C64 Repairathon! Part 1 - Intro and black screen on #1
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- Опубликовано: 9 сен 2024
- Part 2: • C64 Repairathon! Part ...
Time for a Commodore 64 repairathon! Due to length, I'm splitting this video up into multiple parts but you won't have to wait too long for them.
Jan Beta's repairathon video:
• Commodore 16 Repairathon
Geek With Social Skills Channel:
/ geekwithsocialskills
------ Parts featured in this video:
EEVBlog 121GW Multimeter: (Highly recommend it!)
www.eevblog.co...
Jonard Tools EX-2 Chip Extractor:
www.jonard.com...
Logic Probe:
www.ebay.com/i...
C64 Homebrew cartridge PCB:
www.ebay.com/i...
Magnetic Screw Holder: (also on eBay and Amazon)
www.harborfrei...
Universal ZIP sockets: (clones)
www.ebay.com/i...
RetroTink 2X Upconverter:
www.retrotink.com/
"I don't desolder because I hate these things and they do no good so I take my anger out and just rip the shield off"
6:00 ~ "oh uh haha whoops I kinda just wrecked the PCB by just ripping it off" 🤣🤣🤣
Ha!! I never thought you'd actually see my comment, they usually get buried ;) Yeah, but it's a 35+ year old PCB though! Got to treat those things like antiques. Nervous seeing you toss it around casually like that, but hey, long as you fix it ;) I always desolder/resolder it because it's simple enough (go get a TS100 soldering iron, TS100 open firmware off Github, a D24 tip, and 6S LiPo battery, it'll change your life), and it keeps the original parts together.
As to anything I can offer advice wise, the "this tells me nothing" part of using a probe, you'd be looking for logic toggling to abruptly stop on one of the pins. Common problem on a bus is a broken trace as it weaves between chips. To find it, poke I/O lines on each end of the bus traces (often at opposite ends of the board, but with C64, it kinda snakes around), see if one end isn't signalling. The break would be between there. Logic probes make that possible!
I guess it is kinda randomly asking but do anyone know of a good place to stream new movies online ?
@@jamiematthias2620 This is a bot, right?
Saw another comment from someone on a different video asking about something else completely unrelated to the video, also in a comment chain, also a month ago.
The hell is going on with youtube bots now? These just don't even make sense.
@@AceStrife It's probably to try'n evade spambot detection algorithms. If they have a ton of comments that don't get flagged as spam, it probably makes them seem more 'legit' and thus harder to automagically detect and block/delete them.
Feel free to make 40+ minute long videos
Definitely! You could do your short ones, then the odd large long one would be a treat. Great stuff!
totally agree! 👍
i like long videos aswell
Apparently "the algorithm" is now favoring longer 30-40 minute videos.
Thanks for the shout, sir! That's a beautiful old board you have there. I would have suspected the same things, the 5V rail seems to be a bit low, something might be shorted (if it's not an IC maybe even a capacitor?). Looking forward to the next parts! :D
Jan Beta you deserve the shout out Jan! Love your channel so much, actually found Adrian’s Channel through yours! Appreciate the content guys keep up the good stuff! It’s got me excited to start repairing some vintage computers myself!
esactly what I suspected. I was screaming for this actually!
Well, 19 minutes went by really quickly: a sign of a good video! Only speaking for myself, but longer videos would not be a problem. Thanks for posting, looking forward to part 2.
On the white labeled PLA: 8411 is probably not a date code; it appears to be a hexidecimal checksum, according to the author of "The C64 PLA Dissected." It makes sense, because so many people with 1982 C64's have 8411 PLA's and their machines were not all modified or upgraded. The PLA's with the labels seem always to be 82S100N's (probably Signetics) which were programmed for the task before Commodore had the capability to make their own clones, so they don't seem to suffer from the age-related failure of the mid-generation PLA's.
Thank you Adrian for the awesome video!
I got a C64 sometime around 1983-1984. I was 8.
My poor Commodore went through the trials of being owned by a little kid and didn't really survive. Watching these videos now I want to go hunt one down... I miss that ugly thing :D
Some excellent advice at the start of the vid. Don't start desoldering and pulling chips due to a black screen until you have checked your video cable! I would also recommend trying another tv or monitor. All my c64's work great on my 40" TLC tv as well as my pc monitor but just give me a black screen on my Toshiba tv.
Just wanted to comment to thank you for this wonderful series of videos. I landed here by suggestion of RUclips, I opened part #1 to waste a few minutes waiting for something and I ended up glued to the screen until the end of part #4.
