As a train driver, I’m kind of sad my job will eventually be lost to automation. But it’s obviously inevitably going to happen. I already switched away from one local commuter style company, where at the end I was driving the trains at level 2, so just observing and closing the doors. Now I’m at a long distance operator, so I’m back at level 1. My job is definitely still not future proof, but at least there’s a future there for me beyond this decade. Also, I’m no longer bored beyond belief while operating the train, like I was at my previous job - an obvious drawback of passively observing instead of actively driving.
Apart from metro style services, I think most people would feel pretty uneasy about driverless mainline services, especially if something goes wrong, as their job goes beyond just driving the train, so think its here to stay imo
@@ce1834 Honesty, as a big user of metros and trains, I have no problem with metros being automated, I've used automated lines a lot. They work perfectly and as sad as it might seem, it makes them more reliable as there are no strikes ( too common in cities like BCN or Paris ), making having the metro as your only option a real hassle. For trains, automating them might be a good option but I think there will always be the need to have at least one person who can drive the train if needed on board. But I guess this means there will be only one instead of 2-5 which is the case rn
its certainly rough, especially since i think most cargo trucks should be replaced by trains and some of the truck drivers retrained as traindrivers, but with how useful automating rail is thats pretty rough
@@jonathanodude6660 90% of freight rails in the us have been removed so that the private freight companies only have to pay upkeep on the ones that make the most money. saying all those were unfeasible despite being used for nearly a century is a load of shit trucks should be used going from source to rail terminal in a 50km radius and from terminal to end user in at most a 5km radius everything else is just better using rail
I ride the SkyTrain in British Columbia, Canada on a nearly daily basis and it is fully autonomous since its opening in 1985. Driverless aren't nothing new, we've had them since the 1960s and in fact most metro systems are automated to some extent with a grade of automation of two or three (with four being fully autonomous with no attendant needed). I'll say sitting in the front of the SkyTrain's (especially the Mark II and Mark III's) allows for amazing views, and allows for easy cab view videos of the ride.
I find it baffling that everyone thinks self-driving cars are "right around the corner" when even self-driving trains are still extremely rare, which seems like it would be a much easier problem to solve.
I think the main issue with automating non-metro train operations is more about cost-benefit than the technology itself. It's quite expensive to build a reliable communication system needed for autonomous operation over long distances in sparsely populated areas. It's much cheaper to just pay a driver that can handle spotty connectivity to the central control center. This is much less of a problem for metros which typically serve densely populated areas with established communication network. Also, for long distance trains, usually there's going to be a mix of trains with different levels of automation and availability of onboard equipment to allow automated operations. Automated trains often need to communicate with other trains on the same line to coordinate safe distance. If there's at least one train on that track that doesn't have the equipment for automated train communications, that restricts automated operations in that track. Again, much less of an issue with metros which is usually operated by a single operator and relatively uniform train set, so coordinating upgrades are easier. So automated operations only make sense in either densely populated areas where maintenance and communications are easier and reliable, and the train traffic is high enough to justify the upgrade; or when the train is running through very large sections of completely unpopulated areas where there's nearly zero practical concern of unexpected incidents and one company operates all trains in that track (usually remote mines).
@@reynaldorosas6373 radical unions are the reason why companies automate. just keep that in mind, with ever increasing and more unrealistic terms being demanded by a few radical unions, the cheaper automation starts to look you see this is every industry where wages and demands far out way the cost of a machine. as such the machine gets the job instead.
In the UK we have driverless trains on the DLR and many people mover systems. The London Underground has partial automation on lines like the Victoria and Jubilee lines. With mainline rail, the Elizabeth line and Thameslink network have a form of ATO in the core tunnel sections. Apart from that, I don't really see ATO technology being implemented on the wider main line network any time soon. It's much more complicated, especially when you have things like level crossings involved.
An ATO level 2 could be applied across the entire network and on all trains, both local and long-distance. According to railway companies, an ATO drives much better than a human, wastes less energy and can perform perfect braking and acceleration, without errors. The engineer would close the doors and watch, fighting against drowsiness precisely because he does nothing. I don't know if driving manually is prohibited on Thameslink, in some metro networks it is prohibited to drive manually, anyone who deactivates the ATO and drives manually could be fired, it is only allowed in case of system failure, just to clear the line, proceed slowly , it is not even certain that the drivers have sufficient information to be able to manually drive the train, because the communications between ATO and the distancing system are not visible. I know, for example, that many train drivers fall asleep while driving when they use the ATO or look at their cell phone or read, precisely because they don't know what to do all that time just looking, it is strictly forbidden to use the cell phone or sleep when they are under ATO but different workers have been punished, many flee from the ATO systems because they are considered torture. In stuttgart many train drivers are asking to be transferred because the S-Bahn will be automated with ETCS+ATO, working for hours and hours without doing anything must be horrible. It would be better to study something to completely and forever eliminate the train driver, rather than having a person who gets distracted or sleeps because the system does everything by itself, it's as if he didn't exist.
