Piggy-backing off this comment, when Galrauch was possesed his head and neck split in two. (And looking at the model you can clearly see they grotesquely split down the middle.)
Galrauch defeated the greater demon by biting its head off, if I recall correctly. A great victory for the elves who then watched in horror as he began to convulse and mutate with his head and neck eventually splitting in two. You are what you eat!
Just a note, the strength bonus for flails does not key off of charging! It specifically says “A flail’s Strength modifier applies only during the first round of combat”, so it works whether or not you’ve charged. This does make a Berserker champion with flail pretty good for the Wolves special challenge! EDIT: ah you got that, good
That has me thinking. I was all ‘lawl, Here’s my Cold One knight champ. Enjoy his four attacks and 3+ as.’ It’s not the lock I assumed it was. Hell, I might lose my 40 pt. Model!
@@AP-hv9ll a Cold One Knights champ is probably one of the better bets in the Warrior’s Duel! But with the easy access to flails on Huscarl/Berserker champions (or the Biting Blade on a Warrior champion) they’re not guaranteed to succeed, it’s true
Heralds of Darkness is the first miss from the arcane journal lists we’ve gotten. They really should have incentivised placing characters with the corresponding marked units to make it different from the less restrictive grand army. Something like character in unit gets: Nurgle - re-roll armour saves of 1 on character and +1T in unit. Slaanesh - first strike on character and perma +1I on unit Khorne - furious charge on character and unit Tzeentch - MR to unit and another +1 to casting roll.
I was so looking forward to the Heralds of Darkness Army of Infamy. I was hoping we'd see something like Chosen on Daemonic Mounts as a new unit in Rare or something to really drive home this terrifying cavalry army, that could additionally let people make Skull Crushers, or Disc Riding Tzeentch guys or whatever with daemonic mount kits. It would solve one of the big issues Chaos Knights/Chosen Knights have of being only 1 Wound each. Instead it truly feels like the team spent all of their time making the Wolves of the Sea and then quickly submitted whatever rough draft they had of the second Army of Infamy they had. I also have to severely disagree with the love that was being given to the Daemonic Barding item. 35 points for what will amount to at most six WS3, Str4, AP- attacks on the charge is such a huge waste of points. Even against lowly Empire troops, you're looking at about 1 extra Wound on average. 35 points isn't a small mount of points and I just don't think I could ever justify spending that many points on such low threat attacks, especially since this is eating into someone's Magical Item points that could be spent elsewhere.
It’s funny because I’ve been building this list for a month and then when they released the new models I shifted entirely into a spell slinging shooting army with dragons
@@vurtne galrauch, 3 exalted sorcerers one with the infernal puppet and diabolical splendor, the others with a spell familiar with one using a lore familiar. And a level 2 warp fire dragon. With the rest of the list you can put into core however you want. Now you can do two things, one is you run 3 lines of 5 chaos warriors with the mark of tzeentch. Or you can run one long where you give the champion the taskmasters scourge to buff their movement speed by D3 if they pass a leadership test, and the banner called the icon of darkness which provides a -1 to enemies trying to shoot this unit. This leaves 383 points left, which is enough for 18 forsaken if you want to go that route or you can put in chaos war hounds and skirmishing marauder horsemen or just regular marauders and rush them ahead of your gun line. Because the units are skirmishing enemies attempting to shoot your gun line will suffer -2 to their shots because technically they have LOS through the skirmishers but it counts as being in partial cover so they have that debuff, and if you remember the banner we took on our unit and the Diabloic speldor on our lord enemies suffer a -4 to hitting our gun line. With threats like galrauch, the warp fire dragon pushing down the flanks with your war hounds or horsemen you should be able to pin down any cav trying to shut down your gun line. Keep in mind galrauch has a chance to high roll and shut down a dragon instantly. But with your 3 sorcerers let’s say you low roll on every single magic roll and you only have the blue fire of tzeentch; one guy is still guaranteed to have that, pillar of fire, and fire ball. That’s 16 shots if you roll all 1’s with a shooting potential of 39 on all 6’s, that is not including their chances to roll other spells from the battle magic category and not including galrauch and the warp fire dragon (I only don’t count them because they have no way of getting guaranteed magic missile attacks but there is a chance for them to£ And that’s the rough idea of the concept, and point values. The last few hundred points are flexible but that’s the list
@@vurtne I would like to say that I tried a list with galrauch and a sorcerer lord with the skull of katam in a shooting block with two other lords, it’s just too many points. Realistically if you want the best gun line you need to cut galrauch and run a demon Prince, a lot more versatile and yoy can make level 2 wizards cast at 4+ and have your sorcerer lord only fail spell casts on double 1’s with an average of 50 hits a turn with magic missiles and having your units flying about. You just can’t justify the skull of katam without it effecting Atleast 2 level 2 wizards which is why in the galrauch list you don’t see that item there
A Demon Prince is Infantry on a 50x50 base. The Bloodskull Pendant could work on that. Exchanging 5 Attacks for up to 4 autohits with S8 and Killing Blow could be worth it. Especially dangerous for monstrous units, like Ogres and Dragon Ogres (there just 3 auto hits), or units that give negative modifiers for To-Hit rolls. A bit situational and not good vs. single models, but might not be bad.
