i too just had this revelation. it's not that the room doesn't affect it, it's that the positive pressure zone necessarily exists in the local proximity of the subwoofer. Therefore, put yourself in the local proximity of the subwoofer (or vice versa) and you should then exist in the only spot in the room where there are no modal peaks and dips.
Wow Paul, I've spent more time and effort screwing around moving my sub, (just shy of 100lbs), playing with eq and the whole bit. Saw this video last week, ordered a 35ft rca cable and planted that sucker about 2 inches behind my seat, and holy hell problem solved, perfect bass from every song, and consistent thru movies, thanks so much for all your wisdom, once again you have improved my listening experience
The cleanest, most satisfying bass I've ever heard was from the stereo system in my Dodge Dakota truck. I had a Pioneer head unit and amps, and Boston Acoustic speakers and crossovers. I had 2 x 10" subs in separate small, sealed enclosures right behind the seat. They delivered such smooth, accurate bass; it was so satisfying. I also had a powerful 4-channel amp running the mids/highs in the factory speaker locations. To this day that system was the best car audio system I've ever heard. I also had treated the entire cab of the vehicle with dynamat in all 4 doors, the ceiling, and the floor. I even had a double layer behind the subs in the back. Sadly the engine took a big 💩on me and I had to take out the system and sell the truck. 😢 I used the speakers and subs in my first home theater /2-channel diy projects
I've been using near-field sub for about a year now, not because I wanted to use them near-field but simply because that's where I found that they sounded best (compared to various other locations I've tried). I am regularly astounded by how good they sound in that location just a couple feet from me compared to locations farther away. All the locations I had identified as being "good" were based on the subwoofer crawl. But the nearfield location wasn't just "good", I think it's "great."
Been nearfield subwoofing for 15yrs at least. Came up with idea measuring my Velodynes close mic'd... you present the native, big round 12dB/octave response. I'd mic from the main listening position, then close mic... fascinating seeing the result. Evidence of boundary and vessel gain strips away, you're left with the big smooth round response, 12dB roll off down low. - First benefit, less room, more native sub response - Next benefit is greater headroom due to proximity - Perhaps the biggest benefit is a visceral tactility that accompanies the experience. The physics involved affect the very near-field compression ... the region within a driver diameter in front of the driver. It can elicit a spectacular bass textural experience like non other. Caveats include balance, without careful balance via level adjust it diminishes the experience. - there's a fourth reason why it's so satisfying but it's somewhat in depth ... maybe next time
Very interesting and informative! One thing about being an audiophile is... No matter how good my system sounds, I am always thinking of ways to make it sound better!
I have 2 tiny REL T zeros nest to my listening chair and I love them. I never thought of calling then 'near field sub'. Steve Guttenberg suggested this idea.
Me personally, when I experimented by placing my stereo rel T5I's near the rear corners (behind my couch) in my small 13 x 11.5 ft living room, I was able to pick up on the distortion. And BTW using high quality shielded chord shawline sub leads (RCA's) After reaching out to Rel acoustics they advised me to position them back to where I originally had them placed (front corners behind stereos) now they sound wonderful again. Near field is not for me.
Very interesting, so were they at ear level or on the ground behind the couch? Did they have ports or radiators? Were they orientated towards you or sitting transverse? Would you need some kind of digital phase adjustment to run two so close together? Is the power/size of subwoofer needed for a given room size different for near field use?
The point of near field is that its so close that you don't need to think about all that my guy. I have a not so good subwoofer just a lil bit at an arms length away from my listening position and I have to focus my brain into knowing that there is a subwoofer near my feet or else I will always think that my main speakers can somehow have great bass
Stumbled on this when building my home theater with rear subs. Like how could you not at-least try listening to something in "everything-on mode?" HOLY SHIT! Never went back. You dial them (way) down so they almost breathe on you.
Excellent video. I picked up an older fostex 6” sealed monitor for cheap and I’m crazy impressed enough to think about one more for surround instead of just desktop. Nope, they don’t “get down”, like a normal home taster sub, but I sure enjoy the tightness and quickness in the music I listen to.
I just installed super-cheap LG 80W passive sub in near field that I had lying around for years. I didn't want to use that sub for anything but then it struck me! This LG sub is ideal as it's very narrow (like 15cm) and even with room constraints I could install it behind the couch without moving the couch too far from the wall (we don't have dedicated room). Wasn't expecting much but boy it really adds to the experience (so far only tested with low volume as it's night here in Europe so didn't want to wake up my wife). I connected it to the bass shaker amp so it has same delay. Even this small sucker with 80W (I think it's 6") can play some deep stuff (25-30Hz no issues) so can watch at night with sub on. And for music it's super quick! Love it! I hope that at higher volumes it will still sound this good, we'll see..
Due to lack of space, I have no option but to put a subwoofer at the back of my bed in my bedroom syetm and it sounds amazing! Thanks to the quiestioneer and also to you Paul for clarification. 👍👍👍👍
I did that with my truck, placed the 8 inch sub on the front passenger seat facing the dashboard/windshield. Sub at 30 hertz and completely changed the output, to the smoothness of the bass notes were blended throughout the truck.
I have all JLAudio, speakers, amps. I like their products. Home audio should have the same audio adjustments as car audio amplifiers and car head units have. You can fine tune everything with the software from a laptop. There are a multitude of different audio settings you can customize. Those powerful JLAUDIO amplifier’s can easily be hooked up to any home stereo and speaker systems, from 2 ohm to 8 ohm settings. With the JLAudio software hooked into the amplifier you can create the audio you want instead of the limiting factors in regular home audio.
Funny, I did just this earlier today before I even saw this video. Wife and kids were gone so I put my single sub about 3 feet in front of me, speakers probably 8 feet away in their normal setup. Dialed the sub in a little...it was a great experience, loved it. Just had to hide the sub away again before the wifey returned home lol
I set my subwoofer below my desk of my desktop system. I didn’t like my sub pointing toward my ankles. So, I purchased a guitar amplifier stand that has a 30* upward angle. My RSL 10s MKII fits perfectly along with the stand position to point at my lower chest and belly region.
I have an RSL sub next to, and slightly behind my couch. It is paired with a pair of KEF LS-50’s. The gain is set very low and the bass is fast and clean. It integrates seamlessly with my mains, which are about 7 feet from my listening position. Perfect!
wow i have the same kind of setup, will try this tomorrow with my kef kc62! Really interesting. I was kinda bummed before that I bought 'a long subwoofer cable' to fool around with the placement, and then it turns out the best spot is left of the left speaker... lol But hearing these comments; i might need that length anyways :)
@@Kah0ona I had some room gain issues that bothered me. The bass never sounded clean and tight. I moved the sub and it’s amazing how good it sounds now. The key is to keep the sub gain as low as you can- the sub disappears and all the low frequency energy seems to come from the mains.
i built in 2 X 10" down-firing subs into my listening chair. rear ported. You can barely hear it in the next room, hardly any bass in the SAME room, yet...sitting in my perfect sub-chair.. its what i've been listening to for more than 20 yrs :) welcome to the club!
