Somethings Wrong with this UK National Park - let me explain
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- Опубликовано: 1 июн 2024
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There probably needs to be some areas fenced off for rotational grazing!
That creek needs beavers!
ruclips.net/video/1uKT5Dso08s/видео.htmlsi=oPNAlrxwGVAekqyQ < video
Rob, as a name of 1 american television show is called. "Curb your enthusiasm".
Rob, please curb your enthusiasm. I have done so, many many times.
It's a wider issue ok England's national parks the north york moors are a habitat shaped by sheep grazing as is the lake District and Cumbria more of it needs to be wilded.
Biscuits...The Yellowstone NP story is a perfect analogy to the UK parks. Before the reintroduction of wolves Yellowstone was greatly degraded by all the herbivores. A balanced ecosystem has greater biodiversity for sure. Thanks for sharing this story! You're doing great work to educate us all!
Yep it seems humans have so far been pretty awful at achieving that balance... appreciate it and the biscuits of course.
What kind of carnivore could we intro for horses?
Good question!
wolves!!!!@@snowstrobe
What carnivores are perfect for the United Kingdom. ? Big cats ?
Sadly, it's a similar story here in Slovenia. The media is causing people to fear the bear, wolf, and lynx, and so we've got less and less of them. Then the herbivores become too abundant, and the worst kind of apex predator is called for help... you know, the ones with guns and no sense or respect for nature.
The education of people about these topics is crucial. We should not fear nature, but the lack of it.
Also, biscuits!
Yeah this is a video which could be created in a any number of countries. At least you have true apex predators! Thanks Patrik!
@@LeaveCurious True. Thank you for making such informed and educational videos!
Cheers.
Wolves are making their comeback in The Netherlands. This has led to complaints from sheep farmers, who just don’t seem to want to invest in a couple of dogs to protect their flock, like they do in mountainous regions, or they’re too stupid to do some research into how farmers elsewhere deal with this problem. But I bet that so far more sheep are still being killed by dogs that weren’t kept on a leash than by wolves.
Luckily some owners know how to work with predators. It Fryske Gea works with movable sheepbarns for the night on their areas to protect the sheep from wolves. It's a great solution.
@@LeaveCurious We have true apex predators in the UK, I number myself amongst them. I can feed my family with healthy wild meat to supplement farmed meat and still have plenty of wildlife around. We don't need any more idealists living in cloud cuckoo land.
Biscuits! Usual problem with national parks in U.K. - no predators? Always a difficult topic, but until we do introduce the likes of wolves, lynx or bears, these places will always be unnatural. Pretty looking no doubt, but completely unnatural.
New Forest ponies are distinct from Exmoor ponies, they're on average a hand taller although admittedly they were derived from the Exmoor breed.
I guess this allows them to reach the taller trees! Interesting to know.
They don't look as primitive and wild as exmoor ponies
@@LeaveCurious After watching the rest of the vid I'd say they are are more like a couple of biscuits taller.🙂
Please will you do an in depth assessment of the current and future situation of Red Squirrel protection in the UK.
Controlled burning of Gorse ? Is ok ? Controlled burning of other ground vegetation is wrong? Mountain Hares ? Ptarmigan? Black Grouse ?
Biscuits! In some ways this situation reminds me of the struggles of Oostvaardersplassen in the Netherlands: an ambitious rewilding attempt with many grazing and browsing herbivores. Unfortunately, the lack of predators and space to expand has meant that the herbivores have overgrazed the land and begun to starve. Both places need apex predators to balance the system and truly rewild the landscape
Yes, I'd like to do a video on Oostvaardersplassen. You're right we need a better balance!
@@LeaveCuriousplease do!
I just wish people would understand that land has a carrying capacity, and that predators keep things in balance
@@LeaveCurious The sad thing is, the Netherlands has predators to deal with the problem. We have wolves. But they can't even get to the herbivores due the fences.
Elke keer dat ik met de trein door de polder reis, valt het me op hoe doods de Oostvaardersplassen zijn. Misschien moeten we een paar wolven vangen en daar uitzetten. Maar dat vinden de grotestadsbewoners dan waarschijnlijk weer zielig.
@@kellydalstok8900 GroenLinks wil de Oostvaarderplassen in contact brengen met onder andere de Veluwe. Op die manier kunnen zowel roofdieren als planteneters vrij rondreizen. Maar de Veluwe is ontzettend anti-wolf omdat ze denken dat ze alle herten uitroeien en zijn uitgezet. Tis bespottelijk. Ze hebben zelfs een webpagina waarbij ze dode herten enzo laten zien om op mensen hun emoties te spelen. Het is niet alsof ze elk jaar jagers het park in laten om op zwijnen en herten te jagen ofzo. En dat er al jaren is gezegd dat we teveel van beide hebben. Nee, tis de wolf. Tuurlijk.
Niet dat ik denk dat het ook daadwerkelijk zal gebeuren, omtrend GroenLink's plan. Maar ze hebben wel een punt. De echte oplossing is om de hekken weg te halen en OVP in verband te brengen met andere natuurgebieden. Zelfs met roofdieren krijg je uiteindelijk dat de dieren nog steeds opgesloten zitten. Dit krijg je in bepaalde wildparken in Afrika ook. Roofdieren moeten constant worden afgeschoten en er moeten constant nieuwe prooidieren worden geïmporteerd. Omdat er hekken zijn, kan niets het park in of uit. En daar krijg je slechte gevolgen van.
I went to the New Forest for wildlife photography and couldn't believe how dead the area felt. Many of our national parks are like this unfortunately.
keep away from the touristy bits. Try the northern areas, south of the A31 it's much less wild.
Such a refreshing take. Thank you so much, you put into words what I always felt about the new forest and the UK in general. Coming from southern Europe, my baseline is completely different and I feel like British people don't understand what terrible damage has been done to this Island
How is your baseline completely different?
@@cameronbateau6510 I would guess that this person is measuring their baseline from the fact that southern European habitats (vegetation types) are very different from those in Northern Europe with many other species present and a lot of UK species missing.
Biscuits, you're an excellent presenter, Rob!
