually the way I have it phrased in my solve notes - R6C4 has either a 7 or an 8, but all of the possible cells for the single 8 on the Renban loop see that cell...
This specific step is one of the single most impressive pieces of logic I've ever seen here, and that is a high bar. For it to take combining several kinds of deductions in almost every box at once and be mid-solve was astonishing.
If you keep the loop plotted out the way you did at first, it makes locating the s-cells almost automatic. (It was literally the only thing I was able to do on my own 😅)
I solved this puzzle on LMD for the last 7 days on and off. Nice to see it featured on the channel. I loved all the deductions and how the thick purple line defined the majority of the logic from break in to finish.
As a programmer, I expand the Hex number a little bit and used A-H to represent 10-17. That is really helpful but I still spent 162:35 to solve this puzzle before watching this video. With Simon's help, I found my solution had some flaws. I missed some possibility and it was very lucky that I didn't meet paradox. Anyway, what a crazy and brilliant puzzle!
Is the fog of war sudoku paradox that Simon would never normally use live answer check and yet when he fills in a digit in a fog puzzle that already has all the fog around it cleared worries because he doesn't have confirmation it's the correct fill? ;)
It is almost as strong of a paradox that Simon refuses to do sudoku in a sudoku puzzle. Using absolutely every clue or variant clues before even scanning for sudoku digits. And yet he still tip-toes through each puzzle remarkably.
Oh what a beautiful puzzle! My husband and I needed Simon to show us that the pink / purple renban was 18 cells long. All the other breakthroughs, my husband and I managed to get to on our own (even if it took the better part of 90 minutes). Identifying the S-cells in each box turned out to be far easier than it looked at first glance
Thanks so much, Simon. Breathtaking, as always. I’d like to offer a little trick that helps me just with keeping the pencil marks straight- if I need to mark something other than the regular way, I colour it yellow, like a post-it note. So where you had green s-cells, once I’d figured out one was, say, 15, I kept the regular 6789 in the box, but tagged it yellow as well, and put a 1 and a 5 in the corner, and that is my reminder not to confuse myself by thinking they are regular corner marks. Yellow just means go extra carefully. :)
1:07:16 finish. I flew through the beginning of the puzzle, labelling all of the schroedinger cells (I temp colored cells that I had ruled out, and removed that coloring once I placed all nine of the ones I needed), but then I stalled in the middle, taking almost 10 minutes to spot the trick about placing 7 on the pink line. Such a fun puzzle, and keeps you thinking right to the end. Excellent! NOTE: I had started using the pen tool, but noticed that it was basically a distraction as the fog began to clear, so I stopped using it and erased all of my lines. I think that is part of why Simon struggled for a while in the beginning/middle.
I was stuck for 50 minutes... until I Watched the video and Simon pointed out that the big renban loop does not go directly from r6c3 to r7c4 because there is no loop peeking out from the fog and showing in r7c3 unlike the other unfogged cells. I was all good from there!
Much easier way to break through the S square logic in the beginning is to consider that there needs to be an S square in every row and column, which you could instantly place in row 9 column 6 and row 4 column 1 as they are the only square the line goes through in their own row/column. Great solve!
Life has been very rocky The state of Arizona just pulled my disability status, so I am struggling a bit currently with bills, but you have me laughing and smiling, regularly - thank you.
@@hewholimpsmartin well, congratulations on being cured of your disability. The miracles of science that bureaucracy can accomplish are second to none. /S obviously
@@ptt95 brain trauma in 2001 - I will be "handicapped" for the rest of my life - good news is the state re-approved me for disability status. Being disabled is no fun but being disabled and not being able to collect disability is far worse. For 2 months my stepdad was paying my rent but now I can afford my own bills again. 😅
I finished in 106 minutes. That was one the more enjoyable opening to a puzzle I have done. I just drew the minimum connections and it was correct. That felt really good. Then, the challenge of the puzzle showed itself. I think my favorite was spotting the geometry of where the 8 could go on the pink renban, which confirmed what r6c4 had to be. Great Puzzle!
well DANG IT... I'm proud of myself for being on the right track to start this puzzle but I totally missed not being able to see it in the corner in box 7... dang it!
I got hung up a long time before I finally noticed that. Noticing the absence of something is a thing humans find intrinsically much more difficult, don't feel bad!
Anywhere from about 25:00 to 33:00: the easy way to move forward is to consider column 9, row 9, column 1, row 1. Each of those have only one cell that can be the S-cell. The rest of the S-cells then fall into place.
Very proud that i almost automatically found the pink loop and the first zero in about 5 minutes, while that took Simon the better part of half an hour. 😁 My solve aftwerward took way longer than Simons 😂
What a brilliant puzzle, and truly an excellent solve by Simon. Took me just over 12² minutes to solve, which is pretty good for me on this level of difficulty. :) Also at 1:08:25 : "...Maverick is about to fly over... (pregnant pause) ... Is that helpful at all or not?" - Well I think we've established that Maverick is not really that helpful, Simon, come on.
Really cool puzzle. 89:21. Stalled for a bit at the beginning trying to interpret "contain", which is not the usual term for Renban lines and specifically ambiguous when we're talking about loops --- eventually semi-convinced myself that enclosure was not going to lead to progress, then came to the video to verify by seeing what Simon assumed it meant, which is of course always correct (because you'd fix the posted rules if it weren't).
