In the Prog Seat: Criminally Underrated, Misunderstood, Or Do These Albums Just Plain Suck? (Part 1)
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- Опубликовано: 9 май 2022
- Join the In the Prog Seat crew for a discussion of some questionable albums from prog heavyweights that have mixed opinions amongst the fans and critics. This is Part 1 of a 2 Part series.
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*You guys are all SO incredibly knowledgeable about prog and Fusion (and so much more!) which is why it always surprises me that no one ever mentions Crack The Sky. I wonder why that is. Cheers. Rock on!* 😊
Islands was my first experience with King Crimson. I'd never heard anything of them before. I just heard of the context to other bands from this time. (Genesis, Pink Floyd, Yes, ELP...) - When I was 20, I went to the record store and asked the Lady behind the information, which one were to prefer. She took the phone and called a college to ask him. Subsequently she told me: "Islands". What a strange recommendation. - At my first listening to this record, I was absolutly enraptured. This was the right music for me. Weeks later, I had own all 70s Crimson albums. I love all these diffences in this band. Islands is not my favourite KC, but it is a very special album for me!
Agree about King Crimson Lizard. Misunderstood. I find myself going back to it frequently.
So tired of the trite, negative comments about 80s era rush. They didn’t sell out, they didn’t have an A&R guy pushing them towards a more commercial sound. They changed because that’s what progressive musicians do.
I love "Caress of Steel." It's a classic masterpiece.
I love Islands and over the years more and more.
Islands - I love it. I like it better than Lizard - it’s less dense and more lyrical, but still with some jazziness. I prefer Boz’s vocals to Gordon Haskell’s (though Boz went too far over the top on “impaled on nails of ice”). I adore the title track. I agree that recent performances of these songs are masterful, and I’m very glad I got to see them play “Islands” live in 2019.
Islands is easily one of the best Crimson albums! Criminally underrated!
Love "Islands" the next 4-5 were better but it's a great rebound from Lizard which I cannot get along with
Also my favorite
Indeed, the title track is particularly gorgeous.
Also my favorite too and if you get the sailor’s tales box set you’re definitely will appreciate this masterpiece better
Agree!
Seeing as @Joe Grinvalsky was kind enough to ask my thoughts on this show's 4 albums that the internet stole the opportunity for me to talk about, here are the notes I wrote out for the show (excuse the block capitals - it's written like that to help my ageing eyes at midnight, and I can't be bothered rewriting it all!).
KING CRIMSON - ISLANDS (1971)
I’VE ALWAYS VIEWED ‘ISLANDS’ AS FRIPP CHALLENGING HIS BAND’S FANS TO STAY THE COURSE.
THE TRUTH IS THAT I PROBABLY COULDN’T. I DREAD TO THINK HOW LONG, PRIOR TO THIS WEEK, IT’S BEEN SINCE I LAST LISTENED TO THIS ALBUM AND HAVE TO ADMIT THAT TWICE IN QUICK SUCCESSION IN RECENT DAYS IS MORE THAN I REALLY NEEDED.
BOZ BURRELL IS, I THINK, QUITE DECENT ON VOCALS AND THERE ARE MOMENTS ON “THE LETTERS”, “LADIES OF THE ROAD” AND THE TITLE TRACK THAT I CAN GET INVOLVED WITH.
HOWEVER, THERE’S NOT ENOUGH ACTUAL MEAT ON THE BONES TO ME TO GET ALL THAT EXCITED BY THE WHOLE EXPERIENCE AS AN ALBUM FROM START TO FINISH. I ACTUALLY THINK IT’S A REMARKABLY UNEVENTFUL AND NON-ENGAGING EXPERIENCE - AND HAVE NEVER QUITE BEEN ABLE TO SHAKE OFF THE IMPRESSION THAT THAT WAS THE INTENTION ALL ALONG.
I’D SAY THAT THE WAY THE ALBUM ENDS SUMS IT UP PERFECTLY - YOU WAIT AFTER THE MAIN EVENT THROUGH A MINUTES' SILENCE TO BASICALLY THEN HEAR A MINUTE OR SO OF AN ORCHESTRA TUNING UP, SOME VOICES AND THE ODD BEEP AND THEN JUST AS THEY ARE COUNTED IN, IT ENDS - AND YOU ARE LEFT THINKING… WE WAITED FOR THAT? THAT TO ME IS ‘ISLANDS’ IN A NUTSHELL.
HAVING SAID ALL THAT, I’D SAY THAT ISLANDS IS MORE OF A PROG ALBUM THAN QUITE A FEW OF THE OTHERS WE’RE DISCUSSING UNDER THIS THEME AND YET, IT’S PROBABLY THE ONE ACROSS THE EIGHT WE’LL DISCUSS THAT I WANT TO LISTEN TO LEAST.
DOES IT DESERVE THE HARD TIME IT RECEIVES? IT’S A RESOUNDING YES FROM ME.
YES - TORMATO (1978)
I’D SAY THE BIGGEST STUMBLING BLOCK FOR TORMATO IS WHERE IT FALLS IN THE BAND’S CATALOGUE. ‘RELAYER’ INTO ‘GOING FOR THE ONE’ IS A STUPIDLY HIGH BAR TO TRY AND REACH AGAIN.
AND TORMATO CAN’T QUITE DO IT AND NEITHER DOES IT HAVE THE STANDOUT MOMENTS THAT THOSE ALBUMS HAVE.
IT’S THEN ALSO VIEWED - PROBABLY CORRECTLY - AS ONE OF THE CATALYSTS FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE'S FAVOURITE LINE-UP OF THE BAND TO START FRACTURING AGAIN.
THEN ‘DRAMA’ FOLLOWS IT AND BLOWS IT AWAY - SO THIS ALBUM IS ALWAYS GOING TO GET LOST IN THE SHUFFLE IN THAT SENSE.
IT IS ALSO A STRANGE BREW IN TERMS OF WHAT YES PUT OUT - “RELEASE, RELEASE” FOR EXAMPLE IS JUST ABOUT YES DOES STATUS QUO WITH THAT DA-DA-DA-DANA-DA-DA-DANA OPENING.
WHEREAS “CIRCUS OF HEAVEN” SOUNDS LIKE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER PLACED ON A JON ANDERSON SOLO ALBUM - OR IN THE BIN.