It sounds like it's similar to how I've set up mine (16" though) next to my couch. I started that experiment because I wanted to see what would happen if I chose a near field placement because that would also create the best aesthetic in the room (it's very easy to make a room ugly from an interior design perspective with hifi gear) and it just worked great. I immediately liked the sound and the measurements were really good so I kept the placement. It's very interesting to hear a similar idea from people in a company like this so I look forward to hearing more details of how his set up was.
I'll try that. Did it years ago with cheap small subs. But that was out of necessity. I've got two twelve's, I'll give that a go. Thanks for all the hard work.
Love near field sub especially in the tiny space I have for a home theater. Right behind my couch and with the proper distance number in the receiver it time aligns with my L and R towers that have a 12" woofer in them as well. Provides a semi-even bubble of bass from the towers and sub but the added benefit of more tactical response since the sub is only a foot and some inches from my main seat. I'm only running a simple polk 12" sub so not much it can handle but with it being near field it doesn't have to run as hot to get great performance. If you're running 1 sub or a budget sub like me I think near field is the best way to go.
So these subs were mounted on stands at ear level a foot behind you? Also, how much separation was the between the subs? Definitely want to try that out but want to understand how they were set up.
I love your videos Paul, but I’ve been depressed about your decision to make the FR30’s in China I haven’t been listening in a while… This was good and fun so I’m glad I watched. Please look at some way to make the future speakers here in NA/USA! MISCO Speakers might be able to work with you… Did you ask?
Once I found an X3 sub setup I can't go back. front,rear,and at/under seating. Currently running an 8" on top of a 12" at 2/3 from left, another 12" under my main row of seating and a dual 10" in the rear. Tuning and getting all in phase was the interesting part but for home theater(once tuned) nothing else compares. Have had this set up for the last few months now on the new system and feeling /hearing every level and frequency is incredible as it is meant to be. Now on another note though your ambient listening zones( non main seating areas) are hit or miss as it is all tuned to one area. Did not work well for just turn on the tunes and hang out until I figured out which subs to turn on/off to get my desired ambient listening environment.
Ended up with nearfield sub in my home theater. I must admit it's to small a room for the task, so small the low wavelength / frequencys bounce the walls and short out. Many hours used and a lot of measurements are made, but the nearfield sub placement ended up as the best solution in my small room.
Yea sure we do this in PA loads with monitoring systems. You don't want to inject loads of bass into the environment and getting into the mics or causing trouble. There are even "kicker" subwoofer systems which inject the musician's body with mechanical vibration via their chair, or their feet. The physical experience of bass is really important, and you need to shake the floor, and hit the listener in the kidneys.
Curios…it works for the listening position, but how does it work for the rest of the seats in the room? (I have 2 15” velodynes… one in corner and one behind the couch.where we sit…. Ill be sticking w that set up as it sounds and feels great to me)
In the case of my setup, the REL S/510 is both in the near field (about 8 inches from my right elbow) and in one of the two optimal positions in the room. Can't ever hear sound coming from the sub; always seems to emanate from the mains (Klipsch Forte IV) which are also in near field (approximately 6' from the listening position).
What models where the 18" subs ? I would love to know ! I have a dayton 18" ultimax, nice sub. But probably nowhere near as good as what he has in his home
Actually that's the way I had mine set up was behind my couch and then because of my design change in the room I decided to put it in a place where. Let's try it again I built my home theater room where a bay windows, and I put insulating foam and fiberboard on the windows to make sure that the base would not rattle the window. But if you go outside while you're playing some loud music of course it almost seems like you can hear more bass outside your house then you can on the inside. So I think I am going to actually I'm sure I'm going to set it up that I have my subwoofers behind my couch again thank you for the inspiration
I remember when the movie "Earthquake" destroyed Los Angeles, on the screen only. That movie had a sound track that shock the theater. I remember reading that the Universal Pictures sent structural engineers around to check if the theaters could handle the bass in the sound track. How much bass does it take to shake a building....earth quakes have been doing it a long time with out a sub-woofer.
Real Quakes, often lack any Sound. You FEEL the vibrations, rather than Hear anything (thought, you might hear things shake and fall). The best way to create that kind of force, is a Bass Shaker transducer... which is like a subwoofer, with an attached heavy mass... without an air-moving Cone. Two 15 watt bass shakers under your office chair... (at max power) will be so violent that your eyes wont be able to see the TV picture in front of you. It will be a total blur... due to your entire body vibrating so much. If you are speaking about the specially designed speaker boxes that were used for amplifying normal woofers for use in those theatres... Ive heard them used in a night club. They are awful. The bass is muddy and highly distorted. Loudness alone, does not equate to being "Better". Ive been to an outdoor Metallica concert... where when I was like a football field away from the stage... and It felt like I was getting pounded in the chest by a 50 lb sledgehammer, on every bass thump. Far more clean, precise, and powerful... than those low qualify horn box speaker designs.
@@uhfch2358 Yep, after Earthquake, was The Battle for Midway.. war drama, then my fave, the thriller; Rollercoaster... with first ever front row high quality shots of California Magic Mountain and the first modern looping rollercoaster... For a coaster fan, and HiFi enthusiast, it checked the boxes. Killer front row footage for the era. I mean a rollercoaster serial bomber film with subs, what else would you want!
😁 back in the day, I had four subs in my work truck and two subs (sound stream )in my passenger van BOY …do I miss those days😊 but someday I hope to get to Colorado to hear your system 🎶🤗😍😍😍
I wonder if thats allot of the appeal to very high end near field studio monitors like the Guzauski-Swist gs3a's that Mick Guzauski mixed Daft Punk's Random Access Memories on. Stereo subs of such high caliber that close have to be incredible
In my study, where I have my computers & are watching this, a quite small room (posh houses probably have larger toilets) I have a no-name sub (from a council hard rubbish run) that is almost arms length away, and the bass is beautiful. On the other hand, in my loungroom I have another sub, that just sucks (usually turned off) - about all it's good for is to say to visitors, yes I have a sub, it's over there - mind you I cannot place the speakers or sub as per any guide, they go where there is room, in the corners etc. I get way more enjoyment with near field in my study.
Bass is so often considered to have to be loud, I suppose even Paul's remarks in this vid are amongst those lines.But I have experienced that bass starts to sound amazing, when it is 'driven' delicate. Furthermore, coupling of cones, might be happening, but large woofers sound better, but not to drive them loud. They need to produce volume at a low level. Might that be 'moving air' in stead of 'punching air', I don't know. But such speakers will not be partner proof. Everything is a trade off....