I don't know if the population levels of free grazing ponies is higher now than it used to be, but we also have the subject of a massive deer population, and some of them non native.
If you raise the issue of control people get in a lather, but someone has to take the decision to do something positive.
And its not only deer in the equation, that includes grey squirrel population, and whether we should be reintroducing natural predators.
Yes there are too many herbivores both wild and domesticated within our national parks. Its always a sticky path to deciding how we deal with it, but we really must.
I can't even imagine hunting deer in such a well populated park area 😅 You'd have to shut it for the season, wouldn't you? People would probably be very upset but deer will starve with too many and it's not, IMHO, super hard to tell apart the different kinds and issue permits for certain numbers of each one.
@@stellangios
If it needs to be done an area can be made off limits, culling could be done at night by experienced people.
In terms of id, the Muntjac is a small deer easily identifiable to most people, I don't think that would be a problem.
Although people don't often see deer, generally people don't realise the size of the problem, they pose a serious threat to any regeneration of eco systems.
Biscuits. Great video - too many conservationists are squeamish about tackling issues involving supposed heritage/culture/tradition and the loss of wildlife so very well done Rob!!
I live on the Isle of Wight and visit or drive through the New Forest many times, and the biggest change I've seen over the years in the forest is the amount of deer . Comeing from the island where there is no longer a settled population of deer (some do occasionally swim over from the New Forest), we have always looked out for them . What was a rare sighting 30 years ago is now common sight. Some of the red deer herds are massive, plus many roe deer. Perhaps this is a side effect of no longer having a hunt ? Maybe they need more management? Without any large carnivores, they are free to stay in one area and overgraze.
Deer can swim, don't worry.
@markflower3934 - without a regular culling programme (however it's done), deer are guaranteed to overgraze until they destroy their own habitat. Humans killed off the predators which used to keep their numbers in check, so it's OUR responsibility to do the job, regardless of the howls of outrage from the bunny-huggers.
@@Sksk27547 They can, but not that distance!
the deer man will push as many as he can as he makes money from them he also plays close attention. Its the ponies that do vast majority of grazing from what I see and the owners only see them twice a year and just forget about them the glue/ dog food factory do not pay as much as the deer meat buyers
It’s always a good day when Leave Curious uploads!
eyyy - I'm working on these days being a little more frequent!
@@LeaveCurious yea, great video I think the area near my house the the opposite of this - the grass is soo long and the biggest herbivores are Hares lol
Biscuits! Great video. I work for a conservation charity and it's great to see more of this kind of thinking.
Yes, we must align past & future methods!
Yeah, as I've learnt more about biodiversity, my eyes definitely view things differently, but it's always surprised me how life-less a lot of the new forest seems to be.
Biscuits :)
Another great video Rob. You may be stirring up a hornet’s nest though - long time New Forest resident Chris Packham has received a lot of stick (of the nastiest kind) for pointing out that the grazing density of ponies has increased considerably over recent years. There’s a reason why it’s called “the tragedy of the commons”. Chocolate Hobnobs.
Oh and I also wanted to mention, there were clear signs of drainage on some of those drone shots.
Oh yeah, I'm well aware. Its important to take a stance. Things can be better. I think these issues are wider than the New Forest too, the evidence is there. Also, Chocolate Hobnobs are a fantastic biscuit.
I noticed!!
That expression specifically does not apply here... The people in the New Forest are Commoners, in the European sense, meaning a group sharing and maintaining a resource. It has a long history of being very effective and sustainable, that was before much of the Commons was stolen from us. The 'commons' referred to in that expression is referring to all the resources on the earth we rely on and inevitably must share.
@@snowstrobe Hi snow strobe, one the contrary the term specifically applies to this situation, the term has been broadened to cover wider environmental issues, but was coined with regard to ecosystem collapse due to overgrazing of common land due to poor management and the lack of controls on over exploitation by individuals. For what it’s worth, I live next to a large common in the south of England and many of my neighbours are commoners but rights of grazing and firewood collection have not been exercised for many years. The result is the loss of open heathland and succession to woodland. An area once famed for its junipers now has one elderly, overcrowded specimen surviving. Even the gorse has almost vanished.
Frans Vera trees in the gorse! Sadly overgrazing seems to be a huge problem in all our National Parks which don't have a fraction of the biodiversity they could :( Biscuits!
I has the exact same reaction when I went there in the summer. If wolves and beavers were introduced it would solve almost all the problems.
Yes and I think it would unfortunately create a whole host of new ones too!
The horses belong to people
Need less horses
Political and economic problem
Until then they need to fence of the rivers so that the surroundings can regenerate
@@knoll9812 Well, we need fewer.
Cookies :-) This is very interesting and I agree totally with your assessment. I do feel some follow up from the management of the New Forest Park would be interesting. Do they agree? What is their long term strategy? any plans to modify future management? legal constrains regarding grazing etc. Perhaps a follow up to see what could be done to improve....
I live near the New Forest and it is very sad how little wildlife there is.
Biscuits! Brilliant video! I love that we have national parks in the UK, but they seem to just be freeze frames of post-industrial areas like the Lake District and Much of the Peak District. The Unesco status in the Lakes is actually even worse as it ringfences a monoculture that is less than 400 years old; rather than putting in regenerative steps to make nature and biodiversity the central focus. It really annoys me that many people can't see that we damage our integral habitats at the behest of sheep, cows, deer, and horses. And for what, the "awwww" factor of hairy herbivores on holiday once a year.
These animals really can and must be part of our landscapes, but its all about finding that balance which we've been so poor at for many reasons.
Biscuits@ JonnyShire it’s not the awww factor, it’s money. Farming subsidies are allowing farmers to make a living from failing businesses, sheep and dairy are prime examples. The problem is too many people on the planet, believing we are the apex predator (hilarious when you look at our teeth and nails), that we have dominion over everything and that the natural world was put here just for us. Add to it the refusal to change (to a predominantly plant based diet for example), greed and power and you have the perfect recipe for where we are today. Human arrogance is beyond understanding, I’m sometimes ashamed to be human 😢
Humans are the apex Predator to say otherwise is wrong in my opinion.
