you probably dont care at all but does any of you know of a method to get back into an Instagram account?? I somehow lost my login password. I would love any tricks you can give me.
@Ameer Rocco i really appreciate your reply. I got to the site on google and I'm in the hacking process atm. Looks like it's gonna take a while so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
I built an LP style kit last year and remember doing the measurements trying to check the bridge placement and could not get the math to add up (using the 2x 12th fret rule). Was confused AF, but emailed the manufacturer and they assured me everything was within spec. NOW I understand what's happening. I just retook measurements today and it's exactly what you're talking about. It's 24.75 nut to saddle, but shorter nut to 12th, and the nut to 1st is also shorter than equal tempered. Wow, just wow. Unbelievable that guitars are still rolling off the production line to this day with this incorrect fret spacing. On the bright side, I guess it doesn't matter enough to affect the actual music too much if nobody *really* notices without measuring. Addendum: also occurs to me that this partially explains PRS (the man) relaying that many session players find their vintage instruments have bad intonation.
As of 2019, Gibson USA has moved to a twelfth root of two spacing. I have had probably a half dozen or so of these across my bench and they are spot on 24.562 from the 1st to the 22nd. They also have none of the typical Gibson intonation problems in the second octave that the older rule of 18 fingerboards exhibit. The end is near.
This video and your others regarding scale length and intonation are by far the very best I've ever come across anywhere. You explain everything in great depth and in a way that couldn't be easier to understand. A+++ thank you for all your work and helping to further our understanding of these subjects. Liked and subscribed!
Wow. So much good information here. I just bought a Gibson SG voodoo and it sounds great but I am trying to figure out the best intonation setup for it. The length measures at 24-3/4" from nut to low E side bridge pole.
Is there a relationship between Scale Length and Tuning Freq? A few years ago while studying the concept of 440 vs 432 hz tuning, I found an article by a very renowned spanish Classical guitar luthier that stated that, the right scale length for a classical guitar tuned at 440hz should be 660mm.. But it didn't explain the exact reason why, or the origin of the rule, and I haven't been able to find a second learned opinion or determine it myself. Now, there's certainly a massive difference in sound/Harmonic content and playability, between say a Stratocaster and a Ibanez RG type guitar; or between an Acoustic Steel guitar and a Classical guitar, and (besides materials) that's clearly an effect of scale length.. But what about Intonation? I've got a classical guitar (Prudencio Saez) of a 650mm scale, built (I guess) by the old Torres standards, from an era where the standard tuning was the French "diapason normale" of 435hz.. Does that mean that it must be tuned at 435hz for the best Intonation and Harmonic content? What's the origin of the 650 or 660mm figure? Is it just common practice, or is there a real reason why settling with one or the other? Because if I apply a cross multiplication I get: (650·440)/660 = 433,3^hz, Would this be right or am I missing something to conform with the actual proportions of equal temperament?? And isn't it counter-intuitive that a Shorter scale length calls for a Lower tuning freq, instead of a higher one?
What type and model of micrometer are you using at 7:56? It looks perfect for some guitar design work I am doing. Thanks for the clear explanation of this problem.
They get sharper. Barely noticeable in the 15-17 range where most players spend their time, but a bit more so as you approach 22. ruclips.net/video/NEjekEOMWmg/видео.htmlsi=fMUdUvoLzKUdYcO9&t=1013
Somebody wrote that Gibson has used [at least] the scale lengths 24 5/8" (24.625") and 24 9/16" (24.563"). I just noticed that 24,594 is exactly half-way between those two.
+Kevin Lau - The difference is extremely subtle, so much that very few would ever notice any difference at all. It does affect how I approach adjusting intonation on them in a very minor way, which I will get in to in a later video.
@@A2Guitars I know it's been years, but I would still love to hear your insights on how you're approaching intonation on these guitars. I've watched your other videos on intonation, and I don't think that was covered. In any case, I hope you're doing well!
The most simple summary is that I lean a tiny bit more flat at the 12th fret on rule of 18 guitars than I may on standard spaced boards. I don’t subscribe to the notion of intonation ever being precisely set - there is always a range of error, from variation in touch of the fretting hand, to change in pitch from the attack through the decay. On standard boards I typically shoot for the middle of this range, maybe allowing for a slight sharpening at the initial attack and close to center after 1/4-1/2 second of settling. On rule of 18 boards I simply lean a bit more flat, maybe a cent or three at the 12th fret, then I check intonation in the 17-19 fret range and make sure it is not more than a few cents sharp there. It’s a subjective adjustment, and just as different piano tuners will inevitably deliver slightly different variations on the same piano, different techs will find what they consider an intonation sweet spot to be a bit different. Simplest answer though, I personally just tend to lean a hair flatter at the 12th on a Gibson than I might on a Fender.
