I was wondering what you used to create the videos . I dont think there is any specific game that has these graphics and plane content that you could have used to create you r videos
My Grandfather was a tail gunner in one of these planes. I just recently learned that he wanted to fly, but was rejected because he wore glasses. So the Marine Corps eventually settled with him being a gunner. He never spoke of his tales, but a recent discovery of letters is giving me an insite on his experience.
Always enjoy hearing stories of zipper heads being shooted up by tailgunners. I say that because of the war crimes that we're committed against fellow Americans. Something this video did not speak about was that the people who were captured with George Bush was shot down or put on an island and some of them were eaten by the zip heads.
@@TJ3 I'll photograph the few I can read and some articles with them. He was quite the writer, some contain upwards of 4 pages with writting on both sides. It's a lot. My favorite is he ends one letter with how the .45 caliber revolver can 'blow a mans head off at 600 yards' and at close range 'blow a hole so big you could fit your head inside.'
Important detail for the crucial Battle of Midway: Don't know if this relates to the Avenger and B-26 torpedo attacks. But as for the Devastators... while they were being annihilated by the Zeros flying CAP, the Dauntless SBDs were about to inflict the most decisive 5 minutes in military history, mortally damaging 3 Japanese fleet carriers. If the Devastators hadn't drawn the CAP down, the battle could have gone very differently. The TBD aircrews were massacred; but their sacrifice may have won the battle that marked the turning point of the Pacific war, and the practical end of Japanese naval air power. They accomplished their mission with great success, at very great personal cost, and should be considered heroes.
My 6th grade teacher was an Avenger pilot during the war he flew off the carrier San Jacinto he was in the same squadron as President Bush. RIP Mr Morgan.
Now wait, to be accurate, these planes were supposed to have fighter planes to assist, but due to poor planning, or miscommunication, or whatever, they went in anyway you try to complete their mission, knowing full well that without the fighter plane they were basically committing suicide runs. Bravery like that was uncommonly common during WWII, but needs to be pointed out
That’s probably true. But not for the obvious reason. For being the US’s primary torpedo plane, by far most of their missions were not torpedo missions. The Avenger had an amazing payload and ordinance capacity when used as a level bomber for ground attack. It could get airborne with a full bay of bombs. plus two more bombs and six rockets on the wings. Or it could carry a dozen depth charges for sub hunting. Torpedoes were really just for the heavier Japanese warships. And they didn’t show up that often. We saw a similar evolution with Destroyers. By 1944 most US destroyers we’re having one of their 2 torpedo batteries removed and replaced by more AA guns. There just weren’t enough targets for torpedoes. And what targets there were, the subs were handling before the destroyers or Avengers got involved.
@@andrewtaylor940 Excellent summary of what happened. I came here to add essentially the same paragraph. Guys like us have to spread the facts about history less we lose it all.
My hat is off to your dad. They suffered greatly but were heroes with fortitude. A third of your group killed is a mental blow to the survivors. Surviving three torpedo attacks must be a feat. At Midway, just one was about impossible. Thanks for sharing your dad's real life experience. Too bad some zoomer had to play google professor.
G'day, Yay Team ! That sounds a lot like RAF Coastal Command, making Torpedo Attacks in Bristol Blenheims out of England onto German Convoys hugging the Norwegian, Danish, Dutch, Belgian, French and Spanish Coasts.... The USAAC's 8th AF Bomber Command regarded 25 Missions as constituting a Tour. US Bomber Aircrew flew 1 Tour...& then Went Home... RAF, RAAF, RNZAF, RCAF, RSAAF Bomber Command Aircrews had to fly 2 Tours of 30 Missions, with a 3rd Tour of 20 - and 6 months Instructing after 1 month Leave following each Tour. Coastal Command Torpedo Attack Aircrew who came back from THREE Operational Torpedo Runs were Sent back down the Lines..., to Instruct for half a year Before going out to get closely Shot At, AGAIN... German FLiegerenAbwherKannonaden Was ALWAYS so Wonderfully Bloody ACCURATE... Y'see... Such is life, Have a good one... Stay safe. ;-p Ciao !
About the 6 TBF Avengers at Midway. They were the first 6 production planes flown almost directly from the factory. They were supposed to be aboard USS Hornet. But they missed the rendezvous, so Nimitz sent them direct to Midway. The crews flying them that day really did not have anywhere near the prep or experience with the planes that they should have. Plus you still had early war US torpedoes, which tended to fail.
From the book “Fly Boys”, a Japanese soldier witnessed Bush’s crash landing. When Bush decided to row out to sea vice go toward the island (pilots knew being captured was dangerous), the soldier felt he made the right choice since he would have be executed and the insane Japanese Commander would have eaten Bush’s liver. 😮
4:16 The land based TBFs were part of Torpedo 8. The TBFs had not yet been certified for carrier operations with the squadron but the were part of the transition of VT-8 from the TBD to the TBF.
The reports of failures are exaggerated by commanders continuing to use them incorrectly and failure to train their crew to ensure they are properly maintained
@@nip3004 The Bureau did test the “great” torpedo. The tests were limited in scope. During the post WWI years the military budget was bare bones. The Bureau didn’t give enough test. The Royal Navy & the Kriegsmarine had both tested similar torpedoes & both gave up on the design
Great video and accurate depiction of the problems associated with the Grumman TBF Avenger: Tactics and the dreadful performnce of the early MK-13 torpedo. I began working at Grumman Aircraft in Bethpage, Long Island NY as an apprentice engineer in the summer of 1957 and during the next 4 summers while studying engineering at Pratt Institute. I went on to earn an MS in Engineering at Lehigh and was hired as an engineer in 1962, working on the A-6 Intruder. Grumman was affectionately known as the Grumman "Iron Works" for the reliability and durability of their aircraft.
Did you know that they made a COD (Carrier Onboard Delivery) version that carried seven passengers. (would make a great private own aircraft don't you think?)
If I remember, the mk 14 torpedo, which was the variant of the mk13 used on submarines and destroyers. also had a lot of the same issues, causing many submarines that relied on them to become frustrated when most of the torpedos ran under the target or refused to explode on target. The people who developed the mk 14 should have been fired or jailed when they refused to say anything was wrong with it even when proof was provided and said it was the crews fault for not using it correctly. They would have threatened jail time for crews who tampered with the torpedos to hot fix the issues it had.
The isolationism of the 30’s resulted in many weapons systems being developed with minimal resources. The Torpedo was never tested with actual warheads due to cost constraints.
@@brookeshenfield7156 Not so much the isolationism as it was the Great Depression making budgets incredibly small, which meant testing was deemed financially unfeasible
At Midway they flew without fighter cover. No wonder their losses were high. Even though the TBF was a good plane, it was still helpless against determined fighter opposition. In my opinion, sending them to fight the Kido Butai without any fighter support was criminal folly.
On the other hand, those Brewster Buffalos and F4F Wildcats wouldn't have been much help against AA from the ships. And as the early dogfights with Zeroes proved, not much help against those either. It would take more experience for the Navy pilots to learn to go "gun to gun" against the Zeke, which allowed them to finally get ahead with the F4F and F6F 'cats.
The "Miracle of Midway" was that almost every error made by the Japanese cost them dearly while the American errors worked in their favor. The torpedo bombers arrived alone, and most were shot down. But they pulled the Japanese fighters down to wave top level just before the dive bombers arrived. Had the dive bombers, fighters, and torpedo bombers arrived simultaneously, the battle would have played out differently.
Something I have to point out about the Battle of Midway and anti-aircraft fire from the Japanese Navy, is how singularly ineffective it was. Only one SBD Dauntless was shot down that we know of by anti-aircraft fire during any of the attacks, although they might have gotten some of the other types and I haven't heard of it. But their Combat Air Patrols had been extremely effective. Also, the staggered attacks from both Midway and the carriers constantly prevented the Japanese Navy from being able to organize their second strike in addition to the IJN errors made. It really did all shake out in our favor.