HOWEVER, “DON’T KILL THE WHALE”, WHILE MAYBE FEELING WAY TOO LITERAL WITH THE BENEFIT OF HINDSIGHT, IS A CRACKING ACCESSIBLE PIECE OF YES PROG. I REALLY LIKE “FUTURE TIMES”, WHICH IS A FIERY OPENER AND I ENJOY THE MELANCHOLY AND DARING “ONWARD” WITH ITS BEAUTIFUL ORCHESTRATION.
THE PROBLEM WITH TORMATO, FOR ME, ISN’T SO MUCH TORMATO - AND ITS AWFUL NAME AND STUPID ALBUM COVER - IT’S THAT WHEN HELD UP AGAINST MOST OF THE REST OF YES’S DISCOGRAPHY FROM THE DEBUT TO DRAMA, IT COMES OFF SECOND BEST NEARLY EVERY TIME - ALTHOUGH IT’S ARGUABLY BETTER THAN NEARLY EVERYTHING THAT’S FOLLOWED.
DOES IT DESERVE THE REPUTATION IT HAS EARNED? NOT FOR ME, NO. I LIKED IT WHEN I FIRST HEARD IT AND STILL DO.
GENTLE GIANT - CIVILIAN (1980)
NOT SURE WHY, BUT I DON’T ACTUALLY OWN A PHYSICAL COPY OF CIVILIAN, BUT I’LL BE PUTTING THAT RIGHT WHEN IT’S REISSUED SOON.
LIKE SO MANY 80S ERA PROG ALBUMS, THIS IS VERY MUCH A CHILD OF ITS TIME - BUT IN MANY WAYS GENTLE GIANT WERE MAYBE AHEAD OF THE CURVE IN THAT SENSE.
YES MADE THE POP-PROG LEAP IN ’83, FOR ME GENESIS DIDN’T GO ALL IN UNTIL 1981 ON ABACAB, WITH RUSH IT WAS ’82, ALTHOUGH WITH JETHRO TULL IT WAS PROBABLY 1980 AS WELL.
“CONVENIENCE” HITS LIKE SAGA DANCING WITH CHART ERA GENESIS AND LISTENING TO THIS ALBUM AGAIN I’M STRUCK BY HOW MUCH OF IT SEEMS TO SET THE TEMPLATE FOR WHAT GENESIS WOULD MAKE MILLIONS WITH DURING THE 80S.
LONG GONE ARE THE FABULOUS ARRANGEMENTS AND EASY SOUNDING BUT SUPER DIFFICULT TECHNICALITY, INSTEAD “ALL THROUGH THE NIGHT” SOUNDS LIKE SOLO PHIL COLLINS SIDLING UP TO DIRE STRAITS - IT’S NOT BAD, BUT IT’S NOT WHAT I EVER REALLY WANTED FROM GENTLE GIANT.
FOR ME, THE SLOWER SONGS LIKE “SHADOWS ON THE STREETS”, WHICH IS ALMOST LIKE SUPERTRAMP IN PLACES AND “INSIDE OUT”, REALLY DON’T WORK.
BUT BY 80S STANDARDS “NUMBER ONE” SHOULD HAVE LIVED UP TO ITS NAME AND BEEN A HUGE HIT. IT’S BIG, BOLD, CATCHY AND BARELY PROG AT ALL!
ALTHOUGH “UNDERGROUND” DOES ALOMST MANAGE TO STRADDLE GENTLE GIANT OF OLD TO THE SOUND THEY WERE LOOKING FOR HERE.
DOES CIVILIAN DESERVE THE ROUGH TIME IT GETS? I’D HAVE TO SAY THAT YES, IT PROBABLY DOES, BUT I LIKE IT A LOT
NONETHELESS!
RUSH - CARESS OF STEEL (1975)
AGAIN THE ISSUE HERE IS THAT CARESS OF STEEL ISN’T ‘FLY BY NIGHT’ AND NOR IS IT ‘2112’ - IT’S THE TRANSITION BETWEEN THE TWO, CLEARING THE PATH AND GETTING EVERYONE READY FOR THE PROG EXPLOSION THAT WAS TO FOLLOW.
I THINK IT DOES IT BRILLIANTLY WELL AND I HAVE ZERO PROBLEMS WITH THIS ALBUM.
“BASTILLE DAY’ IS A CLASSIC ENERGETIC RUSH ROMP, “I THINK I’M GOING BALD” IS WEIGHED DOWN BY SILLY LYRICS, BUT MUSICALLY - AND ESPECIALLY IN THE GUITAR DEPARTMENT - IS EXCELLENT.
“LAKESIDE PARK” IS A CLEVER CHANGE OF PACE, WHILE THE TWO LENGTHY TRACKS - “THE NECROMANCER”, AND “THE FOUNTAIN OF LAMNETH”, WHILE NOT NECESSARILY UP THERE WITH THE BAND’S BEST WORK, DO COME TOGETHER REALLY WELL AND REMAIN VERY LISTENABLE RIGHT UP TO TODAY.
BY THE STANDARDS THAT RUSH SET, CARESS OF STELL IS A GOOD ALBUM, NOT A GREAT ALBUM BUT FOR ME THERE’S NO QUESTION THAT IT GETS TREATED UNFAIRLY.
DOES THIS ALBUM DESERVE THE ROUGH TREATMENT IT GETS? NO, NOT FOR ME, NOT AT ALL.
Bravo! I agree with most of your notes, not all of it; but your reasoning is always fair. As Pete likes to say "we all hear things differently...". Thank you for sharing. Always a treat. I appreciate the "screaming", for my bad eyes as well. Who is the cable provider in Perth? If it is BT, that would explain some of it... 😁
Thanks for going through the trouble of posting all that! Good to know your thoughts on these albums.
We missed you! Nice analysis
@@joegrinvalsky7222 Thanks everyone! Yes, Joe it'll be Outreach, so BT, which explains a lot.
I was so frustrated when I got kicked out of the show Eric. I knew it was going to be a good one, but it was a great one and you, sir, were on TOP FORM! Hopefully I'm glitch free for part two next week.
Thanks Steven! I appreciate you posting that for us. I am going to imagine you saying this on the show during each round 😁
Civilian was this high schooler’s (at the time) introduction to GG, made me a fan and want to dig into their catalogue. Great musicianship, catchy tunes, and meaningful, no mention that this album had a theme - the way modernity strips away individual identity.
