At 51, I now value the wisdom of older Godly men of humility more than ever. I used to pursue "hipness", "being relevant" and other cultural trends - but it was all based in my own immaturity. I'm still not where I need to be- but I've learned that Christian gurus usually disappoint. And it's my fault for looking to them and being let down. The most recent for me is our last church in Indianapolis, the TFG pastor went woke- which ironically is when I woke up and left. Now that church is back peddling like crazy as people leave. I really appreciate this channel which is putting an eloquent voice to my thoughts over the past 3 years. Keep it up John- you are doing a great job!
@Mark Perrine AMEN to that! God is truly humbling us. . .and giving us more time. Alot of us 50 + who have been walking with Christ for decades, are seriously seeing the light! Thank you for your transparency.✝️💕
Jon, I'm were you were with Piper. He had previously influenced me, but this nuanced stance on race and CRT, and then the 2016 election - opened my eyes. I avoid him. Big red flags.
I can't stand JP but it for a completely different reason. When he wrote that blog condemning Trump back on January 20, 2017 I completely disowned him. He was actively stabbing "our side" in the back (ie helping Hillary) on his self-righteous pedestal. The pattern that's been developed over my lifetime is that the more popular a Christian "leader" becomes - the more I doubt their veracity. Such as Josh Harris (I Kissed My Marriage Goodbye). Rob Bell, Rick Warren (signatory to global warming pact), Falwell for obvious reasons and many more. We should take our eyes off "gurus" and put them on solely on Jesus.
Praise the Lord for this conversation! You nailed it ! So many leaders have put yokes on the sheep that are unbearable! I have been fighting this for 20 years in my walk with the Lord!
How is pastor JP even backstabbing "our side"? I don't support Trump because I am a republican, but for policies that are more attuned with the scripture and constitution, and mostly because Democratic Party has completely lost their minds and their visceral hatred of God is so apparent. However, a pastor who will not speak out against government leaders for their immorality is no pastor at all. Prophet Nathan spoke against David for his sexual immorality. Will you condemn Nathan for his excoriating words against David? As Christians, we need to remember that Jesus is our king, not Trump or Biden. As much as, Trump has done good by exposing hypocrisy of the media and democratic party, we shouldn't be imitating his behaviors like I have seen here.
Its funny that you dumped John Piper because he dumped on the sins of your favorite politician. Then you encourage others not to get caught up in “gurus” or personalities. Haha. You dont see the problem there? I mean Id much rather have John Piper praying for me than Donald Trump. But Trump is without question the only possible answer in this election.
Thomas Cho Sir God has used flawed people throughout history. You can look at the Bible for proof of that! You may not approve of President Trump but without a doubt God placed him in office the first time and we need to be praying that God places him in office for a second term. Yes the Democratic Party has lost its mind to the point that it is totally evil. Its agenda is power and corruption at the highest level and if they attain the highest office in America this country will be done! America as we have known it will be over forever. Donald Trump is here “for such a time as this” and I pray God will give us four more years of His grace. We are definitely in the last days. The labor pains are quickening and time is short. Be thankful for out President and pray for him. Pray for his re-election. No man is perfect, especially not myself....how about you?
Jon. This maybe your best work. Your analysis on Piper is spot on!!! I couldn't quite put my finger on it. It's his imbalance on these topics!!!! Jon you really have a gift. Keep up the good work. Greg
I like JM too, but even JM is not infallible. Only the Holy Spirit and His teaching of God's Word is Infallible. JM says stuff that is charitably foolish , just like any man, including you and me. When Jesus died on The Cross and the veil of the tent was rent from top to bottom, He cleared the way we could interact with Him without anyone in the way.
I like that you did this follow up video because it explained more of where you are at with Piper. Having read almost all of Piper's books, I never got the impression that I should have more of a joyful feeling. I saw it as a settled knowledge of trust in God rather than an emotion. Emotions are fleeting and hard to sustain, and while we are occasionally blessed with an emotional high in our Christian walk, those highs don't last. Being satisfied in Christ for me is being in the Word, being obedient to the Lord, and being studious of doctrine and theology, and being faith-full. John Piper's article about Trump being unqualified as our president about 4 years ago did give me pause and cause me to understand that we may have some different views. I pray for Piper, and I hope that he will take a stand against CRT. You're right in saying that his influence would be powerful in that fight. Dever's clips are absolutely sickening, and I appreciate that you continually point out the error in soothing consciences to vote for such an unbiblical party. I'm glad that John Macarthur is taking a stand; he's someone to imitate.
I also had really loved John Piper's teaching in the past and can relate to a lot of what you said about Christian Hedonism. But his view on "Final Justification" is what made me much more cautious of Mr. Piper.
Mark Dever said, “I think, I think, I think”. What we have to say is, “Scripture says, scripture says, scripture says”. If Christians think they are supposed to be comfortable in society, they are mistaken. According to scripture we are aliens who are in the world, but not of the world. On a side note - According to David Barton, the settlers in Jamestown did indeed have slaves. BUT, when a slave ship came to Plymouth, the settlers there, who were knowledgeable in the scriptures, said that slavery was “man stealing”. Exodus 21:16. He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death. Living by the word of God matters, no matter what society determines is acceptable and even if we don’t fully understand God’s purposes in His decrees. Preaching the whole Word of God, without apology, without deviation, and without adding to it or, subtracting from it, is the only way to be sure that the true truth of God is presented to humanity. Our great cry to the world must be, God is sovereign over everything and He loves you! and the Holy Bible tells you how you can be right with Him. John 3:16.
I crack up when you mention your wife’s laundry room - I am sure it would trigger the Left if they listened to you. I am listening to you while I start the first load of laundry today for my husband and family :)
I don't recall the first time I heard about John Piper using the description Christian hedonism, but it was probably at least 15 years ago. I'm not even sure when he first started using it. But when I first heard it I found it to be totally abhorrent. As a Christian, the last thing I want, is to indulge in hedonism, and I find it abhorrent to call someone, or to think of another Christian as a Christian hedonist. The two words don't go together. I'll be honest with you, the term is so abhorrent to me that I've literally avoided Piper's website and materials because I don't even want to see those two words together, they just don't go together. I think of a hedonist as being the opposite of a Christian. The word hedonism conjures up ideas in my head that I don't want in my head. That's how strongly I feel about it.
"Celebriry Christians". When the back of a book talks about the writer being pastor of a 100,000,0000 member church, I have found that is often a red flag for me to walk away. Especially when you remember how many people like their "ears tickled" and how few want to really hear the word of God.
Appreciate your saying to check out the celebrity’s words against the Word Itself. Sooo important in these days! And I really appreciate your desire to “discuss “ your viewpoint in humility with opposing views. God bless!
The term "Christian Hedonism has never sat right with me yet I have never been able to put my finger on the exact problem with it. Thank you for clearing it up. Regardless of this issue , I still apprececiate John Pipers ministry.
Amen Jon. I liked your musings and study about Christian Stoicism. One of the main things in 1 John is that we show love to God most when obeying His commandments. I’m on your side with that.
42:30 I just purchased your book titled "Social Justice goes to church" I love it and we are blessed to have you take a stand on social Issues and the modern day church. Thank you Jon for exposing those who have bought into the social justice band wagon!!
Thank you for your spot on analysis! Our Magnificent GOD has really been using you to help navigate us through very troubled waters! May Our LORD continue to bless and use your wonderful exposition of The Word!
We were lead into Emergent Church in the early 2000s. I was so grateful to come out of it. We belonged to a church near CHBC that was revitalized out of that. They were doing some funky stuff with Allbery and racial babble but, imagine my shock when Mark Dever started sounding like the Emergent pastor we had. I am glad we are not near it anymore. This is Emergent with a different face. By the grace of God, the Lord took this sheep to different pastures.