Biscuits! 😂 Interesting watch, I grew up in the New Forest so know it well. The natural state of much of it is wetland, and the forestry commission have put quite a bit of effort over the last few decades into restoring that wetland. That included adding meanders back into rivers the Victorians straightened, i can give you some map references to where if you're interested.
There's a lot of enclosures there which are a mixed bunch, some are mostly pine plantations and some are mixed native woodland. The enclosures are fenced which keeps most of the ponies out, so only deer graze them. There's a few smaller sections with high deer fencing around them too, presumably for research purposes.
One enclosure burned down in the 90s and they left it to regenerate naturally, again a pretty interesting place if you'd like a map reference 🙂
The gorse, braken and heather tend to completely take over if not managed, which has always struck me as a sign of a damaged ecosystem.
Interesting to hear you say it's overgrazed, my baseline has always been closely nibbled grass so i never questioned it.
And they're New Forest ponies, not Exmoor. We have our own breed down there!
I wish I'd of spoken to you before I went, I was looking for any kind of enclosures to draw some comparisons on grazing levels. Theres certainly a lot of interesting places, in the new forest which I sadly couldn't get to. Feel free to send me an email, so when I go back I can make a more comprehensive video - robdymott@gmail.com - and thanks for the biscuits.
@@LeaveCurious no worries, I'll send you something detailed to that address 🙂
@@LeaveCurious I've emailed 🙂
This was really interesting to me as I live on the edge of the forest. Just FYI it is now illegal to actually touch the ponies and you can be fined.
Biscuits - the same goes for the Peaks and the Lakes, really, which are overwhelmingly dominated by sheep grazing. A lot of it is very beautiful but it's so frustrating talking to folks who see the countryside in all its green-ness and think that's all you need for biodiversity.
The Lake District would be more beautiful if there were trees. I tend to think of it as a degraded landscape due to humans and their sheep.
Biscuits! I live opposite the new forest on the isle if wight, our national trust has plans for rewilding and so hopefully we'll move more into that direction.
A follow up video including a discussion with someone who manages the New Forest could be interesting.
Biscuits. You mentioned how people have access to the whole forest. One thing they can do as well, is if it becomes too “inaccessible” by healthy growth, just add trails. So then humans can come and enjoy the biodiversity without overly trampling it. Going on trails with my dog in the forests of the Pacific Northwest was one of my favourite pass times to really enjoy nature in all of its biodiverse nature and was a major part of my eco-conscious education. Too many humans doesn’t have to be a harm if it is done right.
The trails through the forest seem numerous and the footfall constant, i don't think that this will be lost anytime soon. Thank you for the biscuits.
Biscuits…… I’m a park ranger in south wales and I must tell you, I love watching these videos. Seeing our natural spaces become degraded is awful, we need more people like us in the world that are educating the next generation and hopefully, we can turn the tide and restore more of our woodlands and natural spaces back to their former”wild” glory.
Keep up the amazing work buddy 👍👍
Biscuits! I have a degree in Ecology from the 1970s and it is lovely to see how many people are interested now when compared with then (hardly anyone).
I've always been disappointed on my few visits to the New Forest. Mainly because there's no forest. Just patches of woodland between what you describe so well as lawn. Ans it's not like the ponies are native inhabitants. Biscuit.
Yep, a lot of national parks in the UK feel like you're walking through, vast open landscape. Thanks for the biscuit.
Well to be fair it’s only called a forest because that was the archaic term for land that the king hunted on
Interesting video Bicuits, lots of things to ponder for example I imagine many people would enjoy the lawn like areas so they can easily walk and play on them...apart from having to doge the horse droppings etc. Your point about how a place changes overtime may be the way of education and a path forward. Cheers from NZ.
Yes thats exactly what the lawns are for and I can understand why, but must be have those spaces in national parks when so much needs to be done. NZ is a beautiful place, I'm always looking for a chance to go back!
Bickies! Fine video. Have you done a similar one for the South Downs? It may be worth remembering that both the New Forest and South Downs have not been National Parks for very long.
I haven't yet and yes this is a very good point. Thank you!
Biscuits. In my country, we have a similar situation but not due to overgrazing or trampling of animals but due to overtourism a certain mountain or place gets. Hence, some local authorities imposed limits as to how many people can hike a mountain or camp there. Sometimes, banning tourism in the area to let the environment recover also works.
Biscuits!
Hi Rob, first off, thank you for making a video of my beloved New Forest! A few comments from a NF local. I must admit my knee jerk reaction was 'oh great, another outsider telling us what to do!' but you have made some very valid points in respect to the over grazing, which is a well-known and often contentious issue amongst us locals.
There is no doubt that we have collectively suffered from shifting base line syndrome and that the Forest is, as it always has been, in a state of flux. While I personally would love to see my home grow more wild there are many to whom that would be a disaster. The new forest area is home to 180’000 people, and there are many needs to be met. Simply put the Forest has never been wild since it’s creation in 1079, it is a landscape shaped by people and one that has shaped it's people in return.
The Forest is often just seen as a tourist destination and a place to graze cattle and ponies, but it is so much more, and to view it through this narrow lens does not do the Forest justice. Agriculture, forestry, commons grazing, pannage, foraging, leisure, tourism, quarrying & fishing are just some of the ways we draw from the land but it is not a one sided relationship, we care for the land as well. We are home to the majority of Europe’s low land bog and heath, the only place where you can find all of the UK reptiles in one place, innumerable heathland birds and insects found nowhere else in the south. The Forest is a bastion of biodiversity amongst the intensively populated and farmed south of England.
Your video struck a negative tone and echoed the view that we are ‘stuck in the past’ which is simply not true. There a numerable projects across the Forest for nature, from decanalizing our rivers and streams & salt marsh protection to planting of pollinator pasture. All part of our biodiversity action plan. While the change can feel slow it is important to appreciate that there are an enormous number of hoops we have to jump through. Having recently become a National park we are also a SSSI, RAMSAR Site, Special Area of Conservation & Special Protection Area to name just a few! I promise we are trying!