Great show loved the Stephen Reid cameo!
These collaborative videos are, to me, the "tales of topographic oceans" of youtube content. aka i LOVE it. thank you! Each of the contributors adds something significant.
Great topic and great show. The range of insight and opinions is always fascinating and gives me an impetus to revisit a lot of these records and see them in a new light. I will say I've found Islands to be a tough listen but I feel like every time I spin it it grows on me a little more.
Tormato thin and messy sound is due some lack of communication and information after they changed the audio engineers in the middle of the recordings.
Eddy Offord usually incorporated Dolby A, a type of Dolby noise-reduction system, in his production work, but the original tapes didn't' have any sign on the sheets that Dolby A was used. The engineers who replaced Offord not have known that the Dolby reduction had in fact been used and they mixed all the work without decoding it. So, aparently, all the material before overdubs recorded with Dolby A was mixed with the material recorded after, but without decoding Dolby A.
Dolby A:
The input signal is split into frequency bands by four filters with 12 dB per octave slopes, with cutoff frequencies (3 dB down points) as follows: low-pass at 80 Hz; band-pass from 80 Hz to 3 kHz; a high-pass from 3 kHz; and another high-pass at 9 kHz. (The stacking of contributions from the two high-pass bands allows greater noise reduction in the upper frequencies.) The compander circuit has a threshold of −40 dB, with a ratio of 2:1 for a compression/expansion of 10 dB.
Correct matching of the compression and expansion processes is important. The calibration of the expansion (decoding) unit for magnetic tape uses a flux level of 185 nWb/m, which is the level used on industry calibration tapes such as those from Ampex; this is set to 0 VU on the tape recorder playback and to Dolby Level on the noise reduction unit. In the record (compression or encoding) mode, a characteristic tone (Dolby Tone) generated inside the noise reduction unit is set to 0 VU on the tape recorder and to 185 nWb/m on the tape.
Yes... an audio engineer discovered the Dolby A issue and said the tapes sounded amazing after applying the correction. Wonder if "Tormato" will be re-released with this issue corrected.
Is there a chance this is deflection for the people who simply couldn't and still can't believe they made such a boring, buzz kill of a record? IT WAS THE DOLBY TRANSFER DAMN IT! (it does a have a strange production value, but it's the material that's the issue.. Relayer sounds like it was recorded to a cassette that sat in the sun and it kicks ass)
Criminally Underrated:
Rush- Power Windows to Counterparts
Genesis- A Trick of the Tail, Wind and Wuthering, …And Then There Were Three and Duke
Yes- Tormato and Drama
Pink Floyd- Atom Heart Mother, A Momentary Lapse of Reason, and The Division Bell
ELP- Love Beach
Good choices, but we'll have to agree to differ on Love Beach & Tormato :) Drama was massively underrated. It's way better than it was given credit for at the time. Everyone got butthurt over the Buggles connection & didn't give it a fair hearing
With you on the Genesis picks, W&W, TOTT and TTWT There my interest in Genesis ended, so wouldn’t include Duke.
Right there with Pete on Caress of Steel.
Though by far my favorite piece is Fountain of Lamneth.
There are just so many great melody lines vocally and from each instrument.
Cask of 43 is one of my all time favorite musical pieces from any of their albums.
i like Islands. I got it as a cassette very cheap in charity shop UK. I like the way it can be aggressive on some tracks and gentle on others. There is even a track that's classical
I tried Civilian and was a bit disappointed by it. Too commercial sounding On it's own it's O.K. compared to earlier albums it's a let down.
Tormato for me is a classic yes album. Islands is a favorite of mine.
Those are the two discussed here that I enjoy. I can do without the Rush and GG.
Tormato is one of my favourite Yes albums, Steve Howe has always said that one of the issues with the sound was that the frequencies of the guitar and Wakeman's new keyboard toy were too similar - I like the Dolby A explanation below as well.
Luis made a great point regarding our expectations of what we want an album to sound like - I bought Tormato when it came out, didnt have any expectation of it apart from knowing it was the new Yes album. In regards to the sound I had thought that Going for The One sounded a bit cold and icy, whereas this one seemed to be a bit warmer and fizzy. Suffice to say I have probably listened to it as much as any other Yes album I have, and I loved it then and still love it now, there are no songs on it that I dislike and On the Silent Wings of Freedom is one of my all time favourite Yes songs. I wonder if it were to be remixed whether I'd like that as much as the original though?
Similar thing for Caress of Steel, I actually bought it before I got 2112, on the basis that it has one of my favourite Rush songs on it in Bastille Day. Like Tormato there's nothing on it I dislike and I'll go back to it regularly.
Islands, like Anthony I didnt get this one until the 2010 remix, although I had heard Sailor's Tale and Ladies of the Road on Crimson's Frame by Frame box set. I like the album, its not their greatest but still listenable. I agree that its a transitionary album as I can hear elements of what went before and what came after peppered throughout. Mel Collins sax work is just great and Fripp plays some fantastic solos, not so sure about SInfield's lyrics though.
Civilian - I also came late to the Giant party , the first thing I had by them was the Edge of Twilight compilation in 1996, and to be honest at first I didnt really get it. Many listens later though and now I do and I love it. There were no tracks from Civilian, which I dont own but I have streamed it a number of times, and due to the presence front and centre of Gary Green's guitar it rocks pretty hard, though I felt it tailed off at and after I am a Camera.
I love Islands. It is high up on my KC list. For me it is a great summer album. Especially the title track is kind of a precursor to a lot of later stuff, like Mark Hollis.
I love Island ..!!! one of the first K.C albums I had , it is a very special album from "that time" I still listen to it this day
glad they made it ... thanks for this show very nice to hear
Hi Pete, really enjoy your prog discussion shows. Having come of age musically in the late 60's-early 70's, the legends of that era shaped what I heard as possibilities for what rock music could do, and I have noticed a common thread in these discussions that inevitably reference the prominent bands that set the bar of that golden era. That got me to researching and compiling from my own collection the bands and individuals of that era to find what they've released in a more modern context, let's say, post 1997. The result was "Modern Prog from Prog-rock Legends" Vol. 1. Here is the track listing:
1. Big Big Train - "Alive" from 2019's "Grand Tour" - I know you are a fan and these guys are not from that golden era, but Jesus Christ, do they get it, and sets the tone for this compilation perfectly.