More than a defense of John Piper, I would say there is just a bad understanding of John piper, the scriptures, and the personal experience of christianity. The difference that it has with the christian stoicism that you explained is the plain fact that the issue of obidience goes deeper in the heart, from the beggining of the bible and very clear in Romans 1-3, specially 1:23, that sin comes from giving glory to something other than god. Glory being an external expression of the perfect perfection, value and separation of God. And giving glory as a response that goes according and in tune with that. Now this glory can only be given when the crearure is new and the mind is rearrenged (Romas 12:1-2), a denied self and a living sacrifice. That is why the end of Romans 12:2 means getting in the same line with the will of God, approving as excelent the will of God. That which God in the beggining saw as good, so he got joy out of it, and which comes from him, namely every god gift (James 1:17). And seeing this, Adam and Eve, prefered their definition of will as the one to be chosen. They desobeied because of the value they gave to themselves, hints Romans 1:23 and the fact that stoicism as a definition is not ultimate as it is the desire to give glory to something that doesnt deserves it because of seeing it more valuable, comparing Eve's sight with God's in Genesis 1. So, yes, that expands a lot the idea of what is to sin and what is to give glory to God, which should not be offesive to say it can be happening while buying a car, if it can while eating fruit. And should make us see that the heart of man is deeply, so deeply sinful that it cannot always see where it sins, but actually denies it. The thing then is that desire in itself is not evil but can only be satisfied by God, when the hearts wants to satisfy it in sin (James 1:13-15). So, yes, when we are more satisfied in God that in anything else we glorify him and not anything created (as in Romans 1:23). That is why we need to be made new and repent when we value other stuff more, and look to God, as he was raised, the son of man, to be the one to make the change (John 3:1-21). Obsessed AND hopeful. Suffering YET always rejoycing.
Thank you for explaining the John Piper issue more. I was disagreeing with you a bit yesterday, but I do see where your coming from and I agree on most of what you said. I think I must be a person than can read Piper and not obsess over how much joy I’m displaying (though I also have struggled with joy in the Christian life as well). You made your points very clear, great video!
It is God's responsibility to make us happy/joyful.....it is OUR responsibility to trust and obey Him, (without FAITH it's IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD ...............! ) Faith is not a word we can just give whatever meaning we want it to mean! People of "faith" are NOT religious people.....they are people who take seriously their relationship with God and those things that please Him! Faith is an action word that combines grace to good works,(our obedience to God's commands!)....we are saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH UNTO GOOD WORKS!....It takes all three or else IT'S DEAD FAITH and dead faith cannot save anyone! Anything less than what is required by God is FAKE and no one can fake-it until you make-it! God sees ALL!If John Piper is Not calling young people especially and all people in general to REPENTENCE then he is a hireling and a false teacher!
I Holiness is a huge part of this conversation. John 14:21-23 to paraphrase we are to obey BECAUSE we love him. I think the enemy would love for us to error on either side of this. Obeying so that we'll be loved or thinking we're loved so we don't need to obey. Personally I don't ever want to go back under the law and likewise I don't kid myself that because I've been freed that it is fine to sin ( I admit I still sin much more than I like but I don't lie to myself that it's okay)
I am older than you Jon and I see the same thing. I was saved in 1981, I have seen a lot of changes in what use to be sound words, but not now. We have too many celebrities ❣❣
Jon, I think you're right to claim that Piper can't be easily categorized. When a teaching is false because of its undue emphasis on one doctrine over others it becomes too elusive to neatly put into a category. You did a very good job explaining Piper's hard to define error.
Piper teaches both hedonism and stoicism at the same time: being joyful in stoic obedience. It's the worst of both worlds. We are saved for freedom and should be joyful in our freedom. We are sons, not slaves.
John Piper is a very godly man. He knows his God, he loves Jesus with all his being, and there is no way you could listen to Piper for any length of time, and take any thing he says and feel he is teaching a false gospel. I dont agree with EVERYTHING he says, but I dont know my Bible like he knows his. He is an incredible preacher. I am not sure what you are saying about Piper. You have to know his preaching style and what he means by christian hedonism. I do not know one thing he preaches in error.
The five points of Calvinism that Piper teaches is a false gospel that slanders the very nature of God. I have compared TULIP to the Bible and each point is quite literally the OPPOSITE of what scripture actually says the Gospel is.
I was wrong; you are right. I do now believe that John P. was over-emphasizing one tiny facet just to seem to have an original idea. I'm glad you were not afraid to take on any of the sacred cows. And now that I think of it, even in the Piper/MacArthur conversation, MacArthur said that there "are many points where I disagree with (John Piper)." hed•on•ism n. Pursuit of or devotion to pleasure, especially to the pleasures of the senses. n. The ethical doctrine holding that only what is pleasant or has pleasant consequences is intrinsically good. n. The doctrine holding that behavior is motivated by the desire for pleasure and the avoidance of pain. Synonyms carnality, debauchery, sensuality, sybaritism, voluptuousness Antonyms abstinence, asceticism, sobriety, temperance
I appreciate this analysis, Jon. I never got on the Piper bandwagon for the reason you cite, i.e. evangelicalism's tendency to be celebrity-driven (from the days of Billy Sunday to Billy Graham to Rick Warren to today). I align most, though, with Sproul and MacArthur. It was my experience in fundamentalism that primed me to appreciate Reformed theology's steadfast insistence on the Five Solas. Yet the most helpful book on spirituality that I've read in my life so far has been Phillip Cary's Good News for Anxious Christians: 10 Practical Things You Don't Have to Do. I wonder, do you have any familiarity with Cary or this book? As a pastor, I recommend it to Christians who struggle with eternal security because they've been taught by evangelicalism to look within, to their experience, for their security rather than to Christ as He's found in God's Word. Cary is essentially promoting Luther's spirituality of looking outside oneself to Christ by faith in His objective Word rather than to one's subjective experience. Anyway, I believe Cary's point is even more relevant now than when he published it in 2010. www.amazon.com/Good-News-Anxious-Christians-Practical/dp/1587432854/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&hvadid=78340261202825&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&keywords=good+news+for+anxious+christians&qid=1601390127&sr=8-1&tag=mh0b-20
I had been questioning much whether I am wrong to question Piper, aside from the company he keeps and partaking in Lectio Divina at the Passion conferences alongside Beth Moore, Louie Giglio and others. With the evidence of bad company corrupting, as seen with the teaching of Francis Chan. So in Piper's partaking and endorsing false teachers like Rick Warren, I do have great concern for him and pray for him, but have stopped listening to his teachings as well as recommending him, at least not without caution. Thank you so much for this segment. Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus our Lord and may the love of the Father and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you.
Your definition of Christian Stoicism is where I was stuck before I understood grace. John Piper’s discussion of the parable of the treasure in a field being a picture of salvation helped me see that God’s love for us causes us to love Him, which causes us to obey Him. It really balances the love and obedience aspects for me. Maybe that’s why I’ve never seen Piper’s teachings in this understanding. I do appreciate this video as it helps me see why some people don’t listen to him. I am prayerfully researching his teachings at the encouragement of a friend of mine.
I read Pipers Hedonism book the day it was released. Had issues with it then and still do. Words matter and IMO it was a bad choice of a word and the concept was, though with good intentions missed the mark. Interesting you mentioned Colossians 3. I preached on it last weekend. Vs. 11 is pivotal for understanding Biblical justice.
36:30 It is my conception that other theologians also is weary of exactly this. That Piper seems to be promoting some sort of "justification by works (or other things)" deal rather than affirm the fact that we are saved from eternal damnation and have Jesus' holiness imputed onto us. I think it was RC Sproul (Sr) who said that salvation is by faith and entails immediate the imputation of Jesus' holiness upon the Christian's unbelief to belief. Sanctification is the Christian's life journey to be purified, battling the flesh, the world, and the devil. Good works is not what brings about justification or sanctification, but is a resultant "fruit" of a newly reborn Christian. In other words, good works comes as a result of the mere belief of Christ (as the God,, and the dead and resurrected saviour) and repents of his sins. It is not solely this individual, who does the good work. But the Holy Spirit in the individual that enables him to do the good work. (Note that this person is not possessed or mysteriously influenced to do this good work, but it is the resultant transformation of having the Holy Spirit within him, and the continual renewing of the mind with God's word (with the Holy Spirit being the revealing agent) that results in the person's change.
I appreciate everything you do. You have a way of making people think and rethink. I had read several of John Pipers books. Can't remember all but I do remember feeling a bit lost in some of them. But I had a good experience with Think It Not Strange. And I recommended that book to friends. I also have been un comfortable with Tim Kellers thoughts. But again I could not put it into words.
I bought Piper's popular book many many years ago and admit I stopped reading because the more I read the less I liked. I had spent my first couple of years as a new believer in my early 20's going to charismatic churches. Fortunately for me I loved reading my Bible and eventually I left charismatic churches. They felt too emotion driven and it seemed self was on the throne. A few years later reading Piper's book began giving me a similar feeling. I clicked on this video out of curiosity because I've seen several other of your videos and you are always pretty rock solid so I was curious if my guess about where you'd stand would be correct and it was. 😁 John Macarthur is a true hero of the faith to me. I disagree with him on the Day of the Lord and rapture but that's it.
