Team Flare: The Worst Serious Evil Team (Video Essay)
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- Опубликовано: 2 май 2024
- Welcome to my first video essay on the channel, an analysis of Team Flare, and what makes them the most disappointing evil team in Pokemon to this day.
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This is a nitpick, but it will forever bother me that Team Flare uses dark and poison types like every other evil team. Not even mentioning the obvious fire-type connection, their entire gimmick is fashion. Why aren't they focused on using aesthetically pleasing Pokemon like delcatty, florges, or roserade? Why are they stuck using things like *Gulpin*?? Idk it's just always bothered me that they can't even stick with the tiny bit of identity that they actually have.
That’s a really good point that I didn’t even think about. They should really have a different Pokémon selection represent their team.
maybe some of the grunts could use those "ugly" pokemon, to show that they're less interested in the actual cause, but the higher-ups actually use those "beautiful" pokemon to show they're deeper into the ideology.
The anime really made me a fan of Flare. To beat them it took, Ash, his rival, all the gym leaders, the professor, an elite four member, two champions, a superhero, and a legendary pokemon. Lysander also managed to destroy Lumiose which was nuts.
Yeah I've heard the anime version of Team Flare is a lot better than the video game version. I haven't watched the anime for X and Y, so I wouldn't know but what you've said here sounds really cool!
@@Cadeorade5 XY and later XYZ all are very anime in many ways. I personally really enjoyed the show and the relationships between the main group. You should watch it if you ever have time. I think the anime really flushed out Kalos. I do wish the games had the time to.
Hmm, interesting. I've never really been a fan of the shows, but I might have to check them out!
I was about to say that, i never watched the anime (whole), but i do hear people saying it basically saved X & Y, which includes Team Flare
PS. The Pokémon Adventures version of Team Flare is EXTREMELY scary, please, read the manga, Lysandre is such an intimodating villain there.
@@Cadeorade5 Many people (me included) consider xy/xyz to be the best of the Pokémon animes.
Although, as an American who doesn’t speak Japanese, and could only watch it on Netflix, I’ve only seen the English dub. And I’m sure the Japanese version is great too, but the English version is my fav.
There is exactly one thing i really like about team Flare.
And that is that their admins are no-names. Faceless, generic trainers, that didn't get their position through skill in battle or leadership, but by paying more than the other members.
The only people with unique designs are the ones with actual skills.
The scientists are obviously scientific geniuseseseses.
Lysander is the (supposedly) intelligent leader.
And the last not faceless member is an elite 4 member.
Obviously they didn't really do anything with that...
Yeah I wish we actually got to see why their scientists were geniuses.
I think the Manga brought justice to Team Flare as they took over the news, controlling what people saw and how they would react, chased the main heroes for X's Mega Ring and Mega Stones, focused their plans on Mega Evolution as well as the three Legendary Pokemon, and basically made the heroes weary of every single person they encountered on their journey.
Yeah that's what I've heard. From what I've heard Team Flare is portrayed much better in the other forms of media than in the video games. That's really interesting to hear!
@@Cadeorade5 I’ve actually been working on a Pokemon AU, and for my Kalos AU, my idea for Team Flare is similar to yours where they’re known by the public and when something seems a miss, Lysander covers it up by saying he wasn’t aware of certain operations being carried out behind his back.
And, he’s not alone. In fact, he’s only CO-leader of Team Flare.
"One day, there might not be enough resources, so I'm going to kill a bunch of people and pokemon!"
It’s kinda crazy how insane team flare sounds when you say the quiet part out loud
@@Cadeorade5isn't that rose from gen 8 though
@@InsertFunnyThingHerenow that is the worst evil team
@@serenitynow85 eh, I respect that rose's team only wasted my time once or twice instead of multiple times like most of the villain teams
@@InsertFunnyThingHere so the evil team is evaluated by how little they interject in the game "story"?
Then yeah, Macrocosmo (or whatever their name is) sure is number 1
One thing you didn't mention (because its easy to miss)... Some of the Team Flare grunts have dialogue that explains that they had to pay a lot of money to join Team Flare, and that the only people Lysandre won't wipe out is Team Flare. This implies that most of the grunts working for Team Flare don't even really believe in their cause, and only joined so they wouldn't be on the receiving end of the super weapon.
That's an interesting point. Yeah I definitely missed that and a few other details, but honestly I think that may make Team Flare even worse in my eyes.
@@Cadeorade5 I think it gives them more depth.
@@lasercraft32It's the other way around, it makes them more shallow. Lysandre wants a beautiful world of good, selfless people. But someone that would pay a lot of money to join a team that is going to cause mass genocide just to save your own ass is the kind of person whom Lysandre would classify as filth. Unless Lysandre is somehow unaware of how recruits are chosen in his own team, this just makes his goals even more non-sensical
Easy fix to their fossil fight: they want the fossils because those Pokémon were killed by the Iltimate Weapon. They look into them to research the effects or to trace the legendary or something.
It's not hard to make it work, they just didn't bother.