2. Yes - "To the Moment" from Oliver Wakeman's 2019's compilation "From a Page" collecting the songs from those sessions that are sadly, the last gasps of greatness from Yes while Squier was still with them. This full version of the song should have put Yes back on the map in a BIG way.
3. PFM - "The Lesson" from 2017's "Emotional Tattoos" - a re-constituted band with original bassist Patrick Djivas and drummer Franz DiCioccio taking the front man/drummer role a'la Phil Collins
4. David Cross Band - "Troppo" from 1999's "Exiles" featuring Wetton, Fripp, and Peter Hammill. As close to a classic King Crimson re-union of the Wetton/ Bruford/Cross years as you can get. Fripp and Hammill's performances on this and "Tonk" are jaw-droppingly good and always left me wondering why Peter Hammill, the original voice of doom, was never invited to front KC - a match made in heaven if ever there was............a great album from start to finish including a stunning update of the song "Exiles" w/ Wetton and another with Wetton w/lyrics from Pete Sinfield.
5. Nad Sylvan - "The Quartermaster" from 2017's "The Bride Said No". A brilliant album from Steve Hackett's touring singer, another guy who truly gets it. Masterful blend of old and new prog sensibilities w/guest players S. Hackett, Tony Levin, Doane Perry (ex-Tull), Nick D'Vigilio (Big Big Train), Roine Stolt
6. Genesis - "The Dividing Line" from 1997's "Calling All Stations" - Sadly overlooked last gasp from them. A killer song among several that suggested they may have wanted to get back to more interesting music after the P.C. hit parade.
7. Jethro Tull - "Mrs. Tibbets" from "The Zealot Gene" 2022 - Already reviewed on SOT, a fine return to classic Tull songwriting and arranging
8. Cousins and Conrad - "The Call to Action" from 2005's "High Seas" - devastatingly passionate Dave Cousins song from this collaboration w/German guitarist Connie Conrad. Strawbs never really made the top tier of 70's prog bands, but when they were good, they were great, as this album attests. Another one sadly overlooked, the new Strawbs album "Settlement" (2021) continues a strong string of recent releases from them.
9. Qango - "All Along the Watchtower" from "Live in the 'Hood" (2000) - Ad-hoc band w/J. Wetton, C. Palmer, guitarist Dave Kilminster, and keys man John Young.
Powerful and hypnotic acoustic arrangement like never heard before. Performance also includes classic ELP and a coupla' killer renditions of 1st album Asia songs w/ an uncredited Keith Emerson who was in the audience on "Fanfare"
10. John Hackett/Nick Fletcher Band - "Beyond the Stars", title track from 2018 - Classic prog song from someone who was there back when, stepping out on his own with a fine release throughout. Reminiscent and fresh all at once.
11. PFM - "Kindred Souls" from "I Dream of Electric Sheep" (2021) - Another great one from a truly great modern prog band that harks back to their own golden era, on a song featuring Ian Anderson and Steve Hackett.
12. Keith Emerson Band w/Mark Bonilla - 10 1/2 min. excerpt from "The House of Ocean Born Mary"(2008) - Last but far from least, criminally overlooked album that is a return to the Emerson we all love best, how this missed remains a mystery. Possibly the best Emerson rock album since BSS.
Just about all of these can be found on YooToob. Hope you and your audience can find these examples of true modern "prog" from some of the most important figures of the genre, and have at least some faith restored. If I weren't so technically inept, would love to take part in some of your discussion shows on the subject. Here is a link to my own contribution/tribute to the genre: ruclips.net/video/Tgj0YA1XaLk/видео.html
ELP - What If?
Keith Emerson loved Argentinian composer Alberto Ginastera. Because of Emerson, I too discovered and fell in love with Ginastera. On their '97 world tour, Em...
www.youtube.com
I'm with Pete on Caress of Steel. Listening to Rush in the 70s The Necromancer was my favourite Rush song at one time. Over 12 minutes long and great guitar tone from Alex. "Silence shrouds the forest as the birds announce the dawn" still goes through my head 45 years later. The Fountain of Lamneth was always hit and miss. Some days I would would sit back and enjoy the whole side, other times I wouldn't have the patience.
I’m ok with Caress of Steel but the cover art is t-shirt worthy.
Regarding the applause on Release Release, that drum solo was recorded live.
I started my Prog journey in 1980 with Rush, Yes, and ELP. Caress was always a top 3 album of mine for the longest time, beating out Pictures and Waves and even Hemispheres. Still love it dearly, though Waves has replaced it as my all time favorite Rush album followed by Fly. I never minded Tormato really, though Drama definitely blows it away. As for Love Beach...😝
Can t understand the dislike for Islands. Transitional ? Certainly. Bad or boring? Geeez...The only one who got it right is Professor of Prog.
Caress of Steel has always been in my top 3 Rush albums, alongside A Farewell To Kings behind Hemispheres. 2112 is more cohesive and 2112 itself killer and dominates (though I adore Tears) yet somehow it just works more for me, I connect in some inexplicable way and I love Fountain of Lambeth especially. I also like that it’s a slightly longer Rush album at 45 mins and change I think. It was impossible to find on tape cassette back in the day so I too bought Archives and as COS was 45 mins it was all of Tape 2, and since hearing it for the first time, it has been top 3 Rush. That whole album run from FBN to MP is such a pantheon, a totally unique prog rock sound, we are lucky to have it. I’d recommend listening from FBN to MP one after the other, it’s a very rewarding immersive experience and all 3 are immense with Alex’s guitar work really standout because of what came later.
I wasn’t disappointed with Tormato when released apart from the Uber silly Circus of Heaven and album cover. On the Silent Wings of Freedom is top Yes and I like most of rest. Buying tape cassette and having basic stereo portable, the sound quality wasn’t an issue then but on my hifi now I get it. I’m 100% with Pete that it’s better than just about everything else they ever did after 90125, a tragedy really, but at least we have CTTE, Relayer and GFTO.
