"My Königs are going to come one day!" I want this inscribed on my gravestone. I ordered last February, and they're still not here yet. At least from this review, I won't be disappointed when I finally get them.
My understanding that that they were not being produced until June - anything ordered before that point was pre-order. They are catching up with orders I believe.
scholagladiatoria Just got the info that I'm getting them next shipment. My wait is near its end. Apparently the order was cancelled after an overload issue with the system. The hype was unreal back then.
I've had the Koning for a while now... They are okay, but I'm still looking for that Holy Grail... I certainly like the mobility they offer, but I think they are ideally suited to be paired with ring guards for the longsword. I think we will still see broken fingers with Koning. Also, they have issues for people with large hands. Over time the leather on mine has gotten a few holes, but they have held up okay. I view them as really good for light sparring, but I'm not sure I'd be willing to take them to a tournament right now. All in all, they are a move in the right direction, but the grail is still not found. I'm glad to see they are continuing to work to improve the quality.
For now I'd default to standby design of mitten gloves, because I don't have a feder with a ring guard. I'd 100% wear Koning if I had that. I'm also considering getting some hoof gloves, because I value my ability to change grip, which is my biggest complaint about the mitten styles. I love the Koning gloves, but I love my fingers more.. and that will likely forever be the downside of fingered gloves, because that mobility will also means your fingers can flex in unintended ways... Also, for people who are really good at not having their hands hit, they are probably okay.
Medieval Review the new version are better for big hands, I had a very early preorder pair that were stolen and have worn the new ones, and I have giant hands.
So what you are saying is they need finger mobility limiting?, which does look like the pro gauntlet might achieve through clever articulation, obviously everyone is wondering how they will turn out. However I wonder if simple tension based limiters could achieve the same result on a glove like the koning. So high strength flexible rope/cable/tape in the correct places to stop movement in certain directions but keep the rest of the motion free. I doubt it would fully protect but it could limit the most probable breakage incidences. I only have Red Dragons atm and haven't experienced better gloves (other than some good steel gauntlets), so can't be sure how well this would work.
Thank you for making this video. It's so so so helpful to have an experienced fencer actually review gloves. Even though these might not get tons of views, please make more whenever you get the chance. That along with all types of gear. Actually it would be great if you went over all the pieces of gear you wear while sparring longswords, saber, ect.
A couple of notes: Mark I had cognac and burgundy colours. The change is that the outer leather has been made a bit thinner (for mobility), and the palm a bit thicker (for durability). Neatsfoot oil is the best thing I've found for breaking them in and softening the leather. I've been using Mark I gloves for six months or so now, and a few coats of neatsfoot oil have done wonders for the movement, along obviously with proper time to work them. There's also a full (and good) inner Kevlar layer. I took a strong thrust to the inside of the finger last weekend, and it was stopped before punching through my hands. I've had some seriously painful hits, normally when I get caught while halfswording (so the blow hits just one finger). Nothing broken yet, but it can hurt like a bastard.
I got a pair of these (after several months of waiting): - the protection is great - the thumb mobility is meh (it's difficult to thumb the blade) - having just one size is obviously an issue - one of the plates digs into my wrist sometimes - they are quite heavy - here and there between the layers there are thick stitchings and untrimmed pieces of material that are uncomfortable and add to the internal bulkiness - the internal material is quite abrasive on the knuckles. - but most of all, there's way way WAY too much material on the palm. There's the light soft leather you can see on the outside AND a padded glove beneath that. It's good to have padding between the hand and the plates, but on the palm it's just a nuisance. So, though they probably are indeed the best heavy gloves we have at the moment, they do have several issues.
For the first couple weeks of breaking mine in I had that problem with many of my knuckles. I wore thin gloves underneath my konings for that initial period of breaking in to avoid that problem, and now it's mostly gone. There's one or two knuckles that can get a little chafed by repeating certain actions, but I'm not feeling raw and worrying about blisters.
Not a HEMA guy but my experience as a former keen Long Distance Walker is that cotton inner socks(gloves) help. If, like me, you have Hairy Toes (yes, I'm a Hobbit) shaving the top of the toes is a massive help - so if you have even slight hairiness on the back of the fingers, knuckles, and/or hand try shaving the relevant area. Note that there are also products sold for Walking Boots that will speed Breaking In. I'd be cautious about using them on these gloves but if you have problems with Breaking In your gloves or feel the leather needs softening for other reasons (eg. avoiding blisters) they might be worth a look.
Yeah. I've had a pair of the gen 1's since Longpoint. They are my favorite glove right now. I'm not sure I'd recommend them to beginning fencers, especially if you have larger hands, but they are a great glove!
For me, a lot of it depends on your training environment. If you just need something basic to protect you from incidental hits in drills then I recommend Red Dragons, and we have a lot of students who are not particularly interested in competing. But, if you have ANY interest in tournament fighting, yet are still new enough that hard hand hits happen, then I recommend the Sparring Gloves, or maybe the SPES Heavies. I used to recommend Blacklance's for everything, but alas they don't exist anymore. I think Sparring Gloves have a large advantage over SPES, but they should be custom sized to get the full benefit of their coverage. Custom sizes can take time, maybe you can get SPES gloves faster... I don't know. I do have a number of SPES gloves at the school, some people like them (I don't). My backup tournament gloves are Sparring Gloves, I used them for a few years, they're great. I also have pre-orders of the Thokk gloves, and the ProGauntlet, so we'll see what happens there...
It's also a point to note that my gen 1 Koning's do have a manufacturing flaw. Anders pointed it out to me at Swordfish last year. He offered to get it fixed, but I don't want to be without them for long. I have large hands so the gloves DO bruise me if I get hit hard. Once they come out with a slightly larger size, I'm going to order another pair and send my old ones in to get fixed
Thanks, interesting stuff. I recognise that the Sparring Gloves are still in many ways the benchmark for tournament longsword gloves. Personally I have a pair of the SPES Heavies and literally cannot use them. I can't hold a sword properly with them, let alone fence properly. It seems that they either fit people or they don't and if they don't fit right then they don't work at all.
