You can find Applecork’s art from this video and more in the links below: Website: www.ainsworth-lin.com/ ArtStation: www.artstation.com/artwork/ykezg9 Instagram: instagram.com/apple_cork/?hl=en EDIT: Not for nothin', but if you're fine with space dragons, talking bear gods and Egyptian god furries, but you're coming into my comments like "a fat woman being a good archer is nOT rEaLiSTIc!!!!" then you really need to check your head.
My headcanon now is that Apple Corc's version is current ashe and yours is her in the future, since as of now, she's a leader, but not a mother, her people still struggle to get by, and she is not one to live in extravagance (getting more than her peers).
Plus-sized Ashe seems more motherly and nurturing, really what her character is all about, plus the muscle and fat is necessary for a frozen tundra, I cannot agree more !
Someone pointed out in the livestream that making ashe big or plump might miscommunicate her playstyle, as in game she is supposed to be very fragile. It looks like this design would be better suited for a tank
@@fireguardianx when I heard Skyen talk about his design I thought the same thing,Ashe in the Future where she created the frelijord of her dream would look just like that. Good job Tbskyen,I really liked this video and your design of Ashe made me really happy.
I don't prefer bigger body types, and/but/although I don't have much experience nor skill drawing I really want to make my own design and show the nurture side of the ideal differently. Maybe incorporate a gift a child would give, or a different "softer" relaxed pose. Also I would def add a reminder that she is willing to defend her people first and foremost(idk if its correct) by actually making the bow part of her design to add to the silhouette. I also thought about making the human touch to her to make her more 'civil' and calm(because sejuani is savage and lissandra is stiff af), a necklace, make her boots thicker(cuz snow), add a small sidebag/pouch(maybe even a bigger bag, at least I know I go everywhere with one of these even when Im not intending to carry anything, but if we talking rural then having some of the most handy and small tools with you can't hurt that much). AND I DON'T want to believe I am proposing this but... cut her hair short or put it in a bun and have her hood down. Wouldn't it get in the way of literally everything?
Honestly, Apple Cork's and Tbskyen's designs look like the same character at different points in her life. The former is Ashe when she was in her prime and constantly having to fight. While the latter is Ashe when she's older, stepped away from fighting to govern more, and maybe even having succeeded in some of her goals.
Yeah both designs are quite inspired. I could even see both being their own characters-- one a mentor for the other providing guidance and wisdom, etc.
A side effect of making Ashe bigger, especially with her white hair, is that it makes her look older. While this definitely emphasizes the 'mother' aspect, it does take away from the young idealist that she represents.
I don't really like that in this design she's bigger. Freljordians have to constantly fight for everything, and so food is quite rare there. Ashe being bigger in the freljordian context means she's greedy and taking the food of her tribe, which is the opposite of what she is. There's also a problem with the gamemplay and this design. Look how every squishy character is small and skinny while tanks are big and beefy. Making a squishy character big would just confuse everyone, as we all already know the codes of designs and what they mean. I would agree that this body type would work for Sejuani but not Ashe, who's supposed to be agile and a scouter in the lore.
@@lcdc_azuralie I believe that the thematic intentions behind that design were to emphasize that Ashe is not really a fighter, so much as she is an idealized mother to her people who rejects violence and seeks solely to unify the freljord. However, I agree with you that the design doesn't really work in practice because even if Ashe is trying to avoid combat, she's still a powerful, capable warrior and when you've got forces like Sejuani and Lissandra running amok and deliberately inciting conflict, not fighting just isn't an option. Making Ashe plus sized makes her seem lazy or overly soft, in this context because even if she tries to avoid it, she knows that conflict is in her and her peoples' future and would know to be prepared for it.
@@stardustorchard9316 Well anyone would be if they were able to do what he does, he is based at least partially off old strongmen form the early 20th century, also he is constantly carrying a giant 3-inch thick solid metal door like its nothing. another thing is that while Braum looks really big he's not fat by any means he looks like a bodybuilder.
@@stardustorchard9316 Braum is muscular, not ''fat''. He's holding onto a big ass door every single day, so he can be muscular, but being fat in freljord isn't possible unless you're taking all the food for yourself and being greedy, which is the opposite of Ashe
Tbh i like more the warrior aesthetic that applecork chose, not oversexualizing the character and giving her some armor Even if the's supposed to challenge freljord's brutal nature, she needs at least something to protect herself both from the winter and the winter's claw
I always felt that Ashe with her troubles lived through her physical prowess at day to day basis. I never *saw* anyone of wider body who also spends every day working physically. Put some fat in bodies like B3? for me it would be ok, but the whole D group doesn't seem to me like 'Ashe' I would recognize.
I agree, but even if they were to keep her current model making her "bigger" with armor and fur, it would send the same message. Something sort of like what Sej has.
I agree. And his point on her needing to have a more solid build and muscles is really good. People underestimate the sheer amount of upper body strength it requires to weild a bow and arrow day in and day out.
And still being an homage to her current looks. It's probably better to not change her too drastically for the people who like her the way she is. And y'know it's a video game.
Personally, I think Applecork's design is much more fitting for Ashe. I'm all for having more varied body types for female champions in the game and I actually do really like TB's design in general, but I don't think it really fits Ashe herself.
I loved this, especially hearing the thought process behind it! I personally think Applecork's design fits a lot better for *current* Ashe, specifically because she *doesn't* fit the Avarosan ideal yet. She's still young, stressed, and in the process of trying to make her vision a reality. I also immediately recognise her as "Ashe", as if someone just took the blank design of OG Ashe and added character she's supposed to have. I can definitely see an older version of the war-MOTHER design being *future* Ashe - Ashe at the height of her power, depicting and displaying the Avarosan ideals fully.
Ah yes, I couldn’t put it to words why I preferred Applecork’s design. I do really like the ideas behind Warmother Ashe though, it really fits a future version of Ashe.
for sure yeah, Applecork did an absolutely amazing job. Their one embodies 'defiant optimism', which is much more appealing to me (and consistent with the Avarosans) than the 'fresh-faced optimism' I interpret from current Ashe. Those face scars are so hot, amazing what just a few of them can accomplish. I really appreciate redesigns that build on top of an existing character. For instance, Ashe looked great in the Legends Never Die video; some people might dislike that being retconned/somewhat invalidated with a rework that departs too far from the original design.
i prefer the first, but love the ideas of the second. i think a 30 yr old, middle version would help bridge the gap as the first design is basically just ashe as she is now. but the warMOTHER is going a bit too far, both for the game and in lore.
Not to impose my thought but H seems too harsh and "boss-lady" face and a bit old. H reminds of runeterra's cards like Tianna Crownguard (Garen and Lux's mother) and Scarmother Vrynna (Possibly Sejuani's mother and former leader of the Winter's Claw). I love both those ladies/mother figures but i don't think they are the right kind of harsh and fierce you want for people in need.
A bow asks a lot of strength to be used though, much like a powerful gun will ask you to have a solid stance to take the recoil. Maintaining the bow drawn, to aim decently, takes its toll on muscles.
@@commentateur-connaisseur-c1414 in real life - yes. but we're talking about visual language in games here, which rarely has anything to do with real life. when designing a character for a game you need to first think how their appearance translates to their role. if a character is supposed to be tanky it must look bulky and big so that at a first glance (even if you're not familiar with that character) you know exactly what type of opponent you're facing. so if an archer's supposed to be fragile and easy to kill you MUST make them look like they're easy to kill
Definitely agree, this should've been addressed in the design. The 'fuller figure' should just be a regular size 12, which would still suggest plenty to me, along with the cape design of the other warrior ash (to reduce the visual weight of the model) IMO
@@commentateur-connaisseur-c1414 she would be more muscular, yes, like the artist's design. He did admitted that the warrior aspect of her is removed in his design
I like apple_cork's design for a present Ashe, the one we get to play as in the game. She has to be physically capable to defend her tribe, so her looking jacked fits. But i also Skyen's Ashe, as what she would look like the future, when she achieves her peaceful goals and get older.
She's an archer though, all she really needs is some muscle but she doesn't need to be thin or particularly athletic to shoot arrows. In game, her character is about low mobility balanced out by inflicting slows. Theres no aspect to her gameplay that signifies needing to be physically fit in the same way that say, Samira needs to be. You can be a warrior and not be slim, moreso I think her current character design does her the biggest disservice due to the lack of any muscularity
agreed, TB's Ashe would be an awesome npc in the League MMO if it were set several years forward for instance. imagine matronly Ashe, grandpa Tryndamere and badass Nunu in the same room, that would be so dope
Honestly I think that Skyen's Ashe looks exactly like how Ashe plays in game. She's strong enough to shoot, and it's obvious at a glance that this character is unlikely to be tumbling around or leaping into the air. She suits the playstyle of Ashe more than in game Ashe does.
@@lucad9667 I assume by bending her arms what you actually mean is, assuming she has the strength to draw the bow fully, would her chest area disrupt the shot? To which, speaking for plus sized bowmen of the male variety, the answer is no. So don't worry about that. Also what long skirt? Aside from Queen Ashe her skirts are always short as heck. That being said I do like Queen Ashe.
I love the idea of Ashe having a wide, strong back. Not just because of how being an archer should logically affect her physicality, but also because, a warrior queen whose philosophy is all about the protection of her community, it speaks to me how inspiring she needs to be able to look from behind. She puts herself on the front lines. Her people are behind her. Her back is what they see when they look to her. I love the idea of those who depend on her seeing her back and feeling the safety of an insurmountable wall between them and a coming conflict.
I feel like both designs can exist in the same universe, apple's design fits really well for today's ashe because she's starting this whole cooperation thing, then years go by and Ashe is successfull and everyone is happy and united, she can embody the ideals of the avarosans better, so skyen's design fits perfectly
Based and pogpilled, one thing that actually wasn’t really referenced was that a bit extra body fat is also more useful to someone living in a cold climate, especially someone fighting in a cold climate.
I like that you guys went for "War" theme and a "Mother" (as in caretaker, queen) theme which by itself already is a leap forward in making her reflect ANY part of her concept on paper.
The “Warrior Ashe” looks ideal for her current moment, having to defend her ideals... but also living in a conflict ridden moment of her history, while the “Mother Ashe” looks like how she would be 10-15 years down the line, after overcoming gnawing hunger and strife for years, having left the frontline of conflict to the next generation, and strode further in her phylosophical path, as a counselor and respectable figure for all, both subject and stranger, after her path had been proven to be right all along. Really loved the video, Ashe was my 1st main ever, and i’d really like her visuals to have much more “character” than “pretty bow bikini lady”. Thanks for the video❤️
I'm in love with applecorks redesign. It's now my head cannon that she looks like applecorcks eteration in the present and like skyens in the future when she is a bit older and has somewhat come closer to peace in the flerjord.
I like how your Ashe also contrasts Tryndamere in a way, him being a buff scary tower of a man, representing strength and brutality of past Freljord, and her being a vision of future Freljord, healthy, calm and nurturing. Loved the vid!
I love both of these but I’ll go with Applecork’s as my favorite. As much as I love Chubby Momma Ashe, the scarcity inherent in the Freljord setting (at least currently) it leads my thoughts to “the rich feasting while the poor starve” instead of the Avarosan ideals of sharing the wealth around. That being said, in a less cutthroat world I’d absolutely want her to be my WarmMother. ❤️
Please do Janna next. She has so much potential. An ancient goddess praised by sailors, whose cult has been forgotten, then re-discovered and updated to fit the polluted state of Zaun, it's just amazing. And she looks like a model from an underwear magazine cover...
@@thomascochran7907 to be fair there is a big difference between nudity and underwear, nudity or very minor skimpy but elglant accessories can be used to show an unearthly beauty, this not a human but much more, they are litterally too godlike and majestic to be covered up by mere clothes, etc. Janna is wearing simple unnapealing underwear for no apparent reason, tbh it would be a much better character design to just make her naked, though obviously that wouldnt work for a video game and also would be very much a cop out.
@@warcheddar4163 I mean that could be a explanation to why the gods are naked, or it could be reaching or making excuses. Making other characters more stand out and less reliant on sex appeal might be a god idea, but Janna’s level of sex appeal matches her character and lore pretty well.
