French M14 Conversion - the Gras in 8mm Lebel
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 11 окт 2024
- / forgottenweapons
The French adopted the Gras as their first mass-issued metallic cartridge rifle in 1874, replacing the needlefire 1866 Chassepot. Quite a lot of Gras rifles were manufactured, and they became a second-line rifle when the 1886 Lebel was introduced with brand-new smokeless powder and its smallbore 8mm projectile. When it became clear that the quick and decisive war against Germany was truly turning into the Great War, France began looking for ways to increase the number of modern Lebel rifles it could supply to the front.
One option that was used was to take Gras rifles from inventory and rebarrel them for the 8mm Lebel cartridge (which was based on the Gras casehead anyway). These could be issued to troops who didn't really need a top-of-the-line rifle (like artillery crews, train and prison guards, etc). Then the Lebel rifles from those troops could be redirected to the front.
The rebarreling process was done by a number of contractors, using Lebel barrels already in mass production. The 11mm barrel from the Gras would be removed, and only the front 6 inches (150mm) or so kept. A Lebel barrel and rear sight would be mounted on the Gras receiver, and that front 6 inches of Gras barrel bored out to fit tightly over the muzzle of the new 8mm barrel. This allowed the original stock and nosecap to be used (the 8mm barrel being substantially smaller in diameter, and not fitting the stock and hardware by itself). It also allowed the original Gras bayonet to be fitted without modification, since the bayonet lug was also on that retained section of barrel. In addition, a short wooden handguard was fitted. This was designated the modification of 1914, and an "M14" was stamped on the receivers to note it.
These guns are of dubious safety to shoot, since the retain the single locking lug of the Gras, designed for only black powder pressures. However, this was deemed safe enough for the small amount of actual shooting they were expected to do.
To be honest I saw "French M14 Conversion" and thought about the U.S. M14 being converted into some weird fashion but instead I learned some great history. Great vid
+USAirsoft Dear God, could you imagine an M14 in 7.5×54mm?
USAirsoft You're a little off the beaten path here; Scott.
And I as well
he is a man of many hats and helms
And pants.
I don't know if it's just the recording, but sound of that gun shooting is pretty badass...very throaty
But then the real question: are there imperial era Chassepot converted to Gras, then updated to M80, then rebarelled to 8mm, then updated to M14?
Most probably not
Is it just me or does it actually sound majestic when firing?
my thoughts exactly. i use headphones and it could have been an 8.8 flak with that boom.
*Gras Mle 74 M80 M14* _Gras Model of 1874, Modification of 1880, Modification of 1914._
Single-shot rifle rechambered for _Balle N_ in the 1930s.
Honestly, I thought it was an American M-14 Rechambered in 8mm Lebel.
Disappointed, but the Gras is an interesting rifle anyway.
Same
+McBearGrylls imagine having to modify the extractor to handle that glorious rimmed cartridge.
I thought the same thing. Btw what the hell is the meme in your profile pic called, I've been trying to find that shit forever.
+Josh Callejas Zerg Face, with a custom ATF insignia, for when they shoot your dog because they suck at their job.
+Mike S Should they pronounced it "MLE-14"?
The awesome thing with you Ian, is that you manage to make live a gun history that was almost forgot here, in the gun's original country. If it was not for you, never would I have seen a Gras firing, and little would have I known It had seen use in Greece.
So thank you for your videos! Keep up the good work!
Quite an intimidating sound to it when fired.
+Brian Colborn “BCNation” it's all about how it is recorded.
Sounds like an new audio setup, I guess Patreon is working.
FirstDagger maybe they started working with dice for bf1 and dice told them how to get good audio recording :V
nah... that's impossible... is it?
Illusive Badger considering they had to learn about ww1 weaponsand that they are now really popular in the bf community along with the great war channel, i think they do, in the bf community they even know about youtubers that have less than 10k subs, i don't see why they would not know about forgotten weapons, not after bf1 reveal at least.
iota-09
By now I am sure all sound recording for Battlefield 1 is already done.
