Does Kirchhoff's Law Hold? Disagreeing with a Master
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- Опубликовано: 8 фев 2025
- This might be more of a lesson on proper probing than anything! There would be much less confusion if you have reliable results.
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Dr. Walter Lewin’s videos on Kirchhoff’s Voltage Law:
• 8.02x - Lect 16 - Elec...
• Kirchhoff's Loop Rule ...
• Believing and Science ...
• ha ha ha 5 + 3 - 8 = 0
By: Mehdi Sadaghdar
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#Kirchhoff #KVL #KCL #ElectroBOOM
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Hello team RECTIFIER! Make sure to watch the next video on the topic: ruclips.net/video/Q9LuVBfwvzA/видео.html
ElectroBOOM ok
Stop looking at the camera it feels like your looking deep into my soul.
I agree
I like how you challenge the norm, fight for the truth even if you have to oppose the majority! I hope you're indeed correct and get to have your own claim on humanity's understanding of all things electric!
HMM... there is no common earth, thus its unfair. - i bet your anomaly disappears. if you common eath the scope, too a fixed point on the input induction bolt coil.. for both tests.
You can tell he's serious because he doesn't shock himself in this video.
haha! +1
Well, I didn't understand anything but the fact that he still shocked some scientists out there
@@angelomartino4667 hehehe.
Also the altitude of his Eyebrow~s~
lol
"I couldn't be happier to be wrong and learn something new." -an important moral fiber rare these days.
So true. It's something that bothers me in almost every discussion I (try) to have with people, the rare exceptions excluded of course.
Yet it's so great to be wrong! Because now you now know better and have become a better person for it. What's not to love? :D
Yep
I literally read this the same time Mehdi said it
Are you Illuminati?
@@dimitriss.7954 I am working on it my friend.
"These days"
Nah that's a universal human bias
Very well done and diplomatic ;)
And the civil engineer shows up trying to play around with the electricals.
@@Token_Nerd You shouldn't anger a civil engineer. They usually design civil structures in a way that they can hide bodies inside.
@@_aullik As a Civil Engineer, no comment >;)
And civil engineers are experts in civility!
@@89rafa Very subtle pun.
Bad probing is almost always the number one source of error in electronics experiments. Kudos Mehdi
My thoughts exactly! Thanks for saving me from having to comment this.
@MikeDonaldson-eh2ru I've watched several of Lewin videos, the guy knows his stuff but often doesn't bother to explain....must be an MIT thing, gifted students expected to figure it out on their own.
"My mom thinks I'm mostly ok."
It's ok Mehdi. We're all in that boat together. Love you man. Keep up the great work!
My mom doesnt know what to do with me anymore.
My mom disowned me :c
Jk shes the best mom ever.
that ws sad
My mom does not have the same feeling about me Infact it's the complete opposite 😁
I am surprised that Dr. Lewin did not consider the mutual coupling of the coils with each other in his experiments. In his test moving the probing wires around should change his results. I could not find anything wrong with your analysis. Dr. Lewin seems to verify his hypothesis through the demonstrated experiment which appears to be flawed in how it is setup and yields an incorrect result. First step would be to correct the setup before we even discuss the issue at hand.
God has spoken.
I think this is more an EE/Physics communication barrier. The physics view is that the EMF is not strictly a property of the circuit (and which points you choose), but of the full path enclosed by the probe wires and whichever part of the circuit forms the rest of the loop. Time-varying magnetic flux changes the situation from being a conservative potential (safely path-independent) to one where the loop integral is path-dependent.
When @ElectroBOOM talks about "bad probing" or "good probing" it essentially is defined as "arranging your probes to avoid encountering the effects of flux in the path segment outside the circuit. I.e., suppressing exactly the difference Levin is talking about. When he introduces a transformer into the model, it is incorporating the probe wires into the circuit as the secondary.
The controversy is about how one classifies these issues of measuring the voltage and whether they are included in the meaning of KVL or not.
he's reading a 1 turn coild with some wires that act exactly like a 1/2 turn antiparallel coil. Of course it's gonna negate half the reading, and you dont even need to flip it. Moving the wires most change the reading because he is litteraly adding 1 and substracting 0.5
I also think this is an EE/Physics communication barrier. Faraday's Law is very clear. The voltage in a closed loop is equal to the time derivative of the magnetic flux. If there is a time varying magnetic flux present, the voltage in a closed loop is not zero and Kirchhoff's Law doesn't hold.
@@ricardonunes6724 "If there is a time varying magnetic flux present, the voltage in a closed loop is not zero and Kirchhoff's Law doesn't hold."
no, that is simply false. It holds true for dynamic systems just as well.
I am really glad you did this video, not just cause I agree with you. It can be scary to challenge the findings of someone you respect but I think he would respect that challenge because we'll science.
Unfortunately dogma is big in science as well. Look at the oil drop fiasco.
Can anyone show me where the professor says that Kirchhoff should be changed because it is not correct, and where exactly is the experiment that he did and that he says shows this. Why are people pretending that the professor is attacking Kirchhoff. It is clear that what he is doing is showing his students that when you make an experiment where you don't take into considerations the very well known limitations of Kirchhoff, you will get the wrong results. Not probing in such a way as to make Kirchhoff work was the whole point of the experiment. It was to show that not adjusting for the effects caused by the limitations will produce bad results. I am absolutely dumfounded that people legitimately thing that the professor doesn't know how to probe a circuit, instead of thinking that he is doing so intentionally in order to show his students the dangers of not fully understanding Kirchhoff laws and their limitations.
Can i just say that watching both this and your follow up video, i think the best lesson to be learned here is how to handle a disagreement like an adult. You found someone who had reached a conclusion that you disagreed with, and were still respectful of their findings and knowledge, while showing the reasoning that lead you to disagree. If more people could handle their disputes like this the world would be a happier place. Best wishes to you.
Couldn't agree more
He did everything he could to be tactful and respectful and still got gruff. You can really tell no one has disagreed with Lewin in at least 30 years. He handled it so poorly.
@@pearz420 I kind of can see where prof. coming from. When people bother you with stupid questions and provide their demonstrations that doesn't make sense then after a while you just decide to stop going into any discussions. Maybe he had enough as educator. Of course he could have handled it better. I mean ElectroBoom certainly makes not only entertaining but also educational videos. And it would certainly benefit both of them to make a constructive argument.
Interesting to see you challenging Dr Lewin. Science drama is so much better than typical RUclips drama. And this is science drama _on_ RUclips! A new paradigm!
Id enjoy drama a lot more if all of it was like this!
"my mom thinks I'm mostly ok." 😂
r e l a t a b l e .
lol - yeah, I was glad to hear that too.
So I'm not the only one who has received that statement before 😂😂😂
the rectifierrr
Yeah my mom thinks I’m ok kinda.
Mostly lmao
You are correct I have experienced different measurement around the loop while performing some practical in my university even my professor were stoked to see that, but I realized later that I had bad probing.
Well explained Keep the videos coming and always express it good to see what other people think.
try probing shitty solder joints with a scope......you can get readings from 0 to 150V on a 5V circuit.....
90% of people who liked this comment saw just some smart words and liked even without reading
@@laharl2k yes
@@SpaceTimeBeing_ i though the comment was pretty clear to,weird.
Your regular, humour-filled videos with shocking situations that make you want to go Ohm, are nice and I love them, but this video was really refreshing. Seeing you explain a confusing topic and simplifying it down so those of us, not too familiar with electronics yet can understand...dude, I need more of this. I think that is a legitimate sign of intelligence.
I was working on this same experiment for a Book. And I couldn't find a Simple way of explaining this. You did it in just 15 minutes which is awesome.
This is very well done and quite diplomatic I must say.
Well he works in electronics & has an MS in it.
Do you really think that his explanation is right??
Not to be rude, but maybe you should wait with your book until you know what you're writing about. Mehdi is completely wrong, and what he is proposing is in direct contradiction with maxwell's third law. Kirchoff's voltage law does not hold under varying magnetic fields and has never in history been thought to. As a matter of fact, if it did hold generally we could not have engines, generators or electromagnetic waves. If you believe in the existence of those things I suggest you take another look at the theory.
What mehdi did was to 100% verify the effects and then without much of a reason just dismissed them as "probing errors". They were not probing errors, they were vital parts of the experiment. If only it was this easy to disprove electromagnetism. I bet he would "disprove" gravity by showing a falling ball and saying that if only the gravitation didn't cause a probing error it would just float there.
I like how your comment says "very well done and diplomatic" almost exactly the same way that other guy's comment says, and he posted his comment a day before you... COMPLIMENT THIEF AHA
You're stupid
And this is why science is based not on authority, but on peer review.