I was on a trip in Tokyo in late Dec 2023/early Jan 2024. I had the chance to ride in Yurikamome line from Shinbashi to Odaiba-Ariake-Shin Toyosu. Yurikamome line has level 4 automation. Completely driverless. In fact, i sat on the front seat and i didnt seem to recall there's manual control in the first place. The line seems like popular with lots of people because everyone rushing to get the front seat. 😅
Thanks for the great in-depth information. Yeah, and please make the other parts in the present series. Could you share the resource you use to make the video, like study material for research purpose?
As someone who was a train driver and who hopes to be one again some day, I still cannot embrace the idea (I am aware there are many examples already) but yeah, it is where things are going. Anyway, almost any job can and will be replaced with computers I suppose.
Autonomous trains already appeared in 1972 when ČSD (Now České Dráhy) filmed a Motorový vůz 852 or 853 testing the autonomous driving system name of the video is ČSD - Automatizace řízení
Very informative video as always. It's kinds crazy to me that Rio Pinto runs a nearly completely automated freight lime in Australia. I didn't know of any automated freight lines before this. Keep up the good work👍
there are already some accidents on the Rio Tinto railway, the autonomous driving algorithm had a bug and did not recognize another stationary train awaiting authorization to move, this resulted in the derailment of several wagons, naturally there were no injuries because there is no human. The line maintenance union said the system is very reliable and safe and Rio Tinto does not intend to back down on the self-driving system because it saves a lot of money by no longer having drivers to pay. The jokes of technology!
Imagine each wagon being able to drive on its own. So instead of trains with, say, 20 wagons each that stop at every stop and therefore waste time we could have each wagon going directly point to point.
If the automation can increase train operation accuracy like perfecting stop and acceleration in station, the train punctuality can be increased as the calculation of when train need to accelerate and slowing is perfected by computer. If the punctuality is great, that mean there is huge potential for operating train in high frequency safely, with the headway up close to one minute. Big frequency mean lot of trip that give lot of capacity per day and lot of flexibility for passenger to take the train.
every passenger's dream is the train without a crew, I wonder then when there will be breakdowns or problems with whom the passengers will argue, with the algorithm?
@@nasinopuzzolente5396 Definetely the nearest operator person from the train. Train automation have grades based on how far real human involved : Grade 0 is fully operated by human. Grade 1 is where signaling is automatic while train operation is handled by driver. Grade 2 is where train signaling and operation where automated but driver still present for specating the system and being in charge in case of emergency. Grade 3 is where the train is automated and no driver but train attendant present in case of emergency. Grade 4 is where the train operation are fully automated including case of emergency, yet still monitored from human in central operation control. Many newly built metro system in the world have at least grade 2 or 3. Grade 4 is applied when the system is still in close area from central operational control place. So even the system is automated, there are still human involved monitoring the system and being charged in case of emergency like the system failure or etc. The goal of automation is not really for replacing human but rather perfecting the operation of the train that done by human.
Copenhagens S-train is also planning driverless operation. Its first going to be tested on the semi cirkel F line between Hellerup and Ny Ellebjerg. Its planned to be deployed around 2033.
The Australian system reminds me of the current automation levels that are being implemented in aircraft health monitoring. Current aircraft are equipped with thousands of sensors that generates gigabytes or I've even been told terabytes of data which continuously gets analysed and if any fault is detected the aircraft will give a warning telling the pilots not to take off. I am wondering though if there are regulations in place for trains about this. Current aircraft sensors need a sensor that senses if the sensor is working ensuring that no critical error happens due to a faulty sensor (looking at you boeing) Is there a regulatory authority that ensures the safety of these automated vehicles and prohibits use if the standards are not met? I can only imagine what would happen if a crewless train has a faulty sensor in the doors for example and a person gets squashed between the door while the train leaves.