That gun sounds godly. I love that thunderclap bang.
I love how you can always find the appropriate headgear for the vids you make. Absolute gold.
So there is another "M14" that is important in historical rifle production that came before the 1950s M14 ! I did not know that-- thank you. Very informative video!
Duffle cut- didn`t know there was a word for that! My K98 Mauser was chopped down in 3 places very badly when I bought it- $50 back in the late 80s in a second hand store in Irvington NJ. Yep, you could really find stuff like that in NJ back then.
Pretty interesting expediency. Great call on saving the front 6" of barrel and making a fit over sleeve out of it. Saved quite a bit of time and material i'm sure. I love interesting old military rifles, their variations and reissues. Great use of the period hat. The French always had distinctive ones.
A friend of mine owns a Gras that was smoothbored into a 12 gauge shotgun. It's impossible to find shells for that thing.
Just how can't you find 12 gauge ammo?
@@nazarderkach9320 There are different lengths of 12 gauge cartridges. There are for example 65mm, 67mm, 70mm, 76 and 89mm length. The full designation of a shotgun caliber is "caliber 12/76" for example. And the length is when the cartridge is unfolded (they are folded shut at the front) before you shoot them.
"Hey, guys I bought an M14 online and it just arrived!"
"Cool, let's see it."
*opens box*
"SON OF A BITCH!"
Yeah, they have their own M16 as well.
Trey Westcot Oh, man we could troll stupid firearms buyers forever!
+Dan Morgan Lol...yeah, probably putting ideas in someone's head.
Trey Westcot Yeah, the lawyers who are waiting for the ensuing litigation.
The more you study this gun, them ore interesting it gets. Heck, it was manufactured in Steyr, Austria, only to be sold to the Italians who were originally allies until War broke out. This means they immediately turned the guns they bought from Austria to attack Austria. I'm also certain a fair number of these ended up in Serbia.
Frankly I'm not into guns at all but this channel is so interesting, I can't help myself to watch it. Good job ;)
You are on the way to Conversion to the Way of Gun Jesus.
Dear sir.
The Steyr company who produce Gras rifle for Greece,
It was not in Germany, but on Austria-Hungary (now in Austria),
Greece after the initial order, bought and French Gras rifle
Greek army use them until the 1940-41 war, on second line duties,
After that, only partizans used on 1941-44 and in civil war 1946-49
Kind of hilarious that this the second time Ian has fired a second-line WWI French rifle with extractor issues.
These are not particularly my thing as firearms go, but I have to acknowledge it's place in history, it's adaptability and quality, and that thunderous report upon firing, just wow
Saw 8mm Lebel and M-14 in the title and thought, Holy shit! This was a thing?!
Not disappointed though. Single shot bolt actions such as the Gras are intriguing.
The Kepi makes the non-functioning extractor seem like a rather dapper way to shoot the rifle. 'Oh drats, it appears the case is still within the confines of the bore" *taps rifle on the ground* 'Reginald, please hand me another of those fine rifle cartridges'
I have the let's say Lebel M-14 with the N present and also the Gras 11 mm ,,they are both fine rifles ,,,THANKS FOR THE VIDEO AND INFO !
Greece used alot of Gras rifles, first on the greco-turkish war of 1897 it was the standard issue service rifle. after that it was a rear or filling gap rifle when shortages of the new standard rifle Mannlicher-Shoenauer M-1903 apeared in varius cases. the gras was used in the first balakn war 1912 by the Garibaldi "redshirt" philellenes volunteers as they were not available new Mannlicher M1903 to equip them, which lead to dissatisfaction since the black powder cartridge was revealing the shooters position. the gras also used by many guerillas equipped by greece in varius revollutions vs the ottoman empire. The greek army never rebarelled gras but i dont know if the french send some M14 in 8mm during the WWI when they send lebel and Berthier rifles. the Gras even used in WWII in very few numbers (in non combatant troops like mule drivers and cooks etc). many of them were converting to shotguns for civilian use in local greek gunsmithing shops after they were putting out of service from the army.