Or facts born out of evidence? You could argue that a bunch of professors could claim something erroneous and it would still be peer review (collective delusion or even collective error in methodology). But they cannot dispute facts.
@@youtubasoarus Be careful saying that. Anti-vaxxers and flat-earthers dispute facts all the time.
Consistently reproducible results i'd say.
"What if i test your theory this way" which is exactly what mehdi is doing and coming up with a different result. Hence, theory needs adjusting.
But then it isn't really is it? Never really has been, there's probably more politics in the scientific world than in the White House. Science is dead like in around the world in 80 days, it's all about theory and what theory is popular.
@@fordman7479 110% agree
Teacher: The test isn't complicated
The test:
Teacher: predicts result,
Teacher: conducts experiment
Measurement: agrees with predictions
Former engineer: Nooooooo! You can't hit me!
I like how respectful this video was towards one of the greatest minds in out current time. Its not bad to disagree with someone and politely explain why. This is a great science video with awesome explanation AND a great guide to social communication. Good for you EB!
"Current time" !!!!
Smart guy yes, but one of the greatest minds of our time? Hmm. Hardly Stephen Hawking.
He is fuckin' smart, but far from the greatest minds.
@@88werwolfhun88 that why I said "ONE OF the greatest minds". Otherwise I would have said THE greatest mind.
If Lewin was so smart he wouldn't have been stripped of his emeritus professorship for sexually harassing students.
Arguing about incomparable achievements is pointless. So is the fetishization of hands-on knowledge. Takes all sorts to make the world go round.
May I suggest an alternative test for probing this circuit:
Rather than having the probe wires in the same plane as the resistor loop, instead have the wires perpendicular to the plane of the loop (parallel to the changing magnetic field). Thus, no EMF would be introduced into them until they are sufficiently far away to make the effects negligible.
good girl
The alternative would be to use a real transformer and a AC supply...but clearly electrical engineers already know how transformers work.
also suggested that way, then prob won't affect by EMF
I will try this later this week
The probes in walter lewin's experiment are not affected by the changing magnetic field already, because in the external loops there's not much going on, there you can safely apply kirchhoff's loop rule and that's why you can measure Vr1 and Vr2, because the same voltage is applied on the scope
would it be possible for you to start a lecture series about circuit analysis? i believe you are the best teacher i know. theory combined with actual applications/experimentations is the best way to learn.
i haven't been bored in any of your videos. you're so good! more voltage times current to you sir!
That would be great...
Bring this to the top, people! We need more Electro101 videos!
My god..... How about you stop writing cheesy comments and go and force times distance.
I'll support this ❤️
Ramon Cristopher Calam this would be highly appreciated!!!!!
If you don't understand anything, it's fine. He is not explaining it you, he is explaining it to Walter Lewin XD
This is the comment I was longing to hear....though I could grasp it up , still I didn't feel like I completely got everything he said
hahahahaha
You are just the alibi for the RUclips revenue
@@karoly365 truth hurts man, but truth is truth
It's high school physics
This and the follow-up part 2 video are my two very favorite videos of yours! Your passion is for the science itself...finding the truth...This is the same passion, Faraday, Maxwell, Feynman, and the other greats all shared...You're in good company! Thank you for this series and for the inks to the counter-arguments by Lewin...
Always express you thaughts. Just because he wrote 15 science books doesn't mean he Is right, or that he Is smarter than you.
Yes!
And if it is a teacher it also doesn't matter
Matija Lekovic there is no point of saying who's smarter or right, his point of view differ to that of ElectroBOOM, that's all. No matter who's correct in the end as you learn everyday, either of them will learn the truth that will change their perceptive positively 👍.
Tako je
We are taught the periodic table of elements when it's a world of isotopes, neither idea or the science is wrong, but it's complicated.
He's definitely smarter but smarter doesn't mean you know everything. He may know the math but can he make bread? Easy thing to do even a child can but I'll bet if you left him alone with all the ingredients he would have to mix them up many times before he came up with something resembling bread. Taught a lot of people to make bread and the amount of ways people find to screw it up is amazing.
This is a risk one encounters when delving outside of ones field of expertise. By ignoring the transformer created in his model, Lewin made a mistake that you clearly identify. Well done!
Electrical Engineering is Applied Physics but I get your point
I came to the same conclusion before even watching this video:
Spooky phantom transformer
In true internet popcorn fashion, I'm trying to find out who's winning the argument here but I'm not reaching a quick answer. For example, I'm not certain Lewin ignores the transformer issue. See freepdfhosting.com/d5fc27ec92.pdf for the notes accompanying that lecture 16, check out Test 1 and Test 2.
@@jimmoriarty6964 but the dude's field of expertise is astronomy
@@clusterfork
I think where this came from is that Dr. Lewin forgot to also include the transformer coupling to the wires that go to his oscilloscope. He sort of assumed that his oscilloscope is directly observing the voltage at those points.
Or it could be that be knows what is wrong perfectly well and uses this as a way of finding the really bright students that figure out why this happens.
What I got (reinforced) from this is that even the wire is a circuit component. Since the sense wire folds back on itself and follows about the same path back around, it induces nearly equal but opposite current from the wire that it's adjacent to, cancelling itself out. So you only read the effects of current through the opposite resistor. At least, that's what appears to be happening. He touched on that near the end when he drew in the hidden transformer.
Hi, I'm a theoretical physicist. I don't think Prof. Lewin was completely wrong, but I don't think your reasoning is wrong either. I agree with your calculations, but I think you are not applying Kirchhoff's law as is usually understood from the physicist's point of view. One may argue that Prof. Lewin is also wrong for the same matter when he says that Kirchhoff's law is sometimes wrong. It is never wrong: it's just that it does not apply on certain systems. In the end the problem, as I perceive it, is a semantic and not a physics one.
What I am certain, though, is that Lewin proved himself to act rude and arrogant in that comment box. Your objection was completely legit and he had no right to call you an uneducated.
As a mechanical engineer and amateur electrician, I was here for type a comment like this one literally. I totally agree with you. Dr. Lewin may right about KVL is not applicable on some circuits but that doesn't make the law "wrong" because it is not a theory. It is a "Law". Even if Mehdi is not right at all, it is not ethical to call him "uneducated".
As an asshole. you were all wrong.
@@tealiedie So Mr. Asshole. What is the truth? I am looking forward to.
@sudan suwal Mr. Suwal, please could you explain which argument that I posted above wrong? I am really wondering it. Actually not intend to kidding. I just want to know if I misunderstood something in electrical circuits. I'll be wait for your response. Good day.
You are completely right.
The professor is making the mistake that measurement of an experiment has to be the same regardless of the probes.
The fact that you get different results measuring the same thing means that something is wrong with the experiment,
automatically any conclusion is wrong.
Testing Kirchhoff's law in the professor ‘s experiment is the first mistake.
The conclusion is a ridiculous mistake.
I’m a professor so I can say what ever I want that is no mistake.
That is a fact.
Great scientists admit when they are wrong and let everybody learn from their mistakes; those other scientists get their ego punctured.
Indeed. Science is about the continually challenging and testing ideas and theories. Peer review is a cornerstone.
If you refuse to permit your claims to be challenged then you're a religion!
It doesnt necessarily have to be ego, but it can be very deeply rooted ways of understanding the principle. Especially for someone who does nothing but this for decades, you cant just step back and view it anew.
Nope. Walter Lewin is a great scientist, but great scientists are still human beings and still get caught up on personal bugbears that don't hold up to scrutiny.
@@nialltracey2599 He's also a pervert who has had his status and professorship stripped by MIT for sexually harassing his students online.
Howwwwlyy Shhieeeett!!
When I heard "2 different Voltages across the same 2 points", I questioned my life and all circuits that I ever made ^^
Now that I saw the great explaination it all came together for me.
But I do agree with you. It does make a lot on sense when you think about it.
You're not alone.
I come to this video from time to time hoping I can understand all the concepts explained here a lot better. Out of all Mehdi's videos, this one does even more hard science than Mehdi usually does.
That being said, I have learned quite a bit from this great dude, and I do appreciate the fact that he shocks himself a lot just for the laughs and to enhance the learning experience.
Maybe he was trying to challenge some unknown genius to step forward and call him out??
wish that was the case, but no. Watch my next video on this... hey did you call me a genius?!
@@ElectroBOOM Good catch! I saw the next video, too. You have inspired me, after binge watching all of your videos in one week, to finally start my new channel I have been thinking about for about a year (and to do some of your builds starting with the rolled capacitor). I may not agree with all of your politics, but I still think you are a genius :)
@@ElectroBOOM CAN YOU PLEASE GIVE ME A MULTIMETER OR RØDE MICROPHONE PLEASE I BEG YOU !! PLEASE !!!