Sorry if this came across as a winge, but I think you have missed the core of what the Forest is, a balanced and shifting human and wild landscape. One that I feel could be used as a metric for rewilding other rural areas. If you want to go on more of a deep dive I would love to show you around our Forest and help build the a bigger picture of the landscape. And a few pubs as well…
All the best,
Nick
No I fully appreciate I did not visit everywhere nor cover much of the restoration that is going on. It was a snap shot of just what I could find. This video on overgrazing could have been made in any UK national parks - just so happens NF is relatively close. Like all national parks, they are adaptive places and I will certainly be making more videos on it and its pubs of course!
I definitely don't want anyone thinking that I don't enjoy the new forest, because it is a lovely place.
@@LeaveCurious It's interesting to hear it is considered an issue else where, often when thinking of overgrazing my mind jumps straight to sheep but no doubt cattle, ponies and donkeys will all do the same damage.
yeah no spot, domestic and wild herbivores all can contribute to it, they do have different grazing techniques too, which of course in the right balance can create more diveristy. @@littlenick2559
Thanks for taking the time to give your perspective Nick. It is great to hear that there are involved locals who are working to improve the ecosystem functions of the New Forest.
Are there any baseline surveys done to record species diversity and population? Any sites that have been earmarked for grazing exclusion? It would be interesting to have a visual/video record of areas that have been a focus for the work being done.
Gamekeepers play a large role in destroying biodiversity, too. Massive over-managing for Grouse Shooting on the North Yorkshire Moors is probably the worst example I've seen of this. We also get some of it in the Peak District where I live.
Nonsense, look up the Langholm Project which proved beyond any doubt that moors managed for grouse shooting had significantly higher levels of biodiversity than unmanaged moors.
What absurd rubbish. I can see first hand what horrendous damage you people do to the countryside where I live. Whether it's illegally persecuting raptors, trapping and killing literally any wild animals in the vicinity of your grouse breeding areas. Then there's all the trees that have been cut down historically to clear the land in the first place.
The idea that clearing, burning and culling is better for biodiversity than just letting nature regenerate its self is so absurd and dishonest, but it's all we've come to expect from you people.
@@billythewhizz8077
So agree with you. I am living in the Italian Alps at the moment, and there is an effort being made to bring back bears and wolves, but they have neglected to bring back the animals further down the food chain first! Hunters are allowed to shoot out deer to their hearts' content every year and they don't stick to those - everything that moves get shot, including marmot and squirrels. There are no wild boars left at all. Consequently the predators have nothing to eat and either move on or attack farm animals. Just like in the UK, decisions are made and not followed up on - adjustments need to be made all the time.
Biscuits...
Yeah, it does seem that the New Forest has been over managed and is really used too much like a farm than what it's actual purpose would imply. I suppose letting big chunks if the New Forest to just "grow out" for a while as well as removing some of the grazing animals will help tremendously.
It has a very long history of usage and was established as a national park in order to preserve that history. It would be hard to over manage as it’s main purpose was to preserve a managed landscape. I agree that grazing should be controlled better in areas where it’s causing a problem and this would have been done regularly over the centuries. If a wild national park is wanted then perhaps lobbying the government to set aside new land areas where one can be established. Better hurry though as massive amounts of land is set to go under concrete over the next decade.
@@Kualabear02 thanks for the feedback!
Great Biscuit video as always! The national parks are a bit sad once you have any understanding of biodiversity. Annoyingly, as you mention it wouldn't even take much to increase it massively! I find the Lakes and Dartmoor very similar in feeling, even Exmoor. These places should have much more scrub, many more wild animals, and more native species. Luckily there are a few charities now working towards that.
How are the national parks being sad once you have any understanding?
@cameronbateau6510 from a biodiversity standpoint most are not far from deserts. Sheep farming has killed off most new woodland in the last 100 years, and places like Dartmoor are heavily managed, and not really wild in any way. Luckily a lot of these places are improving with better ecosystem knowledge, but there are still plenty of large landowners who do not have an interest.
I've learned a lot about rewilding from your videos. Thank you for sharing. Biscuits.
Ah thank you for the biscuits. I do my best to keep them informative.
With overgrazing, I do think animal numbers is a far less useful metric than time, ie how much time an area of grazed vegetation has to recover before those animals return. Any control measures should have that in mind, whether it's fences, predators or herding. Now for some biscuits.
Biscuits, other than moving horses and deer to other parts of the uk to thin the numbers, what else can be done to regenerate grass meadows and woodland floor ?
a great video, well put together and cohesive, (unlike me!)
i agree with all you state in the video, its a place i have always wanted to go, but didn't realise it was so over grazed. i am always open to learning from new perspectives, and maybe one day i will try an ecology train uk course. Always looking for the next bit of curses i could possibly do.
P.S - Biscuits. (oh and that cheeky horse in someone's car boot, that made me laugh!)
Yeah for sure, feel free to send them an email to chat about what you interested in. Appreciate the support and the biscuits of course.
@@LeaveCurious cheers, thank you
i love this channel and mossy earth, and i am doing a course on woodland management at the moment and its my dream to work with you or a very similar organization.
Awesome keep up the course! Appreciate it, do you enjoy making videos?
Biscuits! It seems tighter grazing controls are definitely needed, maybe offset by turning some private agricultural land back to common land. Unlikely to get government support anytime soon though.
biscuits!
Would be a plan to have a flock of sheep grazing on the heatherpatches a few times a year. That will do A LOT of good. Fences aren't a thing one would want in a national park, yet it would help regenerate a lot of vegetation if you could move around the grazers every few weeks.
Yep, just having fewer animals would work too. Thanks for the bickies
Biscuits! Maybe the solution is freeing on the park a natural predator of the ponies? Maybe the lynx or the wolf? So it can reduce the numbers of ponies in the area and prevent overgrazing.
I don't think this would be appreciated by the people who own them. AFAIK all the ponies have owners. Also I'm pretty sure lynx are too small to prey on horses. Hares and fowl are more their size. Lynx should be supported in the area to help control the deer population, however.
@@Lythaera oh, I didn't know, England parks are somewhat strange to me, here in Argentina the parks are completely wild and wouldn't have owned animals. Thanks for the data!
@@TasteSouthsider I'm not sure about other English or European parks that have horses that roam, but in this case I noticed that many ponies were collared, which typically indicates ownership. They also seemed very gentle with the tourists, which also indicates that they are handled enough to not fear humans and react dangerously to being approached. I looked it up, and yes they are all owned by locals!