Your videos are pure joy to watch. I admire your well-thought troubleshooting and use of your excellent equipment. I'm jealous, wish a had such a workshop! You have a clear diction, easily understandable by me as a non-native english speaker, and a sense of humor! (plus a lot of time on you hands, obviously!). This brings back a lot of memories too. I graduated in the 8-bit processor era, the 6502 is an old friend, did a lot of work on Synertek's KIM-1 and SYM-1 prototyping boards, including cabling control interfaces for the 6520 PIA and hand-coding assembly language. Later on I had my own self-assembled Acorn Atom, another 6502-based machine.
Please post more of this, you have a new fan. Thanks.
Awesome video! What I do not understand however is why you don't _desolder_ those shields? I was thinking 'he's gonna damage that board with that sidecutter' and boom, you just did that :( to an early rev board
@@adriansdigitalbasement From a purist point of view it was ... well ... "destabilizing".
I was repairing C64s as a bench tech back in the 80s. I haven’t seen the end, but I bet its a RAM chip.
Your methods are straightforward, but you missed the “Laying on of Hands”, the first check. What chip is burning hot? That might be the bad one!
Enjoyed watching.
Continuing down my path, you can sometimes diagnose a bad RAM, one blown open, not closed, by piggybacking a known good RAM on top of each chip until it works. Many times, multiple RAMs were blown at once, so you leave known good RAMs piggybacked as you do each one.
I haven’t thought about this in 30 years. Lol!
Nice job with the ZIFs. I remember when those cost an arm and a leg.
I would always keep the RF shield. Why? Because it shields RF ;)
I dont like the paper with aluminium foil on it, but the solid shields are cool.
@@adriansdigitalbasement I don't think we should recklessly take out everything we don't need. We are repairing these machines to preserve them for future generations, but future generations want to see the machines as they were, not as how we modify them. There are compromises to be made, i.e. we need to keep them in working state and usable, and it doesn't make sense to preserve cardboard shields that have been eaten away by time. But the metal shields certainly can be preserved and we I think we should. If it reminds future generations that people did use AM radios in the 80's, that IMO is enough reason to keep it.
Two weeks ago I spend several hours on two Amiga 500 RF shield to remove rust and make them look shiny again.
Check if the 556 timer is releasing the reset line. Should go from high to low at power on.
Easy to check with a multimeter.
www.devili.iki.fi/Computers/Commodore/C64/Service_Manual/Page_05.html
brings back memories. I used to repair these working for a retail store selling these beasts. usually loose chips. i've got some parts stashed away somewhere. I better put them to use.
Read your logic probe's specifications; it can easily withstand 12V.
Yeah, he’s worried about the chips breaking or accidentally interrupting the flow.
That tool looks like its meant for removing Terminator CPUs!
The world (and C64's) need more people like you! Loved this vid!
A caution, some masking tape will let sharpie bleed through. So it's a good idea test your combination before trusting it on something important (ask me how I know :)
Yep I can confirm this having tried it with cheap off brand painters tape from Dollar General lol!
Every time I see you have a new video I smile!! Thank you bud❤️
All three screws and non-broken standoffs.. What a find!!! :)
You know what would be nice would be a display unit that plugs into the back or somehow attaches there, like a music stand on a piano. You could use a display taken from an old laptop. Get busy! :)
First video I watched, so not sure what you do on other repairs, but you should really get an oscilloscope.
Using a logic probe is like searching for a coin on a parking lot, at night, using a candle.
Edit: I see you have a scope. A good one, too. Used it!
The ZIF commodore is a genius idea! Lovely video. It would be better if it was longer though, there is no reason to keep it to 20 mins.
Just this morning I was wondering where you've been, glad to see what you've been working on though! That's great :D
Great video, Adrian. Any idea when you will be returning to the Commodore PET, or the BBC Micro and Speccy?
there is people with piles of this devices laying while on ebay is mounting a crazy race to inflate prices and lot of scams
I love watching these videos so I can yell at the screen "CHECK THE CPU FIRST DAMMIT!!" or "check the reset line!" hahahaha
2:40 You have excellent taste in music sir! Cheers from Finland and thanks for the vids!
Cool video Mr. Black! Thanks for making great content.
Fun Fact: I was the person who suggested the 121GW name to Dave Jones. Maybe I should have asked for one in exchange for coming up with the name. Oh well...