Your top three Rush albums are in my Top 5 (Farewell is my first, Caress and Hemispheres are fourth and fifth - almost interchangeable.) I think Caress of Steel's unique 'other/older-times-and-places' ambience, combined with its pastoral moments (e.g. "Lakeside Park," the Panacea section of "The Fountain of Lamneth", etc) sets it apart from 2112, and those same attributes have quite a bit to do with pushing it ahead of the latter album in my estimation. A Farewell to Kings shares a similar quality to Caress in the aforementioned 'ambience' category. I love 2112, but it doesn't quite make my Top 5. Oh, by the way, I love "Tears" as well, but I get the feeling that it isn't so popular among the panelists on our beloved In the Prog Seat. ;-)
Yes!! Exactly that, other/older times & places, and the pastoral moments, I hadn’t thought of it like that and couldn’t put it better!! Geddy’s voice has a different quality on Tears, I think he’s a great singer. Maybe a precursor to Losing It and Ghost of a Chance too?
@@maddysmith8846 Other than it being a ballad, my guess is that the different quality to Geddy's voice on "Tears" might have something to do with the fact that the song was entirely his, as opposed to the many pieces that had lyrics written by Peart. Perhaps it's a more personal tune, and that quality is what comes through? Not sure. Personally, I've always loved Geddy's voice, even though it is an acquired taste.
Great insights on this video. I am completely on board with Ken's view of things. His insights hit me exactly at the right spot. Ken - You're the man. I always thought like "If you wanna completely destroy a great prog tune just replace the hammond for a Yamaha DX7 and ditch the moog for a polyphonic synth". Just for the record, Islands is one of my favorite all time favorites. I love the free jazzy spirit of the album. It's amazing that it was recorded 3 months after Mahavishnu's IMF. There are some of KC's best tunes like Sailor's Tale and the Letters. Islands Suite is a masterpiece. It's exactly what I like about KC. It's always searching for the next phase.
Really interesting discussion as always gents.
For me:
"Civilian": never listened to it, but then the only Gentle Giant album I own is "In A Glass House" and I don't think I've listened to that in 30 years!
"Islands": Only played this one once, nothing on it has ever drawn me back to listen again.
"Tormato": by far my least liked Yes album of the 70's
"Caress of Steel": I love this one, definitely a transition album though.
Great discussion guys! I really enjoyed it. As for Gentle Giant, they were never really on my radar despite Saga giving them a nod on their Beginner's Guide to Throwing Shapes album. Perhaps I will dive into their music sometime. That said, I have a huge wish list of stuff that I have not bought in the past, say, 20 years. So, they might have to wait a while. We'll see.
Islands - It is a completely different take on KC but I love it. Islands is a very soothing song as if Formentera Lady. I love the Prelude as well. Letters into Sailors Tale also slays. I like everything in KC's catalog, but I am a fanboy.
Tormato - I think its pretty properly rated. It's a decent album with some very good moments and very bad moments.
Civilian - I am a huge GG fan but have never listened this album before and am waiting for the remaster. Based off of Pete's review, I cant wait to listen.
Caress of Steel - That is today's listening assignment.
Great show guys
I'm with you Pete. In Cleveland we thought that everybody loved Caress of Steel. This tour was my first Rush concert. They headlined with Ted Nugent (on his first Solo album fresh out of The Amboy Dukes) and Artful Dodger.I went to the next 7 album tours. WMMS played the hell out of this album.
I actually prefer Caress of Steel over 2112.
King Crimson's Islands will always be one of my Favorite King Crimson Albums of all time.
Oh yeah! It's right up there for me.
It's in my top 13 to be sure!
Good conversation, some good points made, enjoyed it.
Pete is spot on with CofS. I listen to it weeky.
I love Islands, but never got Tormato. I remember huge disappointment when it came out, although bits of some songs are OK. For me it signalled a band falling apart and running out of ideas. I've never got Rush at all, much to the annoyance of friends. I find them soulless, complex for complexity's sake, and Geddy's voice is awful, screechy and nasty, and I don't like Peart's lyrics at all either :(
I have a small window for Rush admittedly. I get what you are saying, but I do connect with 4-5 albums
Internet connection scuppered me. No doubt that I missed out on a real fun show, but my co-Prog Seat mates did not disappoint! Great show guys, wish my tech had allowed me to throw in my thoughts!
We missed you, brother!
@@georgelamie7001 Thanks George. I was shouting at the screen watching the show today and trying to add my tuppence worth! 😂
What were your thoughts on these discs?
@@joegrinvalsky7222 Thanks for asking Joe. I've made a separate post including all my notes for the show.
Steven, thank god you're not still frozen...🤣
Regarding Islands, I noticed none of you guys mentioned the Steven Wilson surround mix of this album, which is still available. IMO a great way to hear this album for all the great instrumentation and hopefully shed light on the underrated songwriting as well...
Funny enough, my first album from Gentle Giant was actually "Giant For A Day". And yes, I loved it at first sight. (hear). I didnt know about their past, and I have of course grown to love the whole catalogue. But I still love "Giant For A Day", even though everyone seems to hate it thee days.
It's revisionist history, just like it is with Yes "Tormato". All the Yes fans I knew back in '78, and I knew quite a few, loved "Tormato" & there was no talk of it being worse than previous albums, or of bad keys sounds & production, etc. It got a good reception when it was brand new, "Don't Kill the Whale" was on the radio, and the tour was one sell out show after another. Only later did the internet prog gatekeepers declare it a bad album and people fell into line...I didn't know as many GG fans, but with the ones I did know I can't remember any negative reaction to "Giant For a Day". I remember people talking about it and liking it. But the gatekeepers will not allow positivity in 2023.
What were Stephen Read's opinions on these discs? He must have done the homework? My takes: Yes - below par (production included), Rush - misunderstood, KC - definitely misunderstood, & GG - misunderstood.
I can't even explain why but In the Prog Seat is my favorite SoT show. The reason I can't explain it is because I don't even like prog beyond Rush. I just love the panelists and the almost academic conversations they have every week. It's very entertaining and educational.
Thanks for watching, much appreciated!
@@ericporter344 I also forgot to mention that the back and forth between Ken and Anthony alone makes it worth watching.
It has to be said ... that the Prog Seat really has a large hole when Mr Reid is not able to join :)
I miss Steven and Chuck for sure
I miss Armando and Rick
Caress of Steel, criminally underrated! It lacks standout classics like Fly by Night, 2112, A Farewell to Kings, and Hemispheres, but ranking it lower (which I would do) is a slight technicality. It's barely any different from the others. Great record.