I would argue that you're putting the bloodskull pendant on a sorcerer, actually. The drawback is that you're forfeiting your normal attacks? Not that much of a drawback on a caster. If you are running with your sorcerer lord in a controversial warrior bunker, you can fit both the pendant and whichever arcane items you need in the magic item allowance. It would add a fair bit of CR with the str8 autohits.
@@riddarhjalmar True, but the smaller base size means 3 bases in contact at best. But sure, it is better than the normal 2 Attacks. In combination with assailment spells... maybe?
@@MrMcBaine1 yeah, and with autohit the killing blow is a straight one to six chance. A neat surprise for that enemy character hoping to take out your sorcerer.
The marauder list is just so cool. Thematic and ruleswise it feels like a smash hit. And then we have the cavalary list. Which feels both bad and boring. I LIKE the rule of a character with a mark demands a unit with the same mark and vice versa. But it is strictly worse than the Grand Army. They could atleast have gotten 1 unit of Chosen Knights/1000pts!
I would like the Mark-matching rule better if it came with some kind of bonus for having the marked character lead their unit. That way it’s not just a restriction but something you *want* to play into. Something like a buff for the first charge of the game; Khorne could give Hatred, Nurgle could give Poison Attacks, Slaanesh Strike First, and Tzeentch could give a random bonus between WS/S/A
@@Swarbie8D Yeah. Or just a straight buff as long as you got hero+unit Khorne = MR Nurgle = Poison Tzeentch = flameing magical attacks Slaanesh = .... armourbane 1? Whatever. But maybe the lore wouldnt work for this. We might be too Hung up on gameplay
Cool vid, guys! As a WoC player I'm pretty happy with the journal. Wolves Of The Sea has so much viking flavor it's ridiculous! Heralds and their 33% core is a little underwhelming. Love the theme of a mounted horde, but rules-wise I would have loved to see them be a little bit better. Magic Items are cool. Any weapon looks dumb compared to the Ogre Blade, but there are still some pretty cool options.
24:10 in the old Hordes of Chaos (6th edition) rulebook Galrauch was a single headed great drake, one of the greatest dragons for the High Elves before eating a greater daemon of Tzeentch, who then possessed the body of Galrauch and gave him 2 heads by ripping his neck in half down the middle (the last bit how I interpet the artwork and old Galrauch model). The old Spirit of Galrauch rules punished the chaos player way harder by giving control of Galrauch to the enemy player for that turn if you double 6'd the LD test! As for clown/circus act...
One thing I feel like noting about the Marauder Chieftain vs the Aspiring Champion: Their base statline is identical. 65pts vs 70pts. Light armour + 6+ ward vs heavy armour + 5+ ward. Ambusher + Warband vs Ensorcelled Weapons. As the points difference is nearly negligible, and their available kit is nearly the same (though the Champion has more mount options), I think their roles are their defining characteristics - the Champion is the stronger combat character, where the Chieftain trades some of that combat prowess for deployment/movement flexibility (and, if you put him in a big brick, ld10 thanks to Warband).
You seem to miss that Mighty Serpent's Scalemail is NOT a magic weapon, so you can combine it with a magic weapon to strike first with it or cancel out strike last with a Great Weapon, unlike The Sword of Swiftness.
I love that Chaos Knights are undesirable Core choice for Chaos, but are actually miles better than the only viable Core Choice of regular Knights for Empire.
So what I've got from this video is, "be who you want to be" and I want to be a dragon! Great overview, guys! Can't wait for this Arcane Journal to release! For CHAOS!
skin wolves get to choose but they have to be engaged in combat to get to choose? Could put a character with Daemonic mount in with them if going open order, caster with mark of nurgle making them t6 potentially?
nope. only same sub type of unit can join skirmisher. skin wolves are monstrous infantry. they could be joined only by a deamon prince without the flying rule..but a dp is also warp spawned e they don't..so he cannot 😛
@@matteodefrancesco1213 that’s why i specified the skin wolves adopting open order, characters must be the same sub type if the formation adopted by the unit is skirmish.
So the issue with Grimoire of Ogvold and getting the Lore of Chaos Mark Spells- The Lore of Chaos are not from their chosen Lore, and the Lore of chaos specifies you may "discard one of your randomly generated spells as normal. When they do so they may take either the signature spell of their chosen lore of magic, or the spell that corresponds to their mark of chaos". So when you take the grimoire, you neither randomly generate spells AND you have to take the signature. So no lore of chaos with the grimoire.
There are not "plenty of options". And usually that "option" is going full gunline or full magic missiles. I would be curious to see what other options you see that I may have missed. Countering it with your own Dragon I don't consider being part of that for obvious reasons.
@@ThePaintedHope I heard there is a dragon slayer sword for lords, is it good or are there any other counter measures? I'm new so apologies if that sounds naive.
You suggested the BSB standing near Galauch to help him with his special rule and any potential stupidity from Gaze of the Gods, but that wouldn't help. The BSB helps allows rerolls of Panic, Rally and Break tests. It doesn't help with Stupidity or Galrauch's special test.