At the end of "When I don't Desire God", he talks about William Cowper. JP has a hard time with him because of his major depression. He even gave a talk about him that you can find on Utube. Because we should all have joy, he has a hard time accepting that some Christians struggle with depression.
RE: Piper. He was very helpful to me 15 years ago when God was showing me election and particular redemption. Piper's work on that was essential to me. However, his work in the area of sanctification is troublesome, at best. Christian Hedonism/Stoicism are both wrong when taken in isolation. I agree. But I think what's missing in this conversation is the Holy Spirit. The fruit is the fruit of the Spirit, not me. It is produced by the Spirit, not me. Sanctification is yielding to the Spirit. The Spirit is the power we need to obey and when we obey, we are joyful. Joy is not something to be pursued of itself. As soon as we say that we are trying to be loving, joyful, etc., we've missed it. The Christian life is one of resting in what God has done and is doing. Christ is our life. The Spirit is the power of that life. We are to rest in Him. Do not try, but yield.
@@blanktrigger8863 yes, I agree. We "work out" what He has "worked in" (Philippians 2:13). We do that by yielding to the Spirit; that's a matter of the will, of course.
@@carolberubee It's more than that, though. For example, Yeshua credited the Apostles with the miracles they performed. They had the ability to say "we cast out spirits" or "we healed". This wasn't simple yielding.
@@blanktrigger8863 Well, let me ask you this. What part of our works do we contribute and what part is the Spirit? Can the old man who was crucified add anything good to what the Spirit does?
@@carolberubee Yeshua and the Apostles didn't specify that. Notice, for example, that Yeshua didn't bother to correct the Apostles in the way that you're trying to correct me. You have an understanding that they didn't have. As far as the old man being crucified, I don't know what you mean. If you mean "the thief on the cross", his obedience was complete on the cross, so that doesn't disprove anything. It's the same reason why using him to argue against the necessity of baptism doesn't work. An older example is in the temple system: the spilling of blood was necessary but those who couldn't afford an animal were permitted to use vegetation - but for those who could afford an animal, using vegetation would have been a sin.
I gave up on Piper when he recounted a story where he told a woman that she would go to hell if she did not stop her sin. The context was that of faith plus works equals salvation. Since then he has made the statement that we are not saved by faith alone but are justified by faith alone. Justification makes God 100% for us (whatever that means) but our works will bring us final salvation. It sounds like heresy to me. By the way, do you think Piper has a new car?
Yikes! Hillsong! (Passing reference in the Piper segment.) I hope you know now to steer clear of Hillsong and other pseudo-Christian groups of its ilk (e.g., Bethel, Elevation). Thanks for this presentation, Jon. The Lord keep you, and John MacArthur, strong.
Men have made a living off of telling people what the Bible means... so that by the time we read it for ourselves, we see the disconnect between what the man has taught and what the scriptures clearly say. The man has said he is the Mouthpiece of God. The man has said that you need him in order to understand “this book”. The man has said he needs to “unpack” this text. The only “unpacking” we need is to unpack the doctrine he has stuffed inside it. Sure, we may not want to be too hard on some beloved men who have taught us for so many years, but at the end of the day, a thief is a thief, no matter how nice he is, no matter how sincere. I pray that the Lord will open the eyes of His people and they will cast out the Goatherd.
Just to add a needed counter to this sentiment, two gifts of the Spirit are the gift of teaching and the gift of administration. There are people gifted to teach and govern over the Church.
The best way to interpret the Bible is to read it literally. The biggest hindrance to understanding the Bible is reading it while subscribed to a specific sets of beliefs. Once you do that, confirmation bias will set in.
The video of Dever and Leeman was infuriating. It was so full of weasel words, but clearly provided permission to vote for people that are diametrically opposed to God. What happened? There was a time when 9Marks materials were laser-focused on Biblical principles for pastoral care and church organization. How do men immersed in God's word fall do far from it? It is a warning to all of us to be on the alert for compromise and falling away in our own lives. God bless you, John. Please keep these educational videos coming. They have helped me greatly.
Hey Jon, I graduated from Pipers seminary and am currently a pastor in Southern Ca. I’ve been listening to you with thankfulness for your SJW stuff. I was wondering if we could have a conversation about Piper and his theology. I feel I might be able to shed some light on a few things you mentioned in this video. I’m happy to chat via email or even over the phone if there is a desire. No critique intended. Just want to give a few thoughts if they are desired.
Overall, John sounds like he is reflecting what’s known as progressive sanctification. Westminster Confession Chapter 13 - Of Sanctification. Section 1.) They, who are once effectually called and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified really and personally, through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection,(1) by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them;(2) the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed,(3) and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified,(4) and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces,(5) to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.(6) (1) 1Co 6:11; Ac 20:32; Php 3:10; Ro 6:5,6. (2) Jn 17:17; Eph 5:26; 1Th 2:13. (3) Ro 6:6,14. (4) Gal 5:24; Ro 8:13. (5) Col 1:11; Eph 3:16-19. (6) 2Co 7:1; Heb 12:14. ------------------------------------ Section 2.) This sanctification is throughout in the whole man,(1) yet imperfect in this life; there abideth still some remnants of corruption in every part:(2) whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.(3) (1) 1Th 5:23. (2) 1Jn 1:10; Ro 7:18,23; Php 3:12. (3) Gal 5:17; 1Pe 2:11. ------------------------------------ Section 3.) In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail,(1) yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome;(2) and so, the saints grow in grace,(3) perfecting holiness in the fear of God.(4)
1. It’s why I read AW Tozer regularly & not Piper. 2. I cannot stand these Christian leaders twisting truth. 3. Not one of these leaders have volunteered 1 day in a crisis pregnancy clinic. Where I served people of all colors to help them choose life for their baby & a better life for themselves.
So here is a problem, you read aw tozer and then you say Christian leaders twist truth. To what standard? Aw tozers? So if they would have volunteered in a crisis pregnancy center, that would have made a difference? So number 1,2 and 3 are thrown out.
This is when GOD is most glorified. When HE saves Wretched, rebellious, helpless sinners that are in needing of a savior. “Some wandered in the wilderness, lost and homeless. Hungry and thirsty, they nearly died. “Lord, help!” they cried in their trouble, and he rescued them from their distress. He led them straight to safety, to a city where they could live. Let them praise the Lord for his great love and for the wonderful things he has done for them. For he satisfies the thirsty and fills the hungry with good things. Some sat in darkness and deepest gloom, imprisoned in iron chains of misery. They rebelled against the words of God, scorning the counsel of the Most High. That is why he broke them with hard labor; they fell, and no one was there to help them. “Lord, help!” they cried in their trouble, and he saved them from their distress. He led them from the darkness and deepest gloom; he snapped their chains. Let them praise the Lord for his great love and for the wonderful things he has done for them. For he broke down their prison gates of bronze; he cut apart their bars of iron. Some were fools; they rebelled and suffered for their sins. They couldn’t stand the thought of food, and they were knocking on death’s door. “Lord, help!” they cried in their trouble, and he saved them from their distress. He sent out his word and healed them, snatching them from the door of death. Let them praise the Lord for his great love and for the wonderful things he has done for them. Let them offer sacrifices of thanksgiving and sing joyfully about his glorious acts.” Psalms 107:4-22
God always has people who haven't 'bowed the knee to Baal' or for that matter to a social gospel. But why do any of these brothers and sisters have to be known as leaders of the church or best-selling authors or conference attendees, etc.? Our Lord has a history of spreading the work around and time is never an issue for him. So let us all each use our own gifts as best we can and leave the judging to 'He who holds judgement'; 'he who judges the earth.
@@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast Church discipline is within the church. And following that if you don't 'win your brother' then what? Endless internet/social media squabbling? Presenting Christianity as just another one of many religions? Who's right; who's wrong? Who is my brother? The accusations flow back-and-forth and never end; one can hardly keep up. And casting a critical eye on Christianity reveals a corporate entity that is little more than a wasteland of shifting doctrines. So is there any near future hope for anything more than a local family/house church?