I mean maybe that's the assumption? But honestly, without any mention of it, I wouldn't believe it. It is a great reason to be in Glittering Cave though.
i'm gonna say something maybe controversial but i gotta say it:
team flare is the ONLY evil pokemon team that i feel didn't have any clear goal or identity from a developmental standpoint
team rocket wants to hold power over the region and will do so through dirty means; magma and aqua are at odds with what is essentially the physical embodiment of a philosophical debate between man and beast; galactic want to work towards a new vision of the world; plasma "wants" to free pokemon from perceived imprisonment; hell, even the "non-serious" teams have clear goals. skull is a group of delinquents who want to be able to stand on their own feet; yell are just crazy sports fans who don't mind sabotaging marnie's competitors; star are outcast kids who are acting out.
i wrote all that off the top of my head, because regardless of their quality, i REMEMBER every goal of the teams, because the developers clearly had a clear image of the goals and motives of the teams in mind
but i cannot for the LIFE of me think of what flare's goals are. to make a pretty world? to get rid of "degeneracy"? to destroy the region so it's always remembered in stasis? i THINK i can see what they're going for, but i just don't think it's strong or clear enough to really be claimed as the true goal of the team. i just cannot wrap my head around it besides lysandre being a creepy weirdo, and to me it feels like the developers struggled to come up with the true motive behind the actions of team flare. they had good ideas but i felt like they struggled immensely to find the connecting thread
Yeah I think they are just kind of a brain child of Lysandre, who doesn’t actually know what he wants, therefore the players don’t know what he wants
@@Cadeorade5 yeah... it's just confusing for everyone involved, and instead of having this interesting look in a warped mind, we just kind of get an underwhelming evil team. at least their music is good lol
I don't think that's controversial. X and Y in general lay the groundwork for exploring the theme of beauty more thoroughly but do almost nothing with it. The same way they lay the groundwork for interesting stories revolving AZ and the Friends.
@@juandiegotorres9632 maybe it isn't. tbh i never know what is and isn't controversial with pokemon opinions, it seems like every time i turn there's a new overall view of the games and i never feel like i can keep up xD
@@OvisArcana they change. Usually depending of the generation of fans controlling the discourse. Like even though he says that gen 5 is regarded as the best one when it came out and genwunners controlled the discourse online gen 5 was viewed as the black sheep. Now that Unova fans are opening RUclips channels and making pokemon content and now that we have mediocre games like Sword and Shield people are giving gen 5 the praise and respect it deserves.
"...they're willing to go through hell OR high water..."
I love this line so much. The subtle emphasis on or is perfect for describing Magma and Aqua's ambitions in short and literal terms to prove your point of them having clear identity while not taking away from the main topic of Team Flare's lack of identity. You have a real knack for these types of videos, I'd love to see more. (and maybe even collaborate if you're interested)
Credit to @nurseethi for that one
Aqua and Magma may not be the best evil teams, but boy do they have an Identity and love bickering with each other
I didn't pick up on Lysandre and Team Flare being massive hypocrites before. Also, jeez, those Lysandre monologues are hamfisted and grating.
Yeah I was really shocked when I looked back on those monologues. They're just awful.
@@Cadeorade5 Never felt angry at something in a videogame before or since but that first Lysandre speech in their secret base, especially that *single tear*, really ticked me off.
Team Flare, and more importantly Lysandre's speeches have reoccuring themes of aesthetic goodness, productivity, and population control which are all classic facist talking points. They should have played more with the idea that beauty = moral goodness and directly challenged the player with it. They could have also had Team Flare be opppsed to the introduction of ugly, unproductive non-Kalos pokemon and trends. (Because Kalos and its value must be preserved). It would be a more understandable allegory while remaining suffiently cartoonish.
Yeah there were definitely patterns of some of those subjects that your brought up here in the dialogue, but they didn’t really lean into it enough to where it actually is a big part of Team Flare and Lysandre’s motivation. Totally agree that they would be a lot more interesting had they leaned into it more.
"What if Lysandre is a psychopath?" he asks if there's anything hypothetical about the hypocrite trying to commit genocide because "beauty" being a psychopath.
On top of everything about his role in the story and his personality and motives...they never provide any real elaboration on why the hell he walks in with goggles and a bunch of robot flies buzzing around him in the final battle either.
LOL! Yeah idk maybe it's a fashion thing
Honestly, I feel that sycamore having more of a role in the team flare story, as you said, it would be more interesting
sorry for the world's most unsightful comment, I was doing crafts while listening to your video, you made really good points and I'd personally would like to see more morally ambiguous professors, like sada/toru (who I don't see as villains imo)
Thanks for the comment nonetheless! It's hard to speculate how Sycamore would impact the story with him being completely absent for the majority of it.
I think of Team Skull and the Aether Foundation as "Serious" evil teams, just in team skull's case they have alot of moments where they're made light of, but to be fair it kinda serves a double purpose, most of Team Skull are societal rejects and teens who are fed up with not being taken seriously or being looked down upon
I also think team starvare closer to being "serious" but they're more like a pre-evil team rather than an evil team, meaning they're a bunch characters who are on a crossroads to becoming a true bad guy team but turn away from that due to the player
Yeah that point I was mostly talking about the main evil team of a game so I wasn't really thinking about the Aether Paradise. I personally don't think that Team Skull's a serious evil team, I think they're more just rejects who want to be accepted instead of taken seriously. And I do think Team Star's up in the air. I can see the argument for why they are serious and why they aren't serious.
@@Cadeorade5 yeah I think up in the air is probably the best way to describe Team Star lol
Edit: Also I just realized that was a pun
The Aether Foundation just came across as people just doing their job and Team Skull just came across as the alolan version of those biker gangs in kanto. None of them feel evil or that big of a threat just a annoyance more than anything.
Okay Skull was meant to be less serious and the larger threat was supposed to be Aether
Pokmon X was my first ever Pokemon game. To say I'm disappointed by the region's wasted potential would be an understatement.
I almost feel like Lysandre being a hypocrite is intentional, but I'm not sure.
Part of me agrees with this, but then he's also written so seriously that I'm not sure about it.
@@Cadeorade5 True.