I like the period-specific military hats/gear you wear during these videos!
Great sound in this episode, especially the rifle report.
Very cool - thanks for sharing ! I have a Prussian capture Chassepot barreled action ( carbine w/turned down bolt handle and Kaiser Wilhelm cipher). I presume it is a M1871 but not being an expert have always been curious of it's origins.
That rifle report is delicious. Thanks for the excellent content as always, Ian!
The weirder, the better. Thanks Ian.
I have always been interested in converted arms. Like this one. I have always kept my eyes open for an 1891 Mosin Nagant with the M98 Mauser bayonet conversion.
I do own an 1892 Berthier that was converted to a 5 shot and then later to Balle "N". The story being that it was brought back from Viet Nam but, alas, no paperwork for provenance.
Ian is the man who wears many hats. Literally.
That french 8mm round sounds when you fire it like its really powerful
fierce sounding rifle.
iain, do you practice drills on a rifle before filming? your movements always look so precise and efficient as though you've used a particular firearm for years.
Ian, there has been some research that seems to indicate that the Chassepot cartridges were actually NOT combustible paper. The paper-wrapped powder charges were actually wrapped in SILK gauze. Natural silk is flame-retardant and prevented the case from burning and depositing ash in the chamber. Various shooters have experimented with this on RUclips. They find that coating the paper case with a flame retardant solution like Borax keeps the chamber clean for effective shooting.
Interestingly a large number of the Greeks stationed in Crete in May 1941 were armed with the Gras 8mm Balle D & N but each soldier carried a few dozens of rounds of ammo as the British were unable to supply them, they had no stocks in such antique calibres, France had already fallen to Hitler, and mainland Greece had just been occupied. The battle between the German "Kampfgruppe Schätte" (with Gebirgs-Jäger) and local Cretan militia and Greek infantry, near Kastelli on May 23 or 24, 1941, is interesting because 600 Greeks were armed with Gras and held the ground for a whole day before they were overwhelmed by superior German force.
One thing i find interesting is that these are one of the only black powder rifles converted to smokeless that are apparently safe to shoot! And they started off as needlefires!
The French were really way ahead on weapon technology all the way into WWII. Even back in the day or swords they were top notch. First to have smokeless powder rifles. One of the first to have repeaters. They also produced the general tank design that we use today.
"i have to e a btit more careful with it" *proceeds to bash it in the ground*
+iota-09 I was gently tapping it on the top of my boot. :)
Forgotten Weapons now now, no need to be so modest and gentle, if that gun survived 130 years of use, it can survive a bash to the ground.
once.
You should totally try and get your hands on a H&K G11, that would be sweet.
Very cool history on this rifle.
That noise! Amazing
As always Ian, another first rate video !! Thank you for what you do!
Looks and sounds beautiful
The french cap totally suits Ian!
I'm not even kidding I was just looking at a pair of these today for sale, and I was thinking "I wonder if Forgotten Weapons has a video on these.
I really like rifle conversions like this!
Looks like you are in the AZ desert, I have family in Apache Junction and Tucson. Great state. Unfortunately, I live in CA. We visit often. By the way love the rifle!! Enjoy watching you shoot all and any of the Fire arms. Thank you.
I have seen these for sale in the past. Only in the ads I saw, it as NOT recommended for shooting as the actual firearm was originally manufactured so early. Weird. The one your holding fires just fine.
That is quite the piece of history!
What a mean sound that rifle has...
+Terrorkekx That rifle sounds SO powerful. I wish I could use the gunshot in a game or something.