@@thomascochran7907 Making Janna have lots of sex appeal could definlty work as a character design, similar to evelyn in a way, the thing is is that Janna's constume isnt that sexy, the underwear she is wearing look very odd and plain, so its more a problem of they tried to make her sexy but she just really isnt
@@Chowder_T I completely agree with everything Skyen says on sexuality and design, also this part about males being sexy - I also love his "rants" on Ashe, Kaisa and Evelynn, Ahri, and likewise Sett and also the not-so-well-done male sexy characters. I just misread or misinterpreted Capivara's first post, so I didn't know was they were refering to.
Wow, that's some high-quality content. Loved the video. It was really nice to see two completed concepts with different goals and hearing the thought process behind each. Apple Cork killed it on the art, too.
I feel like your design is better suited for Ashe after she establishes peace, while Applecork's is a greater representation for a fighting Ashe. Anyways great video dude
I have never been interested in league of legends, heck I’ve never been interested in playing games all together. But as an aspiring character designer watching your videos just really pumps me up for drawing , whether your hyping a design up or calming explaining why it doesn’t work it really helps me look at my own designs and think about them more
I like both Ashes, but for different reasons. Applecork's Ashe is perfect, it's the same champion that we know from the very beginning, but it has been adapted to today's realities and tells perfectly about her role in the world and her problems - as a young leader struggling with a harsh climate, war and the burden of leading "weak" people, etc. Your version, on the other hand, looks like it comes from a 20-year-old timeskip - when she doesn't have to keep fighting anymore because she achieved her goals, she managed to unite the Freljord, built a couple of new cities, improved the well-being of her people, developed agriculture and animal husbandry, began to enter into trade agreements with external countries, etc. - which is perfect, and "current Ashe" definitely dreams of this fate. In my opinion, both versions are amazing, because they can represent Ashe's development over the years and outline her character depending on the historical realities in the Freljord.
This is just... gosh, so cool. I love the thought you've put into every element of the designs. Both are amazing, but the second one- one which actually would take a body that looks like mine, and use it as a symbol of a powerful and caring warrior and leader- is just very cool. Thank you so much!
I want to start by saying that I'm a big fan of both of these designs. As you said, each one represents one side of her character and I think they do so very well. Also, wow this is a high effort video. Those characters look like they could be slotted into the game as is and be a big step up from current Ashe, so you definitely succeeded in your goal. One small issue I have with both is one of realism in the armour. As an archer, the bracer on her left arm should protect the inside of it from the bowstring, whereas those straps on the bracer could catch and cause more injury. Also, while a left shoulder pauldron is a common indicator that a character is warlike, it doesn't make so much sense on an archer. It limits her range of motion in that arm while giving minimal protection from the primary threat at bow range: being shot back at. That said, as a figurehead of her tribe the symbolism is more important than practicality so it makes perfect sense for a queen and commander. And of course like you said in your pinned comment, League is not known for its hyper-realism so this is a very minor thing.
Joined Patreon to see this video early, and am very pleased with the value for my pledge. Thanks for a good vid, Skyen. I love Subjectively's series, but one thing he and the team there tends not to think about - I suspect because of their lack of experience with it, which is no shame or repudiation on them - is gameplay legibility. I think that Apple's design, which is very similar to the SixMoreVodka design from LoR, fits the needs for gameplay legibility. Other thank Corki, who is a unique exception, and to a lesser extent Graves, marskmen are intentionally the smallest, thinnest characters for a reason. Yes, Aphelios' boyband prettiness might be a little confusing for some folks, but his slender frame accurately communicates his gameplay role and helps to emphasize his "backliner" playstyle. Other roles and playstyles also want to maintain backline presence, but the focus on physical damage - specifically through basic attacks - necessitates a character who communicates a specific physicality, what you would think of as "ranger" or "rogue" in generic fantasy terms, and even then, more the former than the latter. The latter is the design language that Riot uses to communicate the capability of assassins like Akali, Ekko, Yasuo, Yone, Master Yi, and Viego: Minimal armor, emphasis on the weapon and the lithe and nimble nature of its wielder. They communicate, visually, that they are quite mobile and that their focus is damage. Because of her role, Ashe's body type and design are somewhat limited to match the gameplay legibility conveyed by the visual language Riot has developed. As a result, she has to be, at minimum, athletic. I personally love the new face shape, the facial scarring, and the general tilt toward "hardiness" in Apple's design. The only piece of criticism I'd offer is its tendency (as with a lot of League characters) to be overly symmetrical, especially in silhouette. League broadly relies on characters' weapons to break up their silhouette, but Ashe is especially not good with this.
I definetly get what you mean. Due to the running themes of visual aid Riot has to communicate characters, it doesnt leave much room for plus size marksman. I like to think of these designs though as seperate from gameplay and focus more on lore and story.
I was thinking about the body forms when watching the video and next thing I see is this comment. Gotta go fast next time. Riot recently uploaded a post about silhouhettes in game and mencioned that same idea. In there, they talk about how Senna shape is mostly intentionally overwhelmed by her big gun, which really express how Senna is a slow shooter compared to Jinx but higher caliber, similar to Caitlyn. In this case, it is possible to give her design something more remarkable than her body to claim gameplay attention, being the most prominent her cloak. With Apple's design this idea is, maybe unintentionally, done just because her cloak takes most of her body. In Skyen is a bit harder and I do agree that, maybe an athletic body works better for her even. The idea of abundance and "War"mother is really great but sadly doesn't work on a adc. I was thinking that maybe the skinnier design or the E column might work for that concept of "Anti-Survival of the fittest". The idea of being weeks starving and then putting others above herself can contribute to the skinny body type, but of course not in a sexual way. Only problem with that is the warrior side of Ashe is going to decrease considerably. Anyways, I love the vid. Good mid time of hours of school and have a nice day people.
Ashe's gameplay has no mobility though, theres nothing she does that would require athleticism aside from upper body strength (which a larger woman could most definitely have). None of her abilities give her a need to move. Compare that to say Akali, who is constantly jumping and dashing like of course Akali needs to be thin. Same goes for like Kalista, jumping around in part of her kit. Ashe stands there and fires arrows like she doesn't need to be a size 2, she has no mobility. The aspect I would agree with however is the correlation between size and tankiness, have a heavier ashe could be confusing because players might get the impression she is tanky when she is defs not
My biggest criticism of not either design, but if Ashe as a character, is that she sports two identities simultaneously. She doesn’t have a lane. Applecork went in the direction of more of a hard-bitten, frost archer warrior. I think this works well for Ashe for multiple reasons, mostly gameplay legibility, as you’ve mentioned. But also it communicates that the environment Ashe is in is extraordinarily unforgiving. There is very little food, and what is killed must be used in its entirety. However, this concept completely sacrifices Ashe’s aesthetic as a compassionate, caring and unifying agent of the Freiljord, (something her base design doesn’t capture in the first place, let me make that clear.), and her connection to hawks, which are symbolic of war, is also troublesome. A character that shoots frosted arrows, lives in an unforgiving wasteland, has battle scars, has a strong connection to a war bird, and wearing any animal products whatsoever, whether for practical purposes or vanity, makes an incredibly well-saturated design for an aggressive warmonger character. It does NOT communicate that this is an agent of compassion, unity, and peace. I feel that Skyen does an... okayish job with remedying this, and straddling the line. However, the connection to hawks is still there, and it sacrifices the communication that food in the Freiljord is extremely scarce, and the tribes will sometimes have to March for days to find even one animal to gorge on, knowing they may not eat for a week. In my opinion, there is no prefect design that could embody Ashe as a character in her current iteration in the story. I would be extremely happy to be proven wrong.
The word I haven't heard before and ringed in my ears was "Hearth-bound" and by the time you went on the rough sketches and body types C1 drew all my attention along side the G face like a magnet. "WarMOTHER" as a gentle younger woman, fierce and with the weight of the world on her shoulders. Way more caring and welcoming! I can't describe how much i loved this!!!!
Chunky Ashe is Ashe in 20 years in the future Just imagine, that the Avarosan tribe grew so much that she stop fighting after having kids, and the kids are leading the battle with Tryndamare and she focus exclusively in the manage of the tribe
Applecork is very talented these creations are absolutely incredible. Ps definitely do more of these! I get these would take a lot longer and you have other series to focus on currently but it would be a shame to let a series like this be a one-and-done thing.
god the way you explain everything is sooo smart. I've been a character illustrator and animator for a decade and a half and I still feel like I'm learning a ton. bravo
34:25: If there's any way to make a character design reject the ideals of a warrior culture while still looking like a warrior, I'd love to hear it. That seems like quite a circle to square. 0:50: For that matter, it means you can't criticize the creations of full-time artists unless you can devote an equivalent amount of time to your own creations-and not the things you're personally _inspired_ to create, mind, just the creations you make to prove you can do it better than X. 12:50: As I said in the Braum hot-take short, it's not so much that Ashe isn't wearing Freljord clothes as it is that the clothes she isn't wearing aren't Freljordian. Which is a somewhat convoluted way of saying that Ashe's design wouldn't be nearly so bad if it matched the Freljord's aesthetic like Braum does, but I'll take convolution with a side of attempted-wit any day. 27:50: Is there a better representation of wasting design space on sexy than leaving a champion's skin a blank canvas? 37:25: While I like Skyen's design on its own-it's a lot more unique and memorable than Apple Cork's-in a gameplay contexts it suggests a tanky support character more than a quick-footed archer. I guess it's kind of odd that the anti-war tribal leader performs such a purely aggressive combat role, but it's the character's mechanical role and the design would need to reflect that.
You can still criticize creators and their work you know? Amount of effort isn't equal to quality of product. I will give an example. I work at a restaurant and let say I serve you undercooked burger. While you don't know the meat I use, the way I male the sauces, the onion, the bacon and the fact that I have to take care of other customers you still will understand where I fucked up. You can still criticize me for serving you undercooked burger, *even* if you know what I have to do and realize where it goes wrong, even if you yourself can't replicate the same burger.
I think neither design really captures who ashe really should be - a woman as quick of foot as she is of mind, who most likely hides in combat and strikes not agressively but defensively. maybe the bushes could be integrated into her design, too, since cait's the only adc that does that even though she's from a place most likely devoid of vegetation, and it adds to the feeling of hunting, which is also part of what her tribe does for a living.
Rejecting the ideas of warrior culture mostly depends on the warrior culture you're rejecting. If that culture primarily is about strength or raw power, the character could be more of a finesse or skill based fighter. This would allow them to still be a "warrior" but reject the ideals of the warrior culture they are from.
Honestly, I wouldn't call her style of adc to be purely aggressive. She tends to play back and make more strategic calls with her ultimate and hawkfrost vision. Playing somewhat defensive in her passive. But eh.
This..this was amazing. It genuinely makes me sad knowing that this will never be a reality. His and ESPECIALLY your design just breathed so much life into this character that I regularly dont like due to her poor and basic design just repels me. Thank you for this video :) genuinely loved it
The type of bow an archer uses also has an impact on their physicality. Longbows take a lot of regular practice to use, because the muscle strain required to use them deforms the arms and back of the user over time, but are extremely effective over a long distance, even against armored opponents. If Ashe is using a longbow, her arms, shoulders, and back would be JACKED.
As someone who is plus size, I really enjoy the design choice you went with! Also you can be athletic AND plus size! I think that’s something that could have been personally explored a lot better. I like the idea as plus size because often in very cold environments, more weight means better resistance to the cold, and even if it’s not intentional, I still really enjoy the designs you went with. There’s only a limited amount of characters on RUclips comments and my thoughts aren’t fully collected, but oh man I do have a lot to say!
25:23 B1 is my absolute favorite she looks so powerful and royal, while still looking like she knows her way around her homeland. It gives her the “relatable but better than us” vibe which would totally justify her followers devotion to her. In my opinion obviously
Honestly, I really like the direction Apple(the artist) went. What I think would make her more unique and show more of her lore and the pain she's been through would be a scarred, blind eye. It might be too much though.