I finally saw one of these in person at Oshkosh Air Venture last year (2022). I knew they were big planes, but I didn’t realize how massive they actually were until I was standing next to one.
Important notes - 1) Totally sorry about the text glitch at about 2:55. Don't know how I missed it. Ignore that, sorry I'm not perfect. Haha. 2) Before you guys tell me that George Bush is a well known story, yes, I know that many of you already knew that. But I wanted to include it because it is an important story and people who are not serious history buffs already may not yet know about it. 3) I know some of you would prefer MPH instead of KPH, however, the studies that I was quoting performed the measurements in KPH, so I did the same when I took their results. Thanks everyone!
Two things, TJ... 1 Could you pin your important comments so they appear first in the comment section? 2 I don't think it's well known internationally that George Bush Sr. was an Avenger pilot. When I tell the story to people then they are always surprised that Bush Sr. was a pilot that fought and was shot down in WW2. Love your stuff, TJ
My brother was the radioman/stinger gunner and flew off the USS Randolph. As an aside the Avengers that flew from Midway were the first TBF’s assigned to Torpedo Eight. They arrived at Pearl Harbor too late to be loaded aboard ship and were sent to Midway for the duration of the battle.
I want to add something about my uncle. He flew with Torpedo Squadron 8 off the Bunker Hill. They replaced the original TS 8 that was lost from the USS Hornet where there was only one survivor, George Gay. My uncle was lead bombardier of CV17. He joined the Navy at age 32 right after the attack on Pearl Harbor.
If I'm not mistaken, we had no Avengers flying from our carriers at the battle of Midway. It was Devastators from the carriers that were wiped out. But thanks for reminding me of the earliest Avengers deployed from the air bases on Midway.
There's a very important point about those Avengers that he omits and one he gets wrong. First off is what he got wrong, the Avengers flying from Midway Island, six, five of which were shot down, weren't from some separate unit that was formed on the island or sent there, they were actually planes and crews from Torpedo Squadron 8 from the Hornet and as such the one plane that survived the battle with two crewmen still alive means that Ensign George Gay was not the sole survivor of Torpedo Squadron 8, that's been a long standing WW2 myth started by John Ford when he made the film of them taking off from the Hornet with none to return and actually perpetrated throughout the years by George Gay himself by always claiming to be the sole survivor of Torpedo Squadron 8, which he really shouldn't have done out of respect for his two squadron mates and what they'd gone through, George Gay was simply the sole survivor of Torpedo Squadron 8 that took off from the Hornet, here's the actual story about what happened. When the Hornet left the east coast from Norfolk it'd just received 6 new Avengers that were assigned to Torpedo Squadron 8 but being brand new planes there were some maintenance issues that had to be addressed that meant they wouldn't be ready for a couple of days, so it was decided to leave them and their crews behind and that when they were ready they'd just fly straight from the west coast to Midway and at their first opportunity would fly to the Hornet when it's position was verified, don't forget the task force was operating under radio silence in an attempt to ambush the Japanese that was known to be heading for Midway, the 6 Avengers were escorted by at least one PBY that flew lead to Midway, the way things worked out they never had a chance to go to the Hornet before the Japanese task force was located so they simply launched their attack from Midway itself, five of the six were shot down in the battle and without any Devistators from the Hornet having survived the battle the surviving Avenger had no one to lead it back to the Hornet so it limped back to Midway Island, their plane was so shot up that Admiral Nimitz called their making it back to Midway "the greatest feat in the history of Naval aviation". I can't remember both of their names but one of the crewmen either the pilot or the bombardier had the last name of Fernier (I only remember that because there's a family lives up the road from me with the same last name, and here's one for you, they're relations to Alice Cooper whose real last name is Fernier and used to spend summers with them in my hometown in Pennsylvania when he was a kid, just an additional fun fact for you), anyways sometime in the 1950's when George Gay's book "Sole Survivor" was published about his experiences Fernier and the other survivor from his plane were sitting in the back of an auditorium where Gay gave a press conference for the books release, when it was over a reporter who was walking out saw Fernier and the other guy sitting there in the back and when he ask who they were one of them said "We're the other two sole survivor's".
@@dukecraig2402 Wow. Thanks very much for the real His-story of torpedo squadron 8. It makes sense because these were brand new planes just getting deployed during the first year of the Pacific war against Japan. I can imagine that the United states were absolutely scrambling to get whatever they could out to the front lines against the(at that time)seemingly powerful Japanese naval forces.
@@dukecraig2402 the six Avengers were tasked to USS Hornet and VT-8, they had nothing to do with VT-6 and USS Enterprise. Otherwise, I like your write-up on the situation.
@@Jamesbrown-xi5ih Yea after writing it I edited it to say Hornet instead of Enterprise but I didn't get all of them, it's hard to do on a phone since you can only see a little bit of what you've written instead of everything at once, scrolling through I missed a couple, if you notice I'd already changed some to Hornet.
My father was a TBM pilot on the USS Enterprise, CV-6, as a member of the very first squadron to fly low level attack missions from an aircraft carrier at night and or in bad weather. He was in Night Torpedo Squadron 90. His airplane was equipped with search and attack radar, had a radar altimeter, electronic counter measures gear (ECM), radar detection gear that could detect and home in on another airplane's radar. Just amazing technology for his time flying the Avenger late 1944-to May 1945.
@@ggsmith48906 the TBD-1 Devastator was pulled from service after Midway, the TBF was designed and built by Grumman, but due to the demand for as many F6F Hellcats as could be built, they were instead often built by General Motors as the TBM. It's the same aircraft just built by a different company at a different Factory. Side note, the TBD Devastator gets a lot of bad press for its performance at Midway, but that's unfair considering its performance at the Battle of Coral Sea. And also to note that the Avenger didn't fare any better without fighter cover. It's just that the TBDs had the bad luck.
TJ , I've said it once and I'll say it again. I love this series as I call it. You had me as a subscriber from the start . The channel has grown and matured by leaps and bounds. Keep up the amazing work and hope you have an awesome day . 👍
Another Great video TJ. You make Fridays even better. Can't wait to see what you have instore for us next week. As you know I live in the Keys and have flown over them and the Bahamas many times they look really similar from the air the only real difference is the Keys are all connected by a single road (That used to be a railroad track) that runs through them from the mainland to Key West. Most of the islands in the Bahamas aren't connected by a road. As you know I'm a retired Captain one day I was sportfishing in 600 feet of water South of a Lighthouse on the reef. Inside the reef the water is only 45 feet deep at it's deepest. We went through a sudden summer thunderstorm and heavy rain. Due to the lightening I shut down all my electronics and pulled their antennas down leaving me only the fathometer and 2 compasses. When I looked at the compasses they were both slowly spinning I was Trolling West with a following sea so I knew I was not changing course and at time. I could see the light house due North of me but the compasses both said I was North of the light house Not South. Thats impossible because I still had 600 feet of water under my boat. There was nothing metal by my compasses one was up in the flying bridge with me and the other compass was down below in my cabin. They are not connected in any way. My mate of 20 + years saw this happen too. For nearly 5 minutes my compasses did this as the storm passed they swung back to normal. If I had not seen it happen with my own eyes I wouldn't think it was possible. I was only trolling around 4 to 6 knots so it didn't affect us much but I thought If I had been flying a plane at 150 knots and was following by my compass I would have been way off course by the time my compass went back to normal. I wouldn't even know that it had happened either. Luckily for me I still had a following sea and I got glimpses of the lighthouse several times trough the heavy rain. If I had been in a plane it would have been much harder to detect. BTW: I was not the only Charter Boat that this happened to that day 2 other boats that were fishing well East of me further up the Keys off Marathon Key also claimed it happened to them as the thunder storm passed by them. Just think how far off course you would be from where you thought you were after things went back to normal in a fast moving plane. All your Navigation would be useless because you are now nowhere near where you thought you are while you make any future course corrections. You would be in big trouble miles from where you thought you are and not even know it. Thats scary. Have a great weekend TJ and Please Keep "em Flying.