I only know one or two people who have made the SPES gloves work, but they are pretty good fencers. I think the Sparring Glove will continue to be the go-to glove for tournaments for a little while longer. It's also fairly easy to modify to greatly increase it's durability, that's what I did.
Matt, please keep an eye open for the thokks, they are planned to be a slimmer profile version of Koning's essential;ly, this may somewhat address the issue with the super wide wristpieces.
Yes I'll be very interested to see those when they come out. As with most gloves, my fear will be that they work for longsword or arming sword, but not for sabre, as we need to hold the sword in a different position with the thumb up.
Is the "Hulk-Smash"-Move actually allowed in Hema tournaments? or the "five point palm exploding heart technique" ? last time I used it I was accused of beeing a cheater as it's "not what liechtenauer would have done" :D
In the event that you needed them quickly, Baseball glove oil might be useful to break them in . Also, oiling the glove and rolling and tossing a ball (a relatively hard ball) from glove to glove. Its the first thing considered when you mentioned the break in period. Maybe it will help someone that's in a pinch to press them into service.
Hey Matt make sure to do a follow up video in a few months to a year. I've heard from quite a few people who have the version I Konig Gloves and they all had complaints about the durability, we would all love to see/hear how these improved versions hold up or if that is still an issue, cheers.
Matt, have you tried the 5-finger Polish Sparring Gloves? I just received mine and I've only used them so far in a few light sparring sessions with mixed weapons, but they seem to me to be on-par with the Konings for protection. They are also quicker to obtain and are made to your size -- my current problem with the Konings is that I have small hands and the "one size" Konings are just too large for me. I can put my hands in them and move them around, but in sparring they would fly off my hands, which, obviously, is not good.
`Great video, Matt! I'm going back to longsword after a long absence & I'm really pleased to hear that the Koning Gloves are holding up to their promise :) Getting cracked on the fingers is awful - investing in good safe gloves is something I'm happy to do. As an aside: How did medieval longsword fencers deal with the risks of hand injuries? They must have had a way to minimise the risk, or perhaps their more full understanding of the longsword techniques & training regimes took it into account... There's no way to answer those questions, btw, I'm thinking out loud but would love to hear your own thoughts on the matter.
Nice review, was thinking about getting a pair myself. On the stiffness issue, if it is just the leather, a balsam like Renapur or leather oil/conditioner would help immensely.
I had a pair of really nice Dainese motorcycle gloves that have all the same qualities as those but they had steel around the fingers instead of plastic.. plus they looked more form fitting to your hand.
Doreen Green I don't think motorcycle gloves would protect very well against impacts to the sides of the fingers. The reinforcements tend to be only along the knuckles, at least in the ones I own.
I'm curious if you've ever tried the Sparring Gloves (you're totally right on the name) newer 5-finger model. I got these a while back and I absolutely love them, but I don't see anyone else wearing them at tournaments or putting any reviews up online. They're custom fit, which is great for me because my fingers are way too long to use the original Konig (haven't tried 2nd gen). Even with my longer fingers, the Sparring Glove 5-fingers can fit into my Regenyei sabre without being locked into a hammer fist (still a bit tight). My only complaints are that it's a bit of a pain to get on and off (maybe fudge your wrist size a bit if you order them) and I'm worried about their longevity since the articulated plates and elastic are on the outside without being held together by such a nice leather layer as the Konigs. Can I get anyone's opinion who has tried these and maybe some answers to why they seem so rare in HEMA? Also, to Matt, have you ever considered these as opposed to the hoof or mitten Sparring Gloves?
Yes. A longer sword is of course advantageous. However, not all longsword systems were intended to be used with massive longswords that could not be practically worn as secondary weapons in war.
Thanks for this review. The Saint Mark website does not say anything about first or second generations. Do you know if any new orders will receive the second generation?
How easily can you raise your thumb while holding a sword in those gloves? Thinking of German techniques where you put your thumb on the base of the blade above the guard.
If they are anything like leather golf shoes i used to use the water protection shoe wax that really gets them soft with out having to do to much wearing them in around the house.
I liked the konning gloves originally. Would use my Clubs loaners when sparring. Till it took a good hit to where the thumb meets the hand in them ( the area inbetween the thumb and pointer finger). Was moderate sparring, was not pleasant at the time, and that night it swelled up and was killing me for a week or two. Im at 3 or 4 weeks since that hit, and I still feel this odd pain when thumbing the sword for Zwers etc.
would you be able to have a free floating plate on the bottom of the wrist to allow for the cuff to move inwards when needed whilst still having the large cuffs for wrist mobility & protection? , i merely thought of it as what i would do if i was making them as soon as you mentioned the problem.
I used to boffer for fitness (you can't really boffer for authentic technique). I got minor, tiny bruises and little scrapes all the time, and never cared much. But I was forced to quit when the tip of a padded-sword hit the tip of my pinky straight on. It bend my pinky in a weird way... and gave me a near lengthwise spiral of the proximal phalanx.
I have the Neyman Thokk gloves, they are what you're describing. I've had them for a couple months now and they work fine. Good protection, ok, but not great, mobility. They work well for longsword or any other open hilted weapon but don't work for saber, rapier, etc. Just remember if you do order from Neyman that they will quote you 30 days from order date as when your order will ship, the reality is about 5 months.
hmmm they are definitely one of the better gloves, but as I understand it the 5 finger sparing glove is cheaper, and I might be biased because I own a pair, but better. My worry for the koning is you can feel medium hits to the fingers, so heavy hits that are more common in tournament fighting may cause damage, recently in a tornament I was in, a fencer wearing konings retired due to getting hit on the hand, his pinky fingers nail was split in half and bleeding, it didn't look like the worst hand wound, but it was enough to make him decide to retire. And I don't blame him, split nails hurt. That said his opponent was hitting hard, But I would argue not so hard to be too hard, the problem is when all the force of a cut lands on one finger. Where as the sparing gloves have a very hard protective resin on the fingers, so you don't feel any pain from medium blows. my only worry from them is the wrist, it sacrifices protection for maneuverability, I've had no issue so far, but sometimes you can feels blows to the inside of the wrist in them. I also don't like the shear size of the koning, although I think it tends to look bigger in videos, as some people in my club own it. And they were smaller than I thought, still big. This may not mean much, as the pair I tried on were not made to my specifications, but they resist your hand movement, it was difficult to close a fist.
