SMG Rate of Fire & Controllability
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- Опубликовано: 16 авг 2020
- There are a lot of design goals one must think of when designing an SMG for its intended goals:
ROF
Weight
Magazine Capacity
Each of these must be balanced for what is desired. Are you looking for longer sustained fire for suppression, or trying to increase the likelihood of a hit on a fleeting target? These goals actually conflict with one another.
In this video we directly compare an MP18 to an early MP40 to a Lage Max31aMk2 and discuss this topic.
Massive thanks to Bear Arms in Scottsdale, AZ for their support and bringing out the MP18 and MP40 for this video!
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Finally after all those years I have samething in my house that was in episode of In Range tv.
I have the same brown carpet on which the guns have been displayed to us in this wonderful episode.
Lucky...
lol...
The value of that carpet is about to skyrocket.
I can't even afford the brown carpet. I got to rent an mp40 once and it is really nice to shoot. No way I can afford that kind of ammunition expenditure, but it's smooth...
That carpet really tied the episode together, did it not?
What I understood from this video is among these 3 SMGs, the most controllable one is the MP5.
MP5 is superb, no doubt.
Lage kicks butt on MP5 owners in Phoenix subgun matches.
Buuut... wouldn't the MP40 be like 8 times betterer?
@@MrRobbi373 LOL i see what you did there
@@3eightiesopinion524 had a chance to fire a rental range's MP40 and an uzi. I expected the MP40 to take a little bit of work to keep on target, but it's buttery smooth.
Then after that I got goaded into buying a box of S&W .500 magnum and shooting the shop's 50 cal revolver. I don't understand the use case. I can't imagine it kills bears deader than a 44, and the feeling of getting hit in the hands with a baseball bat every shot was off-putting
Man it's hard to overstate how influental the MP18 really was. It has it's lineage visible in every sub gun designed until the sixties.
Like your mom.
@@patgray5402 Actually my mom is a 7.7cm Feldkanone 96. She didn't get around much after the great war.
@@lostalone9320 What I find impressive about the MP 18 isn't that it was the first practical submachine gun, but how many of it's features carried over to later designs. It being pistol calibre or open bolt aren't the only things that carry over to others. A lot of later submachine guns also take the tube receiver and just general handling characteristics from the 18. It's kind of the standard template for what a pre sixties sub gun looks like.
In essence the MP18 is to submachine guns what the Renault FT is to tanks.
Now with that being said, Had the FT or the 18 never existed we still would have eventually ended up with similar designs simply because they are emminently practical, but as things are they are the reference.
reminds me of the bastard gun from metro
The Lage also has the barrel directly in line with the stock and only just above the pistol grip, which greatly reduces muzzle flip.
Exactly. Less bore offset makes every gun gooder!
too bad shit is all backordered....
I Cant Find Any Info On This Lage Kit. Can Anyone Point Me In A Direction?
@@joshveer1138 just Google Lage Mac 11 kit, you should find a lot of pages on it.
"He turned a Mac-11 piece of sh*t into an usable sub-machinegun..."
Oh my god, my sides!!!
Even for its age 101 years old the MP18 is still a sexy looking gun.
I could live a thousand years and never get tired of watching mag dumps.
You've watched Kalashnikov Group?
@@gleggett3817 Thats not a mag dump... thats a gun dump :D
In case you were not aware: project Lightening with C& Rsenal
MP40 is still stacking bodies in modern conflicts. A testament to its design
I'd take the mp40 but that m11 conversion is super dope
MP40 for the win- IMO- for me; I loved how it handled, tracked, and its rate of fire.
Agreed the mp40 will always be my favorite smg
And it just plain looks good too!
Naturally
Respecting MP 40 ah i see another cultured commander
Also the steel look... i just love it. Not many guns look all metal like that... most are polymer or wood with some metal.
1:40 If I remember correctly the MP38 had a machined receiver. The MP40 being when they switched to stampings.
Yep
Simple slip, I suppose.
MP38: milled steel receiver.
MP40: stamped steel sheet receiver.