Many Fleet air arm pilots who flew the Grumman Avenger love it way better then the Fairey Barracuda but there's two stories of the FAA Avenger. 1. On 9th July 1944 a avenger turret gunner Fred Shirmer DSO manage to shot down a V-1 flying bomb at 700 yards making the only V-1 kill for the Grumman avenger. 2. In January 1945 during operation Meridian a FAA avenger shot down a nakajima ki-44 tojo in a low level dogfight over the jungles of Palegembang. Great work TJ3 very well done.
USN torpedoes, early in the war, were all defective, the Mark XIII aerial, the Mark XIV, and the Mark XV destroyer torpedoes. They ran deep, their magnetic exploder didn't work, and their contact exploder didn't work. The conditions for a "successful" aerial drop complicated the Mark XIII's use. Unfortunately, it took a year or more of use for USN higher-ups to acknowledge that something might be wrong with USN torpedoes and start the work of confirming it with tests and finding ways to fix the things. The info about improving drop conditions is interesting, news to me as my interest has inclined more toward submarines.
The refusal of the bureau of ordinance to acknowledge and fix the torpedos problems is one of the greatest tragedies of the war. So many thousands of unnecessary deaths due to faulty equipment. Even worse nobody even really got in trouble for it. I would have put the people responsible for the whole mess in the Frontline of the units storming the beaches of Okinawa for that.
A lot of Mark 13's alcohol was used to make hootch. Torpedo Juice was a very common thing, and it made a lot of ordinances not reach its intended targets.
Chichijima is about 150 miles northeast of Iwo Jima. A good description about the early American torpedo problems can be found in the "Looking Back" section of Russell S Crenshaw, Jrs book, "South Pacific Destroyer."
My father was a TBM pilot on the USS Enterprise and a member of the first squadron to fly low level attack missions from an aircraft carrier. He was in Night Torpedo Squadron 90 and flew a rare daylight mission on Chichi Jima and destroyed a Kamikaze plane on the ground with bombs there and damaged a ship with rockets anchored in the harbor.
@@MrSuzuki1187 It's good to hear from someone whose pappy fought in WWII, especially in the Navy, especially as a pilot, especially flying a Grumman-designed plane. My pappy was Company Commander of B Co, 164th Engineer Combat Battalion. He fought in the European Theater. His two key engagements were the Bulge and Remagen. I was a Marine in the early-mid '60s. No combat, but lots of grunt training, many ships (all sunk for target practice, sunk for reefs, sold for scrap or given to foreign countries).
Interesting bit of loosely related trivia from what I've read. The B-26 Marauder was the only Army Air Force plane that could drop torpedoes, and Midway was the only battle where they ever tried it. The results were not good.
My father served in the Navy. He was trained as tail-gunner in a "Dive Bomber" at the end of WWII. I remember he told me he was trained in Groton CT. I am wondering if it was a Devastator or Avenger. Dad served in the Korean conflict and was stationed at a Naval air-station on Grosse Isle (Michigan). During Korea, he was an aircraft mechanic on the same plane I believe. I wish Dad was still around to re-tell his stories.
Your videos are awesome and I watch them every day. However, here is a friendly advice: get a pop filter for your microphone. You often have loud "pfff" when you say words that begin in P. A pop filter would cost 10$ and fix this issue. Keep up the awesome work! :)
Our great uncle Richard Berryman was KIA over New Guinea, April 7, 1944. He left college to join the USMC, and was a Grumman Avenger radio operator/bombardier. Survival rates in his squadron were horrific.
One mistake about the Mark 13 torpedo. The ordinance department did Not go immediately to work on improving their’perfect weapon’ instead blaming the pilots for improper use… serious developmental review and changes did not occur until the well connected department received direct threats from Head of the Navy Admiral Ernest King.
That was the Mark 14 submarine torpedo you are talking about. It was sometime in late 1942 that the Government assigned Cal Tech to help improve the Mark 13 air launched torpedo. Cal Tech did many studies to determine the dynamics of how a torpedo reacted when entering the water. They launched dummy torpedoes off a dam in California with very clear water and used high speed cameras to film how the torpedoes interacted with surface of the water. Wikipedia has a whole page about it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_13_torpedo
I grew up on and near NAS Whidbey Island. One of the school board members and later county treasurer when I was a lad was Harry Farrier, WIA as a 17 year old radioman/gunner on the only surviving VT8 Avenger from Midway. He was an awesome individual, a gentleman and true hero who served his country for another 30 years through WW2, Korea and Viet Nam.
Thank you so much for this, & moreso, for helping our next generations appreciate what our "Greatest Generation" did for us. My Dad & 4 of 5 uncles served in WWII (the 5th in Korea), & their mothers, fathers, & sisters served & sacrificed so much at home. I chose a career to teach history to honor of them & all our generous ancestors who deserve so much of our humble gratitude.
Somebody needs to do the calculation of the negative effects caused directly by the bureaucrats who denied there were problems in the Mk XIII/XIV torpedoes. It will be huge, and should be displayed on every bureaucrat's (shiny-bottom) office.
My grandfather served on the famed Ticonderoga in wwii he loved that ship and along with being part of the Boston Police force and his grandchildren that ship was his pride he called torpedo planes "torpeckers" and the legend goes that the sailors would take the fuel from the torpedo mix it with 180 proof alcohol and drink it...
Congratulations. A very living and vivid testimony, helped by cgi, but filled with technical, and very precise datas. Not what we commonly see on YT.👌👍👍
I read an article in Florida while I was in the Navy, and it pointed out that reports from some that listened to radio traffic that 3 or more of Flight 19 had in fact crossed the coast but with it being dark and the weather making things bad that some or maybe all might be somewhere in the swamps in the Okeefenoky swamp south of Orlando, I also read about a group that used ultralights to fly over where they thought the path the planes might have flown but as far as I know they did not find any signs of wreckage. I know that all of the best training available only gets you so far, there is always an issue of 'dumb luck' for the lucky. and for those that do not make it home a list of unanswered questions and often many accusations due to frustration.
George got shot down twice The first time was during take off while under attack His airplane was hit in the engine and he had to ditch just after takeoff
Also for No.2 Bush was almost cannibalised (yes this is not a joke) by the Japanese garrison on the island who ate the livers of 4 of the captured crew from his 4 plane flight
I actually heard that it was worse than that. Though it could be embellished. I had heard in one story that on top of removing some organs, the Japanese commander had surgeons amputate limbs one at a time, but keep them alive so that they could remove more to eat later. They did this one at a time in front of all the other prisoners. The prisoners knew what was going on, but there was nothing they could do to stop it.
Wow, now know why Dad hated gooks so bad his entire life, was a radio man in newly formed night squadron of Avengers on Enterprise in late 44, ... bomb was dropped on his birthday while we geared up to invade Japan far as I know.
@@erichvonmanstein6876 it's been a long time since I have heard the full details, so I could be wrong. The prisoners couldn't escape, and they were kept in a beaten/starved state. Too weak to really fight back.. So instead they tried taunting the guards, doing things to try and make the guards kill them instead of being eaten slowly.
The TBFs that flew off of Midway were supposed to have joined USS Hornet ,unfortunately they arrived in San Francisco too late . These planes were flown to Oahu following a B25 then on to Midway
My father was a turret gunner on a TBF. He served in the Atlantic and Pacific off of CV13. Ditched once in the sea and lost his radioman. He never spoke much about the war. I am a Vietnam vet and I can understand why.