Can you make a video on broad gauge vs standard gauge with its pros and cons I am asking because of in India where I live there are in the whole country and the average speed is 80 to 100 kmh and the max speed is ofcourse operational speed is 110 to 130 kmh please make a video in deep with those gauges and I forget to tell you that with its max speed that can train can accelerate on both the gauges
One troubling aspect of automating everything introducing the added dimension of cyber security risks. What happens if the system gets hacked - do we risk no trains running at all until the situation's under control? Can the hackers cause trains to collide and cause terror?
No, the security measures in those systems are enormous and usually, the train can be 100% controlled remotely for precisely those reasons. With the remote control, you can only tell it where to go but the security decisions are made on board locally and are not modifiable remotely. And if something is wrong the default option is always to stop. Metros have used systems like this for years without a problem and even plains
Why do Europeans trains have bumpers, and North Americans don't? Europeans trains have a wide diversity of knuckles, while North Americans are all pretty much unified.
Because de adopting the same stadards is a recent thing (late 90s early 2000), for exaple differet country hsve differet gouge and differet elettric alimentation, but hsr across Europe use the same standard (alimentstion gouce and coupler)
Because de adopting the same stadards is a recent thing (late 90s early 2000), for exaple differet country hsve differet gouge and differet elettric alimentation, but hsr across Europe use the same standard (alimentstion gouce and coupler)
In China many jobs are carried out by AI, in fact many young people are unemployed, luckily the communist government gives them a small income to be able to make essential purchases
Check out other videos related to the railway innovations:
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As a train driver, I’m kind of sad my job will eventually be lost to automation. But it’s obviously inevitably going to happen. I already switched away from one local commuter style company, where at the end I was driving the trains at level 2, so just observing and closing the doors. Now I’m at a long distance operator, so I’m back at level 1. My job is definitely still not future proof, but at least there’s a future there for me beyond this decade. Also, I’m no longer bored beyond belief while operating the train, like I was at my previous job - an obvious drawback of passively observing instead of actively driving.
Apart from metro style services, I think most people would feel pretty uneasy about driverless mainline services, especially if something goes wrong, as their job goes beyond just driving the train, so think its here to stay imo
@@ce1834 Honesty, as a big user of metros and trains, I have no problem with metros being automated, I've used automated lines a lot. They work perfectly and as sad as it might seem, it makes them more reliable as there are no strikes ( too common in cities like BCN or Paris ), making having the metro as your only option a real hassle. For trains, automating them might be a good option but I think there will always be the need to have at least one person who can drive the train if needed on board. But I guess this means there will be only one instead of 2-5 which is the case rn
its certainly rough, especially since i think most cargo trucks should be replaced by trains and some of the truck drivers retrained as traindrivers, but with how useful automating rail is thats pretty rough
@@vincentgrinn2665 trucks are already mainly used in places where freight rail is unfeasible. unless you are from the US?
@@jonathanodude6660 90% of freight rails in the us have been removed so that the private freight companies only have to pay upkeep on the ones that make the most money.
saying all those were unfeasible despite being used for nearly a century is a load of shit
trucks should be used going from source to rail terminal in a 50km radius
and from terminal to end user in at most a 5km radius
everything else is just better using rail
I ride the SkyTrain in British Columbia, Canada on a nearly daily basis and it is fully autonomous since its opening in 1985. Driverless aren't nothing new, we've had them since the 1960s and in fact most metro systems are automated to some extent with a grade of automation of two or three (with four being fully autonomous with no attendant needed). I'll say sitting in the front of the SkyTrain's (especially the Mark II and Mark III's) allows for amazing views, and allows for easy cab view videos of the ride.
Too bad North America STILL is obsessed with trams
I find it baffling that everyone thinks self-driving cars are "right around the corner" when even self-driving trains are still extremely rare, which seems like it would be a much easier problem to solve.
Self driving metros are not rare but self driving mainline rail is rare
It seems that the potential of the rail is wasted.
The safety standards for operations of trains are higher than for operations of cars. Also self driving cars do not take organized labor jobs away
I think the main issue with automating non-metro train operations is more about cost-benefit than the technology itself.
It's quite expensive to build a reliable communication system needed for autonomous operation over long distances in sparsely populated areas. It's much cheaper to just pay a driver that can handle spotty connectivity to the central control center. This is much less of a problem for metros which typically serve densely populated areas with established communication network.
Also, for long distance trains, usually there's going to be a mix of trains with different levels of automation and availability of onboard equipment to allow automated operations. Automated trains often need to communicate with other trains on the same line to coordinate safe distance. If there's at least one train on that track that doesn't have the equipment for automated train communications, that restricts automated operations in that track. Again, much less of an issue with metros which is usually operated by a single operator and relatively uniform train set, so coordinating upgrades are easier.
