from my POV, Asics is basically a bunch of nerds (in a good way) that tries to solve and sell a solution to all kinds of problems and demand, even the very niche one, you want long run? SB2, you want race shoe with short stride and long stride? Metaspeed Sky/Edge Paris, you want max cushion? Gel Nimbus 26, you want max cushion with stability? Gel Kayano 31, you want cushion shoes that is not max cushion? Gel Cumulus 26, you want something like Gel Kayano 31 but have less stack height? GT2000 13, you want a JDM super trainer? S4, you want a traditional flat tempo trainer? HS4 MS4 is like oh you want a tempo super trainer that is not as big as SB2 and have a plate resembling a Metaspeed series that is sold globally? try the MS4
I think you are partially right. Maybe not nerds...but traditionalist. I feel there is the team of engineers and product designs in Kobe, Japan and then another in North American that see things VERY differently...which is why you get so many shoes going in so many directions. Asics has been slow to adopt change in the past and it seems there are still people internally who resist it, while others are go go go 100% into the new.
Hi Sagasu! I liked your analysis, and the theory makes sense, but I have a different opinion I'd like to share with you and your watchers after I tried the Magic Speed 4. I loved the Novablast 4 so much for many things (from easy runs to repeats) that I thought I needed a pair of lighter/faster shoes to pair for races (I do 5k/10k and triathlons). Based on my inputs, Asics’ shoe finder recommended the Noosa 16 (if I input 10k races), the Magic Speed 4 (if I input up to half marathon), and the Metaspeed Sky Paris (for marathon). So I decided to trust them and give the Magic Speed 4 a try. Oh boy, I liked these shoes so much! They are an amazing cruiser if you start increasing your pace at around 3:50-4:10 min/km! They keep rolling even with tired legs. You feel the turbo pocket on the forefoot. You feel the snap, and the light rocker keeps your rolling momentum. They are stable enough for races (closed a 15k race with rough descents and hills in 1h:50 seconds) and didn't feel any tendon or ankle issues (I have slight overpronation on the right foot only, although I still push with mi little finger/external side instead of the big toe). So to make it short: for Novablast 4 owners/fans, I totally recommend the Magic Speed as a faster shoe for EVERYTHING from fast workouts to races without needing to go spend 250 for the Meta. Also, these are great shoes to introduce you to the lighter and more aggressive Metaspeed series. I found them EVEN BETTER than the Vaporfly 3 for my style of running, more comfortable, and fast. I can tell that now I trust ASICS (and their shoe finder) even more. For reference - these are the shoes I've run in and own: Nike: Vaporfly 3, Vomero 17, Invincible 2; Saucony: Triumph 21, Tempus; Asics: Kayano 30, Novablast 4, Magic Speed 4; Adidas Adios 8; HOKA Mach 5; Puma Deviate Nitro 2. My current threshold pace is around 4:00 min/km - 6:30 min/mi. If you'd like to do a fun experiment I'd recommend you to challenge your theory and give these shoes a try! :D
Reading your story is interesting. I'm really glad they worked so well for you. It's important to find what you like and finding that shoe that really helps is great. I've got plenty of other shoes that fit for this type of workout or racing, so I have no need for this shoe (or this class of shoe) and I will always prefer to run in a proper super shoe for racing. My current favorite threshold pace shoe, for workouts, is the Nike Pegasus Plus. The feel of the ZoomX, with no plate, is outstanding. Moving up to a VF3 or AF3 from there just works for me.
@@SagasuRunning Yeah the feel of ZoomX is hands down - unbeatable (I don't mind even when it's blended with something else like in the Vomero). But so far it has been offered in a limited range of models (ex. the bulky Invincible or in the plated "-Fly"). Curious how it feels in the new Turbo ehm Plus ...
I full on agree with you. I tested the magic speed 4s today , and the faster I ran the better they became. Personally I only recommend them if you are going for very speedy runs. Or else look for something more comfortable at lower paces.
Ouch, not the discussion I wanted to hear, but expected. After four ship delays, I finally received my MS4. My original intent for this shoe was as an uptempo training partner for the SkyP. Because of the price and durability, I didn't want to put miles on either the SkyP or the SB1. I use the SB1 strictly for long runs with workouts (fast finish, surges, etc.). For ez pace long runs I use the NB4. After the delays, it became a matter of principle. I've used it twice so far and found it stiff, but with repeated use it should soften. I have 90 days. If it doesn't work out then I can always exchange it for something else. Thanks, Chris.
The Metaspeeds really are tanks, if your legs don’t get beat up by the foam/plate combo (mine do). The Metaspeed Paris is better for recovery… but still. The Superblast though…. Can go on and on and on… it’s really the super tank. Hopefully the MS4 works for you…
@@SagasuRunning MP4 I don't disagree but at least they are trying something, it's also sidestep and not needed.... it's still a great shoe but it could have been better. Asics foam i found to be shock absorbent, but the Saucony foam belts my legs up, for some reason...maybe it's the type of workouts?
When I first saw this shoe marketed I thought the exact same thing as you're expressing in this video. However, the majority of reviews that I watched were positive and stipulated that the MS4 looked like a "super trainer" in specs, but rode like a true speed shoe. Any negativity I picked up was that the shoe wasn't as versatile as they expected, and was not geared for slow or long running. Since I was in the market for a new speed trainer I picked up a pair and have not been disappointed! The first thing I'll say is that the true comparison for this shoe is the Takumi Sen 10, not the other "super trainers" on the market. The plate in this shoe is firm, the foam is smoothly compliant and responsive (but is not bouncy), and the puck of FFTurbo in the forefoot provides one of the better toe offs in any shoe that I've run in (very similar to the feel of the Metaspeed Edge Paris). I agree with you that this is a mistake by Asics marketing, however, not in the same way you're expressing. I have 25 miles on the MS4 and have come to understand that it is a true speed trainer and 5K racer (just like the Sen). The stack height, weight, and less (racy) upper have led people to assume that this is Asics' version of the Endorphin Speed. It's not! This shoe is firm, fast, and surprisingly comfortable at high speeds. I'm choosing to run my next 5K in the MS4 over the MSE Paris because it is actually a better short distance speed shoe, in my opinion. Marketing should have labeled this a speed shoe, but seemed to lean towards allowing people to think it is a super trainer. Because of this, they've caused confusion, which I think will ultimately hurt sales because there are other more versatile options on the market. So, in summary to this very long post, I'll say that the only real comparible shoe to the MS4 in feel is the Takumi Sen 10. In my experience, the MS4 is every bit as fast as the TS10, but more protective and comfortable. I couldn't recommend the MS4 more highly for those looking for a true speed training and 5K racing option. Just don't go into the show thinking you can take it on long or slow runs, it's made to do fast.
Excellent info. The MS series has always been a “speed” shoe, the MS3 was near perfection. I do think Kofuzi said something interesting about this one…. His point about if the MS3 was the speed shoe for the Metaspeed Edge, the MS4 is now for the Sky. That makes sense to me. My bigger point though is that more interesting shoes are coming out and the template is evolving. Choices for everything and that is great. 👍🏻
@@torenforsberg1 Not sure about your region, but I have the Asics current season tech book they are not market as a versatile training shoes but a fast tempo/race day shoes which overlap with Hyperspeed and Metaspeed.
I just keep buying daily trainers and run hard when I want to go fast and softly if I go long 😅. But, I'm addicted to watching shoe tube and sagasu is right up there for my favourite entertainment ❤
Been using the MS4 for the past two weeks, intervals, tempo runs and a few 10 mile runs! Brilliant shoe and love it especially after the break in period and it softens up, works really well in my rotation which also includes SB2 and Vapour Fly 3, may I suggest to the reviewer to try a pair, allow them to “break in” around 25 miles, then come back with a review after actually wearing a pair.
I've got too many other shoes to run in at the moment. I value my time running too much to run in a shoe I won't like "just to see". That is why this video is not a review, as I'm not running in them, rather a design critique about the market. I'm glad they work for you though. Runners having choice is a good thing.
The SB2 + MSEP/S is hard to beat and all bases are covered. Adding in the HS4 gives you a proper workout shoe and the training stimulus. The MS4 doesn’t need to exist.
I own both the SB2 and MS4 both excellent shoes but like you say suggest shoes for different training sessions, definitely nothing mushy about the SB2 though.
Superblast 2 for comfort long run or marathon. Meta speed for fast interval training or a race shoes. But This is where the magic speed 4 comes in. Some runners just want to have shoes that can do both. I think the MS4 can do long run and speed. I think this is what Asics is trying to do for a budget all around shoes. While some people won’t be able to afford the superblast neither the meta speed. but Asics added an option and created an affordable shoes that can do both. The type of shoes that you can grab anytime. But not the shoes for a race day.
I think they actually do a fill a very necessary and usable segment. The biggest reason for this being the durability to cost benefit for the non-comp runner. The delta of a $180 “super performance trainer” to a $250+ “super shoe” is HUGE. Of course the super shoe is better in every way but it’s also 1/3 higher cost. Super shoes barring some exceptions like the Cielo X1 (which I feel a major class leading innovator in this way) have much thinner and sparser outsoles. The grip often times is also questionable for training use. This is where the “performance plated trainer” comes in. With a super foam/eva blend, a plastic-type plate + more substantial outsole durability, they serve as an alternative to shelling out a full super shoe for racing, while still being capable to train often at race pace leading up to an event to grow comfortable. Can a 32-35mm unplated option with a super foam be just as fast or even faster for quicker sessions as the “performance plated trainer”? Absolutely. But it won’t be a better choice for 26.2 or even 13.1 for the average runner who’s looking for the extra aid of a rigid plate with a modern stack of cushion they’re used to, to get them there. I don’t have a need for this segment because like yourself, I train with specific use case shoes so this class doesn’t do anything for me. But for the everyday runner who’s running in a Clifton or Cloudmonster for everything, that wants a boost for race day under $200 that they can also train in, I think it’s perfect. I don’t think that person necessarily should invest in another flexible lower drop shoe to train dorsiflexion adaptability at $140+ and then also grab a super shoe at $250+ to maximize their running. It’s too costly and unnecessary imo. This is commenting where things sit today, because another class of shoe I see potentially emerging is the “durable super shoe”. As the Cielo X1 mentioned above. That shoe is ridiculously durable, and the outsole is both thick and grippy. It’s the super shoe that is unquestionably super, but durable enough for frequent training that comes at a higher weight for the longer lasting materials used. It’s priced high, but you’ll get your mileage out of them without fear to justify it.
@@Nextman916 Couldn't agree with you more in regards to the Cielo X1. I picked up a pair as soon as they were launched because it seemed like a true innovation in the super shoe market that has become fairly iterative in upgrades over the last couple cycles. I've now got 150 miles in my pair and not only are they not breaking down, but they feel better than ever. The ride is truly unique (in a good way) and protective without feeling clunky. I had high expectations for the shoe when I bought it, but it's truly exceeded those expectations, and then some. A true super shoe that you can actually train and race in. Good for long slow miles and fast sessions all the way up to 10K race pace. I really don't think another shoe like it exists on the market.
I agree with your points. It is mainly why I said use cases do exist for super trainers, but i do find they as edge cases still. Of all the runners in Cliftons, who want a "faster" shoe and don't go for a proper super shoe, yet buy one of the super trainers....that number is small, it's already small to start. There are some brilliantly durable super shoes out there. The Adios Pro 3 and Endorphin Pro 4 come to mind...and I agree on the Ceilo X1. Much MUCH better value for money there.
@@SagasuRunningIt’s maybe not the common choice for the Clifton runner because super shoes are sexy and many people hold that allure stepping up for race day. Although that being said the ES4 and Mach X are pretty popular in the mid pack of things. If I worked at a running store I’d point most rec runners looking to race casually towards these performance plated trainers to start FWIW. If they already have a daily trainer, I don’t feel a super shoe is necessary. Considering they’d most likely heel strike, instead of breaking down options to these 3 specific super shoes that have decent durability and rubber coverage (if we even stocked the 3), which let’s be honest most staff just won’t explain, and ultimately most people would just pick on brand and feel regardless. I’d say the performance plated trainer by all brands are the simplest/safest bet. Just my 2 cents! Anyhow love the content, I feel like all running staff should be trained on your segment breakdowns. It’s often the biggest bottleneck from brand to consumer.
@Nextman916 If worked in a running store I would absolutely direct people to the ES4 as a great option from a basic training into a performance trainer…. Without going all the way to a super shoe. Excellent shoe. Beyond that the Adios Pro 3 is a tank, as is the Boston 12. The Ceilo X1 is a tank as well as the Endorphin Pro 4. Many great and durable super shoe options out there.
You missed the point of MS4, you mentioned there are a lot of faster and fun shoe out there, but you did not compare their RRP. First most people is unable to get S4 so there is no point to put them in the discussion (i bought mine from Japan) otherwise you should also put Joma R5000 in the discussion too! A lot of runners wanted carbon plated shoes but can't justify to spend hundred dollars to get a pair of top tier race day shoes, maybe they want a pair of faster shoe for training and Parkruns? Asics provided options for these runners to get a decent speed training to race day shoes! What other options are out there? Puma Deviate Nitro maybe and that's all. Superblast is a good shoes but they are 70 AUD more expensive than the Magic Speed. Magic Speed 4 has a wider outsole and firmer midsole, so they are a lot more stable than Metaspeeds which a lot of customers found them too wobbly, as not all runners are buying carbon plated shoes for a sub 330 marathon, when brand make the shoes they will have to consider people running in a slower pace maybe doing 4-5 hours marathon time, this is what Nike forgot to do in the past few years. You are looking how this shoe can fit in the rotation of a runner like you subjectivity that's why you don't know why they exist, you then can start making why Cumulus exisit while they have Nimbus, why GT1000, 2000 exist while they have Kayano, why Noosa Tri exist while they have Novablast, why Novablast exisit while there is Superblast and why Hyperspeed exisit while there are tatheredge in their line up. Sometimes it is good to provide customers options to choose from with a different price tag, and not everyone can effort a 5 shoes rotation and buying expensive top of the line shoes, e.g. Magic Speed and Cumulus can be a good recovery to race day 2 shoes rotation without spending too much money, and that's why these shoes exisit. P.S. Kinvara Pro is one of my favourite marathon pace long run shoes. There is no shoe that works for everyone but with that many choices it is likely there is a shoe suitable for each runner.
I agree with your overall comment…. However there are better options out here, mainly the Boston 12 and Endorphin Speed 4…. Tons of value there. I do agree that there is a product need that Asics is addressing… I don’t think the MS4 really hits the mark. It’s a compromised package over all. But yes, those edge cases I mentioned all fit here.
@@SagasuRunning I don't understand your rationale.... So Adidas has a carbon infused rod training shoes and Saucony made a TPU plated shoes (which is more expensive) ... Then Asics should not make one and ask their customers to buy Adidas and Saucony instead?
The execution and materials in the B12 and ES4 are far better. The engineering and use of materials in both are better. Details matter quite a bit. Also what makes the MS4 so insulting is how good the MS3 was… there have been some miserable updates in 2024 from very good and popular shoes in 2023. Across multiple brands. As a designer that speaks to product teams trying to jump on trends and loosing sight of the actual use case of the shoe. Again, the Kinvara Pro is the ultimate example of a product team getting too lost in data and loosing sight of the purpose, feel and air case for the product. Many other brands feel into that trap in 2024. Thera sloppy product development.
@@SagasuRunning You're a bit off track here, your question was "why does this shoe exist" aka why did Asics make Magic Speed 4. The simple answer is they need plated training shoes in their line up in mid-range price to compete with other brands, it doesn't matter how Boston 12 and Endorphin Speed 4 are made and perform they are competitors! A brand won't just kill a shoe if their competitors make similar shoes in the market, they'll only kill the shoe if no one is buying them. Even some shoes are not selling as good as other models, like Hyperspeed, they still make them because there is a demand in the market for that specific type of shoes. And without Magic Speed Asics will have no plated tempo training shoes in their line-up. You think Boston 12 and Endorphin Speed 4 are better shoes but frankly this may not be the case for everyone. I sell running shoes, I sold a few pairs of Magic Speed 4 and those customers also tried Endorphin Speed 4 and Boston 12, some people don't like the upper of Boston 12, midfoot is too narrow, the ride is not stable enough, the heel does not lockdown well... etc... so they pick Magic Speed 4. For Endorphin Speed 4, it is not carbon plated, they are not aggressive enough for races, toebox too narrow, too expensive (yes sometimes that $10, $20 more is a barrier for customers with a budget), and cushioning a bit too soft for their liking. And some customers just know Asics works for them, they tried other brands and gave them problems so they simply just stick to the same brand coz shoes are not cheap they don't want to risk wasting money trying new shoes, yes sometimes it's just that simple. It's a "better shoe for you" doesn't mean they are "better shoe for him/her", most of the running shoe reviewer on RUclips assuming all runners are like them or similar to them, and forget everyone can run and everyone's requirements are different. It is always good to have more choices for different runners.
