Brightline West: Rail Revolution or Waste of Time?
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- Опубликовано: 28 ноя 2023
- High speed rail from Las Vegas to LA --- and by "LA" I mean Rancho Cucamonga -- cleared another big hurdle recently, so let's dive into the service and figure out how much it's going to change transportation dynamics between one of the US' busiest city pairs for travel.
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Previous CityNerd Videos Referenced:
- Car-Free Las Vegas Boulevard: • Banning Cars from the ...
- High Speed Rail in Spain: • Passenger Rail in the ...
- Lifestyle Centers: • What Makes Lifestyle C...
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Resources:
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- www.railwayage.com/regulatory...
- www.brightlinewest.com/
- hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads...
- www.railwayage.com/passenger/...
- www.delta.com/us/en/check-in-...
- www.visitorlando.com/blog/pos...
- metrolinktrains.com/globalass...
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OK, I lied, I actually do read the comments -- but only the top ten. This pinned comment, however, is the only one YOU should be reading: NEBULA LIFETIME is back and available for the holidays in 2023! Using my custom link is a HUGE help for my channel: go.nebula.tv/lifetime?ref=citynerd
Also, a couple notes -- I misread the Desert Wind timetable, it was indeed only operating three days a week, but I got the days wrong for the LA-LV segment (but they're shown in the timetable I used). Also, I misspoke on the Brightline trip arrival time from the Victoria Gardens Cheesecake Factory; it is indeed 8:05pm, as shown in the graphic, and not before 8pm. If I made any other life-altering mistakes, I don't wanna know about it.
Why do you like cheesecake so much?
You do realize by saying you only read the top ten...then readers will be less likely to upvote "their competition" or even write comments at all. Less upvotes = less comments = less engagement = slight penalty in the YT algo which loves engagement.
@@AaronSmith-sx4ez however there's non-rewarding points for honesty.
What W school is that jacket from?
Brightline has actually changed their plans to an hourly service rather than every 45, so that they can offer a timed transfer to the metrolink san bernardino line
A sensible change? In this economy?
Shorter, every half-hour trains? That would be even nicer.
@@fogfish Every 30 mins on San bernardino line is in the works but with the western half in the median of I-10 its a struggle to run frequent service west of El Monte. East they are working on double tracking the whole line slowly.
@@bringerofregera train every 60 instead of 45 minutes is also 33% less capacity which may have been why BL wanted 45 minutes in the first place. Someday Metrolink may do their train every 30 minutes and BL will too, but that's one of multiple future expensive improvements Metrolink and HSR could do that benefit BL.
@@flinx yeah, ideally it would be every 30 mins, especially on weekends. I just think the connectivity to existing public transit, especially in early stages, is a higher priority that can reduce travel times despite lower frequency.
I actually like the idea of the freeway median rail line from an aesthetic perspective. Imagine sitting in bumper to bumper traffic and seeing the Brightline zip right past you at 180mph. Would be pretty good advertising, I imagine.
issues arise because of the limited space and relatively tight curves. track maintenance becomes more difficult with limited access, double track may not fit, and speeds can be limited by curves that were not designed with high speed rail in mind. putting sections on viaduct could solve the double tracking problem, as well as allowing the track to smooth out some curves by not following the median exactly, but at a significantly increased price tag compared to running rail at ground level
@@winterwatson6811 The 15 median over most of this trains distance is significantly wider than you might think (60 ft+). Besides, if ridership increases significantly enough to justify second tracking the whole run, than it likely will justify shifting (or removing) freeway lanes to make room where needed.
Yeah here in Perth Aus they have quite a few of the commuter train lines stuck in the median and it’s pretty awesome to watch them hammer down the freeway. You just also need to make sure the bus service at the stations is good though as the stations can be harder to get to
Which is pretty much what BART does to some of its lines and is very effective at attracting people (pre-pandemic)
Not a median line but there are a couple of stretches in the German Autobahn where you can safely go 100-120 mph and the trains next to the Autobahn are still overtaking you much faster.
I think on a 70-85 mph highway where the trains are even closer to the cars this should be even more impressive.
I for one would be skeptical about a Brightline-Cheesecake Factory partnership for the dining cars, but it would certainly be apropos given the endpoints
The shade in this comment will blot out the sun.
I now want a Cheesecake Factory-themed dining car complete with faux-Arabesque detailing on the railcar's exterior
STOP that's crazy sinful!... ADD Gold leaf to mine
They put 3-6 in of plaster in the car to replicate the vaulted ceilings.
@@stevekluth9060 amtrak chesscake car
Bear in mind the traffic in LA itself is hardly the biggest hurdle. Weekend traffic to/from Vegas can turn I-15 in the middle of the Mohave Desert into a parking lot.
Agreed. Anyone thinking they can speed between Barstow and Nevada to make up time has never driven I-15 to Vegas. It's busy enough normally and the different speed limits for trucks vs other vehicles mean frequently travelling at 55 mph despite the 70 mph speed limit. It's can get even slower on holiday weekends, not to mention the huge backup entering California where three lanes of traffic get funneled down to two lanes on the return trip.
Very true. I once suffered through a 4 hour traffic delay on I-15, absolutely crawling between Barstow and Primm. I was supposed to get home at 8 and didn't get there until midnight. Very unlikely that Brightline will ever have delays comparable to that since they're not sharing the track with anyone.
Your misspelling of “will very likely” as “can” leaves a little to be desired.
It depends on the time of day. My trips usually take less than 5 hours from Cerritos. If you leave the LA area between 9-10am on Saturday you can definitely zoom by all the way to Vegas. And come back on a Monday or Tuesday morning so you're back in LA by 1 or 2 pm so you miss most of the heaviest Rush Hour traffic. It's worth taking an extra vacation day or two.
I was kind of surprised he didn't mention that cause I've been stuck in traffic longer on the 15 getting to & from vegas than in DTLA area on vegas trips.
As a Vegas resident originally from LA who loves trains (and chilaquiles) this video is disturbingly well-targeted to me specifically, and I appreciate that. Very excited for Brightline West to get shovels in the ground. It may not be much faster, but taking a train is just so pleasant and stress-free compared to driving or flying.
You had me at chilaquiles.