My grandfather flew one of these, I believe he said he flew in the Black Sea, possibly the Baltic? If anyone as any idea what Avenger’s did/who they taught in that theater, I’d love to know. Their turret gunner was named “Spider Legs” and the plane was called “the Gizmo”.
Been in one. They're really big. Without the bombs there's really nothing inside. I was surprised to see how small the rear turret was. Must've been a tight squeeze for a big guy.
I was in NYC last Christmas and Went to the Intrepid and I seen a avenger up close very impressive very big great museum I would recommend going to if you are in NYC I will definitely be going again
Outstanding video and presentation. How about one the following Luftwaffe aircraft: Fw 190 BF 109 HE 219 FW 189 HS 129 HE 162 DO 335 ME 410 For the "Things you did not know." Series Thanks
Sadly, not only the air drop torpedoes failed, so did the early sub launch torpedoes. They fixed it eventually but early on, it really handcuffed the effort of our Navy pilots and submariners.
Flight 19 is so bizarre. Everyone's compasses went out at the same time? No one tried ADF or other radio navigation? Ft. Lauderdale didn't have radar contact to vector them in?
Can you do a video on the USS Edsall please. My Great Grand Uncle served on it during WWII was among the many fallen sailors during the point blank broadside from the Japanese.
In the late 1960s I had a boss who'd pilotted Grumman Avengers on anti-submarine patrols with the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm in support of the artic supply convoys to the Russian port of Murmansk. He also took part in anti-shipping missions along the French coast immediately before and after D-Day. FAA Avengers rarely used torpedoes, British-built torpedoes didn't fit, instead they were used as 'straight' bombers or as rocket firing aircraft. He was a very modest man and made light of what must have been obvious dangers on such missions. The one thing, however, that was very clear was his high regard for the Avenger.
The flight leader of the 6 TBFs from Midway disobeyed orders to stay with the Marine dive bombers to have a coordinated strike to split the fighter and ship-based AAA defense.
By coincidence, last night our family had dinner at the Red Robin in Lakewood, Calif. I was surprised to see painted on one wall two large images of TBF Avengers. Why are they there? I have no idea, there was no Navy base in the city, although the former Naval Air Station Los Alamitos is about 5 miles away.
There is an interesting 6th fact about the TBF/M. It was classified until the 1990’s. The Interstate Aircraft Company in Chicago developed tge first anti-ship cruise missile. This program rushed the development of television. TV cameras in the nose of the missiles were guided by a TV monitor operated by a TBM crewman after the missile was dropped. I know this because a now deceased friend was an engineer on the project. He invited his former colleagues to his ranch in 1992. I was also invited.
Grumman's TBF/TBM? My father's brother-in-law took Dad up in one - in the Solomons over Japanese lines (and flak). So as kids we were always interested. Their ruggedness maybe part of the reason I am here. Monogram did an excellent kit-set. And torpedoes? Torpedoes are complex weapons - the price of an apartment maybe? But two years to sort out the Mark 13 in time of war? How far was it a case of monopoly politics - a turf-war with Navy bosses? Why were they so slow to believe the pilots? Could they have copied the Long Lance?
turf war with the bean counters of the Navy. specifically the Bureau of Naval Ordinance. they knew better than the grunts. so well they didn't even want to spend the money to test their theories
The drop height sounded high so did a little look up: "..., the Mk XIII served as the United States' standard aerial torpedo in World War II. Thirteen feet long and 22.4 inches in diameter, a combat-ready Mk XIII weighed about 2,200 lbs, including 600 lbs of Torpex high explosive. In the water, it traveled at 33.5 knots (39 mph) to a maximum distance of 6,300 yards, and the flow of water turned an impeller beneath the nose, which armed the firing mechanism. Other countries' aerial torpedoes tended to be smaller and lighter than the Mk XIII, allowing them to be dropped at a higher altitude and airspeed. If dropped from a height of greater than 50 feet or at an airspeed faster than 110 knots (126 mph), the early versions of the Mk XIII tended to break up." So, where does the 200 feet (61 m) come in?
12:01)The island was a communications center. In "Flags of Our Fathers", it was stated that 2 of the IJN stationed there were born in the US. If Pres. Bush was captured, he would have eaten. 8 aircrew POWs were murdered. 14:15)Another mystery. After Flight 19 disappeared, an officer was putting together a rescue crew. He saw a "missing" man.The EM was close to discharge, did not need the air hours and was not feeling well. A doctor excused him.The Avengers were marked down as having full crews.
i went aboard the uss coral sea aircraft carrier april 1968 before my boarding about a year before my boarding they used that plane or one close to it for infantry close air support dam good plane at the time for it's
No bodies, no wreckage ever found or recovered,not even a life raft, or personal effects, nothing. I still say Flight 19 flew into a time warp portal and went into another dimension. As for the Martin Mariner, I read articles that stated the Mariner was nicknamed The Flying Gas Tank,and easily prone to exploding in midair shortly after take off, totally disintegrating the plane,all its contents, including aircrew, pilots.
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Why don't you cover the Spitfire or the Hurricane. I'm sure their's some fun stories involving those planes.
@@brokenbridge6316 on my list!
I was wondering what you used to create the videos . I dont think there is any specific game that has these graphics and plane content that you could have used to create you r videos
My Grandfather was a tail gunner in one of these planes. I just recently learned that he wanted to fly, but was rejected because he wore glasses. So the Marine Corps eventually settled with him being a gunner. He never spoke of his tales, but a recent discovery of letters is giving me an insite on his experience.
Feel free to email them to me :) would love to read them!
Email me too...or post then if they're not personal
Always enjoy hearing stories of zipper heads being shooted up by tailgunners. I say that because of the war crimes that we're committed against fellow Americans. Something this video did not speak about was that the people who were captured with George Bush was shot down or put on an island and some of them were eaten by the zip heads.
By that I mean the people that were captured when George Bushs plane was shot up. Not that he was captured.
@@TJ3 I'll photograph the few I can read and some articles with them. He was quite the writer, some contain upwards of 4 pages with writting on both sides. It's a lot.
My favorite is he ends one letter with how the .45 caliber revolver can 'blow a mans head off at 600 yards' and at close range 'blow a hole so big you could fit your head inside.'
Important detail for the crucial Battle of Midway:
Don't know if this relates to the Avenger and B-26 torpedo attacks. But as for the Devastators... while they were being annihilated by the Zeros flying CAP, the Dauntless SBDs were about to inflict the most decisive 5 minutes in military history, mortally damaging 3 Japanese fleet carriers. If the Devastators hadn't drawn the CAP down, the battle could have gone very differently.
The TBD aircrews were massacred; but their sacrifice may have won the battle that marked the turning point of the Pacific war, and the practical end of Japanese naval air power. They accomplished their mission with great success, at very great personal cost, and should be considered heroes.
My 6th grade teacher was an Avenger pilot during the war he flew off the carrier San Jacinto he was in the same squadron as President Bush. RIP Mr Morgan.
Now wait, to be accurate, these planes were supposed to have fighter planes to assist, but due to poor planning, or miscommunication, or whatever, they went in anyway you try to complete their mission, knowing full well that without the fighter plane they were basically committing suicide runs. Bravery like that was uncommonly common during WWII, but needs to be pointed out
My father (a pilot of TBFs) said that the most torpedo attacks by any surviving pilot was 3. A third of his squadron died.