@@adriansdigitalbasement Dave Jones is a big fan of Back To the Future and when he was talking about the development of his own custom multi-meter in the private area of his forum for users that have 1000+ posts I recommended the 121GW name for referencing 1.21 GigaWatts. If I recall correctly Mike from Mike's Electric Stuff chimed in immediately saying he agreed that it would be a great model number and others as well loved the Back to the Future reference. Not directly related to this but last weekened I got to see the Mindset PC in person and meet David Murray "The 8-bit guy" and also one of the other Dallas area youtubers that runs a retro-computing channel.
You win some, ya loose some, but in the end, at least you have more spare parts, which is always good thing this days in age.
Awesome video Adrian as always... looking forward to part 2!!!
Your logic probe clearly say you, there is a xenomorph nearby!
Drinking game: Every time Adrian uses Deoxit in this video, take a shot of any alcoholic beverage.
0:18 You should call your subs "The Commodore Sixty Force". ;)
Why not just go straight for the oscilloscope instead of messing about with the logic probe? Also the fault might be with one of the 6522's, it appears the previous owner already replaced at least one of them.
@@adriansdigitalbasement It certainly has the added bonus of looking "sci-fi" to someone who has no idea what it is :) The videos are great btw, keep up the good work!
It takes much more time with the oscilloscope than with a probe. Personally I don' t use a probe, but the Hz function of my multimeter: If Hz0 then pulsing. The Hz value itself is also usefull: You can compare it with a known good C64, if it deviates, this points to something suspicious.
That said, you still need the oscilloscope in many situations where the probe or multimeter doesn' t get you enough information.
I've always said that's a bad ass chip puller 🙂👍
2:40 man gotta love SCART. no need for any converter, just have a breakout connector for SCART into Composite, Component, RGB, S-Video and it works!
Since that machine was worked on already the quality of the solder joints should be inspected. You don't know how good the previous technician was - maybe some joints aren't soldered properly, or there's a lifted trace?
On the other hand, signs of extensive reworking aren't very promising. It could be that whoever was trying to fix the problem before you failed to find the source of the issue. This means that it could be a tricky case.
Adrian's BEEPING Basement! Part 1
@@adriansdigitalbasement I'm very beeping glad. Good work with everything, looks like another great series!
I'm really liking these videos.
Great work as usual mate. I really need to learn how to use either a logic probe or a scope to diagnose my machines :/
Looking forward to Pt 2.
Someone long-screwed the motherboard? Call Louis Rossmann!
Don't you wear a wrist strap when handling these chips?
@@adriansdigitalbasement Hi. Some ESD damage will not cause immediate failure, but will bite you months or years later, and you will not know why. You should always wear an ESD wrist when handling the chips individually. Besides, older CMOS technology is more sensitive to ESD damage than newer stuff. Thanks.
Humility level ;)
the suspense for Part 2 is killing me ;)
enjoy this content, so nice and very super nice editing no real boring stuff so top dollar stuff nice one
I love these hardware debugging Vids!
Nice one
Have you checked the contacts where you plug the video cable in? In that close up in the beginning of the video it looked a little corroded
Ah yes, blue painter's tape. An absolute must next to duct tape.
@@adriansdigitalbasement Blue painter's tape OTOH does. I've used it for such diverse applications as putting together a scintillation detector for gamma spectroscopy (did that yesterday in fact) and packing NRC-approved materials (yes, _that_ NRC). :)
Thanks man! I really enjoy your content, keep it up!
replace ram one by one. one of most common problems that i encountered.
RF Shield.. and that's why we desolder.. :P
Applies removable painter's tape to label the unit and list issues.
*Writes unit number and lists issues permanently on the shielding on the PCB.*
Thanks for music suggestion :D Synthax Terror - great for mainframe cobol development. And later should help in resurrecting my 2 C64c :D
Great video so far! I’m at 6:30 right now.
When you were testing the chips on your good board, we could not see the screen. But it is fine. Just a heads up.
For some reason, i delayed watching this video for several hours. Maybe because of the title? I agree with @zer0bot's comment to make 40+ minute long videos; this is good content, and tbh it's a funny ending to tell us to subscribe/wait for the next one, after introducing the next system..
but maybe next video actually cover two systems? it's ok if it's >20 minutes?
like a lot of other youtubers do this stuff pretty in-depth, like you, and I'm happy to sit through a 45 minute video of them diagnosing an IBM PCjr or what have you
That DIP IC extractor is also available from Digikey:
www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=EX-2%20-%20DIP%20IC%20Extractor
Please note that the latest version of SID is only 9V, not 12V, so thats something to keep in mind when swapping SIDs between machines. Source: www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/SID
How does that chip puller desolder so fast!