It would be awesome if it were truly high speed. Imagine it would be a 21st century maglev the Chinese build that would take you about 60 min
The thing about Brightline, is they very clearly did not cut any corners regarding the overall experience. Everything from the kiosks you can use to book your ticket in the stations, to the bathrooms, to the USB chargers and free-wi fi, to the overall design, to the customer service. Everything feels clean and like you are traveling first class. It doesn't feel chaotic or stressful at all like an airport.
They cut corners where it costs the most, and that in the infrastructure part, like having single track instead of double, etc. They compensate for this with air refreshners and fancy waiting rooms, but I don't blame them; it's very much style over substance in that neck of the woods 🤷♂
In this case style over substance isn’t the worst thing (as long as it’s not dangerous). Outside of the Northeast Corridor (and even within it) the view of passenger rail is bleak. Brightline showing how nice trains can and should be will make people come around to rail.
@@alfredpoopykins8264 Passenger rail in the rest of the country has neither style nor substance; Brightline has style, I'll give them that.
They are currently double tracking Florida though. They just wanted to open the line as fast as they could so they focused on completing one tracks so yeah @@alexverdigris9939
theres a big negative impact on the experience in them using airport style security
This feels like a worst-case scenario for Brightline. Hopefully, the local metrolink and other transit services would rearrange their services to facilitate people getting to the location of the Rancho Cucamonga terminus.
Brightline has already agreed to rearrange their schedule to match Metrolink with hourly service.
Wouldn't the worst case scenario be if it gets canceled entirely?
how
@@user-vo9wd6tx6c worst case republicans ban passenger rail for the entire US since it ran $1 over budget
@@erikawwad7653 This is California, not Wisconsin.
They should extend it via an upgraded and electrified commuter rail line, like the caltrain corridor
honestly, metrolink should have started electrifying the San Bernadino line already, especially with Brightline West, and eventually CA HSR on the horizon.
Before every electrfying the line, the line needs to be completely double tracked with an occasion triple track. From my understanding the line is mostly single track with passing sidings.
metrolink also needs to actually adopt in cab signaling so they can run at reasonable speeds. It would make sense to use whichever signaling system Brightline West chooses to use (ETCS would make the most sense, but is extremely expensive to implement)
I really have no ideia why they arent fully working on it already.. makes no sense that BL cant make it to Union
A great way to reduce costs is to electrify the line as you’re rebuilding the tracks.
I'm skeptical any HSR project that doesn't go downtown-to-downtown, and this video does a great job of explaining why.
Having easier access to an airport than the train station just reeks of policy failure.
tbf Los Angeles has been a one big policy failure on that front ever since it tore up its old tram network
It's hard to characterize a privately owned and operated service as a "policy" failure (at least, in a direct context).
Under the guise of "expediency", Brightline's business model minimizes its projects' exposure to scrutiny, deferring issues of unintended consequences for evaluation after the project has been completed...when it's typically too late and/or a lot more expensive to correct.
All they would need to do is electrify the line from rancho Cucamonga to LA Union station.
CAHSR already got brightline to use the same gauge tracks as them. So I believe what you’re really seeing here is how cheap corporations are vs how focused on citizen experience government entities are.
Ultimately, I believe the plan is that CAHSR will build HSR tracks between Rancho and Union station so that trains can be picked up from DTLA.
Also, brightline is literally only building two stations I believe (Rancho and Vegas). CAHSR will be building other stations along the route so that the HSR becomes accessible to more of the population.
@@ForelliBoyif the trams were on the roads like they were, then they will be in the same traffic. And you say "but wait, they would give them ROW's" and that might have happened....or it would have been easier to just dig a tunnel. Toronto has trams to an extent no one else does and they are having a hell of a lot of money and headaches to give them ROW's
The problem with rail (not only HSR) in the US is that in the end cars are still required for parts of the trip. Unlike in Europe where it is very possible to go around completely without cars (public transportation within a city, train in-between cities), US city design makes it nearly impossible to do so. Even if you arrive at a station downtown, it is very likely that the location you want to go to in the city requires a car to get to too. So, if it is car --> station --> train --> station --> car, people might take it is easier to simply have one mode of transportation.
The odd thing about why having a train to Disney World in Florida makes sense is that Disney World has an entire transportation system of buses, trams, monorail and boats that transports folks around the park, making a car obsolete. I like how Americans think that having public transportation in a theme park is critical but having one in their city is useless.
Because everyone knows that public transportation in the USA is only for people too poor to own a car. So, naturally those who do own cars have no need for it and don't want their tax dollars financing it all (even though everyone who pays taxes pays for highways, but I digress). This is why Brightline might actually succeed since it's a privately financed venture. The army of lobbyists from the Airline and Automotive industries won't be able to solicit the local, state, and federal governments to kill it's funding. In the end, this might just help change the way people think about public transportation.
People take planes even if they have to rent a car at the city they fly into.
Also, this route will primarily be LA people going to Vegas, not Vegas people vacationing to LA. Because Vegas is almost all on the strip, there’s not much need for a car except to get from the station to your hotel.
That is already an issue in the Miami - Orlando line. Both cities are heavily car oriented and people dont like Brightline if after getting there is going to be a 5 ubers a day operation. You can not even walk out of the station
perhaps the Deuce Bus Service will extend to the HSR service.@@pizzajona
I hear this argument a lot, and I think there's merit to it, but I think it's probably a bit overstated. I travel a lot in the US and rarely "need" a car. Ridehail/taxi if and when needed, but I'm usually located where I can walk to everything I need, and trying to figure out where to stash your car in a lot of cities' downtowns just really sucks and costs a lot
As an Orange County native, I'm still miffed they canceled the light rail project that would have gone from Fullerton to Anaheim's core area, through the Santa Ana civic center, down to John Wayne, and eventually out to the Spectrum. Having rail straight from John Wayne to the Platinum Triangle would be so, so good.
When did this get canceled? (I don't remember hearing about this project).
Agreed
Brightline should just build single trafk lines, connecting city pairs all over the country using their Florida diesel trains, and then set the ticket prices very high, till they can expand capacity. It’s about starting service as quick as possible, and have people experience HSR as many places as possible, cause then political support will catch up. All you rail advocates, who just dream of perfect and “true” HSR, and don’t understand the cost benefit reality of private companies, Brightline shouldn’t listen to you, cause high speed EMU’s, grade seperation, and electrification is very expensive, and takes way longer for service to start. And Brightline is all about the experience anyway, so 125mph and 110mph through crossings is totally fine, like in Florida. Gotta start somewhere, and be realistic, why Brightline Florida is profitable, and CAHSR isn’t.