@@A2Guitars Thanks, I really appreciate your response! I've recently ran into your channel and ended up binge watching as all your content is so well researched and presented. I think your suggestion makes a lot of sense given the tendency of notes to go sharp above the 12th fret on these kinds of fretboards.
So what you are saying is that even today Gibson use a less precise formula for calculating a fretboard layout? I mean I learned over 30 years ago you should use 17,817 and they still use 18? Thats weird really weird
If you think metric/USC is relevant, you need to rewatch the video to understand the points made. They could be using ant body lengths to measure and the same issues would arise. Galileo's father wasn't using metric or English-derived inches.
This video is one of the most informative I've ever scene regarding frets location and scale length. A+!
you probably dont care at all but does any of you know of a method to get back into an Instagram account??
I somehow lost my login password. I would love any tricks you can give me.
@Phillip Mitchell instablaster =)
@Ameer Rocco i really appreciate your reply. I got to the site on google and I'm in the hacking process atm.
Looks like it's gonna take a while so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
@Ameer Rocco It did the trick and I finally got access to my account again. I am so happy:D
Thank you so much, you saved my account !
@Phillip Mitchell glad I could help xD
This is the most informative and well-explained breakdown of scale lengths I've ever heard! Nicely done!!
I built an LP style kit last year and remember doing the measurements trying to check the bridge placement and could not get the math to add up (using the 2x 12th fret rule). Was confused AF, but emailed the manufacturer and they assured me everything was within spec.
NOW I understand what's happening. I just retook measurements today and it's exactly what you're talking about. It's 24.75 nut to saddle, but shorter nut to 12th, and the nut to 1st is also shorter than equal tempered. Wow, just wow. Unbelievable that guitars are still rolling off the production line to this day with this incorrect fret spacing. On the bright side, I guess it doesn't matter enough to affect the actual music too much if nobody *really* notices without measuring.
Addendum: also occurs to me that this partially explains PRS (the man) relaying that many session players find their vintage instruments have bad intonation.
As of 2019, Gibson USA has moved to a twelfth root of two spacing. I have had probably a half dozen or so of these across my bench and they are spot on 24.562 from the 1st to the 22nd. They also have none of the typical Gibson intonation problems in the second octave that the older rule of 18 fingerboards exhibit.
The end is near.
I don't want to know all that you know about this subject....but I'm so glad you know it! Thanks for this explanation, deep
This video and your others regarding scale length and intonation are by far the very best I've ever come across anywhere. You explain everything in great depth and in a way that couldn't be easier to understand. A+++ thank you for all your work and helping to further our understanding of these subjects. Liked and subscribed!
Love these videos - thank you or sharing your knowledge and passion for guitars.
I second that emotion.
Absolutely brilliant explanation, I'm hungry for more!
Excellent video. Well presented.
Thank you for this, very helpful!
Wow. So much good information here. I just bought a Gibson SG voodoo and it sounds great but I am trying to figure out the best intonation setup for it. The length measures at 24-3/4" from nut to low E side bridge pole.
Fascinating explanation
Many thanks for this valuable information!
Is there a relationship between Scale Length and Tuning Freq?
A few years ago while studying the concept of 440 vs 432 hz tuning, I found an article by a very renowned spanish Classical guitar luthier that stated that, the right scale length for a classical guitar tuned at 440hz should be 660mm..
But it didn't explain the exact reason why, or the origin of the rule, and I haven't been able to find a second learned opinion or determine it myself.
Now, there's certainly a massive difference in sound/Harmonic content and playability, between say a Stratocaster and a Ibanez RG type guitar; or between an Acoustic Steel guitar and a Classical guitar, and (besides materials) that's clearly an effect of scale length..
But what about Intonation?
I've got a classical guitar (Prudencio Saez) of a 650mm scale, built (I guess) by the old Torres standards, from an era where the standard tuning was the French "diapason normale" of 435hz..
Does that mean that it must be tuned at 435hz for the best Intonation and Harmonic content?
What's the origin of the 650 or 660mm figure?
Is it just common practice, or is there a real reason why settling with one or the other?