I have to point out to both of you Conan was indeed a pirate for some time and queen on the black coast is up there as the best story by Robert e Howard
imagine a line of 10 knights of tzeentch whith a sorcerer with the deamon forged barding and demonic vigour and vessel successfully cast on them. with diabolic splendour and icon of darkness.
Do Wolves of the Sea get to roll on the Gaze of the Gods table if they capture the standard of a Bretonnian Peasant Unit? They don't get VPs for it, but I think they might still get other benefits...
mate u just read my mind. For a gigantic spawn of Khorne ofc. Nurgle should be bulkier and more hideus. Slaneesh's thinner, etc. But yeah, Im totally using Khorgorath for my big spawnny friend
@@Talonz501 it barely fits on a 50x50 base and hangs over enough that base to base contact would be very hit or miss. If height is the concern it could be modeled on some high ground. Still think I’ll it’s a fun model for a khorne marked gigantic spawn - if nothing else it’ll add variety to the gigantic spawns out there. 🤷♂️
Stupid observation with the Heralds List... Mercenaries might be able to attach to your main army ("as if drawn from your own army list")... So tossing a Centigor Chieftan with Slugskin in a block of Nurgle Knights might well be a thing...
33:55 Seems the Dagger would have play on a Daemon Prince. 45:26 Rod is a good Ruby Ring. Summoning has AP while Fireball doesn't. You lose some range but you're pushing through more wounds if it goes off.
Summoning is slightly higher casting level than Fireball (and both are Bound level 2?), so might be a little less consistent. Just something to consider.
@@Na_bro_leon fair comment. It's a roll of 7 to cast (vs fireball needing 6) which is a decent spot on the 2D6 bellcurve still. Both will struggle to push through a level 4 dispel but I suppose the fireball has a range advantage for that. Probably just take both!
Some special banners for Heralds of Darkness that are locked to the two tiers would have been cool. One for regular warriors/knights and one for chosen warriors/knights. Could even have them do different things for different marks- since the Muster List for Heralds of Darkness is so light on beneficial special rules to begin with.
@@darthsphincter909and the 33% core requirement for heralds of darkness kills it imo. Should have allowed a unit of chosen knights as core or something, regular knights cost too much.
The warriors and knights in the book are pretty much ripped straight from 6th edition. They had 1 attack and heavy armour, and you could only take 1 unit of chosen per army. It's clear they've gone with a 6th edition vibe.
One of my favorite strategy games is Age of Empires 2. I think the best element of that game is how well it does rock-paper-scissors. Every unit shines in at least one specific case and always has at least one hard counter. I don't think there is currently scenario in Old World where ranked infantry performs like a trump card. In 8th edition, a unit with more ranks was steadfast (aka. stubborn, aka, always break tested on unmodified leadership). I think old world could use a version of steadfast. Perhaps your rank bonus blunts the initiative bonus of chargers, or one fighter from each rank can step up and fight back?
@@jackrogers5712 I agree that it would be a big step in the right direction. However, I think it needs some form of restraint, so that initiative doesn't get accidentally nerfed. That's why I thought that one 'step up' per rank would be a nice way to buff ranks. I think Old World has tried a bit too hard to be as different from 8th as possible, even though 8th had some awesome features.
@@jackrogers5712 I agree this would be a good start. I'd limit it to Regular & Heavy infantry, and potentially look to limit it further, so for example you'd only get to attack if you've got full rank bonus or maybe you get to step up and attack a number of models up to your current rank bonus. That makes deeper units more effective, which I certainly want to encourage. Perhaps this needs to be tied to altering marching column. Perhaps to be in marching column you must be narrower than your rank width (so 4 for regular infantry, 3 for heavy) allowing deeper units with less frontage to work without losing ranks. I'd also tone down linehammer by capping the number of models not in base contact that can attack. Maybe limit it to the double the rank bonus too? So units with 1 rank can get 2 models out of base contact attacking, one with 3 ranks could have up to 6. That would kill linehammer and make large blocks of infantry more effective.
FBIGO is part of the problem, as cavalry just gets to keep charging with lances each turn. A stubborn rule where you dont fall back or give ground would be handy. Infantry with spears in particular should get bonuses against cavalry. That would help as a counter, because mainly spears are pretty terrible currently.
Mighty Serpents Scale Mail being more expensive is probably because it’s not a weapon, and it’s costed so you cannot give a Chaos Lord that and an Ogre Blade…
I noticed the painted skin wolves pictures appraring after the square based episode. The contrasting skin and fur colour looks really weird on the model now.
can you use Galrauch as ALLY? if he can be, you can use him, like in a Chorfs army, with 5 dogs. you cannot take a chaos lord or a sorcerer on dragon as ally, because you don't have to points to add another troop
At 465 points and a character, you'd need to put 930 points into allies. At 25% you'd need 3720 point limit. Not too many games are played at that scale!
If you take allies then they have to form a small army adhering to their own composition limits. So if you have 465 points of character your ally contingent needs 930 points in total. As allies are typically capped at 25% of your army allowance you'd need to have a total army size of at least 3720 to include Galruch in an allied contingent.