Because whoever is in charge is own by the gas and oil companies.
The South OC residents didn't want the poorer Northern OC residents to have access to their neighborhoods. So they were against it.
It's disappointing that even though Metrolink owns (most of) the track from Rancho Cucamonga to LA union, they don't plan to do electrification for through service. Brightline could pick up the Slack and try to get dual-mode rolling stock to access Union station on certain trips, but one can only dream.
If Brightline really takes off, it's at least an option on the table. The rail is there, the extra investment is compatively small.
if its anything like florida, it could work as they are extending that service.. Of course brightline owns Florida East Coast rail, so that made things easier. Working with Metrolink could prove to be more difficult.
@@tvd1188 Florida East Coast Rail is owned by the Mexican company Grupo México.
It won't be high speed if it's dial mode through LA.
@@bubba842 110mph electrified rail service is still better than 79mph service using heavy diesel locomotives.
One thing to consider is that even if brightline never makes it to LA, the inland empire is the 12th largest metro area in the country at 4.6 million people ahead of San Francisco, Detroit, and Seattle. So there is still a lot of people that will be served.
Which is why the whole argument Citynerd makes about bad access is irrelevant. More people live out towards Riverside than towards LA, which means Brightline is going to do quite well at RC.
Yeah, I just did an overlay of LA onto my nearest metro area and most of that area is filled with sparse suburbs at best and much of it is still fields. Travel time through the entire city is about an hour with little to no traffic, but even worst case it's only 2 hours for anything short of a pile-up that shuts down all lanes.
Hell, I can leave my house at 5 and be at a common tourist destination in another state faster than you can drive from most of these locations to the station despite that tourist destination being roughly 3.33x farther away. Travelling in LA seems to suck quite a bit...
The advantage of Brightline is that with better public transit within LA the time to reach the station will radically decrease. The highways and airports will basically never get faster at this point.
Highways might get faster if there's some kind of congestion pricing scheme, otherwise totally agree. It would be tricky to implement one because of how polycentric and car centric LA is though. Maybe in 50 years.
1,000% agree. Metrolink is supposed to get major upgrades over the next coming years and they've already agreed to work with bright line on time tables.
The highways will get faster once public transit is good enough to get 20% of the cars off the road.
@@thatissomeBS But then people who didnt drive because of the traffic will now start using the highway. Induced demand would still mess it up.
@@Katthewm You're right, less traffic will at some point cause more traffic, but still less than now. The point is that two viable options will provide a balance that is much better than one viable option.
I suggest comparing the current brightline seating with what you get on one of those spirit flights. To say brightline is more comfortable than flying would be the understatement of the century.
It's not exactly fierce competition considering plane seats are just evolved medieval torture devices
Exactly. It's not even close.
also just not having to deal with going through an airport to get on a flight, i'd take the train every time
Friends don't let friends fly Spirit.
Love the freeway median trains! Cars going slower in traffic as the train zips by will get the idea
Median trains limit expansion. It woukld’ve been better to be freeway adjacent. Not a fan of that either.
Both views are correct. Median trains aren't great for transit, but they are perfect for promoting the service to frustrated drivers. For the US, maybe we need parking garages and median trains as a transition to achieving the people centered transit that we want and need.
It's half for infrastructure economies, half for advertising heh.
Small reminder that HSL in Europe are (typically) placed next to motorways an not inside them but you still get a view of the train going past the cars.
One positive I see of the median train is that it will be a visual advertisement for HSR at large. Millions are on this stretch of I-15 moving slowly. They are all going to get their doors blown off by the train while they're at-attention at the wheel of their expensive device, and seeing that is going to make a lot of people go "....why am I driving this instead of taking the train?"
180 mph works wonders over highway travel. I frequently take Amtrak's NE regional from my home north of Richmond to NYC. It is a 6 hour run. Then I have another 30 or so minutes on the C-train to my daughter's in Brooklyn. Driving direct is about 6 hours but I don't have the luxury of taking a nap at the wheel, plus tolls and gas usually make it more expensive than Amtrak. If Amtrak was able to raise its average speed to 120 over the DC to NYC sector, the transit time would be markedly reduced. I'm definitely a fan of high speed rail for short distances between major US cities. You profiled this once before, if I'm not mistaken.
Wouldn't flying be cheaper because JFK and LGA are on the Long Island side of NYC
I find Amtrak, even in the NE corridor, to only come close to coming out ahead cost-wise if it's just one person. Add a wife and kid(s), and even $50 a day to park in midtown Manhattan makes sense. It's only the driver who suffers.
Comparing it to a bad existing option kind of misses the point. These "better than what we've got" projects are inherently short-sighted...future generations get stuck with the bill for correcting half-baked "solution" shortcomings, and rightfully ask "why didn't they just design & build it right the first time around?" It's an especially relevant critique given that transportation projects in other places don't seem to suffer from a lack of vision.
@@ForelliBoyjfk is in queens
@@zo62queens is on long island
Thank you for the video! Interestingly, the city of Rancho Cucamonga is planning on converting the Victoria Gardens Lifestyle center into a mixed-use development neighborhood by infilling all of those parking lots you see in the aerial view. Also, the Brightline station in Rancho will be located in a new mixed-use neighborhood the city is planning around the station called the HART district. Tenatively, this district will connect to ONT airport via an underground people mover, and above ground it will connect to a new BRT line planned for the district. It's worth noting that the Inland Empire also has a huge chunk of the region's young population, and so it's a hot spot for people who go to Las Vegas. For these reasons, I find the project very interesting and full of potential, despite not connecting directly to LAUS. Cheers.
Sources?
@@PASH3227 check the city's master plan update. It's all in there. On the city's website.
An underground people mover? LA will do almost anything to avoid building proper integrated rail!
@@pizzajona well, originally the A line was potentially going to go through Rancho and RC Station with a terminus at ONT. But San Bernardino County didn't want to pay to fund the Rancho portion of the project so they got this wild idea of a tunnel between RC station and ONT instead. It is a bit ridiculous, but interesting! 🙃
That 3 hours to cross maybe two-thirds of the LA metro area is insane. You can cross the whole of Switzerland in 3 hours by car (3.5 hours by train, after repairs on one stretch are done) from the German to the Italian border (Basel to Chiasso, 5 pm on a Friday).
earlier this year I got stuck in gridlock traffic trying to get out of Las Vegas. Took me 7 hours before I had my turn-off to go to Bakersfield. So I hope Brightline help resolve that because it was such an awful experience.