I don’t think many vote based only on the abortion issue, but if that were the only issue that separated the candidates I would vote pro-life. I think The two men in the clip are assuming a lot and their hypothetical cases are not helpful. I think one problem is many who vote with no thought of issues at all. We should develop our Christian worldview to help us vote based on moral truth as it applies to financial and social issues. I don’t idolize our current president at all but many of the policies implemented since his inauguration have been more pro- life, more protective of the constitutional rights of all people and have, in many cases increased the outward estate of many. I don’t agree with everything he has done or said, but will vote for him instead of the other candidate.
But there's no logical way for a Christian to justify voting for a pro-abortion candidate. Only God has the power to take away life. Saying that's a one-issue thing is pigeonholing. Democrats have draw line and said that a woman, for 9 or 10 months, can end a life. That is as wicked as wicked gets.
Don't you think in Piper's quote he is getting at the same idea that Martin Luther says, "We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone." Also, James 2:14 "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?" I think it is the idea that you are saved by faith alone but out of that works follow not so that you will be made right with God, but flows out of what God has already done for you and in response to it. I do get what you mean by Piper's stuff though. I have read tons of Piper's stuff and also no longer recommend him all that often even though I benefitted greatly from his ministry in the past.
@16:35 you take issue with Piper using joy and happiness interchangeably. Respectfully, that's how everyone treated the terms up until very recently. The earliest Christian writer I think you can trace making a distinction is Oswald Chambers in My Utmost for His Highest. Before that the terms were used interchangeably (as they often are in the Old Testament). The Puritans are a good example of this. Reading the prayer collection Valley of Vision you'll find many times where joy and happiness are treated as though interchangeable terms and Edwards often did this in his writings as well. I get the desire for the distinction which typically is joy=disposition resting in the eternal grace of God and happiness=an emotion resting on fleeting experiences. But the answer to that dilemma is not to redefine the words but to say the godliness of an affection is determined by its object which is Edwards' thesis in The Religious Affections.
Christian friends. Question- I am an Independant fundamental Baptist. The woke stuff seems to not have infected the IFB nearly as much as it has the evangelical churches. Does anyone else notice that, and if so, what do you think the reason is?
It borrows language that means something to Christians and distorts the biblical definition. It also plays on the natural empathy and love that we are called to have for each other.
I, too, am from a Fundamentalist background (raised in IFCA churches in NorCal, went to PCC for undergrad and graduate school before attending DTS, and my brothers went to PCC and BJU). I believe this issue, like so many, boils down to constituency. Broader evangelicalism was founded upon an appeal to common interests with the established culture (like the Herodians of Jesus' time, perhaps), whereas fundamentalism went the way of the Essenes of Jesus' time in withdrawing from society in order to preserve doctrinal and practical purity. Denouncing something so culturally momentous as Social Justice right now would be the third rail for big-time evangelical leaders because their constituency is so broad. Whereas a fundamentalist church or institution (like PCC, for instance, or BJU) may need to hew to different standards associated by their base with "keeping the faith," as in KJV-Onlyism in PCC's case or some other such issue (women not wearing pants, mixed bathing, etc.). As a pastor of a Conservative Baptist Church in Vermont now, I can see how any one of us as leaders runs up against what our own church deems to be standards of doctrinal or practical purity and, because our tenure depends upon popular support, is forced to reckon with what one of my Dallas Seminary professors called "institutional realities." I find that I often find myself considering how someone in my church might react and adjusting what I say. Of course, this is probably a question of balance or tone rather than compromise, at least in principle. I can say things that a member might disagree with but in a gracious way. But I do not think that there has ever been a pastor or Christian leader completely free of the fear of man except for Jesus Christ Himself. May He have mercy on us and keep us faithful to Him alone! God bless you, brother.
Jon, Keep seeking the truth, with God speed. On John Piper, Does he introduce Replacement Theology? What about his defense of Rick Warren? Finally has Piper promoted Roman Catholic inspired Contemplative Prayer ?
Has anyone heard about 2024 Separds conference. I saw Q&A with MacArthur and Piper. I think MacArthur seemed to agree with Pioer on hedonism. Did anyone else see that?
Jon, how hard would it be for you to put together a phone interview with any of these guys to press them on some of their ideas? It seems your mo is to read their stuff...read their stuff...read their stuff...watch their stuff...watch their stuff...and then attack it, usually in a critical manner. I'm sure at least SOME of these guys would welcome the opportunity from you to interview them and say, "I've read what you've said. Here's my problem with it," and then give them a chance to respond. Maybe you're not understanding it, OR maybe they could say it better and bring clarity, OR maybe they really are going nuts. All of them. At one time. Over a couple of issues. Men with hundreds of years of collective ministry and teaching between them, just suddenly going off the deep end. I would enjoy seeing you interview a Piper or any of these guys. I think they might actually be up for it, and I think it could be a really healthy, clarifying exercise. Just a suggestion.
Jon, what piper is saying is how do we apply James 2:24 and Roman’s 4:3-5. James says in James 2:24 what most Christian’s do not want to hear. But the fact is if you do not show a new creation or a changed life you are not reborn. You your self believe that. James 2:24 only makes sense in that understanding. We have to see the vertical eph 2:8 Roman’s 5:1 and the horizontal Ephesians 2:10 James 2:24. Are you saved by faith? Yes immediately, but if you do not show a new creation you were not saved. Why? Because God puts the heart of flesh in you and when this happens you walk this way. We believe that if we are not trapped by easy believisim or antinomianisim. That’s all piper is saying. He just is using James language. We cannot pull a Martin Luther and say let’s remove James. We have to incorporate it/rightly divide. You said exactly the opposite of what James says “we are justified by faith not by works”. Go back and listen. Piper puts it into perspective. If you have been vertically saved Ephesians 2:8 then you will be finally justified horizontally because you shown you were justified vertically.
Why is Leeman an "authority" on these issues of politics for evangelicals? Why is he even speaking about the issues? I watched a podcast on Cross Politic, where they drill him with questions that he has no answer, has never thought about, issues. that if he is an expert in "the field" or in this arena, that he should have thought about. I don't understand why he gets the stage on these issues? What's his background?
The victim can't blame the oppressor bc the oppressor became an oppressor bc he was a victim of an oppressor at one time. See how ridiculous this whole thing is?
Voddie Baucham is also speaking out against all this!
voddie is the man!
At 51, I now value the wisdom of older Godly men of humility more than ever. I used to pursue "hipness", "being relevant" and other cultural trends - but it was all based in my own immaturity. I'm still not where I need to be- but I've learned that Christian gurus usually disappoint. And it's my fault for looking to them and being let down. The most recent for me is our last church in Indianapolis, the TFG pastor went woke- which ironically is when I woke up and left. Now that church is back peddling like crazy as people leave. I really appreciate this channel which is putting an eloquent voice to my thoughts over the past 3 years. Keep it up John- you are doing a great job!
@Mark Perrine AMEN to that!
God is truly humbling us. . .and giving us more time. Alot of us 50 + who have been walking with Christ for decades, are seriously seeing the light! Thank you for your transparency.✝️💕
I'm an oldster who is SOOOO HAPPY to read about your evolution. Yes, Virginia, there is a God in Heaven and reasonable, intelligent people on earth!!
I like the English reformers like Thomas Cranmer.
Jon, I'm were you were with Piper. He had previously influenced me, but this nuanced stance on race and CRT, and then the 2016 election - opened my eyes. I avoid him. Big red flags.
I can't stand JP but it for a completely different reason. When he wrote that blog condemning Trump back on January 20, 2017 I completely disowned him. He was actively stabbing "our side" in the back (ie helping Hillary) on his self-righteous pedestal. The pattern that's been developed over my lifetime is that the more popular a Christian "leader" becomes - the more I doubt their veracity. Such as Josh Harris (I Kissed My Marriage Goodbye). Rob Bell, Rick Warren (signatory to global warming pact), Falwell for obvious reasons and many more. We should take our eyes off "gurus" and put them on solely on Jesus.
I hadn’t seen that.
Praise the Lord for this conversation! You nailed it ! So many leaders have put yokes on the sheep that are unbearable! I have been fighting this for 20 years in my walk with the Lord!
How is pastor JP even backstabbing "our side"? I don't support Trump because I am a republican, but for policies that are more attuned with the scripture and constitution, and mostly because Democratic Party has completely lost their minds and their visceral hatred of God is so apparent. However, a pastor who will not speak out against government leaders for their immorality is no pastor at all. Prophet Nathan spoke against David for his sexual immorality. Will you condemn Nathan for his excoriating words against David? As Christians, we need to remember that Jesus is our king, not Trump or Biden. As much as, Trump has done good by exposing hypocrisy of the media and democratic party, we shouldn't be imitating his behaviors like I have seen here.