@@arshuarshaq5043 FO Beggar
@@Akarsh- mind your words ! And he is a teacher to me !
I love this about a person of science. Challenge even the most established idea. Your humble nature shows, and is really appreciated. Good vid, as you demonstrate how the exact positioning of sensory wires makes a massive difference.
4:48 "I have a coil or solenoid"... Me: This is going to explode.
4:57 "The resistor limit the current to 10-12 Amps"... Me: This is going to explode.
5:30 "Now I'll measure across these two points..." Me: This time for sure.
not today my friend, not today.... he had to be serious when refuting against a distinguished professor
Whenever you see him use a capacitor and plug something into a power supply it's a done deal
That is true i though the same way 😂! I am not used to this kind of video from him !
Don't worry, the pulse is short.
From another Electrical Engineer- you got my vote👍
I've got an awesome relatively easy invention in electronics. would you be interested in a collab for improving the design, etc? maybe even patenting?
my vote too
As ways Mehdi>pedophiles
Great discoveries are made by those who question the leaders of the field
@ That's the most ridiculous thing I've read today. Theories are never against reality. That kind of thinking bottlenecks our progress in science.
@@nullbeyondo No theory describes reality perfectly, it is pretty obvious he talks about science's continuous ability to find better and more precise theories by challenging its previous ones all the time.
@E it's not about being right or not, it's about testing, challenging and learning, that's the entire point of science. And most of the things ever tried don't work, but when they do, then we move forward, slowly but one step at a time.
Any good teacher knows this.
@E I think he is, tbh. Old people become so bonheaded that they refuse to listen to younger people.
And for Dr.Lewin to call him uneducated when his arguments are valid is immoral and i don't like him for that reason...
It's like trying to tell an old mechanic that what he is saying is wrong, they will just scoff and say "i have been doing this all my life so you can´t teach me anything"
@@PonaHD ElectroBOOM said some things right and other things wrong.
Here’s one example, said at least two times:
10:54 Nope, the voltage across two points in the presence of a time-varying magnetic field is not unique. Theoretically (if you’re computing the induced voltage), the induced voltage depends on the path taken to compute the line integral of the electric field. Practically, it depends on how you position the cables of the probes, as Lewin and EB showed in their respective videos.
You may say “it’s bad probing”, but I’d reply the following. As was demonstrated in the videos by Lewin and EB, voltage depends on the two points as well as the path. Now I ask you: “what’s considered the correct path to measure an open-circuit voltage, and why?”. I think the answer is: there’s no wrong path, all paths are correct.
11:48 Wrong. There was *always* two different voltages across the two points. Again, voltage depends on the path taken when computing the line integral of the E field. What you claim to be "the only voltage between two points" is actually the voltage assuming a particular path; assume another path and you'll get a different voltage.
---
Here's another example:
8:41 In the circuits being studied at this timestamp, certainly the RL circuit with the switch and battery acts as one winding of a transformer, and the circuit with the two resistors only acts as another winding of the transformer, so EB's explanation is correct here. But what if instead of creating the time-varying magnetic field with the RL circuit we instead create it with a moving permanent magnet? I wouldn't consider the magnet as a primary winding of a transformer, would you? So in this case we can no longer consider the circuit with the two resistors as the secondary winding of a transformer. So EB's explanation is no longer valid.
I fully agree that the model is missing an inductor. The ability for a wire to be able to have current induced from a changing magnetic field needs to be modelled in the circuit as an inductance. Just like the lumped element model for transmission lines.
Exactly.
Every wire with a length longer than zero has inductance, no matter how low its resistance is.
Had these been ideal wires with 0 inductance would mean they have to also have a length of 0, this would make the diameter of this circle also 0 giving it no magnetic loop area and making it impossible for a magnetic field to induce a voltage in it, hence voltage on all nodes would also be 0V. This then matches up with the circuit of two resistors, there is no component capable of creating a voltage.
But where does the inductance go in the circuit? It is distributed everywhere in the loop, including in the resistors. Lumping it in a specific place is not an accurate representation of what's going on.
@@Steve-du6ms Each resistor can be replaced by its resistance and a series inductor (ESL).
Each real life wire can be replaced by a resistor and a series inductor (ESR & ESL).
These elements are joined together with circuit diagram wires, which have no properties in real life.
@@@Steve-du6ms
Every length of wire in the physical circuit would be replaced by a inductor in the schematic with a value equal to the amount of total loop inductance it contributes.
Additionally all these inductors need to have a arrow drawn between them or a line along them to indicate they are coupled inductors that share the same magnetic field and each inductor should be given a dot at one end to indicate it going clockwise or counterclockwise to this field.
When the probe connections are moved around to the left or to the right of the circuit this causes them to flip from going clockwise to counterclockwise, this flips the dot on the inductor, indicating it will create a voltage in the opposite direction hence why the probes going to the left or to the right side produce a different result on the oscilloscope. Once you include all these inductors the sum of voltages equations you should get a pretty close match to what the oscilloscope is showing.
EDIT: Oh and you also need to include the inductor of the solenoid in the middle, it is also coupled to the common magnetic field and is connected to a voltage source. That is the voltage source that is powering this entire circuit.
@@berni8k The inductance needs to be added everywhere in the loop. This means that the voltage is induced everwhere in the loop, even within the physical resistors. So the model would include many, many mini-inductors, each with an induced voltage. The difficulty I have is that this cannot simply be lumped in a convenient place. So it is not obvious to me that the neat KVL circuit, with a source and lumped elements, emerges nicely from this situation.
Uh, if you get different readings, dependent an moving your scope/sense wires around, that might be the hint, that your sense wires and scope position are not just sensing wires, but part of the circuit you created.
Exactly. Needs a bigger model
yep， as long as there is an alternating magnetic field through those wires. there is going to be an issue. Try with shielded wires and that will work
Yeah, I don't get how Walter Lewin didn't see this. It's something you learn really early on in physics, and something that definitely shouldn't make you think that something like Kirchhoffs Law is broken.
One of my subscribers just turned me onto your videos. Absolutely magnificent stuff your brilliant! Going through most of your videos now it's going to take me awhile, but I'm having a blast. Thanks for sharing
"My mom thinks I'm mostly OK" Words to live by brother.
I will watch this in front of my family, so they will think I'm smart
😂😂
@@animeshpathak3921 Really? Come on there is no need for that, Apologize.
Ok.
😂😂i think that i am the only one
Clever man😂😂😂😂😂
It was an excellent demonstration of the importance of considering all the details in a scientific experiment. In the demonstration, the hypothesis is raised that the consecrated Kirchhoff's Law could be nonsense, depending on the side where the instrument that measures the same induced voltage is positioned - an obviously absurd hypothesis. If the measuring instrument (oscilloscope) is to the right or left of the same circuit, the voltage reading should be the same - but in the demonstration it did not occur. Thus, the hypothesis that the said Law would be flawed was proven. The layman certainly went unnoticed that in both measurements, right and left, the circuit was not the same. The circuit, in fact, is not only what the demonstrator draws, but also the wires, cables and the internal impedance of the oscilloscope should be considered. As it is electromagnetic induction, any opening between wires will have voltage induction by the variation of the magnetic flux that surrounds them. The measuring circuit, to be the same with the instrument on the right and left, should be what was drawn by the demonstrator at 12:04. Soon after, he shows in practice that he did not follow what he drew; leaving again a new half turn wire near to the experimental loop over the magnetic field generator. It was an excellent joke of illusion. Thus, the hypothesis of failure of Kirchhoff's Law can not be confirmed.
Oh, I worked in that field - years ago. The KVL is derived from "E = -grad( phi )" and the corresponding integration theorem.
If there is an time varying magnetic field, the true electric field is "E = - grad(phi) - (dA/dt)" . I.e. the KVL holds in the electro-quasistatic approximation assumption, that dA/dt is approximately 0. The KVL is false otherwise.
I had been wondering about Dr. Lewin´s experiment since the first time I saw it. I watched it several times and had come to a similar conclusion.
Since this is an air core transformer, any nearby wire is part of that transformer. Magnetic fields can have very complicated effects.
Basically I´m glad you adressed this.
Kirchhoff's law holds only in cases the circuit size is much smaller than the wave length that passes through the circuit from the source. This is called a Quasistatic approximation, wiki link below.