@jonleexz I totally agree on giving runners options. We have plenty of those in 2024, from every brand. It’s a good time to be a runner. As for the MS4… it’s a symptom of a problem, at Asics and with the state of the industry. That was my editorial POV here. I’m glad it works for some and it’s an option for some. I’m also glad the better product teams are exploring new areas and creating even more choice.
I liked the Magic Speed 3, but I find the Magic Speed 4 to be alot more versatile. In all honesty, I prefer the Magic Speed 4 for speed work and marathon pace style workouts over the Superblast (havent tried the SB2.) I think while Asics does offer better shoes for certain scenarios (Metaspeeds for everything the MS4 does, and Superblast for long runs), there are some potentially large price differences against those shoes. Here in the US, the Metaspeeds are nearly 50% more than the MS4. In terms of the marketing/design space, I think that given the popularity of the Puma DN2, this is another reason why it was revamped to compete in that space (I like the MS4 more than the DN2 though; havent tried the DN3.) I imagine having shoes that hit various price brackets benefits everyone. I think this is a tricky conversation in that I think it really depends on how folks manage their rotation/budget of shoes (if they have one at all.) With a rotation, I would argue that you dont really need "super" all-rounders (ie pick the shoe appropriate for that type of run.) You see alot of reviews mention that if you can only buy one shoe, buy the SB. However, I would argue that if someone only had $160-250 to budget for running shoes, to simply build a rotation...ala the Adios 8, SL2 and Boston 12 (I've grabbed all three of these for less than single pair of SB.)
Two things... 1). I agree that the MS4 seems to be a shoe that ticks the right boxes on price point and features for a certain market. That is also par tof the issue here as that is not how Asics traditionally works. 2). I would argue that the majority of people ending up in "super trainers" are not rotating them with anything. The vast majority are not people watching videos on RUclips about running shoes. They buy an expensive running shoe and expect it to be "the best" and all they need, because it was expensive. I make a point to make a lot of rotation related content, hoping some of it gets seen by those who need it... but I know that is rarely the case too.
I'm not that fond of most of these super stack super trainers, but I'm coming from the more competitive side of racing/training so my training is pretty polarized. Most of these are just too clunky and tuned down for serious speed work and more uncomfortable than a normal trainer for easy/recovery running. They kinda just do moderate paces well mostly and I don't really spend much time there. The Endorphin Speed is still easily the best super trainer because it is a real tempo style trainer still that is light (and has the foam) enough for real speed work, but still comfortable for easy running because of the somewhat flexible nylon plate. I use it for long runs or light workouts and use a normal cushioned daily trainer like the Vomero 17 for most daily miles. I just use a real super shoe for most real workouts or long run workouts. IMO the SC Elite v4 or Endorphin Pro 4 is a better super trainer than all the actual super trainers and some of those are almost getting up there in price. Those have the performance of super shoes for real workouts but are actually comfortable for easy running too.
@@SagasuRunning I don't think there will be a new version anytime soon, but the 2 is exceptionally good. It has the perfect amount of nitro foam with very little forefoot rocker, and ok upper. At the first 50k I only felt it was kinda dull, and just used it for easy runs (I bought it as a companion shoe for the ts9) but when it passed the 50k mark it really became a beast. I know nitro foam needs time to break in but I didn't expect the shoes to be that good. Now it can really replace the ts9 in my training (of course not the race day) because the ts9's upper sometimes hurt my feet.
This shoe does have to exist. The soft upper liner finally enables me to run without blisters on the back of my feet. And the shoe is suitable for 10k up to the marathon with the extra cushioning. Asics did a good thing.
There are so many better options though, in the class and from the brand. The Endorphin Speed 4 and Superblast 2 are two shoes that immediately come to mind.
@@SagasuRunning well, i ran my second marathon and this time on the Magic speed. What a difference co.pared to my Endorphin Speed 4 i ran my first marathon in. I love the shoe!
Well, i hate low stack of tempo run shoes( takumi10, meta3, rebel4). MS4, due to high stack cushion, carbon plate, and low weight, i can do tempo run with less damage on foot. SB1 and SB2 are too plushy and less energy return than MS4.
I think the stack height is an interesting one for the MS4. Feels like that in itself makes it seem a strange move, but they’ve kept the weight down which is good. Interestingly in AUS, we don’t have the Hyper or S4, so if you were gonna build an ASICS rotation, you’re gonna have to go the MS4 if you don’t wanna do all your speed work in the Metaspeed (be that because of price or just wanting to keep the ‘super’ shoe for race day).
In that case Asics really doesn’t offer anything else…. I’d still do that work in a Metaspeed though (and I have been). I’ll have some videos up on that soon.
@@SagasuRunning yeah so I guess it probably mainly comes down to price and maybe durability? Although from my experience with past Magic Speed’s, the outsole is usually pretty similar to the Meta’s, although the midsole foam should probably be more durable.
I’ve mentioned this to you multiple times. Where we typically differ in our preferences is where I do enjoy more stack underfoot than you. The major reason I think for me is that I’m a bigger runner. I tend to bottom out lower stacked shoes too easily. I’ve also drastically reduced the amount of plated shoe running. They obviously have their place, but I don’t want to become too “reliant” on plated shoes simply because of their stack height. I will run plated shoes once a week, maybe twice. I also use PEBAX plates much more than carbon plates. They’re less stressful on my body. As mentioned, I’m a bigger runner, I’ve had both knees operatored on, and I have a hip that needs some adjustment at the chiro once a month. I’m a former football player and power lifter. I’ve beaten the hell out of myself over the years. That’s where the Superblast comes in for me. I will use it for long runs, but I also use it for some daily runs and the occasional interval workout. I have the Balos and love that shoe. My only issue with it is it’s almost too soft. It allows my mechanics to break down too easily when I get fatigued. I’m slowly working on some lower stacked shoes into the rotation. I have the Rebel V4 that I do like. I just got the Peg Plus, but haven’t had a real workout in them yet. That comes tomorrow. I think another shoe you could mention in that category would be the TOPO Specter 2. Full PEBA midsole without a crazy stack height. I’m rambling this point, but another great video, Chris. Keep it up! Thank you.
I mean… the Superblast is in a league of its own for what you described. It’s a shoe that will be hard for you to overpower…. Even with that impressive background. I can also see where the Balos would be great for you. Definitely not a shoe idea go near, more that extreme rocker for me…. But still. This was my point. Those performance max shoes are allowing brands to explore the edge of what is possible and those shoes are going to appeal to certain runners very well. It’s great to have options. That’s what is so exciting about the evolution happening here.
@@SagasuRunning yeah, ASICS really hit a home run with the Superblast. Every runner regardless of size, experience, or intended use can get something really good out of that shoe. It seems like every few years someone comes out with a gem that everyone tries to duplicate with their own spin. It’s both very exciting and costly. 😂
The GT-2000™ 12 was released on Sept 1, 2023. The GT-2000™ 13 is being released on Sept 1, 2024. The difference in the shoes is slim to none. Coincidence? or Planned (and reflective of how the industry moves)?
Asics is in an odd spot right now. I’m going to do a video about this in Sept of Oct…. But it feels like there is an internal struggle for budgets and development… new shoes get all the budgets, some legacy models get remakes, the core models that built the brand get ignored (which is very in-Asics).
I love the performance max category. I run in the Superblast, the Prime X Strung v1, and the Neo Vista. All are fantastic. I run faster with less effort in the Prime X than I do in the Next %. That category has been a godsend for this 56 yo who’s been running for 45 years!
While that category is not my thing I feel like it's going to be great for those who respond to that style shoe. As in so good it keep they running longer....that is always a great thing!
A more flexible, lower to the ground, platless shoe will be better for speed work (hyper speed) and a super shoe (Metaspeed) will be better for longer intervals. Specific to marathon training the Superblast 2 is a far better option. Asics already has all of those covered. Again, I know why this shoe exists... I'm pointing out that it doesn't "need" to exist.
I like a lot of your shoe design analysis but I have a lot to disagree here. MS4 is a campanion shoe to the Metaspeed. I understand that you suggest runners to use the SB2 instead but for the elite runners, SB2 is definitely not fast enough. They have too much giving in the foam and the bulkiness is not good for top speed. And also for the Hyperspeed that you suggested to use instead of the MS4, it’s a low stack shoe but there are many runners who still prefer high stack ones. I guess this point is the most crucial point on why MS4 exists. Picking the Hyperspeed is just your suggestion and doesn’t have to apply to every runners. On the other hand, the shoes that should not exist are most of Nike’s running. The Pegasus Plus is really confusing right now and if a runner has a Pegasus already, it doesn’t make sense to get a Pegasus Plus which the shoe could feel better but still not fast enough for a race. I’d be interested in how you think all the main Nike’s running shoes exist and make sense. Should be an interesting video.
I’m going to have to disagree here. You’ll rarely see an Asics elite/pro in the MS4, they don’t need it. Fast work will be done in a Metaspeed, but be of story. The Superblast is also specially designed, at the request of Asics pros, for a stable non-plated shoe for long runs and long runs with pace (fartleks). It specifically grew out of plateless Metaspeed protos but Asics pros asked for more stability. The MS4 is for consumers. I’m well aware of why it’s there, filling in a “hole” in the line as a cheaper plated option. The Peg Plus, on the other hand, makes a lot of sense .Nike hasn’t had a decent fast/performance trainer in years. As good as the Pegasus is, it’s not a shoe for workouts, unless in a pinch. The Plus finally gives a durable and table non-plated option for Nike runners. Other than the Streakfly, not something Nike runners have had before. As I’ve talked about in other videos…. The Peg Plus is a sign of things to come. You are going to see most brand releasing a shoe like that in the next 1-2 years…. Adidas is next up with the Adios 9. You’ll see a few others early next year. I’m actually going to get into the primary use case for the Peg Plus in my next video. I thought it was obvious… but form comments and DMs I’m seeing it is t. Stay for Sunday. The Nike shoe that no longer makes sense… at least in a performance lineup, is the ZoomFly 6. It’s as bad as the MS4.
@aimnutsatit8348 For example… Clayton Young’s excellent RUclips series. He is in the MS1 in the gym only, and he said that was for nostalgia mostly…. Otherwise you see him in a NB4 and a MSSP… that’s it. Not even a SB.
Ran the MS4s for 25 miles and these are shoes that NEED the break in period. After that they feel comfortable yet still on the stiff side, very supportive and honestly very fast. It’s definitely not the fastest shoe, but I see why it exists. It yearns to be ran fast in but gives you the comfort. I still don’t think it’s for everyone but I get who they’re trying to reach.
The Tempo is another one of those shoes that I bought multiple pairs of (5). I'm currently running in my 4th pair. Glad I have a fresh pair left since it appears to be discontinued.
I’m with you! My all time favorite. I even buy them gently used. What have you found to be closest? I am currently trying AF1 and 3. Curious about peg plus and this MS4
There were women racing in them in the olympic triathlon so some like it. The magic speed is cheaper then both the superblast and the metaspeed paris so there is actually a huge market for them . Every company is basically doing the same thing so you'll just be able to cut and past this for each company so you won't have to be very innovative either.
Some companies are thinking outside the box more than others, Hoka and Mizuno come to mind right now. Some companies are much more innovative than others (mostly due to R&D budgets, Nike and Adidas come to mind. Some companies are just throwing out ideas and hoping something sticks, Like Puma and New Balance. All are valid strategies but will result in different product ultimately. It's when brand A begins to carbon copy brand B , with a different tech stack, with no tuning for their own tech...that we get awful product. That has happened a few times in the industry over the years.
It is actually quite easy to understand from he marketing point of view. Asics needs to have a max cushioning plated super trainer in the line up to compete with SC trainer, skyward X, Prime X strung and Neo Vista. It is just too bad S4 is not available outside of Japan otherwise it is probably a better choice.
But that shoe is the Superblast 2... Though 2025 Asics is going heavy on the "max" thing... yet again the MS4 has no reason to exist (yes, I know why it exists, but it doesn't need too is my point).
188cm , 94 kg, 5-10km , 3-4 per week. now nike vomero 16. pace 5-6 min per km. what is the right choice for everyday training but ideally for 10km run? 100-180 euros/dollars? should i go to saucony? should i move to asics? should i stay to nike? quite confusing to choose without running.
I'd recommend the Adidas Boston 12 here, especially if you are looking for a plated shoe you can use in parallel with you Vomero 16. The Boston 12 is firm enough that it will hold up to you very well AND you can find really good deal on it generally.
Great content and the approach to explaining by using the graphic to show where the sweetspot of the shoe is, what slow, fast, tempo means, building a shoe rotation, how the future for some companies look like and so much more! Underrated channel! Quick question: MS3 or Pegasus Plus?
Chris! You are right on! The S4 is definitely interesting to me! I've had to purchase my Asics Sortie Magic RP6's from an eBay vendor in Japan. Great shoe for fast runs and speedwork. Mmm, have to look into the S4. You have developed new categories for these sorts of shoes...genious! They make sense. You are so right about the Saucony Kinvara Pro...what was that about? Marketing, no doubt. A real abysmal shoe.
Asics Japan still has so many classic flats and old school silhouettes. We get a few of them here in Taiwan, but in odd colorways. No S4 here though, which is odd because it would be VERY popular here. I hope some MBA student writes the case study on the Kinvara Pro nightmare and it finds its way to shoetube...I would love to read it.
Super trainer/ performance trainer, from my POV they are terms that are interchangeable and think it's just semantics now. I haven't tried any previous Magic Speeds and I don't want to shell out for a $200+ shoe that I will only use sparingly so the MS4 intrigues me. I've been reading people using it as a combo super/performance trainer and race day shoe for under $200. Don't always agree with your thoughts and opinions but I like to see both sides of the spectrum when it comes to shoe reviews to get an overall picture before shelling out 💵. I thoroughly enjoy your graphs, keep them videos coming 🤙 👍
I appreciate the thoughts here. I know I have strong opinions and opinions that are often counter to the prevailing ones in the space...but that is what I do here, very often trying to balance out what I don't see others talking about in the space.
Hahaha no holding back in this one. I agree on a lot of what your saying. I have big feet so many of these super trainers have become just daily trainers for me due to weight so i guess I'm an edge case. Performance trainer is a good term for them. Currently I'm mainly using the Boston 12's and DNE2 & 3's.
@@SagasuRunning yeah anything 350g and below is ok. Most daily’s & easy shoes are up to and over 400g. The trade off of cushioning for added weight is not worth it on daily, easy or recovery runs a lot of the time.
The Boston 12 is a better option. Better foams, better geometry…. Cheaper price and sales everywhere. But if you want to stick to Asics…. The extra $30.00 USD is worth spending for the SB2…. It outclasses the MS4 on all levels.
@@L0Ls0ul I tended to agree (but the MS4 isn’t really a race shoe)…. And for non-elite runners it doesn’t really matter…. Unless it does matter to you personally (which it does to me).
All these shoes of high stack with carbon are just to sell more shoe to the mass. Ms3 is so good. I am about to get the 3rd pair. I have tried the ms4 at an asics event, and it is surprisingly firmer. I have over 250km on the asics s4, and i would prefer ms4 over s4. But in saying this, i dont s4, and ms4 should exist. I can't wait asics, and many brands upgrade the non plated shoe with the better foam. Hyperspeed with turbo would be great to see or adios with lightstrike pro
While Asics was early to have a non-plated tempo trainer in the Hyper Speed I do think they will be last to the party with a non-plated performance trainer in their super foam. That is jsut how Asics rolls sometimes. I still hold out hope that we will see the fabled "plateless" Metaspeed someday as well.
You and me both. I also suffered from PF in 2022, even made a video on how I resolved it once and for all. Lower stack, flexible and neutral shoes are what I mainly run in…. With lots of foot strength drills and workouts. I only do some workouts or races in plated shoes and rarely run in max cushion shoes anymore (unless for the channel).
Fantastic. Request/Query: Any plans to cover super shoes in Marathon in Paris (Men and Women). Saw an Adios Pro (Paris black colorway) in Women’s marathon and found it surprising. What else is there? Thanks!!!!