Crazy
That’s probably true. But not for the obvious reason. For being the US’s primary torpedo plane, by far most of their missions were not torpedo missions. The Avenger had an amazing payload and ordinance capacity when used as a level bomber for ground attack. It could get airborne with a full bay of bombs. plus two more bombs and six rockets on the wings. Or it could carry a dozen depth charges for sub hunting. Torpedoes were really just for the heavier Japanese warships. And they didn’t show up that often. We saw a similar evolution with Destroyers. By 1944 most US destroyers we’re having one of their 2 torpedo batteries removed and replaced by more AA guns. There just weren’t enough targets for torpedoes. And what targets there were, the subs were handling before the destroyers or Avengers got involved.
@@andrewtaylor940 Excellent summary of what happened. I came here to add essentially the same paragraph. Guys like us have to spread the facts about history less we lose it all.
My hat is off to your dad. They suffered greatly but were heroes with fortitude. A third of your group killed is a mental blow to the survivors. Surviving three torpedo attacks must be a feat. At Midway, just one was about impossible.
Thanks for sharing your dad's real life experience. Too bad some zoomer had to play google professor.
G'day,
Yay Team !
That sounds a lot like RAF Coastal Command, making Torpedo Attacks in Bristol Blenheims out of England onto German Convoys hugging the Norwegian, Danish, Dutch, Belgian, French and Spanish Coasts....
The USAAC's 8th AF Bomber Command regarded 25 Missions as constituting a Tour.
US Bomber Aircrew flew
1
Tour...& then
Went
Home...
RAF, RAAF, RNZAF, RCAF, RSAAF Bomber Command Aircrews had to fly 2 Tours of 30 Missions, with a 3rd Tour of 20 - and 6 months Instructing after 1 month Leave following each Tour.
Coastal Command Torpedo Attack Aircrew who came back from
THREE
Operational
Torpedo Runs were
Sent back down the
Lines..., to
Instruct for half a year
Before going out to get closely
Shot
At,
AGAIN...
German
FLiegerenAbwherKannonaden
Was
ALWAYS so
Wonderfully
Bloody
ACCURATE...
Y'see...
Such is life,
Have a good one...
Stay safe.
;-p
Ciao !
About the 6 TBF Avengers at Midway. They were the first 6 production planes flown almost directly from the factory. They were supposed to be aboard USS Hornet. But they missed the rendezvous, so Nimitz sent them direct to Midway. The crews flying them that day really did not have anywhere near the prep or experience with the planes that they should have. Plus you still had early war US torpedoes, which tended to fail.
From the book “Fly Boys”, a Japanese soldier witnessed Bush’s crash landing. When Bush decided to row out to sea vice go toward the island (pilots knew being captured was dangerous), the soldier felt he made the right choice since he would have be executed and the insane Japanese Commander would have eaten Bush’s liver. 😮
I read that book in 7th grade
It was really good
4:16 The land based TBFs were part of Torpedo 8. The TBFs had not yet been certified for carrier operations with the squadron but the were part of the transition of VT-8 from the TBD to the TBF.
The Bureau of Ordinance was all but criminal with the very under tested torpedoes for the bombers & the submarines
The reports of failures are exaggerated by commanders continuing to use them incorrectly and failure to train their crew to ensure they are properly maintained
@@nip3004 That might be partially true but there many issues with US torpedoes. Things were not improved until 1943
@@alexius23... it wasn't true at all it was just part of the bs excuses they gave
@@nip3004 The Bureau did test the “great” torpedo. The tests were limited in scope. During the post WWI years the military budget was bare bones. The Bureau didn’t give enough test.
The Royal Navy & the Kriegsmarine had both tested similar torpedoes & both gave up on the design
@@alexius23 what's your point?
Great video and accurate depiction of the problems associated with the Grumman TBF Avenger: Tactics and the dreadful performnce of the early MK-13 torpedo. I began working at Grumman Aircraft in Bethpage, Long Island NY as an apprentice engineer in the summer of 1957 and during the next 4 summers while studying engineering at Pratt Institute. I went on to earn an MS in Engineering at Lehigh and was hired as an engineer in 1962, working on the A-6 Intruder. Grumman was affectionately known as the Grumman "Iron Works" for the reliability and durability of their aircraft.
I love the Avenger! It's crazy how big it was being powered by just one engine.
Great video TJ! Keep it up
Thanks a ton!
That was a very good video.
I saw one at an air show 30 years ago, they had stairs set up so you could peek into the cockpit.
The AD-1 Skyraider was as big or bigger, single-seat and carried a heavier bomb load than the B-17 heavy bomber.
Did you know that they made a COD (Carrier Onboard Delivery) version that carried seven passengers. (would make a great private own aircraft don't you think?)
@@PaulP999 I didn't know that, awesome! And yeah that would make a really cool privately owned aircraft!!
If I remember, the mk 14 torpedo, which was the variant of the mk13 used on submarines and destroyers. also had a lot of the same issues, causing many submarines that relied on them to become frustrated when most of the torpedos ran under the target or refused to explode on target. The people who developed the mk 14 should have been fired or jailed when they refused to say anything was wrong with it even when proof was provided and said it was the crews fault for not using it correctly. They would have threatened jail time for crews who tampered with the torpedos to hot fix the issues it had.
The isolationism of the 30’s resulted in many weapons systems being developed with minimal resources. The Torpedo was never tested with actual warheads due to cost constraints.
@@brookeshenfield7156 Not so much the isolationism as it was the Great Depression making budgets incredibly small, which meant testing was deemed financially unfeasible
Or given enough time to test them?? Cmon bro
At Midway they flew without fighter cover. No wonder their losses were high. Even though the TBF was a good plane, it was still helpless against determined fighter opposition. In my opinion, sending them to fight the Kido Butai without any fighter support was criminal folly.
On the other hand, those Brewster Buffalos and F4F Wildcats wouldn't have been much help against AA from the ships. And as the early dogfights with Zeroes proved, not much help against those either. It would take more experience for the Navy pilots to learn to go "gun to gun" against the Zeke, which allowed them to finally get ahead with the F4F and F6F 'cats.
The "Miracle of Midway" was that almost every error made by the Japanese cost them dearly while the American errors worked in their favor. The torpedo bombers arrived alone, and most were shot down. But they pulled the Japanese fighters down to wave top level just before the dive bombers arrived. Had the dive bombers, fighters, and torpedo bombers arrived simultaneously, the battle would have played out differently.
Something I have to point out about the Battle of Midway and anti-aircraft fire from the Japanese Navy, is how singularly ineffective it was. Only one SBD Dauntless was shot down that we know of by anti-aircraft fire during any of the attacks, although they might have gotten some of the other types and I haven't heard of it.
But their Combat Air Patrols had been extremely effective.
Also, the staggered attacks from both Midway and the carriers constantly prevented the Japanese Navy from being able to organize their second strike in addition to the IJN errors made.
It really did all shake out in our favor.
Awesome work on keeping history alive. You all keep raising the bar, well done!!
I finally saw one of these in person at Oshkosh Air Venture last year (2022). I knew they were big planes, but I didn’t realize how massive they actually were until I was standing next to one.
Important notes - 1) Totally sorry about the text glitch at about 2:55. Don't know how I missed it. Ignore that, sorry I'm not perfect. Haha. 2) Before you guys tell me that George Bush is a well known story, yes, I know that many of you already knew that. But I wanted to include it because it is an important story and people who are not serious history buffs already may not yet know about it. 3) I know some of you would prefer MPH instead of KPH, however, the studies that I was quoting performed the measurements in KPH, so I did the same when I took their results. Thanks everyone!
i did not know this
Two things, TJ...
1 Could you pin your important comments so they appear first in the comment section?
2 I don't think it's well known internationally that George Bush Sr. was an Avenger pilot. When I tell the story to people then they are always surprised that Bush Sr. was a pilot that fought and was shot down in WW2.
Love your stuff, TJ
A lot of international channels will list both, they'll say 100mph/160kmh, etc.