He's quite negative towards everything Neyman. I own a pair of the light version, and they're fantastic for sabre. Anything without a complex guard, the heavies are more appropriate, and I don't have those.
I find the fingers woefully inadequate - in my view the much cheaper Red Dragons offer better finger protection. And the rest of the glove is over-built. I cannot even hold a sabre properly with those Montoya gloves and would not trust the finger protection in any case. Your time and money would be better spent modifying a pair of Red Dragon gloves.
Fair enough, if that's how you feel. My personal experience is that I've never come anywhere close to getting a hand injury in the Montoyas, even in a tournament with steel, while a colleague of mine is constantly weary of getting hit in his RDs for fear of injury. It might just be a difference in mentality.
LOL, Matt your personal view gets in the way of reason. Red Dragons are crap lacrosse goves that arent even made for hema (just like evertything else with this ugly red dragon branding). Neymans are far from perfect, but they are at least designed with hema in mind.
Matt, you call 210 € expensive? Is not cheap (especially in Slovakia), but SparringGloves 5-finger model goes for 190 €. Not that much difference. Love your video, going to spread word about great new product.
Ive only recently started watching videos on hema and the attire required, so please correct me if im wrong but wouldnt medieval finger gauntlets offer more than enough protection while offering period accurate articulation in the fingers wrist and so forth?
Unfortunately steel gauntlets have fairly poor impact protection on fingers and quite restrict mobility for unarmoured fencing styles. They are also fairly heavy. You can achieve similar or better impact protection for lighter weight against blunt weapons with plastic and foam.
@@scholagladiatoria First of all thanks for replying, i love your videos, im new to this subject, i was not aware gauntlets really had weakness to impacts, and more suprisingly there was unarmoured longsword styles i wrongly assumed it would've been a weapon used in a more heavely armored context. Anyways youve earned yourself another subscriber, thanks again
O.O this video.... im going to my forge tomorrow this has given me an idea i think i can cross the glove and mitten to get both grip and protection. imm gonna make the fingers indepentant to the mitten. the mitten will act as a shell well the finger can repostion under it.
Hockey gloves are designed to protect you against a thick stick, not a thin sword edge. They have little or no protection on the side of the fingers. On them and on laccross gloves, there's a serious risk of broken fingers.
Sparring Gloves like this I do not know, but aren't historical Visby Gloves (and reproductions of them - for example for SCA) basically constructed in the same way, except for the used material (metal -> plastic) of course?
Hi Matt, I'm looking to order a set, tried a friend's pair last week and they are awesome, how long did they take to ship? Because if was three months I might buy two sets.
"if i was to do anything to imprve these gloves ... thats why i mention it at the beginning of the video" *looks at video load bar* almost half way... nice.
Obviously the gloves are not out in any respect yet, but do you have any thoughts about the ProGauntlet? Other than the fact that they're taking a ridiculous amount of time? :P
The prototype looks great, but I have no idea if they can make it into a production glove. I don't see how the sizing will work with such a detailed design for all the differently sized and shaped hands in the world. But they have great brains, so hopes are high. I hope they can do it.
Yeah, I really want it to work. I think that if it could theoretically work it would raise the standards for HEMA gloves all over, but the sizing issue is my biggest worry. I almost feel like they'd have to take an impression of everyone's hands who want one and custom make the glove to fit those hands. That being said, I REALLY want them, if for no other reason than to feel like a sword-fighting Iron Man.
As far as I can tell, I don't really need finger mobility for longsword, so I'm considering getting clamshells from sparringglove or neyman. The way I see it, fingers are more trouble than they're worth, so you end up paying more money for less protection.
The fingers on those gloves are awful, regardless of the manufacturer. There are two types of those gloves in my club and the people already stopped using them.
I use the light version for sabre, and I find them good with room for improvement. The only other ones feasible for sabre, currently, are Red Dragons, and I find the Neyman Montoyas leaps and bounds more protective, while being only a little more bulky. I will admit though that they need to be really well broken in before they behave properly, which is unfortunate for impatient types.
But the fingers on the Montoya gloves are *less* protective than the Red Dragon gloves - neymanfencing.com/459/inigo-montoya.jpg - unless you have some special Montoya gloves with new fingers? I have seen two versions of the Montoya glove in my club and both have significantly worse finger protection than the cheaper Red Dragon gloves.
scholagladiatoria I have the _light_ version with different fingers, but they're nothing new (actually the very first batch). See other thread with picture. I disagree heartily that the finger protection is worse.
sorry but have you tried ice hockey gloves? Those gloves look a lot like 70's-80's hockey gloves. A lot of protection and flexability. I would think there are many similarities to how you hold a hockey stick and a sword.
You can maybe skate by sparring with synthetics and hockey gloves (if you're lucky), but sparring with steel will result in broken fingers. A lot more force and a lot narrower of an edge to slip through gaps in protection.
This maybe a silly question, but still: why would there be a need to invent new technologist for modern equipment for using historical weapons. why not use historical equipment? if the purpose of HEMA is recreation of historical martial arts, wouldn't it make sense to use the equipment used when long swords were used? did they fence with gloves in the 16th century? if so why not just copy those the same way the swords used in Hema are based on historical swords.
I'm not sure the equipment such as gloves is as well known. Also they seem to have both accepted more physical risk and limited their techniques in sparring. Meyer for example which is a bit later and more geared towards sporting context than combat, famously doesn't have a whole lot of thrusts compared to earlier longsword styles. Most likely because of safety concerns. And I think modern HEMA for the most part wants to replicate unarmored combat, not period sparring so much.
1) We don't know how they did protection, and just because they did it doesn't mean it was *good* 2) We do know that they were more accepting of disfiguring or fatal injuries than we are. There's an English joke about how you can recognise a fencing master because he's missing an eye and several teeth, along with plenty of fechtschule accounts about serious injuries or even the odd death. 3) We also know that they often fenced with conventions or rules to increase safety, and it's considered useful by most people in the community to be able to practice things like powerful cuts at the hands, or thrusts at the face. In short, historical techniques plus historical equipment means the historical result - death. We aren't willing to accept that, so we need to either modify the techniques (this is how UK re-enactment is generally kept safe) or the equipment (this is how HEMA generally ensures safety).