Its funny that you dumped John Piper because he dumped on the sins of your favorite politician.
Then you encourage others not to get caught up in “gurus” or personalities. Haha.
You dont see the problem there?
I mean Id much rather have John Piper praying for me than Donald Trump.
But Trump is without question the only possible answer in this election.
Thomas Cho Sir God has used flawed people throughout history. You can look at the Bible for proof of that! You may not approve of President Trump but without a doubt God placed him in office the first time and we need to be praying that God places him in office for a second term. Yes the Democratic Party has lost its mind to the point that it is totally evil. Its agenda is power and corruption at the highest level and if they attain the highest office in America this country will be done! America as we have known it will be over forever. Donald Trump is here “for such a time as this” and I pray God will give us four more years of His grace. We are definitely in the last days. The labor pains are quickening and time is short. Be thankful for out President and pray for him. Pray for his re-election. No man is perfect, especially not myself....how about you?
Jon. This maybe your best work. Your analysis on Piper is spot on!!! I couldn't quite put my finger on it. It's his imbalance on these topics!!!! Jon you really have a gift. Keep up the good work.
Greg
The only safe place is, surprise surprise, the pure Word of God! Run there, Church!!
You are being clear Jon, The more you talk, the more I want to read my Bible and the dead Theologians 👍🏿👍🏿💯🙌🏾😊 keep up your good work Jon
God bless you, sister.
I love John MacArthur!! Thank you for this video Jon!! It was very helpful!!!
I like JM too, but even JM is not infallible. Only the Holy Spirit and His teaching of God's Word is Infallible. JM says stuff that is charitably foolish , just like any man, including you and me. When Jesus died on The Cross and the veil of the tent was rent from top to bottom, He cleared the way we could interact with Him without anyone in the way.
I like that you did this follow up video because it explained more of where you are at with Piper. Having read almost all of Piper's books, I never got the impression that I should have more of a joyful feeling. I saw it as a settled knowledge of trust in God rather than an emotion. Emotions are fleeting and hard to sustain, and while we are occasionally blessed with an emotional high in our Christian walk, those highs don't last. Being satisfied in Christ for me is being in the Word, being obedient to the Lord, and being studious of doctrine and theology, and being faith-full. John Piper's article about Trump being unqualified as our president about 4 years ago did give me pause and cause me to understand that we may have some different views. I pray for Piper, and I hope that he will take a stand against CRT. You're right in saying that his influence would be powerful in that fight. Dever's clips are absolutely sickening, and I appreciate that you continually point out the error in soothing consciences to vote for such an unbiblical party. I'm glad that John Macarthur is taking a stand; he's someone to imitate.
I also had really loved John Piper's teaching in the past and can relate to a lot of what you said about Christian Hedonism. But his view on "Final Justification" is what made me much more cautious of Mr. Piper.
RE: Dever and Leeman. So disgusting, made me want to vomit. Leeman begins by re-framing the narrative. Typical snake.
Mark Dever said, “I think, I think, I think”. What we have to say is, “Scripture says, scripture says, scripture says”. If Christians think they are supposed to be comfortable in society, they are mistaken. According to scripture we are aliens who are in the world, but not of the world.
On a side note - According to David Barton, the settlers in Jamestown did indeed have slaves. BUT, when a slave ship came to Plymouth, the settlers there, who were knowledgeable in the scriptures, said that slavery was “man stealing”. Exodus 21:16. He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death.
Living by the word of God matters, no matter what society determines is acceptable and even if we don’t fully understand God’s purposes in His decrees. Preaching the whole Word of God, without apology, without deviation, and without adding to it or, subtracting from it, is the only way to be sure that the true truth of God is presented to humanity.
Our great cry to the world must be, God is sovereign over everything and He loves you! and the Holy Bible tells you how you can be right with Him. John 3:16.
Well said!
I crack up when you mention your wife’s laundry room - I am sure it would trigger the Left if they listened to you. I am listening to you while I start the first load of laundry today for my husband and family :)
It's a clean laundry room too
Still,m I thought he should have said (and the reality should be) simply, "the laundry room"
@@jjroseknows777 if his wife gladly owns the job of laundry as a way to be her husband's helper, call it hers and make it beautiful!
I don't recall the first time I heard about John Piper using the description Christian hedonism, but it was probably at least 15 years ago. I'm not even sure when he first started using it. But when I first heard it I found it to be totally abhorrent. As a Christian, the last thing I want, is to indulge in hedonism, and I find it abhorrent to call someone, or to think of another Christian as a Christian hedonist. The two words don't go together. I'll be honest with you, the term is so abhorrent to me that I've literally avoided Piper's website and materials because I don't even want to see those two words together, they just don't go together. I think of a hedonist as being the opposite of a Christian. The word hedonism conjures up ideas in my head that I don't want in my head. That's how strongly I feel about it.
"Celebriry Christians". When the back of a book talks about the writer being pastor of a 100,000,0000 member church, I have found that is often a red flag for me to walk away. Especially when you remember how many people like their "ears tickled" and how few want to really hear the word of God.
Listening to that interchange with Mark Dever and Leeman makes me think of the blind leading the blind. Self deception gone awry.
Appreciate your saying to check out the celebrity’s words against the Word Itself. Sooo important in these days! And I really appreciate your desire to “discuss “ your viewpoint in humility with opposing views. God bless!
The term "Christian Hedonism has never sat right with me yet I have never been able to put my finger on the exact problem with it. Thank you for clearing it up. Regardless of this issue , I still apprececiate John Pipers ministry.
We have two divisions in the church - the one that says, "It's my experience..." vs. the one that says, "Thus says the Lord..."
Amen Jon. I liked your musings and study about Christian Stoicism. One of the main things in 1 John is that we show love to God most when obeying His commandments. I’m on your side with that.
Very much appreciate your work on these podcasts, Jon. Well-researched, bold truths delivered in the right tone and manner. Thank you.
Thank you, Jon, it is a blessing to have a resource like this for those of us who have been skeptical for a while. Appreciate your insight!
42:30 I just purchased your book titled "Social Justice goes to church" I love it and we are blessed to have you take a stand on social Issues and the modern day church. Thank you Jon for exposing those who have bought into the social justice band wagon!!
Excellent and much needed clarification. Your tone is respectful as always. Very helpful. Thanks, Jon!
To me Pastor Piper got off about speaking in tongues, and Rick Warren, and now, he is on stage with false teachers ???? Keep up the good work Jon❣❣
Thank you for your spot on analysis! Our Magnificent GOD has really been using you to help navigate us through very troubled waters! May Our LORD continue to bless and use your wonderful exposition of The Word!
A conservative who is pro-choice? What exactly is he conserving then?
We were lead into Emergent Church in the early 2000s. I was so grateful to come out of it. We belonged to a church near CHBC that was revitalized out of that. They were doing some funky stuff with Allbery and racial babble but, imagine my shock when Mark Dever started sounding like the Emergent pastor we had. I am glad we are not near it anymore. This is Emergent with a different face. By the grace of God, the Lord took this sheep to different pastures.
More than a defense of John Piper, I would say there is just a bad understanding of John piper, the scriptures, and the personal experience of christianity.
The difference that it has with the christian stoicism that you explained is the plain fact that the issue of obidience goes deeper in the heart, from the beggining of the bible and very clear in Romans 1-3, specially 1:23, that sin comes from giving glory to something other than god. Glory being an external expression of the perfect perfection, value and separation of God. And giving glory as a response that goes according and in tune with that. Now this glory can only be given when the crearure is new and the mind is rearrenged (Romas 12:1-2), a denied self and a living sacrifice. That is why the end of Romans 12:2 means getting in the same line with the will of God, approving as excelent the will of God. That which God in the beggining saw as good, so he got joy out of it, and which comes from him, namely every god gift (James 1:17). And seeing this, Adam and Eve, prefered their definition of will as the one to be chosen. They desobeied because of the value they gave to themselves, hints Romans 1:23 and the fact that stoicism as a definition is not ultimate as it is the desire to give glory to something that doesnt deserves it because of seeing it more valuable, comparing Eve's sight with God's in Genesis 1.
So, yes, that expands a lot the idea of what is to sin and what is to give glory to God, which should not be offesive to say it can be happening while buying a car, if it can while eating fruit. And should make us see that the heart of man is deeply, so deeply sinful that it cannot always see where it sins, but actually denies it.