So automated operations only make sense in either densely populated areas where maintenance and communications are easier and reliable, and the train traffic is high enough to justify the upgrade; or when the train is running through very large sections of completely unpopulated areas where there's nearly zero practical concern of unexpected incidents and one company operates all trains in that track (usually remote mines).
@@reynaldorosas6373 radical unions are the reason why companies automate. just keep that in mind, with ever increasing and more unrealistic terms being demanded by a few radical unions, the cheaper automation starts to look
you see this is every industry where wages and demands far out way the cost of a machine. as such the machine gets the job instead.
In the UK we have driverless trains on the DLR and many people mover systems. The London Underground has partial automation on lines like the Victoria and Jubilee lines. With mainline rail, the Elizabeth line and Thameslink network have a form of ATO in the core tunnel sections. Apart from that, I don't really see ATO technology being implemented on the wider main line network any time soon. It's much more complicated, especially when you have things like level crossings involved.
An ATO level 2 could be applied across the entire network and on all trains, both local and long-distance. According to railway companies, an ATO drives much better than a human, wastes less energy and can perform perfect braking and acceleration, without errors. The engineer would close the doors and watch, fighting against drowsiness precisely because he does nothing. I don't know if driving manually is prohibited on Thameslink, in some metro networks it is prohibited to drive manually, anyone who deactivates the ATO and drives manually could be fired, it is only allowed in case of system failure, just to clear the line, proceed slowly , it is not even certain that the drivers have sufficient information to be able to manually drive the train, because the communications between ATO and the distancing system are not visible. I know, for example, that many train drivers fall asleep while driving when they use the ATO or look at their cell phone or read, precisely because they don't know what to do all that time just looking, it is strictly forbidden to use the cell phone or sleep when they are under ATO but different workers have been punished, many flee from the ATO systems because they are considered torture. In stuttgart many train drivers are asking to be transferred because the S-Bahn will be automated with ETCS+ATO, working for hours and hours without doing anything must be horrible. It would be better to study something to completely and forever eliminate the train driver, rather than having a person who gets distracted or sleeps because the system does everything by itself, it's as if he didn't exist.
Very useful for Local Transit systems
Yes, definitely
ATO over ETCS on a high speed railway up to 360km/h should be really interesting on HS2
the ticket will not cost less because he drives a robot that has no salary
Back in 1998 the Transrapid 08 was already tested for autonomous driving. The next model 09 was already fully ready for it.
I would like a video for DAC. Thank you for your very competent explaining.
I was on a trip in Tokyo in late Dec 2023/early Jan 2024. I had the chance to ride in Yurikamome line from Shinbashi to Odaiba-Ariake-Shin Toyosu.
Yurikamome line has level 4 automation. Completely driverless. In fact, i sat on the front seat and i didnt seem to recall there's manual control in the first place. The line seems like popular with lots of people because everyone rushing to get the front seat. 😅
Thanks for the great in-depth information. Yeah, and please make the other parts in the present series. Could you share the resource you use to make the video, like study material for research purpose?
As someone who was a train driver and who hopes to be one again some day, I still cannot embrace the idea (I am aware there are many examples already) but yeah, it is where things are going.
Anyway, almost any job can and will be replaced with computers I suppose.
There are autonomous metros in Shanghai, 5 out of 20 lines.
Autonomous trains already appeared in 1972 when ČSD (Now České Dráhy) filmed a Motorový vůz 852 or 853 testing the autonomous driving system name of the video is ČSD - Automatizace řízení
I'm from Hamburg and I didn't even knew about this even though I am driving tge S21
Very informative video as always. It's kinds crazy to me that Rio Pinto runs a nearly completely automated freight lime in Australia. I didn't know of any automated freight lines before this. Keep up the good work👍
Thanks for watching!
@@RailwaysExplained No problem. Thanks for creating top quality videos🙂
there are already some accidents on the Rio Tinto railway, the autonomous driving algorithm had a bug and did not recognize another stationary train awaiting authorization to move, this resulted in the derailment of several wagons, naturally there were no injuries because there is no human. The line maintenance union said the system is very reliable and safe and Rio Tinto does not intend to back down on the self-driving system because it saves a lot of money by no longer having drivers to pay. The jokes of technology!
Imagine each wagon being able to drive on its own. So instead of trains with, say, 20 wagons each that stop at every stop and therefore waste time we could have each wagon going directly point to point.