@@SagasuRunning - Well, as a designer myself (amongst other things’d been doing since 1997), I find this particular video a bit weird, to be totally honest with you (I’m subscribed). Just not enough data to go by for you. Conjectures and refutations, without the real deal on your feet? Why? When you can get a sample? 🤷🏻♂ Also, the marketing mix is clearly “make a cheaper Edge” that’ll last a bit longer, so as a marketing guy - yes, I went to a business school as well - the Magic Speed 4 makes sense and from what I’d heard from Asics EU execs, the shoes are off to a rather good start. As your own viewers tend to confirm. Of course, it’s your channel, and you can do and express whatever you think, but why apply a rather philosophical, post-Wittgenstein methodology rather than remain in the frame of design analysis focused on the product performance and its place in the Asics matrix? 🤔
@anatoly.ivanov Interesting perspective. I can’t say we agree here at all. This video is not a review. It’s more analysis of the space and trends I’m seeing. Maybe it’s a bit unfair I’m picking on the MS4, but it’s symbolic of the problem…. Especially coming directly after the MS3. This video was definitely editorial and and opinion piece fully. It’s definitely not a sure I’m going to go out and buy. I’ve had it in hand now, but didn’t even bother trying it on (the SB2 is so much better). I also don’t work with Asics…. I’m open to it…. But they haven’t reached out.
@@SagasuRunning OK, let’s agree to disagree about how to do opinion pieces (I prefer to test gear, talk to the manufacturer, then run an opinion piece about the overall strategy / product dev of a company). 🤷🏻♂ I’d maybe only suggest stating the “untested shoe, using it on specs-only basis to discuss ASICS’ overall design and sales strategy” more clearly? Possibly a different thumbnail / or playlist? Have you reached out to ASICS? They are quite open to discussion. Especially if you explain your product designer background, which is rather unique. In any case, I too find it weird the Magic Speed changes so much from model to model (in target audience, use, dynamics…) very disorienting. 🙃
@anatoly.ivanov yes, we shall need to disagree here. Typically do want to test a shoe and review it and then get into the product lineage. However, with the MS4 I have no desire to even run in it. I’ve held it in hand and tried it on and know I will not like running in it (I don’t run in many of these types of shoes, especially right now). I have done editorial pieces on a few other shoes on this channel, that I think are importent to discuss, bother their place in running shoes and/or technical details… but that I have no desire to run in (even if they were sent to me)…. The Prime X is one that comes to mind…
Ok so people rarely bring up the Nike Tempo which is my all time favorite do everything shoe but is now unfortunately obsolete. Would you recommend the MS4 or the Peg Plus as closest to it?
the MS4 is closer....but the new Nike ZoomFly 6 will be as close as you can find likely. Nothing else will be remotely close to it. The Peg Plus is an outstanding shoe...but very different.
@@SagasuRunning thank you! I just saw something about that and I think I will go for both the peg plus to try it, and then await the ZF6 in November. I saw that it actually looks very similar to AF3, which I am thinking will work for racing. Thanks again for your comments!!
"Plated performance trainer" does seem like a clearer and more specific description than "supertrainer." I've tried to stay away from them because I felt they would be counterproductive to training foot and leg strength. It helps that they're pricey.😄Didn't know the Hyperspeed was Asics' non-plated performance trainer. I've seen the Hyperspeed 3 in stores, but not the 4, not yet anyway.
I completely agree. It is hard to find a place for MS4 in ASICS rotation. If I were constructing a 3 shoe rotation from ASICS right now, I would probably choose Noosa 16, Superblast 2, Metaspeed Sky/Edge Paris is the better rotation. As you can see I left out popular Novablast 4 out. I liked Novablast OG which lasted incredibly long for me. Novablast 2 was a minor update. I could get Novablast 3 but I had too many daily trainers. Tested Novablast 4 in a demo run and felt it became too bulky, heavy shoe with less energy return than Novablast OG so a pass for me.
You can definitely do alot with that rotation. Im not a big fan of the Noosa 16 (too much rocker) but it's Asics's most neutral'ish trainer. The Cumulus isn't for daily training anymore, the hyper speed 4 is a bit too minimal, the Evoride series is WAY too rockered and there is too much overlap between the NB4 and the SB2 in this rotation. MS4 still not needed... I wasn't a fan of the NB3 at all...but I have enjoyed the NB4.
Can I ask a question: I am a runner who feels both Vaporfly 2 and Adidas Pro 2 , doesnt have a stable or dense enough heel , when I do marathon pace. I become more of a heel striker at this speed. It seems like the heel gets mushy and disappear. Its like the shoes get very forefoot dominant. I feel a shoe like Triumph 21 has enough resilience and support in the heel, but this is not a fast enough shoe. When now searching for mye next supershoe for marathon or supertrainer, which shoe is the best for heel striking. Is this more like Superblast 2 or something? I do not have a big budget so if you have any suggestions of either race shoe or supertrainer.
You want to check out the Endorphin Pro 4. It may be the best heel striking carbon plated super shoe on the market, from both durability AND performance. It's very good and very fast as well. Pair that with a Superblast 2 as the long run trainer, add in a daily training of your choice....and you are covered.
Frankly, I don't want to wear plated shoes that often during the training cycle. So I'm a fan of the superblast taking a no plate approach. Arguably, that one shoe can do everything from easy to threshold pace for me. For marathon training, considering how long each run is, I want to be prioritizing comfort and getting more miles in instead of feeling fast.
That is definitely the Superblast. I prioritize non plated shoes weekly, but do 1-2 workout in a super shoe many week, though I've been replacing one of them with the Peg Plus as of late. However, I've run like this for years now. My feet (and legs) feel better for it. Plus that feeling of putting on a plated super shoe and feeling FAST is amazing.
I feel like you need to speak with the doctors of running, i feel like your ideas and beliefs of plated shoes or training and foot strength are not coming from any research. Its fine not to want to train in plated shoes but there is no evidence for or against plated trainers in terms of injuries at least statistically significant in terms the quality of studies. As a DPT i would point to a lot of different reasons why to get hurt and injured and almost any shoe can be used if you have muscle balances that can be overcome through smart exercises and training.
You sound like the tobacco industry in the 1960's. "Amol Saxena, a leading sports podiatrist in Palo Alto, California, also points out issues with the prescriptive rigidity of the plates. “The problem with the carbon-plated shoes is that your foot is individualized, and the carbon plate is not,” Saxena says. “So if the shape or length of your metatarsals line up differently than where it has to bend, or your plantar fascia is less flexible, you can get stressed in those areas-that’s why people are breaking down. I’ve had people break or tear things just in one run in the shoes.” - OutsideOnline. "Research has also shown that running in supershoes changes your form: It decreases your cadence, increases stride length and peak vertical forces, and alters foot mechanics. All these add stress to joints. “When you put a supershoe on, you basically have a trampoline,” Dicharry says. “It’s going to compress and rebound, and creates a different rate of loading to muscles and joints.” While no studies to date directly demonstrate that supershoes cause injury, evidence links them to stress fractures, plantar fasciitis, achilles tendinopathy, and other foot and lower-leg issues"- (same article as above). "Kim Hebert-Losier, a researcher in sports biomechanics at the University of Waikato in New Zealand, told Live Science that injuries in the knee, hip and back are also likely to occur in carbon-plated shoe wearers, as well as ankle sprains, due to the high stack height causing instability." - LiveScience It's only been a tiny handful of years that casual joggers, people with BMI's above 25, etc. are wearing Carbon. As the numbers grow, the injuries will mount, the studies will increase, the shoe industry will not be able to claim it was 'unaware' and there will be a class action lawsuit. Carbon shoes will be sold with a warning label no different than other products that a proven to be a risk to health.
@@therapygrind you maybe right but are these meta-analysis? Are the even double blind studies? Are they randomized? How does this generalize to the general population, are you in the clinic seeing significant injuries solely on these shoes? I am not I am seeing the same weaknesses that happen to runners before and after the super shoe era. The point I'm trying to make is that the evidence unfortunately because it is hard to study does not support any ideas either way. I don't care what anybody wears I'm just going about it ina rational objective manner. I run in all type of shoes but I don't tell people what they should or should not wear. These studies articles you are stating aren't studies, they aren't scientifically high quality, it's an informed opinion that needs to be studied before making any bold claims. I can make an argument that if you are racing in carbon shoes you need to train in carbon shoes to reduce injury so that you can adapt to them. Because you need to experience the forces in them to allow for reduced injury while racing.Do I have a meta-analysis to support that? No but it's a solid thought process that would need to be studied. Then maybe we can figure out a protocol at which you should train in the shoes. But that's just one shoe you would need to study different type of plate configurations different forms different running surfaces different distances different weekly mileage. That's assuming that the test subjects don't have physiological/ unbalanced that were going to already Injure them. Are you understanding why you can't just say either way until good studies are done there is no way you can control for confounding variables
@@twanphan7467 Ever heard the term "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" and are you claiming carbon shoes are indistinguishable from non-carbon on their metatarsal stress loads? This is all in its infancy, give it some time, let a critical mass of recreational runners accrue with BMIs of 28, 29, and 30+ who have worn carbon for a couple of years as daily trainers, the large in scale research and study will come - but there's already enough 'out there' to see something is rotten in Denmark. Title: Bone Stress Injuries in Runners Using Carbon Fiber Plate Footwear, Dustin Moyer, DPM Reference: Tenforde, A., Hoenig T., Saxena A., and Hollander K. “Bone Stress Injuries in Runners Using Carbon Fiber Plate Footwear.” Sports Medicine, 2023. Results: Five athletes that were diagnosed with Bone Stress Injuries (BSI) of the Navicular, in the authors’ opinion, a result of Carbon Fiber Plate Footwear use. The training of faster velocities for athletes can also explain the demands of increased skeletal loading on the foot using CFP footwear. [end]
I actually listen to DOR quite a bit and find their analysis of the research and studies in the space fascinating. In fact they have informed my opinions quite a bit over the years, though the roots of my POV go back into barefoot running and a few coaches I've met over the years. Those muscle imbalances that you can overcome with smart training and exercises. Absolutely zero percent of those recreational runners running only in a pair of super trainers, because they "seem cool" or "that's what the running store said was best", are training smart OR doing any type of drills/exercises to overcome anything. They are just going out and plugging away in a shoe that is ultimately doing more harm for them than good.
So my own personal experience with alot of this has no value for my opinion? Ive been running a long time, long before this current era in running and running shoe technology. I know what works for me and my feet. I also have been lucky to be around a lot of high level runners (and triathletes in my cycling days), not elite level, but sub-elite or D1 college level, and I also know alot of their coaches... I see what they are running and training in and understand the reasoning from many of their coaches. This has also informed my POV on all of this heavily since 2016/17. I understand what are getting at with good studies and data...however, i'm not trying to present a double-blind study. I'm looking at the industry as a product design and experienced runner and expressing issues I see AND hear discussed in private chats and conversations often.
Hi Sagusa 💪 I watch a lot of your vids. Thank you for your deep analysis. It’s fantastic. I just want to have your opinion about speed work shoes. Right now I’m looking for the comparison of Adidas takumi sen 10 & Asics metaspeed edge paris. What do you think is work better for a bit wide foot? Thank you 🎉
Hmmm, neither is a wide shoe or suits a wide foot. But, between the two I'd say the Takumi Sen 10 is slightly wider, also make sure you go up AT LEAST half a size (see my initial impressions video on the TS10 for me). The MSEP is one of the narrowest shoes you can buy, so I wouldn't recommend it for a wide foot.
@@SagasuRunningI have been watching your Takumi sen 10 & Metaspeed Edge. I think I want to find a low stack & light weight shoe for my tempo day. What you recommend?
@progapbanyat566 A wider option is the Adidas Adios 8, non-plated (I don’t know about the fit of the new Adios 9). The Adidas Adios Pro 3 also has a wider fit (for a race shoe) but isn’t a great speed day shoe. The Vaporfly 3 is much more generous in fit, not wide, but generous. I just did a 200/400 workout in them today. Wide speed shoes are rare as you really want a tight race fit on them.
For me the Nike Tempo remains the fastest and most effective of all "super" trainers. It was right up there with Vaporfly and Alphafly for me in terms of outright pace
Agree. It was absurd and obnoxious and you never didn’t feel like you were running in a ton of tech… I can’t say I enjoyed running in it… but it was fast. I really did work.
The outsole of my right foot tore apart right beneath the pod at 140km, but I loved running in them for EVERY ONE OF THOSE 140km. That thing was clunky, bizarre, noisy, super tight, not too comfortable, the geometry was too aggressive, but nonetheless, it was the fastest shoe I've ever had.
@@robbarnett524 I will admit I did like that shoe for hill repeats. It did a good job absorbing the downhills and gave a good pop at toe off uphill. But the other 99.99% was about useless for me. They have been sitting on my rack for a year 🤣
Went for a run this morning in my Magic Speed 4's and had to leave one last comment on the video. This is a fairly negative shot towards Asics and their marketing team. In my opinion, they've created a pretty stellar shoe that competes directly against the Adidas Takumi 10, Nike Streakfly, Adidas Boston 12, and Saucony Endorphin Speed 4, all shoes that you've worn and positively reviewed on your channel. So, if the knock against Asics and the Magic Speed 4 is really an overall critique of the performance trainer segment of the market, then I think critiques should be as vigorously applied to all brands. If the idea is that the Metaspeed Paris series makes the Magic Speed 4 redundant because they can serve as both speed trainer and raised a shoe, then by the same logic, the Boston 12, Nike Streakfly, Endorphin Speed 4, Hyperion Max 2, and Takumi Sen 10 are also redundant by virtue of their brands' respective super shoes. To use the magic speed 4 as the scapegoat for an entire market segment utilized by all brands is a bit unfair in my opinion. On the other hand, if the video is a critique on the Magic Speed 4, and a comment on the direction of the design changes as compared to the Magic Speed 3, then I think it might be incumbent upon you to actually put the shoes on and see how those changes impact the performance. The Nike Pegasus has certainly changed from its first version to its current form. The stack height has dramatically increased, the upper materials have changed significantly, type of foam used is totally different, and about a hundred other things on top of those. I think we would both agree that despite these changes, the Pegasus still remains true to its overall concept and fits squarely in the same place within the market as it did 40 years ago (daily trainer). Sure the Magic Speed 4 has gained some stack height and weight. There is a little bit more cushioning in the upper. However, it still maintains the extremely rigid plate, the FF blast plus in the midsole, and now has FF turbo in the forefoot, which helps the shoe not only maintain but improve on it's really aggressive toe off (all things that you loved about the 3's). This year's model is not much of a deviation from last year's model, and I maintain that it still fills The exact same spot in Asics' lineup as the Magic Speed 3 did. I absolutely love your design talks and am a monthly subscriber to the channel! The depth of shoe discussion, including the discussion on this video, are why this is my favorite shoe tube channel :-) However, I do think this one was a bit unfair. An honest critique of the design choices and marketing strategy led to (in my opinion) pretty strong assumptions as to shoe performance. This in my opinion felt like a negative review without the most important component, experience on feet. I guess my feeling is that anything that would dissuade someone who is looking at the Brooks Hyperion Max 2, Adidas Boston 12, or Saucony endorphin Speed 4 from considering the Magic Speed 4, should be based on a more concrete foundation than design alone. Keep up the great work and thanks for providing such a good forum to agree and disagree. Love what you do and I'm really grateful that you put together a platform that allows me to be a paid subscriber.
It definitely was intended as a knock on Asics as I think they have been making some odd product moves as of late. Magnified by the fact they seemingly have done no wrong the past 4-5 years. The MS4 is symptomatic of the issue I was highlighting…. And the other shoes I showed in that category are calling out the other major offenders of that style shoe. Asics was my target but they are not alone here, at all. We definitely don’t always need to agree. That’s what makes this type of video so interesting. The dialog and conversation on it. I love that engagement. Comments like this one (and the larger chain) are partly why I make these editorial style videos… because they start this (great) conversations! Thank you for watching and engaging…. And being a member. I value it all endlessly. 🤙🏻
Running full time in plated shoes reduces training stimulus to the muscles in your feet and strains your tendons, Achilles and ankles. Basically you get weaker feet from only running in them. Rotating them with non plated shoes makes sure there is a balance in training stimulus.
You should take a look into the ASICS Noosa Tri. For me it is my favorite shoe all time. For reference I run 60-80 miles a week for college. I think that it would make this discussion even more interesting for the fact that the shoe really functions as a really good uptempo/tempo trainer for me. It has a very similar underfoot feel to the metaspeed series, but is not plated and doesn’t have a super foam. Also, you may really enjoy running in it because it is a lowerish stack and really a nice simple shoe.
I'm aware of them and many have asked me to cover it. However I'm not a fan of FFBlast+ (ECO is ok, but vanilla is not my thing) and the massive toe rocker that creates the "energetic toe-off and advanced energy savings" feels awful to me foot when I've tried this shoe on. I know it's a favorite of many, but it's not for me.