The thing then is that desire in itself is not evil but can only be satisfied by God, when the hearts wants to satisfy it in sin (James 1:13-15). So, yes, when we are more satisfied in God that in anything else we glorify him and not anything created (as in Romans 1:23). That is why we need to be made new and repent when we value other stuff more, and look to God, as he was raised, the son of man, to be the one to make the change (John 3:1-21). Obsessed AND hopeful. Suffering YET always rejoycing.
Dever and Leeman have NO IDEA what they are talking about. I find this disgusting.
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent" John 17:3 (NASB).
To obey is better than sacrifice 💖
Thank you for explaining the John Piper issue more. I was disagreeing with you a bit yesterday, but I do see where your coming from and I agree on most of what you said. I think I must be a person than can read Piper and not obsess over how much joy I’m displaying (though I also have struggled with joy in the Christian life as well). You made your points very clear, great video!
Another great message. Keep on bearing the truth, Brother.
It is God's responsibility to make us happy/joyful.....it is OUR responsibility to trust and obey Him, (without FAITH it's IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD ...............! )
Faith is not a word we can just give whatever meaning we want it to mean! People of "faith" are NOT religious people.....they are people who take seriously their relationship with God and those things that please Him! Faith is an action word that combines grace to good works,(our obedience to God's commands!)....we are saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH UNTO GOOD WORKS!....It takes all three or else IT'S DEAD FAITH and dead faith cannot save anyone! Anything less than what is required by God is FAKE and no one can fake-it until you make-it! God sees ALL!If John Piper is Not calling young people especially and all people in general to REPENTENCE then he is a hireling and a false teacher!
One correction: people of faith are definitely religious if they follow the bible.
I appreciate your work and interviews. They are helpful and carefully done.
Thank you as well...this was so very good to hear and pass on.
I Holiness is a huge part of this conversation. John 14:21-23 to paraphrase we are to obey BECAUSE we love him. I think the enemy would love for us to error on either side of this. Obeying so that we'll be loved or thinking we're loved so we don't need to obey. Personally I don't ever want to go back under the law and likewise I don't kid myself that because I've been freed that it is fine to sin ( I admit I still sin much more than I like but I don't lie to myself that it's okay)
These church teachers/leaders like Dever are leaving too much “space” for Christians these days. Dangerous
I am older than you Jon and I see the same thing. I was saved in 1981, I have seen a lot of changes in what use to be sound words, but not now. We have too many celebrities ❣❣
Jon, I think you're right to claim that Piper can't be easily categorized. When a teaching is false because of its undue emphasis on one doctrine over others it becomes too elusive to neatly put into a category. You did a very good job explaining Piper's hard to define error.
Dever clip = make room for pragmatism for the sake of unity.😳
Piper teaches both hedonism and stoicism at the same time: being joyful in stoic obedience. It's the worst of both worlds. We are saved for freedom and should be joyful in our freedom. We are sons, not slaves.
John Piper is a very godly man. He knows his God, he loves Jesus with all his being, and there is no way you could listen to Piper for any length of time, and take any thing he says and feel he is teaching a false gospel. I dont agree with EVERYTHING he says, but I dont know my Bible like he knows his. He is an incredible preacher. I am not sure what you are saying about Piper. You have to know his preaching style and what he means by christian hedonism. I do not know one thing he preaches in error.
The five points of Calvinism that Piper teaches is a false gospel that slanders the very nature of God. I have compared TULIP to the Bible and each point is quite literally the OPPOSITE of what scripture actually says the Gospel is.
I was wrong; you are right. I do now believe that John P. was over-emphasizing one tiny facet just to seem to have an original idea. I'm glad you were not afraid to take on any of the sacred cows. And now that I think of it, even in the Piper/MacArthur conversation, MacArthur said that there "are many points where I disagree with (John Piper)."
hed•on•ism
n. Pursuit of or devotion to pleasure, especially to the pleasures of the senses.
n. The ethical doctrine holding that only what is pleasant or has pleasant consequences is intrinsically good.
n. The doctrine holding that behavior is motivated by the desire for pleasure and the avoidance of pain.
Synonyms carnality, debauchery, sensuality, sybaritism, voluptuousness
Antonyms abstinence, asceticism, sobriety, temperance
I appreciate this analysis, Jon. I never got on the Piper bandwagon for the reason you cite, i.e. evangelicalism's tendency to be celebrity-driven (from the days of Billy Sunday to Billy Graham to Rick Warren to today). I align most, though, with Sproul and MacArthur. It was my experience in fundamentalism that primed me to appreciate Reformed theology's steadfast insistence on the Five Solas. Yet the most helpful book on spirituality that I've read in my life so far has been Phillip Cary's Good News for Anxious Christians: 10 Practical Things You Don't Have to Do. I wonder, do you have any familiarity with Cary or this book? As a pastor, I recommend it to Christians who struggle with eternal security because they've been taught by evangelicalism to look within, to their experience, for their security rather than to Christ as He's found in God's Word. Cary is essentially promoting Luther's spirituality of looking outside oneself to Christ by faith in His objective Word rather than to one's subjective experience. Anyway, I believe Cary's point is even more relevant now than when he published it in 2010.
www.amazon.com/Good-News-Anxious-Christians-Practical/dp/1587432854/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&hvadid=78340261202825&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&keywords=good+news+for+anxious+christians&qid=1601390127&sr=8-1&tag=mh0b-20
I had been questioning much whether I am wrong to question Piper, aside from the company he keeps and partaking in Lectio Divina at the Passion conferences alongside Beth Moore, Louie Giglio and others. With the evidence of bad company corrupting, as seen with the teaching of Francis Chan. So in Piper's partaking and endorsing false teachers like Rick Warren, I do have great concern for him and pray for him, but have stopped listening to his teachings as well as recommending him, at least not without caution. Thank you so much for this segment. Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus our Lord and may the love of the Father and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you.
Your definition of Christian Stoicism is where I was stuck before I understood grace. John Piper’s discussion of the parable of the treasure in a field being a picture of salvation helped me see that God’s love for us causes us to love Him, which causes us to obey Him. It really balances the love and obedience aspects for me. Maybe that’s why I’ve never seen Piper’s teachings in this understanding. I do appreciate this video as it helps me see why some people don’t listen to him. I am prayerfully researching his teachings at the encouragement of a friend of mine.
So good! Made this whole
matter clear after MANY
years. Piper lays a weight
upon his hearers.
Chan lays a weight. Both
are hyper emotional.
Agreed.
I’m glad you followed up on Piper. I didn’t quite get it in the last video but follow your point better here.
I read Pipers Hedonism book the day it was released. Had issues with it then and still do. Words matter and IMO it was a bad choice of a word and the concept was, though with good intentions missed the mark. Interesting you mentioned Colossians 3. I preached on it last weekend. Vs. 11 is pivotal for understanding Biblical justice.
36:30 It is my conception that other theologians also is weary of exactly this. That Piper seems to be promoting some sort of "justification by works (or other things)" deal rather than affirm the fact that we are saved from eternal damnation and have Jesus' holiness imputed onto us.
I think it was RC Sproul (Sr) who said that salvation is by faith and entails immediate the imputation of Jesus' holiness upon the Christian's unbelief to belief. Sanctification is the Christian's life journey to be purified, battling the flesh, the world, and the devil. Good works is not what brings about justification or sanctification, but is a resultant "fruit" of a newly reborn Christian.
In other words, good works comes as a result of the mere belief of Christ (as the God,, and the dead and resurrected saviour) and repents of his sins. It is not solely this individual, who does the good work. But the Holy Spirit in the individual that enables him to do the good work. (Note that this person is not possessed or mysteriously influenced to do this good work, but it is the resultant transformation of having the Holy Spirit within him, and the continual renewing of the mind with God's word (with the Holy Spirit being the revealing agent) that results in the person's change.
I appreciate everything you do. You have a way of making people think and rethink. I had read several of John Pipers books. Can't remember all but I do remember feeling a bit lost in some of them. But I had a good experience with Think It Not Strange. And I recommended that book to friends. I also have been un comfortable with Tim Kellers thoughts. But again I could not put it into words.
I bought Piper's popular book many many years ago and admit I stopped reading because the more I read the less I liked. I had spent my first couple of years as a new believer in my early 20's going to charismatic churches. Fortunately for me I loved reading my Bible and eventually I left charismatic churches. They felt too emotion driven and it seemed self was on the throne. A few years later reading Piper's book began giving me a similar feeling.