I feel like that risks going into the territory the Winter's Claw occupies, though it could also serve as a way to signify the connection between Ashe and Sejuani
I have a a small nitpick about plus size, rich Ashe. I would 100% agree on the "there is plenty of everything for everyone" but because shes from the land of snow, cold and lack of food, making her obviously wealthy may read as a problematic. That's the design choice I would pick for some kind of "bad guy" someone that has power and uses it to steal resources from people who need it to survive in the snow. Cold mountains dont have much to offer, and making character that has this amount of wealth on them and is obviously well fed does not make them a motherly figure.
Amazing video, at first I didn’t agree with your idea for plus sized Ashe because of the scarcity of food in the freljord, however with her idea of there being plenty, and “if we work together we can all survive” I realized that it would be amazing for her to be plus sized.
This is my most favorite concept on yt! I use to watch subjectively and himechan, but sadly I dont know more creators who would do this. U could definitely continue with this. also the quality was just on another level
I just realised that League of Legends is basically the equivalent of taking your fanfiction OCs, changing little details about them and throwing them into an original setting.
This was incredible! Hope you do more work along this line, time and resources permitting! I really think that Core's design would work great in game, serving both gameplay and lore, while maintaining continuity for dedicated fans, while TB's design would work great as a design for expanded lore, like the Warmother comic. There's reasons such as disconnect from the current iteration, but first and foremost I think that Ashe as the ideal of the Avarosan tribe feels like this is what she would be in the future//after she has succeeded in uniting the Freljord under a unified banner of solidarity abd mutual aid. Where she can focus more on the mother and less on the war.
i love love love love that you guys decided to create a plus sized version of ashe, and i think her final design is absolutely incredible. she looks like such a patron of hope, of love and comfort. and she *looks* like she is a native of the area she’s from. i absolutely ADORE applecork’s version as well, especially how he designed the outfit, but to see a plus size character be seen as something so wonderful and meaningful and a leader is … well it warms my awful little heart. FANTASTIC work you guys. i don’t play league at all but i’m so invested in this mini series you have! would love to see more like this + the janna videos in the future if you like doing them :>
You're right but also Ashe is after all squishy ADC in League, Riot was recently talking about their characters silhouetthe and if you look at other marksmans, they are all either skinny like Samira and Ezreal or small like Twitch and Kog'Maw.
@@arc9171 You could chose better champs for that like Lee Sin. Size is not only thing that matters in character's silhouette, Poppy have a lot of armor and big hammer which indicates that Poppy is tanky, and her small size connected with armor indicates that she might do something unexpected like dash at you, stun you during your dash or yeet you across the map.
Man freljord champions are built different. Braum, Tryndamere, Gargas run around topples, Olaf and Udyr are sleeveless and there is Ashe. Sejuani is the only properly clothed.
Giving Ashe a big body makes her a lot more interesting and distinctive, yes, but she is a squishy adc. She gets one shot. Giving her a fuller figure may make her look like a tank. It seems like Skyen and the artist didn't consider the gameplay, which isn't a problem with the redesigns, i just wanted to point it out. I wish we had different body types in league though. Edit: Dang i sound like an asshole. I didn't mean to be rude, my English is questionable at best, i'm sorry :'(
Correct, she's more meant to be the slender, agile character, one you'd expect to do back-flips and shoot arrows at the same time. I think the a "little more muscular Ashe" approach like Apple Cork did works greatly since on the scale we see the game from, it won't make her too bulky looking. Regardless both designs look great, and even as someone who doesn't care much for lore or the such, I prefer them over the current Ashe. She looks more interesting, and depending of which, more badass, which is always a plus in my book.
@@justanotherLunny Yeah i don't understand why the only appeal a female champion can have is being pretty. I like Illaoi because she has an interesting philosophy and a total badass. I like Taliyah because she represents younger people becoming more aware of the issues with the systems in place and fight to make the world a better place. I love Annie because she is cute and she must be protected after everything she went through. I like Senna not because she is attractive but because she is genuienly heroic after all the crap she went through. I wish Riot explored more ways of making a character appealing.
i was gona complain that 2 days preview is to long but by the peeps commenting i'm gathering patrons get stuff early? and now i just think it's good advertising
First off, I want to say that I absolutely love the idea that you're going for here. Making sure that a character design really aligns with the character identity is super important. All things being equal I thought I'd through in my subjective thoughts. I find myself liking Apple Corks version better for three reasons I think. The first might be considered a criticism of the other connotations of the plus size of the second Ashe. It's hard to put my finger on, but if her people are struggling to feed themselves, a leader who looks like she has indulged too much, and potentially at the expense of her people, can read very poorly. I admit this is very subjective and I am sure I explained that badly but it's more of a feeling than a thought. While it would be cool if these characters could exist purely in the lore they are also game characters, and game characters need to communicate what they do in the game as well. The first being Ashe does this very well. Archers have a history of being light and fist in games, which the design preserves, but also gives her a bearing, strength, and confidence that also plays into her being a warrior. She isn't stick thin, she looks strong and capable, but she still looks like a ranged archer, which I think is important. Lastly is appeal, which I think the first design just nails. In animation a core principle is appeal, and a large part of that is incorporated into the design, not just the movement. The first design jumps out at me and says "I am strong, I am confident, I can lead" and pretty much just looks cool. The second says "I am warm, I am soft, I am safe" which may work in the lore, but as a character in a game where you are fighting literal dragon gods, I do not find a character that says "I am warm, soft, and safe" to be all that appealing. Totally do not want this to come across as a criticism, but an explanation as to why I solidly prefer the first design, especially in the context of a game. Edit: I was reading some other comments and people have been talking about the first design is good for where she is NOW, while the second design would be best for when her dream has been realized, and that does a lot to solve my issues with her looking a little over indulgent for a queen of a struggling people.
I would lean to an middle ground between your ideas, because I think ash would suffer and fight before becoming the “mother”, so the softness and lack of scars I think that undermine the “war” on “war mother” But I loved both.
After a day of thought, Applecork's version looks like an adc, while Skyen's looks closer to an artillery character, which in itself is something I think LoL doesn't have, an ad artillery champion.
I do have to say I particularly like the C1 "ideation" since the skirtplates almost look a bit Sami in origin while also having the quite stocky build typical of northern indigenous people.
A little late to be commenting, but I absolutely love the idea of Skyens design and leaning the kit even further into a ranged tank support with a focus on vision control and ranged CC by keeping the w and e pretty much the same while maybe changing up the q to a possible close range heal
The only criticism against Skyen's design is that Ashe in game is a squishy, so making her plus size can make players confused if she is a tank or a marksman. Nevertheless I think it's creative and unique, thumbs up. :D
I love that, between League of Legends champion animations and Legends of Runeterra card art and emotes, there’s just so much that you can literally find an image or animation to illustrate anything you’re saying.
I love the idea of a rounder Ashe. It embodies Ashe's idea of peace, nuture and idealism perfectly. I would, however, dial it back just a tad bid. A plus size that's noticeably plump, but a bit more athletic...the true definition of T H I C C.
fantastic video! both you and applecork did wonderful work incorporating the different themes of ashe's lore into her design, and im in love with the way your design sensibilities fork in considering what theme to follow, wonderful job!
I ADORE both of these designs, and hearing the discussions on their designs genuinely made me so happy, and was very interesting. I kind of wonder about gameplay readability too - I think both design ideas could be worked into a model that conveys her role in gameplay, while maintaining the interesting aspects of these. Also! As someone who's read, like, all of the lore, your descriptions still help me understand then wayyy better - I have individual stories I reaaaally like, such as Roots of a Poisoned Tree and The Echoes Left Behind, but I kinda struggled to piece everything together. I had never thought of Lissandra's efforts as a censorship campaign, and I never thought of how that related to Ashe herself, or really thought about the fashy/conservative undertones with Volibear, or thought about the whole... nearly socialist element of the avarosans I was missing so much, and gradually your views on the lore, and rereading by myself, really made things even more interesting to me, and made me realise so many other things about the stories and overall world. I'm also just now remembering how much I genuinely loved and gushed over your ideas for Seraphine lore :) And lastly!! My godddd, that webcomic has a kind of aesthetic that I LOVE, but don't know how to describe but I want to find more like it??
Quite honestly my favorite video of yours to date. Well rounded and one the most articulate scripts I've ever heard. I'd love to see more videos like this.
Skyen the production value was through the roof on this video. The music the delivery of both the artists thoughts and your own. Brilliant video and by far my favorite one in your catalogue. Both designs are wonderful, Ashe is one of my favorite characters to play in League of Legends and either design would do the character justice if implemented in the game.
That was really cool. I get that this obviously took a long time to make, but if you think you have time for it, I would love more of this type of content.
Damn, Apple_Cork is absolutely KILLING it. That is some amazing art. You defnitly made a right decition comissioning them for this. gj Skyen ^-^ Out of all the design iterations at 23:09, the one top and center really stood out to me. Now, I'm not nearly as good as you when it comes to criticising or trying to express my reasoning, but I'll try to explain why I like that one so much. Now, the body type is a bit hard tell because of the clothing, but she doesn't look skinny by any means. Her face looks round and soft which gives the impression she's nice and maybe caring, which fits her theme as a contrast to Sejuani and Lissandra quite nicely. However it doesn't go into the mother aspect of the "Warmother" title quite as extreme as your final design, and instead, to me at least, makes her look much more like an actually capable warrior (archer). This particular design defnitly looks like she could have the muscle of an archer under that clothing. This way it already mixes both the motherly and the warring aspects of her character really well in my opinion, making her seem friendly and yet capable of fighting if she needs to, at the same time. But, and this is the reason it stood out to me so much, it also makes her look like a leader. Reason for this is probably the (i don't know what to call it) wide band of cloth/leather and for around her shoulders, which makes them look broader, and, as can be seen on a lot of demacian designs, make a character look more heroic and inspiring, which also fits Ashe really well. Obviously I would have loved to see that one as a full render by Apple_Cork aswell, but since that's not gonna happen, I guess I have to try and make it myself (with my quite limited skills) Thank you for the video Skyen, it was a pleasure to watch :)
This was design, represented with more detail in B1 just before narrowing in on the two finalists, was definitely my favorite. I believe that if we got three final designs instead of two, this one would by far be everyone's preference. I blends the motherly and warrior aspects of Ashe so well, I'm surprised it didn't make the final cut.
I actually like both, but I feel like the more warrior focused design is better for the game and for the current point of her story. Skyen's design I think works best as a version of Ashe later in her life when she's managed to make some real headway in changing the Freljord.
I don't think Ashe should be chunky though, especially considering she's a warrior using her physical strength and dexterity to fight. I really love the idea of her embodying the Avarosan values in your design, but it just doesn't seen like she'd be a skilled archer and warrior.
This was a really interesting video to watch: I loved the ideas presented in the design ideation phase, and seeing both Ashe with an emphasis on her facet as a warrior and as a motherly figure was something I enjoyed. I personally found myself quite drawn to the B3 and C2 ideas -- I felt they had a lot to tell, and gave me an impression of a character who is both strong to fight and strong to protect. It's nice seeing so many ideas coming together this way and if you do more content like so in the future, I'll absolutely be watching it! Congratulations on the fantastic work both from you and Applecork.
I feel that Sky's design would be able to convey the "war" of warmother by just giving her the bow and a confident, head high, stance, walking as if she's leading a march for her tribe.
This is neat; I hope it becomes a series. The idea of plenty is not something I would thought about for Ashe/Avarosa, but it seems obvious in hindsight. I do prefer Applecork's picks, though, as, from a gameplay perspective, the fuller form communicates a tankier role on the battlefield
I really appreciate both design, and while TB's wouldn't work that much in the game imho (silhouette, role shape language and other stuff), I think it can exist alongside AC's as a future version of Ashe, older and maybe having achieved a kingdom where she doesn't need to take arms as much as in her young days (not that a larger person can't be a competent warrior, I've seen people irl with that bodytype be more agile, because familiar with their own balance, than people who are on the slim side of things ; just that walking across the tundra and mountains in full war attire will eat a good portion of your body fat).