Puzzles like this make mine look pitiful, maybe I should stop setting... :( Just kidding, puzzles like these are an inspiration and stoke the coals of the setting part of my brain!
The "grey square" does not show up in dark mode.... Fun fact! The grey square is not needed for the solve, but it lead to Simon doing what took me 10+ minutes in about 4 seconds. Without the grey square you run into trouble with the digits fitting in box 7. You need the 8 and 9 from the S-cell and the 2 beneath it to all fit into columns 2&3 of box 7 and run into trouble if r5c0 is 3, giving you the makeup of the small loop. My solve path was quite different than Simons after this part (his adventure with 4 and 7), but I don't think the grey square is the cause for that.
→ I think the discussion at the beginning (where is the loop and the Schrödinger cells) is much easier when first drawing all possible options for the loop in, which gives many options for the Schrödinger cells, and then slowly removing these options by doing Sudoku on Schrödinger cells (which then also constrains the loop somewhat). → 58:05 "Is there any way zhat anything is restricted" - I also got stuck here for quite a while. Finally (after pencil-marking much of the grid) I found the same thing which Simon did - if you make the Schrödinger cell at c4r6 a 38, there is no place left for a plain 8 on the loop. (I only noticed this after a quite deep bifurcation (starting elsewhere) got into a contradiction.) → 1:11:00 "I got a 01 pair ... I don't know what that means." - I originally wrongly interpreted the meaning here to say that the arrow always has a 012 on it, making r1c5 a value of 13. But actually it means that the arrow has either 200 or 211, i.e. r1c5 has a value of 12 or 14. (And 14 is made impossible by that 69 pair in the column.) → 1:16:17 "So c2r3 is different toc6r2" ... and both see c6r3, making it a 2, which then unwinds more in box 3 and the yellow arrow. (noticed shortly afterwards.)
Right. All of us were yelling at him. It was really quite obvious but he still does a great job. He needed to realise that it was one s cell in each row, Column and not just box.
I found the break-in (i.e. where all the S-cells need to be) quite fast, and then got some progress. But at some point I got stuck. I had to pause it, and then restarted today after a few days of break. Total time 138:43, solve counter 2904. I'll watch Simon do it later.
I think it would be both better for viewers and for Simon (it often confuses him and makes it difficult to see stuff) if he got rid of colors once we’ve used them for something that he only needed it for like 5min. Leave the green for s cells and maybe even red for the other ones on the path, but blue for 4 was done after like a couple of minutes, why leave it there and make it confusing?
I may have missed the one cell I needed to know about at the start (classic error!) but after that the puzzle was absolutely stunning. All credit to Darth Paradox for creating this fog of war masterpiece. :)
Very late to this puzzle but I'd be remiss if I didn't praise it. So much fun doing on the heels of the recent bodysnatcher/doubler renban puzzle. I found the S cells faster than Simon, but that business with placing the natural 7 took me forever to spot. I marvel at how Simon avoids Just Staring for long periods like that. I think he must have a clearer mental inventory of all the possible weak points at any given stage of solving (unless they involve sudoku, of course).
"Non-repeating set" was crucial language missing from the rules about renban loops. I know a mathematical set implies non-repeating but conditioning leads me to expect clear rules and renban rules always state it as though it wasn't implicit/obvious.
Rules I'm reading say, "consecutive". If you're right, then I'm gonna talk to my lawyer getting my consecutive sentences to be concurrent....since it's the same thing. Right? 🙂 Mathematical sets, on the other hand....kinda no limit. They can be empty, have repeats, be infinite....or even contain mulitiple infinities which themselves may be the same....or not. Funky stuff! As for how much precision is necessary....it's really arbitrary. Define words, or assume a 'standard' meaning, or meaning in the context of Sudoku. And, ya, I'm getting a little extreme. Which is kinda the point. Gotta draw the line somewhere.
I noticed this as well, but it was easy enough for me to deduce that the initial break-in would be impossible if repeated digits were allowed. Moreover, I think that two identical digits are not consecutive. Hence the usual specification _"non-repeating"_ in the definition of renban is redundant in my opinion.
@@Paolo_De_Leva Right, identical digits are not consecutive, and neither are 1 and 18... not all digits are consecutive to all other digits in a non-repeating set of them. A digit is only consecutive to at most 2 digits in the set. (er, at least if it's strictly non-repeating).
@@Mephistahpheles I didnt recite all the words. Yes consecutive was clear. Non-repeating was missed. In fact in a mathematical set elements do not repeat. In sudoku they could. Right: it's arbitrary and up to the rulemaker to set the rule and spell it out.
This 1:05:15 would be a good time to tidy up the grid. There’s so much colouring going on that it’s easy to miss the green renban loop in the bottom right of the grid.
if you realize that you need to be efficient with your S-cells on the loop it's pretty easy. every R/C/B needs one S-cell: there's only one loop-cell in column 1, box 3, box 5, row 9.
I got lucky with my start. I originally thought the minimum length of the pink line was 17 cells, and they would be 1-17, totally forgetting zero was available. I then realised that would need eight S-Cells on the line, for values 10-17, but I was only visiting 7 boxes. "Oh wait, I can dip into box 5, make it 18 long, and that's okay because I can include a zero, that I'd previously forgotten about, on the line!". I completely overlooked that a zero on the line meant it could have been 17 long after all, with only 7 S-Cells, for values 10-16! At least I managed to fix my error during Simon's solve. I paused the video and saw that no pink line being visible in the corner of r7c3 ruled out a 17 cell pink line, before Simon mentioned it. I didn't see it during my original solve though. (I also didn't find the 7 in box 6 step. I'd had to do some pretty heavy bifurcation at that point, even though I knew I shouldn't.)