I have mu sub 2 meters away for me, 0,5 meters from the walls of sidewalls, its 13,8 inch Arendal 1723 1s, the best sub i exer owned, really good for music,not slow at all very tight and good texure in bass,
You're not alone, many enthusiasts believe that... but it doesn't work that way. Think headphones... my Westone UM50pro InEars, faithfully reproduce down into the bottom octaves... in a sealed ear canal, adjacent to my eardrums. Proximity and/or smaller room volumes are actually quite beneficial due to both vessel gain, and a shift upward of the fundamental mode, or first mode. (dictated by the room's longest dimension). The wavelengths of freqs reproduced in a small room, behave differently depending on their length. There's four regions of behavior. The Pressure region, is below the freq that has a wavelength of twice the longest length of the room. This results in Pressure Vessel Gain (PVG), the scenario whereby the longest dimension of the room can no longer support full propagation of the waveform. At this point, the normal propagation transitions to pressurization. It changes from a normal cyclic propagation, to pressurization because the wavelengths are too big for the space. The frequency at which this occurs is approximately the point whereby half the wavelength of a given frequency is equal to the rooms longest dimension. So, a 20 hz frequency has a wavelength 56.5 feet. So half of that, 28.25 feet, is the point of transition. Any frequency below that point pressurizes the room, and any frequency above that point propagates freely. So in this room that's approximately 28 feet in the longest dimension, from 20 hz downward, the room gives back acoustically. At this frequency, the results are a gain in acoustic pressures in the room that grows as the frequency decreases. This acoustic support reciprocity, is theoretically 12db per octave. The percentage of the 12 db/octave gain one achieves, entirely depends on the integrity of the boundary walls and surfaces. If it was the theoretical concrete bunker, a full 12db/octave boost would occur. Typically, gains somewhere between 6-10 db octave are commonplace. Next region is where the resonances dominate. Room modes, etc. Then the transition region, then above that freq is the specular region, whereby the propagation energy behaves ray like... or billiard ball like. I know that's a lot. A portion of that was a copy/paste answering a similiar question.
Nothing new. Been around for well over a decade publically... I've implemented nearfield for 15yrs, AVS Forum has tons of nearfield acolytes, many threads and builds documenting it for the past decade or so.
@@mickyd3 Simply sharing there's a mammoth amount of info available for those interested, and AVS is the place to find it. It's great, a decade or so of detailed discussion, well documented w/images, etc.
@@FOH3663 I haven't looked at that website in years because I moved back over to 2 channel audio. You are right, there is an abundance of great information on that forum. Many ideas can be shared between the 2 channel forums and Surround channel forums to improve everyone's listening experience. Thanks
I usually didn't have very powerfull subs but running around the room with it in my hand in noticed that it sounds best behind couch, i always thinking thats so wrong but i like it 😆 so i was on to something without knowing it at the time
Paul, I imagine that you enjoyed your near field experience with Darren Myers' near field sub woofer set-up. But is it like having too much salt on your fries? Your initial reaction is "Wow!". But after some time, you realize that this is not ideal? Did Darren's stereo accurately represent the recorded music? Did Darren's stereo present the bass with realism, the same as you would expect to hear from vocals or brass instruments? My goal for listening to music is to not take notice of the stereo, at all. My goal for listening to music is to be transported to the room where the musicians created their sonic work of art. Did Darren's bass enhancements do that? Did Darren's bass enhancements present you with the artist's performance? Or did Darren's bass enhancements become part of the performance? You mentioned "cleanest bass I ever heard". I take that to mean "effortless". But was it the right amount of "clean"?
Hmm, near field subwoofers wouldn't get rid of room modes, but perhaps having them so close would move all the peaks and nulls away from the listening position?
@@Harald_Reindl That's true. Usually we think about sizing subwoofers to energize a whole room, with the peaks and nulls that come with it. With a low volume near field setup, room sound would be significantly diminished
Modes exist regardless of volume. In this case, it's simple proximity. A measurement mic at the listening position, capturing a sub elsewhere in the room. Result; big modal peaks and huge cancelation nulls. Take the measurement mic and place it directly close mic'd in front of the driver. Result; a big smooth gentle arc response, not unlike a speedbump cross-section... free from peaks/dips. Essentially, the inherent native free field response of the sub will be the measurement. The nearfield SPLs are so high relative to room sound, such that the native response way overwhelms the room's negative influence.
If one are gona test Subs in near field in a home theater. How high can the subs be crossed over ? Can we go to 100 - 120hz X-over with speakers ? Today I have my subs up front. And after a lot of posisjon testing, i had to go for a placement where the subs had somewhat Equal response and have my svs eq1 do frequency response corrections (no danger, my subs have plenty headroom for that). Never tested near field, so wondering how high x-overs will work
in stereo i have crossed subwoofers up to 200hz with great result, but you will need to set a highpass to the main speakers at about 200 also, and some peq to even things out. i even did 2000hz for a while, tweeters directly with a 10" subwoofers, it actually sounded pretty fun for a few weeks.
Kind of funny that the audiophiles are now using methods right out of the car audio basshead's playbook, albeit with slightly different goals. Yup, a pair of subs all up in your face (back?) can sound amazing, with the added benefit of being able to run them at lower levels.
Not really what he meant actually. Nearfield doesn't mean enclosure space. Car audio generally cannot be hifi due to the vibration, noise level and small space and close reflecting material. More like a headphone concept.
I've driven a Chevy van for the last 30+ years. I run two MTX's with 10's, 4" mids and horn tweeters in boxes in the back and a 12" sub between the seats. Kind of sets the bar high for my home system to hit that kind of bass.
imagine thinking someone is so brilliant for thinking of this! perhaps i should quit building ships and start designing audio systems lol I have always setup my systems this way.. i have a pair of yamaha NS-1000m's with 2 dayton 15" subs under the coffee table
4 18’s?? If that does not impress then I don’t know what will. Now.. take just two 10” subs, put them in a properly built T-Line tuned to 20Hz and you will want to eliminate those 18’s. 😉
Nice Gotta love a well executed T.L. But... you know it takes nearly 16 10"s to equal the cone area of those four 18"s? Just implement a proper T.L. with the 18"s.. ;)
@@FOH3663 I know but I’ve felt how just two 10’s in a T-line tuned to about 20Hz can shake my body. I’ve seen many setups with 18’s and anything lower than 30hz is just noise due to the enclosure or / and tuning. Sometimes it’s just a matter of taste and how low you want to go.
@@Bassotronics Me too, I've heard my share of mediocre LF. To attain low distortion, realistic playback levels at 30hz and below, isn't easy. Every octave in extension requires a quadrupling of capability. I've got a quad array of 18"s in my attic mounted Infinite Baffle subwoofer, four 15"s from a pair of Seaton SubMersives. All DSP aligned, transparently, across both the time and freq domain. Currently, my mains are set up like monitors, whereby I have two different systems set up together. L-R, and my L-C-R, for media consumption and mix evaluations. But my LCRs are double 12"s, so I've got 6-12"s time aligned with the 8 subs... so I've got a lot of headroom via low distortion, high SPL peak capability. Back to T.L.s... they can do magic, you're absolutely right.