That sounds right to me
I see the Lage gun has been set up as a multi-projectile firearm.
One projectile (or set of projectiles) for people downrange of the barrel, and one for people at the shooter’s 3 o’clock position.
I wonder what Karl thought when he reviewed the footage and saw the flurry of casings flung straight at his camera. I doubt he planned that, I'd think the camera could have been damaged.
I loved the shells coming directly at the camera.
Wish we could have seen a PPSh-41 in here, but a good video nonetheless.
Theoretically, I'm more in favor of a slower rate of fire for better suppression and ammo longevity.
I love the look of those old 1st gen subguns from Europe, like the MP18, and stuff like the MP34, full stocks of wood and all machined receivers. Needlessly expensive for what they were, but man if they weren't gorgeous.
interesting how video games have scewed most young peoples perception of firearms. a lot of people still think shotguns have a range of like 5 meters or SMGs are really hard to control when firing. it's nice to have these educational videos.
Or that someone can take a full power rifle round to the upper chest/head and live
@@schottiey Honestly that is possible (not the head) but In closer ranges the high powered round will just pierce right through someone due to their very high velocity (especially if it AP). It will still hurt and they will bleed out soon, but not a One hit kill as you stated.
@@schottiey Someone CAN take a full power rifle round to the upper chest or head and live...
Not, you know, reliably and not without still being severely injured, but it all depends on the circumstances of the wound.
Plus, you know, taking a full power rifle round (or any round, really) anywhere is dangerous.
Getting a sucking chest wound from a full power rifle round is a looooooot more survivable than getting hit in femoral artery (i.e. the leg or the ass) with a .22LR.
I remember someone said shotguns shoot far and then a bunch of gamer laughed at him I was not exposed to real fire arms, so I didn't know who to believe
I'm a gamer and didn't laugh but i had a feeling he was right but was not 100% like Im now
Depends on the shotgun and shell, but the problem is the US has an old fetish with the shotgun that began in WW1 claiming it was A GAME ChAnGeR for warfare, not like that silly and useless MP 18 machine pistol... same chauvinism that made the US claim the StG 44 was crap...
How dumb were they!!!
Bonus fact, some guy named Schmeisser designed BOTH, but hey, Browning RuLeZ, right? XD
That Lage M11 looks like an M1A1 Thompson, with modern design sensibilities. I kinda love it.
That sound on the mps has to be one of the most distinctive amazing sounding guns ever !
I would loved to seen a Swedish k in the test too 🙂
Having carried and fired one ALOT I can say that it fires like the MP40.
Funny thing.. US Army tested the M3 vs Thompson vs MP40 during WW2 and the M3 came out ahead. Really slow 450-500 rpm
The Swedish K came out in '45 and they looked at the MP40, Sten, Suomi and M3, but simplified it by removing every moving part they could. No semiauto even
@@amclips2995 yes i think swedisk k is build on finnish kpist the sten and mp40. I competition shooting with the k thats why i would liked it in there. Its not exactly as the mp40 in mho . But i get where you comming from 🙂
Semiauto is not needed. If you cant shoot single shoot with it you shuld not use it. But swedish police force had one with select fire semi / auto. And you can buy parts for semi from stockholms vapenfabrik for k pist if its a must be 😂
Anders Mullo Swedish K is a PPS-43 copy chambered in 9mm. Its as simple as that.
@@argy007
No not that simple.
www.gotavapen.se/gota/artiklar/kpist/swede_45.htm
@@argy007 The PPs 43 along with the Sten, Mp 40 etc were studies for their metal stamping production techniques. The mechanics of the m 45 have way more in common with the Sten than the pps 43.
The barely hidden smile after dumping the MP40 spoke volumes
The first full auto gun I shot was an MP18/i years and years ago. I remember that I hardly landed 10 out of the 20 shots on target. I didn’t realize how controllable it was (i.e. my shooting sucked, not the gun) until I fired an M1A1 Thompson. The MP18 really just vibrated fore and aft; the Thompson pushed me back and rose up at the same time.