If you have the opportunity, see one in person. They are an absolutely huge warbird.
AND it wasn't just the Mk.13. All of our torpedoes suffered badly. Submarines had a few "Boomerangs" roll back in on them.
My brother was the radioman/stinger gunner and flew off the USS Randolph. As an aside the Avengers that flew from Midway were the first TBF’s assigned to Torpedo Eight. They arrived at Pearl Harbor too late to be loaded aboard ship and were sent to Midway for the duration of the battle.
Off of the USS Hornet
TJ, you should do a series on the unexplained weirdy occurrences,ship,plane, people dissappearances in The Bermuda Triangle.
I want to add something about my uncle. He flew with Torpedo Squadron 8 off the Bunker Hill. They replaced the original TS 8 that was lost from the USS Hornet where there was only one survivor, George Gay. My uncle was lead bombardier of CV17. He joined the Navy at age 32 right after the attack on Pearl Harbor.
My uncle was a gunner on an Avenger. He flew from the USS Bunker Hill.
If I'm not mistaken, we had no Avengers flying from our carriers at the battle of Midway. It was Devastators from the carriers that were wiped out. But thanks for reminding me of the earliest Avengers deployed from the air bases on Midway.
There's a very important point about those Avengers that he omits and one he gets wrong.
First off is what he got wrong, the Avengers flying from Midway Island, six, five of which were shot down, weren't from some separate unit that was formed on the island or sent there, they were actually planes and crews from Torpedo Squadron 8 from the Hornet and as such the one plane that survived the battle with two crewmen still alive means that Ensign George Gay was not the sole survivor of Torpedo Squadron 8, that's been a long standing WW2 myth started by John Ford when he made the film of them taking off from the Hornet with none to return and actually perpetrated throughout the years by George Gay himself by always claiming to be the sole survivor of Torpedo Squadron 8, which he really shouldn't have done out of respect for his two squadron mates and what they'd gone through, George Gay was simply the sole survivor of Torpedo Squadron 8 that took off from the Hornet, here's the actual story about what happened.
When the Hornet left the east coast from Norfolk it'd just received 6 new Avengers that were assigned to Torpedo Squadron 8 but being brand new planes there were some maintenance issues that had to be addressed that meant they wouldn't be ready for a couple of days, so it was decided to leave them and their crews behind and that when they were ready they'd just fly straight from the west coast to Midway and at their first opportunity would fly to the Hornet when it's position was verified, don't forget the task force was operating under radio silence in an attempt to ambush the Japanese that was known to be heading for Midway, the 6 Avengers were escorted by at least one PBY that flew lead to Midway, the way things worked out they never had a chance to go to the Hornet before the Japanese task force was located so they simply launched their attack from Midway itself, five of the six were shot down in the battle and without any Devistators from the Hornet having survived the battle the surviving Avenger had no one to lead it back to the Hornet so it limped back to Midway Island, their plane was so shot up that Admiral Nimitz called their making it back to Midway "the greatest feat in the history of Naval aviation".
I can't remember both of their names but one of the crewmen either the pilot or the bombardier had the last name of Fernier (I only remember that because there's a family lives up the road from me with the same last name, and here's one for you, they're relations to Alice Cooper whose real last name is Fernier and used to spend summers with them in my hometown in Pennsylvania when he was a kid, just an additional fun fact for you), anyways sometime in the 1950's when George Gay's book "Sole Survivor" was published about his experiences Fernier and the other survivor from his plane were sitting in the back of an auditorium where Gay gave a press conference for the books release, when it was over a reporter who was walking out saw Fernier and the other guy sitting there in the back and when he ask who they were one of them said "We're the other two sole survivor's".
@@dukecraig2402 Wow. Thanks very much for the real His-story of torpedo squadron 8. It makes sense because these were brand new planes just getting deployed during the first year of the Pacific war against Japan. I can imagine that the United states were absolutely scrambling to get whatever they could out to the front lines against the(at that time)seemingly powerful Japanese naval forces.
The only sole survivor from the Hornet TBD's was LT George Gay, who was shot down, but eventually rescued.
@@dukecraig2402 the six Avengers were tasked to USS Hornet and VT-8, they had nothing to do with VT-6 and USS Enterprise.
Otherwise, I like your write-up on the situation.
@@Jamesbrown-xi5ih
Yea after writing it I edited it to say Hornet instead of Enterprise but I didn't get all of them, it's hard to do on a phone since you can only see a little bit of what you've written instead of everything at once, scrolling through I missed a couple, if you notice I'd already changed some to Hornet.
My father was assigned to one on the USS Franklin CV-13.
My father was a TBM pilot on the USS Enterprise, CV-6, as a member of the very first squadron to fly low level attack missions from an aircraft carrier at night and or in bad weather. He was in Night Torpedo Squadron 90. His airplane was equipped with search and attack radar, had a radar altimeter, electronic counter measures gear (ECM), radar detection gear that could detect and home in on another airplane's radar. Just amazing technology for his time flying the Avenger late 1944-to May 1945.
I thought the outdated TBMs were pulled from service after Midway? Did you mean TBFs?
@@ggsmith48906 the TBD-1 Devastator was pulled from service after Midway, the TBF was designed and built by Grumman, but due to the demand for as many F6F Hellcats as could be built, they were instead often built by General Motors as the TBM.
It's the same aircraft just built by a different company at a different Factory.
Side note, the TBD Devastator gets a lot of bad press for its performance at Midway, but that's unfair considering its performance at the Battle of Coral Sea.
And also to note that the Avenger didn't fare any better without fighter cover. It's just that the TBDs had the bad luck.
TJ , I've said it once and I'll say it again. I love this series as I call it. You had me as a subscriber from the start . The channel has grown and matured by leaps and bounds. Keep up the amazing work and hope you have an awesome day . 👍
Thank you!!
My favorite Naval Aircraft of WW2. I've loved it since 5th grade. Beautiful airplane.
Mine too
Another Great video TJ. You make Fridays even better. Can't wait to see what you have instore for us next week. As you know I live in the Keys and have flown over them and the Bahamas many times they look really similar from the air the only real difference is the Keys are all connected by a single road (That used to be a railroad track) that runs through them from the mainland to Key West. Most of the islands in the Bahamas aren't connected by a road. As you know I'm a retired Captain one day I was sportfishing in 600 feet of water South of a Lighthouse on the reef. Inside the reef the water is only 45 feet deep at it's deepest. We went through a sudden summer thunderstorm and heavy rain. Due to the lightening I shut down all my electronics and pulled their antennas down leaving me only the fathometer and 2 compasses. When I looked at the compasses they were both slowly spinning I was Trolling West with a following sea so I knew I was not changing course and at time. I could see the light house due North of me but the compasses both said I was North of the light house Not South. Thats impossible because I still had 600 feet of water under my boat. There was nothing metal by my compasses one was up in the flying bridge with me and the other compass was down below in my cabin. They are not connected in any way. My mate of 20 + years saw this happen too. For nearly 5 minutes my compasses did this as the storm passed they swung back to normal. If I had not seen it happen with my own eyes I wouldn't think it was possible. I was only trolling around 4 to 6 knots so it didn't affect us much but I thought If I had been flying a plane at 150 knots and was following by my compass I would have been way off course by the time my compass went back to normal. I wouldn't even know that it had happened either. Luckily for me I still had a following sea and I got glimpses of the lighthouse several times trough the heavy rain. If I had been in a plane it would have been much harder to detect. BTW: I was not the only Charter Boat that this happened to that day 2 other boats that were fishing well East of me further up the Keys off Marathon Key also claimed it happened to them as the thunder storm passed by them. Just think how far off course you would be from where you thought you were after things went back to normal in a fast moving plane. All your Navigation would be useless because you are now nowhere near where you thought you are while you make any future course corrections. You would be in big trouble miles from where you thought you are and not even know it. Thats scary. Have a great weekend TJ and Please Keep "em Flying.