The simplest example is an antenna:
An antenna broadcasts an electromagnetic field to the environment by a changing current that runs inside it. If Kirchhoff's law was true, there would be no current running through the antenna (it is cut off by KCL KVL laws).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasistatic_approximation
@@noamgraham9006 no that is not true at least not fully. Also there is also the possibility of "short" antennas that are smaller than a quarter or half waverlength. but that is not what lewin is trying to show. here he is not working in HF areas
I remember having a similar conversation with one of my instructors as well. He simply said, high tolerance applications, use Kirchhoff's Law. For low tolerance applications, use Faraday's Law. I doubt I would have caught this.
This clears up a lot for me.
Being an accomplished physicist does not preclude him from being wrong.
But he happens to be right. Its not hard to see that inducing current round a loop means the voltage also goes up round the loop one-way, so can never sum to zero.
Being a youtuber does not mean you know how to teach. The professor was giving a lecture to students, and showing them how not knowing the limitations of Kirchhoff, will produce wrong results. He made an experiment... he did not take the limitations into consideration (he did not correct the result by use of clever probing)... he obtained the wrong result... he showed his students this fact... his students now remember that the limitations need to be taken into consideration and do correct measurements or whatever. That is all. All these people on youtube showing how the experiment should have been done, are completely missing the point of the experiment.
@@andrei-lucianserb1771 people in academia that never go into industry aren't as smart as people who go into industry and use the science and mathematics applicably. Reading books and regurgitating knowledge to students isn't useful
The first serious video in this channel 😂
A lot of love to Elctro Boooom
Dear Mehdi Mercury, I am (was) an electrical freshmen. After watching all your videos over the weekend, I decided to switch to Business & Management because I can no longer solder or plug in something to the outlet without imagining sparks.
Lol
Well that's a negative effect.
Don't worry, this panther will carry the EE torch.
You just invented Polite Roasting
He lives in Canada, eh? :D
Electric Blanketing, then?
That's been a staple of good science since forever..
Like a true Canadian!
As a medical student I have no idea what I'm doing here lol
It’s the mystical power of his eyebrows 😂
you are not alone dude..hahaha
😆 well you did learn something!
Same.
When you have to use a defibrillator this might come in handy.
This video illustrates why I subscribe to your channel. While the majority of your videos have an important entertainment value, they're based on scientific principles. I appreciate the level of critical thinking you are able to apply to the many scientific laws of electricity. Thank you for the work you put into your videos.
Sadly, he missed the point of the proffessor. By definition KVL wall is not akways true, BUT you can fix that in practice. From scientific point of view the proffesor is rigth, from practical point of view it does not matter or almost
Mehdi is soo near to 2M...
He is a electronics channel not chemistry how can he be near to 2 moles?!
@@alanwolf313 hahaha
And every single one of his subscribers is probably a uni student
@@alanwolf313 Lol, That's BRILLIANT!
@@alanwolf313 M actually refers to the concentraion c , M = Molarity
From Maxwells equations, the electric field E = minus grad V minus derivative of magnetic vector potential A. Obviously, mathematically, the sum of grad V around a loop is zero (~V2-V1+V1-V2). The question is, does the voltmeter measure grad V or E or something else in portions where A matters. It clearly doesn’t measure grad V, because the result depends on how you position its leads. The magnetic field affects the leads of the voltmeter and induces an additional E, thus current, inside them, which depends on how you position its leads in this magnetic field. The additional E is given by the rate of change of the total magnetic flux (magnetic field times area) through the closed loop formed by the meter leads connected to some circuit element. So, even if your leads follow the wires of the circuit, when you flip their position perfectly, grad V changes sign, while the additional E doesn’t flip sign. So, to eliminate it, the loop of your meter leads have to be parallel to the magnetic field (zero flux).
As someone uneducated in the field, I came to the same conclusion before you finished talking. I would love to learn why you would be wrong as I currently don't see it. Your arguments make perfect sense to me. The probe wires are part of this experiment when it is setup like this.
I'd go a step further and say that this is one of the cases where the fact that components are not, in fact, ideal, mathematical abstractions of components comes into effect. The wires have resistance and inductance.
I came to the same conclusion already when watching Dr. Lewins video.
A wire going trough a magnetic field can't just be assumed to have zero voltage. No matter how low its resistance is, it will always have some inductance that reacts to the field.
I could see however that looking at it from a theoretical point of view one could come to such an conclusion. In such theoretical examples you can never include all parasitic effects because the whole thing would just become a mess that literally takes weeks to calculate my hand. Its easy to miss a single significant parasitic effect and still have the math work out and seam logical. While on the other hand me being an engineer who deals with practical problems i know that a trace on my circuit board is not a perfect ideal connection between two nodes. I know from experience when a SPICE cirucit simulation behaves strangely that i need to model in some non ideal or parasitic effect. I have been bitten in the ass before by "simply ignore parasitics because they are so small they don't matter", my circuits didn't work how i wanted and every time it happened i learned how that particular parasitic effect is important and how to include it into my design process. You can't remove parasitics by simply ignoring them, you can only understand them and design them in as part of your product.
@@skonkfactory Even if the wires were ideal with zero resistance, there would still be a voltage across them. There isn't a voltage drop being measured across the wire. There is a voltage induced in the wire due to magnetic induction. If the wire were ideal, it would just give you a more accurate reading. The mistake that was made was not treating the circuit like a loop, but instead as separate parts. If you were to do the same with a transformer, you would conclude that KVL does not apply since the voltage applied is much higher or longer than the voltage read. But we know better since the change in voltage is found by measuring the coils.
@@megamixa Right, exactly- the wires have inductance (specifically, mutual inductance with the driving coil).
@@megamixa An ideal wire would have zero loop area and zero mutual inductance. It would literally be a circuit node of zero dimension.
It's very brave of you to challenge someone like that. Keep it up
1:20 everyone.
Imagine this world if just more people had Mehdi's scientific and philosophical humbleness
@@therealb888 that's racist
9:56
"Why did we read 0V across the sense lines?"
Because the path is different. At 9:26, your measurement loop encircles the flux, and the scope’s resistance allows a a path for the current to flow which arises from the induced emf from that flux. At 9:40, you’ve arranged your measurement loop such that it doesn’t encircle any flux, so there is no induced emf in that loop.
In both cases, your scope is responding to induced current caused by the flux change thrugh the loop it forms with the probes and the wire arc. In the second case, there is little to no flux passing through the measurement loop as it doesn't encircle the solenoid -> no induced current -> no measured voltage. at 9:47 you find that you can get different results depending on how much flux you enclose. I can draw a picture if this isn't clear.
10:03
"If the voltage here is +V"
But... It isn't. There isn't a localized potential difference there. Your previous measurement of +V depended on the path. Then you changed the path. This is covered in Belcher’s notes in the second video.
But my intuition with this one is still shaky... Faraday’s law specifies that in the circle strictly around the loop, not including where the probe wires diverge, there is still am emf of 1V. In this particular circle, the impedance is high so there would be no resultant current across the gap, but how should we think of or visualize this EMF? imagebin.ca/v/4Qi4j6Awhq4w
This all sounds like simple oversight? I saw the problem immediately with the way the sensor wires were arranged at time of sensing, almost seems like he's intentionally trying to fool people. A magic trick..but terrible
Medhi, I love your channel. I'm sorry to say both of you are arguing past each other... I'm a physicist who plays an EE at work so let me see if I can offer my 2 cents...
The secondary of the transformer you refer to is an effective lumped element representation of the mutual inductance between the solenoid and the loop with the resistors. There is a secondary for the sense wire loop as well.
However, the lumped element approach isn't general. The mutual inductance has to be calculated for a particular geometry, not a circuit, using you guessed it... Faraday's law. So you can only model the secondary if you have already solved the emf for the system. Lumped element then can be generalized for the flux profile so you can change the waveform, which makes it a powerful approach for circuit analysis, and makes the EE masters happy because they can just treat it like a circuit element and do normal AC analysis.
See the appendix of Clayton Paul's book Intro to EMC for a fully worked example of this exact treatment.
Now give me a damn oscope please.
Stand in line Cheyne..lol...I want the black siglent scope.. It would look good next to my Rigol...peace brother.
I ran that through Google translate...still no wiser :(
Cheyne Scoby or in other words, there are variables that apply in specific conditions.
Cheyne Scoby "physicist" tsss.. amateur
I am a law student who desperately wanted to study physics. I've searched for law stuffs, and RUclips suggested me this. Thanks to RUclips for realising my heartaches.
Ouch, love of physics is really strong
So did you quit law to study physics?