I haven't heard many subs in 18" woofer size but I'd expect that you can build pretty fast ones if you do it right. I'm at 16" and I don't have any lack of speed, even to the point of a hifi reviewer once calling the model almost too fast because he was used to hearing some more delay in the bass on one track (which is kind of a nonsensical statement since it means that he's used to something that wasn't in the recording). I think Darren has built his own so that makes it even harder to say how they perform.
@@richardsmith2721 There's multiple elements at play. Typical big, long stroke drivers have a higher inductance, ... large diameter voice coil with high Xmax has a lot of inductance. Those drivers are fine down in the bottom octaves, but the upper octave, say the punch region 50hz to 100hz, the inductance hump impedes it's speed and performance. Low inductance or controlled inductance motors perform much better in the upper end of the sub range. Example include pro audio limited stroke drivers or trick, small batch motors like the old TC Sounds 5400, 5100. Anyway, subjectively experiencing slow muddy bass can be driver settling time, excessive LF room decay from inadequate bass trapping. Ideally, you want that initial bass hit, fast decay... so the listener can experience the NEXT bass hit clearly delineated. Another element of perceived "slow bass", is poor time alignment between the subs and the mains... it's critical that the broadband pulse, that hits all the drivers individual ranges, it's critical that the wavelaunch from each driver's energy, propagates outward and hits the listener as a coherent wavefront. When intact, the simultaneous mids and highs flesh out the leading edge of the bass impact. Another bass speed "diminisher", is dynamic compression, magnetic but primarily thermal. A woofer's resonant frequency, combined with it's electrical impedance resonance, can pair to elicit "fast bass" perception. At impedance peak, say 50hz, essentially all the current transfers to motion. Whereas elsewhere in the range a portion of current is heat loss. There's additional factors, too. Big bass speed factors; Inductance Time alignment Bass trapping Driver settling Dynamics compression The only direct affect of driver mass is sensitivity. I know, that's a lot. I hope it helps... there's a lot of bass mythology out there.
Nothing new here. This arrangement may be great for movie and game explosions etc. but not so good for music. Placing a sub right behind your seat causes the seat to vibrate and this is felt by your body. This introduces issues with resonances in your seat. Worth a try but may become irritating with some music.
Well, my thoughts are they are called "subwoofers" because they are intended to produce sound below what we can hear, so "sub" 20Hz (so, boosting the "feel" more than the "sound"). More realistically they should be used to produce sound below what the main speakers are competent at. As I understand it the PS Audio FR30's are good to 30Hz, so there's no need to reinforce base above that. I haven't heard a lot of other people's sound systems, but my opinion is (from the few I have heard and comments people have made) that many boost the sound too high for realism. They aren't using them to fill in missing base, they are using them to boost base beyond what is natural. All good if that's your personal taste, but I think if you're looking for a more natural replication of live music adjusting your subs to not produce sound higher in the range is often more appropriate.
@@Bannockburn111 My interpretation of subwoofer is "below woofer" which means where your mid woofer stops thats where the sub woofer comes in. And a woofer probably rarely work well below 50hz anyway if its also decent on the higher parts. Common is people refering to subs as bringing ambience into the room. The sounds you get from being in a big hall.
@@bingoberra18: The term I like to use is "Floor". As one turns the volume up, you can hear the floor and room size of the studio or recording space...🎧
Does Darren live in the middle of a huge ranch somewhere? 😂😂😂.... Why twin 18" drivers ? One single 1500watt 18" would surely demolish any sofa at that range ...
i too just had this revelation.
it's not that the room doesn't affect it, it's that the positive pressure zone necessarily exists in the local proximity of the subwoofer.
Therefore, put yourself in the local proximity of the subwoofer (or vice versa) and you should then exist in the only spot in the room where there are no modal peaks and dips.
Wow Paul, I've spent more time and effort screwing around moving my sub, (just shy of 100lbs), playing with eq and the whole bit.
Saw this video last week, ordered a 35ft rca cable and planted that sucker about 2 inches behind my seat, and holy hell problem solved, perfect bass from every song, and consistent thru movies, thanks so much for all your wisdom, once again you have improved my listening experience
The cleanest, most satisfying bass I've ever heard was from the stereo system in my Dodge Dakota truck. I had a Pioneer head unit and amps, and Boston Acoustic speakers and crossovers. I had 2 x 10" subs in separate small, sealed enclosures right behind the seat. They delivered such smooth, accurate bass; it was so satisfying. I also had a powerful 4-channel amp running the mids/highs in the factory speaker locations. To this day that system was the best car audio system I've ever heard. I also had treated the entire cab of the vehicle with dynamat in all 4 doors, the ceiling, and the floor. I even had a double layer behind the subs in the back. Sadly the engine took a big 💩on me and I had to take out the system and sell the truck. 😢
I used the speakers and subs in my first home theater /2-channel diy projects
I've been using near-field sub for about a year now, not because I wanted to use them near-field but simply because that's where I found that they sounded best (compared to various other locations I've tried). I am regularly astounded by how good they sound in that location just a couple feet from me compared to locations farther away. All the locations I had identified as being "good" were based on the subwoofer crawl. But the nearfield location wasn't just "good", I think it's "great."
Agree!
Thanks Paul - you should do a video walking through these two set ups, that would be very interesting
Been nearfield subwoofing for 15yrs at least.
Came up with idea measuring my Velodynes close mic'd... you present the native, big round 12dB/octave response.
I'd mic from the main listening position, then close mic... fascinating seeing the result.
Evidence of boundary and vessel gain strips away, you're left with the big smooth round response, 12dB roll off down low.
- First benefit, less room, more native sub response
- Next benefit is greater headroom due to proximity
- Perhaps the biggest benefit is a visceral tactility that accompanies the experience. The physics involved affect the very near-field compression ... the region within a driver diameter in front of the driver.
It can elicit a spectacular bass textural experience like non other.
Caveats include balance, without careful balance via level adjust it diminishes the experience.
- there's a fourth reason why it's so satisfying but it's somewhat in depth ... maybe next time
Very interesting and informative! One thing about being an audiophile is... No matter how good my system sounds, I am always thinking of ways to make it sound better!
Kind of surprised no one brought up audiophile car audio. High end car audio is 2.1 near field. A well tuned car system will have amazing subbass.
I have 2 tiny REL T zeros nest to my listening chair and I love them. I never thought of calling then 'near field sub'. Steve Guttenberg suggested this idea.
What speakers are you using with the RELs? Thanks
Me personally, when I experimented by placing my stereo rel T5I's near the rear corners (behind my couch) in my small 13 x 11.5 ft living room, I was able to pick up on the distortion. And BTW using high quality shielded chord shawline sub leads (RCA's) After reaching out to Rel acoustics they advised me to position them back to where I originally had them placed (front corners behind stereos) now they sound wonderful again.