I clicked on this video out of curiosity because I've seen several other of your videos and you are always pretty rock solid so I was curious if my guess about where you'd stand would be correct and it was. 😁
John Macarthur is a true hero of the faith to me. I disagree with him on the Day of the Lord and rapture but that's it.
At the end of "When I don't Desire God", he talks about William Cowper. JP has a hard time with him because of his major depression. He even gave a talk about him that you can find on Utube. Because we should all have joy, he has a hard time accepting that some Christians struggle with depression.
Well then he should have a problem with Spurgeon as well!
Excellent on moral and political!
Thanks, John!
RE: Piper. He was very helpful to me 15 years ago when God was showing me election and particular redemption. Piper's work on that was essential to me. However, his work in the area of sanctification is troublesome, at best.
Christian Hedonism/Stoicism are both wrong when taken in isolation. I agree. But I think what's missing in this conversation is the Holy Spirit. The fruit is the fruit of the Spirit, not me. It is produced by the Spirit, not me. Sanctification is yielding to the Spirit. The Spirit is the power we need to obey and when we obey, we are joyful. Joy is not something to be pursued of itself.
As soon as we say that we are trying to be loving, joyful, etc., we've missed it. The Christian life is one of resting in what God has done and is doing. Christ is our life. The Spirit is the power of that life. We are to rest in Him. Do not try, but yield.
There is an active component as well, but this is mostly good.
@@blanktrigger8863 yes, I agree. We "work out" what He has "worked in" (Philippians 2:13). We do that by yielding to the Spirit; that's a matter of the will, of course.
@@carolberubee It's more than that, though. For example, Yeshua credited the Apostles with the miracles they performed. They had the ability to say "we cast out spirits" or "we healed". This wasn't simple yielding.
@@blanktrigger8863 Well, let me ask you this. What part of our works do we contribute and what part is the Spirit? Can the old man who was crucified add anything good to what the Spirit does?
@@carolberubee Yeshua and the Apostles didn't specify that. Notice, for example, that Yeshua didn't bother to correct the Apostles in the way that you're trying to correct me. You have an understanding that they didn't have. As far as the old man being crucified, I don't know what you mean. If you mean "the thief on the cross", his obedience was complete on the cross, so that doesn't disprove anything. It's the same reason why using him to argue against the necessity of baptism doesn't work. An older example is in the temple system: the spilling of blood was necessary but those who couldn't afford an animal were permitted to use vegetation - but for those who could afford an animal, using vegetation would have been a sin.
You show A Lot of wisdom young man
Praise God for His blessings!!!
I gave up on Piper when he recounted a story where he told a woman that she would go to hell if she did not stop her sin. The context was that of faith plus works equals salvation. Since then he has made the statement that we are not saved by faith alone but are justified by faith alone. Justification makes God 100% for us (whatever that means) but our works will bring us final salvation. It sounds like heresy to me.
By the way, do you think Piper has a new car?
Yikes! Hillsong! (Passing reference in the Piper segment.) I hope you know now to steer clear of Hillsong and other pseudo-Christian groups of its ilk (e.g., Bethel, Elevation).
Thanks for this presentation, Jon. The Lord keep you, and John MacArthur, strong.
Our worship set this morning at church included all of the above 😖😫😣
Men have made a living off of telling people what the Bible means... so that by the time we read it for ourselves, we see the disconnect between what the man has taught and what the scriptures clearly say. The man has said he is the Mouthpiece of God. The man has said that you need him in order to understand “this book”. The man has said he needs to “unpack” this text. The only “unpacking” we need is to unpack the doctrine he has stuffed inside it. Sure, we may not want to be too hard on some beloved men who have taught us for so many years, but at the end of the day, a thief is a thief, no matter how nice he is, no matter how sincere.
I pray that the Lord will open the eyes of His people and they will cast out the Goatherd.
True. It is pretty amazing.
Just to add a needed counter to this sentiment, two gifts of the Spirit are the gift of teaching and the gift of administration. There are people gifted to teach and govern over the Church.
The best way to interpret the Bible is to read it literally. The biggest hindrance to understanding the Bible is reading it while subscribed to a specific sets of beliefs. Once you do that, confirmation bias will set in.
36:30 Can someone tell me what "Maintenance Language" means? Thanks
Wow 👏. I never thought about it this way. Great content my friend
The video of Dever and Leeman was infuriating. It was so full of weasel words, but clearly provided permission to vote for people that are diametrically opposed to God. What happened? There was a time when 9Marks materials were laser-focused on Biblical principles for pastoral care and church organization. How do men immersed in God's word fall do far from it? It is a warning to all of us to be on the alert for compromise and falling away in our own lives.
God bless you, John. Please keep these educational videos coming. They have helped me greatly.
Hey Jon, I graduated from Pipers seminary and am currently a pastor in Southern Ca. I’ve been listening to you with thankfulness for your SJW stuff. I was wondering if we could have a conversation about Piper and his theology. I feel I might be able to shed some light on a few things you mentioned in this video. I’m happy to chat via email or even over the phone if there is a desire. No critique intended. Just want to give a few thoughts if they are desired.
If they are edifying, would appreciate hearing them as well. Can message you my email if necessary.
Overall, John sounds like he is reflecting what’s known as progressive sanctification.
Westminster Confession
Chapter 13 - Of Sanctification.
Section 1.) They, who are once effectually called and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified really and personally, through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection,(1) by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them;(2) the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed,(3) and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified,(4) and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces,(5) to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.(6)
(1) 1Co 6:11; Ac 20:32; Php 3:10; Ro 6:5,6. (2) Jn 17:17; Eph 5:26; 1Th 2:13. (3) Ro 6:6,14. (4) Gal 5:24; Ro 8:13. (5) Col 1:11; Eph 3:16-19. (6) 2Co 7:1; Heb 12:14.
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Section 2.) This sanctification is throughout in the whole man,(1) yet imperfect in this life; there abideth still some remnants of corruption in every part:(2) whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.(3)
(1) 1Th 5:23. (2) 1Jn 1:10; Ro 7:18,23; Php 3:12. (3) Gal 5:17; 1Pe 2:11.
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Section 3.) In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail,(1) yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome;(2) and so, the saints grow in grace,(3) perfecting holiness in the fear of God.(4)
1. It’s why I read AW Tozer regularly & not Piper. 2. I cannot stand these Christian leaders twisting truth. 3. Not one of these leaders have volunteered 1 day in a crisis pregnancy clinic. Where I served people of all colors to help them choose life for their baby & a better life for themselves.
Amen, love and appreciate AW
So here is a problem, you read aw tozer and then you say Christian leaders twist truth. To what standard? Aw tozers?
So if they would have volunteered in a crisis pregnancy center, that would have made a difference?
So number 1,2 and 3 are thrown out.
Excellent video, thanks Jon!
You certainly called it Jon
As Christians, there can be many issues that are considered in the adiaphora but abortion is not one of them.
This is when GOD is most glorified. When HE saves Wretched, rebellious, helpless sinners that are in needing of a savior.
“Some wandered in the wilderness, lost and homeless. Hungry and thirsty, they nearly died. “Lord, help!” they cried in their trouble, and he rescued them from their distress. He led them straight to safety, to a city where they could live. Let them praise the Lord for his great love and for the wonderful things he has done for them. For he satisfies the thirsty and fills the hungry with good things. Some sat in darkness and deepest gloom, imprisoned in iron chains of misery. They rebelled against the words of God, scorning the counsel of the Most High. That is why he broke them with hard labor; they fell, and no one was there to help them. “Lord, help!” they cried in their trouble, and he saved them from their distress. He led them from the darkness and deepest gloom; he snapped their chains. Let them praise the Lord for his great love and for the wonderful things he has done for them. For he broke down their prison gates of bronze; he cut apart their bars of iron. Some were fools; they rebelled and suffered for their sins. They couldn’t stand the thought of food, and they were knocking on death’s door. “Lord, help!” they cried in their trouble, and he saved them from their distress. He sent out his word and healed them, snatching them from the door of death. Let them praise the Lord for his great love and for the wonderful things he has done for them. Let them offer sacrifices of thanksgiving and sing joyfully about his glorious acts.”
Psalms 107:4-22
Johnny Mack, right on!
God always has people who haven't 'bowed the knee to Baal' or for that matter to a social gospel. But why do any of these brothers and sisters have to be known as leaders of the church or best-selling authors or conference attendees, etc.? Our Lord has a history of spreading the work around and time is never an issue for him. So let us all each use our own gifts as best we can and leave the judging to 'He who holds judgement'; 'he who judges the earth.