1:20:00 How is possible that skinwolves dont have "fear" as a special rule? I mean... they're taller than an ogre and much more ferocius and scary. Imagine watching one of these as it transforms from human into a 3 meters tall wolf in the middle of the battle. I would f***ing crap my pants. Is not sassy that a "MONSTRUOUS infantry" dont have "fear" as a rule? Great video as always.
This AJ is a mixed bag for me. WotS is a really cool concept, some of the new magic items are quite interesting, and all the new units are both cool and powerful. On the other hand, Heralds of darkness is a complete failure both in concept and implementation, the magic items that aren't good are unusable, some of the new units are too AoI specific, it drives WoC further into monster mash, and does nothing for armies based on actual Chaos Warriors, which remain the worst part of the entire army list with the exception of the beyond useless warhound handler. The lore is nice, the concept is interesting, but I wish we had got some of the stuff that WoC players have been clamoring for since release, like buffs to Chaos Warriors and the missing marked units and warshrine, mutalith, etc.
Two things 1:20:00 You missed a detail. You get the buff until your next round. YOUR. So. Charge. Get a buff. Opponents turn. Get a NEW buff. Then on your next round both are removed. Also. For the champion challenger. Thw humble Chaos Warrior is perfect here. Give him/her the mark of Khorne, Helm of Many Eyes for 20 pts and a halebard. And maybe an enchanted shield for 5pts. So. You Strike First. 3 attacks. WS5 S5 AP1. If the enemy would survive you have 5+ and one 5++ Or perhaps the shield wont work since you use the halebard. But still. You should attack before anything that is not a Wardancer. What would a small unit with that cost? 120pts? Well worth it to have a huge shot to get turn 1. After you are both Stupid and Frenzied. So not exactly manouverable. But the unit can still do alot of damage against anything smaller than a lord on a dragon.
@@LordMacragge31 Yes. The wolves of the sea is a "norscan army" - not my type, and the Heralds of Darkness has too many constraints for too few benefits. Some magic items are good, but not great (unlike the orcs for example who has much more great items). The funny thing is the best unit in the book is also avaiable for the beastmen.
Lore-wise, Galrauch was a dragon working with the High Elves. In a battle he got possessed by a Lord of Change, which mutated him into what he is now.
Piggy-backing off this comment, when Galrauch was possesed his head and neck split in two.
(And looking at the model you can clearly see they grotesquely split down the middle.)
6th Ed addition I think, from general reading I've done.
Galrauch defeated the greater demon by biting its head off, if I recall correctly. A great victory for the elves who then watched in horror as he began to convulse and mutate with his head and neck eventually splitting in two. You are what you eat!
Just a note, the strength bonus for flails does not key off of charging! It specifically says “A flail’s Strength modifier applies only during the first round of combat”, so it works whether or not you’ve charged. This does make a Berserker champion with flail pretty good for the Wolves special challenge!
EDIT: ah you got that, good
That has me thinking. I was all ‘lawl, Here’s my Cold One knight champ. Enjoy his four attacks and 3+ as.’ It’s not the lock I assumed it was. Hell, I might lose my 40 pt. Model!
@@AP-hv9ll a Cold One Knights champ is probably one of the better bets in the Warrior’s Duel! But with the easy access to flails on Huscarl/Berserker champions (or the Biting Blade on a Warrior champion) they’re not guaranteed to succeed, it’s true
Yes! I hoped You had it in your chaos review and understood it wasnt so. I thought i needed to wait for days for this one!
Heralds of Darkness is the first miss from the arcane journal lists we’ve gotten. They really should have incentivised placing characters with the corresponding marked units to make it different from the less restrictive grand army.
Something like character in unit gets:
Nurgle - re-roll armour saves of 1 on character and +1T in unit.
Slaanesh - first strike on character and perma +1I on unit
Khorne - furious charge on character and unit
Tzeentch - MR to unit and another +1 to casting roll.
Phenomenal coverage 👏
I was so looking forward to the Heralds of Darkness Army of Infamy. I was hoping we'd see something like Chosen on Daemonic Mounts as a new unit in Rare or something to really drive home this terrifying cavalry army, that could additionally let people make Skull Crushers, or Disc Riding Tzeentch guys or whatever with daemonic mount kits. It would solve one of the big issues Chaos Knights/Chosen Knights have of being only 1 Wound each. Instead it truly feels like the team spent all of their time making the Wolves of the Sea and then quickly submitted whatever rough draft they had of the second Army of Infamy they had.
I also have to severely disagree with the love that was being given to the Daemonic Barding item. 35 points for what will amount to at most six WS3, Str4, AP- attacks on the charge is such a huge waste of points. Even against lowly Empire troops, you're looking at about 1 extra Wound on average. 35 points isn't a small mount of points and I just don't think I could ever justify spending that many points on such low threat attacks, especially since this is eating into someone's Magical Item points that could be spent elsewhere.
I'm so glad you guys are belting out content again. Love your work and love the WOC. I hate that I am now going to have to paint marauders.
Some great alternatives out there!