Similar for me. I ended up making progress, but only by bifurcating, and to an extreme depth too. I wasn't very satisfied with my approach. I paused the video right where Simon declared he'd seen the next step, and I was then able to find it, thanks to knowing what he was looking at (distributing the values 0-9 around the red cells). That made me feel better, but I'd have never found it on my own.
I believe the setup of the S-cells could have been done faster after realizing that you need 8 cells on the loop and box 7 containing the one not on the loop, as well as the idea of 3 rows/columns needed to connect everything, by then realizing that every row/column other than c2/r8 needs an S-cell on the loop and that can only be r4c1 for c1 and r9c6 for r9.
When trying to place the Schrodinger cell's at the start, I found it more intuitive to wonder where the Schrodinger cells were in the first and last rows and columns. They get forced onto the most extreme positions on the loop by this and that. Get to the same place though.
Oh wow, I didn't notice the fact that we don't see the pink renban peeking in R7C3. I knew the renban either goes through R6C4 or not (that's the only extra cell which would give it another box with an S-cell), but couldn't figure out which, and not for lack of trying. But I could tell that if it *doesn't* go through R6C4 then there's no way to continue the solve, so I just assumed it does. After finishing the solve, I looked at the video to find out what I was missing, and was not disappointed (except with myself, maybe).
78:04 with two looks at the video. For some reason, I was thinking I needed a pair of digits to make a 1 on the purple line? And I didn't think about putting a 0 on it. I was ALMOST there to start. Then I needed the help to place the 7s in the second half.
I love Simon. So great in sudoku puzzles. But applying those rules to the Schrödinger cells? Which is the S-cell in row 1, row 9, column 1 and column 9? Apply sudoku from the S-cells in box 5 and 3. All goes from there. Still he immediately spots the more important part, the break-in to the puzzle.
Would someone be able to explain the deduction at 12:00 that states the pink RENBAN line MUST be 18 cells long? If you go directly through and achieve the minimum geometric length of 17 cells, you will skip box 5 and box 7, meaning there is a maximum of 7 Schrodinger cells as well as all 10 digits from 0 to 9, meaning the values 0 to 16 would appear on the line. The other (and apparently correct approach) is to have the line dip horizontally/vertically in one location instead of diagonally, and since doing that would require another schrodinger cell, which could only exist in box 5 (otherwise, we got problems with the arrow), What I don't know is why the first scenario is impossible, and I feel like that point was glazed over too quickly...
I think a part of the rules are missing, namely the part that would say "no numbers/values can repeat in any column, row or 3x3 box". But it's probably correct to assume that is true
1:00:29 Why can’t I just say “the difference between r8c2 and r6c4 must be the sum of the arrow cells in box 8 and 7, so r8c2 must be 7”? I can kind of follow Simon’s logic, but it seems sooo complicated. Mind you, I can only ever do small bits of logic within a monstrous puzzle like this one, so I honestly appreciate Simon being able to somehow conquer the whole thing and also explain his reasoning on the go.
r8c2 is an S-Cell that has value 15. It's not "7 or 8” like central pencil marks usually mean. It's a cell that is both 7 and 8 simultaneously. r6c4 doesn't become 7. It was known to have a value of 11, and was either (4 and 7) or (3 and 8). Once he learned r4c8 was a 7, that told him one of the digits in r6c4 was a 7, so it had to be 4 and 7.
@@RichSmith77 I think I kind of got that, but my argument seemed to make sense anyway, even though I was not able to phrase it so you could understand it. I can’t re-think it now, however. It was probably a logical short-circuit anyway.
Simon, in the future please don't use purple on top of the fog. It's virtually invisible to see. Red, blue or dark green seems to be working just fine.
@@smylesgHe can alter the colours on the main palette (and has one for purple recently), but I don't think he can change the colours available via the pen tool. That would need a change by the software developer, Sven.
Simon often does things I can't see coming - but he can often be quite slow in doing the obvious I think. Like getting the S-cell positions once he's done the initial path logic. He's still a lot cleverer than I at these kinds of puzzles though! It's just amazing how different people see things in different ways - some things I find obvious he takes time over, and vice versa. Amazing way human brains work.
this was driving me nuts from the beginning. It isn't that he draws incorrect conclusions, but that he then doubts himself and spends five minutes confirming that he was right all along.
Yes same, i got all the S-cells placed immediately because the 18 length limit plus the cells which must be placed in boxes 3 and 5 then dictates most of the path and this then defines all the S-cells in every other box. The rest of the puzzle took me about 90 minutes, but that first step was 5 minutes max.
I think that's part of what has made his videos so helpful for me. We see totally different things, so I get to improve exactly the stuff I'm weak at through his understanding. I've learned a lot as a result.
1:05:34 I am stunned by the sheer MESS of this puzzle. You have left so much garbage behind that it's no wonder you can't see anything. But anyways, where is the natural 8 on the big renban loop? It's in one of two places, R1C4 or R7C4. Both of those see R9C4, so that's not an 8. Now you have a [35] pair in box 8 so you now know R7C4 is an 8.