Xerosic is the most memorable Flare Admin because of the postgame lol
Definitely that, but I also think he plays a the biggest role of the scientists in the story as well
Lysandre's initial talking points sound quite nazi-ish, what with describing certain populations as filth, wanting to destroy them, wanting to bring the world to his version of beauty, and eventually trying to systematically exterminate his supposed "filth". They could have definitely made team flare act as his populist movement, and even have a large part of the general public supporting them (maybe have them ignored in the beginning, as a minor nuisance?). They even have the perfect word game there, with his main invention being the holo-caster (say it aloud, think what it soinds like).
Wow yeah I never thought about the wordplay there. There’s a lot of interesting thought experiments to be had if Team Flare was different in any of the ways you mentioned.
In all fairness to team flare and what little thematic consistency they have, the fashion is the expression of Beauty which is supposed to be the theme of X and Y, the fact that the story doesn't do a good job at exploring the theme not withstanding.
These are my thoughts exactly! If they actually looked more at their fashion, that theme would be important!
They suck in the X&Y games, but Team Flare became the Best Evil Team in the XY&Z Anime, with their arc basically being the "Avengers Endgame" of the Pokemon series and Lysandre got a banger of a song in Ultra Sun & Moon.
Yeah I've heard so much about how good Team Flare were in the anime! It's a shame that they couldn't replicate that in the games.
Fingers crossed for the algorithm blowing this up 🤞
We can only hope!
My man! People don’t remember how lackluster XY’s plot lines are compared to BW1 and 2, people remember the anime for making flare and kalos cool… not the games.
I have tons of issues about the games from the story to the gameplay.
I am glad I am not the only one who thinks this. I hope video does well.
Yeah I feel like a lot of people forget about Team Flare! I have not watched the anime so I do not have those rose tinted glasses
@@Cadeorade5 The anime gives alot more set up for their plans...with one of the main characters working for team flare. He is basically the N but in the anime...
but I think it lacks way less complexity than N had.
Great video 🔥and totally agree with the points you brought up. Even after watching the video, I STILL don't remember the admins names lol.
Even after writing and recording the video, I don't remember them either lol
Just a small correction. Antisocial doesn't mean loner. That's more like asocial, Antisocial means that you go AGAINST the social rules. It's a little more complicated that that but That a common mistake for people that don't know about psychopath ology
Thanks for the clarification! Yeah I was unaware of psychopathy in more of a medical sense, but I tried to do my best to explain it but I definitely missed some things.
I think the direction to take Team Flare is focusing on 'etermity'. Because doesn't that make a lot of sense based on what Lysander is talking about?
His conversation with Diantha is probing her about staying beautiful and doing the same roles. In fact it's her duty to stay beautiful, right?
The fossils can fit into them investigating how things can be preserved. Especially if you switch the focus to amber since it fits with themes of beauty and preservation a bit better.
They could also investigate ghost types simultaneously while investigating those stones.
AZ could've been captured to study his immortality.
Lysander mentions how *Kalos* is beautiful. Maybe his plan involves creating essentially a bubble around Kalos that preserves everything but at the expense of everywhere outside Kalos.
I could also see how if Team Flare looks at things as giving immortality to people why they might think that's a good thing.
The Abomasnow could be established as being unusually old and maybe that could even be attributed to Mega evolution to tie in Lysander's interest in it a bit more.
I also think you could present, separately, an ongoing theme surrounding the subjectivity of both beauty and change.
For example, the white marble statues we attribute to being so beautiful and iconic were apparently originally painted. So that beauty and associations we attach to them hasn't always been there in the same way it is now.
You could have NPCs commenting in a museum about how they don't get a painting and another one gushing about it. Another saying they didn't like something until the read about the inspiration for something else.
The NPCs in the cafes could talk about the different things they enjoy about the same dish.
Older people talking about new stuff they're into
Younger people getting into something 'old' or retro.
And the consequences of inflicting immortality could be really interesting. Like all the babies in Kalos, do they never grow up? Part of the joy for a lot of parents is watching their children develop and change and Lysander might be robbing them of that.
I really like your points! It definitely feels like the connection between beauty and life/death was poorly articulated in the games. As he is now, Lysandre seems to view greed as ugly, but his definition of beauty is...equality? preservation? a lack of conflict? He never really nails down a consistent definition of what he regards as "beautiful". So framing it as a debate over whether true beauty is found in the eternal or the ephemeral seems like a much more profound and thematically cohesive way of exploring the connection between life/death and beauty.
That’s a really interesting angle to think about the story from. I can see how Team Flare would want to do something along those lines, but if this was their main objective, I feel like the dialogue could be a little different referencing immortality and eternity more.
You keep saying that Lysandre "joined Team Flare" at the end of the story. One problem: He DIDN'T join Team Flare. He STARTED Team Flare.
I guess what I mean by that is that from the general public's point of view, they may just think that he joined Team Flare, even though us as the player knows that he's been the mastermind behind the team the entire time.
Really nice video, really well edited and you did really well talking about team flare. I honestly did not think so much interesting discussion could come out of team flare but here we are
Neither did I when I started writing lol. But I am a professional yapper
Another reason why Team Flare is disappointing would be Malva. In the postgame of X&Y she just casually drops the fact that she was part of Team Flare. She's part of the Kalos Elite Four and this reveal does nothing.
Yeah I wish she was part of the story somehow, I think it would have improved the game quite a bit.
Yeah, the team flare is a lot better in the anime as Alain helped Team Flare which was Ash’s rival that turned on him. Team Flare also had lasting impacts on the anime as Greninja had to leave ash to defeat the effects team flare had.
Good Job on the video!
That’s really interesting! I haven’t watched the anime but that sounds pretty cool!
The fashion theme relates to the goal of beauty. The beautiful survive, the ugly filth are eradicated. Team Flare themselves being ugly would undermine their own goals.