Wow! That is very cool! Thanks for sharing :)
Many Fleet air arm pilots who flew the Grumman Avenger love it way better then the Fairey Barracuda but there's two stories of the FAA Avenger.
1. On 9th July 1944 a avenger turret gunner Fred Shirmer DSO manage to shot down a V-1 flying bomb at 700 yards making the only V-1 kill for the Grumman avenger.
2. In January 1945 during operation Meridian a FAA avenger shot down a nakajima ki-44 tojo in a low level dogfight over the jungles of Palegembang.
Great work TJ3 very well done.
My Grandfather lost His step Brother William C. Lawe at midway as a crew member of one of them.
USN torpedoes, early in the war, were all defective, the Mark XIII aerial, the Mark XIV, and the Mark XV destroyer torpedoes. They ran deep, their magnetic exploder didn't work, and their contact exploder didn't work. The conditions for a "successful" aerial drop complicated the Mark XIII's use. Unfortunately, it took a year or more of use for USN higher-ups to acknowledge that something might be wrong with USN torpedoes and start the work of confirming it with tests and finding ways to fix the things. The info about improving drop conditions is interesting, news to me as my interest has inclined more toward submarines.
The refusal of the bureau of ordinance to acknowledge and fix the torpedos problems is one of the greatest tragedies of the war. So many thousands of unnecessary deaths due to faulty equipment. Even worse nobody even really got in trouble for it. I would have put the people responsible for the whole mess in the Frontline of the units storming the beaches of Okinawa for that.
Another amazing video! The quality and frequency of your videos is extremely impressive. Keep up the good work, and stay awesome TJ
Thanks a ton!
Great video; loved it. My dad was an inspector at the Baltimore GM plant where the TMB was built.
A lot of Mark 13's alcohol was used to make hootch. Torpedo Juice was a very common thing, and it made a lot of ordinances not reach its intended targets.
My Uncle Dave flew one in WW2. RIP Dave.
Chichijima is about 150 miles northeast of Iwo Jima. A good description about the early American torpedo problems can be found in the "Looking Back" section of Russell S Crenshaw, Jrs book, "South Pacific Destroyer."
My father was a TBM pilot on the USS Enterprise and a member of the first squadron to fly low level attack missions from an aircraft carrier. He was in Night Torpedo Squadron 90 and flew a rare daylight mission on Chichi Jima and destroyed a Kamikaze plane on the ground with bombs there and damaged a ship with rockets anchored in the harbor.
@@MrSuzuki1187 It's good to hear from someone whose pappy fought in WWII, especially in the Navy, especially as a pilot, especially flying a Grumman-designed plane. My pappy was Company Commander of B Co, 164th Engineer Combat Battalion. He fought in the European Theater. His two key engagements were the Bulge and Remagen. I was a Marine in the early-mid '60s. No combat, but lots of grunt training, many ships (all sunk for target practice, sunk for reefs, sold for scrap or given to foreign countries).
Interesting bit of loosely related trivia from what I've read. The B-26 Marauder was the only Army Air Force plane that could drop torpedoes, and Midway was the only battle where they ever tried it. The results were not good.
My father served in the Navy. He was trained as tail-gunner in a "Dive Bomber" at the end of WWII. I remember he told me he was trained in Groton CT. I am wondering if it was a Devastator or Avenger. Dad served in the Korean conflict and was stationed at a Naval air-station on Grosse Isle (Michigan). During Korea, he was an aircraft mechanic on the same plane I believe. I wish Dad was still around to re-tell his stories.
It's always a wonderful day when TJ uploads. Everything is pure gold.
It's a wonderful day when I get comments like this! Thanks :)
@@TJ3 anytime ;)
Your videos are awesome and I watch them every day. However, here is a friendly advice: get a pop filter for your microphone. You often have loud "pfff" when you say words that begin in P. A pop filter would cost 10$ and fix this issue. Keep up the awesome work! :)
The TBF/TBM Avenger is hands-down my favorite aircraft used during WW2. The B-17 Flying Fortress comes in at a close second.
Our great uncle Richard Berryman was KIA over New Guinea, April 7, 1944.
He left college to join the USMC, and was a Grumman Avenger radio operator/bombardier.
Survival rates in his squadron were horrific.
As usual an excellent video with superb graphics and narration.😁
One mistake about the Mark 13 torpedo. The ordinance department did Not go immediately to work on improving their’perfect weapon’ instead blaming the pilots for improper use… serious developmental review and changes did not occur until the well connected department received direct threats from Head of the Navy Admiral Ernest King.
That was the Mark 14 submarine torpedo you are talking about. It was sometime in late 1942 that the Government assigned Cal Tech to help improve the Mark 13 air launched torpedo. Cal Tech did many studies to determine the dynamics of how a torpedo reacted when entering the water. They launched dummy torpedoes off a dam in California with very clear water and used high speed cameras to film how the torpedoes interacted with surface of the water. Wikipedia has a whole page about it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_13_torpedo
I grew up on and near NAS Whidbey Island. One of the school board members and later county treasurer when I was a lad was Harry Farrier, WIA as a 17 year old radioman/gunner on the only surviving VT8 Avenger from Midway. He was an awesome individual, a gentleman and true hero who served his country for another 30 years through WW2, Korea and Viet Nam.
Always good to see a tj video please do one about the v1 flying bomb ace ❤
Thank you so much for this, & moreso, for helping our next generations appreciate what our "Greatest Generation" did for us. My Dad & 4 of 5 uncles served in WWII (the 5th in Korea), & their mothers, fathers, & sisters served & sacrificed so much at home. I chose a career to teach history to honor of them & all our generous ancestors who deserve so much of our humble gratitude.
Somebody needs to do the calculation of the negative effects caused directly by the bureaucrats who denied there were problems in the Mk XIII/XIV torpedoes.
It will be huge, and should be displayed on every bureaucrat's (shiny-bottom) office.
My grandfather served on the famed Ticonderoga in wwii he loved that ship and along with being part of the Boston Police force and his grandchildren that ship was his pride he called torpedo planes "torpeckers" and the legend goes that the sailors would take the fuel from the torpedo mix it with 180 proof alcohol and drink it...
Congratulations. A very living and vivid testimony, helped by cgi, but filled with technical, and very precise datas. Not what we commonly see on YT.👌👍👍
At this point in the war the US torpedo was a mess. Only one in ten hit target. Some of the went round in a circle
Idea: a video about the Zondercommando Elbe and their futility in WW2.
I read an article in Florida while I was in the Navy, and it pointed out that reports from some that listened to radio traffic that 3 or more of Flight 19 had in fact crossed the coast but with it being dark and the weather making things bad that some or maybe all might be somewhere in the swamps in the Okeefenoky swamp south of Orlando, I also read about a group that used ultralights to fly over where they thought the path the planes might have flown but as far as I know they did not find any signs of wreckage. I know that all of the best training available only gets you so far, there is always an issue of 'dumb luck' for the lucky. and for those that do not make it home a list of unanswered questions and often many accusations due to frustration.
George got shot down twice The first time was during take off while under attack His airplane was hit in the engine and he had to ditch just after takeoff
Thank you for this very interesting video.
Actually the attacks were much slower than 280kph. The Devastators had to fly just above stall speed.
Also for No.2 Bush was almost cannibalised (yes this is not a joke) by the Japanese garrison on the island who ate the livers of 4 of the captured crew from his 4 plane flight
I actually heard that it was worse than that. Though it could be embellished. I had heard in one story that on top of removing some organs, the Japanese commander had surgeons amputate limbs one at a time, but keep them alive so that they could remove more to eat later. They did this one at a time in front of all the other prisoners. The prisoners knew what was going on, but there was nothing they could do to stop it.