Dr. Lewin is displaying behavior far too common in the veterened engineering academics in that he clearly believes his knowledge and opinion is higher than anyone else. It is an unfortunate side effect of hubris in this field and I've personally experienced it in many professors. Simply in the way he responded to your comments, insisting that any argument is the result of no education and only his video and lectures can educate you, all the way to that last clip you showed where he reveals that every other author and professor disagree with him and yet they're the ones that are wrong? I recall a professor refusing to allow us to use Thevenin's equivalence when analyzing BJT circuits simply because she didn't like it. Every single online tutorial, university, and textbook insists on its use over 8 KVL equations but she didn't care because her opinion with gospel. Knowledge =/= education and that's incredibly important to keep in mind. You can have all the knowledge in the world but if you don't or can't question that knowledge then you're not well educated.
" insisting that any argument is the result of no education and only his video and lectures can educate you, all the way to that last clip you showed where he reveals that every other author and professor disagree with him and yet they're the ones that are wrong?"
Sadly sounds like the attitude you get from the likes of anti-vaxers and other conspiracy theorists. Even really intelligent people can fall into this trap.
Very good point. You can get a nobel prize (in STEM that is) but still end up talking nonsense.
Pretty insulting how he approaches Mehdi's request. Theres such a thing as confidence in science, but there is also blatant arrogance.
I was lucky. When I changed career (I got bored with electronics as a profession as it takes 2 hours to design something then 8 months to do the damn paperwork). Several of the lecturers who were international leading experts in their fields said roughly the same thing: "This is my educated opinion, there have been many other educated opinions over the years that have been ultimately proven to be wrong. Remember the same is true of my opinion - just because I have a PhD does not mean I cannot be proven wrong at some point in the future." Basically we got marked on how many differing opinions we engaged with and how we analysed the evidence. In my dissertation I even got my supervisor questioning parts of his own PhD thesis.
Reminds me of medical academia. Most doctors today keep treating patients with medication that just makes them worse. Diabetes, for example. Countles and countless of cases where it's reverted by change in diet but they refuse to even take a look at it. Makes you wonder if theres a big pharma mafia after all. Fortunately there are more and more doctors leaving their ego at the door and raising their voice.
New to the channel (probably one of the best RUclips channels yet). Love the video! and as an EE student, this totally makes sense, and I couldn't agree more. Keep them coming!
Serious question: how is it possible that such a fundamental question doesn't yet have a solution that the scientific community agrees on? It looks very weird that nobody has encountered, and explained this before with some sort of peer review or it's just Lewin getting it wrong?
Yes
Seems like Lewin is the black sheep in this debate. As both Lewin himself and Mehdi note, the majority of literature suggests that KVL holds in general.
Makes sense then. Cheers
@@ElectroBOOM /r/inclusiveOr
@@ElectroBOOM regarding your video for the charged comb
No i don't think that current flows just because thecharge is moving .but the question is that if the current flows where would the charge flow to . there must be a circuit or path for the charges to flow and be considered current .for example take the case of me having a battery with me as i travel in a car the battery had charges and the car is moving that would not be current .
I'm really confused can someone explain me where I'm wrong
I dont know much about this topic, but from what i have learned in my grade 12 physics is that the nature of the induced electric field is not conservative(since it is induced by a changing magnetic field which is also not conservative) meaning the work done per unit charge in a closed loop is not zero because the field direction is always along or opposite to the direction of the line integral, in simple terms. I do believe that KVL doesnt stand true for this case as it is derived keeping in mind the conservative nature of ordinary electric field.
Well, you know more than Mehdi does. You are correct.
Why don't you churn out a thesis paper on this?
Because there is no dispute. All he did was replace the changing magnetic field with a transformer to make kirchoff's laws work because you can remove the magnetic field from the circuit. Thats nothing new
Some of the biggest idiots I know have doctoral degrees.
Because he isn't proving anything new, like he said most of science agrees with him but Dr. Lewin does not (but he didn't write a paper on it), so simply he's disagreeing with Dr. Lewin's disagreement with this law in physics.
that's all well and good but perfectly acceptable and _useful_ papers have been written on less.
Science needs rigor, and a paper isn't pointless just for confirming something widely believed to be true.
@@DrummerRF The argument is that there is a "hidden" inductor created through the measurement device, is it not? Which is why this is up for discussion in the first place. Proving that through math and experimentation surely could have a paper written on the results. Doesn't necessarily need to be a thesis paper.
This took some head scratching but I think I see the disagreement here.
I usually explain KVL by analogy to elevation: if you walk in any closed loop here on planet Earth, you must necessarily have ascended exactly as much as you descended, because you end up at the same elevation.
Dr. Lewin, I'm sure, would tell me that elevation is an incomplete analogy for voltage. If there's wind, for example, it'll be harder to walk into the wind than have the wind at your back. In this analogy, a changing magnetic field in a loop would be like trying to walk around a small cyclone: go with the cyclone's rotation and the wind is at your back, go against the cyclone's rotation and the wind is in your face. In that situation, "voltage" becomes harder to define because which path one takes between point A and B affects the work required to get from point A to B.
Mehdi is arguing that the "wind" from the "cyclone" can be incorporated into the model, and so the "voltage difference between two points" becomes well-defined once more depending on where the cyclone's wind is worked into the circuit. In a sense they're both right and folks should really just go with whichever model helps them accomplish whatever they're trying to do.
(But if you have two pieces of equipment measuring the same thing and they disagree, something's probably up and you need to recheck your experiment.)
More people need to read this comment!
There simply is no potential in this case. In your analogy, that's like trying to find the elevation of a point on Escher's staircase. Voltage is still defined, but depends on the path. That's the whole point.
@@Kalumbatsch I'd hesitate to use the Escherian Stairwell as an explanation for what's happening here, since it can't actually occur in the real world. Unless you mean to use the self-contradicting nature of the stairwell as a proof-by-contradiction that the elevation model isn't adequate for this situation? In that case it sounds like you're agreeing that the analogy is limited. (Sorry that I'm having difficulty understanding what you mean - the content of your reply appears to be a summary/reinforcement of my comment, but it reads more like a refutation/correction and that dissonance is throwing me off.)
Well, you said "Dr. Lewin, I'm sure, would tell me that elevation is an incomplete analogy for potential energy."
It isn't, elevation is a perfect analogy for a scalar potential, because the gravitational potential is one. But in the case of a changing magnetic field, there is no electric potential. There is no way to assign one to every point because there is no potential that the electric field is the gradient of. Escher's stairwell is what you get when you apply the analogy to this situation.
Voltage is explained as a difference in Potential between two points. Here is the problem : Potential is a term that is mathematically defined. You can only have a potential if you are in a conservative Vector Field. A conservative vector field is equivalent to having any loop integral to be 0.
*You can't just can't use the term potential in a non-conservative Field, because "Potential" is a well defined mathematical term !*
The E field produced by a changing magnetic field is rotational and therefore can't have a defined potential and thus its values between two points depend on the path along which you make the measurements, as long as you believe in Maxwell's equations and vector calculus you must accept this even if you're able to come up with a specific example where they happen to be the same.
Exactly, the E-field is non-conservative if B is changing, ie curl(E) depends on dB/dt - mathematically that breaks Kirchoff's law by definition.
@@MarkTillotson Bur Kirchoff deals with not Electrical fields, it deals with voltages - so curl doesn't actually tell you much here since you don't need derivation; you need integration.
@@lux_expat But voltages ARE defined with respect to electric fields. V is defined to be the line integral of E, along a path. In electrostatics, V will be path independent, while if you include changing fields, V is no longer path independent. This is why "the way you probe" now matters. Now one way of "saving" KVL is to think of the emf as a "potential", which is ElectroBoom's point of view.
"Saving" it works in practice; one can measure "voltages" such that KVL will hold. But on a fundamentally theoretical level, KVL already broke when the system included the changing magnetic field.
@@DamianDailisan That's my intention to emphasise too actually :) Voltage is potential (at least it is how we are taught :) )
@@lux_expat voltage is like a difference in potencial electric energy only in electrostactics or in low frecuencies
I agree. I'm an OLD electronic tech/engineer and have seen this sort of thing come up as a problem in a industrial installation.
8:53 Dr. Lewin ended up not being a nice guy
Nah he’s a jackass like all old smart fucks who think they know everything.
@@outros5062 is it real
@@anantapadmanabhmyatagiri you have internet. Try look it up. As far as the time goes, it is real.
@ your reply made me laugh so hard that my ribs are paining now.
He's a damn good physics teacher..... that's it! He's not a good person at all, just watch his interviews( search physics wallah walter lewin interview)
never argue with Dr. Walter Lewin.. he will Le Win
Nobody is arguing. It's more of a healthy scientific debate on an important topic.