@@SagasuRunning I agree, I really liked the 15 but the FFBlast+ midsole on the 16 just felt slappy and a massive downgrade, I had to return it. The hyper speed 4 interests me as an alternative, but as much as I like regular FlyteFoam in the noosa tri 15, equivalent performance trainer shoes like the rebel or pegasus plus seem to use some race foam. do you think hyper speed 4 its still a good option?
Yes, the HS4 is a much more classic race flat, compared to the other options. Especially if you like FF…. You find it a very lightweight and useful shoe.
My ego wants to have a couple of pairs of plated "super trainers" but my brain or the wise guy on one shoulder tells me I’m a light weight-performance-daily trainer guy ( Hyperspeed, Mach 6, Kinvara 14/15, Rebel V3/4, Noosa Tri). I really enjoy running in those kinds of trainers and they are usually reasonably priced.
Having both is the way. Spend most of your time in the lightweight non-plated performance trainer and pull out the super shoe on occasion you want to go extra fast...
Hi Sagasu, I've been in China the last two weeks and I bought 2 Li-ning shoes: first Feidian Challenger 3 that was all right and then the Feidian Elite 4 that I found very interesting: light, fast and very stable for that kind of shoe. This shoe is very comfortable also at slow paces! Price in China is very convenient, almost 50% compared for instance with the Saucony Endorphin pro 4. Have you heard about this Chinese running shoes? (P. S. Sorry about my english....)
I never understood the appeal of the Mach X or Kinvara Pro or SC Trainer. Daily miles should be in a good daily trainer which all brand now have excellent daily trainers. Its fun for brands to every now and then drop a crazy shoe like the Prime X Strung or Hoka Skyward just to make something ridiculous as a one-off shoe that is a really fun shoe to pull out every now and the as a luxury item for running shoe geeks and big runners who compress regular foams. I'm more excited for really good non-plated performance trainers that are more tilted for performance than a daily trainer. This type of shoes make way more sense than a plated training shoe like the SC Trainer/MS4/MachX.
I keep getting baffled by your insights, and how you explain these things in such a way, that I see the running shoe world in a new perspective. It makes so so much sense, with the way you take “super shoes”, and put them into these 3 categories. It really makes a broad perspective in the trends right now, and what shoe manufacturers are trying to achieve with their new shoes. I have a question in relation to this topic. I’ve seen multiple argue that running in plated shoes on a regular basis is bad for some of the muscles in the ankle area, because they limit the natural function of the balancing happening in the ankle. Do you see the non-plated performance categories as a result of these needs for doing more natural kind of running? And where do you see the industry going with plated shoes? Will every running shoe be plated in the future when costs drop, and there are stiffness levels for different needs? Or maybe you don’t agree with the overuse of plated shoes? Thanks again for your amazing content! 🙏 Really appreciate it! 👟🙌
I’m glad my content is helpful. I’m happy it can help you see things in a new way. Per your question…. I partly think it’s a reaction to some of the forces you describe. What I’m hearing from the coaches I talk to, that work with high level athletes, is that those athletes are feeling they are loosing a lot of training effect. Both in foot and leg strength but also in mechanics AND feel for the ground (proprioception). So a lot to them are wanting to go back to first principles and put the emphasis back on training. I’ve also heard a few coaches talk about and increase in Achilles and ankle issues with their athletes due to a lack of stabilization strength and/or and over dependence on a plate in the midsole. I actually think we are going to see new ideas with plates and engineering of race shoes. Especially once next gen foams arrive. You’ll have plated races, stabilized racers (rods, shanks, wings) and none plated racers. It’s all going to split apart again as brands explore what’s next and what’s possible. I made a video on all of this…. But weight is the next battle ground for race shoes. We are going to see lower stacks at some point (saving more weight) and this will usher in the new foams… it’s going to be exciting. Many ideas will fail, but a few will stand out and start a new era of running shoes, just like the VF4% did in 2017.
@@SagasuRunning Amazing insight again, and thank you so much for your answers! Sounds very exiting with next gen foams and the lower stack height, because of increased focus on weight savings. It all makes a lot of sense! I really appropriate it 🙏
I thought it is a MS4 review. But (for me) turn out it is a running shoes design talks (mono talks to precisely) but using MS4 design as an example. I might agree with your thought, especially where a categorization for running shoes is not simple anymore. But still, it is better to hands on MS4, put on your feet and run, then tell is your impression. This is the point where you might feel something new maybe? I purchased yesterday my MS4, but I can’t use it since I am away from home for working. But after couple of weeks, I will put that MS4 on my feet.
Yes, this was a review. It was a design critique on the state of running shoes and how Asics is both innovating new product areas and categories but also jumping in a dying trend in its last gasps.
If we apply the same logic to every clothing item, we would only have white shirts and blue jeans. Nobody needs anything else. But we are all different and like different things. I applaud Asics for giving people many options to choose from. Superblast and Metaspeed are over $300 where I live. Novablast and Magicspeed are $200. They're basically the same shoes at a lower entrypoint.
I'Ve used the Ascis magic speed 2,3,4. I like 2 the best despite bad reviews because its stiff and easy to run fast in. The three was two mushy for me. The four is ok, and maybe better for long runs than the two. Its also a good companion to the Paris as a trainer.
@@SagasuRunning Thanks! I'll try more threshold/tempo runs in it to see. By the way, can you recommend a marathon shoe for a road course that has a gradual elevation gain of 2,000 ft in a humid climate. I am thinking maybe the Metaspeed Sky or edge which I own, or maybe the Diadora Gara. I worry about the final up and down portions of the Kauai marathon.
I agree that ASICS has the hyper speed 4 in the non plated category, but it is so behind in the foam department. The bare minimum for the category seems to be super critical Eva, yet they put plain old flute foam in the hyper speed. Makes no sense. Go the Nike route and give the top line super foam in a in plated low to the ground option
I don't know if it needs that. It's a traditional flat. Asics is a bit behind in foams. FFTurbo+ is good and we will see FFBlast+ Max next year...but FlyteFoam is still a solid option for a shoe like the HS4.
that was a great informativ well explainrd viedo about the road shoes brands are trying to take us runners. In a way it is exactly how if feel. More and more new shoes on the market are just of no interest for me. When i noticed that development around 2 or 3 years ago, i started to buy shoes i liked, just in case, that at some point, there are only high tech racing shoes, max cuahioned shoes, plated shoesp and marketing gimicks left to buy. Looking at the pictures you showed i am kind of a non plated performance trainer runner. I am also very happy to hear, that i am not alone and a stupid old fool
You are definitely not alone. There are alot of gimmicks right now with certain shoes across all brands. It’s great to see the break where brands are creating silhouettes where they can push the bounties with stack, plate/no plate, geometry, etc…. And then going to simpler shoes focused around first principles…. Something for everyone. We are going to see some big shifts in running shoes over the next 2-4 years. This is just the start. Exciting times ahead.
Wouldn't you say Saucony Endorphin Speed 4 is 'peak' super trainer? Rocker, plate, fairly cushioned but neutered a bit so as not to the challenge the Pro 4. I think the marketing teams would tell us the purpose of these shoes is to simulate the 'race' companion shoe without putting wear on it, in reality I see super trainers as a way to cover a lot of distance with minimal effort / fatigue. Not the most efficient way to train but sometimes nice if you need to get across town on foot 🤷
I actually see the ES4 (and the Boston 12) as two very good shoes that defined the category in the past 3 years. Which is why they are not on that middle row of offenders. The ES4 has become something interesting, given how flexible it is and the B12 makes a ton of sense in Adidas's Adizero line. All the other STs are trying to "catch up" to both, many too late as things have moved on. Also...I agree they are not the most effective way to train.
Sometimes the shoe brands build products that include technologies they have and jumping on fads to move product but the resulting shoes are completely divorced from any training theory or science. In some cases not even a hypothesis of why it would work and then they are mostly selling a marketing mirage. This was the big and valid critique from Born to Run IMO. Barefoot everything was an over-correction and itself a fad. The Nike progenitor of this category was never based on a physiology or training theory. It was about selling a cool product that looked like the Alphafly but was cheaper regardless of whether the components and final product actually confer any benefit or are even empirically worse than older, more basic offerings. It would be nice if products were more science-based but that’s never going to happen and it is always up to the consumer to do some critical thinking in product closed.
While I agree with the sentiment of your comment…. I disagree with some of the points. We are in an era of running that product is very, sometimes too much, performance based. So much lab data goes into predict development right now that it’s mind blowing. This is a huge change from even 10 years ago where most ideas where based around “I think this should work”, with at best haphazard athlete feedback. In fact sometimes the dependence on data can lead a team sideways. I actually think that is (partly) the reason for the Kinvara Pro. The team was too focused on lab data that they completely lost sight of the actually use case of the shoe. When the Saucony team roadshowed the product on release all they talked about was lab findings and minute data points… nothing about use case. Nike and Adidas have tested and studied the AF3 and Evo 1 to the N’th degree but didn’t loose sight of the use case or feel of the shoe. As for the Tempo Next %…. That one always did feel like a bit of a Frankenstein shoe that was cobbled together because it “seemed like it should work” and was never as rigorously tested as the AF1. It mostly worked but definitely was a model for a whole new category of shoe.
@@SagasuRunning I hear what you are saying that some shoes have lab tests behind them and are still missing the mark like the Kinvara Pro or that Salomon mid-pack super shoe (Spectur?). You mentioned a Japanese ASCIS 4-hour marathon shoe. Did that ever make sense? I find it hard to believe that these de-tuned shoes are superior than a supershoe for mid-pack runners. I think there is an unspoken major premise that includes "for this price that we think is more palatable for recreational runners". I have zero doubt the shoe brands are working hard to test and develop their top racing shoes and the competition is fierce to make something that has a performance advantage while also being economic to build and sell. I 100% believe the race shoes are tested and the brands are doing their best to compete. At the same time this "tempo trainer" thing I think is just a way to sell things that look like super shoes to people who will pay a premium for something cool but not super shoe prices. I was specifically talking about the Tempo Next%, the Magic Speed 4. and other "trickle-down" concepts where I have the strong suspicion that they are essentially marketing-driven: "how can we get things that look like our cool racing shoes at a lower cost? It primarily needs to look like the top end but cost less and performance isn't really the point." I'm pretty dubious on the max cushion and control shoe and max control shoe categories. These are supposed to be protective from injury or help recovery. Is there any evidence that works? Anecdotally they don't and I suspect are more pro-injury tech. I also think there is questionable connection between any real training theory and the shoes aimed for the workout category. Many of those like the Puma-that-shall-not-be-named are pretty dubious. Is the Boston really a great workout shoe or just an AP3 with cheaper to produce materials and more outsole rubber? The Adios 8 makes a ton of sense to me as does the Hyperspeed as workout shoes when not using an actual supershoe like an ASICS Paris, Vaporfly, Takumi Sen or AP3. Maybe I'm feeling salty today.
We all have our salty days. Per the Puma “shall never be named again shoe”… it feels like they hit on something that worked (sold) initially and are trying to iterate on it to differentiate models with no real cohesive direction. Beyond that they also seem to be throwing a lot at the wall and hoping anything sticks… not the most confidence inducing moves from a product team. As for the Boston 12…. As much as I have enjoyed that shoe… it’s definitely not an Adios Pro nor is it what it was from the Boston 5-9. I think Adidas has also realized this and that is why we haven’t seen any leaks of a B13… either there is a big change coming for the line or it’s being discontinued in favor of something new. We could still see a B13 essentially the same as the B12, with a new upper…. But that would be a missed opportunity. Especially now the the SL2 being so capable, in doing alot of what the Boston 10-12 was designed to do…
Interesting. I think most would prefer the other way around. I am very curious what they do here… we have seen some things in leaks that don’t make sense… unless a big shift is happening in Adizero. Now that the Olympics are over I expect for adidas to start showing us what’s next for them…
Great shoe. As is the Endorphin Speed 4. Neither are part of the problem. I have numerous videos in both, talking in depth about them, comparing them and explaining their backgrounds.
Hi there, I'm a fan from Thailand, after watched severals of your videos, I bought Magic Speed 3, Adidas SL2, Nike Pegasus 40, all within 2 months timespan, your review is top-notch.
Not sure about the Hyper Speed 4... It's rarely spoken about, not even mentioned in a brochure of Asics 2024 models I recently saw and just seems more like a cheap and simple shoe aimed at high school kids. Maybe they're more popular in Asia? They should just stick with the Noosa/Evoride series for that non-plated tempo trainer but at this point it probably should have higher end foam to keep up with the competition. I think the Magic Speed 4 is an attempt at creating a budget plated speed and race day shoe that has more versatility in distance compared to the MS3. Again the foams don't match the competition but that seems to be a common theme with Asics, though it's ultimately down to how the shoe performs and not what it's made of. Would love to try the MS4 because it does seem to be getting some positive reviews but we'll see. But it's pretty obvious that they don't really know what they want the Magic Speed to be long-term.
The hyper speed has been Asics's "racing flat" for a while now...and yes it has a high school XC lean (especially in california) but it's an excellent shoe tha tis often used as the "control" in studies on plated shoes for a reaosn. it's about as stripped down and basic as it gets. The HS4 adds a little more foam and a better upper and outsole. The Noosa/Evoride have too much rocker. That is why i don't like either. I really don't care for heavily rockered shoes.
If you are for easy runs to be done in "boring"/ lower stack shoes like the Peg, as you say "to build up foot strength", and that it's better to just go with the brand's top carbon racing shoe for speedwork and long runs (as you keep constantly calling out that super shoes are faster than their performance counterpart - which they undoubtedly are), why do you need a Peg Plus in the line up then? You are applying very different lenses arbitrarily to brands you prefer. So it's okay if Nike or Adidas produces a "super trainer" but not Asics or Puma? You're contradicting yourself by jumping between existence of the MS4 and super/performance trainers generally.
I called out Nike Zoom Fly 6 as problematic as the MS4, it was on the same wrong. Systematic of the same issue. Especially so the MS$ and the ZF6, more than what Puma or Hoka are doing, at least Hoka and Puma jumped in at the beginning of the trend and helped to create the class of shoes...while Nike and Asics are jumping in on it in it's last gasps... Nike and Adidas are producing a new generation of shoes here... neutral, lower stacked, flexible pure super foamed shoes. You are going to see this from all the brands in the next 12-18 months. Asics has been producing some great shoes in the past 4-5 years, but the MS4 is not it. Why do speedwork in a non-plated super foamed shoe? Is that a rhetorical question? Serious question...
@@SagasuRunning You're not addressing your original question and jumping at the specific design elements / perceived performance in each brands' lineups without trying some of the shoes, which is completely fine (your money, your choice) but to make harsh comments through pure speculation is quite unfair. Are you trying to convey "super trainers" should not exist or whether the MS4 should not exist? Your responses in the comments section of this video doesn't corroborate...
@nntdngyn I am conveying the ST template, as we have seen it, is ending and the MS4 is systematic of a product team (regardless who asked for the shoe revision the direction they went) jumping onto a trend as it is ending. This is clearly seen as Asics is leading the other directions it is going. The Hyper Speed 2/3 was hugely impactful and useful for many runners wanting to stop training in plated shoes all of the time. As well as often being the control shoe in many plated trainer studies. It’s one of those shoes that has had a huge impact define the scenes. I would also argue that the Superblast created the category (with the Prime X) that we are seeing develop as well, as you are seeing ultra stack and crazy plated shoes (from the Prime X) and plateless but max shoes with new ideas (from the Superblast). Both products they have lead to meaningful and innovative changes in the industry over the past 18 months or so (product development takes time). Yet they have another team putting out the MS4, with nothing innovative or interesting, that latches onto the end of a trend. The MS4 doesn’t need to exist. (I get that it fills a gap in the line for an “affordable” plated trainer…. But it could have been innovative and interesting. Instead the team delivered something lazy.)
@@SagasuRunning Don't you think that the Superblast benefits from a Pebax plate? That it's not as rigid as the Metaspeed carbon plate? I like the Superlast but sometimes it lacks "punch" It's just an opinion of course. I think that you are more capable than me in technical matters.
Great video and it shows me how schizophrenic I can be as far as shoes are concerned. I mean, I know what I like, I love lower stack shoes, I love the Pegasus, I do speedwork in 170gram, 50 dollar flats by Fila, made in Brazil, but I just loved the Tempo Next. It didn't serve any real purpose and I kinda hate what it has led to, since I never train in plated shoes whatsoever, but boy, was that shoe fast and aggressive, even at 270g in my size 10.
You'l mentioned those Filas before. I remember Googling them. Nike has had some issues since 2020 for sure, but they discontinued the Tempo Next% for a reason and I bet alot of it was performance.
@@SagasuRunning Interesting! My guess was that it had something to do with quality control, as many people were supposedly returning them as they tore.