@@Kleyguerth I understand that. I'm saying the rules were unclear, they didn't specifically say that. Or else I wouldn't have given up as quick as I did
I clearly missed something -- why can't the renban loop be 17 cells, long, with 0 thru 9 singles, then 7 schroedinger cells? Can't it miss out on boxes 5 and 7 altogether?
This threw me for a loop as well. The reason this is not the case is if the loop traveled from r7c4 to r6c3, you'd see a bit of the pink line in the fogless r7c3
There was a 15 off the purple renban line in box 7, but there still needed to be a 15 value on the purple line. Values in S-Cells can repeat, so long as the composition is different. The purple renban, being of length 18, needed every consecutive value from 0 to 17, including its own 15 value. Simon didn't make a mistake.
Because all of the Schrodinger cells had values of 10 and above. At that point of the video Simon was tracking where the 3 or 4 value that had to appear on the renban line could live. :)
Thank you so much for solving Foggy Banren, and for all your kind words! It's probably obvious given the way fog-of-war puzzles work, but you pretty much exactly followed my intended solve path; the only difference was in how I placed the S-cells on the loop to begin with. (The question you never asked was: where in column 1 is the S-cell? And similar for row 9...) In particular, you placing the 7 in R4C8 at about 1:00:00 was my favorite deduction in the whole puzzle, and I'm so glad to see you worked it out exactly where I'd hoped. Well done!
that 7 was bonkers
well played
Awesome Puzzle, it took me ages to find out, that every place where the 8 could go on the pink ring sees the S-cell in Box 5. Was that intended that there we're two approaches for the crux of the puzzle?
Brilliantly put together! I didn't solve it, but seeing Simon solving it, was a delight. Kudos.
I have to ask, was the minimum 12 S cells(R3C7 or R1C5) being surrounded by 012 cells intentional to make pencil marking harder?
Brilliant puzzle by the way, I loved it!
@@goldcakes Not really, I just ended up with a lot of 0/1/2s in those areas because of how the other digits worked out, and decided to use them for another long arrow. Thanks!
I don't know if Darth Paradox set this puzzle specifically for Simon, but it feels like they did. Simon often says "I'm not sure I'm supposed to see that" when referring to lines that pass over corners of cleared cells, so Darth Paradox made a puzzle to exploit exactly that.
Edit: Solved in 58:11.
I didn't specifically remember Simon remarking on that corner-crossing aspect when I made this, but I can tell you that I definitely needed to make the lines extra thick to make that corner logic unambiguous...
@@chrisbattey The puzzle telegraphs that we're supposed to use those slightly visible lines crossing the corners, otherwise some of those visible cells would pointless, which removes the ambiguity over whether we're supposed to be allowed to use them.
@@davidenas Except in some fog puzzles some diagonals are offset to hide that they do cross. I think puzzles like this are bad unless it's specified that you should be able to see them.
@@runefevang5026 Sometimes I'm not sure if we're allowed to use those corners, but I think the way this puzzle was presented made it clear we're supposed to use them. It's one thing to have one thing like that, but having that many on the starting grid couldn't be a coincidence.
Simon: Clears Fogs
Also Simon: Have I made a mistake?!
After struggling for a half-hour, I needed a hint ... specifically, I needed that cell r7c3 did not have a bit of purple in it. From there, I was (eventually) able to solve this one. It still took me nearly two hours in total.
Crazy puzzle!
Thank you for the birthday shout-out!! 3:29
the deduction at 1:00:00 was just amazing. i did it almost in reverse. i asked where 8 was in the red squares. it's in 1 of 5 cells, which at first sounds useless, but every single one sees r4c6 and so it cant contain an 8.
That's actually the way I have it phrased in my solve notes - R6C4 has either a 7 or an 8, but all of the possible cells for the single 8 on the Renban loop see that cell...
This specific step is one of the single most impressive pieces of logic I've ever seen here, and that is a high bar. For it to take combining several kinds of deductions in almost every box at once and be mid-solve was astonishing.
If you keep the loop plotted out the way you did at first, it makes locating the s-cells almost automatic.
(It was literally the only thing I was able to do on my own 😅)
Yeah, I kept shouting 'draw the loop!' at the screen at the start. Establishing where the line needs efficiency sorts out the s-cells like a charm. 😆
I solved this puzzle on LMD for the last 7 days on and off. Nice to see it featured on the channel. I loved all the deductions and how the thick purple line defined the majority of the logic from break in to finish.
As a programmer, I expand the Hex number a little bit and used A-H to represent 10-17. That is really helpful but I still spent 162:35 to solve this puzzle before watching this video.
With Simon's help, I found my solution had some flaws. I missed some possibility and it was very lucky that I didn't meet paradox.
Anyway, what a crazy and brilliant puzzle!
Is the fog of war sudoku paradox that Simon would never normally use live answer check and yet when he fills in a digit in a fog puzzle that already has all the fog around it cleared worries because he doesn't have confirmation it's the correct fill? ;)
I've always found this funny too
It is almost as strong of a paradox that Simon refuses to do sudoku in a sudoku puzzle. Using absolutely every clue or variant clues before even scanning for sudoku digits. And yet he still tip-toes through each puzzle remarkably.
Oh what a beautiful puzzle!