😂
😂😂
@Daniel Stefanov Me right now: (chuckles) I screwed up.
What is this, a rage comic?
Why do I watch this? I understand nothing.
I've asked myself that very question.
I'm as smart as a bag of rocks. All I hear is scientific gibberish
@@johnfarris6152 If you don't understand the terms you're learning nothing our minds are great but they're not magical
just learn 4Head
I’m trying to learn through osmosis.
lol
Two truly good and decent men struggling to teach the next generation!.. they should be proud of each other!.. Im proud of you ElectroBOOM!
Kirchoff's Voltage Law always works under one of two possible conditions. The first condition is that you wait long enough for the system that you are measuring voltage from to stabilize, or alternatively that it is a lumped parameter system (this would assume that the wires connecting components are negligible). The concepts explaining why this is so are summarized under the topic of transmission lines.
With the help of the telegrapher equations, derived from Maxwell's equations considering a source-free space and the transmission lines that carry the signal, one can analyse the response of a signal in a circuit looking at it as a wave that travels at a fraction of the speed of light. This fast moving signal does not behave according to Kirchoff's voltage law until it has reflected and super-positioned onto itself sufficiently many times to stabilize to the expected Kirchoff's voltage. In other words, Kirchoff's voltage law is not wrong, it's only wrong to apply it to non-stabilized circuits or with non-zero length lines (which would not be a lumped parameter model) between components.
With regards to the measuring of two different voltages between the same two points I completely agree with ElectroBoom. Not even at the fast speeds of waves traveling on transmission lines, given no reflections, will you be able to measure two different voltages at the same points. This has less to do with KVL and more to do with simple equa-potential of a point.
The potential difference between two points in a medium, from Maxwell's equations, can be defined as the integral of the Electric field between the two points along some chosen simple path. Now, in the case where the B-field is changing, you can simply treat the total E-field as the sum of the regular E-field and the induced E-field (which is the partial time derivative of the magnetic vector potential) and voila, you have a net E-field from which a specific potential difference can be calculated. Having one equation and one unknown implies, from simple mathematics, that it can definitely be solved.
Every wire in a practical circuit may be considered an ideal resistor and inductor, no matter how short it is or how low resistance it may be.
I find it a little disconcerting that a professor at a leading university who is well accomplished in his field proposes a radical change to a commonly accepted theory and then doesnt want to argue it because he is tired of arguing. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It is a basic tennant of science imo. You dont get to make a great claim and then refuse to have the conversation and thereby win by default.
sjm4306 Not comparing him to Lewin by any measure, but we had an EE professor at my somewhat reputable school in Canada who'd make outrageous and false claims (for instance, at one point trying to convince us KCL did not apply to a node in a circuit) to justify obvious mistakes in his notes and solutions, and then would get mad at people arguing with him, never backing off. He was also very corrupt grading wise.
He was far from being the only professor that got me wondering how the hell they made it into academia.
As part of a student group, I also once had a chat with a recent Nobel physics laureate that visited our school. He didn't make any outrageous claims (not that we'd be in any position to argue with him anyway,) but was also very full of himself and rudely dismissive of many comments.
Not that I'm saying Lewin is like this, I personally loved his physics lectures and watched them all, but I always thought people at places like MIT didn't suffer from this attitude, and always looked at it in high regard for exactly this reason, and this is highly disappointing.
@@f4dy "Not that I'm saying Lewin is like this"
No, Lewin is saying that through his replies, just look at the discussion at this link (highlighted comment being ElectroBooms): ruclips.net/video/nGQbA2jwkWI/видео.html&lc=UgwnKTFxT6OD-POhOc54AaABAg
To me the worst part is that this means that any *other* faults in his lectures will remain without any corrections from Lewin since he is ignoring all other experts (textbooks, etc) and won't even look at a video that shows why he's getting the results he's getting.
@Steve Yzerman Fan what do you mean?
He's retired and old as hell.
he's a grumpy old physicist who is bestowed in his ways after teaching this numerous times. It would be a kick in the nuts to know that his theory was wrong all along due to shitty probing
11:00 KVL states that, i*R1+i*R2=0 (i !=0) => R1=-R2, given that a resistor is a "passive lumped element" and this equation couses a "passive element rule violation" since one of the resistances is below zero. So in that case KVL does not hold and the induced voltage should be calculated by the "integral E dl" which means that there exist electric field change (voltage drop) through the loop wire which has 0 resistance we assume generally and that is a contradiction.
Good points. Presumably you've watched ElectroBOOM's follow-up video in which he persists with this line of reasoning with respect to a lumped parameter model of the Lewin experiment.
It's amazing what mental gymnastics people propose to rescue Kirchhoff's loop rule. For instance they would rather abandon Ohm's Law instead. Any reputable physics text notes that Ohm's Law applies in the quasistatic situation and we must therefore explain the Lewin experiment as the effect of both solenoidal and irrotational (electrostatic) electric fields acting along the secondary loop path. ElectroBOOM's explanation is one proposed by many. Unfortunately it is fundamentally flawed and amounts to a misdirection which, if taken as true, will lead prospective students into the same world of confusion originally suffered by Robert Romer.
"If you do not agree you need to be educated...This is very very basic physics and I never argue with people who think they know but who do not... The stunning demo at the end of my lecture..."
His attitude doesn't mean he's wrong about this particular thing, but it does mean he's not worth listening to.
His attitude also means I'm not at all surprised about this:
news.mit.edu/2014/lewin-courses-removed-1208
@@87knox meh... nowadays everything can be considered sexual harassment if one lady decides it is one.
This attitude is simply badge flashing. Which is sad for a scientist.
In this case it is at least 11 women he was found to have sexually harassed, and my quick skim through Inside Higher Ed's January 2015 article on the matter shows that MIT was provided plenty of evidence and did a thorough investigation into said evidence
@@666aron not when the claim has supporting proof,
Read this www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/01/23/complainant-unprecedented-walter-lewin-sexual-harassment-case-comes-forward
It calls for a epic rap battles of history
Martin lewis versus Electroboom
🤣🤣 that would be awesome
He is Walter Lewin
Who is Martin Lewis? It's Walter Lewin
Hahaha lol
This is shocking! ;) I love Dr. Lewin. He is a great instructor and top of his game in physics. As a scientist, I find I am wrong daily. It is the nature of science. If we were never wrong, we would never have to do experiments, we would just write up our hypothesis--like string theorists---ouch..... Dr. Lewin, as brilliant as he is, needs a little more humble pie in his life. Assume a spherical humble pie! ;)
He already have 2 videos giving more details of his demo. Those are his response to the the fuss which arose because of this. I recommend watching them.
@@woowooNeedsFaith Saw them. This fight is over macro versus micro views where one is focused on geometry versus not. Newtons law does not completely explain Mercury's orbit but it works in most cases--versus relativity. Same with KVL vs Faraday's Law. We are arguing over that sort of case here it seems. For me the problem is that Dr. Lewin has dug his heels in and is becoming dogmatic, and that is scary. He needs to chill and recognize there is a different picture and that semantics are important.
Do you understand both of their arguments, because I don't. Lewin makes much more sense to me and has very convincing arguments where as Mehdi's presentation looks superficially good at first but has many troubling messy details in it. When I first saw this video I wanted to agree with both of them, but slowly I start slipping from that position.
Dr. Lewin is becoming dogmatic? - holy crap! To me he is simply responding to the arguments that Kirchhoff's Law always holds, which it doesn't. Mehdi's claim at 11:54 is the same as saying that measurements of Mercury's orbit are wrong, and his conclusion is that Newtons law always holds. That sounds much more dogmatic than anything Lewin has said. If something, Dr. Lewin is fighting against this wide spread "consensus" which is based on misconception(s) / sloppy reasoning.
@@woowooNeedsFaith They seem to be both right. Faraday's law takes into account geometry--it's an integral over a surface of magnetic flux of an enclosing loop. If you do the integral riqorously, you have to take into account the exact geometry and any subtle variations. It's the exact answer. KVL is a specific solution that says all the voltages are accounted for, for a loop. What needs to be thought about to bring KVL to match Faraday's law is that when you put a meter into the circuit, you are adding a loop to the circuit. And when you have two meters, you add a third loop that changes the geometry. The magnetic flux might be different in one loop over another because the geometry is not exactly the same. I think when you include the meters as part of the circuit, you can use KVL and get the same answer that Faraday's law provides. And you make a good point about my dogmatic comment. I was being a little harsh regarding Dr. Lewin because he can get so passionate about his position.
@Rich M
*And you make a good point about my dogmatic comment. I was being a little harsh regarding Dr. Lewin because he can get so passionate about his position.*
😊 Yes, he is passionate. That is something we can _easily_ agree on.