You can only remove socketed chips with this beast, when chips are not in a socket but directly soldered onto the motherboard, you still have to desolder them with an iron
Hi DJ Slinus , I did know that I was just trying to be amusing😛
@@anoopsahal1202 oh I thought about that before I wrote my comment xD but I left it there so others who might not understand know what this is actually for
DJ Slinus I would quite like to see some one try to use it on a soldered chip👺
@@anoopsahal1202 that would totally break it😂
Awesome! Thanks for sharing the experience! Maybe you have already fixed the machine, but voltage seems low. Something dragging it down? dirty power switch? Since the 556 was bodged, I'd check that out if the machine gets a proper power-on reset.
Great Adrian
I always remove the SID if it is socketed after opening the unit and then do a dead test. I had 3 407s that only had bad SIDs and nothing worked until they were removed. One of the C128s I repaired had all the socketed chips bad and everything else was ok. We need a database to have a lessons learned for troubleshooting. Right now we having many sites to go to that give us help to cut down the time troubleshooting but wouldn't it be nice to have it all in one place? I love your videos but just wanted to give my thoughts.
Lovely video, definitely a thumbs up from me. 👍
I have an early revision C64. It has a black screen and even the dead test cart doesn't do anything.
2:42 a reading of 55.3% humidity? That is kind of high.
is there no sort of standby voltage that requires unplugging the power supply?
Hello Adrian, looking for some advice here. I'm also trying to recover a faulty C64 and building my own ZIF testing C64 based on a working one as yours. Is there a chance to share a couple of pictures of the video output of my faulty C64? Maybe you have seen these video patterns before...
I appreciate your advice. Thanks!
Hi Adrian, I am interested to do some ZIF socketing on my machine as well. I have a 250407 PAL version. My current issues I scratching my head about is, that the ZIF sockets allways conflicts with the capacitor "above" the chip in all cases. So what did you do with those capacitors? Put them under the mainboard as SMD, or what was your approach to that issue?
Hi Adrian, you said araound 16:30 min to stay away from VIC and SID chip because logic probe could damage both SID and VIC? But you have connected the probe to 5V right? How could this damange the chips? Thanks in advance for explanation
I'd say it's might be one of the CIAs. I had 3 machines so far with shorted CIAs and the same symptoms.
I *MAY* have just bought the jonad ex-2 from mouser once i saw it in action.. no more bent pins for me
Try to get your video signals from elsewhere; the AV socket might just be wonky!
Where do you buy 99% isopropyl? I have a very limited supply because no store around me sells it in their pharmacy any more. The highest I can ever find any more is 91%.
:/ a Vic II and SId with the start chip number of 65xx is a 5V only Chip. The 72xx and 85xx (found in the later C64 and C128) use 5V & 12V. The Q is, which is better? Many would say the 5V 65xx chips are for better sound on the SID and better (clearer) video on the Vic II.
The SID provides the Dynamic pulse for Dynamic RAM, so it is needed.
One test you should do is check the reset line to see if it goes from Low to High (or High to Low) when you turn it on. When you flick the switch the output of the 555 timer hold down the Reset Line to the CPU for about 4 seconds, and that is readable on the logic probe when it goes from one state to the other. If there is no change in the reset line then there is something wrong with the 555 timer chip.
Did you try connecting it through the RF? Sometimes the video port is screwed. If you're getting data it's doing something. I have a C16 that will have jailbars on the boarder or at least vertical lines when hooked up to my CRT. On a LCD no jailbars. Looks perfect. Dunno why.
Where do I buy your shirt?
*BECAUSE I LOVE IT!*
"Why didn't they put sockets in? good question, 'laziness' ? idk ..." says the guy who rips off a ground trace from the motherboard because he's to "lazy" to desolder the few remaining pads from the RF shield.
Look... , no hard feelings, I really enjoy your video's and learn a lot from them but don't suggest people are lazy because they don't do things your way, not everybody has sockets laying around.
Otherwise, great video.
I totally agree that it's not "lazy" to not socket a chip, because it's just as much work either way. Maybe they didn't have sockets, maybe they just don't like sockets because they fail, who knows. That said, I don't think not being careful with an irreplaceable chip is equivalent to inadvertently cutting a trace. Fixing a trace is a free and easy fix, fixing a chip you killed during a bad solder job is not.
@@brianv2871 True, fixing a trace is indeed an easy fix compared to fixing an irreplaceable chip. I only used this example because of the irony. Thank you for your polite reply and feedback. I like it when people can have an opinion and others sharing their opinion without sending toxic comments :) Have a nice day sir.
Repairathon that only lasted 20 mins please upload longer videos :P
where can i find that chip remover?