US freight carriers: write that down write that down
If the automation can increase train operation accuracy like perfecting stop and acceleration in station, the train punctuality can be increased as the calculation of when train need to accelerate and slowing is perfected by computer. If the punctuality is great, that mean there is huge potential for operating train in high frequency safely, with the headway up close to one minute. Big frequency mean lot of trip that give lot of capacity per day and lot of flexibility for passenger to take the train.
every passenger's dream is the train without a crew, I wonder then when there will be breakdowns or problems with whom the passengers will argue, with the algorithm?
@@nasinopuzzolente5396 Definetely the nearest operator person from the train.
Train automation have grades based on how far real human involved :
Grade 0 is fully operated by human.
Grade 1 is where signaling is automatic while train operation is handled by driver.
Grade 2 is where train signaling and operation where automated but driver still present for specating the system and being in charge in case of emergency.
Grade 3 is where the train is automated and no driver but train attendant present in case of emergency.
Grade 4 is where the train operation are fully automated including case of emergency, yet still monitored from human in central operation control.
Many newly built metro system in the world have at least grade 2 or 3. Grade 4 is applied when the system is still in close area from central operational control place. So even the system is automated, there are still human involved monitoring the system and being charged in case of emergency like the system failure or etc. The goal of automation is not really for replacing human but rather perfecting the operation of the train that done by human.
Copenhagens S-train is also planning driverless operation.
Its first going to be tested on the semi cirkel F line between Hellerup and Ny Ellebjerg.
Its planned to be deployed around 2033.
The Australian system reminds me of the current automation levels that are being implemented in aircraft health monitoring. Current aircraft are equipped with thousands of sensors that generates gigabytes or I've even been told terabytes of data which continuously gets analysed and if any fault is detected the aircraft will give a warning telling the pilots not to take off. I am wondering though if there are regulations in place for trains about this. Current aircraft sensors need a sensor that senses if the sensor is working ensuring that no critical error happens due to a faulty sensor (looking at you boeing) Is there a regulatory authority that ensures the safety of these automated vehicles and prohibits use if the standards are not met? I can only imagine what would happen if a crewless train has a faulty sensor in the doors for example and a person gets squashed between the door while the train leaves.
No more strikes.
Can you make a video on broad gauge vs standard gauge with its pros and cons I am asking because of in India where I live there are in the whole country and the average speed is 80 to 100 kmh and the max speed is ofcourse operational speed is 110 to 130 kmh please make a video in deep with those gauges and I forget to tell you that with its max speed that can train can accelerate on both the gauges
Nice video but why didn't wasn't there a segment on the autonomous Fuxing Hao that China started for the Olympics? Unless I missed it.
Do the Hamburg lines with ATO mentioned have level crossings?
One troubling aspect of automating everything introducing the added dimension of cyber security risks. What happens if the system gets hacked - do we risk no trains running at all until the situation's under control? Can the hackers cause trains to collide and cause terror?
No, the security measures in those systems are enormous and usually, the train can be 100% controlled remotely for precisely those reasons. With the remote control, you can only tell it where to go but the security decisions are made on board locally and are not modifiable remotely. And if something is wrong the default option is always to stop. Metros have used systems like this for years without a problem and even plains
FANTASTIC, FANTASTIC video my good and dear friend, it really is fantastic just like all your videos 🤩🤩🤩🤩. Like 547 👍 and new subscriber!!!!!!!
Thank you!
0:55 hello sydney metro
Why do Europeans trains have bumpers, and North Americans don't? Europeans trains have a wide diversity of knuckles, while North Americans are all pretty much unified.
Because de adopting the same stadards is a recent thing (late 90s early 2000), for exaple differet country hsve differet gouge and differet elettric alimentation, but hsr across Europe use the same standard (alimentstion gouce and coupler)
Because de adopting the same stadards is a recent thing (late 90s early 2000), for exaple differet country hsve differet gouge and differet elettric alimentation, but hsr across Europe use the same standard (alimentstion gouce and coupler)
it is already in operation in China a few years ago.
Only a handful of lines do this.
In China many jobs are carried out by AI, in fact many young people are unemployed, luckily the communist government gives them a small income to be able to make essential purchases
0:36 Hamar...
🐈⬛
DRIVELESS doesn't mean AUTONOMOUS, you just wanna trigger CURIOUS people/VIEW
Metro... why not. Its enclosed, mostly safe system.
But automating trains on surface is rather a poor idea.