My husband and I needed Simon to show us that the pink / purple renban was 18 cells long. All the other breakthroughs, my husband and I managed to get to on our own (even if it took the better part of 90 minutes).
Identifying the S-cells in each box turned out to be far easier than it looked at first glance
Love the long videos. Had to watch over a couple of days but definitely worth it.
Thanks so much, Simon. Breathtaking, as always. I’d like to offer a little trick that helps me just with keeping the pencil marks straight- if I need to mark something other than the regular way, I colour it yellow, like a post-it note. So where you had green s-cells, once I’d figured out one was, say, 15, I kept the regular 6789 in the box, but tagged it yellow as well, and put a 1 and a 5 in the corner, and that is my reminder not to confuse myself by thinking they are regular corner marks. Yellow just means go extra carefully. :)
Finished in 74:29, what an amazing puzzle! Watching the video I think I figured out the S-cells more quickly, which helped a lot
1:07:16 finish. I flew through the beginning of the puzzle, labelling all of the schroedinger cells (I temp colored cells that I had ruled out, and removed that coloring once I placed all nine of the ones I needed), but then I stalled in the middle, taking almost 10 minutes to spot the trick about placing 7 on the pink line. Such a fun puzzle, and keeps you thinking right to the end. Excellent!
NOTE: I had started using the pen tool, but noticed that it was basically a distraction as the fog began to clear, so I stopped using it and erased all of my lines. I think that is part of why Simon struggled for a while in the beginning/middle.
I was stuck for 50 minutes... until I Watched the video and Simon pointed out that the big renban loop does not go directly from r6c3 to r7c4 because there is no loop peeking out from the fog and showing in r7c3 unlike the other unfogged cells. I was all good from there!
Much easier way to break through the S square logic in the beginning is to consider that there needs to be an S square in every row and column, which you could instantly place in row 9 column 6 and row 4 column 1 as they are the only square the line goes through in their own row/column. Great solve!
Saw that as well quite early in the video. Seems like a logical next step to me, was waiting for Simon to discover this 😊
Life has been very rocky
The state of Arizona just pulled my disability status, so I am struggling a bit currently with bills, but you have me laughing and smiling, regularly - thank you.
@@hewholimpsmartin well, congratulations on being cured of your disability. The miracles of science that bureaucracy can accomplish are second to none.
/S obviously
@@ptt95 brain trauma in 2001 - I will be "handicapped" for the rest of my life - good news is the state re-approved me for disability status. Being disabled is no fun but being disabled and not being able to collect disability is far worse. For 2 months my stepdad was paying my rent but now I can afford my own bills again. 😅
This is one of those puzzles where I’ll just have to take your word for it
I finished in 106 minutes. That was one the more enjoyable opening to a puzzle I have done. I just drew the minimum connections and it was correct. That felt really good. Then, the challenge of the puzzle showed itself. I think my favorite was spotting the geometry of where the 8 could go on the pink renban, which confirmed what r6c4 had to be. Great Puzzle!
It might be useful to have different colours for Schrödinger cells and regular pencil marks.
Those two pink Xs have been staring at me for about an hour and I don’t think they’re going to go away
well DANG IT... I'm proud of myself for being on the right track to start this puzzle but I totally missed not being able to see it in the corner in box 7... dang it!
Me too 💩💩💩
I got hung up a long time before I finally noticed that. Noticing the absence of something is a thing humans find intrinsically much more difficult, don't feel bad!
1:43:53 - Wow! I got the idea very quickly though I did miss the missing corner of the pink renban. Brilliant puzzle though - loved it!
How does Simon always manage to ask the wrong question? Every, single, day!
Anywhere from about 25:00 to 33:00: the easy way to move forward is to consider column 9, row 9, column 1, row 1. Each of those have only one cell that can be the S-cell. The rest of the S-cells then fall into place.
Very proud that i almost automatically found the pink loop and the first zero in about 5 minutes, while that took Simon the better part of half an hour. 😁 My solve aftwerward took way longer than Simons 😂
What a brilliant puzzle, and truly an excellent solve by Simon. Took me just over 12² minutes to solve, which is pretty good for me on this level of difficulty. :)
Also at 1:08:25 : "...Maverick is about to fly over... (pregnant pause) ... Is that helpful at all or not?" - Well I think we've established that Maverick is not really that helpful, Simon, come on.
Very fun and entertaining. Great fog with schrodinger cells by Darth Paradox! Lovely solving Simon!!
40:08
Quite possibly the best fog of war sudoku I've seen. ❤
This is a wonderous puzzle. I enjoyed the solve deeply, and would hope more of the Patreon reward puzzles were in this vein. Great, great.
Really cool puzzle. 89:21. Stalled for a bit at the beginning trying to interpret "contain", which is not the usual term for Renban lines and specifically ambiguous when we're talking about loops --- eventually semi-convinced myself that enclosure was not going to lead to progress, then came to the video to verify by seeing what Simon assumed it meant, which is of course always correct (because you'd fix the posted rules if it weren't).
Amazing puzzle! The hardest fog of war i ever solved, needed help at 1:00:00 part.
Puzzles like this make mine look pitiful, maybe I should stop setting... :(
Just kidding, puzzles like these are an inspiration and stoke the coals of the setting part of my brain!
You better never stop setting!! 😁
Brilliant puzzle, loved it!