These refit-rework-convert-repair-refurb rifles collect a remarkable history on the way. Like the Russian m/91 with a 100 year history of service. But the Gras started already in the black powder era. This 1860s-1890s period must have been a nightmare for the armorers! Conversions every 10 years...
If that was a chassepot too it would be epic!!!
Nice video!
Another top notch video. btw, it must be a pain in the ass being left handed, with the amount of rifles you shoot.
that thing sounds awesome
Steyr is in Austria!!! Never tell an austrian he is german XD
anyway, nice video.
Greetings from steyr, Austria ;)
I was just scrolling to see who will explain that to Ian. :) it like you say for a scotch man its an english man. No no.
+yosh and a terrible wall painter :)
yep that as well XD
Love the sound of this gun
Isnt Steyr Austrian and not German ?
+timinator855 Yes. Oops.
+Forgotten Weapons Where'd you get the kepi?
+Forgotten Weapons not to worry unless our elections go way better than expected it might very well be your statement get corrected by the loonatics from the right wing...
+Zeugschmiede/Toolforge You call them "loonatics" for knowing they are German? I think you need to take a look in a history book. I don't think anybody wants to unite with the BRD these days and i sure don't blame them :D
+timinator855 The state would be Austro-Hungarian Empire.
About 40 years ago I was delivering appliances in very rural W.V. we always offered to junk the old appliances for our customers . I was moving an old gasoline powered washing machine and a rifle fell out from behind it .The lady of the house said she had not seen it in twenty years and that her father had brought it home from the Great War and ask me if I wanted it , so I took it home. That weekend I took it to an old gun shop where I did a lot of business , they identified it for me as a French military rifle chambered in 8mm LaBel, I traded it for 4 used Lyman steel bullet molds . I think I got the better part of the deal.
If this is yours, you can fix the wood by cutting a groove on the inside of both sides. Then, making a wooden ring and fixing it in place with wood glue. It's a simple, solid, hidden repair. Tho i would do it on metal working machinery rather than by hand or wooden machinery.
I caught what you did there Ian at 4:24 "leap ...frog" :P Clearly something the French would do!
I'm a terrible person lol.
Awesome rifle though.
I have one of these with the M80 modification, but not the M14. It has been shortened to a carbine at some point in its life too. Serial numbers on bolt and barrel match, but numbers on stock and bayonet don't!
9:45 You'd have trouble extracting if you were 140 years old, it's nothing to be ashamed of!
french cap and belgian camo ? nice try.
+Bart Bols I think you meant that 2/3 belgians come from france, otherwise you're lying ^^
And still, the french and belgian camo have nothing in common.
+Bart Bols Ooh.
I'm sry I didn't notice it :|
I remember reading that early smokeless powder was very corrosive and that's probably why they only expected these to do a small amount of shooting perhaps? Those rounds fouled up the barrel and ate it up.
I had to look through some older magazines but found this information. The French couldn't produce enough Lebel's or converted Gras rifles so they bought some Remington rolling block rifles and 15,100 Winchester Model 1894 carbines. Issued to motorcycle couriers, artillery troops and transport units. The whole lot of Winchesters were then sold through Belgium after the war to "unknown buyers".
this is actually pretty ingenious
Damn, that big boy is pretty loud. Ôo
Tip:
You can improve the time period immersion during test firing segments like this by covering his ponytail with your thumb while he's firing.
Personally, I like to imagine that Ian is a younger relative of Napoleon III with the same facial hair.
8mm libel is one of the coolest sounding cartridges i have ever heard
You know when you're on the battlefield you dont give a poop of the gun noise ^^
04:20 "The French leapfrog [...]" Nice one Ian ;D
At the end the 8mm Lebel is the son of the 11 Gras. ¿ Any idea if the french also convert Gras carbines in ww1?
May have come from pacific and not Europe, possibly from New Caledonia. Duffel cuts were more common from navy/marines, and lots of french second line arms in the colonies.