Just throwing this out but there should be plenty of theoretical and modern materials that could make a small and dexterous glove for any type of fencing. Granted I dont think they are reasonably available to make said gloves yet but to say its not possible is a really big statement.
A big statement, but probably correct. Any glove that is made will have to deal with compromises. The compromises for longsword fighting are not the same as you'd choose for sabre fighting.
scholagladiatoria True, they are not the same compromises but it should be possible to design for both, not to mention that it should be possible to create gloves that are insignificant enough that they dont get in the way in any meaningful fashion. Again I am not talking about what is probable or available today on the glove market but what is possible either on a theoretical level or based on what we already have today.
In theory, this is what the Progauntlet will provide - perfect protection, skin-tight fit, etc. On the other hand, they've still not managed to release it.
And a glove that works perfectly for one individual is not the same as a glove that will work in mass production for all shapes and sizes of hand. I think that their biggest challenge is making that design work for different sizes.
It feels to me like it is not enough protection. I have seen much more resistant gauntlets not withstand to the masters of cutting in the Czech Republic. For example, Borek Belfín, the master of Digladior fencing school, strikes really hard with a longsword even on a really short cut. I am not sure those gauntlets would protect from that... Mitten gloves are the way to go, I would say. Covering the fingers will mean not enough protection on them and that will mean broken fingers.
I actually find the seperate finger gloves like konigs make finger manipulation much harder. With my mitten sparringgloves, my fingers and hand move and hold the grip of my sword pretty much just like if i had no glove on. With individual fingers, they're all separated much much wider than they would be with no gloves (or mitten sparringgloves). I personally see no real advantage to having separate fingers. The only one thing is its easier to let go of your sword with one hand. But i dont do that, i like keeping both hands on my sword 😁😂
am i the only one having problems with the plates? some of them are really pushing against my knuckles making my hands' movements really uncomfortable i have the newest version btw
Mine felt like that at first, but after a couple of weeks they were fine. I think what helped with my gloves was 'crunching' them as much as possible - twisting, bending, screwing, bashing.... Just basically flexing them in every way possible.
aanler metal gauntlets whilst protective pose a risk to your opponent. if your fighting as opposed to bouting then Fine use what you can to hurt your opponent and survive the fight, but when bouting in tournaments or sparring one doesn't want to break friends. You can't play with your friends if you break them.
Most historically accurate steel gauntlets don't allow you to fight in an unarmoured way, as they restrict movement. They are also fairly heavy, expensive (if well made) and in some cases don't protect from blunt force very well - they are designed to protect from cuts and thrusts, not blunt force to the fingers (with the exception of mitten gauntlets, which are much more restrictive).
"My Königs are going to come one day!"
I want this inscribed on my gravestone.
I ordered last February, and they're still not here yet.
At least from this review, I won't be disappointed when I finally get them.
My understanding that that they were not being produced until June - anything ordered before that point was pre-order. They are catching up with orders I believe.
scholagladiatoria Just got the info that I'm getting them next shipment. My wait is near its end.
Apparently the order was cancelled after an overload issue with the system.
The hype was unreal back then.
I've had the Koning for a while now... They are okay, but I'm still looking for that Holy Grail... I certainly like the mobility they offer, but I think they are ideally suited to be paired with ring guards for the longsword.
I think we will still see broken fingers with Koning. Also, they have issues for people with large hands. Over time the leather on mine has gotten a few holes, but they have held up okay.
I view them as really good for light sparring, but I'm not sure I'd be willing to take them to a tournament right now.
All in all, they are a move in the right direction, but the grail is still not found. I'm glad to see they are continuing to work to improve the quality.
What would you use for tournament fighting?
For now I'd default to standby design of mitten gloves, because I don't have a feder with a ring guard. I'd 100% wear Koning if I had that. I'm also considering getting some hoof gloves, because I value my ability to change grip, which is my biggest complaint about the mitten styles.
I love the Koning gloves, but I love my fingers more.. and that will likely forever be the downside of fingered gloves, because that mobility will also means your fingers can flex in unintended ways...
Also, for people who are really good at not having their hands hit, they are probably okay.
Medieval Review the new version are better for big hands, I had a very early preorder pair that were stolen and have worn the new ones, and I have giant hands.
Good to hear, I know it as a common point of feedback on the gloves.
So what you are saying is they need finger mobility limiting?, which does look like the pro gauntlet might achieve through clever articulation, obviously everyone is wondering how they will turn out.
However I wonder if simple tension based limiters could achieve the same result on a glove like the koning. So high strength flexible rope/cable/tape in the correct places to stop movement in certain directions but keep the rest of the motion free. I doubt it would fully protect but it could limit the most probable breakage incidences.
I only have Red Dragons atm and haven't experienced better gloves (other than some good steel gauntlets), so can't be sure how well this would work.
Thank you for making this video. It's so so so helpful to have an experienced fencer actually review gloves. Even though these might not get tons of views, please make more whenever you get the chance. That along with all types of gear. Actually it would be great if you went over all the pieces of gear you wear while sparring longswords, saber, ect.
A couple of notes:
Mark I had cognac and burgundy colours.
The change is that the outer leather has been made a bit thinner (for mobility), and the palm a bit thicker (for durability).
Neatsfoot oil is the best thing I've found for breaking them in and softening the leather. I've been using Mark I gloves for six months or so now, and a few coats of neatsfoot oil have done wonders for the movement, along obviously with proper time to work them.
There's also a full (and good) inner Kevlar layer. I took a strong thrust to the inside of the finger last weekend, and it was stopped before punching through my hands.
I've had some seriously painful hits, normally when I get caught while halfswording (so the blow hits just one finger). Nothing broken yet, but it can hurt like a bastard.
I got a pair of these (after several months of waiting):
- the protection is great
- the thumb mobility is meh (it's difficult to thumb the blade)
- having just one size is obviously an issue
- one of the plates digs into my wrist sometimes
- they are quite heavy
- here and there between the layers there are thick stitchings and untrimmed pieces of material that are uncomfortable and add to the internal bulkiness
- the internal material is quite abrasive on the knuckles.