In the USA afaik all the wild horses are actually wild, however! And most of them are very very skittish, and shouldn't be approached.
Biscuits, Gorse is great fertilizer, a guy in New Zealand restored a native forest by letting the gorse stay
theres an interesting video on it.
Cool, I'll have to look this one up. Thanks for the biscuits.
"Man Spends 30 Years Turning Degraded Land into Massive Forest - Fools & Dreamers"@@LeaveCurious
Biscuits! I went to the new forest about 15 years ago, and something didn't feel quite right to me. After watching this I realised that it didn't feel very wild, especially as I live near Dartmoor, where we have some much wilder areas by comparison, also lots of lovely hills and therefore stunning views! I dare say it has some problems too, but it's so beautiful, I always feel better when I am there. I hope I always appreciate this stunning gem, that I've grown up with on my doorstep!
Biscuits are all well and good, but we need to talk about hierarchy - y'know, the scale from rich tea to hobnob.
Having seen the "Fools & Dreamers" video regarding the Banks Peninsular on New Zealand's South Island (which anyone reading this should go and view, if you've not already done so), you have to question the demonisation of gorse. You've already noticed the trees appearing in the middle of the gorse bushes here in the New Forest - which is one of its functions. The other one is soil building/stabilising, being able to thrive in nutritionally poor soils ranging from sandy to clay. We shouldn't think of gorse being a problem for horses/sheep/cattle/etc - we should see it as a plant that arrives to perform its function BECAUSE of the overgrazing. In Fools & Dreamers, it was demonstrated that because gorse needs full sun, once the saplings become trees large enough to cast shade, the gorse will naturally die back - succession in action.
The Yellowstone argument has already been made in other comments, but this is England and we're not ready to see the return of predators that can keep the large grazers moving. I'm not sure we will in my lifetime. Sad, but true. So, if us humans are going to be responsible for depriving the ecosystem of large predators, we ourselves must take on that role - and I'm afraid there's no better way to do that than with electric fencing, moving animals as herds from area to area and allowing each section of land to be grazed and then recover. It's no secret that this is also better for the health of the animals as well as better for the soil and flora. One cool aspect to this system is that the animals not only get used to being moved, they get excited about it in anticipation because they know they'll soon be munching on better quality, lusher grass. Milk quality/quantity also goes up with this practice and the animals become healthier, more pest and disease resistant - just by humans mimicking the natural function of predation. Equal parts bl**ding obvious and genius.
I'm feeling like i need to include more biscuits in the content, which is fine by me.
Yeah thats exactly right, I will have to watch the video you mention. An yeah forms of mob grazing where you're keeping animals on the move is nice approach, a better fit for Scotland maybe than the New Forest
I think you need to go back and study the history of the new forest. It is by definition mostly lowland heath. Most of the ancient forest is enclosed by fences and with gates. Pony numbers in these areas are strictly controlled. Large areas are being turned back into natural wetlands by the forestry commission.
A few things.
1. They are New Forest ponies, not Exmoor ponies (go to Exmoor for those). Yes, there is a difference.
Most of the rest of these are more for viewers:
2. Every time this comes up, on any social media, any discussion about it, there are comments about releasing wolves to kill the *livestock* grazing in the park. Probably stemming from ignorance of the fact the ponies and cattle are owned, but 1 minute's research could have alleviated that.
3. Don't touch the ponies/cattle/donkeys or feed them. This causes car accidents, also saw a pony kick a guy in the nuts the other day. Safety first! No biscuits for ponies.
4. When it was named, a 'forest' was not synonymous with a 'woodland', for the people in the comments moaning about it not all being woodland.
5. UK national parks were never intended to be wilderness areas or even nature reserves, and for people not familiar with them - they are all populated and full of roads and they contain entire towns and extensive working farmland areas, and they have since before the National Park system here was created. Unlike the national parks in the Americas which were all created after turfing out the Native populations and forcibly resettling them elsewhere (inc. Yellowstone, the favourite example of a restored ecosystem despite curiously not containing the native humans anymore).
They aren't wilderness, hadn't been for thousands of years, and that's why most of them don't resemble it much.
So there are always going to be some conflicts and need for compromise between different users and intended uses.
Btw I am an ecologist and I agree broadly that all of the national parks have some major issues with overly intensive farming and other land use issues but I see it so often, surprisingly so amongst my peers, that people do not know what NPs are in the UK and get annoyed that they don't match up to the romanticised colonial vision of wilderness inflicted on certain other countries.
Thats a very good point, UK national parks have and probably never have been like other National Parks. I think it would be silly to think that we can create large open expanses of wilderness, but I certainly think that we can do a whole lot more to make them wilder. Big picture its what we really must do.
@@LeaveCurious absolutely, farming practices more sympathetic to wildlife is vital, same as everywhere else in the UK. And we need to ban driven grouse shooting and pheasant farming yesterday, *please*. The Peak District in particular is grazed and burnt within an inch of its life at the moment.
But I think it needs to be emphasised more when talking about them that the NPs here are not intended to be large, human-free nature reserves and that they are intended to preserve very obviously manmade landscapes as well as those lovely wetlands and woodlands (also all of the woodland in the UK has also been managed by humans for hundreds, even thousands of years at this point!).
Otherwise you end up generating lots of "wElL wOlVeS wOuLd kIlL tHe pOnIeS oFf" type comments from armchair wildlife biologists incapable of nuance or any complex discussions
@@thornappleteai give the ponies apples and pet them😊
@@DerekDerekDerekDerekDerekDerek no need to boast about putting them at greater risk of being hit by cars 🙄
@@thornappletea they are no where near any roads, and horses rarley get hit by cars.
Where was all the flowering Gorse? It’s a fantastic species for wildlife and should form part of any heathland or scrub matrix. It’s a disgrace that they’re burning so much of it under the guise of ‘controlling’ it, when it’s quite clear that it’s to accommodate the huge amount of grazing animals. We do this throughout all of our national parks, too. If our so called heritage involves blatant eco destruction, then not only do I have no connection with it, I want it gone. For far too long our land use has been kept in the hands of people who have vested interests, and it’s about time we have a complete overhaul of it. It’s very possible that we’ve mismanaged areas of the UK for a century or more; that shouldn’t then become a tradition because of the time that’s lapsed!