Lysander is compromising with his goal. He would prefer to retain all of the beauty, but to eradicate the filth, it is not feasible, so sacrifices have to be made. Team Flare's very existence acts to mitigate the sacrifice, as they are the chosen ones to survive to the new era, much like those who survived the last time the weapon was fired, which Lysander looked upon favourably. It is likely he would have tried to convince Diantha to join Team Flare if she was more amicable to his view, but he realized she was not having it.
I think the manga handled Team Flare best. The scientists act as hunters to the main cast enough that they are memorable threats.
Yeah I think a version of team flare that is a lot more dangerous would have been a massive upgrade to the story.
I hope you'll continue to do these video essay type videos it was really interesting, I've just subbed!
Thank you! Yeah this is my first kinda test of video essay type content and if it goes well, I’ll continue to make stuff like this!
For me, the most interesting thing about Lysander is a line from the anime during his battle against Ash and Alain atop Prism Tower.
“Only the victor can claim he’s not wrong, Alain.”
That one line always fascinated me since the first time I heard it because it implied that Lysander was of the mentality that those who are morally correct will always triumph. So what if we took this mentality and ran with for game Lysander. Instead of trying to convince the player that his worldview is correct he instead recognises that the player has a different worldview to him during their physical encounters and questions which worldview is correct during the Holo Caster calls. Then when Team Flare enacts their plan instead of Lysander broadcasting to the entire region the grunt standing outside the Anistar Gym to give you an extra clue as to where to find Lysander in Lumiose City approaches the player and rival to inform them that Team Flare is going to wipe everyone out. The rival runs off to try and find some information and then Lysander calls the player like he had done several times before and reveals himself as the leader of Team Flare, challenging the player directly to prove who’s worldview is correct. The Team Flare segment then plays out the same, with only difference being the dialogue focusing on the two opposing worldviews. Then when the player triumphs, which by Lysander’s logic means the player is correct, Lysander in an act of denial tries to fire the Ultimate Weapon anyway, leading to the destruction of his base and his own demise.
I think this would make Lysandre a whole lot more interesting as the main antagonist! And honestly, I'd love to see that. But Team Flare themselves I feel like would also need some changes in this situation to reflect Lysandre's new character and personality.
I'd make Team Flare more like the Covenant from Halo (another group bent on firing a life-ending super weapon, but is very well written imo) , simply by having Flare poking around in archeological sites more and have some of the higherups be super crazy about beauty (maybe ranting about ugly pokemon). Him being a descendent of that ancient Kalosian king could also be him wanting to "Finish the job" Team Flare still should have a 'positive' PR presence in Kalos, and Lysandre going nuts towards the end also works still. Also elaborating on Malva being a member/ex member of Team Flare. Like that had potential but, like everything in Kalos, was left unfinished.
Totally agree with you. Have not played Halo but what you're saying sounds very much like an upgrade. Though I'm not sure other than Route 10, there are a ton of archeological sites in Kalos, so the region might have to be changed a bit (though that would probably be an upgrade to Kalos as a region too then lol). I definitely am super interested to see what changes in Kalos with the release of ZA though, hopefully they can tie up some of those loose ends.
This video is a really good analysis. Hope that it blows up!
Thank you! We can only hope.
This deserves so much more attention
Thank you!
It does seem like Lysandre getting rid of everyone is a bad plan
It really does!
Alright, as probably the biggest defender of X and Y, I'll play Devil's Advocate here in defense of Team Flare. Also I've spent an unhealthy amount of time thinking about this team, so there's that. (WARNING: SUPER Long Read Ahead)
While the whole "Team Flare doesn't have a goal or identity without Lysandre" thing is true, that's also true for pretty much every evil team. They all have a leader behind them pushing them towards achieving their goals and making them who they are. Without Giovanni, Team Rocket doesn't exist or have a goal (outside of getting him back to lead them again). Without Archie and Maxie, Teams Magma and Aqua don't exist or have goals. So while saying Team Flare wouldn't really exist without Lysandre isn't wrong, it's the same for every team.
The point about not remembering the names of the Admins is also admittedly pretty week, since most teams arguably don't have many memorable named characters. Or course the most remembered are the leaders, plus characters like Shelly and Courtney, Jessie and James, Xerosic, I guess N (though i'd count him as a leader instead) and then whoever else someone might have an obsession with. I'd also like to call out Malva who is extremely unique in that she's more of an ex-Team Flare member, AND she's a member of the Kalos Elite 4, plus a news anchor.
As for "Lysandre not joining the team until the end of the game," there's a good explanation for that. While Lysandre works behind the scenes as the leader of Team Flare, you have to also remember that he's a HUGELY successful businessman in Kalos with Lysandre Labs. Not only did he create the widely used Holo Caster, but he uses it to spy on people in secret. Of course if it came out to the public that this device they'd all been using was actually being used by Team Flare to spy on them BEFORE their big plans are ready to be set into action. It's bad optics and would be majorly detrimental to their goals since now you have people being super weary of them or even actively trying to stop them. I mean people didn't even really know who Team Flare were until they started putting their plans into motion, that's how secretive they were to the region.
Something I think went entirely unmentioned was that Team Flare's theme isn't just "fashion," it's more broadly the theme of beauty, which goes with Lysandre's goal of wanting a more beautiful world. It's not really just cool suits for the sake of cool suits, it's confidently wearing a bold and stylish outfit to further drive home their mission statement of creating their ideal world. If they just showed up in say regular black suits or casual clothes, it would take away from their goal, basically "practice what you preach" with them.