If we look at Faraday's law as given by Dr. Lewin, closed loop integral, it produces exactly Kirchhoff's voltage law in the case where magnetic field stays constant. So I would argue that both laws take exactly same geometry into account.
After investigating Lewin's issue for a while, it seems to boil down to this one reason why he is so passionate about it: ruclips.net/video/LzT_YZ0xCFY/видео.htmlm
I'm disappointed to see that Mehdi chose to ignore this when he obviously has seen the video. Instead of really trying to understand why Kirchhoff's loop rule can not be applied, he comes to wrong conclusions because he tries to explain away the observed perplexing phenomenon using modified KVL. And what comes to your "added two meters" and complications coming from added loops, you don't need them at all before you can see that the conclusion based on Mehdi's "bad probing" hypothesis are all wrong. This video shows it using very simple terms: ruclips.net/video/5be3zpj_eCY/видео.html
YES! I saw the transformer, too. The sense lines are part of the circuit! (I was just an ME, not an EE, although I am a licensed ham for what that's worth.)
The Kirchoffs Voltage Law used by Dr. Lewin and Electroboom are different. I think Dr. Lewin uses line_integral(E.dl)=0 as KVL, which definitely is incomplete, as this only says that the sum of voltages around a loop caused only by an external electric field is zero. According to this the voltage across an inductor is zero, as it is produced by a magnetic field and this is where Faraday's law comes into picture.
But the KVL used by Electroboom is "the sum of voltages around a loop (caused both by magnetic and electric fields) is zero". This includes the induced voltage across the inductor (L*di/dt, which actually is a consequence of Faraday's or Lenz's law).
So now it all comes down to which of the above versions was originally proposed by Kirchoff in his original paper.
Wwwwhaaaaatttttttttttttt?
_"it all comes down to which of the above versions was originally proposed by Kirchoff"_
Neither. Kirchhoff only talked about electromotive forces (emfs) and resistances. Remarkably, Walter Lewin also talks about an emf in his circuit, but he doesn't take it into account for his version. ElectroBOOM's version was first formulated by Maxwell and this is the version that is used to analyze circuits, see Feynman's lecture notes: www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_22.html#Ch22-S3
Take a circular loop, place an electromagnet and try to find the position of polarity of the induced emf- you can never find it, because it is not like a simple battery.
@@Theo0x89
"see Feynman's lecture notes: www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_22.html#Ch22-S3"
Feynmann wrote: "by making the many approximations we have described in Section 22-2 and summarizing the essential features of the real circuit elements in terms of idealizations, it becomes possible to analyze an electrical circuit in a relatively straightforward way."
And here is one of that approximations:
"In particular, we assume that *the varying magnetic field is restricted to a definite region in the vicinity of the coil and does not appear outside the generator* in the space between the terminals."
This assumption is clearly wrong in the case of the arrangement shown by Dr. Lewin. This is why no correct discrete model can be constructed. In strict meaning this assumption is not true for the majority of the real circuits. It is rather an approximation (as referred in 22-3). And the error of this approximation can be enormous in same cases as Dr. Lewin demonstrated. I have experience with even worse results. An error of these approximations can happen to be 40 dB higher than the quantity to be measured. This is why Lewin's example is not just correct and interesting, but important also for engineers.
Kirchoff original paper does not have varying electric or magnetic fields. So Lewin is right.
I watched that class a couple of years ago and I found it very weird. I assumed he was talking about some advanced definitions and that the model of the "imaginary" inductor as a voltage source was a way to make KVL work out for induction machines. Now I feel so much satisfied with your reasoning ♥. Also I like to imagine the straight wire as a collection of tiny inductors in series, even the resistor itself acting as one, so that is NOT ok to assume 0 voltage drop just because the resistance negligible
I think one have to do more practicals than reading theories. But sadly our school curriculums have no time for practicals, so only 15% learning.
ElectroBoom sir, you're a great master. Thanks for this.
Kvl is a simplified form of Maxwell's equation obtained by lumped matter discipline in which we assumed dphi/dt = 0 I.e zero change in flux.
Electrical engineers compensate dphi/dt change by taking into account inductance/emf on equivalent schematic. dPhi/dt exists as voltage induced in the coil/wire. So electricans actually use... Maxwell equation with dphi/dt "hidden" as emf and everything works perfectly. So... they both wrong?
A better demonstration would be to magnetically shield the sense wires so that the measurements still read the same on either side of the circuit. That takes the variable out of the equation.
Unfortunately it only takes some of the variables out. EG What sort of scope was it measured on? EG some digital scopes have a problem with measuring some types of fast transients of different polarities due to them having Jfet inputs (to have very low pseudo capacitance). I found this out the hard way.
@@gordonlawrence4749 Perhaps, but didn't he state that the load of the scope shouldn't have a significant impact? The reason the numbers are so different (I believe) is because of the second loop that was unaccounted for from the sense wires.
@@macadameane gordon doesn't know what he's talking about. It's evident when he starts talking about different types of oscilloscope. You're right. it's all about the reversal of the sense wires. Just a rudimentary example. most of the flyback power transformers have just 5 windings for the secondary. EG the one that charges your phone. 5!! yet it can generate five volts. meaning 1 volt per winding. If you reverse that wire like the sense wire was reversed, you get -5 volts. # you can not violate lenz law, faraday's law or kirchoff's laws. The Dr forgot that if you reverse the direction of a conductor in a field, then the current reverses. We can therefore deduce that he didn't know what he was doing.
A schooling in Metrology101. Step1: Check stray inductance, capacitance & noise. Step2:
Marry me and give me scope.
I'm with you; your reasoning is solid. So you've basically done the same experiment and shown Lewin's conclusion to fail on reproducibility after accounting for a straightforward explanation. This is why replicating a result before accepting it is so important: especially from an experiment claiming well-established laws to have an exception that is not predicted --- Kirchhoff's law withstands scrutiny.
Dracolith1 Lewin was too quick to think one of the greatest laws do not hold true
Intuitivly KVL and KCL form part of the conservation laws that underpin physics. That is current in equals current out and voltage in is dropped over the circuit. So if you are to prove these wrong even for one special case care must be taken. Induced EMF is difficult to measure experimentally because as others have said it is hard to remove from the measurement process. Always assume that long standing theories rule until conclusively proven wrong. Though Maxwell was a genius and his contributions to electronics cannot be understated.
No. KVL does not hold if there is a changing magnetic flux through the loop. That's a simple fact.
@@alexandermilleriii499 great law? How great? Can it fit into a house? It has a graet reputation because of its simplicity. It is useful because of its simplicity. But it's too simple to be true generally, as demonstrated. Maybe it worth trying to expand its validity, but to make it valid generally its usage should have been made extremely complex, losing its main benefit.
@Kalum It is not a FACT that it does not hold. Electroboom shows how it does hold in this example -- with this fairly orderly flux by solenoid;
KVL can still be accurately applied to the situation. That does not necessarily mean there may not be other more extreme configurations which may exist that it is possible where
it could be argued KVL might or might not be able to be shown to hold or be consistent with measurements, such as what does it look like with a circuit when an irregular elongated magnetic field is applied to a segment that is growing and collapsing, not regularly behaved.
Hello sir, I’m not sure if I’ve understood your video but in my opinion what professor lewin is talking about is maxwell’s equations. One of maxwell’s equation says that in presence of changing magnetic fields, electric fields are no more conservative therefore the work you need to do to get from one point to another does depend on the path you take and potential difference is just the work you have to do divided by the charge you’re holding
Well, I am surprised that Dr Lewin made this nonsense statement.
Ofcourse Kurshoff laws hold. At least in this case, the problem is simply linked to the probing.
The problem was clear from the beginning. And coming from a good experimental fellow like him, I am really disapointed.
I spent my entire PHD developing a magnetic localisation system and if i have learned one thing during those years of experimental setups is to check and double check your wiring. Every bit of wire can act as an inductor and depending on which direction you wind it compared to the source of the varying magnetic field, it acts differently.
I remmember running to a similar problem when building my first coils. A little untwisted wire absorbs a suplement of signal that completely falsifies the magnetic localisation by few centimeters (for a body parts localisation system, this is a big deal). Back then, I didn't even think of blaming Kirchhoff. I just started by checking my wiring and understood the problem in no time.
Physics don't lie. Some laws are so established today that one must start by checking the experiment setup before even if it is Dr Lewin. But who doesn't make mistakes?? It happens to the best of us.
I am a little disapointed though.