All you hardcore transit nerds, you say the things we all already know in terms of issue, instead of being realistic and accepting a compromise for what can realisticslly be changed. It's like people wanting trams where funding for BRT can't even be found. The solution, dozens of small BRT lite projects, which together make a huge difference.
Brightline Florida took 11 years from when the project was announced in 2012 to opening the Orlando segment in 2023, and that was with 200 of the 240 mile route being built on existing rail ROW and not even high speed. I'd honestly be stunned if Brightline West can open before 2030.
That was a totally different company not to mention for the south Florida Intercity route 80 Miles construction started 2014 but finished in 2018. The rest to Orlando started after that and opened this year not a bad timeline. LA to Vegas goes through the middle of nowhere not nearly as hard as building through a metro.
you forgot 2 things - 1, people that drive will need to make stops along the way. - 2, For those of us that live in the Victor Valley (admittedly a fairly small group) will benefit tremendously from Brightline West. When we want to Las Vegas we will finally have an option that doesn't require us to fight everyone else on the freeway, and the rest of the time freeway traffic will be slightly better. That's a huge double win for the area.
I feel like they should rebuild their old station with a cool art deco and casino style. I feel like the best move LA can do is get more metrolink routes to go to that station unless they can get it to connect to Union Station in the future
I agree it's about time for an Art Deco renaissance
San Bernardino line connects to union station
I think Rancho Cucamonga should get an Art Deco redesign. LA Union Station is SO GORGEOUS and it shouldn't be touched!
@@carstarsarstenstesenn - that actually already happened. It was called the 1980's and it did not turn out well. I do like Art Deco but only the genuine historical Art Deco. Better to preserve what we have and not cloud the historical record. Modern architecture should be its own representation of its time.
@@brianwithoutay2291 That was post modernism though, which has a satirical nature to it, and I actually think some of that stuff was pretty good like the NBC Tower in Chicago.
I don't think it clouds the historical record at all--Art Deco was not long ago in the grand scheme of history, it has remained well known as a design style, and if there was a revival it would simply become a part of history.
There have been some more recent buildings that use Deco in a tasteful and elegant way:
The Rosehill, New York (2021)
Greenwich West, New York (2020)
The Fitzroy, New York (2019)
One Bennett Park, Chicago (2019)
30 Park Place, new york (2016)
Long time Vegas local who did the drive in reverse frequently to visit family in CA. I think the biggest issue for folks who come to Vegas is the lack of good public transit when they get there. The county needs to actually put in public transportation connecting the Strip, the airport, the new stadiums, downtown, UNLV, and the convention center. Should be easy since they are all so close relatively speaking. I wont hold my breath, afterall my folks bought their house when I was a kid in Henderson because of a plan at the time to utilize a rail line to the city with a station right next to where we lived, but of course it was canceled because everyone freaked out about it increasing traffic 🤦♂️
Indeed. I thought there were plans to expand the monorail? If they expanded it to the airport and sports venues that could be a game changer.
Granted, the location of the monorail stations at the rear of the casinos is not ideal but at least they would be directly connected to the airport and sporting venues.
They recently canceled a light rail proposal for Maryland Parkway. But as someone said below, getting the monorail to the airport or DTLV would be huge. But I don't think there is even a proposal at this point.
@@nealbroverman3348 It is embarrasing to use LV Monorail as some kind of temporary theme park ride for visitors rather than public transit for everyday residents since it is not reaching into all corners of Las Vegas Valley (Centennial Hills, west of Nellis AFB, along the N 5th Street, east Las Vegas (Charleston Blvd, Sahara Ave, Desert Inn Rd, Flamingo Rd, Tropicana Ave), Southern Highlands, Anthem, southern and northern part of Summerlin). Until our neighborhoods get tranform from single family houses to denser apartments/condos and businesses, we have to deal with automobile traffic.
Exactly and that's why i always drive to Vegas. This train seems to be a solution that doesn't work to a problem that doesn't exist.
Today’s bombshell: rail is more useful the closer you are to a station.
The fact that almost half of the average trip time getting from LA to Vegas is literally just driving across LA is actually insane to me. I think the only real issue here, is that if people already have to drive all the way to Rancho to catch Brightline, then they’ve already driven across most of the worst part of the whole drive (especially for the people west of downtown) meaning why not just go the rest of it, especially as I’d imagine finding someone willing to drive a total of 6 hours to drop you off at Brightline is probably unlikely for most people.
It only takes capturing the 'party leaders' to get people onto rail. Driving sucks. If they can make it relaxing or fun or easy to P&R at San Bernardino and into Vegas and keep it price competitive then I think they have a good chance of capturing market share.
Indeed. I wouldn't use this train for this reason. Brightline is a solution that doesn't work to a problem that doesn't exist.
It’s might be useful if you want to not pay state income taxes (Nevada) and still have affordable access to Los Angeles.
We need a national rail line connection all major and mud sized citys. Its very do able
so, people who can afford to fly all the time?
That almost doesn't make sense.
Of all the folks to see in this comments section lmao
Stop abusing your check mark dude. Super annoying.
Honestly, guys like CityNerd and NJB changed my view on life completely. Thank you! You are so right.
I used to be pro highway, pro suburbization, pro tax incentives for gas and wanted to move from Germany to Texas in order to own a big-a** Dodge Ram in it's natural habitat.
After several years of driving 50k km/a to push my career and therefore massive waste of my free time, loosing health and gaining weight, I started to hate cars. I take the train whenever I can and now plan to move to an apartment closer to the next subway station. The only solution for our modern traffic problems is investment in public transport, cars should be kept out of our cities.
And suburbs destroy our nature, I hate them! It takes forever to get from the city centre out to a nice lake in the woods, because of these stupid suburbs!
Wait. So you grew up in Germany and wanted to move to the States and drive a big a big truck? Or were your raised in the States moved there, and wanted to come back?
Welcome to Sanity. The only problem is not going crazy because everyone else is still Car Brained.
@@matthoward598 I grew up in Germany. We are originally from Poland with german heritage and therefore the whole family emigrated to western countries. I have visited relatives in NJ, IL, FL, VA and in Toron(t)o/Ca. So there has always been a connection.