On the topic of Team Flare's goal and their appearances not really hinting towards their goals until Lysandre shows up, that's just not correct when you think about it. The final goal of Team Flare is to use Xerneas/Yveltal to power and fire the Ultimate Weapon, and every time we see them we get to see parts of their research into that goal. The fossils? Well, they're both ancient like these legendary Pokemon assumedly are, and when we see Xerneas and Yveltal for the first time, they're in dormant states, not too dissimilar to the fossils in these games. Route 10, Geosenge, and the "rocks?" Well that's a HUGE part of their plan. Geosenge is the place where the Ultimate Weapon lies waiting to be used, and Route 10's "rocks" are the graves of the Pokemon who died in the war due to the firing of the Ultimate Weapon 3,000 years ago. It only makes sense that Team Flare would be interested in investigating not only the place that has the Ultimate Weapon, but also the resting grounds of those Pokemon killed by the Ultimate Weapon. As far as the whole "people aren't reacting to the Holo Caster message" thing, I'll give you that one. It is kinda weird that nobody says anything, but I think part of it could also be people just not taking the threat seriously because, you know, Dorito Man said it, and Team Flare haven't really done anything overly threatening yet. I do concede that one though, just trying to maybe offer an explanation. The Power Plant makes sense since it's getting power for the Ultimate Weapon, and the Poke Ball factory is obviously getting balls to capture the Legendary Pokemon, but Frost Cavern is a weirder one if you aren't paying attention, which I don't blame anyone for. After saving Abomasnow from Team Flare, it gives you Abomasite, a Mega Stone. Team Flare is after Abomasnow because it has "potent energy," and I think that's likely due to it holding the Mega Stone. This really though just boils down to the standard "bad guys steal Pokemon" schtick that basically every team seems to go for, so this feels more just like doing it for the sake of tradition.
While I understand interpretation and character sympathy is different for everyone, Lysandre kinda worked on me. You've gotta remember again that he's first and foremost a successful businessman. Of course he's going to reiterate his talking points to try to convince people to join his side. If it worked to sell Holo Casters, who's to say it can't work to get people to side with Team Flare? As for sensical goals, none of the other teams had goals that made sense outside of Team Plasma, so those didn't really work in gaining sympathy for me. Team Flare though really makes a lot of sense. Lysandre at his core really just wants to remove the "ugliness" from the world to make it "more beautiful." In my mind, this isn't talking about explicit beauty or ugliness like flowers and trash, he's talking about people. It's kind of ironic that, in wanting to remove terrible people from the world, Lysandre goes about doing it in a way that makes HIM a terrible person as well, which is fitting considering the only people defeated by the launch of the Ultimate Weapon ARE Team Flare. It's one man with good intentions becoming the exact thing he sought to destroy in order to achieve his goals, and in the end, he technically succeeds in removing the "ugliness," himself. It's kinda bittersweet in a way, since while his methods were beyond insane, his intentions were good, making the world a better place. Again, maybe not everyone could see that, which is fine, but I felt it.
I think that at their core, Team Flare isn't nearly as bad as people say they are, it just takes a bit more thought into it than most people are willing to give. Most of the evil teams wear their goals on their sleeves (again, excluding Team Plasma), but Team Flare is just a bit more subtle with their actions to the normal observer. While Team Flare is by no means the best team, I would genuinely say they are second or third place, and it's no question or surprise who's on first.
Now I will say I 100% agree that Team Flare COULD have been written better. I think you're totally right that it feels like Professor Sycamore is nearly entirely absent from these events, save for I GUESS sending Dexio and Sina to deal with them a few times on his behalf, but I think seeing the Professor get involved with taking down the evil team would have been awesome. I will also say that the scientist quartet was very underused and should have appeared more, no arguments against that. I will say there's one MAJOR change I would have made to Team Flare though, using Malva more. All she really does is show up for a news report or two and then boom, Elite Four. That's it. Imagine how awesome it would have been to see Malva doing stuff with Team Flare around the region, so that when you see her making a news report, what's just regular news to everyone else is an "oh shit, Team Flare controls the media" moment for the player. It would also drastically increase the tension of her E4 fight, this Flare Admin who is fed up with the player taking her and the team she was a part of down time and time again, now at her fullest potential for one final match to prove herself, only to yet again be defeated into acceptance that Team Flare never stood a chance, even with one of the strongest trainers in the region on their team.
To conclude, I will say that even though I feel Team Flare wasn't 100% properly understood in this video, I didn't hate it, and I understand that to most, they're seen as extremely underwhelming. I just hope that maybe my comment can help someone see them in a bit of a new light, and just give them a tiny bit more respect. I would also just like to say great video, it was really well done and the points you made were very clear and well explained. Even if negative, I'm glad to see Team Flare, and X and Y in general, getting the spotlight.
Thanks for such a detailed write up! While I'm not sure that I agree with a lot of your points, I really appreciate you taking the time to listen and understand my point of view in this video and come back with a respectful and detailed response.
Team Flare's appearances in the game make more sense if you buy into the leak of X/Y's scrapped plot. In the scrapped plot, Team Flare where EXTREMELY different. Instead of being a normal evil team, Team Flare in the scrapped plots where alien invaders, straight up. They where essentially, body snatcher-type aliens, with Lysander being Professor Sycamore but body-snatched by the aliens. Their aesthetic was actually not meant to be fashion, but "Men in Black" hence why they all dress like MIB type agents but red (suits, sunglasses), have a bunch of members wearing "alien-y" looking visors, and why in the final fight Lysander randomly has a backpack with Doc Oc style robo-tentacles that look like bugs and a bug-looking bracelet for seemingly no reason what so ever. I mean, what the hell do bugs have to do with making a beautiful world, or even fashion? The HEAVY "bug" theming he has in his final battle makes ZERO sense with his in-game goal and the themes of team flare (they don't even specialize in bug types!), but makes total sense with Team Flare as Alien Invaders I.E, an "invasive species" like some bugs are. Hell, perhaps the aliens where even bug-like? We will never know for sure, as that version of X/Y, if it was ever real at all, was scrapped, and we'll never know all the details.