Yup… there was definitely that, the tearing behind the AirPods. But also (what I have heard) the shoe never had the performance they wanted and actually sold rather poorly (which is why there was so much stock popping up for YEARS).
@@SagasuRunning I got so used to this feather-weight flats for speedwork that anything above 200g feels heavy for interval work. I may get a Streakfly before it goes extinct. Do you think there will be a Streakfly 2? Thanks again!
I had the MagicSpeed2 and gifted it to a friend... after 7km It was very very firm, which was okay, but the stifness was BRUTAL. Like not even some supershoes are this stiff. Since that I dropped the magic speed series. And as I saw the Magic Speed 4 I had exactly the same thoughts? Why... for what... no need. I thought yeah, perhabs better than the Magic Speed 2... but why, just why... there is the Superblast, there is the EndorphineTrainer/KinvaraPro, Prime X2, you name it.
Product companies need SKU masters rather than product managers, every running company is over SKU'ed except for Tracksmith (and they will get there). I can't wait for the industry shake out, and super shoes to fall by the wayside. Sorry to repeat myself, but the general population does not need plates, but if people want plates then leave it for racing. You say it yourself- not only Asics but all companies cancel out marshmallow-like foam durometers with stiff plates because a plate is a "requirement" from marketing. Firm up the durometer and skip the plate. In athletic footwear and the cycling industries, every company is looking at the profitability of each SKU because product managers are not responsible for the overall line. In every go-to-market meeting, the product manager develops the "need creation" plan, but there is no science to this. And finally to your point on MS3 v MS4, if you want to build a franchise look at the Pegasus, a small jump every year. If a shoe needs a full overhaul at end of life, it is not a franchise model
I fully agree that almost every brand needs to clear out about 50% of their SKUs. There is so much bloat out there. I'm not sure the reckoning will come for the running shoe industry like it did for cycling, as costs are far lower in running... but as companies do hit tough times (like Nike and Adidas recently...and Saucony's parent company) things will get cleared out, product and people.
Yes. I dont understand the magic speed 4. It makes no sense. Even the way they built it. The s4 is right there. All you had to do make it global. OR. Make an actual attempt at a non elite/ raceday sky paris. I also ALSO want to point out i hate asics move towards those trampolin pockets in their shoes. The gel cumulus 26 has a gel pocket and its super okward. The ms4 has a Trampolin pocket of turbo now. Im just so confused.
The Cumulus 26 also has that rubberized foam outsole, which i generally enjoy, but not a daily trainer. They have been making some odd design choices lately...
@@SagasuRunning I didn't try the last MetaSpeed but I do have a pair of Magic Speed 3. They are brilliant speed trainer for track and road. Those high cadence runner they should be able to use the shoes for 10K or half marathon race
I also want to disagree. I think ( having both sb2 and ms4) the ms 4 is better at cruising in uptempo miles. The superblast 2 ist too clunky and the big and stidf heel fucking sucks for cruising. It keeps getting in the way. I prefer the ms4 for uptempo cruising. The ms4 i think i ment to be a same looking daily trainer to the sky paris. But lacks all the cool stuff of a sky paris.
I absolutely love the Magic Speed 3 and my pair still looks pristine (outside of minor discoloration on the white upper) after 170 miles. It’s a joy to run in and works well for quicker efforts. I had zero interest in the MS4 after seeing the images and seeing the specs. That’s not the type of shoe I want or need in my rotation. I’m surprised you didn’t have the Adidas SL2 in your non-plated performance trainer matrix. That shoe is a revelation and has quickly become one of my favorite shoes, although, I’m still waiting for the Adios 9 to release.
Oh, the white upper one was beautiful. I also picked one up last year but didn't need two pairs... The SL2 is outstanding, I agree. I wasn't trying to cover ALL shoes in that final image (B12, ES4, SL2, amoung others are not there). More simply I was trying to illustrate the point I was making. The Adios 9 is probably my most anticipated shoe left for 2024, hopefully Adidas doesn't make use wait until 2025... Now that the Olympics are over we should see what else is coming from 3 stripes this year...
Hi, first of all great videos as usual, insightful and very analytical. I bought the MS3 after watching your video some time back and that shoe really surprised me.. or shocked me! You were right, it’s the best tempo shoe out there, and I did my PB in HM with it!! Then in came the MS4 and I tried it on and it completely felt bad. Super stiff, too much foam for its original purpose as a tempo trainer. And now that I’d watched this video, it validated my initial impression of the MS4, a “meh” shoe. Again, great great video! Keep it up and thank you very much for all the insightful take.
I don't get why this exists either. I waited for the release and I was excited. After seeing the specs (especially the illegal stack height) I bought the discounted Magic Speed 3.
from my POV, Asics is basically a bunch of nerds (in a good way) that tries to solve and sell a solution to all kinds of problems and demand, even the very niche one, you want long run? SB2, you want race shoe with short stride and long stride? Metaspeed Sky/Edge Paris, you want max cushion? Gel Nimbus 26, you want max cushion with stability? Gel Kayano 31, you want cushion shoes that is not max cushion? Gel Cumulus 26, you want something like Gel Kayano 31 but have less stack height? GT2000 13, you want a JDM super trainer? S4, you want a traditional flat tempo trainer? HS4
MS4 is like oh you want a tempo super trainer that is not as big as SB2 and have a plate resembling a Metaspeed series that is sold globally? try the MS4
I think you are partially right. Maybe not nerds...but traditionalist. I feel there is the team of engineers and product designs in Kobe, Japan and then another in North American that see things VERY differently...which is why you get so many shoes going in so many directions.
Asics has been slow to adopt change in the past and it seems there are still people internally who resist it, while others are go go go 100% into the new.
Appreciate you making this video to educate us on different shoe types and put things into perspective. Again, I love your honest feedback. Thank you.
I have my POV, which isn't always the standard...but I'm glad people are interested in a different perspective often. Thank you for watching! 🤙🏻
Hi Sagasu! I liked your analysis, and the theory makes sense, but I have a different opinion I'd like to share with you and your watchers after I tried the Magic Speed 4.
I loved the Novablast 4 so much for many things (from easy runs to repeats) that I thought I needed a pair of lighter/faster shoes to pair for races (I do 5k/10k and triathlons). Based on my inputs, Asics’ shoe finder recommended the Noosa 16 (if I input 10k races), the Magic Speed 4 (if I input up to half marathon), and the Metaspeed Sky Paris (for marathon). So I decided to trust them and give the Magic Speed 4 a try. Oh boy, I liked these shoes so much! They are an amazing cruiser if you start increasing your pace at around 3:50-4:10 min/km! They keep rolling even with tired legs. You feel the turbo pocket on the forefoot. You feel the snap, and the light rocker keeps your rolling momentum. They are stable enough for races (closed a 15k race with rough descents and hills in 1h:50 seconds) and didn't feel any tendon or ankle issues (I have slight overpronation on the right foot only, although I still push with mi little finger/external side instead of the big toe). So to make it short: for Novablast 4 owners/fans, I totally recommend the Magic Speed as a faster shoe for EVERYTHING from fast workouts to races without needing to go spend 250 for the Meta. Also, these are great shoes to introduce you to the lighter and more aggressive Metaspeed series. I found them EVEN BETTER than the Vaporfly 3 for my style of running, more comfortable, and fast. I can tell that now I trust ASICS (and their shoe finder) even more. For reference - these are the shoes I've run in and own: Nike: Vaporfly 3, Vomero 17, Invincible 2; Saucony: Triumph 21, Tempus; Asics: Kayano 30, Novablast 4, Magic Speed 4; Adidas Adios 8; HOKA Mach 5; Puma Deviate Nitro 2. My current threshold pace is around 4:00 min/km - 6:30 min/mi.
If you'd like to do a fun experiment I'd recommend you to challenge your theory and give these shoes a try! :D
Reading your story is interesting. I'm really glad they worked so well for you. It's important to find what you like and finding that shoe that really helps is great.
I've got plenty of other shoes that fit for this type of workout or racing, so I have no need for this shoe (or this class of shoe) and I will always prefer to run in a proper super shoe for racing.
My current favorite threshold pace shoe, for workouts, is the Nike Pegasus Plus. The feel of the ZoomX, with no plate, is outstanding. Moving up to a VF3 or AF3 from there just works for me.
@@SagasuRunning Yeah the feel of ZoomX is hands down - unbeatable (I don't mind even when it's blended with something else like in the Vomero). But so far it has been offered in a limited range of models (ex. the bulky Invincible or in the plated "-Fly"). Curious how it feels in the new Turbo ehm Plus ...
@SalvatoreSittinieri it’s so so good… pure ZoomX in a not bulky and not overly rockered shoe…. With no plate or shank = magic.
I full on agree with you. I tested the magic speed 4s today , and the faster I ran the better they became. Personally I only recommend them if you are going for very speedy runs. Or else look for something more comfortable at lower paces.
Ouch, not the discussion I wanted to hear, but expected. After four ship delays, I finally received my MS4. My original intent for this shoe was as an uptempo training partner for the SkyP. Because of the price and durability, I didn't want to put miles on either the SkyP or the SB1. I use the SB1 strictly for long runs with workouts (fast finish, surges, etc.). For ez pace long runs I use the NB4. After the delays, it became a matter of principle. I've used it twice so far and found it stiff, but with repeated use it should soften. I have 90 days. If it doesn't work out then I can always exchange it for something else. Thanks, Chris.
The Metaspeeds really are tanks, if your legs don’t get beat up by the foam/plate combo (mine do). The Metaspeed Paris is better for recovery… but still.
The Superblast though…. Can go on and on and on… it’s really the super tank.
Hopefully the MS4 works for you…
@SagasuRunning I hope so too. If not, I have 90 days. Thx, Chris.
@@SagasuRunning MP4 I don't disagree but at least they are trying something, it's also sidestep and not needed.... it's still a great shoe but it could have been better. Asics foam i found to be shock absorbent, but the Saucony foam belts my legs up, for some reason...maybe it's the type of workouts?
When I first saw this shoe marketed I thought the exact same thing as you're expressing in this video.
However, the majority of reviews that I watched were positive and stipulated that the MS4 looked like a "super trainer" in specs, but rode like a true speed shoe. Any negativity I picked up was that the shoe wasn't as versatile as they expected, and was not geared for slow or long running. Since I was in the market for a new speed trainer I picked up a pair and have not been disappointed!
The first thing I'll say is that the true comparison for this shoe is the Takumi Sen 10, not the other "super trainers" on the market. The plate in this shoe is firm, the foam is smoothly compliant and responsive (but is not bouncy), and the puck of FFTurbo in the forefoot provides one of the better toe offs in any shoe that I've run in (very similar to the feel of the Metaspeed Edge Paris).
I agree with you that this is a mistake by Asics marketing, however, not in the same way you're expressing. I have 25 miles on the MS4 and have come to understand that it is a true speed trainer and 5K racer (just like the Sen). The stack height, weight, and less (racy) upper have led people to assume that this is Asics' version of the Endorphin Speed. It's not! This shoe is firm, fast, and surprisingly comfortable at high speeds. I'm choosing to run my next 5K in the MS4 over the MSE Paris because it is actually a better short distance speed shoe, in my opinion.
Marketing should have labeled this a speed shoe, but seemed to lean towards allowing people to think it is a super trainer. Because of this, they've caused confusion, which I think will ultimately hurt sales because there are other more versatile options on the market.
So, in summary to this very long post, I'll say that the only real comparible shoe to the MS4 in feel is the Takumi Sen 10. In my experience, the MS4 is every bit as fast as the TS10, but more protective and comfortable. I couldn't recommend the MS4 more highly for those looking for a true speed training and 5K racing option. Just don't go into the show thinking you can take it on long or slow runs, it's made to do fast.
Excellent info. The MS series has always been a “speed” shoe, the MS3 was near perfection. I do think Kofuzi said something interesting about this one…. His point about if the MS3 was the speed shoe for the Metaspeed Edge, the MS4 is now for the Sky. That makes sense to me.
My bigger point though is that more interesting shoes are coming out and the template is evolving. Choices for everything and that is great. 👍🏻
@@torenforsberg1 Not sure about your region, but I have the Asics current season tech book they are not market as a versatile training shoes but a fast tempo/race day shoes which overlap with Hyperspeed and Metaspeed.
I just keep buying daily trainers and run hard when I want to go fast and softly if I go long 😅.
But, I'm addicted to watching shoe tube and sagasu is right up there for my favourite entertainment ❤
Ha!...this is the way. Thank you for watching and for the support! 🤙🏻
Been using the MS4 for the past two weeks, intervals, tempo runs and a few 10 mile runs! Brilliant shoe and love it especially after the break in period and it softens up, works really well in my rotation which also includes SB2 and Vapour Fly 3, may I suggest to the reviewer to try a pair, allow them to “break in” around 25 miles, then come back with a review after actually wearing a pair.
I've got too many other shoes to run in at the moment. I value my time running too much to run in a shoe I won't like "just to see". That is why this video is not a review, as I'm not running in them, rather a design critique about the market.
I'm glad they work for you though. Runners having choice is a good thing.
I love the magic speed3!!
A shoe that will go down in history forever. It was that good. 🤙🏻
The SB2 is a mushy and bulky shoe, the MS4 is for tempo runs and light. 2 different shoes for different use cases.
The SB2 + MSEP/S is hard to beat and all bases are covered. Adding in the HS4 gives you a proper workout shoe and the training stimulus. The MS4 doesn’t need to exist.
I own both the SB2 and MS4 both excellent shoes but like you say suggest shoes for different training sessions, definitely nothing mushy about the SB2 though.
Superblast 2 for comfort long run or marathon. Meta speed for fast interval training or a race shoes. But This is where the magic speed 4 comes in. Some runners just want to have shoes that can do both. I think the MS4 can do long run and speed. I think this is what Asics is trying to do for a budget all around shoes. While some people won’t be able to afford the superblast neither the meta speed. but Asics added an option and created an affordable shoes that can do both. The type of shoes that you can grab anytime. But not the shoes for a race day.
That definitely is the use case for a plated performance trainer.
I think they actually do a fill a very necessary and usable segment. The biggest reason for this being the durability to cost benefit for the non-comp runner. The delta of a $180 “super performance trainer” to a $250+ “super shoe” is HUGE. Of course the super shoe is better in every way but it’s also 1/3 higher cost. Super shoes barring some exceptions like the Cielo X1 (which I feel a major class leading innovator in this way) have much thinner and sparser outsoles. The grip often times is also questionable for training use. This is where the “performance plated trainer” comes in. With a super foam/eva blend, a plastic-type plate + more substantial outsole durability, they serve as an alternative to shelling out a full super shoe for racing, while still being capable to train often at race pace leading up to an event to grow comfortable.
Can a 32-35mm unplated option with a super foam be just as fast or even faster for quicker sessions as the “performance plated trainer”? Absolutely. But it won’t be a better choice for 26.2 or even 13.1 for the average runner who’s looking for the extra aid of a rigid plate with a modern stack of cushion they’re used to, to get them there.
I don’t have a need for this segment because like yourself, I train with specific use case shoes so this class doesn’t do anything for me. But for the everyday runner who’s running in a Clifton or Cloudmonster for everything, that wants a boost for race day under $200 that they can also train in, I think it’s perfect.
I don’t think that person necessarily should invest in another flexible lower drop shoe to train dorsiflexion adaptability at $140+ and then also grab a super shoe at $250+ to maximize their running. It’s too costly and unnecessary imo.
This is commenting where things sit today, because another class of shoe I see potentially emerging is the “durable super shoe”. As the Cielo X1 mentioned above. That shoe is ridiculously durable, and the outsole is both thick and grippy. It’s the super shoe that is unquestionably super, but durable enough for frequent training that comes at a higher weight for the longer lasting materials used. It’s priced high, but you’ll get your mileage out of them without fear to justify it.
@@Nextman916 Couldn't agree with you more in regards to the Cielo X1. I picked up a pair as soon as they were launched because it seemed like a true innovation in the super shoe market that has become fairly iterative in upgrades over the last couple cycles.
I've now got 150 miles in my pair and not only are they not breaking down, but they feel better than ever. The ride is truly unique (in a good way) and protective without feeling clunky.
I had high expectations for the shoe when I bought it, but it's truly exceeded those expectations, and then some. A true super shoe that you can actually train and race in. Good for long slow miles and fast sessions all the way up to 10K race pace. I really don't think another shoe like it exists on the market.
I agree with your points. It is mainly why I said use cases do exist for super trainers, but i do find they as edge cases still. Of all the runners in Cliftons, who want a "faster" shoe and don't go for a proper super shoe, yet buy one of the super trainers....that number is small, it's already small to start.
There are some brilliantly durable super shoes out there. The Adios Pro 3 and Endorphin Pro 4 come to mind...and I agree on the Ceilo X1. Much MUCH better value for money there.