The "grey square" does not show up in dark mode.... Fun fact! The grey square is not needed for the solve, but it lead to Simon doing what took me 10+ minutes in about 4 seconds. Without the grey square you run into trouble with the digits fitting in box 7. You need the 8 and 9 from the S-cell and the 2 beneath it to all fit into columns 2&3 of box 7 and run into trouble if r5c0 is 3, giving you the makeup of the small loop. My solve path was quite different than Simons after this part (his adventure with 4 and 7), but I don't think the grey square is the cause for that.
→ I think the discussion at the beginning (where is the loop and the Schrödinger cells) is much easier when first drawing all possible options for the loop in, which gives many options for the Schrödinger cells, and then slowly removing these options by doing Sudoku on Schrödinger cells (which then also constrains the loop somewhat).
→ 58:05 "Is there any way zhat anything is restricted" - I also got stuck here for quite a while. Finally (after pencil-marking much of the grid) I found the same thing which Simon did - if you make the Schrödinger cell at c4r6 a 38, there is no place left for a plain 8 on the loop. (I only noticed this after a quite deep bifurcation (starting elsewhere) got into a contradiction.)
→ 1:11:00 "I got a 01 pair ... I don't know what that means." - I originally wrongly interpreted the meaning here to say that the arrow always has a 012 on it, making r1c5 a value of 13. But actually it means that the arrow has either 200 or 211, i.e. r1c5 has a value of 12 or 14. (And 14 is made impossible by that 69 pair in the column.)
→ 1:16:17 "So c2r3 is different toc6r2" ... and both see c6r3, making it a 2, which then unwinds more in box 3 and the yellow arrow. (noticed shortly afterwards.)
Finished in 45:57. Lovely logic throughout the puzzle with the different renban loops and arrows leading you steadily to a solution.
Fun puzzle!
You could have asked: Where is the Schrödinger cell in row 1 or 9? As it can't be in box 1 or 9 it must bei in box 2 and 8.
More to the point in col 1 and row 9 the purple line only touches one cell, therefore....
Right. All of us were yelling at him. It was really quite obvious but he still does a great job. He needed to realise that it was one s cell in each row, Column and not just box.
@@tomkinsg Simon is the easy way to easy....
I found the break-in (i.e. where all the S-cells need to be) quite fast, and then got some progress. But at some point I got stuck. I had to pause it, and then restarted today after a few days of break. Total time 138:43, solve counter 2904. I'll watch Simon do it later.
I'm hanging on the edge of my seat watching Simon find the solution to this impossible to me puzzle
I think it would be both better for viewers and for Simon (it often confuses him and makes it difficult to see stuff) if he got rid of colors once we’ve used them for something that he only needed it for like 5min. Leave the green for s cells and maybe even red for the other ones on the path, but blue for 4 was done after like a couple of minutes, why leave it there and make it confusing?
What a great puzzle! Thank you.
Finally done took 74 min 49 seconds. Great puzzle
I may have missed the one cell I needed to know about at the start (classic error!) but after that the puzzle was absolutely stunning. All credit to Darth Paradox for creating this fog of war masterpiece. :)
Very late to this puzzle but I'd be remiss if I didn't praise it. So much fun doing on the heels of the recent bodysnatcher/doubler renban puzzle. I found the S cells faster than Simon, but that business with placing the natural 7 took me forever to spot. I marvel at how Simon avoids Just Staring for long periods like that. I think he must have a clearer mental inventory of all the possible weak points at any given stage of solving (unless they involve sudoku, of course).
note to myself : drop the pride and ask for help by watching Simon's video instead of staying stuck 3 hours in front of your computer...
"... I'll just give it another 5 minutes... I just need one small breakthrough... then I'm sure I'll have cracked it"
Been there too often. 🙂
"Non-repeating set" was crucial language missing from the rules about renban loops. I know a mathematical set implies non-repeating but conditioning leads me to expect clear rules and renban rules always state it as though it wasn't implicit/obvious.
Rules I'm reading say, "consecutive".
If you're right, then I'm gonna talk to my lawyer getting my consecutive sentences to be concurrent....since it's the same thing. Right? 🙂
Mathematical sets, on the other hand....kinda no limit. They can be empty, have repeats, be infinite....or even contain mulitiple infinities which themselves may be the same....or not. Funky stuff!
As for how much precision is necessary....it's really arbitrary. Define words, or assume a 'standard' meaning, or meaning in the context of Sudoku.
And, ya, I'm getting a little extreme. Which is kinda the point. Gotta draw the line somewhere.
I noticed this as well, but it was easy enough for me to deduce that the initial break-in would be impossible if repeated digits were allowed.
Moreover, I think that two identical digits are not consecutive. Hence the usual specification _"non-repeating"_ in the definition of renban is redundant in my opinion.
@@Paolo_De_Leva Right, identical digits are not consecutive, and neither are 1 and 18... not all digits are consecutive to all other digits in a non-repeating set of them. A digit is only consecutive to at most 2 digits in the set. (er, at least if it's strictly non-repeating).
@@Mephistahpheles I didnt recite all the words. Yes consecutive was clear. Non-repeating was missed. In fact in a mathematical set elements do not repeat. In sudoku they could. Right: it's arbitrary and up to the rulemaker to set the rule and spell it out.
Brilliant! I don't believe I could have solved this...