As for how the "alien" theme makes their appearances make sense...what do all their appearances have in common? Research/study. The Abomasnow? Research/study. The fossils? Research/study. The megaliths? Research/Study. ALL of team flare's appearances make TOTAL SENSE if you assume their original concept was "alien invaders," as if they where actually alien invaders, them intensively studying both the region and its pokemon absolutely would be VERY "in character."
So yeah, that leak not only makes Team Flare's aesthetic intrinsically tied to their themes (aliens) and goals (an alien invasion of the region), but also makes all their appearances make sense. Hell, their weird, silly poses even make more sense with them as aliens....as they do have a very "ultra recon squad-y" vibe to them, actually....
That's an interesting theory that I haven't heard before. While I do think it makes team flare make sense, I'm not sure how much sense it makes in the greater context of the Kalos region.
That's not how fossil fuels work.
wasn't there also the whole thing where his goals and motivations change ENTIRELY based on the game you are playing because of the box legendary he is trying to utilize (forcing everyone to live forever vs killing everyone forever)
Uhh, I'm not sure. I think he plays off that dichotomy of the box legendaries by being the one who wants to give life, when ironically he's actually the one taking life.
His goal of killing everyone besides Team Flare is the same in both games. The version only effects the punishment he wants to give the player after they beat him.
It probably would've been better if his motivation was different in each version though. As written, it just feels like Xerneas was crammed into Pokemon Y's story template, but if Lysandre used Xerneas to preserve Kalos's beauty forever it might've been more fitting. It would've at least made more sense than using the eternal life Pokemon to fuel his death laser.
It is very good video. X and Y were unfinished when it comes to plot and I wish there was more.
I dunno if I saw it in somewhere in different media or did I imagine the idea as kid by not understanding english well while playing game for first time, but what if Lysandre's goal was to group up "evil" people as team Flare to use and later destroy them?
In this scenario research about Ultimate weapon would be intented as pure scientific research, but obviously evil scientists want to use it to destroy everything. Why did Lysandre group up evil people and gave access to such power? Because Lysandre, despite truly wanting to make world better place, has a huge ego and thinks he can control team Flare. He would see them as worse than him and that means he would see them as too stupid to do something under his watch. Lysandre seems like number of people he can see as equal to him can be count on one hand: Diantha, Sycamore and player. His meltdown would be about him being outplayed by scientists and player being one who prevents crisis. Also luring people you don't like to use and kill them is bad. Don't do that, no matter how awful they seem to be to you.
Would it be better? No idea. Would it make more sense? Probably.
That's a really interesting theory. It would definitely make Lysandre make more sense in my opinion, but I'm just not sure if that's super feasible. Personally I think if that scenario was true Lysandre probably would've told the player and Sycamore his plans, so he would've had less obstacles being able to fire the ultimate weapon. But it's a really interesting thought experiment, because it would make Lysandre look a lot better in retrospect.
I perceived their appearance in examining the fossils as a means of looking at how beauty can be preserved. Fossils are a way of preserving the past and restoring them in the Pokemon world is like regaining the past.
Why that wasn’t expanded upon in game? Idk. Your guess is as good as mine. Maybe I’m creating narratives that Game Freak wasn’t even considering.
Yeah sometimes I'm not sure if some of the things I brought up were even thought about either lol
What frustrates me the most about Team Flate is that there was an extremely easy opportunity for commentary on class divide and the entitlement of the rich.
For one, it's 5 million pokedollars to even join, so Team Flate is nothing but a glorified elitist club.
Second, the obsession with fashion. Keeping up with fashion trends (hell, buying clothes that won't just give up and disintegrate in general) can be pretty expensive, with many designer brands skyrocketing into the thousands per piece. Not wardrobe. _Piece._
Third, the endgoal. These people can have everything they've ever wanted, but it's still not enough because the world isn't this hyper idealized version they've painted in their heads. Of course the entitled would think they have all the answers.
The theme of X and Y is beauty, and the antagonists are already built on the idea that the world sucks because it's not _their_ centralized version of beautiful...and yet they do nothing to actually deliver on it?
I mean I guess they want to destroy the world to make that ideal beautiful world that they want… but team flare themselves never talk about wanting a beautiful world, it’s just Lysandre.
I would have gotten rid of all those scientist ladies and just used Malva instead. The game had an Elite Four member as part of an evil team, and didn't even take advantage of it at all! The admins could have just been Malva and Xerosic the whole game.
That's another thing that's missing in the story. If one of the most powerful trainers in the world is on your team, why doesn't she help?
Just out of curiousity: What do you mean they shocked everyone in announcing Z-A? Literally everyone thought they were gonna do either a Unova or Kalos legends game, likely Kalos as Unova is next up for remakes
In all of my circles I was either hearing a gen 5 or gen 2 remake. So I guess for me, that was surprising.
wow this is a good video. u scared me a bit when you handled it very well 🙏
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it!
What mkes Team Flare disapointing is that they use they same pokemon every other evil team uses, when they should be using beautiful ones. Their pokemon should have *flare* to 'em.
One other thing I wished is if the grunts were actually named. It makes no sense that all the trainers are named (except team flare grunts), when you only ever fight all the route trainers once (it made sense during Gold and Silver back when you could refight them), meanwhile with team flare it is at least implied that some of the grunts you fight you fight earlier in the game. For instance, in every Team Flare dungeon there is always one guy who is a chearleader for team flare.
Yeah, that's definitely a Pokemon-wide issue. I do wish they would change that though, it would give more continuation and interest to the grunts.