@@SagasuRunningIt’s maybe not the common choice for the Clifton runner because super shoes are sexy and many people hold that allure stepping up for race day. Although that being said the ES4 and Mach X are pretty popular in the mid pack of things. If I worked at a running store I’d point most rec runners looking to race casually towards these performance plated trainers to start FWIW. If they already have a daily trainer, I don’t feel a super shoe is necessary. Considering they’d most likely heel strike, instead of breaking down options to these 3 specific super shoes that have decent durability and rubber coverage (if we even stocked the 3), which let’s be honest most staff just won’t explain, and ultimately most people would just pick on brand and feel regardless. I’d say the performance plated trainer by all brands are the simplest/safest bet. Just my 2 cents!
Anyhow love the content, I feel like all running staff should be trained on your segment breakdowns. It’s often the biggest bottleneck from brand to consumer.
@Nextman916 If worked in a running store I would absolutely direct people to the ES4 as a great option from a basic training into a performance trainer…. Without going all the way to a super shoe. Excellent shoe.
Beyond that the Adios Pro 3 is a tank, as is the Boston 12. The Ceilo X1 is a tank as well as the Endorphin Pro 4. Many great and durable super shoe options out there.
You missed the point of MS4, you mentioned there are a lot of faster and fun shoe out there, but you did not compare their RRP. First most people is unable to get S4 so there is no point to put them in the discussion (i bought mine from Japan) otherwise you should also put Joma R5000 in the discussion too!
A lot of runners wanted carbon plated shoes but can't justify to spend hundred dollars to get a pair of top tier race day shoes, maybe they want a pair of faster shoe for training and Parkruns? Asics provided options for these runners to get a decent speed training to race day shoes! What other options are out there? Puma Deviate Nitro maybe and that's all. Superblast is a good shoes but they are 70 AUD more expensive than the Magic Speed.
Magic Speed 4 has a wider outsole and firmer midsole, so they are a lot more stable than Metaspeeds which a lot of customers found them too wobbly, as not all runners are buying carbon plated shoes for a sub 330 marathon, when brand make the shoes they will have to consider people running in a slower pace maybe doing 4-5 hours marathon time, this is what Nike forgot to do in the past few years.
You are looking how this shoe can fit in the rotation of a runner like you subjectivity that's why you don't know why they exist, you then can start making why Cumulus exisit while they have Nimbus, why GT1000, 2000 exist while they have Kayano, why Noosa Tri exist while they have Novablast, why Novablast exisit while there is Superblast and why Hyperspeed exisit while there are tatheredge in their line up.
Sometimes it is good to provide customers options to choose from with a different price tag, and not everyone can effort a 5 shoes rotation and buying expensive top of the line shoes, e.g. Magic Speed and Cumulus can be a good recovery to race day 2 shoes rotation without spending too much money, and that's why these shoes exisit.
P.S. Kinvara Pro is one of my favourite marathon pace long run shoes. There is no shoe that works for everyone but with that many choices it is likely there is a shoe suitable for each runner.
I agree with your overall comment…. However there are better options out here, mainly the Boston 12 and Endorphin Speed 4…. Tons of value there.
I do agree that there is a product need that Asics is addressing… I don’t think the MS4 really hits the mark. It’s a compromised package over all. But yes, those edge cases I mentioned all fit here.
@@SagasuRunning I don't understand your rationale.... So Adidas has a carbon infused rod training shoes and Saucony made a TPU plated shoes (which is more expensive) ... Then Asics should not make one and ask their customers to buy Adidas and Saucony instead?
The execution and materials in the B12 and ES4 are far better. The engineering and use of materials in both are better. Details matter quite a bit.
Also what makes the MS4 so insulting is how good the MS3 was… there have been some miserable updates in 2024 from very good and popular shoes in 2023. Across multiple brands. As a designer that speaks to product teams trying to jump on trends and loosing sight of the actual use case of the shoe.
Again, the Kinvara Pro is the ultimate example of a product team getting too lost in data and loosing sight of the purpose, feel and air case for the product.
Many other brands feel into that trap in 2024. Thera sloppy product development.
@@SagasuRunning You're a bit off track here, your question was "why does this shoe exist" aka why did Asics make Magic Speed 4.
The simple answer is they need plated training shoes in their line up in mid-range price to compete with other brands, it doesn't matter how Boston 12 and Endorphin Speed 4 are made and perform they are competitors! A brand won't just kill a shoe if their competitors make similar shoes in the market, they'll only kill the shoe if no one is buying them. Even some shoes are not selling as good as other models, like Hyperspeed, they still make them because there is a demand in the market for that specific type of shoes. And without Magic Speed Asics will have no plated tempo training shoes in their line-up.
You think Boston 12 and Endorphin Speed 4 are better shoes but frankly this may not be the case for everyone. I sell running shoes, I sold a few pairs of Magic Speed 4 and those customers also tried Endorphin Speed 4 and Boston 12, some people don't like the upper of Boston 12, midfoot is too narrow, the ride is not stable enough, the heel does not lockdown well... etc... so they pick Magic Speed 4.
For Endorphin Speed 4, it is not carbon plated, they are not aggressive enough for races, toebox too narrow, too expensive (yes sometimes that $10, $20 more is a barrier for customers with a budget), and cushioning a bit too soft for their liking.
And some customers just know Asics works for them, they tried other brands and gave them problems so they simply just stick to the same brand coz shoes are not cheap they don't want to risk wasting money trying new shoes, yes sometimes it's just that simple.
It's a "better shoe for you" doesn't mean they are "better shoe for him/her", most of the running shoe reviewer on RUclips assuming all runners are like them or similar to them, and forget everyone can run and everyone's requirements are different. It is always good to have more choices for different runners.
@jonleexz I totally agree on giving runners options. We have plenty of those in 2024, from every brand. It’s a good time to be a runner.
As for the MS4… it’s a symptom of a problem, at Asics and with the state of the industry. That was my editorial POV here.
I’m glad it works for some and it’s an option for some.
I’m also glad the better product teams are exploring new areas and creating even more choice.
I liked the Magic Speed 3, but I find the Magic Speed 4 to be alot more versatile. In all honesty, I prefer the Magic Speed 4 for speed work and marathon pace style workouts over the Superblast (havent tried the SB2.) I think while Asics does offer better shoes for certain scenarios (Metaspeeds for everything the MS4 does, and Superblast for long runs), there are some potentially large price differences against those shoes. Here in the US, the Metaspeeds are nearly 50% more than the MS4. In terms of the marketing/design space, I think that given the popularity of the Puma DN2, this is another reason why it was revamped to compete in that space (I like the MS4 more than the DN2 though; havent tried the DN3.) I imagine having shoes that hit various price brackets benefits everyone.
I think this is a tricky conversation in that I think it really depends on how folks manage their rotation/budget of shoes (if they have one at all.) With a rotation, I would argue that you dont really need "super" all-rounders (ie pick the shoe appropriate for that type of run.) You see alot of reviews mention that if you can only buy one shoe, buy the SB. However, I would argue that if someone only had $160-250 to budget for running shoes, to simply build a rotation...ala the Adios 8, SL2 and Boston 12 (I've grabbed all three of these for less than single pair of SB.)
Two things...
1). I agree that the MS4 seems to be a shoe that ticks the right boxes on price point and features for a certain market. That is also par tof the issue here as that is not how Asics traditionally works.
2). I would argue that the majority of people ending up in "super trainers" are not rotating them with anything. The vast majority are not people watching videos on RUclips about running shoes. They buy an expensive running shoe and expect it to be "the best" and all they need, because it was expensive.
I make a point to make a lot of rotation related content, hoping some of it gets seen by those who need it... but I know that is rarely the case too.
I'm not that fond of most of these super stack super trainers, but I'm coming from the more competitive side of racing/training so my training is pretty polarized. Most of these are just too clunky and tuned down for serious speed work and more uncomfortable than a normal trainer for easy/recovery running. They kinda just do moderate paces well mostly and I don't really spend much time there. The Endorphin Speed is still easily the best super trainer because it is a real tempo style trainer still that is light (and has the foam) enough for real speed work, but still comfortable for easy running because of the somewhat flexible nylon plate. I use it for long runs or light workouts and use a normal cushioned daily trainer like the Vomero 17 for most daily miles. I just use a real super shoe for most real workouts or long run workouts. IMO the SC Elite v4 or Endorphin Pro 4 is a better super trainer than all the actual super trainers and some of those are almost getting up there in price. Those have the performance of super shoes for real workouts but are actually comfortable for easy running too.
Truth… so much truth here. 👏🏻
One of the best non-plated performance trainer I've ever tried is the Puma Liberate Nitro 2
@@quocanhinh9870 If there is a 3, I’ll keep my eye on it…. I am curious about this model.
@@SagasuRunning I don't think there will be a new version anytime soon, but the 2 is exceptionally good. It has the perfect amount of nitro foam with very little forefoot rocker, and ok upper. At the first 50k I only felt it was kinda dull, and just used it for easy runs (I bought it as a companion shoe for the ts9) but when it passed the 50k mark it really became a beast. I know nitro foam needs time to break in but I didn't expect the shoes to be that good. Now it can really replace the ts9 in my training (of course not the race day) because the ts9's upper sometimes hurt my feet.
This shoe does have to exist. The soft upper liner finally enables me to run without blisters on the back of my feet. And the shoe is suitable for 10k up to the marathon with the extra cushioning. Asics did a good thing.
There are so many better options though, in the class and from the brand. The Endorphin Speed 4 and Superblast 2 are two shoes that immediately come to mind.
@@SagasuRunning well, i ran my second marathon and this time on the Magic speed. What a difference co.pared to my Endorphin Speed 4 i ran my first marathon in. I love the shoe!
I’m glad they work for you. Congrats on the race. 🤙🏻
My words exactly for what the MS3 was. Loved it and still do.
Such a great shoe. Will go down as one of the best.
Well, i hate low stack of tempo run shoes( takumi10, meta3, rebel4). MS4, due to high stack cushion, carbon plate, and low weight, i can do tempo run with less damage on foot. SB1 and SB2 are too plushy and less energy return than MS4.
It’s good runners have options. I’ve been craving less and less stack…
I think the stack height is an interesting one for the MS4. Feels like that in itself makes it seem a strange move, but they’ve kept the weight down which is good. Interestingly in AUS, we don’t have the Hyper or S4, so if you were gonna build an ASICS rotation, you’re gonna have to go the MS4 if you don’t wanna do all your speed work in the Metaspeed (be that because of price or just wanting to keep the ‘super’ shoe for race day).
In that case Asics really doesn’t offer anything else…. I’d still do that work in a Metaspeed though (and I have been). I’ll have some videos up on that soon.
@@SagasuRunning yeah so I guess it probably mainly comes down to price and maybe durability? Although from my experience with past Magic Speed’s, the outsole is usually pretty similar to the Meta’s, although the midsole foam should probably be more durable.
The outsoles Asics uses on the Metaspeeds and Magic speeds is outstanding. Very durable.
I’ve mentioned this to you multiple times. Where we typically differ in our preferences is where I do enjoy more stack underfoot than you. The major reason I think for me is that I’m a bigger runner. I tend to bottom out lower stacked shoes too easily. I’ve also drastically reduced the amount of plated shoe running. They obviously have their place, but I don’t want to become too “reliant” on plated shoes simply because of their stack height. I will run plated shoes once a week, maybe twice. I also use PEBAX plates much more than carbon plates. They’re less stressful on my body. As mentioned, I’m a bigger runner, I’ve had both knees operatored on, and I have a hip that needs some adjustment at the chiro once a month. I’m a former football player and power lifter. I’ve beaten the hell out of myself over the years.
That’s where the Superblast comes in for me. I will use it for long runs, but I also use it for some daily runs and the occasional interval workout. I have the Balos and love that shoe. My only issue with it is it’s almost too soft. It allows my mechanics to break down too easily when I get fatigued. I’m slowly working on some lower stacked shoes into the rotation. I have the Rebel V4 that I do like. I just got the Peg Plus, but haven’t had a real workout in them yet. That comes tomorrow. I think another shoe you could mention in that category would be the TOPO Specter 2. Full PEBA midsole without a crazy stack height.
I’m rambling this point, but another great video, Chris. Keep it up! Thank you.
I mean… the Superblast is in a league of its own for what you described. It’s a shoe that will be hard for you to overpower…. Even with that impressive background.
I can also see where the Balos would be great for you. Definitely not a shoe idea go near, more that extreme rocker for me…. But still.
This was my point. Those performance max shoes are allowing brands to explore the edge of what is possible and those shoes are going to appeal to certain runners very well.
It’s great to have options. That’s what is so exciting about the evolution happening here.
@@SagasuRunning yeah, ASICS really hit a home run with the Superblast. Every runner regardless of size, experience, or intended use can get something really good out of that shoe. It seems like every few years someone comes out with a gem that everyone tries to duplicate with their own spin. It’s both very exciting and costly. 😂
>> I just got the Peg Plus
@@therapygrind at worst it’ll be a nice casual shoe.
Great video, very informative, rhank you gor making this! 😊
Glad it was helpful! Thank you for watching. 🤙🏻
The GT-2000™ 12 was released on Sept 1, 2023. The GT-2000™ 13 is being released on Sept 1, 2024. The difference in the shoes is slim to none. Coincidence? or Planned (and reflective of how the industry moves)?
Asics is in an odd spot right now. I’m going to do a video about this in Sept of Oct…. But it feels like there is an internal struggle for budgets and development… new shoes get all the budgets, some legacy models get remakes, the core models that built the brand get ignored (which is very in-Asics).
I love the performance max category. I run in the Superblast, the Prime X Strung v1, and the Neo Vista. All are fantastic. I run faster with less effort in the Prime X than I do in the Next %. That category has been a godsend for this 56 yo who’s been running for 45 years!
While that category is not my thing I feel like it's going to be great for those who respond to that style shoe. As in so good it keep they running longer....that is always a great thing!
This is one of the best fast training shoe it’s amazing
A more flexible, lower to the ground, platless shoe will be better for speed work (hyper speed) and a super shoe (Metaspeed) will be better for longer intervals. Specific to marathon training the Superblast 2 is a far better option. Asics already has all of those covered.
Again, I know why this shoe exists... I'm pointing out that it doesn't "need" to exist.
I love my MS4s. I ran my fastest mile in it.
I'm glad they work for you. I wonder how you would feel if you ran a mile in a Metaspeed Paris.
Magic Speed 4 is really good and fast for many occasion.
But...the Metaspeeds are faster...
@@SagasuRunning 하지만... 비싸요
@@jhnkwack 하지만... 그만한 가치가 있어요.
@@SagasuRunning 하지만.. Meta speed는 트레이너화가 아니지요. 당신이 부자라면 트레이너화로 사용하겠지요.
@@jhnkwack 어쩌면 모든 훈련에 해당되는 것은 아닙니다. 하지만 운동화를 신고 훈련하는 것이 중요합니다.
I like a lot of your shoe design analysis but I have a lot to disagree here.
MS4 is a campanion shoe to the Metaspeed. I understand that you suggest runners to use the SB2 instead but for the elite runners, SB2 is definitely not fast enough. They have too much giving in the foam and the bulkiness is not good for top speed. And also for the Hyperspeed that you suggested to use instead of the MS4, it’s a low stack shoe but there are many runners who still prefer high stack ones. I guess this point is the most crucial point on why MS4 exists. Picking the Hyperspeed is just your suggestion and doesn’t have to apply to every runners.
On the other hand, the shoes that should not exist are most of Nike’s running. The Pegasus Plus is really confusing right now and if a runner has a Pegasus already, it doesn’t make sense to get a Pegasus Plus which the shoe could feel better but still not fast enough for a race.
I’d be interested in how you think all the main Nike’s running shoes exist and make sense. Should be an interesting video.
I’m going to have to disagree here. You’ll rarely see an Asics elite/pro in the MS4, they don’t need it. Fast work will be done in a Metaspeed, but be of story. The Superblast is also specially designed, at the request of Asics pros, for a stable non-plated shoe for long runs and long runs with pace (fartleks). It specifically grew out of plateless Metaspeed protos but Asics pros asked for more stability.
The MS4 is for consumers. I’m well aware of why it’s there, filling in a “hole” in the line as a cheaper plated option.
The Peg Plus, on the other hand, makes a lot of sense .Nike hasn’t had a decent fast/performance trainer in years. As good as the Pegasus is, it’s not a shoe for workouts, unless in a pinch. The Plus finally gives a durable and table non-plated option for Nike runners. Other than the Streakfly, not something Nike runners have had before.
As I’ve talked about in other videos…. The Peg Plus is a sign of things to come. You are going to see most brand releasing a shoe like that in the next 1-2 years…. Adidas is next up with the Adios 9. You’ll see a few others early next year.