We are called to test, warn, mark, and avoid.
@@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast
Church discipline is within the church. And following that if you don't 'win your brother' then what? Endless internet/social media squabbling? Presenting Christianity as just another one of many religions? Who's right; who's wrong? Who is my brother?
The accusations flow back-and-forth and never end; one can hardly keep up. And casting a critical eye on Christianity reveals a corporate entity that is little more than a wasteland of shifting doctrines. So is there any near future hope for anything more than a local family/house church?
Obey governing authority( do not break laws).Pray for our Leaders. Go and share the Gospel. It should have remained that simple,for the Church.
Thanks for this, I was wondering if anyone else was concerned with Piper's doctrine
At 8:45, the author of "The Vanishing American Adult" is Ben Sasse.
Shared.
Now I am interested in your cat who snuck in -- and I love Piper too!
Jon please show us your cat!
Thanks for the video brother. I want a t shirt that says "I tried Christian hedonism but I didn't enjoy it"
I don’t think many vote based only on the abortion issue, but if that were the only issue that separated the candidates I would vote pro-life. I think The two men in the clip are assuming a lot and their hypothetical cases are not helpful. I think one problem is many who vote with no thought of issues at all. We should develop our Christian worldview to help us vote based on moral truth as it applies to financial and social issues. I don’t idolize our current president at all but many of the policies implemented since his inauguration have been more pro- life, more protective of the constitutional rights of all people and have, in many cases increased the outward estate of many. I don’t agree with everything he has done or said, but will vote for him instead of the other candidate.
But there's no logical way for a Christian to justify voting for a pro-abortion candidate. Only God has the power to take away life. Saying that's a one-issue thing is pigeonholing. Democrats have draw line and said that a woman, for 9 or 10 months, can end a life. That is as wicked as wicked gets.
The Nebraskan senator is Ben Sasse,.the author of The Vanishing American Adult.
8:46 Senator Ben Sasse
Yep.
Piper should of been rebuked years ago in 2012 when he affirmed Rick Warren then Beth Moore let alone his glorifying the heretic CS Lewis....
Don't you think in Piper's quote he is getting at the same idea that Martin Luther says, "We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone." Also, James 2:14 "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?" I think it is the idea that you are saved by faith alone but out of that works follow not so that you will be made right with God, but flows out of what God has already done for you and in response to it. I do get what you mean by Piper's stuff though. I have read tons of Piper's stuff and also no longer recommend him all that often even though I benefitted greatly from his ministry in the past.
I never listened to piper couldn't stand the sound of his voice, also calvinism is based on logical deduction.
Calvinism, where God sends people to hell for not believing in what He never did for them. Makes sense.
Logical deduction?
More like illogical deduction. It does not even seem to be derived from the Bible and completely ignores the nature of God.
Oh my! That clip! Was that from a church service or a forum?
Looks like a 9 Marks forum in 2018
some good theology here.
Glad I watched this
@16:35 you take issue with Piper using joy and happiness interchangeably. Respectfully, that's how everyone treated the terms up until very recently. The earliest Christian writer I think you can trace making a distinction is Oswald Chambers in My Utmost for His Highest. Before that the terms were used interchangeably (as they often are in the Old Testament). The Puritans are a good example of this. Reading the prayer collection Valley of Vision you'll find many times where joy and happiness are treated as though interchangeable terms and Edwards often did this in his writings as well. I get the desire for the distinction which typically is joy=disposition resting in the eternal grace of God and happiness=an emotion resting on fleeting experiences. But the answer to that dilemma is not to redefine the words but to say the godliness of an affection is determined by its object which is Edwards' thesis in The Religious Affections.
I don't see how the words Christian and Hedonism can go together. How can they coexist?
Your kitty photo bomb at 6:18 min mark. =.=
Christian friends. Question- I am an Independant fundamental Baptist. The woke stuff seems to not have infected the IFB nearly as much as it has the evangelical churches. Does anyone else notice that, and if so, what do you think the reason is?
It borrows language that means something to Christians and distorts the biblical definition. It also plays on the natural empathy and love that we are called to have for each other.
It’s coming. I’ve gotten reports from inside Bob Jones that it’s already there.
I, too, am from a Fundamentalist background (raised in IFCA churches in NorCal, went to PCC for undergrad and graduate school before attending DTS, and my brothers went to PCC and BJU). I believe this issue, like so many, boils down to constituency. Broader evangelicalism was founded upon an appeal to common interests with the established culture (like the Herodians of Jesus' time, perhaps), whereas fundamentalism went the way of the Essenes of Jesus' time in withdrawing from society in order to preserve doctrinal and practical purity. Denouncing something so culturally momentous as Social Justice right now would be the third rail for big-time evangelical leaders because their constituency is so broad. Whereas a fundamentalist church or institution (like PCC, for instance, or BJU) may need to hew to different standards associated by their base with "keeping the faith," as in KJV-Onlyism in PCC's case or some other such issue (women not wearing pants, mixed bathing, etc.). As a pastor of a Conservative Baptist Church in Vermont now, I can see how any one of us as leaders runs up against what our own church deems to be standards of doctrinal or practical purity and, because our tenure depends upon popular support, is forced to reckon with what one of my Dallas Seminary professors called "institutional realities." I find that I often find myself considering how someone in my church might react and adjusting what I say. Of course, this is probably a question of balance or tone rather than compromise, at least in principle. I can say things that a member might disagree with but in a gracious way. But I do not think that there has ever been a pastor or Christian leader completely free of the fear of man except for Jesus Christ Himself. May He have mercy on us and keep us faithful to Him alone! God bless you, brother.
@@nhamkp I'm a PCC grad too my man, represent!
@@andrewcosta2760 Are you a pastor? When did you graduate?
Jon, Keep seeking the truth, with God speed.
On John Piper, Does he introduce Replacement Theology? What about his defense of Rick Warren? Finally has Piper promoted Roman Catholic inspired Contemplative Prayer ?
Has anyone heard about 2024 Separds conference. I saw Q&A with MacArthur and Piper. I think MacArthur seemed to agree with Pioer on hedonism. Did anyone else see that?
Jon, how hard would it be for you to put together a phone interview with any of these guys to press them on some of their ideas? It seems your mo is to read their stuff...read their stuff...read their stuff...watch their stuff...watch their stuff...and then attack it, usually in a critical manner. I'm sure at least SOME of these guys would welcome the opportunity from you to interview them and say, "I've read what you've said. Here's my problem with it," and then give them a chance to respond. Maybe you're not understanding it, OR maybe they could say it better and bring clarity, OR maybe they really are going nuts. All of them. At one time. Over a couple of issues. Men with hundreds of years of collective ministry and teaching between them, just suddenly going off the deep end. I would enjoy seeing you interview a Piper or any of these guys. I think they might actually be up for it, and I think it could be a really healthy, clarifying exercise. Just a suggestion.
“You do not get into heaven by faith alone.” - John Piper
This was on point
Jon, what piper is saying is how do we apply James 2:24 and Roman’s 4:3-5. James says in James 2:24 what most Christian’s do not want to hear. But the fact is if you do not show a new creation or a changed life you are not reborn. You your self believe that. James 2:24 only makes sense in that understanding. We have to see the vertical eph 2:8 Roman’s 5:1 and the horizontal Ephesians 2:10 James 2:24. Are you saved by faith? Yes immediately, but if you do not show a new creation you were not saved. Why? Because God puts the heart of flesh in you and when this happens you walk this way. We believe that if we are not trapped by easy believisim or antinomianisim. That’s all piper is saying. He just is using James language. We cannot pull a Martin Luther and say let’s remove James. We have to incorporate it/rightly divide. You said exactly the opposite of what James says “we are justified by faith not by works”. Go back and listen. Piper puts it into perspective. If you have been vertically saved Ephesians 2:8 then you will be finally justified horizontally because you shown you were justified vertically.
Why is Leeman an "authority" on these issues of politics for evangelicals? Why is he even speaking about the issues? I watched a podcast on Cross Politic, where they drill him with questions that he has no answer, has never thought about, issues. that if he is an expert in "the field" or in this arena, that he should have thought about. I don't understand why he gets the stage on these issues? What's his background?
The victim can't blame the oppressor bc the oppressor became an oppressor bc he was a victim of an oppressor at one time. See how ridiculous this whole thing is?