This comment just made me think of how Oleana had a team of beautiful Pokemon and then a Garbodor to reflect her inner ugliness. If not the entire team, having a single dedicated admin like Oleana on Team Flare instead of the scientists might've helped drive home some message about superficial beauty vs. true beauty or something. Likewise, Macro Cosmos's plans could've been foreshadowed better if Rose had scientists working on the energy crisis throughout the game instead of cramming the entire Eternatus subplot into Wyndon.
I like how the whole video doesn't bring up once that Malva is part of Team Flare. An Elite Four member affiliated with the villain group is huge, and yet it's so irrelevant in the plot of X and Y...
Worse than Macro Cosmos? Do u not count them as serious since just Chairman Rose was crazy and kind of Oleana. Macro Cosmos made zero sense and came out of left field. At least was in the whole story multiple points
That line I was intending to consider just the evil teams as advertised from the games. So considering Team Skull and Yell, but not Aether Paradise or Macro Cosmos. Cause I do agree, Macro Cosmos is probably worse.
@Cadeorade5 when you said SERIOUS evil teams i thought you meant Skull and Yell were out and, Aether and Macro Cosmos in.
i think about how disappointing x and y as a whole were quite a bit, and honestly i really think they were trying to recapture n's "im king of team plasma" moment without realizing why that moment has such an impact. weve already connected with n at this point, we might think hes a little weird but overall harmless, hes taking his journey alongside us and our friends so he cant be too harmful. and then boom. Hes king of team plasma. suddenly things start clicking and making a lot more sense to us, meanwhile lysandre's reveal feels more like a joke. because yeah of course the guy who is dressed in the same colors and keeps trying to justify killing a bunch of people on a mass scale to the player is evil. what the hell else were we supposed to think?
I agree with a lot of things this video says, but I have a few nitpicks that don't change the fact that Lysander and Flare are still disappointing (especially if they're the reason there aren't serious Evil Teams anymore).
Lysander's hypocrisy is intentional. Like Sarumon and a lot of Ghibli villains, Lysander thinks he has it all figured out and is proud of his insight and his biases (beautiful, helpful people over normies and scoundrels). Based on conversations I've had with regular people who are pleased with themselves (let alone dictators who think themselves an ubermench), guys like Lysander are more interested in using their logic to win people over than they are in listening to them; they put a lot of thought into their views and they're clearly beneficial, so why talk about anything else? As annoying as it is that Pokémon games don't give players a chance to talk, Lysander talking AT Dianthe rather than talking TO her is an intentional character trait; despite how alruistic he says he is, he's actually selfish and only wants his way rather than the natural way, which Dianthe favors (essentially, a more civil version of Genkai's differences with Toguro in Yu Yu Hakusho).
Despite his hypocrisy, Lysander DOES actually give a lot with his Ultimate Weapon Plan. He may love beautiful people and Pokémon, but he's convinced that the world as a whole will suffer if the chafe isn't burned away. In his own, insane way that's deluded by his high opinion of himself, Lysander is giving everything he loves to ensure that only fit people like him and Flare live on. The beauty of life will endure and Pokemon won't know the pain of servitude, all it'll cost is everything Lysander loves (aside from himself).
All of that said, Flare still has no presence, Lysander has no charisma and you never feel any danger despite Flare having the second most dangerous plan in Pokémon history. I forgot this was Lysander's deal until this video, but I never forgot Giovanni being the Viridian Gym Leader and Cyrus wanting to reboot the universe to have no emotions despite those games not being as fresh in my mind as X/Y (and I've never played any game more than once). This video is right on the money about Flare's failings.
Yeah that's something that I've heard a lot recently about Lysandre being intentionally hypocritical. And while that makes sense, I personally feel that it makes his character not as interesting or complex to look into. You make a lot of really good points here!
@Cadeorade5 I think villains who are easily believable can be very powerful (emotionally to a viewer), but I think you're right that Lysander's particular brand of believability isn't a great selling point. Like you compared him to, boring college professors might be real, but they're still boring.
Anywhoozle, this video essay was still so good that I never would have guessed it was your first if you never said so! Hope you make another one in the future.
The audio quality is great the editing is a bit bland though loved the vid subscribed!
Thanks! What do you think could be improved in terms of the editing?
look for the original version of the dialogue?
The way I think about Team Flare which makes them more tolerable to me personally is to think of the grunts and admins, the Scientists, and Lysandre and Xerosic as 3 almost completely separate entities. The grunts are basically buying into a Ponzi scheme, buying in only to never be paid back, and hardly know a thing about Lysandre’s goals; they’re regular people who were offered an opportunity to become wealthy and high-society and took it, unaware of the true evils of their leader. I’ve played XY so many times I damn near have it memorized and I still have no idea what the Scientists’ deal is, but they seem kind of like the grunts, just higher up on the pyramid but nonetheless being taken advantage of. Lysandre and Xerosic are the two who actually want to end the world and are meant to be taken seriously.
That's an interesting theory! To me it does feel very much like Lysandre is separate from everyone else on Team Flare, but they are forced to be one entity which is definitely one of my big problems with them that I talked about.
Took you some years to come to that conclusion.... next thing you're gonna tell us pokemon games dont really have much of a story...
LOL, I've known about this since I played X and Y, I've just started to make video essays.
WHAT DO WE THINK OF TOTTENHAM
LOL I was hoping someone would get the joke
A comment for the algorithm for you from me, my good sir
Thank you!
Talk about how Diantha is useless, weak and the worst champion. Seriously if she'd been the first female champion instead of Cynthia the next two champions wouldn't have been women as well.
And her design and name make it look like she has something to do with Diancie and that goes nowhere.