- but most of all, there's way way WAY too much material on the palm. There's the light soft leather you can see on the outside AND a padded glove beneath that. It's good to have padding between the hand and the plates, but on the palm it's just a nuisance.
So, though they probably are indeed the best heavy gloves we have at the moment, they do have several issues.
No glove is worse than lobsters.
Hey Matt,
Did you have any trouble with them rubbing your knuckles? Mine keep causing blisters.
Can you fit a thin cotton or linen glove underneath them?
Putting boxing tape on your knuckles or wearing a light glove does the trick :)
I've not had that problem yet.
For the first couple weeks of breaking mine in I had that problem with many of my knuckles. I wore thin gloves underneath my konings for that initial period of breaking in to avoid that problem, and now it's mostly gone. There's one or two knuckles that can get a little chafed by repeating certain actions, but I'm not feeling raw and worrying about blisters.
Not a HEMA guy but my experience as a former keen Long Distance Walker is that cotton inner socks(gloves) help. If, like me, you have Hairy Toes (yes, I'm a Hobbit) shaving the top of the toes is a massive help - so if you have even slight hairiness on the back of the fingers, knuckles, and/or hand try shaving the relevant area.
Note that there are also products sold for Walking Boots that will speed Breaking In. I'd be cautious about using them on these gloves but if you have problems with Breaking In your gloves or feel the leather needs softening for other reasons (eg. avoiding blisters) they might be worth a look.
Yeah. I've had a pair of the gen 1's since Longpoint. They are my favorite glove right now. I'm not sure I'd recommend them to beginning fencers, especially if you have larger hands, but they are a great glove!
Cool - out of interest, what would you currently recommend to beginners? Sparring Gloves?
For me, a lot of it depends on your training environment. If you just need something basic to protect you from incidental hits in drills then I recommend Red Dragons, and we have a lot of students who are not particularly interested in competing. But, if you have ANY interest in tournament fighting, yet are still new enough that hard hand hits happen, then I recommend the Sparring Gloves, or maybe the SPES Heavies. I used to recommend Blacklance's for everything, but alas they don't exist anymore. I think Sparring Gloves have a large advantage over SPES, but they should be custom sized to get the full benefit of their coverage. Custom sizes can take time, maybe you can get SPES gloves faster... I don't know. I do have a number of SPES gloves at the school, some people like them (I don't). My backup tournament gloves are Sparring Gloves, I used them for a few years, they're great.
I also have pre-orders of the Thokk gloves, and the ProGauntlet, so we'll see what happens there...
It's also a point to note that my gen 1 Koning's do have a manufacturing flaw. Anders pointed it out to me at Swordfish last year. He offered to get it fixed, but I don't want to be without them for long. I have large hands so the gloves DO bruise me if I get hit hard. Once they come out with a slightly larger size, I'm going to order another pair and send my old ones in to get fixed
Thanks, interesting stuff. I recognise that the Sparring Gloves are still in many ways the benchmark for tournament longsword gloves. Personally I have a pair of the SPES Heavies and literally cannot use them. I can't hold a sword properly with them, let alone fence properly. It seems that they either fit people or they don't and if they don't fit right then they don't work at all.
I only know one or two people who have made the SPES gloves work, but they are pretty good fencers.
I think the Sparring Glove will continue to be the go-to glove for tournaments for a little while longer. It's also fairly easy to modify to greatly increase it's durability, that's what I did.
Thanks, currently I'm using Red Dragons (also just starting). Königs will be my go to gloves if/when I get into heavier sparing/tournaments.
Matt, please keep an eye open for the thokks, they are planned to be a slimmer profile version of Koning's essential;ly, this may somewhat address the issue with the super wide wristpieces.
Yes I'll be very interested to see those when they come out. As with most gloves, my fear will be that they work for longsword or arming sword, but not for sabre, as we need to hold the sword in a different position with the thumb up.
I thokk that would be the case.
Yeah! Matt is doing longsword again! Hope we see some more videos concerning longsword combat. ;)
I really like the image of people just walking around with those gloves on, going to work, or going shopping, and wiggling them around.
Is the "Hulk-Smash"-Move actually allowed in Hema tournaments?
or the "five point palm exploding heart technique" ?
last time I used it I was accused of beeing a cheater as it's "not what liechtenauer would have done" :D
In the event that you needed them quickly, Baseball glove oil might be useful to break them in . Also, oiling the glove and rolling and tossing a ball (a relatively hard ball) from glove to glove. Its the first thing considered when you mentioned the break in period. Maybe it will help someone that's in a pinch to press them into service.
Hey Matt make sure to do a follow up video in a few months to a year. I've heard from quite a few people who have the version I Konig Gloves and they all had complaints about the durability, we would all love to see/hear how these improved versions hold up or if that is still an issue, cheers.
Matt, have you tried the 5-finger Polish Sparring Gloves? I just received mine and I've only used them so far in a few light sparring sessions with mixed weapons, but they seem to me to be on-par with the Konings for protection. They are also quicker to obtain and are made to your size -- my current problem with the Konings is that I have small hands and the "one size" Konings are just too large for me. I can put my hands in them and move them around, but in sparring they would fly off my hands, which, obviously, is not good.
Let's hope the progauntlet will surprise us and is both adequate for longsword as well as supple enough for sabre.
`Great video, Matt! I'm going back to longsword after a long absence & I'm really pleased to hear that the Koning Gloves are holding up to their promise :) Getting cracked on the fingers is awful - investing in good safe gloves is something I'm happy to do.
As an aside: How did medieval longsword fencers deal with the risks of hand injuries?
They must have had a way to minimise the risk, or perhaps their more full understanding of the longsword techniques & training regimes took it into account...
There's no way to answer those questions, btw, I'm thinking out loud but would love to hear your own thoughts on the matter.
Nice review, was thinking about getting a pair myself.
On the stiffness issue, if it is just the leather, a balsam like Renapur or leather oil/conditioner would help immensely.