I really hope you continue this series! I think a good way to keep them yt vids coming is at the start, you use the very short intro sneak peak to the video to intrigue viewers, then right after create some sorta generalised short pre-video talk or script ( idk if preamble means the same thing) about your intentions with the redesign that's at MAX 1 minute long and one that you can reuse on other videos of the series. This way, it's only a minute long and doesn't take up much time and conveys your actual intentions of what your goals of the video are, while the intrigue of the short intro keeps people excited for the video itself. As while i personally don't mind, the long 4 minute preamble can be a bit of a factor that turns people away
This is the kind of content i LOVE. I think both redisigns are awesome but i prefere the1st one (or something in between) cause the 2nd looks too diferent from the original Ashe. Like a whole new character. Anyway I think LoL needs a chubby fem character or a really old woman (Lissandra, Camille and Le Blanc it doenst count. Their skin never gets old or something XD) We deserve more characters like Illaoi and Taliyah.
Yeah. Thats what I was thinking. When I saw the second one I thought about a the seal mother (but I want this to be a monster instead if they ever release her) or how I thought Illaoi was (before reading her proper lore since at that time I just knew about her because she appeared in the harrowing story).
These are both amazing and they look like a real progression from the starved founder of the Avarosa to the queen of plenty that shes meant to represent
Having a Curvy/chubby Ashe would even still make sense with her current gameplay. She's an inmobile adc, doesn't have any escapes and half of her abilities are global, so having her not being able to do weird gymnastics or dashes to move around, and having a long-range scouting gameplay makes a lot of sence. Even her slows are more about "kiting by making enemies slower" than "me running faster". It just makes so much sense really.
I'm most drawn to the C and D rows from what's shown at 23:29 just because it's what embodies the motherly aspect that the Avarosans have better than the others from my experience. It doesn't scream war, but it does scream that there's a warm meal and a place for everyone. Good redesigns and I like the idea of doing this
I mean, anyone who looks at your twitter knows you have no problem with sexuality. But jokes aside, this is a really fascinating video. I love how constructive it is and thank you for introducing me to this artist! He's really good!
I looooove the longer, elegant iterations of her dress!! Very much reminiscent, at least to me, of folk dresses and fashion of places such as Norway. I think it helps to draw on culture and heritage to connect her solidly to the Freljord. Both designs were just so gorgeous!!!!
I study character design and arts for a long while and character designing for my own characters has always been very complicated for me, it's something I've always struggled with and I seem to never be satisfied with the designs I come up with for my characters, always going back on design choices and making changes, never having a complete version of a character I've drawn hundreds of times. Today I was a little bored and saw this upload, and usually I don't really have the time to watch 40 minutes of redesign or anything in the sort due to personal responsibility, but today I gave it a shot as I had nothing to do. When we got to the character designing part, it unironically taught me somethings that I have just not seen or needed for a long time. Seeing the process of creating a character in this video was fascinating, I just started taking notes. So hey, I don't know if Skyen will ever read this comment but I wanted to thank you for this video! It was surprisingly educational! Thanks!
I'm incredibly flattered that our work helped spark something in you :) I go back and re-design my characters constantly, so you're not alone lol Glad you enjoyed the video!
I liked both designs. Both Skyen and Apple_cord bring up good ideas and both tell interesting stories. Personally I like the warrior idea more, because when I think about life-long archer, I think back to my old archery coach who was jacked as hell. But at the same time, Skyen designs strikes a very familiar cord, that I also really like. When I think leader of a farmer community, I don't think of skinny, slightly tone and evenly tanned super models shown in media. I think of the muscular and chubby bodies of my family and the families around me. I grew up in a rural farming community and a lot of Farmer's have the body type described by Skyen. They may be chubby and curvy but they are also muscular and strong. You can't work in a harsh landscape without have some muscle and some fat on your bones. Either way, I loved the video Skyen and I loved the artwork shown in the video. Hope you can do more of these soon, I really enjoyed it.
I loved the video, I am not sure about making Ashe plus size, the archer archetype suggest swiftness of movement and speed.But I would love to see riot making a plus sized female character. I agree that most of female league champions are "sexy". Illaoi, Jinx and Kalista have very different bodytypes to all other league characters but we need a chubby female character.
I mean, Ashe has no mobility in game whatsoever, but also... idk I think a game with a space dragon can probably have a fast fat lady and not break all suspension of disbelief
@@TBSkyen Yeah you got a point by saying a fat character can be fast on a fantasy World, but when you create a character that is supossed to be a certain way you might wanna follow, following the lore (as far as I know) I might see ashe thicc like mei! As a big girl I would love to see more body types but I don't think ashe is a good candidate :(
very nice perspective, love people sharing completely new ideas. cool to see this version aswell. and also nice partner promotion man, ppl do really deserve this sort of credit, amazing job both of you.
I cannot stress enough how much I liked this video. I love how you explained everything that could be explained about your thought process, I love how you decided to show two possible concepts and be aware of their respective tradeoffs. And holy fuck Applecork's drawing is *chef's kiss* Please please please please please make more videos like this. I love League's characters and I love to see their designs get better this way.
Even tho I love your design and I wish we could get something like that in the game, I feel like she would look too tanky, adcs should look fragile and easy to kill. I feel like the body type and the cape would not be easy to read in a team fight. Something in between both designs, muscular and big, but not so round, would be great. My friend (ricardo soto, he is an archer yall should look him up! He has represented the country a bunch of times uwu) is big, his arm and back muscles are real big but he is also soft, and when I think about ashe I think about him.
So, I would say it is not hard to see why the idea of a "plus size" character Model was chosen, there is no representation of those in the game, so it needs to be done at one point. despite this I would prefer the Slimer redesign, since it shows of the harsh life in the Freljord and her past. There is need of Plus sized Characters, but in my Opinion this would not fit for Ash. When I think about it who would be fitting as a plus sized female Character I think of Miss Fortune and maybe Karma. Ash is a Archer and a protector of her people, so she is muscular. Also I really like the changes in the face. The Design made by Apple Cork just seems more fitting to the me, regarding the current state/role of Ash (in Game and in Lore) Your Design instead seemed to me for a alternative Version of Ash. More of a Mother role, a symbole of the wealth and the "easyness" of a life, build upon working together. In that regard I really like it, But it doesn't work, in my opinon with her life, before all of that. Your Ash seems like less of a physical fighter to me, but more spiritual or atleast commanding from behind the Frontlines in times of need, which is definitly not bad! I like it, but it does not work that well as a simple redesign of the Champion, but more as a Overhaul, atleast in my Mind. I apologize for my butchered english :D Also, Thank you for putting that much Work into this! I can only Imagine how long the Design process took.
Personally, I don't think a design of a leader and protector should necessary be buff or muscular. If you think about Ashe being more of a political figure who has to make decisions, showing incredible feats of physical strength isn't necessary for her, her qualities of a leader, strong will and morals are
@@MissSam that would work better if she wasnt also supposed to be a fighter, which despite her anti-war stance, she is still an archer/fighter. Youd get some weird disonance between game and lore with Skyens and even though I dont like current ashe at all, there is atleast better connection with the magical bow wielding archer that you get as a player.
MF is a pirate, they were eating so little nutricious things during thier time in the sea that they sufferd illness from it, how would she be +size with such a lifestyle? Btw, LoL has Gragas
@@Vizible21 Not as the like "dnd" representation of a "fighter" sure, but the rounder shape gives a sense of opulence, especially with all that gold, she ends up looking more like a dwarven merchant or a noble than someone lives in a harsh climate struggling to look after her people. Ashe has never had much of her story defined in her design outside of ice bow, but what little intimate story she has, shows her trudging through snow living a tough life, which the 'mother' aspect doesn't really fit. Most 'motherly' characters who end up subjected to that lifestyle (including her own mother) don't tend to look that way because they don't have the means to live life all 'comfy and warm' or be that kind of person, which is what Ashe's story is, her fighting against the same lifestyle of her people and mother but realizing she can't do away with it altogether, so it should still be a part of her. Honestly it seems more like you just don't care about the story all that much, which is perfectly fine, but it's a discussion about the lore and narrative, you don't have to seek 'validation' from anything, but you can make an effort to make an effort to have a better variety and more interesting characters and stories.
I personally agree with Applecork's design philosophy of trying to keep original design aspects as homage. As much as I like the second design, I think after being in the game for over 10 years, it would be better to remain on the side of conservatism. I also think that it puts her more in line with the other ADCs, as with the exception of Kog'Maw they all have a smaller and relatively thinner design. I personally think that body type is an important signifier of the ADC role
I agree with ashe having a radically different body from her counterparts helps match her radically different personality and ideology. Not much commentary from me since you already said basically everything I think about the design, so kudos from me.
One of my new favorite video essays! Thank you Skyen! Seeing you talk about your framework for character design followed up by putting that framework into practice, beautiful.
Applecorks design sings to me more because I see it as a defender, a warrior. I like your idea but it felt more like you were tired of beauty queens and said “make her plus size cuz no one does that” all of the explanations feel like weak justifications that don’t fit the character as it stands. Ashe as a leader would need to be able to move quickly in an unforgiving terrain to stand by her people when battles did happen. They’re both nice but applecork embodies a more marketable and realistic version of what Ashe is. No hate though, just my thoughts and both look amazing.
Great designs. For some constructive criticism I would like to comment on is a missed opportunity in the 1st design. Giving Ashe a bracer on her left arm instead of adding the brown on her right. It's an archery tool so it leans into the warrior aspect, and it gives a perfect excuse to add more brown as desired. The current arm guard feels like it's on the wrong side (outside instead of inside) and I personally worry it could get in the way of a bowstring.
You can find Applecork’s art from this video and more in the links below:
Website: www.ainsworth-lin.com/
ArtStation: www.artstation.com/artwork/ykezg9
Instagram: instagram.com/apple_cork/?hl=en
EDIT: Not for nothin', but if you're fine with space dragons, talking bear gods and Egyptian god furries, but you're coming into my comments like "a fat woman being a good archer is nOT rEaLiSTIc!!!!" then you really need to check your head.
My headcanon now is that Apple Corc's version is current ashe and yours is her in the future, since as of now, she's a leader, but not a mother, her people still struggle to get by, and she is not one to live in extravagance (getting more than her peers).
Plus-sized Ashe seems more motherly and nurturing, really what her character is all about, plus the muscle and fat is necessary for a frozen tundra, I cannot agree more !
Someone pointed out in the livestream that making ashe big or plump might miscommunicate her playstyle, as in game she is supposed to be very fragile. It looks like this design would be better suited for a tank
@@fireguardianx when I heard Skyen talk about his design I thought the same thing,Ashe in the Future where she created the frelijord of her dream would look just like that.
Good job Tbskyen,I really liked this video and your design of Ashe made me really happy.
I don't prefer bigger body types, and/but/although I don't have much experience nor skill drawing I really want to make my own design and show the nurture side of the ideal differently. Maybe incorporate a gift a child would give, or a different "softer" relaxed pose. Also I would def add a reminder that she is willing to defend her people first and foremost(idk if its correct) by actually making the bow part of her design to add to the silhouette. I also thought about making the human touch to her to make her more 'civil' and calm(because sejuani is savage and lissandra is stiff af), a necklace, make her boots thicker(cuz snow), add a small sidebag/pouch(maybe even a bigger bag, at least I know I go everywhere with one of these even when Im not intending to carry anything, but if we talking rural then having some of the most handy and small tools with you can't hurt that much).
AND I DON'T want to believe I am proposing this but... cut her hair short or put it in a bun and have her hood down. Wouldn't it get in the way of literally everything?
Honestly, Apple Cork's and Tbskyen's designs look like the same character at different points in her life. The former is Ashe when she was in her prime and constantly having to fight. While the latter is Ashe when she's older, stepped away from fighting to govern more, and maybe even having succeeded in some of her goals.
Yeah I definitely like skyens concept was more along the lines of a diplomat and not an archer
Yeah both designs are quite inspired. I could even see both being their own characters-- one a mentor for the other providing guidance and wisdom, etc.
Now that's something I'd like to see. An elderly ADC seems like a really interesting character idea
yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking, kind of a cool coincidence!
The secound one looks like a Big Boss or Leader somewhere
A side effect of making Ashe bigger, especially with her white hair, is that it makes her look older. While this definitely emphasizes the 'mother' aspect, it does take away from the young idealist that she represents.