Yeah she just kinda feels absent from the story. But honestly, there’s a lot of characters like that in this game
I think the most disappointing thing about team flare is just how underutilized everything they do is. They are the closest thing we have to fascists in pokemon that I can remember. They should’ve ran with the idea of beauty= being morally correct. BW did an amazing job with criticizing real world issues so team flare was such a disappointment, and this is coming from someone who’s first game was X when I was 8 years old. (Heads up in an adult btw. That’s how old these games are). There whole thing is beauty and not one of them is a unique individual
Most definitely. As some who also grew up with these games, it disappoints how much they left on the table with what they could have done with team flare
read the gen 6 manga
gen 6 is currently being undervalued and gen 5 being overvalued.
Contrarian for the sake of being contrarian, you love to see it. XY were mediocre games that feel unfinished
Id actually argue their sense of style does tie into their overall goals. Team Flare and Kalos as a whole is heavily tied into the theme of beauty, and Lysandre/Team Flare says in the game that they believe they are better and more stylish than everyone else, thats why they will get to survive in the new world after the weapon goes off and nobody else. Their style is their mark of superiority over everyone else, if they dressed like bums I dont think their team revolving around a superiority complex in the beauty region would hit as hard as it already barely does
That’s a good point actually. I’m not sure that matters though because I don’t really remember them leaning into using their fashion as an aspect of being superior than others that much. Like I think they do it when they first meet the player, but not much after. I think they probably should have done it more, and from people that weren’t just grunts, it would have been more impactful then.
@Cadeorade5 oh yeah for sure I don't think they did it very impactfully at all and as a team they were still overall a mess, but I do think they somewhat tie into the region's ideas of balance and beauty, and even with the way the grunts frequently introduce themselves I feel like the phrase "The stylish Team Flare" is burned into my head for some reason. Might be gaslightling myself on that, but it seems familiar and I haven't played that game in like a decade so I'd hope i didn't make it up lol I just think them dressing closer to like Team Skull or something like that instead would definitely throw the vibe off for me since I did internalize their sense of style as integral to their identity personally. Fashion isn't a good pillar for an evil team per se, but they certainly had it
Lysandre did nothing wrong.
I think Lysandre is a well written villain, but I agree the team itself could have been improved. However, on the note of fashion, team flare is comprised of elites and wealthy individuals who believe they deserve to be saved. There’s multiple grunts who talk about having to pay to join team flare. Fashion IS directly linked to their goals/aspirations and their dreams are founded on their beliefs that they are superior to others- the “filth,” to borrow from Lysandre.
That’s a fair point, being a symbol of their superiority complex. However, if that is true, I wish we would’ve gotten to explore that more, like why do they deserve to be saved, and how their outfits make them feel superior to others, etc.
@@Cadeorade5 yeah that’s true enough. I think Pokémon as a franchise others suffers from this lack of deeper exploration due to their rushed time frames for development and the fact they still believe their target demographics is children despite the majority of fans being like 18+ at this point. I think to your point about “how their outfits make them feel superior,” we do actually see that, but it’s more played for comedy. Many of the grunts comment on your fashion being inferior to theirs, and when those grunts lose they’ll say something to the effect of “well at least I still look nicer than you,” which yes, is funny, but does also convey the idea that they dress the way they do to feed their egos. All that aside, I completely agree with the amendments made to the team toward the end of the video? Gen 6 has a very special place in my heart so I’m a tad biased in its favor haha
I think team flare could’ve been great. And I will say, their leader Lysander is a great evil villian. What I really like about team flares leadership, they used to be people who wanted to help the world become a better place, they helped the homeless, invested money in towns, cities, and researchers. But they overall got overwhelmed by how much darkness there still was in the world, believing that everything they did was pointless.
Yeah I can totally see that. Their backstory assuming that is really cool, it's just a shame that they decided to pretty much ignore that entirely with the writing in game. I felt that there is a small mention from Lysandre, but nothing in Team Flare's writing.
They’re all boring, copy and paste trainer characters that exist just to pad out the lackluster gameplay of X and Y.
A massive downgrade from Gen 5.
Agree that X and Y was a massive downgrade from Gen 5's games. But I do think there are still some good aspects of Gen 6!
Me who Kalos is one of my favorite game ans Unys the least
It’s all a matter of opinion! I still think there are aspects of kalos that are great! Just not the evil team imo
@@Cadeorade5 yeah, the teams clearly began to weaken with the time
I’ve always loved gen 6, but yeah this evil team has always sucked. Great video
Thanks! Yeah I’ve never been a fan of them
gen 7 on all the teams are literally worse and way more corny than team flare. your hard on hate for gen 6 is depressing
Nah gen 6 was 10000% better than gen 5, if i wanted to play a visual novel with some gameplay on the side i wouldve bought one. Gen 5 is actually unplayable.
Well that’s where we disagree. I enjoy the more story heavy games like gen 5 (hence why I’m talking about story in this video), and it sounds like you like more gameplay centric games.
@Cadeorade5 true and I agree with the majority of what you said about team flare they're definitely not written very well for the reputation game freak was trying to go for. Although I really enjoyed gen 6 as a whole I think most of that enjoyment comes from the novelty of it being the first mainline 3d pokemon game as well as the long awaited gen 3 remakes. That and mega evolution stands as the greatest gimmick they came up with until maybe terastallization.
Yes I do think there are aspects of X and Y that are severely underrated. For example, I don't think the music gets enough credit at all.
Huh? Gen 6 is worse in that regard, between team flare and the awful “friends” that you have to mash through their dialogue every other route. At least gen 5’s story is interesting, and outside of the beginning of the game **cough cough pokestar studios cough cough** black and white 2 are definitely closer to gen 4 in the amount of dialogue.