I’m actually going to get into the primary use case for the Peg Plus in my next video. I thought it was obvious… but form comments and DMs I’m seeing it is t. Stay for Sunday.
The Nike shoe that no longer makes sense… at least in a performance lineup, is the ZoomFly 6. It’s as bad as the MS4.
@@SagasuRunning Seems like there’s still disagreement here. But thank you, will wait for Sunday ✌🏻
@aimnutsatit8348 For example… Clayton Young’s excellent RUclips series. He is in the MS1 in the gym only, and he said that was for nostalgia mostly…. Otherwise you see him in a NB4 and a MSSP… that’s it. Not even a SB.
Ran the MS4s for 25 miles and these are shoes that NEED the break in period. After that they feel comfortable yet still on the stiff side, very supportive and honestly very fast. It’s definitely not the fastest shoe, but I see why it exists. It yearns to be ran fast in but gives you the comfort. I still don’t think it’s for everyone but I get who they’re trying to reach.
Good information…. 🤙🏻
The Tempo is another one of those shoes that I bought multiple pairs of (5). I'm currently running in my 4th pair. Glad I have a fresh pair left since it appears to be discontinued.
Wow...you know what you like. Also a fresh pair in 2024 is starting to be worth a little something.
I’m with you! My all time favorite. I even buy them gently used. What have you found to be closest? I am currently trying AF1 and 3. Curious about peg plus and this MS4
Take a look at the upcoming ZF6… as I said in your other comment, that will be the closest thing to the old Tempo you can get in 2024.
There were women racing in them in the olympic triathlon so some like it. The magic speed is cheaper then both the superblast and the metaspeed paris so there is actually a huge market for them . Every company is basically doing the same thing so you'll just be able to cut and past this for each company so you won't have to be very innovative either.
Some companies are thinking outside the box more than others, Hoka and Mizuno come to mind right now. Some companies are much more innovative than others (mostly due to R&D budgets, Nike and Adidas come to mind. Some companies are just throwing out ideas and hoping something sticks, Like Puma and New Balance. All are valid strategies but will result in different product ultimately.
It's when brand A begins to carbon copy brand B , with a different tech stack, with no tuning for their own tech...that we get awful product. That has happened a few times in the industry over the years.
LOVE IT ! Fantastic explanation super helpful!!
I'm glad it was useful. Thank you for watching! 🤙🏻
It is actually quite easy to understand from he marketing point of view. Asics needs to have a max cushioning plated super trainer in the line up to compete with SC trainer, skyward X, Prime X strung and Neo Vista. It is just too bad S4 is not available outside of Japan otherwise it is probably a better choice.
But that shoe is the Superblast 2... Though 2025 Asics is going heavy on the "max" thing... yet again the MS4 has no reason to exist (yes, I know why it exists, but it doesn't need too is my point).
Was the hyper speed ever released in UK/Europe? Looks a cracking shoe but doesn’t seem to exist online to buy!
It’s a rare shoe to find and you may need to look online. Not sure why it’s so rare… but it’s.
188cm , 94 kg, 5-10km , 3-4 per week. now nike vomero 16. pace 5-6 min per km. what is the right choice for everyday training but ideally for 10km run? 100-180 euros/dollars? should i go to saucony? should i move to asics? should i stay to nike? quite confusing to choose without running.
I'd recommend the Adidas Boston 12 here, especially if you are looking for a plated shoe you can use in parallel with you Vomero 16. The Boston 12 is firm enough that it will hold up to you very well AND you can find really good deal on it generally.
Great content and the approach to explaining by using the graphic to show where the sweetspot of the shoe is, what slow, fast, tempo means, building a shoe rotation, how the future for some companies look like and so much more!
Underrated channel!
Quick question: MS3 or Pegasus Plus?
Peg Plus… by a lot (as a trainer)…. But for true speed… Takumi Sen 10 !
Thank you for the kind words on the channel. Thank you for watching. 🤙🏻
@@SagasuRunning Thank you for the prompt reply!
Chris! You are right on! The S4 is definitely interesting to me! I've had to purchase my Asics Sortie Magic RP6's from an eBay vendor in Japan. Great shoe for fast runs and speedwork. Mmm, have to look into the S4.
You have developed new categories for these sorts of shoes...genious! They make sense. You are so right about the Saucony Kinvara Pro...what was that about? Marketing, no doubt. A real abysmal shoe.
Asics Japan still has so many classic flats and old school silhouettes. We get a few of them here in Taiwan, but in odd colorways. No S4 here though, which is odd because it would be VERY popular here.
I hope some MBA student writes the case study on the Kinvara Pro nightmare and it finds its way to shoetube...I would love to read it.
Super trainer/ performance trainer, from my POV they are terms that are interchangeable and think it's just semantics now. I haven't tried any previous Magic Speeds and I don't want to shell out for a $200+ shoe that I will only use sparingly so the MS4 intrigues me. I've been reading people using it as a combo super/performance trainer and race day shoe for under $200. Don't always agree with your thoughts and opinions but I like to see both sides of the spectrum when it comes to shoe reviews to get an overall picture before shelling out 💵. I thoroughly enjoy your graphs, keep them videos coming 🤙 👍
I appreciate the thoughts here. I know I have strong opinions and opinions that are often counter to the prevailing ones in the space...but that is what I do here, very often trying to balance out what I don't see others talking about in the space.
Hahaha no holding back in this one. I agree on a lot of what your saying. I have big feet so many of these super trainers have become just daily trainers for me due to weight so i guess I'm an edge case. Performance trainer is a good term for them. Currently I'm mainly using the Boston 12's and DNE2 & 3's.
They are in the 300g+ range for you, right?
@@SagasuRunning yeah anything 350g and below is ok. Most daily’s & easy shoes are up to and over 400g. The trade off of cushioning for added weight is not worth it on daily, easy or recovery runs a lot of the time.
@addappt Yikes…. I cannot imagine. I’m sure Tim Grose will see this… he knows these things.
What about the MS4 as a budget and firmer carbon plated race day alternative to the Metaspeed/Superblast?
The Boston 12 is a better option. Better foams, better geometry…. Cheaper price and sales everywhere.
But if you want to stick to Asics…. The extra $30.00 USD is worth spending for the SB2…. It outclasses the MS4 on all levels.
The MS4 has an illegal stack height. I don't really see the point of a plated shoe you can't even race.
@@L0Ls0ul I tended to agree (but the MS4 isn’t really a race shoe)…. And for non-elite runners it doesn’t really matter…. Unless it does matter to you personally (which it does to me).
@@SagasuRunning well I have a good idea what the MS4 isn't. The real challenge is understanding what the MS4 is 😂
All these shoes of high stack with carbon are just to sell more shoe to the mass. Ms3 is so good. I am about to get the 3rd pair. I have tried the ms4 at an asics event, and it is surprisingly firmer. I have over 250km on the asics s4, and i would prefer ms4 over s4. But in saying this, i dont s4, and ms4 should exist. I can't wait asics, and many brands upgrade the non plated shoe with the better foam. Hyperspeed with turbo would be great to see or adios with lightstrike pro
While Asics was early to have a non-plated tempo trainer in the Hyper Speed I do think they will be last to the party with a non-plated performance trainer in their super foam. That is jsut how Asics rolls sometimes.
I still hold out hope that we will see the fabled "plateless" Metaspeed someday as well.
As someone who had plantar fasciitis, I don't like max padded shoes. I prefer a soft but responsive foam like the ones on Asics Tri Noosa 15.
You and me both. I also suffered from PF in 2022, even made a video on how I resolved it once and for all. Lower stack, flexible and neutral shoes are what I mainly run in…. With lots of foot strength drills and workouts. I only do some workouts or races in plated shoes and rarely run in max cushion shoes anymore (unless for the channel).
Fantastic. Request/Query: Any plans to cover super shoes in Marathon in Paris (Men and Women). Saw an Adios Pro (Paris black colorway) in Women’s marathon and found it surprising. What else is there? Thanks!!!!
Give it about 9 minutes… 😂
I don’t go into that depth…. But lots of thoughts on the Olympic Games.
Wait, but have you run in the Magic Speed 4? Or are you meta-discussing other people’s reviews? 🤔
Neither. I'm coming at this from a product design point-of-view, which is why this video is a "design talk" video.
@@SagasuRunning - Well, as a designer myself (amongst other things’d been doing since 1997), I find this particular video a bit weird, to be totally honest with you (I’m subscribed).
Just not enough data to go by for you. Conjectures and refutations, without the real deal on your feet? Why? When you can get a sample? 🤷🏻♂
Also, the marketing mix is clearly “make a cheaper Edge” that’ll last a bit longer, so as a marketing guy - yes, I went to a business school as well - the Magic Speed 4 makes sense and from what I’d heard from Asics EU execs, the shoes are off to a rather good start. As your own viewers tend to confirm.
Of course, it’s your channel, and you can do and express whatever you think, but why apply a rather philosophical, post-Wittgenstein methodology rather than remain in the frame of design analysis focused on the product performance and its place in the Asics matrix? 🤔
@anatoly.ivanov Interesting perspective. I can’t say we agree here at all. This video is not a review. It’s more analysis of the space and trends I’m seeing. Maybe it’s a bit unfair I’m picking on the MS4, but it’s symbolic of the problem…. Especially coming directly after the MS3.
This video was definitely editorial and and opinion piece fully.
It’s definitely not a sure I’m going to go out and buy. I’ve had it in hand now, but didn’t even bother trying it on (the SB2 is so much better). I also don’t work with Asics…. I’m open to it…. But they haven’t reached out.
@@SagasuRunning OK, let’s agree to disagree about how to do opinion pieces (I prefer to test gear, talk to the manufacturer, then run an opinion piece about the overall strategy / product dev of a company). 🤷🏻♂
I’d maybe only suggest stating the “untested shoe, using it on specs-only basis to discuss ASICS’ overall design and sales strategy” more clearly? Possibly a different thumbnail / or playlist?
Have you reached out to ASICS? They are quite open to discussion. Especially if you explain your product designer background, which is rather unique.
In any case, I too find it weird the Magic Speed changes so much from model to model (in target audience, use, dynamics…) very disorienting. 🙃
@anatoly.ivanov yes, we shall need to disagree here. Typically do want to test a shoe and review it and then get into the product lineage. However, with the MS4 I have no desire to even run in it. I’ve held it in hand and tried it on and know I will not like running in it (I don’t run in many of these types of shoes, especially right now). I have done editorial pieces on a few other shoes on this channel, that I think are importent to discuss, bother their place in running shoes and/or technical details… but that I have no desire to run in (even if they were sent to me)…. The Prime X is one that comes to mind…
Ok so people rarely bring up the Nike Tempo which is my all time favorite do everything shoe but is now unfortunately obsolete. Would you recommend the MS4 or the Peg Plus as closest to it?
the MS4 is closer....but the new Nike ZoomFly 6 will be as close as you can find likely. Nothing else will be remotely close to it. The Peg Plus is an outstanding shoe...but very different.
@@SagasuRunning thank you! I just saw something about that and I think I will go for both the peg plus to try it, and then await the ZF6 in November. I saw that it actually looks very similar to AF3, which I am thinking will work for racing. Thanks again for your comments!!
@innerathletemi Good luck with all of them.
@@SagasuRunning thank you so much!
"Plated performance trainer" does seem like a clearer and more specific description than "supertrainer." I've tried to stay away from them because I felt they would be counterproductive to training foot and leg strength. It helps that they're pricey.😄Didn't know the Hyperspeed was Asics' non-plated performance trainer. I've seen the Hyperspeed 3 in stores, but not the 4, not yet anyway.
Ya, the HS4 has had a very spotty global release. It’s much improved over the 3. Keep an eye out. I am here.
I completely agree. It is hard to find a place for MS4 in ASICS rotation. If I were constructing a 3 shoe rotation from ASICS right now, I would probably choose Noosa 16, Superblast 2, Metaspeed Sky/Edge Paris is the better rotation.
As you can see I left out popular Novablast 4 out. I liked Novablast OG which lasted incredibly long for me. Novablast 2 was a minor update. I could get Novablast 3 but I had too many daily trainers. Tested Novablast 4 in a demo run and felt it became too bulky, heavy shoe with less energy return than Novablast OG so a pass for me.
You can definitely do alot with that rotation. Im not a big fan of the Noosa 16 (too much rocker) but it's Asics's most neutral'ish trainer. The Cumulus isn't for daily training anymore, the hyper speed 4 is a bit too minimal, the Evoride series is WAY too rockered and there is too much overlap between the NB4 and the SB2 in this rotation.
MS4 still not needed...
I wasn't a fan of the NB3 at all...but I have enjoyed the NB4.
Can I ask a question: I am a runner who feels both Vaporfly 2 and Adidas Pro 2 , doesnt have a stable or dense enough heel , when I do marathon pace. I become more of a heel striker at this speed. It seems like the heel gets mushy and disappear. Its like the shoes get very forefoot dominant. I feel a shoe like Triumph 21 has enough resilience and support in the heel, but this is not a fast enough shoe. When now searching for mye next supershoe for marathon or supertrainer, which shoe is the best for heel striking. Is this more like Superblast 2 or something? I do not have a big budget so if you have any suggestions of either race shoe or supertrainer.
You want to check out the Endorphin Pro 4. It may be the best heel striking carbon plated super shoe on the market, from both durability AND performance. It's very good and very fast as well.
Pair that with a Superblast 2 as the long run trainer, add in a daily training of your choice....and you are covered.
Frankly, I don't want to wear plated shoes that often during the training cycle. So I'm a fan of the superblast taking a no plate approach. Arguably, that one shoe can do everything from easy to threshold pace for me. For marathon training, considering how long each run is, I want to be prioritizing comfort and getting more miles in instead of feeling fast.
That is definitely the Superblast. I prioritize non plated shoes weekly, but do 1-2 workout in a super shoe many week, though I've been replacing one of them with the Peg Plus as of late. However, I've run like this for years now. My feet (and legs) feel better for it. Plus that feeling of putting on a plated super shoe and feeling FAST is amazing.
For me it serves as a 5k race shoe for my slower pace and heavier build.
I'm glad it's working for you. It should support heavier runners given the foam.
Whats up with the Puma shoe not getting mentioned anymore???🤷🏽♂️
Go back and watch my video on that orange shoe I'll never mention by name again. That happened....
I feel like you need to speak with the doctors of running, i feel like your ideas and beliefs of plated shoes or training and foot strength are not coming from any research. Its fine not to want to train in plated shoes but there is no evidence for or against plated trainers in terms of injuries at least statistically significant in terms the quality of studies. As a DPT i would point to a lot of different reasons why to get hurt and injured and almost any shoe can be used if you have muscle balances that can be overcome through smart exercises and training.
You sound like the tobacco industry in the 1960's. "Amol Saxena, a leading sports podiatrist in Palo Alto, California, also points out issues with the prescriptive rigidity of the plates. “The problem with the carbon-plated shoes is that your foot is individualized, and the carbon plate is not,” Saxena says. “So if the shape or length of your metatarsals line up differently than where it has to bend, or your plantar fascia is less flexible, you can get stressed in those areas-that’s why people are breaking down. I’ve had people break or tear things just in one run in the shoes.” - OutsideOnline.
"Research has also shown that running in supershoes changes your form: It decreases your cadence, increases stride length and peak vertical forces, and alters foot mechanics. All these add stress to joints. “When you put a supershoe on, you basically have a trampoline,” Dicharry says. “It’s going to compress and rebound, and creates a different rate of loading to muscles and joints.” While no studies to date directly demonstrate that supershoes cause injury, evidence links them to stress fractures, plantar fasciitis, achilles tendinopathy, and other foot and lower-leg issues"- (same article as above).
"Kim Hebert-Losier, a researcher in sports biomechanics at the University of Waikato in New Zealand, told Live Science that injuries in the knee, hip and back are also likely to occur in carbon-plated shoe wearers, as well as ankle sprains, due to the high stack height causing instability." - LiveScience
It's only been a tiny handful of years that casual joggers, people with BMI's above 25, etc. are wearing Carbon. As the numbers grow, the injuries will mount, the studies will increase, the shoe industry will not be able to claim it was 'unaware' and there will be a class action lawsuit. Carbon shoes will be sold with a warning label no different than other products that a proven to be a risk to health.