Where are the sparks?!!!!!!!! Not even a little shock?!!! Is this electroboom or the school of electronics?
saifeddine ALOUI he’s not wrong. Mehdi puts it in such a way that it seems wrong, but KVL does actually fail when fields and physical structures are involved.
Imagine a thick metal hollow tube carrying AC current. Due to skin effect the current in the outside surface is larger than the current on the inside surface. Due to resistance, the voltage drop along the outer wall is larger than that along the inner wall.
Take a loop going into the tube at the top, all the way to the other side, and close it around the outside.
Now the sum of voltages is not 0.
Wish i could draw it.
kirchhoff's law holds only in cases the circuit size is much smaller than the wave length that passes through the circuit from the source. This is called a Quasistatic approximation, wiki link below.
The simplest example is an antenna:
An antenna broadcasts an electromagnetic field to the environment by a changing current that runs inside it. If Kirchhoff's law was true, there would be no current running through the antenna (it is cut off by KCL KVL laws).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasistatic_approximation
@@noamgraham9006 I understand the antenna example and the quasistatic approximation.
But the experiment presented by Mehdi in this case is consistant with his explanation. The problem is not that the voltage difference is not the same if you measure it from the left or from the right. The problem here is that he used an extention of the wire that is embedded into the varying magnetic field. It is basically a setting problem and not a fundamental physical error. At least in this specific experiment. I
'm not arguing with the fact that when you pass a signal with a small enough wavelength, the Kirshhoff low doesn't hold. I'm just talking about this specific experiment with the specific outcome.
Here is a summary I found on the net on the limitations of the KVL and KCL laws:
KCL is applicable on the assumption that current flows only in conductors and wires. While in High Frequency circuits where, parasitic capacitance can no longer be ignored. In such cases, Current can flow in an open circuit because in these cases, conductors or wires are acting as transmission lines.
KVL is applicable on the assumption that there is no fluctuating magnetic field linking the closed loop. While, in presence of changing magnetic field in a High Frequency but short wave length AC circuits, the electric field is not a conservative vector field. So, the electric field cannot be the gradient of any potential and the line integral of the electric field around the loop is not zero, directly contradicting KVL. That’s why KVL is not applicable in such a condition.
As you can see, both has limitations when it comes with high frequency (short wavelengths) which hopefully allow for open circuits like antenna to work.
The way you explain it, it seems so obvious, but I have a Master's in Civil Engineering, so what do I know? I studied water.
Solomon Parker There must be something wrong. I was under the impression that civil engineers studied only concrete and steel
Water flow is immensely more complex than this to me. Even as only a second year Electrical Engineering student, I look at Dr. Lewin's lecture and immediately sense something wrong, despite how experienced and knowledgeable he is.
However, if literally anyone told me anything about pipes and flowrate and stuff I'd probably believe it because fluid mechanics is a complete enigma to me despite having had to take it twice
@@smlgd There are four main disciplines in CE. Structural (what you speak of) Transportation (roads, pavements), geotechnical (soils, landfills, underground structures) and Environmental (water, wastewater, air treatment). Had to study them all, focused on the latter.
@@BonJoviBeatlesLedZep Water and electricity are very much analogous on the basic levels, until you get to things like EM fields and capacitance and the higher stuff.
Water is important too. Possibly more important.
I sent this to some of my science teachers, im curious of what they are gonna say about it.
You have all my support👊
This is a very good point, though several times before when I watched the video but didn't realize how important it is. The matter of this question is how to model the real physics system: we can model the magnetic field by inductances and transformers as electrical engineering, while physicists may look at PDEs and have less emphasis on lumped circuits. As for the probing, that's another vital lesson I have learnt, because I was lucky enough that I didn't burn the scope with ground circulation with two passive probe at a region of high di/dt, quite similar as here.
Where we you when i was studying? That's some beautiful explanation.
can you show how to change a lightbulb? I already tried 2 times and almost killed myself with resistance and capacity
Have you tried keeping an anglerfish, you know the fish which grows a bulb?
I think it was the voltage that almost killed you ;)
He already did this ruclips.net/video/-oRCvLtnYMY/видео.html
have you tried turning it off and on again?
@@tobywenman4769 well that was not helpful at all. now I'm dead from all the electrons and what not. why you let me do this by myself?
WoW ! - I feel like I'm watching two gods fighting each other on mount Olympus and I have a BSEE degree.....
Studying electrical engineering and watching your videos is the best combination
I know nothing about this yet i enjoyed it thoroughly :)
Yeah me tooo I don't understand either since I got my masters in maths but still is enjoying it
I completely agree, im a janitor and i got shocked once so i know my stuff.
hehehe. Use kirchoff's law to determine the total number of people leaving in your apartment.
Are you a Janitor who works at MIT and anonymously solves problems given to students?
Yes that would be me friend, i then sell the answers to students.
Hi, I think that what you are missing is that is not always possible to consider an inductance to modem the changing magnetic field. For example you could consider a magnet moving near your circuit.
From a mathematical point of view maxwell’s law says that the integral of E in a closed loop (which in electrostatic is the ddp) is zero if and only if the flux of the magnetic field is constant through the surface enclosed by the loop.
Anyway very interesting video thanks!
Amazing video, and bad youtube algorithm, even tho i been watching your videos for ages (and subscribed) this good quality video was never in my feed... found it by mistake, and i was like “this must be new upload- just to see it’s 2 years old”
i like this way of experimentally trying to prove someone wrong. It's a nice and a humble way to disagree with someone of such high caliber.
KVL holds very true for conservative electric field. However, when you apply a time varying magnetic field through a loop
, along with induced emf, a very special type of induced electric field is also generated which can form closed loops (thereby its non conservative) hence KVL cannot hold for this case and hence the whole notion of lumped circuit model fails . If the magnetic field is changing very slowly with time you can ignore these effects but if your magnetic field is largely changing with time, you cant ignore the non conservative electric field. The uniqueness in faraday's law is that it combines both results into a single equation. Hence faraday's law holds true for all such situations but not KVL. Speaking in more practical terms, all generators work by changing the orientation of magnetic field (not magnitude).
But shouldn't KVL still work if you lumped the wire's inductance into a "secondary coil" like Medhi has?
Other people have stated however that this IS a conservative field, and has no curl. KVL holds because the problem is with the sensing, not KVL
@@drawapretzel6003 This is not a conservative field. One way to interpret Faraday-Maxwell equation into words is to say that a time-varying magnetic field gives rise to an electric field WITH curl. Since the E-field has curl it is not conservative.
@@twbbrandon KVL cannot hold in the presence of a time-varying magnetic field, or a non-conservative E-field. Faraday-Maxwell equation tells us a time varying B-field gives rise to an E-field with curl.
I connect a voltmeter between two points on a circuit and think "I'm measuring the voltage between those two points". I'm not thinking clearly. The voltmeter is indicating a response to the total electric field which exists along the path occupied by the voltmeter and its test leads - i.e. between the points being probed. There may be both conservative Coulomb electric field components and non-conservative solenoidal field components which comprise the total electric field along that particular measurement path. In the case where there are definitely only Coulomb field components (e.g. in simple DC circuits) we can justifiably claim what the voltmeter indicates may be interpreted as the voltage difference or potential difference (PD) between the two points being probed. If there are induced solenoidal field components present along the measurement path, what we think we measure and what we actually "measure" may differ. This is what the Lewin experiment demonstrates quite clearly. Voltmeter indications in the Lewin experiment are ambiguous. Even if we closely align the measurement path with the actual path via the circuit between the probed points, the paradox remains unresolved - at least in the Lewin experiment case. There are always at least two possible paths between the probed points on a circuit. In more complex circuits the electric field conditions along the range of possible paths between the probed points will vary.
Where solenoidal fields are likely present we might try to circumvent any ambiguity by judiciously choosing a measurement path between the probed points which we assert includes only Coulomb fields. This may not always be practicable. We can measure the PD across the terminals of an inductor but we can only surmise what electric field conditions exist along the inductor winding & which give rise to that PD. It is physically possible to arrange the measurement path to probe what is claimed be the Coulomb field (scalar) PD between the two points on the Lewin experiment. However we are simply choosing another measurement path which is after all, one of a number (an infinity?) of possibilities - the majority of which give different results. Surely it's the electric field conditions along the circuit path itself that are important - irrespective of whether there is ambiguity in the voltmeter observations.
bro curl(E)=-B_t (where B_t is partial derivative of B with respect to t) is a maxwell eq. it is always valid. while applying kvl u assume that E is grad of some scalar function, if a vector field is grad of a scalar func, then it must be curl free. however we know that curl(E)=-B_t, thus kvl is not always valid, which assume curl(E)=0.