Is 50k km equal to 50Mm?
@@craiganderson5556 50 000 kilometers equal 31 000 miles.
The worst thing about driving is the massive and unpredictable traffic in the metropolitan areas nowadays. I encountered many dangerous situations on the Autobahn. Cologne, Düsseldorf, Ruhr and Hamburg are worst in my opinion. Daily commuting to work is not comparable to a roadtrip on an empty highway in West-Texas.
One thing you did not consider was the return trip. The 15 on the way back can be even worse at the state line. I believe this will be a huge advantage. Also, i'm optimistic that maybe it would be a phase 2 to extend to DTLA? Just thinking how the florida brightline is moving forward to Tampa..
It's only bad if you don't leave Vegas early enough. I usually checkout around 8-8:30am and very rarely hit traffic on my way back to LA. I also get back by 1-2pm so I miss the rush hour traffic too since I usually leave Vegas on a weekday
@@mrxman581Same, it's the kiss of death to leave Vegas after 9am as you're just asking for trouble. We are early risers, so we're usually out of Vegas by 7-7:30 and home in LA before noon... however, we do the Pearblossom Highway route, so the 15 to Victorville, then 18/138 across to the 14, and 14/5 into Los Angeles (we never use the Cajon Pass).
I sensed a note of derision regarding your mention of railfanning in Cajon Pass. When I lived in San Bernardino, one of my favorite bike rides followed the Santa Fe tracks from Highland Avenue to Cleghorn Road. I hiked with my dogs along the tracks from the Glen Helen area to the railroad summit. The spot marked on Google maps is picturesque. The canyon narrows to the south of there as the line enters Blue Cut, which is named for the color of the rock in the area. A more famous railfanning location is Sullivan's Curve, which is near the intersection of Cajon Boulevard and Cleghorn Road.
Indeed. There are homes down there too. I had no idea until one day I got off the 15 just to see where the road took me.
Indeed. There are homes down there too. I had no idea until one day I got off the 15 just to see where the road took me.
I detected that too. You must remember, he is an elitist snob who looks down on Americans with disdain that would make a European proud of him. "Railfanning? What an idiotic hobby! Figures it is an American thing...tsk...tsk...tsk" is how he sounded there.
@@starventure Being an elitist snob is not such a bad thing. I look down on most of my fellow Americans too.
Kind of curious what price points will look like for Brightline vs the airline services. They're going to have to keep ticket prices pretty low to compete with Spirit, right??
Even if the rates are only equal, that's still superior, for the superior travel comfort experience. Do those ultra cheap flights give you a free carry-on luggage? Because the train most certainly will. Sometimes I can "fly" from SLC to Denver for $50 one way--unless I want a simple carry-on luggage, which could double the price.
And I'm willing to bet most of those going from LA to Vegas are staying overnight with an 8 hour round trip. Not to mention with low cost flights the seats are small and ur almost in the fetal position for the flight
@@thatoneotherotherguy There are existing LA-LV flights that are even cheaper than that, some with carry-on (e.g. Southwest). But flying sucks no matter what, and taking the train is easy and chill.
Look up brightline Florida prices, that gives an idea
I wouldn't use that train even if it was free.
With the Metrolink connection, honestly electrifying the line is the least of it issues. The biggest issue is that most of the San Bernardino line seems to be single tracked. That's going to be a major operational handicap for providing more frequent express train service. There also seems to be a few tight turns as you make your way west on the line.
They are adding more sidings as part of the Metrolink SCORE program. That might help headways. Tbh the ROW to double track the San Bernardino line is mostly there. If we lived in a serious country, they would just use imminent domain to grab the bit of land they need to totally electrify and double track the line.
@@kidtrunks2568 You should take a look at the line, quite interesting ROW. Most of the remaining single tracked segments are jammed in a narrow freeway median. So you don't need immediet domain, the land just next to the track are already gouverment owned freeway lanes on both sides. Good luck with removing them
@@Bauer-ke6lp if we lived in China they would have the freeway lane torn out in a week.
@@kidtrunks2568 If it was in Europe the freeway would have been build a bit further away.
Still doesn't change the current (political) situation
@@Bauer-ke6lp if you look at the single tracked segments, there is actually a freight rail that runs just north of the San Bernardino line most of the way. I wonder if that could be repurposed.
holding up high speed rail for environmental concerns (as millions carry on in cars) is the more socal thing ive ever heard.
fuck if this aint the truth. depressing as hell
That's why it's a waste of money and time. But even NEPA is pretty restrictive, especially under the current administration.
that's because the people in charge (no matter what they say) don't care about good outcomes; they care about being in charge of their contradictory fiefdoms
Environmental concerns aren’t “holding up the line”, that’s just the name given to do the tests and planning before construction has to happen. It’s tedious, but that’s just how we build things in this state.
@@concertino58 lol you mean that's how you don't build things in your state. Can't wait for my great grandchildren to ride the HSR line from LA to SF though
Wish it was downtown to the middle of the strip, but I sadly understand why we always end up with these suburban stations. Following even the most wholesome American projects is always deeply depressing (but yay for complete grade separation). Best wishes to them though.
Shin Hakodate is fine, Shin Osaka is fine, Shin Yokohama is fine, Shin Yamaguchi is fine, Shin Kobe is fine, Shin Tosu is fine, and a whole bunch of other Shin stations in Japan exist outside of the city to accommodate HSR. Sometimes it just doesn't make sense to build the train station in the City center for various reasons. Shin Hakodate is probably the prime example in Japan, because the train would have to go out of its way to get to downtown Hakodate when the goal is to build to Sapporo and Hakodate sits on a peninsula where it doesn't make sense to build the track. As for Osaka and Kobe it was to avoid built up areas and not destroy the existing buildings.
@@linuxman7777 sure, but (i only assume, havent looked at all these examples you bring up) there's adequate transit to actually get to those stations rather than, say, a 2 hour drive
@@cdw2468 Exactly, the issues with American urbanism compound themselves. A lot of things which would be perfectly fine in places with more human urbanism become terrible in the context of huge sprawling cities with no good public transport.
And yes, Shin Hakodate does link with local station with standard trains on top of being a Shinkansen terminus, so you can commute there with a local train. I know the situation well because Valence TGV in France also serves as a hub for local trains to make connection with the high speed TGV network. It's in the middle of nowhere but it doesn't matter cause it's a transportation hub in itself.