What is the size of your Fiore feder? I have a ~86.5cm blade and ~25cm hilt on mine, although I don't study Fiore.
I had a pair of really nice Dainese motorcycle gloves that have all the same qualities as those but they had steel around the fingers instead of plastic.. plus they looked more form fitting to your hand.
Doreen Green I don't think motorcycle gloves would protect very well against impacts to the sides of the fingers. The reinforcements tend to be only along the knuckles, at least in the ones I own.
True, it doesn't cover the length of your finger like a plate gauntlet. But they have cool carbon fiber and titanium plates and inserts.
Hey Matt,
Now that you're getting back into longsword.. would now be a good time to ask for an indepth video about Fiore and his treatise?
I'm curious if you've ever tried the Sparring Gloves (you're totally right on the name) newer 5-finger model. I got these a while back and I absolutely love them, but I don't see anyone else wearing them at tournaments or putting any reviews up online. They're custom fit, which is great for me because my fingers are way too long to use the original Konig (haven't tried 2nd gen). Even with my longer fingers, the Sparring Glove 5-fingers can fit into my Regenyei sabre without being locked into a hammer fist (still a bit tight). My only complaints are that it's a bit of a pain to get on and off (maybe fudge your wrist size a bit if you order them) and I'm worried about their longevity since the articulated plates and elastic are on the outside without being held together by such a nice leather layer as the Konigs. Can I get anyone's opinion who has tried these and maybe some answers to why they seem so rare in HEMA? Also, to Matt, have you ever considered these as opposed to the hoof or mitten Sparring Gloves?
Do you feel that the shorter fiori blades gives you a disadvantage against more 'endowed' swords?
Yes. A longer sword is of course advantageous. However, not all longsword systems were intended to be used with massive longswords that could not be practically worn as secondary weapons in war.
Thanks for this review. The Saint Mark website does not say anything about first or second generations. Do you know if any new orders will receive the second generation?
How easily can you raise your thumb while holding a sword in those gloves? Thinking of German techniques where you put your thumb on the base of the blade above the guard.
If they are anything like leather golf shoes i used to use the water protection shoe wax that really gets them soft with out having to do to much wearing them in around the house.
I liked the konning gloves originally. Would use my Clubs loaners when sparring. Till it took a good hit to where the thumb meets the hand in them ( the area inbetween the thumb and pointer finger). Was moderate sparring, was not pleasant at the time, and that night it swelled up and was killing me for a week or two. Im at 3 or 4 weeks since that hit, and I still feel this odd pain when thumbing the sword for Zwers etc.
Any update on these? How do you find them after some time using the gloves?
would you be able to have a free floating plate on the bottom of the wrist to allow for the cuff to move inwards when needed whilst still having the large cuffs for wrist mobility & protection? , i merely thought of it as what i would do if i was making them as soon as you mentioned the problem.
I used to boffer for fitness (you can't really boffer for authentic technique). I got minor, tiny bruises and little scrapes all the time, and never cared much. But I was forced to quit when the tip of a padded-sword hit the tip of my pinky straight on. It bend my pinky in a weird way... and gave me a near lengthwise spiral of the proximal phalanx.
Hey Matt, would a glove that had a mitten design for the middle, ring, and pinky finger, but a free index finger work well?
Neyman have a glove like that and I know some people really like them. I've never tried one personally.
I have the Neyman Thokk gloves, they are what you're describing. I've had them for a couple months now and they work fine. Good protection, ok, but not great, mobility. They work well for longsword or any other open hilted weapon but don't work for saber, rapier, etc. Just remember if you do order from Neyman that they will quote you 30 days from order date as when your order will ship, the reality is about 5 months.
hmmm they are definitely one of the better gloves, but as I understand it the 5 finger sparing glove is cheaper, and I might be biased because I own a pair, but better. My worry for the koning is you can feel medium hits to the fingers, so heavy hits that are more common in tournament fighting may cause damage, recently in a tornament I was in, a fencer wearing konings retired due to getting hit on the hand, his pinky fingers nail was split in half and bleeding, it didn't look like the worst hand wound, but it was enough to make him decide to retire. And I don't blame him, split nails hurt. That said his opponent was hitting hard, But I would argue not so hard to be too hard, the problem is when all the force of a cut lands on one finger.
Where as the sparing gloves have a very hard protective resin on the fingers, so you don't feel any pain from medium blows. my only worry from them is the wrist, it sacrifices protection for maneuverability, I've had no issue so far, but sometimes you can feels blows to the inside of the wrist in them.
I also don't like the shear size of the koning, although I think it tends to look bigger in videos, as some people in my club own it. And they were smaller than I thought, still big. This may not mean much, as the pair I tried on were not made to my specifications, but they resist your hand movement, it was difficult to close a fist.
Quick question... what gloves do you use for sabre, rapier, sidesword, smallsword, etc?
Red Dragon for sabre or sidesword - Revival padded leather gloves for rapier and smallsword.
you need a lot less protection with developed hilts
What gloves or gauntlets did historical swordsmen use? Can we use those just as well?
Would the cuff be a better fit if you were wearing a fencing jacket/gambeson and/or plastic vambraces instead of having bare forearms?
That doesn't really make any difference to the wrist IMHO.
Have you seen the reveal of the THOKK gloves by Personal Armor?
I'm curious to see how they turn out to be
hey im from Gothenburg!
Then get your butt to GHFS.
+scholagladiatoria I'm from GHFS, it's awesome fun!
Swords out for harambe.
in regards to bullk what about the pro guantlets that are being developed? videos they've shown of them look very slim and just as protective as these
I can't really judge from a prototype made to fit an individual. Let's talk again when there is a glove in production to buy.
if you had a saber with a larger hilt/grip would those gloves work, speaking from a manuf point of view
Wondering how these would stand up for Quarterstaff Matt?
What gloves do you use for sabre? Great video, Matt!
have you tried the neyman inigo montoya?
He's quite negative towards everything Neyman. I own a pair of the light version, and they're fantastic for sabre. Anything without a complex guard, the heavies are more appropriate, and I don't have those.