Really interesting episode and excellent choices for the topic. I think islands is pretty decent, it just has too many lulls and quite moments for me and i gravitate towards it when I am in the mood. However Ian Wallace, the drummer was also part of the crimson jazz trio that played jazz covers of king crimson and those albums are absolutely fantastic! Caress of steel though is my second favourite album by rush after fly by night. It's a fantastic album and one of the heaviest albums from that time period. It's one of my favorite Alex lifeson albums and some of the chords he plays is truly unreal, some of the chords that he plays on fountain of lamneth would be opeth's mainstay decades later. It just has a lovely aura and mystique to it. I think I am going bald is the only outlier and semi-dud on the record. The rest is fantastic. Necromancer has one of my favorite lifeson solos. Criminally underrated imo
I don't care for the other two choices. Tormato is forgettable to me
Great episode! I hated Tormato when it was first released because it followed Going for the One, which I love. But over the years, I've grown to really like Tormato, a very underappreciated album!
I never liked Caress of Steel, never understood it's appeal. That and Hold Your Fire are my least favorite Rush albums.
Great show guys as always.
Thanks Jonathan
the one album that ive always loved is Eddie Jobson and zincs green album from 1983 a fantastic blend of modern sounds and prog easy for you to say, who my friends, and through the glass are some highlights
This was a great discussion, especially the GG part. Cheers all!! 🍺
Good show, Eric. Congratulations😊
Wow! Did not expect to see Islands on this list. It's always been my favourite King Crimson album. Interesting...
Great show guys
Totally agree, Caress of Steel had to be made to get to 2112. I for one LOVE Caress of Steel!
As someone relatively newer to the Yes catalogue (born in '79, never really got into Yes until the last year or so), I found myself actually drifting back to Tormato in rotation with stuff like Close to the Edge, Relayer, and Tales (Tales btw my favorite Yes album if that tells you anything about the Yes I like). I think it is terribly underrated in comparison to a lot of their stuff, and I actually also prefer this over Going for the One and Drama, which I both like too though. I don't even mind Circus of Heaven...
Tales 💕
Greatest of all time!
Welcome to the island of misfit prog LPs!
Enjoyed this discussion. I enjoy Caress Of Steel. The only thing is the drums sound low or not mic. I never understand why they sound like that..
Thank you Mr. Golden for turning me onto Spirit of Christmas!
I always loved Caress of Steel. I owned the archives version in cassette and the song order was messed up. Didacts and Naroets was on side one and I think I’m going Bald was on side 2. It really made the Fountain of Lamneth confusing to me until I bought the actual cassette version. I have no idea if that was for all copies of archives or a limited set of them.
Early in my Rush fandom, I didn’t gravitate towards Caress of Steel as much. It is now one of my favorites and has been for a number of years. I think it’s a slow burn and takes some dedicated listening to really appreciate.
Is there any chance of getting next week's albums in advance so that we might visit/revisit them prior to the episode?
Absolutely fantastic episode! Too bad about the technical difficulties across the pond. :-(
Oh, and does anyone else feel like there's a disturbance in the Force when George is forced to comment only on bands that everybody's actually heard of!?
Genesis 'And Then There Were Three', Jethro Tull 'Rock Island', ELP 'Black Moon', and Pink Floyd 'The Final Cut'.
If Caress of Steel had been Rush's first and only album, and they had just disappeared from the music scene, we'd all be talking about this crazy prog cult LP that fell through the cracks of time.
Great show guys.
Pete... would you ever consider doing a ranking of the Captain Beefheart albums?
Not a fan, sorry.
Great show gang
Thanks!
When I bought Islands and listened it for the first time, I found it loathsome, I traded it immediately.
It was like 5 years later when the first anniversary editions arrived when I bought it again as a completist, and because the editions resembled the Japanese lp replicas, really nice packagings.
And it grew on me on a way I didn't expected because of the 2 main tunes mentioned: Sailor's Tale and Islands.
I can stomach Boz Burrells vocals more than what's made in Lizard, and I think is better than Lizard and even Poseidon.
Strange band formation, strange direction for the band, almost like a shipwreck, definitely a more gentle album than we are used to expect from KC, and that's not a bad thing.
Now I will definitely get the vinyl.
As for Gentle Giant, it's sad that not even after many years they didn't reunite again when the fever for hits passed away and many bands just did what they know, like Van Der Graaf Generator and King Crimson. Their break up was amicable so I don't get it.
My introduction to GG was Words from the Wise and I loved that song to death, but yeah, that album was a dud. Words was a good song that showed they were capable to compose hooks and hummable songs.
Love 'Islands'... and 'Sailors tale' and 'Ladies of the road' would easily fit in 'Larks' Tongues in Aspic'...just add in the spice of Jamie Muir's percussion.
"Ladies of the Road" lyrics interesting!
😂
Oh, Luis.
You bought that cassette in Metro Insurgentes?!?
Cool stuff there, definitely like a prog street drug dealer that hooked you into great music.
It's not there long time ago.
Is it just me but Bastille Day influenced the riff for Kill the King by Rainbow???
Good morning All, Still here in PR for the next week, of the four “Islands” is the album I’ve listened to the most from the four and I still like. “Civilian” is in my opinion the most underrated of the four, like mentioned an improvement over “Giant For A Day” which was a terrible album. My love for Yes is waning each year, and “Tormato” has some great moments yet hadn’t listen to it in years same with “Caress of Steel” another album with strong moments yet rarely listen to as well.
You were totally missed on the last couple episodes. I'm with you on Yes, sad to say. I do like Islands, but I have to be in the right mood to listen to it. Civilian gets slagged probably because it isn't 'prog' enough. I love the Rush album, even if it might be rough around the edges.
"Tormato": like it a lot. I'll take it over "Going" and "Tales" anytime, more energetic and focused imho.
"Caress of Steel": love it, but it doesn't have the hooks "2112" has and it's much darker. I believe "The Fountain of Lamneth" could have been trimmed down and paired with an extra song.
"Civilian": the only GG I don't own and have never heard it.
"Islands": Love "Islands" and "Lizard". Again a much darker album with crazy dynamics. Might be the most under-rated of these 4.
Cheers.