I’m just hoping it spurs an actual mass transit line from the station to downtown all the way up the strip. It’s a straight line ffs
@@cdw2468 for most in Japan there is. Shin Iwakuni may be an exception, but I think there is a bus service there
I had to double-take when I saw the Cheesecake factory to station drive time and distance. I knew LA was sprawling but I had no idea that it covers an area about the size of the south-west of England. Like I was trying to come up with a journey of a similar distance in London for comparison and if you start in East London it'll take you basically to the West of the country, hours outside of the city. Mind blown.
Because while it is generally the "LA Area" you are actually talking about multiple counties with many different hubs of activity. People who live there won't think of Orange, Riverside and San Bernardino counties as really being "LA" even though it's part of the "Greater LA Area". There's just so much sprawl that everything has filled in but many years ago a lot of these far flung suburbs in the adjacent counties were just farming towns separated from LA proper by citrus groves and cows and desert. Now it all just smooshes together connected by freeways and feels like one big sprawling mess.
The CAHSR alignment to San Diego is unknown, but one of the options is east to San Bernardino before heading south. If this gets built it would provide at least double tracked HSR tracks direct into Union Station, allowing Brightline trains to run to downtown LA or at least enabling easy transfers to CAHSR trains.
I think a quad tracked alignment between Union Station and Rancho Cucamonga would make sense, considering Metrolink, CAHSR, Brightline, and Amtrak to Phoenix and beyond could make use of that stretch.
I just recently tried to get to Bob Hope airport from LA's Union Station. Absolute nightmare.
Was taking the metro into Union Station only to discover the orange line to bob hope wasn't running or was delayed or something (Google maps wouldn't tell me why but it refused to route to it).
Lucky me! Amtrak stops at Bob Hope, but my metro link train was delayed and I missed the Amtrak. Lucky me again! Amtrak is delayed too, I catch it just in time, but have to buy a ticket for a later train because the Amtrak app doesn't let you buy tickets for trains that have ostensibly departed already (even if they haven't and you're staring right at it). Then I wait on the Amtrak train for 2 hours just for it to get going.
LA Public Transit is a nightmare. LA needs to do better.
Don't get me started on deciding the entire metro system should be at grade so cars and trains are constantly fighting each other and tons of high value real estate is used up by train right of way that could've been buried...
...to 'garthbartin'...I see, , you are obviously not familiar with the history of the L.A. basin. The Metro system did not 'decide' to put its' tracks at grade level. Those railroad tracks were laid down in uninhabited/sparsely inhabited farm & forest country well over a hundred years ago by the mainline freight railroads (Southern Pacific. Santa Fe.), long before the word "commuter train" was invented. Metro is running their trains on 'legacy' rail infrastructure. It would be absurdly expensive and unnecessary to build underground tunnels for a system as vast as Metro, when the rails on the surface are already there.
As someone who lives car-free on the border of Redondo Beach/Torrance, I appreciate you mapping out my options, thank you. I'll pass on the Cheesecake Factory, though!
Isn't the Green line supposed to be extended to the Torrance transit center?
@@mrxman581 Yeah but it's not supposed to be completed until 2030! And if I'm still living in Torrance at that time then something has gone terribly, terribly wrong!
I think Brightline should’ve had LA’s station be at Union Station. For most people in the LA basin, if we have to drive all the way to Rancho Cucamonga we might as well keep driving all the way to Las Vegas.
Exactly. And those of us in San Diego could have taken the Pacific Surfliner directly into Union Station and make the connection from there.
That's a connection that will happen in time. In the meantime, MetroLink will be bolstered.
True, but there is also a massive population of young people living in the Inland Empire and SGV, both are very well served by an RC terminus. So it will still be great for millions of people, just perhaps not those living eg on the West Side.
That was the plan. The original plan included a connection using the High Desert Corridor (mentioned in the video), a combo light rail/passenger rail corridor. Once the Cal HSR Project completed the Palmdale-Union Station link, Brightline planned its trains to run to Union Station. It would also have allowed trains from Northern California to bypass LA to reach Vegas. Unfortunately, the HDC was cancelled. There are long-term plans to dual track and electrify the San Bernardino line in the I-10 median but I doubt it will happen in my lifetime (assuming it takes 20 years to happen).
Exactly!
Thank you for mentioning that the end point will be in Rancho Cucamunga. Until it is linked to LA Union Station, I don’t see myself using it. From where I live, the Brightline station would already be a 45+ minute drive depending on traffic, and if I’m already in my car I might as well just drive the rest of the way to Vegas.
I’ve also flown to and from Vegas and LAX multiple times. While it’s nice to not have to sit in a car for an extended period of time, It was only about 30 minutes quicker when all was said and done. Getting to the airport, waiting for departure (assuming there’s no delays), arriving, and figuring out transit once you get there.
Just FYI, for the Canoga Park example, I think the Van Nuys FlyAway to LAX deserves a call out. It's literally one of the only public transportation options in LA that actually works the way it is supposed to work, and it's only a 20 to 30 minute drive from The Cheesecake Factory in Canoga Park.
The Van Nuys FlyAway to LAX isn't going to save any time heading south on the 405's using the carpool lane on a Friday at 5pm. All lanes turn into a parking lot at Santa Monica Blvd through at least 90 if not the 105 during Friday rush hour. It just makes more sense driving to Burbank's Bob Hope airport than going over the hill that time of day.
Note that driving from L.A. to L.V. at 8pm on a Sunday will take much less time than taking the same trip at 5pm on a Friday. The Interstate 15 freeway becomes a parking lot.
I'm newer to this channel and I honestly can't tell if you actually love Cheesecake Factory or if this is a long running bit that I wasn't here for the inception of, either way I am here for it.
His family founded Cheesecake Factory. This entire channel is funded by big torte.
It is something of a long-running bit, since Cheesecake Factory often appears on stroads, suburban malls, and other car-centric places that the channel highlights.
@@marcdavies2866correction: big cheese runs big torte and every other dairy based concept. This channel is the liberal urbanist video essay outlet of big cheese
ALRIGHTY Buckle in get A soda it's gonna get Boring af: Cheesecake factory is a Location of Commercial in an upper mid tear price.. SO IF YOU USE the fast amount of locations as Pin points in a network for the use of Passenger trips.. Is about the time it takes
@@Trenz0 oh man this goes deeper than I could've ever imagined..