I shot an MP40 many years ago and it was my favorite.
Many years ago I knew a guy who tried his hand at a rental Thompson while on vacation. For our generation he was a diminutive fellow, about 5’8” and a wiry 140lbs. or so, but that would have hardly been unusual for the generation that fought in WWII. He was also quite used to shooting and hunting. He said the Thompson was an absolute beast to keep from climbing not just off target, but beyond an angle that was safe for the indoor range.
when Karl talks about the Thompson being dificult to control, you can not forget that the Tompson was impaired by a really bad choice in ammo. The 45 ACP bears 4.5Kg*m/s of momentum and the 9mm 3kg*m/s. You need a bolt of 1.5*mas in order to operate a 45ACP vs a 9mm
I literally woke up this morning wondering when I had last seen that Lage M11, and lo and behold you've brought it to us.
Ask and ye shall receive, for he (Karl) is good.
These videos are some of your best content. Great information
Love it! You guys are great. No fluff, just facts. Keep it up!
Whenever I get ammo or buy a new gun at Bear Arms I always marvel at Kurt's vintage weapons collection he's got there. Nice guy too!
Very well edited. Good story.
Love my M11 with Lage goodies
That Lage looks super cool. Great video.
Dear InRangeTV, you are excellent ambassadors to show the Second Amendment is not a niche cornered by one political, patron ideology. Thank you!!
Thank you for including the MP 18. It is often forgotten when people compare weapons.
Extremely cool! Thanks, Karl.
Great video on a great topic.
I'm glad i have inrange.tv to see comparative gun performance instead of scratching my head bald when watching History channel or the likes whilst having some intimate knowledge about some of the guns they made bs miths about.
awesome video guys, thanks!!!
Awesome Video!!!!!
Thank you- that was cool. More please!
MP18 design lasted far longer than WW1. In 1964 on an RN Junior Officer Gunnery Course remember using a Lanchester SMG which was a copy of the MP18. Good designs go on forever.
love the mp40
that m11 chassis is cool
Nice MP 40 with the early bolt handle without the safety lock.
I'm a simple guy, I see full auto smg mag dumps and i press like.
Just wanna point out that Ian said the the 1921 Thompson was actually really controllable, in the comparison of the 3 Thompson gun, even though it shot the fastest
I was gonna say when Ian was doing the Thompson comparison that gun looked very controllable
Was just thinking that too. From my understanding, it's kind of a bear to lug around, but the weight helps with the recoil.
I like the philosophy of the slower rate of fire, like the G36's rate of fire as opposed to something like the M27,M4A1, or any full auto AKM.
Ooo that mp 18 is so cool! I so want that!
Very Informative
Keep up the good work! :) What about a comparison and maybe a contest with some of the ultra-compact submachine guns, like MAC 10, Mini/Micro Uzi and HK MP-5K ?
Awesome video... that Liege gun is a much need
InRange IS a live 🤜🏽
A low rof let’s you adjust between shots, a high rate of fire creates a more consistent force that is easy to counter with a constant pull, in between is kinda sketchy
Its all about how the harmonics of the rate interplay with the weight distribution. Different guns will have different sweet spots.
I would love to have seen all three steal targets painted white with the hits from each gun. Great video!
You should show an over the shoulder view of the target as well, it would help us see the controllability better. Most videos with machine guns never show the target or what they are shooting at, its something I've always wondered about.
Camera overheated.
@@InrangeTv I understand, its hot as hell in AZ im sure. Im dying at work over here in south TX
Where is the Suomi?!? I would have put my BRP STG in the running... It has a ridiculous rate of fire in 9mm and I use the slowfire kit for .45ACP. The STG/U9 is essentially a Suomi though. Edit: also needs more PPSh-41! ;)
Awesome video BTW!
Its the states, there are not exactly PPSH's and Suomi's lying around, its a miracle they can even make a video with an MP18 and an MP40
@@kobeh6185 I just missed out on a fully transferable PPSh-41 last auction and there are plenty of non-fully transferable PPSh-41's and Suomi's in the US.