King Crimson's Islands is one of my favorites. It is exceptional. I'm not going to say it better or worse than ITCOTCK, Red, or Discipline because it so different than those 3, but I hold it just as high in esteem and in how much I listen to it. Sailors Tale contains spectacular, innovative guitar work -- one of Master Fripp's finest. Islands is wonderful. You can quibble over Ladies of the Road or Formentera Lady, but I still enjoy them, I don't agree with the comment that these might have been a move towards the mainstream. There is nothing mainstream about this recording. They were never going to be hits, nor are they Beatlesque. I think some people might not rate it favorably becuase it is quieter than most of KC's efforts or doesn't sound like ITCOTCK. And an appreciation of a wide variety of music (not just metal) will certainly help with your appreciation of Islands. I do agree with the comment that the latest incarnation of KC, 2014-2021, performances of this material will find the songs new fans. And you can always dig deeper with KC's "Sailors Tales (1970-1972)" box set.
Next week we need Martin defending Abacab as the best Genesis album against the prog seat crew, it would be interesting !
I think Caress Of Steel is the birth of Prog Metal, it's such a great album and as heavy as anything at that time. The Necromancer is a Top Ten Rush song for me and I love Neil's drum solo on Fountains. Such an underrated album.
Actually, I think it was the Wetton era of King Crimson that birthed Prog Metal.
@@DavidLazarus King Crimson had heavy songs but they are not a heavy band. While Rush was a heavy band, especially in the 70's. That is why Rush gets the credit for inventing Prog Metal.
@@danielwolski873 - I disagree. Most of King Crimson's music is pretty heavy. Especially the Wetton era and the mid to late Belew era.
@@DavidLazarus I think King Crimson heavy is different than Rush heavy, but I guess we'll agree to disagree
@@danielwolski873 - Arguably, Van der Graaf Generator accomplished it before even King Crimson. I'm thinking of the Pawn Hearts album. Now, yes, their brand of "proto metal" was quite different and relied more on instruments other than guitar and Peter's vocals. Honestly, I had to look up the release date for Pawn Hearts. Nevertheless, you could certainly say that VDGG paved the way for metal bands to come.
1. Yes - Tormato. I would put this in a 'suck' category. Several years ago, I made a ranking of Yes albums on my YT channel and I put Tormato even below Open Your Eyes, which has a notoriously bad reputation. I haven't listened much from Tormato since, but I think my reception is getting warmer towards Tormato. I think I would blame mostly the production, just awfully sounding album. And compositionally many songs on that album is a mess. There's too much happening on every song. I know Yes like to do a lot of things in a limited frame of time, but Tormato is at moments overly complex. Future Times / Rejoice is a fine song for me, I'm getting to like Onward, but I don't care much for anything else.
2. Rush - Caress of Steel. I think it's a little bit underrated. Yes, The Necromancer and Fountain of Lamneth aren't the most cohesive efforts, but some parts of those tracks sound really hard and intriguing. Bastille Day is an excellent opener. I Think I'm Going Bald is the weaker track, but at least musically it's surely not bad. Lakeside Park is a nice song also. Overall, a mediocre album, but certainly not bad.
3. King Crimson - Islands. I actually haven't encountered much of a criticism to Islands, many people I know like this album. In my younger days, I would've classified this as 'overrated' and claimed it was the weakest 70s KC album. But I like Islands now, more than Lizard actually. Boz is a fine vocalist for me - not excellent, not bad also. Instrumentally it's the most unusual album of 70s KC, a lot of experimentation with instrumentation, we have double bass and violin in Formentera Lady and fully classical piece Song of the Gulls. And the only thing I hate in the album is Song of the Gulls, for me it's a second-hand Tchaikovsky rip-off, not very original. Sailor's Tale and The Letters are two excellent tracks for me.
4. Gentle Giant - Civilian. Definitely underrated and definitely misunderstood. I agree with Pete, it's Gentle Giant's Moving Pictures sort of situation. I didn't feel that about The Missing Piece, it had a lot too much in common with earlier GG albums to call that a game-changer. Giant for a Day is terrible. And I discovered Civilian with knowing that for some people it's even worse than Giant for a Day, so that affected my attitude and I listened to Civilian for the first time with pre-determined refusal and that didn't help. But I unconsciously kept coming back for more listens and I caught myself enjoying a lot of tracks in Civilian, especially All Through The Night (one of my favourite Gentle Giant songs), Underground, Convenience, Shadows On The Street, a bonus track Heroes No More is also very likeable. It's very easy listen, but it feels like the record is made by excellent musicians, compositionally everything works. And I disagree that Derek is a weak vocalist. Well, Civilian maybe isn't the best Derek's performance, but it still very much suffices the needs of the album. Therefore, I think this album should've become big and certainly not last in their catalogue, and that's a pity.
I love all these albuns. And I like Arriving UFO and CIrcus of Heaven. THe production of Tormato is really the problem. When will we have a remix?
Caress of Steel was actually the first one I bought by Rush, together with 2112. Absolutely LOVE The Fountain of Lamneth! Lakeside Park, wonderful little "ditty". I could do without Going Bald though, but what the heck. :)
My 1st Yes album was Tormato, still a favourite and still listen to it, also other Yes album such as BG and Talk. Albums with TH such as Fly From Here. Very underrated. Love COS, Bastille Day turned up loud, wow.
Gotta love Tormato
"Or abandon all hope..
For your brother!"
@@barrypeirson3710 Thanks Barry. My favourite era of Yes is from Tormato to BG. Must be something about that time, my favourite Rush era is from P.Waves to GUP. Thanks again Barry, it's good to find another Tormato fan, I don't feel alone, lol.
Tormato is great.
I think people don't want to admit it.
I read on Caress of Steel the printers botched the job...the lettering and picture was supposed to be silver or steel color and the green area blue, but it turned out a bronze color and was too expensive to re-print them...I think it was from "Rush Visions"
I know the album gets a lot of criticism but Caress of Steel is one of my favorite Rush albums. For a while it was my favorite.
The BBC recording of the Tormato tour at Wembley is just majestic and the Tormato songs work so well in the set ... I think Tormato is a strong LP and one I listen to a lot ... agree that the production could have been better ... the live version of Circus of Heaven is great and I love it ....
Caress of Steel is also one of my go to Rush albums ... along with Farewell to Kings, Hemispheres, Permanent Waves ....
p.s. I would buy an official release of Yes at Empire Pool Wembley on the Tormato Tour in a instant ... with / without the logo ! CMcG. Aberdeen, Scotland
Tormato is a hundred times better than 90125, Big Generator and Drama - all put together!
@@lemming9984 How is Tormato better than Drama?
@@JIF882 It just is! God told me in a dream.