Love that last bit, just because something has been done for a long time - it doesn't make it right!
As for flowering gorse, I'm not sure i noted much on my visit
Biscuits. Watching you from southern Ontario, Canada. The shifting baseline syndrome is real my friend, thanks for bringing up that important topic. I think there's a book that's come out recently (in the last 10 or so years anyway) called the The Once and Future World, or something like that, that is all about shifting baseline. Keep doing what you're doing man, and know that you are not alone.
I absolutely love videos like this from people like you, where someone who genuinely cares about an ecosystem will visit it, look through it, and tell as many people about it so that it can become better. The New Forest looks like a beautiful place, even with the overgrazing impacts, and I can’t help but imagine how it could be even more gorgeous and healthy. Along with a reduction of the number horses (or a system of containing/excluding them from certain areas in a rotational manner), would an increased diversity (without an increased overall number) of large herbivores help? Perhaps some small cattle and/or red/roe/fallow deer? I don’t imagine many herbivores besides horses would (or should) gladly commingle with people on the lawns, but maybe restricting some of the lawns and converting others to taller grasslands could give space for shyer herbivores that the general public shouldn’t interact with. One species that does have an arguable place in British woodlands and could definitely increase the tourism value are Barbary Macaques, and I’d imagine that (in controlled numbers) their foraging could spread seeds and increase biodiversity overall.
Also: Biscuits
Since I’m deep southern ‘murican that brings to mind a thick savory bread roll, either with butter and strawberry jam stuffed in it or gravy drizzled onto it.
Yeah, I'm sure methods like mob grazing could be effective, although not traditional for the new forest. Diversity of grazers in the right volumes is always best, just look at somewhere like the Knepp estate. Thats pretty interesting, I haven't considered barbary macaques in a UK context before... thanks for the bickies!
How does the new forest look like a beautiful place?
Maybe feeding biscuits to the horses could make them eat less vegetation ? I'm sure they'll love that furthermore ! (their health maybe a bit less however...)
Hmmm now thats some out the box thinking ... i wonder what would be their favourite ?
It could cause colic and possible death so no thank you. But I know you're joking
@@charlottescott7150 Oh, so their health would really not love that, and them not as much when the consequences begin... So we should give the biscuits to the soil so it produces more grass and keeps the horses out of the woods !
@@Hobbit_libertaire perhaps 😂
Huge horse ' biscuits ' littering the landscape are a sure sign that New Forest can hardly be called a proper forest anymore. The land needs some temporary fencing to allow areas to regenerate.
I was really hoping to find some areas that are deer fenced. But I didn't, I'm sure there are though and I bet they're full of life
Agree with everything you said. There's so much opportunity to improve areas such as farmland, roadside verges, woodlands, wetlands. Unfortunately, this government is only interested if a project can make them a quick buck. Keep up the good work.
This environment could be full of wildflowers, fluttering fritillaries and naturalistic interest for all. Instead we have a bland landscape denuded by overexploitation. The interests against changes in the way the commons are managed would be intense. Thanks for standing up and making the argument. Some biscuits and a cup of tea are deserved.
Overgrazing is much wider than the New Forest. Its evident throughout the UK. Its important we're aware that our National Park can be so much more.
At 68 years, I think I'm a wee bit old for a career in ecology! Yes, far too many ponies. They are obviously doing well with minimal oversight: perhaps some of them could be moved to other rewilding projects where they actually want some large herbivores?
UK, partiicularly English, National Parks are an embarrassment. Perhaps they worked back in the time of say 20 million people living in England. Now they need far more active management - or perhaps more accurately - restraint, so that they can be a refuge for native flora and fauna. Too many people, too many roads, too many buildings, too many businesses. They need a complete rethink. I doubt that will happen with your present Government, however. Yet again, this has to be grass-roots driven.
Oh yes! Biscuits!!😊
I'm sure you know an awful lot about nature Annie, no need for a career! Yes moving them to other areas I think is the best next step. Top down change hasn't worked so far for the UK and what successes we've seen have come from the hard work of individuals. It is a battle, but now is the time! Of course, thank you for the lovely biscuits....
Why is it that there are buildings and businesses in a national park? Remove and restore i’d say
@@Zoulstorm There always have been. National Parks in the UK are very different from in most countries and often cover an area of countryside that is quite densely populated and heavily farmed. It would be impossible to remove the buildings and people.
@@anniehill9909 Interesting, it´s true that in most other countries a heavily farmed, industrially managed countryside is just called rural land. The "national park" moniker might give people the mistaken notion that there will be something natural in the area, not just a industrial grazing ground.
@@Zoulstorm They were created many years ago. I think part of the reason was also to preserve heritage, not just Nature. There are - or were - quite a few rules about what could and could not happen, many of which were designed to keep the parks in what really I can only describe as a state of suspended animation. I suspect that after 13 years of Conservative so-called Government, a lot of those rules have been flouted or quietly ditched. At the time the parks were created, there was little knowledge about ecosystems. People thought that the landscapes created by sheep farming and grouse moors had 'always been like that' so the rules in the parks tend to perpetuate these landscapes. It's a long, slow, uphill stuggle to get people to realise that overgrazing is really damaging, that creating a species-deprived landscape so that rich people can come and shoot tiny birds doesn't really make any sense. If you suggest that there might be better ways to do things and that we ought to make a bit more room for nature, people start going on about 'the economy'. Nobody seem to appreciate that without a healthy environment, there won't be any economy!
Biscuits... Sadly I see the lack of proper management here in the Netherlands as well. We have a the Veluwe which is a relatively large natural area with forests and heathlands. Normally there is a ballance between these two ecosystems but the management does everything to keep the borders exactly as they are. So where deer are shot every year to prevent overgrazing of tree bark in the winter, the managers also let sheep graze on the heathlands to prevent the trees from encroaching on the heathland. Of course maintaining both ecosystems is a good thing but for some reason they decide what the balance should be, which plant is allowed to grow where and which species is allowed in each system.