I don't really like that in this design she's bigger. Freljordians have to constantly fight for everything, and so food is quite rare there. Ashe being bigger in the freljordian context means she's greedy and taking the food of her tribe, which is the opposite of what she is. There's also a problem with the gamemplay and this design. Look how every squishy character is small and skinny while tanks are big and beefy. Making a squishy character big would just confuse everyone, as we all already know the codes of designs and what they mean. I would agree that this body type would work for Sejuani but not Ashe, who's supposed to be agile and a scouter in the lore.
@@lcdc_azuralie I believe that the thematic intentions behind that design were to emphasize that Ashe is not really a fighter, so much as she is an idealized mother to her people who rejects violence and seeks solely to unify the freljord. However, I agree with you that the design doesn't really work in practice because even if Ashe is trying to avoid combat, she's still a powerful, capable warrior and when you've got forces like Sejuani and Lissandra running amok and deliberately inciting conflict, not fighting just isn't an option.
Making Ashe plus sized makes her seem lazy or overly soft, in this context because even if she tries to avoid it, she knows that conflict is in her and her peoples' future and would know to be prepared for it.
@@lcdc_azuralie ....Braum is Freljordian. Being small and dainty is not the only possibility
@@stardustorchard9316 Well anyone would be if they were able to do what he does, he is based at least partially off old strongmen form the early 20th century, also he is constantly carrying a giant 3-inch thick solid metal door like its nothing. another thing is that while Braum looks really big he's not fat by any means he looks like a bodybuilder.
@@stardustorchard9316 Braum is muscular, not ''fat''. He's holding onto a big ass door every single day, so he can be muscular, but being fat in freljord isn't possible unless you're taking all the food for yourself and being greedy, which is the opposite of Ashe
Tbh i like more the warrior aesthetic that applecork chose, not oversexualizing the character and giving her some armor
Even if the's supposed to challenge freljord's brutal nature, she needs at least something to protect herself both from the winter and the winter's claw
I always felt that Ashe with her troubles lived through her physical prowess at day to day basis. I never *saw* anyone of wider body who also spends every day working physically. Put some fat in bodies like B3? for me it would be ok, but the whole D group doesn't seem to me like 'Ashe' I would recognize.
I agree, but even if they were to keep her current model making her "bigger" with armor and fur, it would send the same message. Something sort of like what Sej has.
@@Kazuhiro-i She DOES fight tho, just because it's not her go to doesn't mean she isn't ready to throw down at the drop of a hat
I agree. And his point on her needing to have a more solid build and muscles is really good. People underestimate the sheer amount of upper body strength it requires to weild a bow and arrow day in and day out.
And still being an homage to her current looks. It's probably better to not change her too drastically for the people who like her the way she is. And y'know it's a video game.
Personally, I think Applecork's design is much more fitting for Ashe. I'm all for having more varied body types for female champions in the game and I actually do really like TB's design in general, but I don't think it really fits Ashe herself.
I loved this, especially hearing the thought process behind it!
I personally think Applecork's design fits a lot better for *current* Ashe, specifically because she *doesn't* fit the Avarosan ideal yet. She's still young, stressed, and in the process of trying to make her vision a reality. I also immediately recognise her as "Ashe", as if someone just took the blank design of OG Ashe and added character she's supposed to have.
I can definitely see an older version of the war-MOTHER design being *future* Ashe - Ashe at the height of her power, depicting and displaying the Avarosan ideals fully.
Ah yes, I couldn’t put it to words why I preferred Applecork’s design. I do really like the ideas behind Warmother Ashe though, it really fits a future version of Ashe.
for sure yeah, Applecork did an absolutely amazing job.
Their one embodies 'defiant optimism', which is much more appealing to me (and consistent with the Avarosans) than the 'fresh-faced optimism' I interpret from current Ashe.
Those face scars are so hot, amazing what just a few of them can accomplish.
I really appreciate redesigns that build on top of an existing character.
For instance, Ashe looked great in the Legends Never Die video; some people might dislike that being retconned/somewhat invalidated with a rework that departs too far from the original design.
i prefer the first, but love the ideas of the second. i think a 30 yr old, middle version would help bridge the gap as the first design is basically just ashe as she is now. but the warMOTHER is going a bit too far, both for the game and in lore.
Holy shit, I love this
that warmother ashe design would make for a decent skin though.
The H. version of Ashe’s face seemed really unique, feminine but strong at the same time which fits her character pretty nice in my opinion.
Yeah, it's great. Perhaps a lil' too cold though.
I thinks the H is..... er.... too Camille
Not to impose my thought but H seems too harsh and "boss-lady" face and a bit old. H reminds of runeterra's cards like Tianna Crownguard (Garen and Lux's mother) and Scarmother Vrynna (Possibly Sejuani's mother and former leader of the Winter's Claw). I love both those ladies/mother figures but i don't think they are the right kind of harsh and fierce you want for people in need.
@@johnbuster4268 I thought the same
@@Oscar97o Yeah my bad. I was too bored to just google it her and Vrynna and see i was wrong. Like it wouldn't have taken more than 2 minutes!
skyen actually just designed young-grandma ashe
I bet she give warm hugs and make delicious cookies/poritos
my thoughts, exactly. I thought his version doesn't necessarily fit her story as of now, but could easily be her in like 10-30 years
@@Rexog90 baking nice poro snacks
@@Rexog90 better yet, meats for days
it's like having an grandma that owns a steak house.
Honestly she radiates loving mother energy mortgage radiates Queen of the freljord energy
As much as I like the motherly approach, I feel that giving her a fuller figure makes her look more like a brawler or tank than a marksman
Well yes but would be fun to play a cute meatball that shots arrows, lol.
A bow asks a lot of strength to be used though, much like a powerful gun will ask you to have a solid stance to take the recoil. Maintaining the bow drawn, to aim decently, takes its toll on muscles.
@@commentateur-connaisseur-c1414 in real life - yes. but we're talking about visual language in games here, which rarely has anything to do with real life. when designing a character for a game you need to first think how their appearance translates to their role. if a character is supposed to be tanky it must look bulky and big so that at a first glance (even if you're not familiar with that character) you know exactly what type of opponent you're facing. so if an archer's supposed to be fragile and easy to kill you MUST make them look like they're easy to kill
Definitely agree, this should've been addressed in the design. The 'fuller figure' should just be a regular size 12, which would still suggest plenty to me, along with the cape design of the other warrior ash (to reduce the visual weight of the model) IMO
@@commentateur-connaisseur-c1414 she would be more muscular, yes, like the artist's design. He did admitted that the warrior aspect of her is removed in his design
Skyen: "there are no perfect designs"
Me: "i agree"
*jihn exists
Me: "There are almost no perfect designs"
i'd upvote, but your are at 4 likes...
You say that, and i raise to you Jinx and Fiddlesticks
if this comment doesn't reach 4444 likes someday, I'm sacrificing my new born to the all mighty teemo
*4th shot is fired*
@@ildathet a man of culture i see
I like apple_cork's design for a present Ashe, the one we get to play as in the game. She has to be physically capable to defend her tribe, so her looking jacked fits. But i also Skyen's Ashe, as what she would look like the future, when she achieves her peaceful goals and get older.
TBs version looks more loke a Witch then a bowman
She's an archer though, all she really needs is some muscle but she doesn't need to be thin or particularly athletic to shoot arrows. In game, her character is about low mobility balanced out by inflicting slows. Theres no aspect to her gameplay that signifies needing to be physically fit in the same way that say, Samira needs to be. You can be a warrior and not be slim, moreso I think her current character design does her the biggest disservice due to the lack of any muscularity
agreed, TB's Ashe would be an awesome npc in the League MMO if it were set several years forward for instance.
imagine matronly Ashe, grandpa Tryndamere and badass Nunu in the same room, that would be so dope
Honestly I think that Skyen's Ashe looks exactly like how Ashe plays in game. She's strong enough to shoot, and it's obvious at a glance that this character is unlikely to be tumbling around or leaping into the air. She suits the playstyle of Ashe more than in game Ashe does.
@@lucad9667 I assume by bending her arms what you actually mean is, assuming she has the strength to draw the bow fully, would her chest area disrupt the shot? To which, speaking for plus sized bowmen of the male variety, the answer is no. So don't worry about that.
Also what long skirt? Aside from Queen Ashe her skirts are always short as heck. That being said I do like Queen Ashe.
I love the idea of Ashe having a wide, strong back. Not just because of how being an archer should logically affect her physicality, but also because, a warrior queen whose philosophy is all about the protection of her community, it speaks to me how inspiring she needs to be able to look from behind. She puts herself on the front lines. Her people are behind her. Her back is what they see when they look to her. I love the idea of those who depend on her seeing her back and feeling the safety of an insurmountable wall between them and a coming conflict.
I feel like both designs can exist in the same universe, apple's design fits really well for today's ashe because she's starting this whole cooperation thing, then years go by and Ashe is successfull and everyone is happy and united, she can embody the ideals of the avarosans better, so skyen's design fits perfectly
This exactly what i thought. Skyens desing seems like something that would happen to ashe over time and apples is what she would start out as.
I had the same thought
My thoughts exactly!
Exactly the same vibe I got!
Based and pogpilled, one thing that actually wasn’t really referenced was that a bit extra body fat is also more useful to someone living in a cold climate, especially someone fighting in a cold climate.
I like that you guys went for "War" theme and a "Mother" (as in caretaker, queen) theme which by itself already is a leap forward in making her reflect ANY part of her concept on paper.
The “Warrior Ashe” looks ideal for her current moment, having to defend her ideals... but also living in a conflict ridden moment of her history, while the “Mother Ashe” looks like how she would be 10-15 years down the line, after overcoming gnawing hunger and strife for years, having left the frontline of conflict to the next generation, and strode further in her phylosophical path, as a counselor and respectable figure for all, both subject and stranger, after her path had been proven to be right all along.
Really loved the video, Ashe was my 1st main ever, and i’d really like her visuals to have much more “character” than “pretty bow bikini lady”.
Thanks for the video❤️
I'm in love with applecorks redesign. It's now my head cannon that she looks like applecorcks eteration in the present and like skyens in the future when she is a bit older and has somewhat come closer to peace in the flerjord.
I like how your Ashe also contrasts Tryndamere in a way, him being a buff scary tower of a man, representing strength and brutality of past Freljord, and her being a vision of future Freljord, healthy, calm and nurturing. Loved the vid!
that reminded me of Merida's parents from Brave
That seems like such an adorable duo
@@meneither3834 what's wrong with that? xD
I love both of these but I’ll go with Applecork’s as my favorite. As much as I love Chubby Momma Ashe, the scarcity inherent in the Freljord setting (at least currently) it leads my thoughts to “the rich feasting while the poor starve” instead of the Avarosan ideals of sharing the wealth around. That being said, in a less cutthroat world I’d absolutely want her to be my WarmMother. ❤️
I agree I also like the 2nd one but also feel it sacrifices the Archer feel, Ash in game I ment to be squishy Archer but mother Ash looks like a tank
Yeah, that's exactly where my head went as well
She’s called Ashe because she was meant to be in a fire kingdom with that outfit.
@@Kazuhiro-i which she got from all the ash that stuck to her hair whenever she’s in the fire kingdom
White hair was smoke
@@Kazuhiro-i it's actually because the CEOs (Tryndamere) wife's name is Ashe.
@@TheVideolover45 ashely
@@hulyan8944 Look at me ! Not him
Please do Janna next. She has so much potential.
An ancient goddess praised by sailors, whose cult has been forgotten, then re-discovered and updated to fit the polluted state of Zaun, it's just amazing.
And she looks like a model from an underwear magazine cover...
Good news! It's here!
I mean to be fair that’s a pretty common goddess design on our world to, she’s wearing more than a lot of renascence paintings.
@@thomascochran7907 to be fair there is a big difference between nudity and underwear, nudity or very minor skimpy but elglant accessories can be used to show an unearthly beauty, this not a human but much more, they are litterally too godlike and majestic to be covered up by mere clothes, etc. Janna is wearing simple unnapealing underwear for no apparent reason, tbh it would be a much better character design to just make her naked, though obviously that wouldnt work for a video game and also would be very much a cop out.
@@warcheddar4163 I mean that could be a explanation to why the gods are naked, or it could be reaching or making excuses. Making other characters more stand out and less reliant on sex appeal might be a god idea, but Janna’s level of sex appeal matches her character and lore pretty well.