This 1:05:15 would be a good time to tidy up the grid.
There’s so much colouring going on that it’s easy to miss the green renban loop in the bottom right of the grid.
54:41 At this stage of the solve, couldn't Blue go in R2C3 if it was Schroedinger 39?
Perhaps i need to keep thinking here. Is the quote of the year!
if you realize that you need to be efficient with your S-cells on the loop it's pretty easy. every R/C/B needs one S-cell: there's only one loop-cell in column 1, box 3, box 5, row 9.
I got lucky with my start.
I originally thought the minimum length of the pink line was 17 cells, and they would be 1-17, totally forgetting zero was available. I then realised that would need eight S-Cells on the line, for values 10-17, but I was only visiting 7 boxes. "Oh wait, I can dip into box 5, make it 18 long, and that's okay because I can include a zero, that I'd previously forgotten about, on the line!".
I completely overlooked that a zero on the line meant it could have been 17 long after all, with only 7 S-Cells, for values 10-16!
At least I managed to fix my error during Simon's solve. I paused the video and saw that no pink line being visible in the corner of r7c3 ruled out a 17 cell pink line, before Simon mentioned it. I didn't see it during my original solve though.
(I also didn't find the 7 in box 6 step. I'd had to do some pretty heavy bifurcation at that point, even though I knew I shouldn't.)
I felt good getting started on this, but I got stuck at the point where Simon put the 7 in box 6, I just couldn't see that.
Similar for me. I ended up making progress, but only by bifurcating, and to an extreme depth too. I wasn't very satisfied with my approach.
I paused the video right where Simon declared he'd seen the next step, and I was then able to find it, thanks to knowing what he was looking at (distributing the values 0-9 around the red cells). That made me feel better, but I'd have never found it on my own.
GAH it took me so long to realise that the pink line *wasn't* visible in a particular box, was literally stuck for 30 minutes at that point.
Solved it with help from the video.
33:15 This is the hard way. The easy way is: ask where is the Schrödinger in Row 1 and 9 and in Col 1 and 9. this are colorable since 19:47
I believe the setup of the S-cells could have been done faster after realizing that you need 8 cells on the loop and box 7 containing the one not on the loop, as well as the idea of 3 rows/columns needed to connect everything, by then realizing that every row/column other than c2/r8 needs an S-cell on the loop and that can only be r4c1 for c1 and r9c6 for r9.
When trying to place the Schrodinger cell's at the start, I found it more intuitive to wonder where the Schrodinger cells were in the first and last rows and columns. They get forced onto the most extreme positions on the loop by this and that. Get to the same place though.
I forgot R4C1 wasn't an 89 pair. Which meant I went through a lot of trouble on the grey arrow than necessary before realising.
Very smart artwork.
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Oh wow, I didn't notice the fact that we don't see the pink renban peeking in R7C3. I knew the renban either goes through R6C4 or not (that's the only extra cell which would give it another box with an S-cell), but couldn't figure out which, and not for lack of trying. But I could tell that if it *doesn't* go through R6C4 then there's no way to continue the solve, so I just assumed it does.
After finishing the solve, I looked at the video to find out what I was missing, and was not disappointed (except with myself, maybe).
60:36 for me. Feel pretty good about my performance here. I love fog puzzles.
Incredible. The XV clues were a 0v5 and 0x10. Just mocking normal sudoku math :)
How about using extended hex to pencil mark sums greater than 9? A for 10, B for 11, etc. up to H for 17.
"Perhaps I need to keep thinking here"
78:04 with two looks at the video. For some reason, I was thinking I needed a pair of digits to make a 1 on the purple line? And I didn't think about putting a 0 on it. I was ALMOST there to start. Then I needed the help to place the 7s in the second half.
Amazing video, so worth it
That was really cool
"That's Three In The Corner, Thatsthreeinthespotlightlosingitsreligion" - Simon, in every puzzle with a 3 in the corner. lol
"All we have to do..." is very funny
I love Simon. So great in sudoku puzzles. But applying those rules to the Schrödinger cells? Which is the S-cell in row 1, row 9, column 1 and column 9? Apply sudoku from the S-cells in box 5 and 3. All goes from there. Still he immediately spots the more important part, the break-in to the puzzle.
Absolutely no idea where to start, so gave up immediately.
Would someone be able to explain the deduction at 12:00 that states the pink RENBAN line MUST be 18 cells long?
If you go directly through and achieve the minimum geometric length of 17 cells, you will skip box 5 and box 7, meaning there is a maximum of 7 Schrodinger cells as well as all 10 digits from 0 to 9, meaning the values 0 to 16 would appear on the line.
The other (and apparently correct approach) is to have the line dip horizontally/vertically in one location instead of diagonally, and since doing that would require another schrodinger cell, which could only exist in box 5 (otherwise, we got problems with the arrow),
What I don't know is why the first scenario is impossible, and I feel like that point was glazed over too quickly...
I think a part of the rules are missing, namely the part that would say "no numbers/values can repeat in any column, row or 3x3 box". But it's probably correct to assume that is true
The rules usually specify that digits/values can't repeat on a renban. The rules here do not.
I stayed ahead is Simon all through this solve until the blue squares. I got stuck. Every time I think I’m smart I see how Simon is smarter.
With him walking me through that step i got the rest though! I really enjoyed this challenge.