*Slow rate of fire* and PPSh is so f*cking fast
Project Lightning II: Submachineguns and Machine Carbines of WWII, Featuring C&Rsenal, Forgotten Weapons, and InRangeTV!!
Didn't know about the shockwave mags. I'll have to look into those. My biggest worry about my Max-31 was the drums wearing out.
I'd love to see you guys do a mud test for the Sten vs a Sterling!
StG 44 for me. I know it's not an SMG but in WW2 that was one of the best handheld firearms you could have. A few others were the MP 40, the PPS 43, M1 Garand, the STEN, the M3 Grease Gun, technically the SKS and that's about it I think. Add more if you think I missed some.
MP40 for the win!
I’ve never shot any of those, but I have shot a full-auto Thompson. It was not at all uncontrollable. I was easily able to manage the Thompson on target with mag dumps or bursts. In fact it was downright giggle inducing how easy it was to dump whole boxes of .45acp into whatever happened to be the target of choice. If the mp40 is much better, it must be pretty good.
A shot of your groups would have been nice. Great video anyway 👍
And then I see a video of Jerry Miculek mag dumping with a Thompson and not even flinching one bit...
Please expand on this with other SMG's. Ian does a good job but tends to do them individually. I like this back to back comparison style. Beautiful guns in this video.
Cool video
Mhhh interesting, seems like you got yourself an MP18 that has the post 1920 modification, like the Stick Magazine instead of a WW1 Snail-Mag. Very nice, thx for the presentation.
"The American Thompson is not a controllable gun." I think Ian would disagree with that. It depends on which version of the Thompson and as it turned out the Thompson with the highest rate of fire is more controllable than the ones with slower rates of fire.
Great video, would be nice to see the same with higher caliber or higher fire rate.
Pretty interesting Karl! I would love to see you in a match with a versus battle between the Lage and an AR with binary trigger
There is a model of the Thompson that is around 600 rpm that is controllable
would be interesting to see a comparison with SMG's that have a reputation of high rates of fire, I'm thinking Vektor and MP7
I think the mp-18 is one of the most beautiful guns ever
More, give me more! I need another hit!
Vector. Also very nice
The MP40 wins here. I remember it has a sort of buffering mechanism built into it, but i don't remember how. If it rises so little in a mag dump, it must be superb in controlled bursts. I do love the MP5, and the Beretta M12 was good too. It had a slow rate od fire (i woukd guess 450-400 rpm, not unlike a grease gun) and was open bolt. That seems to be the sweet spot. The MP5 is faster of course. Don't remember the spec exactly, but i think it is in the 750 rpm range. Anyway, great info. Hopefully we will see more? Maybe Swedish K, MP5, and 1 or 2 others?
Would be interesting to get the overall mass, bolt mass, ROF, and barrel height above inline stock tabulated for these
WW II slower rate of fire...
PPD/PPSh:
hold my drum
1:23 the rate of fire is so satisfying
nice
Karl that looked like a good day on the range
Beretta M38 was the SMG of WWII.
Would like to see your thoughts on you current M11/A1 set up vs a M11/A1 with the CFW A bolt.
I need to do that.
I, on the other hand, would like to HEAR your thoughts on that matter. As being able to SEE thoughts is impossible for me.
@@Darkxculo Sounds like an issue for you. Hope you get that worked out.
@@visionaryfirearmsllc9999 👌🏻😂
Would love to see more M11-A1s ❤
I love MAC conversions.
As for the stock, what is the difference in feel when it comes to using a metal bar folding stock vs a proper fixed in place wooden stuck?
I would love to see a 2 room clearing test, 5 targets in the left and 5 in right room.
Maybe add 3 more targets at a distance out of the window view.