Biscuits. I have lived in New Forest for some 15 years now and they have cleared where I live on the North side I'd say hundreds of acres chopping down a few hundred thousand trees (Oak, Holly, Beech, Willow, Silver Birch, Pine, and Yew to name a few) making way for more grazing land and for a few ground nesting birds. The forests where I once walked where full of life and sound and now it's like a dead ghost town. Most places around the country are planting trees where as here in The New Forest they can't chop them down quick enough
Wasn't there a story in the news not so long ago about a new private landowner who had just bought a large part of the New Forest and decided that it was his and he didn't want anyone walking on it ? Another case of privatisation such as we see in Scotland ?
I wish you'd touched on the impact of invasives in the park, particularly Rhododendrum ponticum. When I visited a few years ago I was shocked how out of control it's gotten.
Spot on. Thanks for such an honest appriasal. The fact that there is vurtually no natural regeneration of oak and beech, other than in fenced enclosures, shows that there is a serious issue here. Great video, thanks.
Biscuits. Gorse has proved to be a great nursery plant for native trees here in New Zealand. It guards and shades the the seedling, keeping grazers from getting at them until enough trees have grown up to form a canopy, which shades the gorse and so it dies off.
Great report... informative too. I hope the Commoners can step up and start controlling the numbers... biscoff
Cheers! It would be interesting to see how the forest would look after 10 years of considerably less grazing.
I did some work at franchises lodge in the New Forest that is a vast area of grass and woodland recently purchased by the RSPB not yet open to the public. They would agree with the problems highlighted in this video, they are doing work to connect woodlands via corridors of trees, control deer populations and remove invasive species. Furthermore, grazing cattle/ponies are not allowed in the area to encourage sapling growth. Great video!
Biscuits, always good to hear from you Rob! Keep up the good work 😊
Cheers will do and I appreciate the biscuits.
Biscuits! Having no knowledge that the UK even had national parks this was very informative! Grateful to be in canada with access to so many natural spaces. Hopefully the UK can find a way to recover its natural beauty without catering to tourism
Bisquits: I agree.. The day you upload a video is always a day I look forward to learning something new.
Thank you for all of it and for your live of the natural world
Biscuits. Great video. Thanks for the information. We have similar issues in the Netherlands, one of the biggest being our very dense population, especially in the western part. We have brought back beavers in the area called ‘Biesbosch’ and they are thriving there, but some groups are fearing the beavers if they should break out of that area. We also have wolves again in our country, but even with small numbers of those, people are already complaining about the devastating effects of the wolves on livestock and demanding culling to limit the damage. A major issue in the Netherlands is the fact that nature reserves are quite limited In size, because of the dense population, so reaching a balance for rewilding is difficult. The surrounding areas have a relatively large influence, impacting the capacity of nature to restore balance.
Lovely biscuits! I’ve just started working in ecology in the Netherlands but within the parks in the city. There is so much to learn and it’s really interesting keeping that balance between human usability and areas we can’t accesss
Another issue is due to the absence of natural predators, the pony’s are more likely stay in one area, hence overgraze it.
This issue also ties with the reintroduced wild bison in Kent. The cocequences could even be more severe due to their bigger appetite and lack of space.
Did Bison have a predator?
yeah very true! that reintro to kent is within enclosures though, so it is very much controlled.
@@slozenger9000 wolves and lynx, go for the young ones so the herd keeps moving, the adult ones only had human hunters
@@slozenger9000probably lions. According to what I can find on the internet they lived in the UK and went extinct in the UK around a similar time, no doubt due to human activity. There was a land bridge to mainland Europe and they both lived there, bison until early 1900s.
Biscuits!! I havnt been to the new forest in a while, but seeing your post I too can see how this landscape could be so much better. Unfortunately there are many more pieces of 'wild land's ' that could also be so much more diverse!! Keep up the content, 🙂👍
The problem with the South Downs National Park is that they keep employing health and wellbeing managers or diversity managers and laying off rangers,5 or 6 recently. The remaining rangers spend most of their time sat at a desk or in meetings. The volunteer ranger service has suffered recently too
Hate to correct you but whilst the New Forest pony has had both Dartmoor and Exmoor pony blood introduced It is a distinct breed in it's own right. In fact the breed has had many blood lines introduced over the years in order to improve it's standard. Over my life time the NF pony has remained pretty much the same other than an increase in size they appear to have gained a couple of hands and are possibly finer coated. Of course this may well have added to grazing pressure, larger animal larger belly. Also it must be noted that different breeds can have differing grazing preferences that may well have been passed on.Cattle seem to be thinner on the ground than I remember as a boy or young man, And does anyone put pigs out in the autumn anymore and if so in what numbers. Even small changes in grazing patterns up or down can dramatically effect the ecology. Questions to ask have the large grazing animal patterns changed over the last one hundred years and if so when, why, and to what extent, What changes to the flora were noted if any. of course disease like Dutch Elm will have brought on change beyond just that of killing the trees. What other pests and diseases have had notable effects on the forest. We will also need to factor in the deer herd the growth in numbers of introduced species, can the effect of the hunting ban be effectively evaluated in terms of deer numbers and deer disturbance, as a boy when stags were still hunted on horse back catching sight of deer was usually at a distance but these days the distance at which a deer will bolt has dropped from about half a mile to a couple of hundred yards, this can be directly correlated with flora growth patterns. I would suggest that measuring the bolting distance of different deer species in any given area with the relevant studies of fauna could be used to predict future growth patterns or in reverse estimate deer numbers. It must also be noted that Many of the oaks planted for ship building are now coming to the end of their lives, when you consider most of the trees planted were probably harvested to build the ships military merchant and fishing. Over the last two hundred years how many new oaks have been planted ?? has the loss of the red squirrel population had an effect on new oak tree growth I remember a study undertaken as to the memory for buried acorns of red verses grey, too long ago to recall the results
Biscuits! I live on the outskirts of the New Forest so I visit all the time. It seems to have an old soul when you walk through it, but definitely with a sense that it is in some kind of distress. I was never able to put my finger on it but I think you've honed in on the issue perfectly, and I believe you're right that simply doing nothing (or less of something) is all it needs
Biscuits! I walked through a woodland area near Boldre (not far from Lymington) last summer (2023), it was early morning about 7am and what struck me was that there was no bird sounds, I’d expect a dawn chorus but it was eerily quiet! So no birds means no insects therefore no biodiversity….