Some clever logic in this puzzle, but it didn't half mess with my head at the start. I lost the ability to count.
1:00:29 Why can’t I just say “the difference between r8c2 and r6c4 must be the sum of the arrow cells in box 8 and 7, so r8c2 must be 7”?
I can kind of follow Simon’s logic, but it seems sooo complicated.
Mind you, I can only ever do small bits of logic within a monstrous puzzle like this one, so I honestly appreciate Simon being able to somehow conquer the whole thing and also explain his reasoning on the go.
r8c2 is an S-Cell that has value 15. It's not "7 or 8” like central pencil marks usually mean. It's a cell that is both 7 and 8 simultaneously.
r6c4 doesn't become 7. It was known to have a value of 11, and was either (4 and 7) or (3 and 8). Once he learned r4c8 was a 7, that told him one of the digits in r6c4 was a 7, so it had to be 4 and 7.
@@RichSmith77
I think I kind of got that, but my argument seemed to make sense anyway, even though I was not able to phrase it so you could understand it.
I can’t re-think it now, however.
It was probably a logical short-circuit anyway.
Im very confused
Well said bud, this is a common feeling for me with these harder puzzles. Good stuff though!
Simon, in the future please don't use purple on top of the fog. It's virtually invisible to see. Red, blue or dark green seems to be working just fine.
I've asked this, but so far to no avail. Even a different purple might help.
@@smylesgHe can alter the colours on the main palette (and has one for purple recently), but I don't think he can change the colours available via the pen tool. That would need a change by the software developer, Sven.
1.18.16 for me. Love this one.
Simon often does things I can't see coming - but he can often be quite slow in doing the obvious I think. Like getting the S-cell positions once he's done the initial path logic. He's still a lot cleverer than I at these kinds of puzzles though! It's just amazing how different people see things in different ways - some things I find obvious he takes time over, and vice versa. Amazing way human brains work.
this was driving me nuts from the beginning. It isn't that he draws incorrect conclusions, but that he then doubts himself and spends five minutes confirming that he was right all along.
Yes same, i got all the S-cells placed immediately because the 18 length limit plus the cells which must be placed in boxes 3 and 5 then dictates most of the path and this then defines all the S-cells in every other box. The rest of the puzzle took me about 90 minutes, but that first step was 5 minutes max.
I think that's part of what has made his videos so helpful for me. We see totally different things, so I get to improve exactly the stuff I'm weak at through his understanding. I've learned a lot as a result.
As someone that cant do these puzzles. Everything i can do he tends to gloss over. And everything i cant, he sees. His brain is always on hard mode😂
"could be monstrously hard" *checks time* yep.
The Question is where in row 9 is the S-Cell ^^ great video as always ❤
If Sven did do such an update the solution would include S cells. Currently S cells are not a part of the solution.
There's a new puzzle game out that would be ideal for you to stream. It's called Guayota. Based on the myths of the Canary Islands.
105:56 Pretty confident this is the hardest puzzle I've ever solved 🙂
1:05:34
I am stunned by the sheer MESS of this puzzle. You have left so much garbage behind that it's no wonder you can't see anything.
But anyways, where is the natural 8 on the big renban loop?
It's in one of two places, R1C4 or R7C4.
Both of those see R9C4, so that's not an 8. Now you have a [35] pair in box 8 so you now know R7C4 is an 8.
been refreshing youtube since the clock hit one minute left for the video 😂 now to watch this one with some chocolate ice cream!!
What threw me was the rules didn't say 'no repeats allowed on renbans', so I thought that was committed on purpose
The way to think about is: is a number consecutive with itself?
@@Kleyguerth I understand that. I'm saying the rules were unclear, they didn't specifically say that. Or else I wouldn't have given up as quick as I did
@@Kleyguerth Is a 3 consecutive with a 1 on a 123 renban?
So wait.. there are not repeats?
@@maljamin Correct. No repeats
I clearly missed something -- why can't the renban loop be 17 cells, long, with 0 thru 9 singles, then 7 schroedinger cells? Can't it miss out on boxes 5 and 7 altogether?
This threw me for a loop as well. The reason this is not the case is if the loop traveled from r7c4 to r6c3, you'd see a bit of the pink line in the fogless r7c3
@@thendcomes ahh crap you're right, thanks for the reply
@@HikingEngineerI spent far, far too long on that getting really frustrated. I hope the rest of the puzzle goes well for you
Missed opportunity to call them “renbands”
That was terrific, but in the last two minutes he missed that 15 had already been filled, so he got the last group of digits wrong.
There was a 15 off the purple renban line in box 7, but there still needed to be a 15 value on the purple line.
Values in S-Cells can repeat, so long as the composition is different. The purple renban, being of length 18, needed every consecutive value from 0 to 17, including its own 15 value.
Simon didn't make a mistake.
I stuck at the red arrow. Didn't understand the "does not branch" rule mean the circle has only one arrow line.
Schrodinger strikes AGAIN...!
55:04 why is it not on the schrodinger cell?
Because all of the Schrodinger cells had values of 10 and above. At that point of the video Simon was tracking where the 3 or 4 value that had to appear on the renban line could live. :)
Titi's time: 01:35:57
36:22 this is probably obvious but why can't r6c4 have a minimum value of 10? Why 11?
r9c6 must be 10 and is on the purple line.
@@hnizelthis was driving me crazy too thank u for explaining