Wow, now know why Dad hated gooks so bad his entire life, was a radio man in newly formed night squadron of Avengers on Enterprise in late 44, ... bomb was dropped on his birthday while we geared up to invade Japan far as I know.
@@macmcgee5116 time to revolt.
@@erichvonmanstein6876 it's been a long time since I have heard the full details, so I could be wrong. The prisoners couldn't escape, and they were kept in a beaten/starved state. Too weak to really fight back.. So instead they tried taunting the guards, doing things to try and make the guards kill them instead of being eaten slowly.
Amazing graphics. That sea looks real.
You dont get a sense of how big these are until you see them
Agreed
Please do a video on the Wildcat/Hellcat, IJA fighters, the Betty Bomber or the He-111.
The TBFs that flew off of Midway were supposed to have joined USS Hornet ,unfortunately they arrived in San Francisco too late . These planes were flown to Oahu following a B25 then on to Midway
Those video-game torpedo hits are nothing like the real life torpedo hits.
To complete the set, could you do the SB2C Helldiver next?
I'd definitely like to!
Yes please🙏
The Mark 14 of airplanes.
The prototype was rolled out on the 7th December 1941 after pearl harbor attack, and was named by the workers not the navy or Royal navy heads
I love the videos and history thanks TJ3! BTW, @11:00 the Avenger is torpedoing an American flagged ship, lol.
My father was a turret gunner on a TBF. He served in the Atlantic and Pacific off of CV13. Ditched once in the sea and lost his radioman. He never spoke much about the war. I am a Vietnam vet and I can understand why.
I'm guessing that the take off/landing postion for the tail gunner is behind the pilot .
Friendly Fire at 10:50 :D
My fav plane in the War. If I was going to serve in a plane I would have wanted to fly in one of these.
My grandfather flew one of these, I believe he said he flew in the Black Sea, possibly the Baltic? If anyone as any idea what Avenger’s did/who they taught in that theater, I’d love to know. Their turret gunner was named “Spider Legs” and the plane was called “the Gizmo”.
Not a lot of people know that about HW Bush.👍
Actually its pretty common knowledge
VT-8 and VT-6 may have been bloodied at Midway but they continued the War with TBMs.
Can you cover the f6f hellcat please
Been in one. They're really big. Without the bombs there's really nothing inside. I was surprised to see how small the rear turret was. Must've been a tight squeeze for a big guy.
I was in NYC last Christmas and Went to the Intrepid and I seen a avenger up close very impressive very big great museum I would recommend going to if you are in NYC I will definitely be going again
Outstanding video and presentation.
How about one the following Luftwaffe aircraft:
Fw 190
BF 109
HE 219
FW 189
HS 129
HE 162
DO 335
ME 410
For the "Things you did not know." Series
Thanks
they took numerous losses at Midway
Sadly, not only the air drop torpedoes failed, so did the early sub launch torpedoes. They fixed it eventually but early on, it really handcuffed the effort of our Navy pilots and submariners.
Flight 19 is so bizarre. Everyone's compasses went out at the same time? No one tried ADF or other radio navigation? Ft. Lauderdale didn't have radar contact to vector them in?
It would a great addition. What a challenging mission too! We have the Marianna’s map. We need pacific theater planes and ships.
Very nice video!
Can you do a video on the USS Edsall please. My Great Grand Uncle served on it during WWII was among the many fallen sailors during the point blank broadside from the Japanese.
No 6. The Avenger helped the US Navy develop its night carrier doctrine.
In the late 1960s I had a boss who'd pilotted Grumman Avengers on anti-submarine patrols with the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm in support of the artic supply convoys to the Russian port of Murmansk. He also took part in anti-shipping missions along the French coast immediately before and after D-Day. FAA Avengers rarely used torpedoes, British-built torpedoes didn't fit, instead they were used as 'straight' bombers or as rocket firing aircraft. He was a very modest man and made light of what must have been obvious dangers on such missions. The one thing, however, that was very clear was his high regard for the Avenger.
A true workhorse & great airplane! 🇺🇸
The flight leader of the 6 TBFs from Midway disobeyed orders to stay with the Marine dive bombers to have a coordinated strike to split the fighter and ship-based AAA defense.
By coincidence, last night our family had dinner at the Red Robin in Lakewood, Calif. I was surprised to see painted on one wall two large images of TBF Avengers. Why are they there? I have no idea, there was no Navy base in the city, although the former Naval Air Station Los Alamitos is about 5 miles away.
There is an interesting 6th fact about the TBF/M. It was classified until the 1990’s. The Interstate Aircraft Company in Chicago developed tge first anti-ship cruise missile. This program rushed the development of television. TV cameras in the nose of the missiles were guided by a TV monitor operated by a TBM crewman after the missile was dropped. I know this because a now deceased friend was an engineer on the project. He invited his former colleagues to his ranch in 1992. I was also invited.
My Favorite WWII Plane! ⚓
Thank you so much for this information! On the topic of the pacific, can you do a video on a pilot who lived near me; Dean “Diz” Laird?
Grumman's TBF/TBM? My father's brother-in-law took Dad up in one - in the Solomons over Japanese lines (and flak). So as kids we were always interested. Their ruggedness maybe part of the reason I am here. Monogram did an excellent kit-set.
And torpedoes?
Torpedoes are complex weapons - the price of an apartment maybe? But two years to sort out the Mark 13 in time of war? How far was it a case of monopoly politics - a turf-war with Navy bosses? Why were they so slow to believe the pilots? Could they have copied the Long Lance?
turf war with the bean counters of the Navy. specifically the Bureau of Naval Ordinance. they knew better than the grunts. so well they didn't even want to spend the money to test their theories
The drop height sounded high so did a little look up:
"..., the Mk XIII served as the United States' standard aerial torpedo in World War II. Thirteen feet long and 22.4 inches in diameter, a combat-ready Mk XIII weighed about 2,200 lbs, including 600 lbs of Torpex high explosive. In the water, it traveled at 33.5 knots (39 mph) to a maximum distance of 6,300 yards, and the flow of water turned an impeller beneath the nose, which armed the firing mechanism. Other countries' aerial torpedoes tended to be smaller and lighter than the Mk XIII, allowing them to be dropped at a higher altitude and airspeed. If dropped from a height of greater than 50 feet or at an airspeed faster than 110 knots (126 mph), the early versions of the Mk XIII tended to break up."
So, where does the 200 feet (61 m) come in?
12:01)The island was a communications center. In "Flags of Our Fathers", it was stated that 2 of the IJN stationed there were born in the US. If Pres. Bush was captured, he would have eaten. 8 aircrew POWs were murdered.
14:15)Another mystery. After Flight 19 disappeared, an officer was putting together a rescue crew. He saw a "missing" man.The EM was close to discharge, did not need the air hours and was not feeling well. A doctor excused him.The Avengers were marked down as having full crews.
HI. Great story and animation. What software did you use?
@11:00 ah the famous moment when the tide of war turned in the pacific... when an avenger torpedoed a liberty ship
can you tell the story of the bf 109 that split thru the tail of a b-17
They call that area "the devil's triangle" for that very reason!!
i went aboard the uss coral sea aircraft carrier april 1968 before my boarding about a year before my boarding they used that plane or one close to it for infantry close air support dam good plane at the time for it's
No bodies, no wreckage ever found or recovered,not even a life raft, or personal effects, nothing. I still say Flight 19 flew into a time warp portal and went into another dimension. As for the Martin Mariner, I read articles that stated the Mariner was nicknamed The Flying Gas Tank,and easily prone to exploding in midair shortly after take off, totally disintegrating the plane,all its contents, including aircrew, pilots.