@@thomascochran7907 Making Janna have lots of sex appeal could definlty work as a character design, similar to evelyn in a way, the thing is is that Janna's constume isnt that sexy, the underwear she is wearing look very odd and plain, so its more a problem of they tried to make her sexy but she just really isnt
the second male sexuality was a possible argument, *TB WENT TURBO MODE AND I LOVE IT*
I think I missed this part, could you kindly timestamp it?
@@josefinehansen6096 19:30
You can only repeat something so many times before you get frustrated lol
@@Chowder_T I completely agree with everything Skyen says on sexuality and design, also this part about males being sexy - I also love his "rants" on Ashe, Kaisa and Evelynn, Ahri, and likewise Sett and also the not-so-well-done male sexy characters. I just misread or misinterpreted Capivara's first post, so I didn't know was they were refering to.
capybara
Wow, that's some high-quality content. Loved the video. It was really nice to see two completed concepts with different goals and hearing the thought process behind each. Apple Cork killed it on the art, too.
I feel like your design is better suited for Ashe after she establishes peace, while Applecork's is a greater representation for a fighting Ashe. Anyways great video dude
I have never been interested in league of legends, heck I’ve never been interested in playing games all together. But as an aspiring character designer watching your videos just really pumps me up for drawing , whether your hyping a design up or calming explaining why it doesn’t work it really helps me look at my own designs and think about them more
I like both Ashes, but for different reasons. Applecork's Ashe is perfect, it's the same champion that we know from the very beginning, but it has been adapted to today's realities and tells perfectly about her role in the world and her problems -
as a young leader struggling with a harsh climate, war and the burden of leading "weak" people, etc. Your version, on the other hand, looks like it comes from a 20-year-old timeskip - when she doesn't have to keep fighting anymore because she achieved her goals, she managed to unite the Freljord, built a couple of new cities, improved the well-being of her people, developed agriculture and animal husbandry,
began to enter into trade agreements with external countries, etc. - which is perfect, and "current Ashe" definitely dreams of this fate. In my opinion, both versions are amazing, because they can represent Ashe's development over the years and outline her character depending on the historical realities in the Freljord.
well said
This is just... gosh, so cool. I love the thought you've put into every element of the designs. Both are amazing, but the second one- one which actually would take a body that looks like mine, and use it as a symbol of a powerful and caring warrior and leader- is just very cool. Thank you so much!
I want to start by saying that I'm a big fan of both of these designs. As you said, each one represents one side of her character and I think they do so very well. Also, wow this is a high effort video. Those characters look like they could be slotted into the game as is and be a big step up from current Ashe, so you definitely succeeded in your goal.
One small issue I have with both is one of realism in the armour. As an archer, the bracer on her left arm should protect the inside of it from the bowstring, whereas those straps on the bracer could catch and cause more injury. Also, while a left shoulder pauldron is a common indicator that a character is warlike, it doesn't make so much sense on an archer. It limits her range of motion in that arm while giving minimal protection from the primary threat at bow range: being shot back at.
That said, as a figurehead of her tribe the symbolism is more important than practicality so it makes perfect sense for a queen and commander. And of course like you said in your pinned comment, League is not known for its hyper-realism so this is a very minor thing.
Joined Patreon to see this video early, and am very pleased with the value for my pledge. Thanks for a good vid, Skyen. I love Subjectively's series, but one thing he and the team there tends not to think about - I suspect because of their lack of experience with it, which is no shame or repudiation on them - is gameplay legibility. I think that Apple's design, which is very similar to the SixMoreVodka design from LoR, fits the needs for gameplay legibility.
Other thank Corki, who is a unique exception, and to a lesser extent Graves, marskmen are intentionally the smallest, thinnest characters for a reason. Yes, Aphelios' boyband prettiness might be a little confusing for some folks, but his slender frame accurately communicates his gameplay role and helps to emphasize his "backliner" playstyle. Other roles and playstyles also want to maintain backline presence, but the focus on physical damage - specifically through basic attacks - necessitates a character who communicates a specific physicality, what you would think of as "ranger" or "rogue" in generic fantasy terms, and even then, more the former than the latter. The latter is the design language that Riot uses to communicate the capability of assassins like Akali, Ekko, Yasuo, Yone, Master Yi, and Viego: Minimal armor, emphasis on the weapon and the lithe and nimble nature of its wielder. They communicate, visually, that they are quite mobile and that their focus is damage.
Because of her role, Ashe's body type and design are somewhat limited to match the gameplay legibility conveyed by the visual language Riot has developed. As a result, she has to be, at minimum, athletic. I personally love the new face shape, the facial scarring, and the general tilt toward "hardiness" in Apple's design. The only piece of criticism I'd offer is its tendency (as with a lot of League characters) to be overly symmetrical, especially in silhouette. League broadly relies on characters' weapons to break up their silhouette, but Ashe is especially not good with this.
I just read your comment and had similar thoughts to you. It feels like I plagiarized you now
I definetly get what you mean. Due to the running themes of visual aid Riot has to communicate characters, it doesnt leave much room for plus size marksman. I like to think of these designs though as seperate from gameplay and focus more on lore and story.
I was thinking about the body forms when watching the video and next thing I see is this comment. Gotta go fast next time. Riot recently uploaded a post about silhouhettes in game and mencioned that same idea. In there, they talk about how Senna shape is mostly intentionally overwhelmed by her big gun, which really express how Senna is a slow shooter compared to Jinx but higher caliber, similar to Caitlyn.
In this case, it is possible to give her design something more remarkable than her body to claim gameplay attention, being the most prominent her cloak. With Apple's design this idea is, maybe unintentionally, done just because her cloak takes most of her body. In Skyen is a bit harder and I do agree that, maybe an athletic body works better for her even. The idea of abundance and "War"mother is really great but sadly doesn't work on a adc. I was thinking that maybe the skinnier design or the E column might work for that concept of "Anti-Survival of the fittest". The idea of being weeks starving and then putting others above herself can contribute to the skinny body type, but of course not in a sexual way. Only problem with that is the warrior side of Ashe is going to decrease considerably.
Anyways, I love the vid. Good mid time of hours of school and have a nice day people.
Ashe's gameplay has no mobility though, theres nothing she does that would require athleticism aside from upper body strength (which a larger woman could most definitely have). None of her abilities give her a need to move. Compare that to say Akali, who is constantly jumping and dashing like of course Akali needs to be thin. Same goes for like Kalista, jumping around in part of her kit. Ashe stands there and fires arrows like she doesn't need to be a size 2, she has no mobility. The aspect I would agree with however is the correlation between size and tankiness, have a heavier ashe could be confusing because players might get the impression she is tanky when she is defs not
My biggest criticism of not either design, but if Ashe as a character, is that she sports two identities simultaneously. She doesn’t have a lane. Applecork went in the direction of more of a hard-bitten, frost archer warrior. I think this works well for Ashe for multiple reasons, mostly gameplay legibility, as you’ve mentioned. But also it communicates that the environment Ashe is in is extraordinarily unforgiving. There is very little food, and what is killed must be used in its entirety. However, this concept completely sacrifices Ashe’s aesthetic as a compassionate, caring and unifying agent of the Freiljord, (something her base design doesn’t capture in the first place, let me make that clear.), and her connection to hawks, which are symbolic of war, is also troublesome.
A character that shoots frosted arrows, lives in an unforgiving wasteland, has battle scars, has a strong connection to a war bird, and wearing any animal products whatsoever, whether for practical purposes or vanity, makes an incredibly well-saturated design for an aggressive warmonger character. It does NOT communicate that this is an agent of compassion, unity, and peace. I feel that Skyen does an... okayish job with remedying this, and straddling the line. However, the connection to hawks is still there, and it sacrifices the communication that food in the Freiljord is extremely scarce, and the tribes will sometimes have to March for days to find even one animal to gorge on, knowing they may not eat for a week. In my opinion, there is no prefect design that could embody Ashe as a character in her current iteration in the story. I would be extremely happy to be proven wrong.
The word I haven't heard before and ringed in my ears was "Hearth-bound" and by the time you went on the rough sketches and body types C1 drew all my attention along side the G face like a magnet. "WarMOTHER" as a gentle younger woman, fierce and with the weight of the world on her shoulders. Way more caring and welcoming! I can't describe how much i loved this!!!!
Chunky Ashe is Ashe in 20 years in the future
Just imagine, that the Avarosan tribe grew so much that she stop fighting after having kids, and the kids are leading the battle with Tryndamare and she focus exclusively in the manage of the tribe
Applecork is very talented these creations are absolutely incredible.
Ps definitely do more of these! I get these would take a lot longer and you have other series to focus on currently but it would be a shame to let a series like this be a one-and-done thing.
I like to think that the two re-designs are just Ashe right now in the lore and Ashe in the future, many years after she unified Frejord.
god the way you explain everything is sooo smart. I've been a character illustrator and animator for a decade and a half and I still feel like I'm learning a ton. bravo
34:25: If there's any way to make a character design reject the ideals of a warrior culture while still looking like a warrior, I'd love to hear it. That seems like quite a circle to square.
0:50: For that matter, it means you can't criticize the creations of full-time artists unless you can devote an equivalent amount of time to your own creations-and not the things you're personally _inspired_ to create, mind, just the creations you make to prove you can do it better than X.
12:50: As I said in the Braum hot-take short, it's not so much that Ashe isn't wearing Freljord clothes as it is that the clothes she isn't wearing aren't Freljordian. Which is a somewhat convoluted way of saying that Ashe's design wouldn't be nearly so bad if it matched the Freljord's aesthetic like Braum does, but I'll take convolution with a side of attempted-wit any day.
27:50: Is there a better representation of wasting design space on sexy than leaving a champion's skin a blank canvas?
37:25: While I like Skyen's design on its own-it's a lot more unique and memorable than Apple Cork's-in a gameplay contexts it suggests a tanky support character more than a quick-footed archer. I guess it's kind of odd that the anti-war tribal leader performs such a purely aggressive combat role, but it's the character's mechanical role and the design would need to reflect that.
You can still criticize creators and their work you know?
Amount of effort isn't equal to quality of product.
I will give an example.
I work at a restaurant and let say I serve you undercooked burger.
While you don't know the meat I use, the way I male the sauces, the onion, the bacon and the fact that I have to take care of other customers you still will understand where I fucked up.
You can still criticize me for serving you undercooked burger, *even* if you know what I have to do and realize where it goes wrong, even if you yourself can't replicate the same burger.
I think neither design really captures who ashe really should be - a woman as quick of foot as she is of mind, who most likely hides in combat and strikes not agressively but defensively. maybe the bushes could be integrated into her design, too, since cait's the only adc that does that even though she's from a place most likely devoid of vegetation, and it adds to the feeling of hunting, which is also part of what her tribe does for a living.
@@Oscar-j6b That's...kind of my point, yeah. I'm just pointing out another problem with the "You can't criticize X unless you do X" line of logic.
Rejecting the ideas of warrior culture mostly depends on the warrior culture you're rejecting. If that culture primarily is about strength or raw power, the character could be more of a finesse or skill based fighter. This would allow them to still be a "warrior" but reject the ideals of the warrior culture they are from.
Honestly, I wouldn't call her style of adc to be purely aggressive. She tends to play back and make more strategic calls with her ultimate and hawkfrost vision. Playing somewhat defensive in her passive. But eh.
wow AppleCork’s final design is exactly what i wanted
This..this was amazing. It genuinely makes me sad knowing that this will never be a reality. His and ESPECIALLY your design just breathed so much life into this character that I regularly dont like due to her poor and basic design just repels me. Thank you for this video :) genuinely loved it
I wonder when he'll finally do his arch nemesis: Kai'Sa
The type of bow an archer uses also has an impact on their physicality. Longbows take a lot of regular practice to use, because the muscle strain required to use them deforms the arms and back of the user over time, but are extremely effective over a long distance, even against armored opponents. If Ashe is using a longbow, her arms, shoulders, and back would be JACKED.
Give me more buff anime girl Riot
As someone who is plus size, I really enjoy the design choice you went with! Also you can be athletic AND plus size! I think that’s something that could have been personally explored a lot better. I like the idea as plus size because often in very cold environments, more weight means better resistance to the cold, and even if it’s not intentional, I still really enjoy the designs you went with. There’s only a limited amount of characters on RUclips comments and my thoughts aren’t fully collected, but oh man I do have a lot to say!