Somehow Warriors of Chaos come out of this with incredible shooting potential and a 3 dragon army at 2k points.
one is lvl4 other lvl2 nice
It’s funny because I’ve been building this list for a month and then when they released the new models I shifted entirely into a spell slinging shooting army with dragons
@@C1umsyJesterwhat does your list look like?
@@vurtne galrauch, 3 exalted sorcerers one with the infernal puppet and diabolical splendor, the others with a spell familiar with one using a lore familiar. And a level 2 warp fire dragon. With the rest of the list you can put into core however you want.
Now you can do two things, one is you run 3 lines of 5 chaos warriors with the mark of tzeentch. Or you can run one long where you give the champion the taskmasters scourge to buff their movement speed by D3 if they pass a leadership test, and the banner called the icon of darkness which provides a -1 to enemies trying to shoot this unit.
This leaves 383 points left, which is enough for 18 forsaken if you want to go that route or you can put in chaos war hounds and skirmishing marauder horsemen or just regular marauders and rush them ahead of your gun line. Because the units are skirmishing enemies attempting to shoot your gun line will suffer -2 to their shots because technically they have LOS through the skirmishers but it counts as being in partial cover so they have that debuff, and if you remember the banner we took on our unit and the Diabloic speldor on our lord enemies suffer a -4 to hitting our gun line. With threats like galrauch, the warp fire dragon pushing down the flanks with your war hounds or horsemen you should be able to pin down any cav trying to shut down your gun line. Keep in mind galrauch has a chance to high roll and shut down a dragon instantly.
But with your 3 sorcerers let’s say you low roll on every single magic roll and you only have the blue fire of tzeentch; one guy is still guaranteed to have that, pillar of fire, and fire ball. That’s 16 shots if you roll all 1’s with a shooting potential of 39 on all 6’s, that is not including their chances to roll other spells from the battle magic category and not including galrauch and the warp fire dragon (I only don’t count them because they have no way of getting guaranteed magic missile attacks but there is a chance for them to£
And that’s the rough idea of the concept, and point values. The last few hundred points are flexible but that’s the list
@@vurtne I would like to say that I tried a list with galrauch and a sorcerer lord with the skull of katam in a shooting block with two other lords, it’s just too many points. Realistically if you want the best gun line you need to cut galrauch and run a demon Prince, a lot more versatile and yoy can make level 2 wizards cast at 4+ and have your sorcerer lord only fail spell casts on double 1’s with an average of 50 hits a turn with magic missiles and having your units flying about. You just can’t justify the skull of katam without it effecting Atleast 2 level 2 wizards which is why in the galrauch list you don’t see that item there
A Demon Prince is Infantry on a 50x50 base. The Bloodskull Pendant could work on that. Exchanging 5 Attacks for up to 4 autohits with S8 and Killing Blow could be worth it. Especially dangerous for monstrous units, like Ogres and Dragon Ogres (there just 3 auto hits), or units that give negative modifiers for To-Hit rolls. A bit situational and not good vs. single models, but might not be bad.
I would argue that you're putting the bloodskull pendant on a sorcerer, actually. The drawback is that you're forfeiting your normal attacks? Not that much of a drawback on a caster. If you are running with your sorcerer lord in a controversial warrior bunker, you can fit both the pendant and whichever arcane items you need in the magic item allowance. It would add a fair bit of CR with the str8 autohits.
@@riddarhjalmar True, but the smaller base size means 3 bases in contact at best. But sure, it is better than the normal 2 Attacks. In combination with assailment spells... maybe?
@@MrMcBaine1 yeah, and with autohit the killing blow is a straight one to six chance. A neat surprise for that enemy character hoping to take out your sorcerer.
Another cracking chat chaps. Love what they’re doing with the WoC lore and narrative in the old world.
The marauder list is just so cool. Thematic and ruleswise it feels like a smash hit.
And then we have the cavalary list. Which feels both bad and boring.
I LIKE the rule of a character with a mark demands a unit with the same mark and vice versa. But it is strictly worse than the Grand Army.
They could atleast have gotten 1 unit of Chosen Knights/1000pts!
I would like the Mark-matching rule better if it came with some kind of bonus for having the marked character lead their unit. That way it’s not just a restriction but something you *want* to play into.
Something like a buff for the first charge of the game; Khorne could give Hatred, Nurgle could give Poison Attacks, Slaanesh Strike First, and Tzeentch could give a random bonus between WS/S/A
@@Swarbie8D
Yeah.
Or just a straight buff as long as you got hero+unit
Khorne = MR
Nurgle = Poison
Tzeentch = flameing magical attacks
Slaanesh = .... armourbane 1?
Whatever.
But maybe the lore wouldnt work for this. We might be too Hung up on gameplay
One unit of chosen knights with a mark, per character with said mark to lead them.
Cool vid, guys!
As a WoC player I'm pretty happy with the journal. Wolves Of The Sea has so much viking flavor it's ridiculous! Heralds and their 33% core is a little underwhelming. Love the theme of a mounted horde, but rules-wise I would have loved to see them be a little bit better. Magic Items are cool. Any weapon looks dumb compared to the Ogre Blade, but there are still some pretty cool options.