@@lemming9984 What an odd comment
Caress of Steel is the only album out of the bunch that I have heard, I do like the album, own the album. Ken is right, it is a sign of things to come but it still has some classic stuff on it. I remember Geddy or Alex said they played it for the guys in KISS, while on tour together, he said they didn't get it lol It wasn't straight forward hard rock anymore, their prog side was starting to blossom. I'll have to give the other albums a listen, I'm still a novice when it comes to prog, watching Pete's channel, I've learned about bands like Gentle Giant etc. Only took me being in my late 40's to start wising up eh? lol Good show guys!
Civilian by Gentle Giant is the only album I have listened to by them (started listening to GG exactly 22 minutes ago, sorry had to pause SoT). This is a great album. Similarities to Drama and 90125 (which I also really love). I must be weird because Broadsword is the JT album I reach for. Same goes for Sabbath (Mob Rules and Heaven are my favorites).
Pete is spot-on with his comments on Caress of Steel. Definitely more like Fly By Night and 2112 than not. I've always thought that it was strange it was maligned so much. Not the best Rush has made, certainly, but I find myself reaching for it more or as much as any Rush album. Certainly more than the later part of their catalog.
It's their best album
Pete talks about bands who transitioned successfully into the 80s - Utopia moved into the 80s, but in the 70s! Now that's prog.
You guys actually mentioned the prog band I've been obsessed with since 1975, after that Camel Moondance has been my favorite, period. Of any prog band, far and wide.
I am the opposite of Eric. I like 'Caress of Steel', and 'Islands', I feel 'Tormato' is ok, but 'Civilian' to me is just meh. But then again, I absolutely love VdGG too lol!
side note- Caress of Steel has one of the best album covers ever. My opinion.
I can't comment on GG's Civilian. I've never heard it. I had Tormato and Caress back in the day. I agree with most of the comments, not crap but not the best. KC's Islands I love. I find it melodically stronger than Lizard. Boz Burrell's vocals are streets ahead of Haskell's from Lizard. I agree the lyrics for Ladies of the Road are naff but the album is musically stronger than both Poseidon and Lizard. I think the A side is a perfect side of music. Prelude is a gorgeous classically based piece and I agree with Ken that Islands is a bit meandering in places. It's still a very good piece. The album isn't breaking new ground musically, it's transitional, but a beautiful record.
Caress of Steel is a top 5 Rush album. The fountain of lambeth is a song cycle, starting at birth and moving thru each stage of life, and ending to began again. Brilliant song!
I agree completely with Luis concerning Tormato. A better cover would’ve increased sales substantially I think; the last time I saw the band Onward was used as a concert opener, empty stage, just Chris’ white bass. Pure class. I like islands too, Caress of Steel is wonderful, Civilian not so much.
Most of the time, a band tours to support a new record. I always felt Yes made Tormato to support a new tour. On a side note, the "in the round" show during that time was awesome
I love Caress of Steel… as Anthony said at the bridge is a 5 star solo (too bad ken is right about the flow for the rest of that song)… I listened to it earlier today actually and I guess now I realize play it more often than I thought (7.5/10)
Me too. Fountain of Lamneth is gloriously bonkers.
Caress Of Steel is my favorite Rush album-talk about contrarian huh. Although I will admit some of my fondness is pure nostalgia (I bought it as a new release,as I did with the debut-I'm old),I love the darkness and melancholy of the album. Saw them on the 2112 tour where they actually did The Necromancer,which I recently found out was somewhat of a rare occurrence.
Another really engrossing listen, I really like caress of steel, Tormato and islands are just ok, not heard Civilian, but I do plan to buy it, nothing I actively dislike there at all.
Caress of Steel - in the lowest third of Rush albums for me. My favorite on it is The Necromancer, which is awesome. It’s a bit awkwardly arranged and a bit weak lyrically, but good lord is it HEAVY, and it has some of my favorite Alex Lifeson guitar. He’s just molten - it’s incredible.
Islands is the best of the lot. never understood why people disliked it. The chorus of Ladies is one of the most beautiful pieces of music.
Cool topic guys!! Caress of Steel was definitely a huge letdown for a kid who just consumed 2112 as their first exposure to Rush. Listening again now, I’m not so sure I was wrong. Bastille Day the exception.
But yeah you can definitely hear it’s the training ground for 2112. (Just noticed Lakeside Park’s latter half has a very similar guitar part including the same tone as IV Presentation on 2112). That’s cool, but that fact alone doesn’t make it any more enjoyable to listen to that goofy talking and lack of overall flow. 🤷♂️
Islands is so cool.
Listening now
Sea of Tranquility is why I started listening to KC in the first place.
Tormato 7.5/10
Caress of Steel 8/10 (Bastille Day alone makes it worth it)
Islands 8/10
Haven't heard Civilian
I play Caress of Steel quite a lot. Probably in my top five presently. This is probably due to the fact that I never overplayed it in the past. The historical Bastille day is epic, the fantasy Necromancer an epic prologue of what was to come, and of course the reflective Lakeside Park is also epic. At this point Rush were ahead of the curve, it's not a surprise fans didn't get it straight away. Consider the musical change from Moving Pictures to Signals, how many fans freaked out at this and just couldn't adapt musically. I know it took me some time.
Generally lost interest in Yes and Rush during the 80s. Always return to the 70's catalogue if I want to listen to them. The only Yes album I liked after Going For The One was The L:adder.
Your perogative, but I absolutely love 90125. Not as much as Close to the Edge or Relayer, but a whole lot more than Topographic, Going for the One or Tormato. It's a different vibe but the songs on 90125 are really strong, and Rabin's a beast
@@michaelcottle6270 Tormato was a major disappointment. Think I preferred Drama to Tormato. I thought Rabin's guitar work was the best thing about 90125.. Can see why he was in demand as a producer as well.
Tormato - I used to like Onward to the exclusion of the rest. These days that song has fallen some in my estimation, while On the Silent Wings of Freedom has grown - I love it now. And I really enjoy Release Release. I like Steve Howe’s guitar better on the live Don’t Kill the Whale than studio. I agree the album has bad keyboard sounds and production. For me, the underrated Yes albums are the first one and The Ladder.
I'm with Anthony, Alex's work on Caress and the previous Fly By night is spectacular. His tone and wah work really showcase his blue's originated talent.
I love the Styx t-shirt.