25:23 B1 is my absolute favorite she looks so powerful and royal, while still looking like she knows her way around her homeland. It gives her the “relatable but better than us” vibe which would totally justify her followers devotion to her. In my opinion obviously
Honestly, I really like the direction Apple(the artist) went. What I think would make her more unique and show more of her lore and the pain she's been through would be a scarred, blind eye. It might be too much though.
I feel like that risks going into the territory the Winter's Claw occupies, though it could also serve as a way to signify the connection between Ashe and Sejuani
You could conpensate for the bljnd eye with a stereotypical Bird helping her, like her Hawk.
That would look cool and unique but a scarred blind eye would hinder her archery! 🏹
How can u aim with no depth perception.
@@Mailliwoediv Jhin, while not an archer, has one eye covered
I have a a small nitpick about plus size, rich Ashe. I would 100% agree on the "there is plenty of everything for everyone" but because shes from the land of snow, cold and lack of food, making her obviously wealthy may read as a problematic. That's the design choice I would pick for some kind of "bad guy" someone that has power and uses it to steal resources from people who need it to survive in the snow. Cold mountains dont have much to offer, and making character that has this amount of wealth on them and is obviously well fed does not make them a motherly figure.
Kinda makes look like a Glutton in some way being as wealthy as she is, i still think she looks more like a rich mother though.
i tought the same thing! I prefer the 2nd design overall but on a muscular/thinner Ashe
@@gamesyes9352 she looks like it, or she would look like it in any other surrounding.
Amazing video, at first I didn’t agree with your idea for plus sized Ashe because of the scarcity of food in the freljord, however with her idea of there being plenty, and “if we work together we can all survive” I realized that it would be amazing for her to be plus sized.
This is my most favorite concept on yt! I use to watch subjectively and himechan, but sadly I dont know more creators who would do this. U could definitely continue with this. also the quality was just on another level
I just realised that League of Legends is basically the equivalent of taking your fanfiction OCs, changing little details about them and throwing them into an original setting.
It really is. I've seen people's lol OCs and if you put them in a lineup with that canon ones I'd have trouble telling which are which.
This was incredible! Hope you do more work along this line, time and resources permitting!
I really think that Core's design would work great in game, serving both gameplay and lore, while maintaining continuity for dedicated fans, while TB's design would work great as a design for expanded lore, like the Warmother comic. There's reasons such as disconnect from the current iteration, but first and foremost I think that Ashe as the ideal of the Avarosan tribe feels like this is what she would be in the future//after she has succeeded in uniting the Freljord under a unified banner of solidarity abd mutual aid. Where she can focus more on the mother and less on the war.
i love love love love that you guys decided to create a plus sized version of ashe, and i think her final design is absolutely incredible. she looks like such a patron of hope, of love and comfort. and she *looks* like she is a native of the area she’s from. i absolutely ADORE applecork’s version as well, especially how he designed the outfit, but to see a plus size character be seen as something so wonderful and meaningful and a leader is … well it warms my awful little heart. FANTASTIC work you guys. i don’t play league at all but i’m so invested in this mini series you have! would love to see more like this + the janna videos in the future if you like doing them :>
Bundled up Ashe is so, SO adorable
Riot's marketing and PR about plus-sized ashe: OH HELL NO!
You're right but also Ashe is after all squishy ADC in League, Riot was recently talking about their characters silhouetthe and if you look at other marksmans, they are all either skinny like Samira and Ezreal or small like Twitch and Kog'Maw.
@@briixus poppy says hi
@@arc9171 You could chose better champs for that like Lee Sin. Size is not only thing that matters in character's silhouette, Poppy have a lot of armor and big hammer which indicates that Poppy is tanky, and her small size connected with armor indicates that she might do something unexpected like dash at you, stun you during your dash or yeet you across the map.
Isnt illaoi plus sized?
@@brupts7297 Illaoi is more about muscules.
Man freljord champions are built different. Braum, Tryndamere, Gargas run around topples, Olaf and Udyr are sleeveless and there is Ashe. Sejuani is the only properly clothed.
Giving Ashe a big body makes her a lot more interesting and distinctive, yes, but she is a squishy adc. She gets one shot. Giving her a fuller figure may make her look like a tank. It seems like Skyen and the artist didn't consider the gameplay, which isn't a problem with the redesigns, i just wanted to point it out. I wish we had different body types in league though.
Edit: Dang i sound like an asshole. I didn't mean to be rude, my English is questionable at best, i'm sorry :'(
at least we have illaoi, that is how female tanks are like
Correct, she's more meant to be the slender, agile character, one you'd expect to do back-flips and shoot arrows at the same time. I think the a "little more muscular Ashe" approach like Apple Cork did works greatly since on the scale we see the game from, it won't make her too bulky looking.
Regardless both designs look great, and even as someone who doesn't care much for lore or the such, I prefer them over the current Ashe. She looks more interesting, and depending of which, more badass, which is always a plus in my book.
@@justanotherLunny Yeah i don't understand why the only appeal a female champion can have is being pretty. I like Illaoi because she has an interesting philosophy and a total badass. I like Taliyah because she represents younger people becoming more aware of the issues with the systems in place and fight to make the world a better place. I love Annie because she is cute and she must be protected after everything she went through. I like Senna not because she is attractive but because she is genuienly heroic after all the crap she went through. I wish Riot explored more ways of making a character appealing.
i was gona complain that 2 days preview is to long but by the peeps commenting i'm gathering patrons get stuff early? and now i just think it's good advertising
First off, I want to say that I absolutely love the idea that you're going for here. Making sure that a character design really aligns with the character identity is super important.
All things being equal I thought I'd through in my subjective thoughts.
I find myself liking Apple Corks version better for three reasons I think.
The first might be considered a criticism of the other connotations of the plus size of the second Ashe. It's hard to put my finger on, but if her people are struggling to feed themselves, a leader who looks like she has indulged too much, and potentially at the expense of her people, can read very poorly. I admit this is very subjective and I am sure I explained that badly but it's more of a feeling than a thought.
While it would be cool if these characters could exist purely in the lore they are also game characters, and game characters need to communicate what they do in the game as well. The first
being Ashe does this very well. Archers have a history of being light and fist in games, which the design preserves, but also gives her a bearing, strength, and confidence that also plays into her being a warrior. She isn't stick thin, she looks strong and capable, but she still looks like a ranged archer, which I think is important.
Lastly is appeal, which I think the first design just nails. In animation a core principle is appeal, and a large part of that is incorporated into the design, not just the movement. The first design jumps out at me and says "I am strong, I am confident, I can lead" and pretty much just looks cool. The second says "I am warm, I am soft, I am safe" which may work in the lore, but as a character in a game where you are fighting literal dragon gods, I do not find a character that says "I am warm, soft, and safe" to be all that appealing.
Totally do not want this to come across as a criticism, but an explanation as to why I solidly prefer the first design, especially in the context of a game.
Edit: I was reading some other comments and people have been talking about the first design is good for where she is NOW, while the second design would be best for when her dream has been realized, and that does a lot to solve my issues with her looking a little over indulgent for a queen of a struggling people.
I would lean to an middle ground between your ideas, because I think ash would suffer and fight before becoming the “mother”, so the softness and lack of scars I think that undermine the “war” on “war mother”
But I loved both.
After a day of thought, Applecork's version looks like an adc, while Skyen's looks closer to an artillery character, which in itself is something I think LoL doesn't have, an ad artillery champion.
Discovering your channel is pretty much the only good thing that's come out of RUclips shorts. Absolutely obsessed with your content, keep it up!
I do have to say I particularly like the C1 "ideation" since the skirtplates almost look a bit Sami in origin while also having the quite stocky build typical of northern indigenous people.
A little late to be commenting, but I absolutely love the idea of Skyens design and leaning the kit even further into a ranged tank support with a focus on vision control and ranged CC by keeping the w and e pretty much the same while maybe changing up the q to a possible close range heal
The only criticism against Skyen's design is that Ashe in game is a squishy, so making her plus size can make players confused if she is a tank or a marksman. Nevertheless I think it's creative and unique, thumbs up. :D
I love that, between League of Legends champion animations and Legends of Runeterra card art and emotes, there’s just so much that you can literally find an image or animation to illustrate anything you’re saying.
I love the idea of a rounder Ashe. It embodies Ashe's idea of peace, nuture and idealism perfectly. I would, however, dial it back just a tad bid. A plus size that's noticeably plump, but a bit more athletic...the true definition of T H I C C.
fantastic video! both you and applecork did wonderful work incorporating the different themes of ashe's lore into her design, and im in love with the way your design sensibilities fork in considering what theme to follow, wonderful job!
I ADORE both of these designs, and hearing the discussions on their designs genuinely made me so happy, and was very interesting. I kind of wonder about gameplay readability too - I think both design ideas could be worked into a model that conveys her role in gameplay, while maintaining the interesting aspects of these.
Also!
As someone who's read, like, all of the lore, your descriptions still help me understand then wayyy better - I have individual stories I reaaaally like, such as Roots of a Poisoned Tree and The Echoes Left Behind, but I kinda struggled to piece everything together. I had never thought of Lissandra's efforts as a censorship campaign, and I never thought of how that related to Ashe herself, or really thought about the fashy/conservative undertones with Volibear, or thought about the whole... nearly socialist element of the avarosans
I was missing so much, and gradually your views on the lore, and rereading by myself, really made things even more interesting to me, and made me realise so many other things about the stories and overall world. I'm also just now remembering how much I genuinely loved and gushed over your ideas for Seraphine lore :)
And lastly!!
My godddd, that webcomic has a kind of aesthetic that I LOVE, but don't know how to describe but I want to find more like it??
Quite honestly my favorite video of yours to date. Well rounded and one the most articulate scripts I've ever heard. I'd love to see more videos like this.
I can feel the Seraphine version coming soon...
No, no. KAI'SA. And Caitlyn.
Skyen the production value was through the roof on this video. The music the delivery of both the artists thoughts and your own. Brilliant video and by far my favorite one in your catalogue. Both designs are wonderful, Ashe is one of my favorite characters to play in League of Legends and either design would do the character justice if implemented in the game.
That was really cool. I get that this obviously took a long time to make, but if you think you have time for it, I would love more of this type of content.
Fat Ashe is such a good fit for her character. Amazing job bringing through her themes of cooperation and gentleness.
Damn, Apple_Cork is absolutely KILLING it. That is some amazing art. You defnitly made a right decition comissioning them for this. gj Skyen ^-^
Out of all the design iterations at 23:09, the one top and center really stood out to me. Now, I'm not nearly as good as you when it comes to criticising or trying to express my reasoning, but I'll try to explain why I like that one so much.
Now, the body type is a bit hard tell because of the clothing, but she doesn't look skinny by any means. Her face looks round and soft which gives the impression she's nice and maybe caring, which fits her theme as a contrast to Sejuani and Lissandra quite nicely. However it doesn't go into the mother aspect of the "Warmother" title quite as extreme as your final design, and instead, to me at least, makes her look much more like an actually capable warrior (archer). This particular design defnitly looks like she could have the muscle of an archer under that clothing. This way it already mixes both the motherly and the warring aspects of her character really well in my opinion, making her seem friendly and yet capable of fighting if she needs to, at the same time.
But, and this is the reason it stood out to me so much, it also makes her look like a leader. Reason for this is probably the (i don't know what to call it) wide band of cloth/leather and for around her shoulders, which makes them look broader, and, as can be seen on a lot of demacian designs, make a character look more heroic and inspiring, which also fits Ashe really well.
Obviously I would have loved to see that one as a full render by Apple_Cork aswell, but since that's not gonna happen, I guess I have to try and make it myself (with my quite limited skills)
Thank you for the video Skyen, it was a pleasure to watch :)
This was design, represented with more detail in B1 just before narrowing in on the two finalists, was definitely my favorite. I believe that if we got three final designs instead of two, this one would by far be everyone's preference. I blends the motherly and warrior aspects of Ashe so well, I'm surprised it didn't make the final cut.