Near field is not for me.
Very interesting, so were they at ear level or on the ground behind the couch? Did they have ports or radiators? Were they orientated towards you or sitting transverse? Would you need some kind of digital phase adjustment to run two so close together? Is the power/size of subwoofer needed for a given room size different for near field use?
The point of near field is that its so close that you don't need to think about all that my guy. I have a not so good subwoofer just a lil bit at an arms length away from my listening position and I have to focus my brain into knowing that there is a subwoofer near my feet or else I will always think that my main speakers can somehow have great bass
Stumbled on this when building my home theater with rear subs. Like how could you not at-least try listening to something in "everything-on mode?" HOLY SHIT! Never went back. You dial them (way) down so they almost breathe on you.
Excellent video. I picked up an older fostex 6” sealed monitor for cheap and I’m crazy impressed enough to think about one more for surround instead of just desktop. Nope, they don’t “get down”, like a normal home taster sub, but I sure enjoy the tightness and quickness in the music I listen to.
I just installed super-cheap LG 80W passive sub in near field that I had lying around for years. I didn't want to use that sub for anything but then it struck me! This LG sub is ideal as it's very narrow (like 15cm) and even with room constraints I could install it behind the couch without moving the couch too far from the wall (we don't have dedicated room). Wasn't expecting much but boy it really adds to the experience (so far only tested with low volume as it's night here in Europe so didn't want to wake up my wife). I connected it to the bass shaker amp so it has same delay. Even this small sucker with 80W (I think it's 6") can play some deep stuff (25-30Hz no issues) so can watch at night with sub on. And for music it's super quick! Love it! I hope that at higher volumes it will still sound this good, we'll see..
Due to lack of space, I have no option but to put a subwoofer at the back of my bed in my bedroom syetm and it sounds amazing! Thanks to the quiestioneer and also to you Paul for clarification. 👍👍👍👍
I did that with my truck, placed the 8 inch sub on the front passenger seat facing the dashboard/windshield. Sub at 30 hertz and completely changed the output, to the smoothness of the bass notes were blended throughout the truck.
I have all JLAudio, speakers, amps. I like their products. Home audio should have the same audio adjustments as car audio amplifiers and car head units have. You can fine tune everything with the software from a laptop. There are a multitude of different audio settings you can customize. Those powerful JLAUDIO amplifier’s can easily be hooked up to any home stereo and speaker systems, from 2 ohm to 8 ohm settings. With the JLAudio software hooked into the amplifier you can create the audio you want instead of the limiting factors in regular home audio.
Three quarters of the way through this video I got on the SVS website and ordered a wireless sub control system to give this a try.
How did it work out?
Funny, I did just this earlier today before I even saw this video. Wife and kids were gone so I put my single sub about 3 feet in front of me, speakers probably 8 feet away in their normal setup. Dialed the sub in a little...it was a great experience, loved it. Just had to hide the sub away again before the wifey returned home lol
I set my subwoofer below my desk of my desktop system.
I didn’t like my sub pointing toward my ankles. So, I purchased a guitar amplifier stand that has a 30* upward angle.
My RSL 10s MKII fits perfectly along with the stand position to point at my lower chest and belly region.
I have an RSL sub next to, and slightly behind my couch. It is paired with a pair of KEF LS-50’s. The gain is set very low and the bass is fast and clean. It integrates seamlessly with my mains, which are about 7 feet from my listening position. Perfect!
wow i have the same kind of setup, will try this tomorrow with my kef kc62! Really interesting. I was kinda bummed before that I bought 'a long subwoofer cable' to fool around with the placement, and then it turns out the best spot is left of the left speaker... lol
But hearing these comments; i might need that length anyways :)
@@Kah0ona I had some room gain issues that bothered me. The bass never sounded clean and tight. I moved the sub and it’s amazing how good it sounds now. The key is to keep the sub gain as low as you can- the sub disappears and all the low frequency energy seems to come from the mains.
@@johnsittard7025 iï
i built in 2 X 10" down-firing subs into my listening chair. rear ported. You can barely hear it in the next room, hardly any bass in the SAME room, yet...sitting in my perfect sub-chair.. its what i've been listening to for more than 20 yrs :) welcome to the club!
It sounds like it's similar to how I've set up mine (16" though) next to my couch. I started that experiment because I wanted to see what would happen if I chose a near field placement because that would also create the best aesthetic in the room (it's very easy to make a room ugly from an interior design perspective with hifi gear) and it just worked great. I immediately liked the sound and the measurements were really good so I kept the placement.
It's very interesting to hear a similar idea from people in a company like this so I look forward to hearing more details of how his set up was.
I'll try that. Did it years ago with cheap small subs. But that was out of necessity. I've got two twelve's, I'll give that a go. Thanks for all the hard work.
Very clever Paul, no doubt PS Audio's subwoofers coming out, will cater to Michael from Houston's question! ........perfect timing
I have had my sub set up directly behind me for a while. Before I did this, I was always fiddling with the sub. I now never touch it. Very satisfying.
Wow, were just figuring this out now. Must be a case of if its right in front of your face you don't see it.
Love near field sub especially in the tiny space I have for a home theater. Right behind my couch and with the proper distance number in the receiver it time aligns with my L and R towers that have a 12" woofer in them as well. Provides a semi-even bubble of bass from the towers and sub but the added benefit of more tactical response since the sub is only a foot and some inches from my main seat. I'm only running a simple polk 12" sub so not much it can handle but with it being near field it doesn't have to run as hot to get great performance. If you're running 1 sub or a budget sub like me I think near field is the best way to go.
So these subs were mounted on stands at ear level a foot behind you? Also, how much separation was the between the subs?
Definitely want to try that out but want to understand how they were set up.
I don't think you needs stands because they don't need to be at ear level.
@@edgar9651 Thankyou👍
I love your videos Paul, but I’ve been depressed about your decision to make the FR30’s in China I haven’t been listening in a while… This was good and fun so I’m glad I watched. Please look at some way to make the future speakers here in NA/USA! MISCO Speakers might be able to work with you… Did you ask?
Yeah, if you want to pay $60K for them, go right ahead!
USA stuff sucks, the good stuff comes from China.
Once I found an X3 sub setup I can't go back. front,rear,and at/under seating. Currently running an 8" on top of a 12" at 2/3 from left, another 12" under my main row of seating and a dual 10" in the rear. Tuning and getting all in phase was the interesting part but for home theater(once tuned) nothing else compares. Have had this set up for the last few months now on the new system and feeling /hearing every level and frequency is incredible as it is meant to be.
Now on another note though your ambient listening zones( non main seating areas) are hit or miss as it is all tuned to one area. Did not work well for just turn on the tunes and hang out until I figured out which subs to turn on/off to get my desired ambient listening environment.