Since you have considerable experience, it would be interesting to have an opinion on which SMG's have been most controllable and which have been least controllable as well as what seemed to be the reasons for the differences. Also what characteristics would be in a "best" SMG. Thanks
Awesome video Karl, it's interesting to see the ROF getting faster as the years went by. Would you say that there is a tendency of rates of fire climbing through the years thanks to advancements in technology allowing for more controllable platforms? Or is it all about finding that "sweet spot" of either slow enough to control shot-by-shot or so fast that the muzzle device and the swiftness of the bolt keep the gun level? I know what was shown in today's video is just a coincidence as the Italian WW1 SMG you mentioned had a high ROF, same with the M31 and the PPSh some years later.
I was also wondering about censoring the s-bomb. I mean you do you, it's not bothering me at all, just made me think. From my point of view your videos are made primarily for mature audiences which shouldn't have much issues with hearing the odd swearword. I may be just a bit daft not realizing this was done for comedic effect in which case I'm a complete moron and I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time.
Survivor bias or selective data - these are three guns where the ROF increases, as the tech changes while still being controllable. If you swapped the MP40 with something that climbed to point at the sky during a full magazine, you could have a different narrative.
Should you maybe show the targets after to compare accuracy? Maybe show the accuracy difference in the rate of Fire between the different models of the Thompson?
I don't have any trouble controlling my M1928 Thompson. Easy to put all the rounds on the target.
If someone came up with a robust, simple and adjustable rate reducer I think a lot of SMGs would benefit. Seems like a lower rate of fire would be useful for suppression and high rates of fire useful for room clearing.
Having a proper locking (or gas system) system is probably a lot more important than rate of fire as far as usability goes.
Compare a 223 tavor to a properly gassed svt 40, the svt has less kick despite being twice as powerful and about the same weight.
You should do a video talking about the B&T APC9-K the army is going to use as a replacement for the MP5s.
It would be intresting to see what they do on papper.
The MP 38 has a beautiful ejection pattern..
Thanks for the video Karl. Do you think a less experienced shooter would find them all equally easy (or difficult) to get hits with?
Are there any constant recoil SMGs? I assume someone has done it, though haven't seen it myself. I remember watching videos of Ian playing with a constant recoil LMG (Knights Armoury, I think), and another of him using the PPSH and saying that the rate of fire was high enough that the impulse almost blends into one continuous pressure
@FacePwn64 H&K MP5 is basically as close as it gets. An SMG so good, the manufacturer's attempts to kill it failed.
The StG also had (in my opinion) a rather major flaw that it was open bolt. USA played a great role why StG style of guns were "forgotten" - great insistence on .308 as the NATO standard even though most countries were looking for lower power service rifles.
Assumingly one of the only ones is actually in this video.
The MP40 recoil spring system is designed to work similarly to a hydraulic buffer, so it never lets the bolt contact the reciver.
I don't know of any other SMG that has such a feature but in my experience it makes the MP40 feel a lot smoother than other SMGs. It just sort of chugs along without any sharp punchy recoil impulse.
@@LeadHeadBOD The MP40 qualifies as constant recoil, while the MP5 is roller locked and closed bolt, but the bolt does hit the reciver.
Ah, the MP 18 -I, I, 1 - my favourite SMG. Much better than the MP 18 -I, H, 0.
karl, love your show. the small weight on the barrel of the mp40, is it to counteract muzzle rise? ive always wanted to know.
Could we look forward to more SMG match content?
My question is what’s the recoiling mass difference and are they different recoil systems? That would also effect recoil along with how in line the stock is
you should use a second camera showing a closeup of a bleeding target at so and so yard so we could get some pictures of how the result down range is. a moving target would be cool too!
I tried and the camera overheated.
@@InrangeTv i guess we can't blame it, maybe next time then. you could turn it into click gold if you'd compared lets say 4 generations of german subguns coz everybody loves them.
We get defeated despite using them,
we might use them for the wrong cause,
but everyone even if not liking us agrees,
"Das sieht gut aus!"
xD
Personal preference: I like a slower rate of fire.
I’m trying to modernize a M-2 carbine to make it more controllable.
I get that that would be cool, but why
@@felonytaxevasion2773 Is waiting for my m-2 transferable trigger pack to get approved. I would like to build a host firearm for it from the ground up, to be as controllable, and as modern as possible.