Looks like they’re starting construction on the Victorville section already. I live in the area and they’ve been working on an expansion of that section of freeway for a while now.
At Long Beach Airport, you can just show up and get on your plane. The TSA line is
LGB is usually more expensive no? Plus there's desperate lack of transit options there. A C/K line extension that routes by the airport (and by extension LBCC) toward CSULB would be great in however many years.
Would be interested to see if Phoenix could be connected to LA, Vegas, or both. It would be a great commuter line and would bring a southwest passenger train revolution.
lol, no, but interstate 11 might be extended to finally connect Phoenix to LV via freeway
Southern California has eight commercial airports that offer service to and from Las Vegas: San Bernardino International, San Diego International, Ontario International, Palm Springs International, John Wayne (Orange County), Long Beach, Hollywood-Burbank, and Los Angeles International.
Most reflective of the refined taste of the type of person who would head to Vegas on a Friday evening. Love it.
People calling for the terminus to be Union Station dont realize that Union Station capacity is already near max and the California HSR is already planned to stop there (if that section ever gets built). Also part of the reason transit in the LA area sucks is that right now everything only goes to Union Station.
The Rancho Cucamonga terminus is being planned for major expansion which includes lines to Ontario Airport and other areas in the Inland Empire. Basically they want Rancho station to be a secondary hub outside of Union Station.
It should be noted, though, that Union Station gets rebuilt into a through station which increases capacity by providing an alternative exit. On top of that, not all trains have to terminate at Union Station either since San Bernardino also is a viable terminus for the Inland Empire.
I live in Riverside. Downtown Riverside really needed to be the southern terminus as opposed to Rancho Cucamonga.
No, the real terminus should've been union station in dtla
As someone who's lived all over OC, that would make way more sense than Rancho Cucamonga. Somewhere in LA would make the most sense though lol. Or hell, even Anaheim or Pasadena if the concern is avoiding the mountains
The 15 doesn't go through Riverside, so acquiring ROW would have been a disaster. Plus, Rancho is better connected/closer to LA since it has the 10, the 60, and the 210.
Rancho wont be the terminous for long. The idea is that Rancho is just going to be the first stop. From there they will build HSR lines west to LA with stops in Pasadena and San Dimas, East to Redlands, Beaumont, and finally Palm Springs, and South along the 15 with stops in Riverside, Temecula, and ending in San Diego. It'll take 20-30 years, but just imagine.
Another great video Citynerd!
As a Vegas resident I am literally beyond excited for this. I'm from the midwest not LA i'm just excited to use it to vacation in LA more often and go out there to work occasionally. Beyond excited!
One of my concerns is giving prime right of way to a private company, in a place we could build our own public project.
me as well, it's great now, but we know damn well that there will never be any nationalization efforts in the US
Me too, but honestly this is the only way something is going to get built.
As someone who regularly travels from Redondo to Vegas to visit family, this is directly relevant to my interests. Unfortunately getting from here to Cucamonga is more daunting than getting from Cucamonga to Vegas. 😵💫
Exactly. That's the worst part of getting to Vegas.
That is why they need to get the HSR trains to Union station. Then you could drive or Uber to the south bay transit center and take the silver BRT line to Union station or the G line.
the southern california sprawl is still hard to comprehend in my northeastern mind. i’ve been to LA twice but i took the bus mostly and uber sometimes so the highway traffic baffles me. i take metronorth, lirr, or the subway every day of the week and i don’t think i could live without my trains
I feel like this was more driving vs flying vs driving + rail. I lived in DC for 2/3 of my life, so I get how bad traffic can be, but 2.5 hours to drive 45 miles is just insane. I really hope Brightline plans to extend the line into downtown LA or LA fixes their transit so that this can actually be feasible and remove some air traffic as well.
believe it or not my sisters place in Redondo to Rancho Cucamonga during evening rush hour traffic is 3+ hours regardless of which route you take. It is all stop and go traffic on freeways that are 6+ lanes wide in each direction. 7+ hours to get from her place to Vegas. Been there, done that and it is no fun.
"...2.5 hours to drive 45 miles is just insane."
Welcome to Los Angeles. Doing insane for more than 125 years.
@@mjohnson9563why not just wait out the traffic? I think the bright line will be fantastic
Most car drivers from LA to LV would prefer high speed train over driving. 2hrs of not needing to focus on driving in CA is a gift. The biggest bottleneck I see here is to fix city transport to get to the rail station. That's very easy to fix. Bright line could start their own city transport system to pair with the trains.
Really REALLY hoping if this is successful LA starts building easier transit to get to rancho but heavy doubt
Yeah it's really disappointing that they aren't heavily considering electrifying the San Bernardino line. At least Metrolink has the SCORE program, thought. This may improve headways by 2028. A San Bernardino line connection to LAUS would be so much better than having to route through Palmdale imo.
Hell yes. Looking forward to this!
"Did you know there is a Cajon Pass railfanning location?"
I've never heard it called that, but my dad (who's a real foamer) took us there frequently during my childhood. The earliest trip I remember is 1979, but I probably went earlier.
So yeah, I knew.
2:14 Brightline Florida (for anyone who was paying attention closely to the project) was expecting to open in early 2022 not late 2023. It actually opened even later than I expected.
Doesn’t it mostly use existing freight ROW too? At least the Miami portion. Don’t think the situations are all that comparable
I'd definitely take the train over a flight or driving. That's true generally, but certainly in relatively short trips like this.
I worked on this project starting back in 2005! Interesting that it is still under consideration.
It isn’t. They haven’t broke ground yet😂
@@mPa493 yes, but the fact that it is still alive...I can't even count how many projects I worked on that never made it to construction.
Ive been telling all my friends about this project thank you for covering it. Cant wait to be sipping an old fashioned screaming 180mph across the mohave desert unreal
this is actually very exciting stuff, Rancho Cucamonga is still so much better than Victorville and I wouldn't be surprised if Brightline eventually plans to further continue the line to more parts of the LA metro.
I would be...building anything in California is a real PITA. I know a guy that wanted to build a custom home, so bought a house and demolished it except for the front façade (it had to be braced just so that it wouldn't blow over in the wind) just so that it could be called a "remodel" rather than a "new construction" so he could avoid all the rigmarole that goes with building in California. There's a reason why the original plan for the DesertXpress was to only build into Victorville. I don't blame Brightline for only going as far as Rancho Cucamonga.