I find the fingers woefully inadequate - in my view the much cheaper Red Dragons offer better finger protection. And the rest of the glove is over-built. I cannot even hold a sabre properly with those Montoya gloves and would not trust the finger protection in any case. Your time and money would be better spent modifying a pair of Red Dragon gloves.
Fair enough, if that's how you feel. My personal experience is that I've never come anywhere close to getting a hand injury in the Montoyas, even in a tournament with steel, while a colleague of mine is constantly weary of getting hit in his RDs for fear of injury. It might just be a difference in mentality.
Compared to gloves like Koning and Sparring gloves, Neyman gloves feel quite crappy.
LOL, Matt your personal view gets in the way of reason. Red Dragons are crap lacrosse goves that arent even made for hema (just like evertything else with this ugly red dragon branding). Neymans are far from perfect, but they are at least designed with hema in mind.
Matt, you call 210 € expensive?
Is not cheap (especially in Slovakia), but SparringGloves 5-finger model goes for 190 €. Not that much difference.
Love your video, going to spread word about great new product.
Excellent review, thanks!
You should do a separate video on your "fiore feder."
Oh there is nothing interesting about it - it's just a Regenyei feder of slightly shorter proportions than normal.
So these are apparently okay for one handed sword too? Mentioned in the video but I want to hear it again.
One-handed arming sword, but I find them too big for complex hilts or sabres... Though they may work for some sideswords.
Ive only recently started watching videos on hema and the attire required, so please correct me if im wrong but wouldnt medieval finger gauntlets offer more than enough protection while offering period accurate articulation in the fingers wrist and so forth?
Unfortunately steel gauntlets have fairly poor impact protection on fingers and quite restrict mobility for unarmoured fencing styles. They are also fairly heavy. You can achieve similar or better impact protection for lighter weight against blunt weapons with plastic and foam.
@@scholagladiatoria First of all thanks for replying, i love your videos, im new to this subject, i was not aware gauntlets really had weakness to impacts, and more suprisingly there was unarmoured longsword styles i wrongly assumed it would've been a weapon used in a more heavely armored context.
Anyways youve earned yourself another subscriber, thanks again
"The reason for the stiffness is, just simply, the leather."
Have you heard of the Thokk weapon master gloves being released soon?
I have, but as they haven't been released and I haven't seen any or know anyone with a pair, I cannot really comment.
yeah, i'm interested to see how they perform.
O.O this video.... im going to my forge tomorrow this has given me an idea i think i can cross the glove and mitten to get both grip and protection. imm gonna make the fingers indepentant to the mitten. the mitten will act as a shell well the finger can repostion under it.
Caleb Lennox You should make a video about the result
Caleb Lennox it works fairly well, I've done that to my SPES heavy gloves
Canadian speaking here... ever tried hockey gloves? :)
Hockey gloves are designed to protect you against a thick stick, not a thin sword edge. They have little or no protection on the side of the fingers. On them and on laccross gloves, there's a serious risk of broken fingers.
Yes, lots of HEMA people started with hockey gloves and unfortunately lots of people got broken fingers.
I was being a little facetious, but thanks for the informative replies :)
Sparring Gloves like this I do not know, but aren't historical Visby Gloves (and reproductions of them - for example for SCA) basically constructed in the same way, except for the used material (metal -> plastic) of course?
Similar in some ways, yes. A lot more expensive to get replicated though.
Are hilt strikes and unarmed strikes allowed in Hema? It seems like a punch would hurt less than a 4ft long metal rod.
Yes they are allowed.
scholagladiatoria Good to know, thanks
Good review, nice gloves
What about a hilt add-on that gives you a hand guard? It just has to fit many swords.
When will you post the tods stuff messer?
Soon, soon.
Hi Matt, I'm looking to order a set, tried a friend's pair last week and they are awesome, how long did they take to ship? Because if was three months I might buy two sets.
Shipping times seem to vary a lot for people - I suggest you contact them directly and ask the ETA.
i have a friend who's been waiting for around 4-5months i believe
K Riding thanks, something to consider, I think it's one of the more annoying aspects of hema, the back log for the decent kit.
you look wonderful today
what is the sword that is above the smallsword ? the one with the golden scabbard
A British infantry officer's sabre, which belonged to a famous officer.
+scholagladiatoria SO jealous 😫
10:23 "Not very pleasant and quite painful" *nervous giggle*
Matt... Is there something you're not telling us?
I would personally still prefer the mittens because I feel you need every bit of protection you can get
age of craft did this along time ago, with steel gauntlets
"if i was to do anything to imprve these gloves ... thats why i mention it at the beginning of the video"
*looks at video load bar*
almost half way... nice.
Obviously the gloves are not out in any respect yet, but do you have any thoughts about the ProGauntlet? Other than the fact that they're taking a ridiculous amount of time? :P
The prototype looks great, but I have no idea if they can make it into a production glove. I don't see how the sizing will work with such a detailed design for all the differently sized and shaped hands in the world. But they have great brains, so hopes are high. I hope they can do it.
Yeah, I really want it to work. I think that if it could theoretically work it would raise the standards for HEMA gloves all over, but the sizing issue is my biggest worry. I almost feel like they'd have to take an impression of everyone's hands who want one and custom make the glove to fit those hands.
That being said, I REALLY want them, if for no other reason than to feel like a sword-fighting Iron Man.
How's the feel when holding a sword?
Good.
scholagladiatoria that's good because in the video the palms look really padded
No they are relatively thin leather.
scholagladiatoria cool. I'm sick of using hockey gloves. Now that I've seen these Ima have to pick a pair up
I don't know if they can break, but knuckles can definitely shatter.
Source: I shattered the knuckle of my left pinky when a punch I threw went foul.
how smelly do they get? boxing glove smelly?
As far as I can tell, I don't really need finger mobility for longsword, so I'm considering getting clamshells from sparringglove or neyman. The way I see it, fingers are more trouble than they're worth, so you end up paying more money for less protection.
My main problem with them is that they get ugly scratches and dents. :( Protection and mobility are fine.
Matt, there's also Neyman Inigo Montoya (heavy version) gauntlets, but we all know how you feel about Neyman, don't we.
The fingers on those gloves are awful, regardless of the manufacturer. There are two types of those gloves in my club and the people already stopped using them.