Ended up with nearfield sub in my home theater. I must admit it's to small a room for the task, so small the low wavelength / frequencys bounce the walls and short out. Many hours used and a lot of measurements are made, but the nearfield sub placement ended up as the best solution in my small room.
Dr. Per Hsu of Hsu Research has advocated near field subs for years.
@ Robert Haysley. I have 2 vtf15 HSU subs. Best bang for the buck imo.
@@curtc.6914 Me too 😁
@@curtc.6914
I have a pair of 1220 HO’s and a VFT1. Dr. Hsu has been ahead of the game for decades
You're right, been around for a long time.
I've nearfield sub'd for 15yrs or so.
Yes, but tell us WHICH 18" subs - it makes a big difference as to whether they are QSC or SVS, for example, and ported or not?
Done it for years two 18 JBL next to the couch on 2.5kw of class d actively crossed over.
It's extremely visceral
Super cool Paul...Darren sounds very cool!
Can you take your video camera to Darren's next time because that sounds wicked?
Holly Paul !! That’s the dream. Please show us this set up 🙏
Yea sure we do this in PA loads with monitoring systems. You don't want to inject loads of bass into the environment and getting into the mics or causing trouble. There are even "kicker" subwoofer systems which inject the musician's body with mechanical vibration via their chair, or their feet. The physical experience of bass is really important, and you need to shake the floor, and hit the listener in the kidneys.
Curios…it works for the listening position, but how does it work for the rest of the seats in the room? (I have 2 15” velodynes… one in corner and one behind the couch.where we sit…. Ill be sticking w that set up as it sounds and feels great to me)
Got 2 friends who have one 13” sub in front and another just behind/beside the seating position. Damn … it’s good for music.
In the case of my setup, the REL S/510 is both in the near field (about 8 inches from my right elbow) and in one of the two optimal positions in the room. Can't ever hear sound coming from the sub; always seems to emanate from the mains (Klipsch Forte IV) which are also in near field (approximately 6' from the listening position).
What models where the 18" subs ? I would love to know ! I have a dayton 18" ultimax, nice sub. But probably nowhere near as good as what he has in his home
How would you adjust for time alignment with them being so close?
Actually that's the way I had mine set up was behind my couch and then because of my design change in the room I decided to put it in a place where. Let's try it again I built my home theater room where a bay windows, and I put insulating foam and fiberboard on the windows to make sure that the base would not rattle the window. But if you go outside while you're playing some loud music of course it almost seems like you can hear more bass outside your house then you can on the inside. So I think I am going to actually I'm sure I'm going to set it up that I have my subwoofers behind my couch again thank you for the inspiration
I remember when the movie "Earthquake" destroyed Los Angeles, on the screen only. That movie had a sound track that shock the theater. I remember reading that the Universal Pictures sent structural engineers around to check if the theaters could handle the bass in the sound track. How much bass does it take to shake a building....earth quakes have been doing it a long time with out a sub-woofer.
Real Quakes, often lack any Sound. You FEEL the vibrations, rather than Hear anything (thought, you might hear things shake and fall). The best way to create that kind of force, is a Bass Shaker transducer... which is like a subwoofer, with an attached heavy mass... without an air-moving Cone.
Two 15 watt bass shakers under your office chair... (at max power) will be so violent that your eyes wont be able to see the TV picture in front of you. It will be a total blur... due to your entire body vibrating so much.
If you are speaking about the specially designed speaker boxes that were used for amplifying normal woofers for use in those theatres... Ive heard them used in a night club. They are awful. The bass is muddy and highly distorted. Loudness alone, does not equate to being "Better".
Ive been to an outdoor Metallica concert... where when I was like a football field away from the stage... and It felt like I was getting pounded in the chest by a 50 lb sledgehammer, on every bass thump. Far more clean, precise, and powerful... than those low qualify horn box speaker designs.
saw the movie in a Grand Old Theater sitting 2 feet from that 6' monster up in the balcony .. the world did indeed shake
I remember that - “Earthquake in Sensurround”
Yeah... and after all that craze was over, Earthquake cabinets were all over the second hand market.
@@uhfch2358
Yep, after Earthquake, was The Battle for Midway.. war drama, then my fave, the thriller; Rollercoaster... with first ever front row high quality shots of California Magic Mountain and the first modern looping rollercoaster...
For a coaster fan, and HiFi enthusiast, it checked the boxes.
Killer front row footage for the era.
I mean a rollercoaster serial bomber film with subs, what else would you want!
What brand were the subs?
😁 back in the day, I had four subs in my work truck and two subs (sound stream )in my passenger van BOY …do I miss those days😊 but someday I hope to get to Colorado to hear your system 🎶🤗😍😍😍
Also …Played GLORIA ESTABAN’s …TURNING THE BEAT AROUND….more times than I can count 😎👍
i have dual subwoofers on my sided, one meter distance. it sure is nice :) i do recommend, and have as much dsp as you can get to help things out.
Thought that was what the Bass Kickers were for? Or was that rear field audio?
I wonder if thats allot of the appeal to very high end near field studio monitors like the Guzauski-Swist gs3a's that Mick Guzauski mixed Daft Punk's Random Access Memories on. Stereo subs of such high caliber that close have to be incredible
Tell me who makes a wireless sub woofer to do this Paul… I have electricity in the near field but want wireless
Great video, Paul. Love ❤️ your channel.
I enjoy the conversation, thank you.
Hi Paul, just a question: I suppose that in this case you're obliged to have two subwoofer. Right?
In my study, where I have my computers & are watching this, a quite small room (posh houses probably have larger toilets) I have a no-name sub (from a council hard rubbish run) that is almost arms length away, and the bass is beautiful. On the other hand, in my loungroom I have another sub, that just sucks (usually turned off) - about all it's good for is to say to visitors, yes I have a sub, it's over there - mind you I cannot place the speakers or sub as per any guide, they go where there is room, in the corners etc. I get way more enjoyment with near field in my study.
Again great commentary!! Thank you
In my car the subwoofers are under the front seats. That sounds great and makes your trousers vibrate :)
Bass is so often considered to have to be loud, I suppose even Paul's remarks in this vid are amongst those lines.But I have experienced that bass starts to sound amazing, when it is 'driven' delicate. Furthermore, coupling of cones, might be happening, but large woofers sound better, but not to drive them loud. They need to produce volume at a low level. Might that be 'moving air' in stead of 'punching air', I don't know. But such speakers will not be partner proof. Everything is a trade off....
I have mu sub 2 meters away for me, 0,5 meters from the walls of sidewalls, its 13,8 inch Arendal 1723 1s, the best sub i exer owned, really good for music,not slow at all very tight and good texure in bass,
Best sound channel I’ve plugged into * )
That's interesting. I'll have to try something like that.