I wonder what the new Rohan models would look like ranked up with some spikes and skulls…?
24:10 in the old Hordes of Chaos (6th edition) rulebook Galrauch was a single headed great drake, one of the greatest dragons for the High Elves before eating a greater daemon of Tzeentch, who then possessed the body of Galrauch and gave him 2 heads by ripping his neck in half down the middle (the last bit how I interpet the artwork and old Galrauch model). The old Spirit of Galrauch rules punished the chaos player way harder by giving control of Galrauch to the enemy player for that turn if you double 6'd the LD test! As for clown/circus act...
One thing I feel like noting about the Marauder Chieftain vs the Aspiring Champion: Their base statline is identical. 65pts vs 70pts. Light armour + 6+ ward vs heavy armour + 5+ ward. Ambusher + Warband vs Ensorcelled Weapons. As the points difference is nearly negligible, and their available kit is nearly the same (though the Champion has more mount options), I think their roles are their defining characteristics - the Champion is the stronger combat character, where the Chieftain trades some of that combat prowess for deployment/movement flexibility (and, if you put him in a big brick, ld10 thanks to Warband).
You seem to miss that Mighty Serpent's Scalemail is NOT a magic weapon, so you can combine it with a magic weapon to strike first with it or cancel out strike last with a Great Weapon, unlike The Sword of Swiftness.
Indeed I did miss that! Out live chat pointed it out and I think I might mention it later on?
Amazing deep dive you two!!!
Very good watch, thank ye fellas! My beastmen rejoice at the inclusion of 2 giant spawn
I love that Chaos Knights are undesirable Core choice for Chaos, but are actually miles better than the only viable Core Choice of regular Knights for Empire.
Internal and external balance is rough rough.
Galrauch was a single headed dragon. You can see in the art/model that it's one head split down the middle.
I have to admit this catapulted WoC up in my thinking, just allows so much flavour in the army.
"Marauding our way through it " raah!
I do think there is a place for the war alter though, especially as I bought 2 in preparation for the old world.
So what I've got from this video is, "be who you want to be" and I want to be a dragon! Great overview, guys! Can't wait for this Arcane Journal to release! For CHAOS!
... oh and Conan. I want to be Conan riding a dragon who has dragon friends.
skin wolves get to choose but they have to be engaged in combat to get to choose? Could put a character with Daemonic mount in with them if going open order, caster with mark of nurgle making them t6 potentially?
nope. only same sub type of unit can join skirmisher. skin wolves are monstrous infantry. they could be joined only by a deamon prince without the flying rule..but a dp is also warp spawned e they don't..so he cannot 😛
@@matteodefrancesco1213 that’s why i specified the skin wolves adopting open order, characters must be the same sub type if the formation adopted by the unit is skirmish.
@@Desperate_Measures sorry bad reading. the rule says during the subphase 1.1 when choosed in combat
The arachnarock spider is great with an Amulet of Destiny on it. It's just fricken expensive
So the issue with Grimoire of Ogvold and getting the Lore of Chaos Mark Spells- The Lore of Chaos are not from their chosen Lore, and the Lore of chaos specifies you may "discard one of your randomly generated spells as normal. When they do so they may take either the signature spell of their chosen lore of magic, or the spell that corresponds to their mark of chaos". So when you take the grimoire, you neither randomly generate spells AND you have to take the signature. So no lore of chaos with the grimoire.
I hope the game developes some decent, available dragon counteroptions.
They are plenty of Options for most Armies. A Dragon Lord is NOT invincible but most times you have to expect to hit him more than once
There are not "plenty of options". And usually that "option" is going full gunline or full magic missiles. I would be curious to see what other options you see that I may have missed. Countering it with your own Dragon I don't consider being part of that for obvious reasons.
@@ThePaintedHope I heard there is a dragon slayer sword for lords, is it good or are there any other counter measures? I'm new so apologies if that sounds naive.
You suggested the BSB standing near Galauch to help him with his special rule and any potential stupidity from Gaze of the Gods, but that wouldn't help. The BSB helps allows rerolls of Panic, Rally and Break tests. It doesn't help with Stupidity or Galrauch's special test.
I have to point out to both of you Conan was indeed a pirate for some time and queen on the black coast is up there as the best story by Robert e Howard
imagine a line of 10 knights of tzeentch whith a sorcerer with the deamon forged barding and demonic vigour and vessel successfully cast on them. with diabolic splendour and icon of darkness.
Wilderfiends work perfect for the giant spawn and it’s not that much smaller than the giant chaos spawn
Do Wolves of the Sea get to roll on the Gaze of the Gods table if they capture the standard of a Bretonnian Peasant Unit? They don't get VPs for it, but I think they might still get other benefits...
Pirates! Would vikings maybe be the word
Norsca themed list lets gooo!
khorgorath from AoS fits well on 60x100 for a gigantic spawn of chaos
I thought abort using it. Its pretty cheap because he is in Those starter boxes, right?
mate u just read my mind. For a gigantic spawn of Khorne ofc. Nurgle should be bulkier and more hideus. Slaneesh's thinner, etc.
