bravo! Not only it is relatively difficult to find info on yt about turkish music theory, but yours is besides remarkable! Thank you so much and all the encouragement to keep going!
BRO I SWEAR I've been going crazy over my tuning ever since I started learning oud because even if I tune each string to absolute perfection with the electronic tuner when I play the semitones are not at the same height in all the strings. I can't believe none of the other RUclips channels mentioned this, it seems this is the case for any non-tempered instrument so it's not something unique to turkish/ottoman music. Wish I had found this channel before and thank god I bought a turkish oud on sale a few weeks ago because that's how I came across this channel, my first oud is arabic.
Though actually the "büyük / küçük mücenneb" intervals better translate to "greater / smaller neutral steps". Historically that's what they are. Yalçın Tura complains about the fact that Maqam Rast is performed too much like a major scale or the Systematist's Ushshaq scale (which is called Çargah in the Arel-Ezgi theory, not at all related to maqam Uşşak), causing it to lose its identity. He argues that the third in Rast is supposed to be flatter than a single comma flat (that is, the 5/4 natural third at 386 cents or about 17 Holdrian commas), but not as flat as the Arabic quartertone. The dügah-segah interval ought to be a wide neutral interval (11/10 or about 165-170 cents is the largest size he deems acceptable) rather than a minor tone (10/9, 182 cents.) for it to be a sequence of T-K-S rather than T-T-B intervals.
The intonation of the Segâh note is a matter of longstanding debate in makam music. The Rast of the modern AEU theory is actually identical to the Systematists' Rast, for all intents and purposes. It's no accident: AEU is based on Rauf Yekta's 24-tone model, which is in turn based on the Systematist school. 17 Holdrian commas is extremely close to the schismatic 8192/6561 third (Pythagorean diminished fourth), which the Systematists used for Rast. Whether historical practice ever conformed to this model is still an open question. However, Turkish academic performances are nowadays certainly very close. The sonic identity of the Turkish Rast has changed to such an extent that many Turkish musicians or classical music aficionados from "elite society" cannot hide their disdain for certain performers because of how flat their third in Rast is. They feel that this aesthetic belongs to the Arabs and the low brow arabesk genre.
The greater undecimal neutral second at 11/10 is very well approximated by the 10 moria interval of the 72 EDO subset used on Turkish kanuns. I believe that it is often used for the interval between Dügâh and Segâh in Rast. Personally, I am almost always drawn to this interval when playing Rast on the oud, except in pieces with a strongly implied major harmony or many suspended cadences on Segâh, wherein I tend to gravitate upwards to 10/9.
I’m so glad you’re talking about Turkish and Araba Persia. Music they are all from original Assyrian Syriac Church music 🎼 that’s why Turkish Arab Persian music they been successful because they have a country.
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bravo! Not only it is relatively difficult to find info on yt about turkish music theory, but yours is besides remarkable! Thank you so much and all the encouragement to keep going!
BRO I SWEAR I've been going crazy over my tuning ever since I started learning oud because even if I tune each string to absolute perfection with the electronic tuner when I play the semitones are not at the same height in all the strings. I can't believe none of the other RUclips channels mentioned this, it seems this is the case for any non-tempered instrument so it's not something unique to turkish/ottoman music. Wish I had found this channel before and thank god I bought a turkish oud on sale a few weeks ago because that's how I came across this channel, my first oud is arabic.
It's a very nice and informative lesson. Thank you!
Thanks so much for this! There is so little info in English out there on Turkish music theory and tonaltiy
Great explanation Professor!
Though actually the "büyük / küçük mücenneb" intervals better translate to "greater / smaller neutral steps". Historically that's what they are.
Yalçın Tura complains about the fact that Maqam Rast is performed too much like a major scale or the Systematist's Ushshaq scale (which is called Çargah in the Arel-Ezgi theory, not at all related to maqam Uşşak), causing it to lose its identity.
He argues that the third in Rast is supposed to be flatter than a single comma flat (that is, the 5/4 natural third at 386 cents or about 17 Holdrian commas), but not as flat as the Arabic quartertone. The dügah-segah interval ought to be a wide neutral interval (11/10 or about 165-170 cents is the largest size he deems acceptable) rather than a minor tone (10/9, 182 cents.) for it to be a sequence of T-K-S rather than T-T-B intervals.
The intonation of the Segâh note is a matter of longstanding debate in makam music. The Rast of the modern AEU theory is actually identical to the Systematists' Rast, for all intents and purposes. It's no accident: AEU is based on Rauf Yekta's 24-tone model, which is in turn based on the Systematist school. 17 Holdrian commas is extremely close to the schismatic 8192/6561 third (Pythagorean diminished fourth), which the Systematists used for Rast.
Whether historical practice ever conformed to this model is still an open question. However, Turkish academic performances are nowadays certainly very close. The sonic identity of the Turkish Rast has changed to such an extent that many Turkish musicians or classical music aficionados from "elite society" cannot hide their disdain for certain performers because of how flat their third in Rast is. They feel that this aesthetic belongs to the Arabs and the low brow arabesk genre.
The greater undecimal neutral second at 11/10 is very well approximated by the 10 moria interval of the 72 EDO subset used on Turkish kanuns. I believe that it is often used for the interval between Dügâh and Segâh in Rast. Personally, I am almost always drawn to this interval when playing Rast on the oud, except in pieces with a strongly implied major harmony or many suspended cadences on Segâh, wherein I tend to gravitate upwards to 10/9.
Hi!
how much cent is one pythagorian comma?
great explanation!
I’m so glad you’re talking about Turkish and Araba Persia. Music they are all from original Assyrian Syriac Church music 🎼 that’s why Turkish Arab Persian music they been successful because they have a country.
Thank you for this wonderful video. It was very helpful :)
excellent.