Of course I will try it. I’ve flown many times, and driven many times. I need to see what this experience is like.
Very cool video . I just did the Vegas to Anaheim trip back n forth 3 hrs 56 mins to LA then return was 5hrs + so much traffic to get out of LA
Going to need really good security at the station parking lot- it will be a fat target for auto break ins. Also, this can work for people going to the strip but will leave you with only expensive transportation options is you are going to a different part of LV.
I strongly avoid Vegas but more high speed rail in LA (or the US in general) is something I’m all about.
Hi, this was a very interesting video! One thing that I have always wondered is why the LA rail options are so slow? I've thought of a bunch of options:
(a) network design is poor needing many transfers
(b) having low frequencies
(c) trains are too slow physically (top speed or acceleration)
(d) too many stops
It takes me 2 hours to get to LAX via transit from Pasadena (car is 45 min to 1.5 hr), and I don't think it will get improved when the automated people mover and K line finish construction. I want to ask my representatives to improve this, but I don't know what to ask for!
It should be faster since the Regional Connector opened. However, once the LAX People Mover opens it will improve again.
Though taking the A line to Union Station and then taking the Flyaway bus to LAX is relatively quick. I would think that would be less than 2 hours if you time it right.
@@mrxman581 Assuming starting at Memorial Park > Union Station (24 mins A Line), and then Union Station > LAX on the Flyaway (~35 minutes) plus some time to transfer in Union, it should really only take a little more than an hour.
Love your work
Thanks for pointing people to the advocacy group so we can get better rail across the US!
For Union Station service, in addition to electrification you'd also need to double track the section in the I-10 median, which would require getting rid of lanes. While I'm sure nobody on this channel would mind that, it would be difficult from a political perspective.
I moved to Las Vegas in 1960 when I was 5 years old. One of the selling point our parents told us kids (who didn’t want to move there) was “they are putting in high speed trains to California and you can ride them to see your Grandma in Anaheim “
Every couple years someone reinvents the idea, but alas, I’m still waiting.
I did ride the old regular trains there a couple times and even as a kid is was torture.
Your dry sarcastic humor is absolute gold. I love this channel lol
4:53 amazing approach 😂😂 Enjoyed this one, let's hope the timeline holds.
Love the content, but wouldn’t it have been better to set the depart estimates for Friday 5pm instead of Sunday 5pm?
This entire video is based around a departure time of 5pm Friday March 1st 2024. Not sure why you thought he was looking at a Sunday
@@coreysnider5708 Check out time stamps 8:08, 9:19, 11:03 for some examples and note the Depart at date. I think Tue was also used for transport in LV 7:20
I would assume at some point it will have a connection at Union Station and Anaheim.
This has been on my mind since 1997. A drive home from Vegas to Orange County back then could be 7 hours on a Sunday evening!!!
Thank you much for the Rail Passengers Association Link! Now I know what gift to get some of my family members
Any train is better than no train, don't @ me
Huh it's almost like a train is only as good as where the station is
I am absolutely looking forwards to making trips on this train. I live in the inland empire, and am in vegas a few times a year.
This is really smart !
I feel like a hsr station at that location is actually really good, as long as there eventually are other stations elsewhere. An extension along the commuter train medium to Union Station, and some sort of more expensive later extension to Union Station, as well as some extension southward to Anaheim, could end up as an amazing service, as well as an extension from Victorville to Santa Clarita. If that is the eventual plan, then I have no qualms with opening up the train asap with only one station, the more subpar one but still with feasible service. The same cannot be said for California HSR. If they had instead focused on the LA-Anaheim and San Diego segments, California HSR would have probably opened a feasible segment faster and with more attractive service, and then expand from there.
So, if Brightline eventually extends to other stations in LA, the service backbone is looking good
I live in Rancho so that's super convenient for me, as for everyone else.... good luck!
I would definitely take the LA to Vegas high speed train when it launches. People think that when they drive to Vegas that it is always like 3 AM conditions where there is no traffic.
So it sounds like it’s going to be a total waste of money and time since Rancho is not anywhere near the center of town, traffic is terrible and public transportation is worse than a Ukrainian city that’s actively being bombed. What’s hilarious to me is that I live in Seattle and can be from here to Vegas in like 3.5 hours.
Being near the "center of town" doesn't mean very much in Los Angeles.
This comment will never make the Top 10, but the algorithm will still care. 😃
I am so excited for projected California train projects. Finished high speed rail, metro expansion and bright line west, all in 4-5 years (projected). the la area could be completely transformed by 2030, and that's awesome
I didn't know Brightline was on-line in Florida. I live in North Carolina. Thanks for telling us about the Rail Passengers Association.
Thoughts on super-express metro lines from each sub region of LA, basically a $5-10 train from say culver almost direct to cucamonga? and repeat for the others locations.
Thank you for saying raises the question and not begs the question
Absolutely, will ride it!👍
Regarding driving time: driving back from Vegas on Sunday is never less than 4-5 hours. If there's an accident, you could easily be parked there for several hours without moving an inch.
thanks for the nice video
I have to get ready for work, and there’s a new citynerd video. That shouldn’t be longer than 10 min…holy shit!
As someone who drives from San Francisco to Los Angeles once a year, hey I can't wait until 2040 or whenever HSR gets built, I'm surprised the time to go to Vegas from LA is about the same from SF to LA, although traffic can push that well beyond.
Very interesting video as usual. I have an idea for another one, although I'm not exactly sure the correct way to approach it. I've been thinking about sleeper trains a lot recently as they are becoming more relevant in Europe, which is where I live. You could do a top 10 list of the best sleeper train routes perhaps, but what I'm really curious about is what role sleeper trains could play in the US. I used to live in Montana which has the Empire Builder for slow connections to the east and west, including a not-terrible sleeper train option from northern Montana to Seattle. A lot of your channel focuses rightly upon city pairs with high gravity scores and the viability of having proper high-speed routes there. But what about more sparsely populated areas in the US (or in Europe for that matter) and what can be done to improve the service in these areas? Do you think Amtrak should simply increase frequency across the network or will the sparsely populated areas of the US forever be forgotten by rail service, whether proper high-speed or low? Is there still utility in providing slow trains all across the US?