Excellent video!
That's a good looking rifle.
Excellent video
So do you believe it's at all possible there was a Chassepot converted into a Gras then chambered for Lebel? That'd be quite the Frankenstein.
+Joseph V Definitely possible, and I am sure they are out there - I just haven't come across one myself yet.
+Forgotten Weapons Well good luck, hope we get to see that. I imagine you've got an extensive list of things you're looking for, ever considered making a video talking about those that you're searching for?
Nice Képi !
Ian, I'm seeing SGT Markoff from Beau Geste.... laugh I tell you, laugh....
The Germans used a barrel sleeve when they converted a load of old black powder rifles to 8mm (can't remember the model but I can get about 20 from a friend) - its a relatively thing walled tube with the muzzle end turned over and the 8mm barrel sticks out about 1/4"(6mm) or so. They sold a heap to the Turks who then sold them off a few decades ago. As for the 'duffle cut' stock - if the rifle is yours, just strip it down and insert a 'dutchman' into the joint - its a piece of wood shaped like a bowtie >< (another name for it) - just use a sharp chisel and watch where you put your fingers when cutting the hole for the insert.
+Bruce Lee I think you are talking about the Gewehr 88, which never used black powder. The Gewehr 88 has a barrel jacket to prevent the barrel from contacting the stock.
Quite the report
Modify or convert this gun a little more and it will use STANAG magazines, standard rails and will be able to replace the FAMAS.
just got one for $300!!!! nice. I knew there was something weird about it so I picked it up
What is a duffel cut? I've never heard that term before.
+Trey Westcot Guns brought home as souvenirs had to fit in a duffel bag, which usually required cutting the stock into two pieces. This was typically done so that the cut could be hidden under a barrel band when reassembled.
+Forgotten Weapons
Ok. I'm familiar with that procedure, just never heard it called that. Thanks very much for clarifying. As always, outstanding content. I never miss an episode of Forgotten Weapons or In Range. At first I thought you were carrying an Indian Enfield single shot .410 in your latest IR video. I suspect the Martini was a better choice for ease of loading, not to mention power.
+Trey Westcot I seriously consider using the .410 Enfield there, but I don't think it would have been capable of knocking down some of the plates.
+Forgotten Weapons Agreed.
+Forgotten Weapons Find some kind of rare specialist explosive rounds for it, obviously.
I have this rifle converted to 24 gauge. My grandfather brought him to Brazil from France
This is it. This is the ultimate vampire-hunting rifle. It's got the French rifle "holy water plug" for added ballistic holiness. The original bottle-nosed bullet of 8mm Lebel ammunition is just like a tiny stake. Replace it with a jacketed wooden bullet, and you are ready to go hunt some night-biters.
8mm Lebel is a hot round even by modern standards. I wouldn't shoot that damn stop-gap, emergency rifle with full-snort 8mm Lebel.
I really liked this one.
Very Interesting I am guessing if History Channel had you telling Tales of the Gun it would still be on tv anyways I love your stories and its amazing how well the stock is preserved for the guns age also all the Modifications the French have a very interesting History with their guns who better to tell their story than you
The Rifle said "I wanna go places" and it did.
nice kepi!
C&Rsenal blew up a couple of these guns while trying to fire them using _reduced loads_. Firing one of these guns is extremely risky.
Your Cappie (don't know if I am spelling that correct) looks very cunning.
Actually, I bet in practice, that often was the loading procedure.
An awesome history
..Prussia was the 1st to use the needle breech loader.. in the Franco/Prussian war... a hard lesson learned..(used by troops)
Well explained Ian. Thank you. 😎 👍
great video, love the history behind a fairy unknown rifle. At least to me!
Pump action duffel cut 😮
Nice Kepi you're wearing! Is it French, what is it ? Why don't you make a Episode about your nice hats you wear !
bonne chapeau monsieur!!!!
Cool Kepi bro'.