But yeah, Im totally using Khorgorath for my big spawnny friend
not big enough, regular spawn at best
@@Talonz501 it barely fits on a 50x50 base and hangs over enough that base to base contact would be very hit or miss.
If height is the concern it could be modeled on some high ground.
Still think I’ll it’s a fun model for a khorne marked gigantic spawn - if nothing else it’ll add variety to the gigantic spawns out there. 🤷♂️
Barely fits, so....fits. There are better and bigger options out there imo.
Stupid observation with the Heralds List...
Mercenaries might be able to attach to your main army ("as if drawn from your own army list")...
So tossing a Centigor Chieftan with Slugskin in a block of Nurgle Knights might well be a thing...
Now we're cooking
33:55 Seems the Dagger would have play on a Daemon Prince.
45:26 Rod is a good Ruby Ring. Summoning has AP while Fireball doesn't. You lose some range but you're pushing through more wounds if it goes off.
Summoning is slightly higher casting level than Fireball (and both are Bound level 2?), so might be a little less consistent. Just something to consider.
@@Na_bro_leon fair comment. It's a roll of 7 to cast (vs fireball needing 6) which is a decent spot on the 2D6 bellcurve still. Both will struggle to push through a level 4 dispel but I suppose the fireball has a range advantage for that.
Probably just take both!
I was hoping for a banner that would make Chaos Warriors worth taking.
Some special banners for Heralds of Darkness that are locked to the two tiers would have been cool. One for regular warriors/knights and one for chosen warriors/knights. Could even have them do different things for different marks- since the Muster List for Heralds of Darkness is so light on beneficial special rules to begin with.
@@darthsphincter909and the 33% core requirement for heralds of darkness kills it imo. Should have allowed a unit of chosen knights as core or something, regular knights cost too much.
Only thing I’d say about the marauder tribe chief at 65 points as an ambusher.. wouldn’t you just take two squads of 5 dogs for 60pts instead
Exactly.
No Blue Fire for Warpfire Dragon, he doesn't have Mark of Tzeentch. Only Wind of Chaos.
The warriors and knights in the book are pretty much ripped straight from 6th edition. They had 1 attack and heavy armour, and you could only take 1 unit of chosen per army. It's clear they've gone with a 6th edition vibe.
Currently painting my 3rd dragon
One of my favorite strategy games is Age of Empires 2. I think the best element of that game is how well it does rock-paper-scissors. Every unit shines in at least one specific case and always has at least one hard counter. I don't think there is currently scenario in Old World where ranked infantry performs like a trump card.
In 8th edition, a unit with more ranks was steadfast (aka. stubborn, aka, always break tested on unmodified leadership). I think old world could use a version of steadfast. Perhaps your rank bonus blunts the initiative bonus of chargers, or one fighter from each rank can step up and fight back?
I think step up and fight alone would be enough to start
@@jackrogers5712 I agree that it would be a big step in the right direction. However, I think it needs some form of restraint, so that initiative doesn't get accidentally nerfed. That's why I thought that one 'step up' per rank would be a nice way to buff ranks. I think Old World has tried a bit too hard to be as different from 8th as possible, even though 8th had some awesome features.
@@Obscureminator Maybe -1 on hit rolls for models stepping up and attacking?
@@jackrogers5712 I agree this would be a good start. I'd limit it to Regular & Heavy infantry, and potentially look to limit it further, so for example you'd only get to attack if you've got full rank bonus or maybe you get to step up and attack a number of models up to your current rank bonus. That makes deeper units more effective, which I certainly want to encourage.
Perhaps this needs to be tied to altering marching column. Perhaps to be in marching column you must be narrower than your rank width (so 4 for regular infantry, 3 for heavy) allowing deeper units with less frontage to work without losing ranks.
I'd also tone down linehammer by capping the number of models not in base contact that can attack. Maybe limit it to the double the rank bonus too? So units with 1 rank can get 2 models out of base contact attacking, one with 3 ranks could have up to 6. That would kill linehammer and make large blocks of infantry more effective.
FBIGO is part of the problem, as cavalry just gets to keep charging with lances each turn. A stubborn rule where you dont fall back or give ground would be handy. Infantry with spears in particular should get bonuses against cavalry. That would help as a counter, because mainly spears are pretty terrible currently.
Okay but...anyone has any good ideas for all the marauder oriented models? I wanted to make a marauder army for a loooong time.
Mighty Serpents Scale Mail being more expensive is probably because it’s not a weapon, and it’s costed so you cannot give a Chaos Lord that and an Ogre Blade…
19:38 fanstatic pause screen
I noticed the painted skin wolves pictures appraring after the square based episode. The contrasting skin and fur colour looks really weird on the model now.
Are the chisen chariots exclusive to the Herolds list? Or can they be taken 0-1 in a grand army too?
Exclusifff
Watching this and writing chaos lists...