I always thought you need some distance for the lowest of frequencies to be at its most effective, because the wavelength is so long?
You're not alone, many enthusiasts believe that... but it doesn't work that way.
Think headphones... my Westone UM50pro InEars, faithfully reproduce down into the bottom octaves... in a sealed ear canal, adjacent to my eardrums.
Proximity and/or smaller room volumes are actually quite beneficial due to both vessel gain, and a shift upward of the fundamental mode, or first mode. (dictated by the room's longest dimension).
The wavelengths of freqs reproduced in a small room, behave differently depending on their length.
There's four regions of behavior.
The Pressure region, is below the freq that has a wavelength of twice the longest length of the room.
This results in Pressure Vessel Gain (PVG), the scenario whereby the longest dimension of the room can no longer support full propagation of the waveform.
At this point, the normal propagation transitions to pressurization. It changes from a normal cyclic propagation, to pressurization because the wavelengths are too big for the space.
The frequency at which this occurs is approximately the point whereby half the wavelength of a given frequency is equal to the rooms longest dimension. So, a 20 hz frequency has a wavelength 56.5 feet. So half of that, 28.25 feet, is the point of transition. Any frequency below that point pressurizes the room, and any frequency above that point propagates freely. So in this room that's approximately 28 feet in the longest dimension, from 20 hz downward, the room gives back acoustically.
At this frequency, the results are a gain in acoustic pressures in the room that grows as the frequency decreases. This acoustic support reciprocity, is theoretically 12db per octave. The percentage of the 12 db/octave gain one achieves, entirely depends on the integrity of the boundary walls and surfaces. If it was the theoretical concrete bunker, a full 12db/octave boost would occur. Typically, gains somewhere between 6-10 db octave are commonplace.
Next region is where the resonances dominate. Room modes, etc.
Then the transition region, then above that freq is the specular region, whereby the propagation energy behaves ray like... or billiard ball like.
I know that's a lot.
A portion of that was a copy/paste answering a similiar question.
What 18 inch subwoofers was he using?🤔🤷♂️
I am interested to know as well.
I also need to know. The wilsons in my second listening room have been sounding a little thin in the low end.
Details!! Details!!!!
And how were they connected!?
Darren built his own subwoofers. He talks about them on his podcast… the HiFi Podcast with Darren and Duncan. Great podcast!
Dennis Foley, from Acoustic Fields has been talking about this for a couple of years now.
Nothing new.
Been around for well over a decade publically... I've implemented nearfield for 15yrs, AVS Forum has tons of nearfield acolytes, many threads and builds documenting it for the past decade or so.
@@FOH3663 well good for you
@@mickyd3
Simply sharing there's a mammoth amount of info available for those interested, and AVS is the place to find it.
It's great, a decade or so of detailed discussion, well documented w/images, etc.
@@FOH3663 I haven't looked at that website in years because I moved back over to 2 channel audio. You are right, there is an abundance of great information on that forum. Many ideas can be shared between the 2 channel forums and Surround channel forums to improve everyone's listening experience. Thanks
I sit on my subwoofer. I can feel the bass coming up right through me.
if someone asked me to sit with my head next to an 18 inch sub id demand an emergency stop button
Paul, I can guarantee that the bass frequencies were more than rumbling your ears!🤣🤣🤣🤘🏼💿
Thanks Paul. Soon I have to buy a new sofa. Maybe I should change that and buy some sub woofers with cushions on it. ;)
Fascinating!
I usually didn't have very powerfull subs but running around the room with it in my hand in noticed that it sounds best behind couch, i always thinking thats so wrong but i like it 😆 so i was on to something without knowing it at the time
veeeeerrry interesting. I have the cable length to try this.
Kind of hard to do if you got hard flooring and no way to hide cable. In my place it is not possible to have my dual subs behind sofa
Vibrate the the air not the furniture. Check out 50hz and high volume. Try not to lose it if you can.
Paul, I imagine that you enjoyed your near field experience with Darren Myers' near field sub woofer set-up.
But is it like having too much salt on your fries? Your initial reaction is "Wow!". But after some time, you realize that this is not ideal?
Did Darren's stereo accurately represent the recorded music?
Did Darren's stereo present the bass with realism, the same as you would expect to hear from vocals or brass instruments?
My goal for listening to music is to not take notice of the stereo, at all.
My goal for listening to music is to be transported to the room where the musicians created their sonic work of art.
Did Darren's bass enhancements do that?
Did Darren's bass enhancements present you with the artist's performance?
Or did Darren's bass enhancements become part of the performance?
You mentioned "cleanest bass I ever heard". I take that to mean "effortless". But was it the right amount of "clean"?
Hmm, near field subwoofers wouldn't get rid of room modes, but perhaps having them so close would move all the peaks and nulls away from the listening position?
But you put way less energy into the room
But you put way less energy into the room
@@Harald_Reindl That's true. Usually we think about sizing subwoofers to energize a whole room, with the peaks and nulls that come with it. With a low volume near field setup, room sound would be significantly diminished
Modes exist regardless of volume.
In this case, it's simple proximity.
A measurement mic at the listening position, capturing a sub elsewhere in the room.
Result; big modal peaks and huge cancelation nulls.
Take the measurement mic and place it directly close mic'd in front of the driver.
Result; a big smooth gentle arc response, not unlike a speedbump cross-section...
free from peaks/dips.
Essentially, the inherent native free field response of the sub will be the measurement.
The nearfield SPLs are so high relative to room sound, such that the native response way overwhelms the room's negative influence.
@@FOH3663 audiophiles don't understand physics and acoustics - they buy expensive cables and imagine wonders :-)
I’ve been doing this for years.
If one are gona test Subs in near field in a home theater. How high can the subs be crossed over ? Can we go to 100 - 120hz X-over with speakers ? Today I have my subs up front. And after a lot of posisjon testing, i had to go for a placement where the subs had somewhat Equal response and have my svs eq1 do frequency response corrections (no danger, my subs have plenty headroom for that). Never tested near field, so wondering how high x-overs will work
in stereo i have crossed subwoofers up to 200hz with great result, but you will need to set a highpass to the main speakers at about 200 also, and some peq to even things out.
i even did 2000hz for a while, tweeters directly with a 10" subwoofers, it actually sounded pretty fun for a few weeks.
My subwoofer behind the couch is configured for 60 Hz crossover - with 80 Hz you can locate it due music, with 60 it disappears
That's a pretty high crossover point even for HT, unless you're using 3" drivers. Crossover point would be the same no matter where you place the sub.
Kind of funny that the audiophiles are now using methods right out of the car audio basshead's playbook, albeit with slightly different goals. Yup, a pair of subs all up in your face (back?) can sound amazing, with the added benefit of being able to run them at lower levels.
Not really what he meant actually.
Nearfield doesn't mean enclosure space. Car audio generally cannot be hifi due to the vibration, noise level and small space and close reflecting material.