I use the light version for sabre, and I find them good with room for improvement. The only other ones feasible for sabre, currently, are Red Dragons, and I find the Neyman Montoyas leaps and bounds more protective, while being only a little more bulky. I will admit though that they need to be really well broken in before they behave properly, which is unfortunate for impatient types.
But the fingers on the Montoya gloves are *less* protective than the Red Dragon gloves - neymanfencing.com/459/inigo-montoya.jpg - unless you have some special Montoya gloves with new fingers? I have seen two versions of the Montoya glove in my club and both have significantly worse finger protection than the cheaper Red Dragon gloves.
scholagladiatoria I have the _light_ version with different fingers, but they're nothing new (actually the very first batch). See other thread with picture. I disagree heartily that the finger protection is worse.
SPES heavies?
sorry but have you tried ice hockey gloves? Those gloves look a lot like 70's-80's hockey gloves. A lot of protection and flexability. I would think there are many similarities to how you hold a hockey stick and a sword.
You can maybe skate by sparring with synthetics and hockey gloves (if you're lucky), but sparring with steel will result in broken fingers. A lot more force and a lot narrower of an edge to slip through gaps in protection.
Everyone in HEMA used to use hockey gloves and lots of people got broken fingers unfortunately.
Has anyone heard the sales price for these?
210 Euros.
i need these
This maybe a silly question, but still: why would there be a need to invent new technologist for modern equipment for using historical weapons. why not use historical equipment?
if the purpose of HEMA is recreation of historical martial arts, wouldn't it make sense to use the equipment used when long swords were used? did they fence with gloves in the 16th century? if so why not just copy those the same way the swords used in Hema are based on historical swords.
Because we don't know how those gloves were constructed.
I'm not sure the equipment such as gloves is as well known. Also they
seem to have both accepted more physical risk and limited their
techniques in sparring. Meyer for example which is a bit later and more
geared towards sporting context than combat, famously doesn't have a
whole lot of thrusts compared to earlier longsword styles. Most likely
because of safety concerns. And I think modern HEMA for the most part wants to replicate unarmored combat, not period sparring so much.
1) We don't know how they did protection, and just because they did it doesn't mean it was *good*
2) We do know that they were more accepting of disfiguring or fatal injuries than we are. There's an English joke about how you can recognise a fencing master because he's missing an eye and several teeth, along with plenty of fechtschule accounts about serious injuries or even the odd death.
3) We also know that they often fenced with conventions or rules to increase safety, and it's considered useful by most people in the community to be able to practice things like powerful cuts at the hands, or thrusts at the face.
In short, historical techniques plus historical equipment means the historical result - death. We aren't willing to accept that, so we need to either modify the techniques (this is how UK re-enactment is generally kept safe) or the equipment (this is how HEMA generally ensures safety).
Just throwing this out but there should be plenty of theoretical and modern materials that could make a small and dexterous glove for any type of fencing. Granted I dont think they are reasonably available to make said gloves yet but to say its not possible is a really big statement.
A big statement, but probably correct. Any glove that is made will have to deal with compromises. The compromises for longsword fighting are not the same as you'd choose for sabre fighting.
scholagladiatoria
True, they are not the same compromises but it should be possible to design for both, not to mention that it should be possible to create gloves that are insignificant enough that they dont get in the way in any meaningful fashion.
Again I am not talking about what is probable or available today on the glove market but what is possible either on a theoretical level or based on what we already have today.
In theory, this is what the Progauntlet will provide - perfect protection, skin-tight fit, etc.
On the other hand, they've still not managed to release it.
And a glove that works perfectly for one individual is not the same as a glove that will work in mass production for all shapes and sizes of hand. I think that their biggest challenge is making that design work for different sizes.
It feels to me like it is not enough protection. I have seen much more resistant gauntlets not withstand to the masters of cutting in the Czech Republic. For example, Borek Belfín, the master of Digladior fencing school, strikes really hard with a longsword even on a really short cut. I am not sure those gauntlets would protect from that... Mitten gloves are the way to go, I would say. Covering the fingers will mean not enough protection on them and that will mean broken fingers.
I actually find the seperate finger gloves like konigs make finger manipulation much harder. With my mitten sparringgloves, my fingers and hand move and hold the grip of my sword pretty much just like if i had no glove on. With individual fingers, they're all separated much much wider than they would be with no gloves (or mitten sparringgloves). I personally see no real advantage to having separate fingers. The only one thing is its easier to let go of your sword with one hand. But i dont do that, i like keeping both hands on my sword 😁😂
shame they have only one size fits all, i have small hands and those are huge.
Looks like the padding is on the palm side.
It isn't.
Just an optical illusion.
Jeeze, at that price I'd probably just buy a pair of hourglass gauntlets.
am i the only one having problems with the plates? some of them are really pushing against my knuckles making my hands' movements really uncomfortable
i have the newest version btw
Yes. Mine are scraping the skin away where they make contact.
Mine felt like that at first, but after a couple of weeks they were fine. I think what helped with my gloves was 'crunching' them as much as possible - twisting, bending, screwing, bashing.... Just basically flexing them in every way possible.
You can push the plates around inside the leather to help adjust that.
LaoHQ Is there no room for an liner glove?
If your hand was a lot smaller than the glove, maybe, but that would be like wearing two pairs of socks. You'd lose most sense of feeling.
Just use metal gauntlets? :)
aanler metal gauntlets whilst protective pose a risk to your opponent. if your fighting as opposed to bouting then Fine use what you can to hurt your opponent and survive the fight, but when bouting in tournaments or sparring one doesn't want to break friends.
You can't play with your friends if you break them.
Most historically accurate steel gauntlets don't allow you to fight in an unarmoured way, as they restrict movement. They are also fairly heavy, expensive (if well made) and in some cases don't protect from blunt force very well - they are designed to protect from cuts and thrusts, not blunt force to the fingers (with the exception of mitten gauntlets, which are much more restrictive).
You just talked about gloves, could you talk about masks? (If you haven't already, that is.)
how to break in those faster: do pugilism
Has anyone told you that you look like Solas?
goo.gl/LEjMnV
Yes