Because if I apply a cross multiplication I get: (650·440)/660 = 433,3^hz,
Would this be right or am I missing something to conform with the actual proportions of equal temperament??
And isn't it counter-intuitive that a Shorter scale length calls for a Lower tuning freq, instead of a higher one?
Very interesting stuff, thanks.
What type and model of micrometer are you using at 7:56? It looks perfect for some guitar design work I am doing. Thanks for the clear explanation of this problem.
Great history lesson, makes me wonder if PRS scale length of 24.5 is same as Gibsons "24.75" on the electrics.
My 2013 SG has a scale length of 24.56"
What you said - completely agree - with all you said. Could not have said it better myself :-)
Bravo! Thank you so much!
8:50 but which video covers the gibson upper fret intonation differences? Do the upper frets produce flat notes?
They get sharper. Barely noticeable in the 15-17 range where most players spend their time, but a bit more so as you approach 22.
ruclips.net/video/NEjekEOMWmg/видео.htmlsi=fMUdUvoLzKUdYcO9&t=1013
Can you do a similar explanation of the significance of the new PRS 24.594" scale length (on the McCarty 594)?
Somebody wrote that Gibson has used [at least] the scale lengths 24 5/8" (24.625") and 24 9/16" (24.563"). I just noticed that 24,594 is exactly half-way between those two.
Brilliant
Great channel
thank you for lesson :)
would you pick a Martin or a Taylor?
awesome' fun stuff!
Wonder if that contributes to the difference in tone between Gibsons and copies.
+Kevin Lau - The difference is extremely subtle, so much that very few would ever notice any difference at all. It does affect how I approach adjusting intonation on them in a very minor way, which I will get in to in a later video.
@@A2Guitars I know it's been years, but I would still love to hear your insights on how you're approaching intonation on these guitars. I've watched your other videos on intonation, and I don't think that was covered. In any case, I hope you're doing well!
The most simple summary is that I lean a tiny bit more flat at the 12th fret on rule of 18 guitars than I may on standard spaced boards.
I don’t subscribe to the notion of intonation ever being precisely set - there is always a range of error, from variation in touch of the fretting hand, to change in pitch from the attack through the decay. On standard boards I typically shoot for the middle of this range, maybe allowing for a slight sharpening at the initial attack and close to center after 1/4-1/2 second of settling. On rule of 18 boards I simply lean a bit more flat, maybe a cent or three at the 12th fret, then I check intonation in the 17-19 fret range and make sure it is not more than a few cents sharp there.
It’s a subjective adjustment, and just as different piano tuners will inevitably deliver slightly different variations on the same piano, different techs will find what they consider an intonation sweet spot to be a bit different.
Simplest answer though, I personally just tend to lean a hair flatter at the 12th on a Gibson than I might on a Fender.
Sorry about that - I was logged in to my personal photography/hobby account. The above reply from the Michigan Nature and Wildlife page is from me.
@@A2Guitars Thanks, I really appreciate your response! I've recently ran into your channel and ended up binge watching as all your content is so well researched and presented. I think your suggestion makes a lot of sense given the tendency of notes to go sharp above the 12th fret on these kinds of fretboards.
Amazing
So what you are saying is that even today Gibson use a less precise formula for calculating a fretboard layout? I mean I learned over 30 years ago you should use 17,817 and they still use 18? Thats weird really weird
Yup. Bizarre as it may seem, they're still doing it this way.
Thank for this history lesson. Informative and downright comic. This is why I use the metric system, like the rest of the world.
If you think metric/USC is relevant, you need to rewatch the video to understand the points made. They could be using ant body lengths to measure and the same issues would arise. Galileo's father wasn't using metric or English-derived inches.
i love your videos.
So is my '61 SG not based on 12th root of 2?
+Patrick Ford Nope. That one would certainly be spaced to the rule of 18. Again, differences are very minor, but consistent on Gibsons since 1947.
+A2Guitars another question: would a modern '61 reissue use 18 or 12th root of 2?
+Patrick Ford - That would be rule of 18. All US made Gibson electrics since 1947 have used this system.
Just saw this, no wonder the guitars Dave has set up for me play sooooooooo in tune. Galileos'? Dad? Who knew? Dave,,,,,,,,,,
12th root of 2! Bam!
what a mess, too much , thank you sir.
T.M.I.
Haha . America - Simple numbers . Are you joking ? Go with metric and see how easy it is