More like a headphone concept.
exciters/vibration transducers on your chair or couch
"Subwooferness." Talk about coining a new term on the fly.
I've driven a Chevy van for the last 30+ years. I run two MTX's with 10's, 4" mids and horn tweeters in boxes in the back and a 12" sub between the seats. Kind of sets the bar high for my home system to hit that kind of bass.
Oh geez, not another placement rabbit hole for me to go down.
Still beats golf.
I have mine aimed at my chair maybe three feet away. Works great.
Wilson Audio speakers "don't have a lot of great bass"???
Hsu subs recommended near field years ago
Hmmm, now that is interesting!
What happened to that Jennifer ?
imagine thinking someone is so brilliant for thinking of this! perhaps i should quit building ships and start designing audio systems lol I have always setup my systems this way.. i have a pair of yamaha NS-1000m's with 2 dayton 15" subs under the coffee table
🤗👍 GREAT STORY 😁😍😍😍
4 18’s?? If that does not impress then I don’t know what will.
Now.. take just two 10” subs, put them in a properly built T-Line tuned to 20Hz and you will want to eliminate those 18’s. 😉
Nice
Gotta love a well executed T.L.
But... you know it takes nearly 16 10"s to equal the cone area of those four 18"s?
Just implement a proper T.L. with the 18"s.. ;)
@@FOH3663
I know but I’ve felt how just two 10’s in a T-line tuned to about 20Hz can shake my body.
I’ve seen many setups with 18’s and anything lower than 30hz is just noise due to the enclosure or / and tuning. Sometimes it’s just a matter of taste and how low you want to go.
@@Bassotronics
Me too, I've heard my share of mediocre LF.
To attain low distortion, realistic playback levels at 30hz and below, isn't easy.
Every octave in extension requires a quadrupling of capability.
I've got a quad array of 18"s in my attic mounted Infinite Baffle subwoofer, four 15"s from a pair of Seaton SubMersives.
All DSP aligned, transparently, across both the time and freq domain.
Currently, my mains are set up like monitors, whereby I have two different systems set up together.
L-R, and my L-C-R, for media consumption and mix evaluations.
But my LCRs are double 12"s, so I've got 6-12"s time aligned with the 8 subs... so I've got a lot of headroom via low distortion, high SPL peak capability.
Back to T.L.s... they can do magic, you're absolutely right.
Aren't 18's kind of slow?
I haven't heard many subs in 18" woofer size but I'd expect that you can build pretty fast ones if you do it right. I'm at 16" and I don't have any lack of speed, even to the point of a hifi reviewer once calling the model almost too fast because he was used to hearing some more delay in the bass on one track (which is kind of a nonsensical statement since it means that he's used to something that wasn't in the recording). I think Darren has built his own so that makes it even harder to say how they perform.
There's zero connection to driver speed from either driver size or weight.
@@FOH3663 I always thought smaller drivers were quicker and tighter sounding.
@@richardsmith2721
There's multiple elements at play.
Typical big, long stroke drivers have a higher inductance, ... large diameter voice coil with high Xmax has a lot of inductance.
Those drivers are fine down in the bottom octaves, but the upper octave, say the punch region 50hz to 100hz, the inductance hump impedes it's speed and performance.
Low inductance or controlled inductance motors perform much better in the upper end of the sub range.
Example include pro audio limited stroke drivers or trick, small batch motors like the old TC Sounds 5400, 5100.
Anyway, subjectively experiencing slow muddy bass can be driver settling time, excessive LF room decay from inadequate bass trapping.
Ideally, you want that initial bass hit, fast decay... so the listener can experience the NEXT bass hit clearly delineated.
Another element of perceived "slow bass", is poor time alignment between the subs and the mains... it's critical that the broadband pulse, that hits all the drivers individual ranges, it's critical that the wavelaunch from each driver's energy, propagates outward and hits the listener as a coherent wavefront.
When intact, the simultaneous mids and highs flesh out the leading edge of the bass impact.
Another bass speed "diminisher", is dynamic compression, magnetic but primarily thermal.
A woofer's resonant frequency, combined with it's electrical impedance resonance, can pair to elicit "fast bass" perception.
At impedance peak, say 50hz, essentially all the current transfers to motion. Whereas elsewhere in the range a portion of current is heat loss.
There's additional factors, too.
Big bass speed factors;
Inductance
Time alignment
Bass trapping
Driver settling
Dynamics compression
The only direct affect of driver mass is sensitivity.
I know, that's a lot.
I hope it helps... there's a lot of bass mythology out there.
Rhetorical question: And why not simply use headphones, then? Totally eliminates the room and the driver is literally at you ear. :)
Seems like someone just invented car audio.
Nothing new here. This arrangement may be great for movie and game explosions etc. but not so good for music. Placing a sub right behind your seat causes the seat to vibrate and this is felt by your body. This introduces issues with resonances in your seat. Worth a try but may become irritating with some music.
30hz and below? So they are like sub-subwoofers....
Well, my thoughts are they are called "subwoofers" because they are intended to produce sound below what we can hear, so "sub" 20Hz (so, boosting the "feel" more than the "sound"). More realistically they should be used to produce sound below what the main speakers are competent at. As I understand it the PS Audio FR30's are good to 30Hz, so there's no need to reinforce base above that.
I haven't heard a lot of other people's sound systems, but my opinion is (from the few I have heard and comments people have made) that many boost the sound too high for realism. They aren't using them to fill in missing base, they are using them to boost base beyond what is natural. All good if that's your personal taste, but I think if you're looking for a more natural replication of live music adjusting your subs to not produce sound higher in the range is often more appropriate.
@@Bannockburn111 My interpretation of subwoofer is "below woofer" which means where your mid woofer stops thats where the sub woofer comes in. And a woofer probably rarely work well below 50hz anyway if its also decent on the higher parts. Common is people refering to subs as bringing ambience into the room. The sounds you get from being in a big hall.
@@bingoberra18: The term I like to use is "Floor". As one turns the volume up, you can hear the floor and room size of the studio or recording space...🎧
Great, now I have to buy two 18s and try this. My wallet will not be happy... This idea is too good not to try
No need for expensive drivers...
Does Darren live in the middle of a huge ranch somewhere? 😂😂😂....
Why twin 18" drivers ? One single 1500watt 18" would surely demolish any sofa at that range ...
I have 1 downfiring, 1 kerf and one sealed all on 10", the downfiring is at the back. All sound fantastic by having three different worlds together...
Caught my gf sitting on mine.
A wonderful benefit of many...
In addition to the smooth response, you achieve a GREAT response as well.
"Total Whackjob Audiophile"
T-shirt, please! :D
FIRST again, Yes yes yes I get 🥇🏆🍾🥂👏🇳🇱 and everlasting fame!
I have 1 downfiring, 1 kerf and one sealed all on 10", the downfiring is at the back. All sound fantastic by having three different worlds together...