===
Dragons?!?!?! [1996 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Warriors of Chaos
===
++ Characters [997 pts] ++
Galrauch [465 pts]
- Wicked Claws
- Dark Fire of Chaos
- Fumes of Contagion
- Full plate armour (Draconic scales)
- Dark Magic
Chaos Lord [532 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- Shield
- Mark of Chaos [Mark of Khorne]
- General
- Chaos Dragon
- Sword of Might
- Favour of the Gods
- Poisonous Slime
++ Core Units [624 pts] ++
5 Chaos Knights [173 pts]
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- Mark of Khorne
- Champion
- Standard bearer
- Musician
5 Chaos Knights [173 pts]
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- Mark of Khorne
- Champion
- Standard bearer
- Musician
5 Chaos Knights [173 pts]
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- Mark of Khorne
- Champion
- Standard bearer
- Musician
5 Chaos Warhounds [35 pts]
- Claws and fangs (Hand weapons)
- Vanguard
5 Chaos Warhounds [35 pts]
- Claws and fangs (Hand weapons)
- Vanguard
5 Chaos Warhounds [35 pts]
- Claws and fangs (Hand weapons)
- Vanguard
++ Rare Units [375 pts] ++
Warpfire Dragon [375 pts]
- Wicked Claws
- Warpfire Blast
- Full plate armour (Draconic scales)
---
Created with "Old World Builder"
[old-world-builder.com]
Comment for the comment god.
can you use Galrauch as ALLY? if he can be, you can use him, like in a Chorfs army, with 5 dogs.
you cannot take a chaos lord or a sorcerer on dragon as ally, because you don't have to points to add another troop
At 465 points and a character, you'd need to put 930 points into allies. At 25% you'd need 3720 point limit. Not too many games are played at that scale!
@@doubleskulls isn't he a character?
If you take allies then they have to form a small army adhering to their own composition limits. So if you have 465 points of character your ally contingent needs 930 points in total. As allies are typically capped at 25% of your army allowance you'd need to have a total army size of at least 3720 to include Galruch in an allied contingent.
@@doubleskulls 25% of 2000 points is 500
@@doubleskulls oh, the proportion
WoC bringing enough shooting to put Dorfs to shame = mass extinction of Dorfs incoming.
"you cant just have constant payoffs! thats weird" 😆🤣😆
1:20:00 How is possible that skinwolves dont have "fear" as a special rule? I mean... they're taller than an ogre and much more ferocius and scary. Imagine watching one of these as it transforms from human into a 3 meters tall wolf in the middle of the battle. I would f***ing crap my pants.
Is not sassy that a "MONSTRUOUS infantry" dont have "fear" as a rule?
Great video as always.
They dont transform though, theyre trapped as wolves
For the love of god please update the podcast feed
The mounted faction feels lazy and half baked
If I remember correctly, none of the Armies of infamy can have allies. Seems to be a privilege for Grand armies😅
The core allowance for the cav list should have just been a third. Still annoying, but at least it's thematic, being 666 points in a 2k game.
This AJ is a mixed bag for me. WotS is a really cool concept, some of the new magic items are quite interesting, and all the new units are both cool and powerful. On the other hand, Heralds of darkness is a complete failure both in concept and implementation, the magic items that aren't good are unusable, some of the new units are too AoI specific, it drives WoC further into monster mash, and does nothing for armies based on actual Chaos Warriors, which remain the worst part of the entire army list with the exception of the beyond useless warhound handler.
The lore is nice, the concept is interesting, but I wish we had got some of the stuff that WoC players have been clamoring for since release, like buffs to Chaos Warriors and the missing marked units and warshrine, mutalith, etc.
Wrong. Chaos didn't win. The skaven did.
Skaven are chaos though.
Two things
1:20:00
You missed a detail.
You get the buff until your next round.
YOUR.
So. Charge. Get a buff.
Opponents turn. Get a NEW buff.
Then on your next round both are removed.
Also. For the champion challenger.
Thw humble Chaos Warrior is perfect here.
Give him/her the mark of Khorne, Helm of Many Eyes for 20 pts and a halebard.
And maybe an enchanted shield for 5pts.
So. You Strike First. 3 attacks. WS5 S5 AP1. If the enemy would survive you have 5+ and one 5++
Or perhaps the shield wont work since you use the halebard. But still. You should attack before anything that is not a Wardancer.
What would a small unit with that cost? 120pts? Well worth it to have a huge shot to get turn 1.
After you are both Stupid and Frenzied. So not exactly manouverable. But the unit can still do alot of damage against anything smaller than a lord on a dragon.
I would not take a unit of garbage warriors in my valuable special choices just to fight in that challenge.
So you could take the same one twice? T6?
Good vid but heck man noone wants to see a dude vaping…
Chad, no one cares...
The only great unit is the gigantic chaos spawn in this book in my opinion. This arcane journal a bit of a letdown for me.
kek
Did you just wanted a book to buff the grand army
@@LordMacragge31 Yes. The wolves of the sea is a "norscan army" - not my type, and the Heralds of Darkness has too many constraints for too few benefits. Some magic items are good, but not great (unlike the orcs for example who has much more great items).
The funny thing is the best unit in the book is also avaiable for the beastmen.
@@Silverchainer well then don't buy the book, the journals aren't meant to be an upgrade for the existing rosters, they are new ways to play
The khornate huskarls with flails are the bees knees