It doesn't make sense to test the Kernel ROM as the dead test cart bypasses it. But it does require a fully operational character ROM! So socket that one and test it. Repairing a few C64's now, I came to realize that the dead test cart are not a silver bullet. They need a lot of things to be working well in the system before they work. At this point I use dead test just as a RAM test utility.
Adrian is right: The Dead Test cartridge uses the Ultimax mode (that way it can bypass the KERNAL), but because the Ultimax had no character ROM (in fact, no ROM at all), the C64 disables the cartridge ROM in Ultimax mode. The Dead Test cartridge is therefore forced to provide its own character set, and it does.
@@danielmantione that's not what I noticed. I had a 5 pin C64 that the dead test cart wasn't working on. It ended being one of the pins on the CHR ROM not soldered correctly. When I fixed that, dead test (and computer) booted correctly.
@@leonkiriliuk Could it be one of the chip select lines? Because if it was specifically one of those lines, the char ROM would have disrupted the bus, preventing the dead test to initialize the VIC-II. That's the only explanation that I can see. Try to remove the char ROM, the dead test will work.
Why not put sockets in? Because they have a high failure rate over time unless you buy super expensive quality ones. We run into this with old synths. I see you talk about the machined sockets later, but my synth repair friends tell me even those fail often, unless they are the 3M or other high-end ones. I haven't run into this myself, however.
Yes, but it's better to destroy a failed socket during removal than it is to damage an irreplaceable chip like a SID. Sockets are sacrificial.
Where are you going to get the 1.21 jigawats that you need for that meter? They don't sell plutonium in grocery stores.
Where did you get the T-Shirt??
Thanks for the video :), whats the wire holder name at 7:36?
@@adriansdigitalbasement Great.. Thanks for the tip 👍😊
This extraction tool looks definitely interesting. I have seen it on amazon.de, so it is available over here. Over US$62, though. Well, actually no problem, I rather buy not cheap, but good :-)
I really like the breadbin C64s, maybe one day I'll get my hands on one, are they complicated when it comes to maintenance or other stuff like that? AFAIK the PSU is probably what worries me the most, I've heard about the horror stories of Commodore cutting corners on PSUs... Is the C64 affected by these corner cutting measures?
@@adriansdigitalbasement so about the PSU, is there is an alternative to the killer PSUs that Commodore shoveled in with C64s (like an existing PSU that could be adapted to a C64) or will I have to roll my own? (I'd ideally prefer the former, but I'm not afraid to build my own PSU from scratch)
Truthfully, I'm rather a newcomer when it comes to non-PC retrocomputing (well expect for older Apple hardware, the rest has always fascinated me, and after seeing your "One Commodore to rule them all" video, it really piqued my interest in older Commodore computers)
@@adriansdigitalbasement interesting... Anyways thanks for the clarification,
I have never got to own a C64 in my entire life. I have always wanted one but can never find one. Anyone know where I could get one?
I need buy one C64! Original NEVER mini
Probably look at FPGA
have you recommended some of the tools that you use in your videos to JanBeta...I think that if ya did, it would help him a lot with his repairs...also considering you both are content creators and have the same love for Commodore it would be a good thing
Yeah RF shielding... it mattered when TV was RF and people listened to the radio. But in 2019 with digital TV and people listening to streaming audio and MP3s, you'd have to deliberately try to find a case in which it mattered. LOL
This ham radio operator disagrees. :)
@@adriansdigitalbasement The cardboard rf shield is just there to pass the FCC test and as I see it causes the chips and board to over heat.
I remove them but save it. The metal shield are great heat-sinks as well. Most of these old boards have TTL chips but I still put them in anti-static foam as you did when you said I will save this SID for later. I never lay them on the bench. I still have ESD training I had back in the 80s and it still applies. I would think you would want to show how it should be done.
You did not give the link for the dead test cart.
@@adriansdigitalbasement Oh I knew he made diagnostic carts, dead test carts & the full harness but did not know he made DIY PCB cards.
😍
I use to have a c64 back in the day even a c128
i need to save up and get a C64 :(
In December there will be a new release of a porber C64 reboot. not like the mini which only has a keyboard for decoration. It will have a full functioning one. It should be around 100$ as far as I heard.
Nice MSI chipset heatsink
As much as I love watching your videos, it drives me nuts that you half arse so much stuff :(
what are your settings on your retrotink?
Like earlier remarks, your not really carefull someday you will have a dead chip because of static discharge. And the way you removed those chips is a horrible way, dont like the way you ripped the ground of the board.. Means more repair and less authenticity
❤️👍
ESD