A while ago I read a tweet from a smallholder, and it was a list of plants, including shrubs she said her sheep will always eat before they bother with grass. This made me think of a simple solution to overgrazing, that farmers don't seem to do. Sow seeds of these fast growing bushy, leafy plants in fields, to provide food for the sheep. This means 1 acre will have much more biomass / food than a typical pasture grassy pasture field. The benefits are the farmer can keep more sheep in a field, compared to if it was just grass. The farmer doesn't have to spend as much time moving them to new fields because they have ate all the grass. As fewer fields would be needed for the same number of sheep or cows (or in the New Forest's case - ponies), this frees up space for rewilding, forestry etc, without reducing the revenue for the livestock farmers. Perhaps there is a flaw in my idea, but I can't see why it would not work??
It's a similar deal in the lake district. Grazed to the nub, it resembles a giant golf course with too many sheep. To encounter proper wild places (as opposed to manicured parkland) one has to leave Britain.
biscuits, thanks for your awesome videos.
Love seeing these video catalogues of the UK. Hopefully this is the before footage of a great before and after comparison video in the years to come.
The one thing that I think the vast majority of people don't know is that National Parks in the UK are not publicly owned. They are a mix of private, 3rd sector and public bodies (MOD, Forestry etc). IMO this has huge implications for how NPs are and can be managed. Management of these areas is not as simple as "we should do X because it is a national park".
There are legal protections for landowners (and tenant farmers) that complicate matters.
When people compare UK NPs to places like Yellowstone in the USA, it's a false equivalence, as Yellowstone has been under the exclusive control of the Secretary of the Interior since 1872 (As far as I can see it's owned by the federal government but there are other interests such as a 99 year leasehold by an oil company, native tribes who had the land previously etc).
The largest national park in the UK (the Cairngorms National Park) is 20 years old! There are people who belong to that land and were working on it before someone drew a line around the area and called it a national park. This is not something that can be just changed.
do you consider those lawn like overgrazed meadows artificial savannahs? since there are often large bushes and trees in the middle of them functioning like islands
In addition to the control on grazing levels, the active forestry areas should not be allowed to plant pines as it does not support wildlife compared to broad leaf that naturally occur in the region.
Love your output Rob. It strikes me that a lot of the issues surround just not knowing. Perhaps there's a need for a site survey App folks can download to create or add to a database?
Location (W3W?), condition, photos .... ?
Biscuits! . Brilliant idea! Thanks for a very good educational video. This is very important, and needs to be dealt with. Looking forward to the next one.
They could fence areas off to keep grazers out. Then remove the fences in a rotational basis evey few years and move them to different areas. That would give areas chance to regenerate.
They also should restore the wetland areas or increase them. ❤
Great video. Very informative and with lots of relevance to other places where over grazing is a big issue.
Imagine a Knepp the size of the New Forest!
its whats required!!!
@@LeaveCurious Indeed, but too many vested interests in the New Forest. Like herding cats! (I'm an Essex boy too, btw). Texas has a different problem, but you might enjoy this ...
ruclips.net/video/ZSPkcpGmflE/видео.html
Love your channel so much! So much learning and hope
Biscuits, I really like your point about landscape and memory and how the knowledge of past generations about the landscape can be lost.
Biscuits. Hi Rob great video, I'm 71 this year and have been visiting the New Forest since I was 16 on my motorcycle wild camping then and I am now in Verwood Campsite in my camper van, I can agree with you the changes in the forest over my time, it was a more wilder experiance to visit the forest then, it is now as you correctly state to managed its getting like theme park. yes it needs some predators not man to thin out the grazing and less man managegment, good luck with your future involvement I wish you well
New forest ponies are a recognised breed on their own. They are not Exmoor ponies. That’s not to say there are not Exmoor’s on the forest, there are.
Biscuits!
Excellent production & observations 🦉
Thank you ❤
Hey rob i am doing my own rewilding project and plan to use shetland horses and kerry cows in it, while this is awful it did give me the idea to plant gorse in a circle and plant trees inside it with the hope being that theyll start to spread out after a while, dont know how much intrest this is to you but hey now you know
biscuits. The Newforest is on my doorstep, and I know it well. I don't totally agree with you, but appreciate its your view based on a snapshot of a short visit. Not sure if its overgrazed but four levels of management indicate there are many with their nose in the trough, so its probably over managed.
The benefit of that is if you contact any of the overseeing organisations you will get a prompt response. The animal husbandry is first class, in that I have never seen an emaciated animal, ever. It can look dry and parched in the Summer, and responds quickly to a shower of rain.
Hope you enjoyed your visit.
Thank you for giving your time to show the rest of us what our local government and media should be discussing. But I don't thank you for giving me a craving for biscuits 😊
In our alpine national parks in Australia we have a very similar situation with Brumbies roaming wild. Many people have a sentimental attachment to due to their historical connection to our wild colonial pioneering days so any discussion regarding their removal gets emotional. Combined with growing feral deers numbers and generational cattle grazing, our delicate alpine areas which are home to many rare flora and fauna species, are getting hammered. It is a complex issue but needs action.
Biscuits😂
Greetings from south germany here!
You mentioned a point which touched me, because by the way - there are areas in germany which are very wild- but they are Hard to find..and my husband and i try to show Our son these areas, so that he can see the difference...i love your content and mossy too..
Love susan
thanks Susan appreciate the support! keep finding those wild areas, because they are out there!
I see old trees left growing around homes, businesses, parks, farms and ranches. No babies. We seem to be good at creating a picture framed golf course image. And then later when we've bulldozed, moved and grazed away all the future growth, the old trees die. And then what? I heard some old Scottish guy say that's how we get the Scotland we see today. But I've seen it in lots of other places around the world too.
Biscuits. The shifting baseline is a very good point. In the UK the baseline was pretty much held until WW2.