I actually like both, but I feel like the more warrior focused design is better for the game and for the current point of her story. Skyen's design I think works best as a version of Ashe later in her life when she's managed to make some real headway in changing the Freljord.
I don't think Ashe should be chunky though, especially considering she's a warrior using her physical strength and dexterity to fight. I really love the idea of her embodying the Avarosan values in your design, but it just doesn't seen like she'd be a skilled archer and warrior.
This was a really interesting video to watch: I loved the ideas presented in the design ideation phase, and seeing both Ashe with an emphasis on her facet as a warrior and as a motherly figure was something I enjoyed. I personally found myself quite drawn to the B3 and C2 ideas -- I felt they had a lot to tell, and gave me an impression of a character who is both strong to fight and strong to protect. It's nice seeing so many ideas coming together this way and if you do more content like so in the future, I'll absolutely be watching it! Congratulations on the fantastic work both from you and Applecork.
Funnily enough, Skyen literally mentioned every single criticism I was thinking of leveling when he gave his self critique.
I loved that he self-cririqued though like acknowledging that no design is perfect was just refreshing to hear
I feel that Sky's design would be able to convey the "war" of warmother by just giving her the bow and a confident, head high, stance, walking as if she's leading a march for her tribe.
5 minutes left ok I'm getting excited to see this
This is neat; I hope it becomes a series.
The idea of plenty is not something I would thought about for Ashe/Avarosa, but it seems obvious in hindsight. I do prefer Applecork's picks, though, as, from a gameplay perspective, the fuller form communicates a tankier role on the battlefield
I really appreciate both design, and while TB's wouldn't work that much in the game imho (silhouette, role shape language and other stuff), I think it can exist alongside AC's as a future version of Ashe, older and maybe having achieved a kingdom where she doesn't need to take arms as much as in her young days (not that a larger person can't be a competent warrior, I've seen people irl with that bodytype be more agile, because familiar with their own balance, than people who are on the slim side of things ; just that walking across the tundra and mountains in full war attire will eat a good portion of your body fat).
I really hope you continue this series! I think a good way to keep them yt vids coming is at the start, you use the very short intro sneak peak to the video to intrigue viewers, then right after create some sorta generalised short pre-video talk or script ( idk if preamble means the same thing) about your intentions with the redesign that's at MAX 1 minute long and one that you can reuse on other videos of the series. This way, it's only a minute long and doesn't take up much time and conveys your actual intentions of what your goals of the video are, while the intrigue of the short intro keeps people excited for the video itself. As while i personally don't mind, the long 4 minute preamble can be a bit of a factor that turns people away
This is the kind of content i LOVE. I think both redisigns are awesome but i prefere the1st one (or something in between) cause the 2nd looks too diferent from the original Ashe. Like a whole new character. Anyway I think LoL needs a chubby fem character or a really old woman (Lissandra, Camille and Le Blanc it doenst count. Their skin never gets old or something XD) We deserve more characters like Illaoi and Taliyah.
Yeah. Thats what I was thinking. When I saw the second one I thought about a the seal mother (but I want this to be a monster instead if they ever release her) or how I thought Illaoi was (before reading her proper lore since at that time I just knew about her because she appeared in the harrowing story).
These are both amazing and they look like a real progression from the starved founder of the Avarosa to the queen of plenty that shes meant to represent
Having a Curvy/chubby Ashe would even still make sense with her current gameplay. She's an inmobile adc, doesn't have any escapes and half of her abilities are global, so having her not being able to do weird gymnastics or dashes to move around, and having a long-range scouting gameplay makes a lot of sence. Even her slows are more about "kiting by making enemies slower" than "me running faster". It just makes so much sense really.
I'm most drawn to the C and D rows from what's shown at 23:29 just because it's what embodies the motherly aspect that the Avarosans have better than the others from my experience. It doesn't scream war, but it does scream that there's a warm meal and a place for everyone. Good redesigns and I like the idea of doing this
I mean, anyone who looks at your twitter knows you have no problem with sexuality.
But jokes aside, this is a really fascinating video. I love how constructive it is and thank you for introducing me to this artist! He's really good!
I looooove the longer, elegant iterations of her dress!! Very much reminiscent, at least to me, of folk dresses and fashion of places such as Norway. I think it helps to draw on culture and heritage to connect her solidly to the Freljord. Both designs were just so gorgeous!!!!
"i wonder if this plus sized character is a tank hmm"
UNTRADITIONAL ADC
Thornmail Ashe Comeback?
I study character design and arts for a long while and character designing for my own characters has always been very complicated for me, it's something I've always struggled with and I seem to never be satisfied with the designs I come up with for my characters, always going back on design choices and making changes, never having a complete version of a character I've drawn hundreds of times.
Today I was a little bored and saw this upload, and usually I don't really have the time to watch 40 minutes of redesign or anything in the sort due to personal responsibility, but today I gave it a shot as I had nothing to do.
When we got to the character designing part, it unironically taught me somethings that I have just not seen or needed for a long time. Seeing the process of creating a character in this video was fascinating, I just started taking notes.
So hey, I don't know if Skyen will ever read this comment but I wanted to thank you for this video! It was surprisingly educational! Thanks!
I'm incredibly flattered that our work helped spark something in you :) I go back and re-design my characters constantly, so you're not alone lol
Glad you enjoyed the video!
I liked both designs. Both Skyen and Apple_cord bring up good ideas and both tell interesting stories. Personally I like the warrior idea more, because when I think about life-long archer, I think back to my old archery coach who was jacked as hell. But at the same time, Skyen designs strikes a very familiar cord, that I also really like. When I think leader of a farmer community, I don't think of skinny, slightly tone and evenly tanned super models shown in media. I think of the muscular and chubby bodies of my family and the families around me. I grew up in a rural farming community and a lot of Farmer's have the body type described by Skyen. They may be chubby and curvy but they are also muscular and strong. You can't work in a harsh landscape without have some muscle and some fat on your bones.
Either way, I loved the video Skyen and I loved the artwork shown in the video. Hope you can do more of these soon, I really enjoyed it.
I loved the video, I am not sure about making Ashe plus size, the archer archetype suggest swiftness of movement and speed.But I would love to see riot making a plus sized female character. I agree that most of female league champions are "sexy". Illaoi, Jinx and Kalista have very different bodytypes to all other league characters but we need a chubby female character.
I mean, Ashe has no mobility in game whatsoever, but also... idk I think a game with a space dragon can probably have a fast fat lady and not break all suspension of disbelief
we definitely need more plus size representation in league, whether ashe is good for candidate is debatable
@@TBSkyen Well you got me there. I still loved the design you created. Keep up the good work, I really enjoy your videos.
@@TBSkyen Yeah you got a point by saying a fat character can be fast on a fantasy World, but when you create a character that is supossed to be a certain way you might wanna follow, following the lore (as far as I know) I might see ashe thicc like mei!
As a big girl I would love to see more body types but I don't think ashe is a good candidate :(
very nice perspective, love people sharing completely new ideas. cool to see this version aswell. and also nice partner promotion man, ppl do really deserve this sort of credit, amazing job both of you.
Everyone has a right for their preference, but they are wrong if they think ashe's original design is better than either of those.
I cannot stress enough how much I liked this video. I love how you explained everything that could be explained about your thought process, I love how you decided to show two possible concepts and be aware of their respective tradeoffs. And holy fuck Applecork's drawing is *chef's kiss*
Please please please please please make more videos like this. I love League's characters and I love to see their designs get better this way.
Even tho I love your design and I wish we could get something like that in the game, I feel like she would look too tanky, adcs should look fragile and easy to kill.
I feel like the body type and the cape would not be easy to read in a team fight.
Something in between both designs, muscular and big, but not so round, would be great. My friend (ricardo soto, he is an archer yall should look him up! He has represented the country a bunch of times uwu) is big, his arm and back muscles are real big but he is also soft, and when I think about ashe I think about him.
It was a great video, and I really like your vision of Ashe, but what's the greatest thing about this video is a a usage of LoR emotes. I love it! :D
So, I would say it is not hard to see why the idea of a "plus size" character Model was chosen, there is no representation of those in the game, so it needs to be done at one point. despite this I would prefer the Slimer redesign, since it shows of the harsh life in the Freljord and her past. There is need of Plus sized Characters, but in my Opinion this would not fit for Ash. When I think about it who would be fitting as a plus sized female Character I think of Miss Fortune and maybe Karma.
Ash is a Archer and a protector of her people, so she is muscular. Also I really like the changes in the face. The Design made by Apple Cork just seems more fitting to the me, regarding the current state/role of Ash (in Game and in Lore)
Your Design instead seemed to me for a alternative Version of Ash. More of a Mother role, a symbole of the wealth and the "easyness" of a life, build upon working together. In that regard I really like it, But it doesn't work, in my opinon with her life, before all of that. Your Ash seems like less of a physical fighter to me, but more spiritual or atleast commanding from behind the Frontlines in times of need, which is definitly not bad! I like it, but it does not work that well as a simple redesign of the Champion, but more as a Overhaul, atleast in my Mind.
I apologize for my butchered english :D
Also, Thank you for putting that much Work into this! I can only Imagine how long the Design process took.
Personally, I don't think a design of a leader and protector should necessary be buff or muscular. If you think about Ashe being more of a political figure who has to make decisions, showing incredible feats of physical strength isn't necessary for her, her qualities of a leader, strong will and morals are
@@MissSam that would work better if she wasnt also supposed to be a fighter, which despite her anti-war stance, she is still an archer/fighter.
Youd get some weird disonance between game and lore with Skyens and even though I dont like current ashe at all, there is atleast better connection with the magical bow wielding archer that you get as a player.
I like miss fortunes body, she gives Jessica rabbit vibes
MF is a pirate, they were eating so little nutricious things during thier time in the sea that they sufferd illness from it, how would she be +size with such a lifestyle?
Btw, LoL has Gragas
@@Vizible21 Not as the like "dnd" representation of a "fighter" sure, but the rounder shape gives a sense of opulence, especially with all that gold, she ends up looking more like a dwarven merchant or a noble than someone lives in a harsh climate struggling to look after her people.
Ashe has never had much of her story defined in her design outside of ice bow, but what little intimate story she has, shows her trudging through snow living a tough life, which the 'mother' aspect doesn't really fit.
Most 'motherly' characters who end up subjected to that lifestyle (including her own mother) don't tend to look that way because they don't have the means to live life all 'comfy and warm' or be that kind of person, which is what Ashe's story is, her fighting against the same lifestyle of her people and mother but realizing she can't do away with it altogether, so it should still be a part of her.
Honestly it seems more like you just don't care about the story all that much, which is perfectly fine, but it's a discussion about the lore and narrative, you don't have to seek 'validation' from anything, but you can make an effort to make an effort to have a better variety and more interesting characters and stories.
I personally agree with Applecork's design philosophy of trying to keep original design aspects as homage. As much as I like the second design, I think after being in the game for over 10 years, it would be better to remain on the side of conservatism. I also think that it puts her more in line with the other ADCs, as with the exception of Kog'Maw they all have a smaller and relatively thinner design. I personally think that body type is an important signifier of the ADC role
Oh I'm SO ready for this
I agree with ashe having a radically different body from her counterparts helps match her radically different personality and ideology. Not much commentary from me since you already said basically everything I think about the design, so kudos from me.
One of my new favorite video essays! Thank you Skyen! Seeing you talk about your framework for character design followed up by putting that framework into practice, beautiful.
Applecorks design sings to me more because I see it as a defender, a warrior. I like your idea but it felt more like you were tired of beauty queens and said “make her plus size cuz no one does that” all of the explanations feel like weak justifications that don’t fit the character as it stands. Ashe as a leader would need to be able to move quickly in an unforgiving terrain to stand by her people when battles did happen. They’re both nice but applecork embodies a more marketable and realistic version of what Ashe is. No hate though, just my thoughts and both look amazing.
Great designs. For some constructive criticism I would like to comment on is a missed opportunity in the 1st design. Giving Ashe a bracer on her left arm instead of adding the brown on her right. It's an archery tool so it leans into the warrior aspect, and it gives a perfect excuse to add more brown as desired. The current arm guard feels like it's on the wrong side (outside instead of inside) and I personally worry it could get in the way of a bowstring.
Holy shit that's gorgeous