@@therapygrind you maybe right but are these meta-analysis? Are the even double blind studies? Are they randomized? How does this generalize to the general population, are you in the clinic seeing significant injuries solely on these shoes? I am not I am seeing the same weaknesses that happen to runners before and after the super shoe era. The point I'm trying to make is that the evidence unfortunately because it is hard to study does not support any ideas either way. I don't care what anybody wears I'm just going about it ina rational objective manner. I run in all type of shoes but I don't tell people what they should or should not wear. These studies articles you are stating aren't studies, they aren't scientifically high quality, it's an informed opinion that needs to be studied before making any bold claims. I can make an argument that if you are racing in carbon shoes you need to train in carbon shoes to reduce injury so that you can adapt to them. Because you need to experience the forces in them to allow for reduced injury while racing.Do I have a meta-analysis to support that? No but it's a solid thought process that would need to be studied. Then maybe we can figure out a protocol at which you should train in the shoes. But that's just one shoe you would need to study different type of plate configurations different forms different running surfaces different distances different weekly mileage. That's assuming that the test subjects don't have physiological/ unbalanced that were going to already Injure them.
Are you understanding why you can't just say either way until good studies are done there is no way you can control for confounding variables
@@twanphan7467 Ever heard the term "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" and are you claiming carbon shoes are indistinguishable from non-carbon on their metatarsal stress loads? This is all in its infancy, give it some time, let a critical mass of recreational runners accrue with BMIs of 28, 29, and 30+ who have worn carbon for a couple of years as daily trainers, the large in scale research and study will come - but there's already enough 'out there' to see something is rotten in Denmark.
Title: Bone Stress Injuries in Runners Using Carbon Fiber Plate Footwear, Dustin Moyer, DPM Reference: Tenforde, A., Hoenig T., Saxena A., and Hollander K. “Bone Stress Injuries in Runners Using Carbon Fiber Plate Footwear.” Sports Medicine, 2023. Results: Five athletes that were diagnosed with Bone Stress Injuries (BSI) of the Navicular, in the authors’ opinion, a result of Carbon Fiber Plate Footwear use. The training of faster velocities for athletes can also explain the demands of increased skeletal loading on the foot using CFP footwear. [end]
I actually listen to DOR quite a bit and find their analysis of the research and studies in the space fascinating. In fact they have informed my opinions quite a bit over the years, though the roots of my POV go back into barefoot running and a few coaches I've met over the years.
Those muscle imbalances that you can overcome with smart training and exercises. Absolutely zero percent of those recreational runners running only in a pair of super trainers, because they "seem cool" or "that's what the running store said was best", are training smart OR doing any type of drills/exercises to overcome anything. They are just going out and plugging away in a shoe that is ultimately doing more harm for them than good.
So my own personal experience with alot of this has no value for my opinion? Ive been running a long time, long before this current era in running and running shoe technology. I know what works for me and my feet. I also have been lucky to be around a lot of high level runners (and triathletes in my cycling days), not elite level, but sub-elite or D1 college level, and I also know alot of their coaches... I see what they are running and training in and understand the reasoning from many of their coaches. This has also informed my POV on all of this heavily since 2016/17.
I understand what are getting at with good studies and data...however, i'm not trying to present a double-blind study. I'm looking at the industry as a product design and experienced runner and expressing issues I see AND hear discussed in private chats and conversations often.
Hi Sagusa 💪
I watch a lot of your vids. Thank you for your deep analysis. It’s fantastic. I just want to have your opinion about speed work shoes. Right now I’m looking for the comparison of Adidas takumi sen 10 & Asics metaspeed edge paris. What do you think is work better for a bit wide foot?
Thank you 🎉
Hmmm, neither is a wide shoe or suits a wide foot. But, between the two I'd say the Takumi Sen 10 is slightly wider, also make sure you go up AT LEAST half a size (see my initial impressions video on the TS10 for me). The MSEP is one of the narrowest shoes you can buy, so I wouldn't recommend it for a wide foot.
@@SagasuRunningI have been watching your Takumi sen 10 & Metaspeed Edge. I think I want to find a low stack & light weight shoe for my tempo day. What you recommend?
@progapbanyat566 A wider option is the Adidas Adios 8, non-plated (I don’t know about the fit of the new Adios 9). The Adidas Adios Pro 3 also has a wider fit (for a race shoe) but isn’t a great speed day shoe. The Vaporfly 3 is much more generous in fit, not wide, but generous. I just did a 200/400 workout in them today. Wide speed shoes are rare as you really want a tight race fit on them.
@@SagasuRunningThank you for your comment. I will watch your Alphafly3 vids. Cheers🎉
Sorry vaporfly3
For me the Nike Tempo remains the fastest and most effective of all "super" trainers. It was right up there with Vaporfly and Alphafly for me in terms of outright pace
Agree. It was absurd and obnoxious and you never didn’t feel like you were running in a ton of tech… I can’t say I enjoyed running in it… but it was fast. I really did work.
The outsole of my right foot tore apart right beneath the pod at 140km, but I loved running in them for EVERY ONE OF THOSE 140km. That thing was clunky, bizarre, noisy, super tight, not too comfortable, the geometry was too aggressive, but nonetheless, it was the fastest shoe I've ever had.
That shoe sucked. Clunky, heavy and crap build quality.
@@therangersinger Your opinion, albeit it's wrong :-)
@@robbarnett524 I will admit I did like that shoe for hill repeats. It did a good job absorbing the downhills and gave a good pop at toe off uphill. But the other 99.99% was about useless for me. They have been sitting on my rack for a year 🤣
Went for a run this morning in my Magic Speed 4's and had to leave one last comment on the video.
This is a fairly negative shot towards Asics and their marketing team. In my opinion, they've created a pretty stellar shoe that competes directly against the Adidas Takumi 10, Nike Streakfly, Adidas Boston 12, and Saucony Endorphin Speed 4, all shoes that you've worn and positively reviewed on your channel.
So, if the knock against Asics and the Magic Speed 4 is really an overall critique of the performance trainer segment of the market, then I think critiques should be as vigorously applied to all brands.
If the idea is that the Metaspeed Paris series makes the Magic Speed 4 redundant because they can serve as both speed trainer and raised a shoe, then by the same logic, the Boston 12, Nike Streakfly, Endorphin Speed 4, Hyperion Max 2, and Takumi Sen 10 are also redundant by virtue of their brands' respective super shoes. To use the magic speed 4 as the scapegoat for an entire market segment utilized by all brands is a bit unfair in my opinion.
On the other hand, if the video is a critique on the Magic Speed 4, and a comment on the direction of the design changes as compared to the Magic Speed 3, then I think it might be incumbent upon you to actually put the shoes on and see how those changes impact the performance. The Nike Pegasus has certainly changed from its first version to its current form. The stack height has dramatically increased, the upper materials have changed significantly, type of foam used is totally different, and about a hundred other things on top of those. I think we would both agree that despite these changes, the Pegasus still remains true to its overall concept and fits squarely in the same place within the market as it did 40 years ago (daily trainer).
Sure the Magic Speed 4 has gained some stack height and weight. There is a little bit more cushioning in the upper. However, it still maintains the extremely rigid plate, the FF blast plus in the midsole, and now has FF turbo in the forefoot, which helps the shoe not only maintain but improve on it's really aggressive toe off (all things that you loved about the 3's). This year's model is not much of a deviation from last year's model, and I maintain that it still fills The exact same spot in Asics' lineup as the Magic Speed 3 did.
I absolutely love your design talks and am a monthly subscriber to the channel! The depth of shoe discussion, including the discussion on this video, are why this is my favorite shoe tube channel :-)
However, I do think this one was a bit unfair. An honest critique of the design choices and marketing strategy led to (in my opinion) pretty strong assumptions as to shoe performance. This in my opinion felt like a negative review without the most important component, experience on feet. I guess my feeling is that anything that would dissuade someone who is looking at the Brooks Hyperion Max 2, Adidas Boston 12, or Saucony endorphin Speed 4 from considering the Magic Speed 4, should be based on a more concrete foundation than design alone.
Keep up the great work and thanks for providing such a good forum to agree and disagree. Love what you do and I'm really grateful that you put together a platform that allows me to be a paid subscriber.
It definitely was intended as a knock on Asics as I think they have been making some odd product moves as of late. Magnified by the fact they seemingly have done no wrong the past 4-5 years.
The MS4 is symptomatic of the issue I was highlighting…. And the other shoes I showed in that category are calling out the other major offenders of that style shoe. Asics was my target but they are not alone here, at all.
We definitely don’t always need to agree. That’s what makes this type of video so interesting. The dialog and conversation on it. I love that engagement.
Comments like this one (and the larger chain) are partly why I make these editorial style videos… because they start this (great) conversations!
Thank you for watching and engaging…. And being a member. I value it all endlessly. 🤙🏻
what's the negative side of a carbon plate shoe?
Running full time in plated shoes reduces training stimulus to the muscles in your feet and strains your tendons, Achilles and ankles. Basically you get weaker feet from only running in them. Rotating them with non plated shoes makes sure there is a balance in training stimulus.
You should take a look into the ASICS Noosa Tri. For me it is my favorite shoe all time. For reference I run 60-80 miles a week for college. I think that it would make this discussion even more interesting for the fact that the shoe really functions as a really good uptempo/tempo trainer for me. It has a very similar underfoot feel to the metaspeed series, but is not plated and doesn’t have a super foam. Also, you may really enjoy running in it because it is a lowerish stack and really a nice simple shoe.
I'm aware of them and many have asked me to cover it. However I'm not a fan of FFBlast+ (ECO is ok, but vanilla is not my thing) and the massive toe rocker that creates the "energetic toe-off and advanced energy savings" feels awful to me foot when I've tried this shoe on. I know it's a favorite of many, but it's not for me.
@@SagasuRunning I agree, I really liked the 15 but the FFBlast+ midsole on the 16 just felt slappy and a massive downgrade, I had to return it. The hyper speed 4 interests me as an alternative, but as much as I like regular FlyteFoam in the noosa tri 15, equivalent performance trainer shoes like the rebel or pegasus plus seem to use some race foam. do you think hyper speed 4 its still a good option?
Yes, the HS4 is a much more classic race flat, compared to the other options. Especially if you like FF…. You find it a very lightweight and useful shoe.
My ego wants to have a couple of pairs of plated "super trainers" but my brain or the wise guy on one shoulder tells me I’m a light weight-performance-daily trainer guy ( Hyperspeed, Mach 6, Kinvara 14/15, Rebel V3/4, Noosa Tri). I really enjoy running in those kinds of trainers and they are usually reasonably priced.
Having both is the way. Spend most of your time in the lightweight non-plated performance trainer and pull out the super shoe on occasion you want to go extra fast...
They could have just made more Supperblast 2's available and sold more of those instead of changing the MS3
@@JDeezle21 Agree… could have used the development budget of the MS4 for something better too.
Hi Sagasu, I've been in China the last two weeks and I bought 2 Li-ning shoes: first Feidian Challenger 3 that was all right and then the Feidian Elite 4 that I found very interesting: light, fast and very stable for that kind of shoe. This shoe is very comfortable also at slow paces! Price in China is very convenient, almost 50% compared for instance with the Saucony Endorphin pro 4. Have you heard about this Chinese running shoes? (P. S. Sorry about my english....)
I have heard of the Chinese brands but don’t follow them closely. None of them are really available here in Taiwan…
I never understood the appeal of the Mach X or Kinvara Pro or SC Trainer. Daily miles should be in a good daily trainer which all brand now have excellent daily trainers. Its fun for brands to every now and then drop a crazy shoe like the Prime X Strung or Hoka Skyward just to make something ridiculous as a one-off shoe that is a really fun shoe to pull out every now and the as a luxury item for running shoe geeks and big runners who compress regular foams.
I'm more excited for really good non-plated performance trainers that are more tilted for performance than a daily trainer. This type of shoes make way more sense than a plated training shoe like the SC Trainer/MS4/MachX.
Agree fully!
I keep getting baffled by your insights, and how you explain these things in such a way, that I see the running shoe world in a new perspective. It makes so so much sense, with the way you take “super shoes”, and put them into these 3 categories. It really makes a broad perspective in the trends right now, and what shoe manufacturers are trying to achieve with their new shoes.
I have a question in relation to this topic. I’ve seen multiple argue that running in plated shoes on a regular basis is bad for some of the muscles in the ankle area, because they limit the natural function of the balancing happening in the ankle. Do you see the non-plated performance categories as a result of these needs for doing more natural kind of running? And where do you see the industry going with plated shoes? Will every running shoe be plated in the future when costs drop, and there are stiffness levels for different needs? Or maybe you don’t agree with the overuse of plated shoes?
Thanks again for your amazing content! 🙏 Really appreciate it! 👟🙌
I’m glad my content is helpful. I’m happy it can help you see things in a new way.
Per your question…. I partly think it’s a reaction to some of the forces you describe. What I’m hearing from the coaches I talk to, that work with high level athletes, is that those athletes are feeling they are loosing a lot of training effect. Both in foot and leg strength but also in mechanics AND feel for the ground (proprioception). So a lot to them are wanting to go back to first principles and put the emphasis back on training. I’ve also heard a few coaches talk about and increase in Achilles and ankle issues with their athletes due to a lack of stabilization strength and/or and over dependence on a plate in the midsole.
I actually think we are going to see new ideas with plates and engineering of race shoes. Especially once next gen foams arrive. You’ll have plated races, stabilized racers (rods, shanks, wings) and none plated racers. It’s all going to split apart again as brands explore what’s next and what’s possible.
I made a video on all of this…. But weight is the next battle ground for race shoes. We are going to see lower stacks at some point (saving more weight) and this will usher in the new foams… it’s going to be exciting. Many ideas will fail, but a few will stand out and start a new era of running shoes, just like the VF4% did in 2017.
@@SagasuRunning Amazing insight again, and thank you so much for your answers! Sounds very exiting with next gen foams and the lower stack height, because of increased focus on weight savings. It all makes a lot of sense! I really appropriate it 🙏
I thought it is a MS4 review. But (for me) turn out it is a running shoes design talks (mono talks to precisely) but using MS4 design as an example. I might agree with your thought, especially where a categorization for running shoes is not simple anymore. But still, it is better to hands on MS4, put on your feet and run, then tell is your impression. This is the point where you might feel something new maybe?
I purchased yesterday my MS4, but I can’t use it since I am away from home for working. But after couple of weeks, I will put that MS4 on my feet.
Yes, this was a review. It was a design critique on the state of running shoes and how Asics is both innovating new product areas and categories but also jumping in a dying trend in its last gasps.
If we apply the same logic to every clothing item, we would only have white shirts and blue jeans. Nobody needs anything else. But we are all different and like different things. I applaud Asics for giving people many options to choose from.
Superblast and Metaspeed are over $300 where I live. Novablast and Magicspeed are $200. They're basically the same shoes at a lower entrypoint.
Well said. 👍🏻
I'Ve used the Ascis magic speed 2,3,4. I like 2 the best despite bad reviews because its stiff and easy to run fast in. The three was two mushy for me. The four is ok, and maybe better for long runs than the two. Its also a good companion to the Paris as a trainer.
The 3 was mushy due to FFBlast+, but that super stiff plate saved it and made it great.
@@SagasuRunning Thanks! I'll try more threshold/tempo runs in it to see. By the way, can you recommend a marathon shoe for a road course that has a gradual elevation gain of 2,000 ft in a humid climate. I am thinking maybe the Metaspeed Sky or edge which I own, or maybe the Diadora Gara. I worry about the final up and down portions of the Kauai marathon.
Los monstruos del dinero,Sagasu,eso es lo que son...mientras sigan fabricando los buenos...a nosotros...plim !! jejeje...tienes mi like !!
Así va la cosa. Gracias. 🤙🏻
I think the magic speed series is the Asics version of the speed series from Saucony
But the Endorphin Speed is a much better series...the flexible plate and better foam in them also makes a massive different.
I agree that ASICS has the hyper speed 4 in the non plated category, but it is so behind in the foam department. The bare minimum for the category seems to be super critical Eva, yet they put plain old flute foam in the hyper speed. Makes no sense. Go the Nike route and give the top line super foam in a in plated low to the ground option
I don't know if it needs that. It's a traditional flat. Asics is a bit behind in foams. FFTurbo+ is good and we will see FFBlast+ Max next year...but FlyteFoam is still a solid option for a shoe like the HS4.
Agree on this was a marketing shoe. They wanted their own endorphin speed do it all super trainer.
... likely a year too late as the winds are already shifting in the industry.
that was a great informativ well explainrd viedo about the road shoes brands are trying to take us runners. In a way it is exactly how if feel. More and more new shoes on the market are just of no interest for me. When i noticed that development around 2 or 3 years ago, i started to buy shoes i liked, just in case, that at some point, there are only high tech racing shoes, max cuahioned shoes, plated shoesp and marketing gimicks left to buy.
Looking at the pictures you showed i am kind of a non plated performance trainer runner.
I am also very happy to hear, that i am not alone and a stupid old fool
You are definitely not alone. There are alot of gimmicks right now with certain shoes across all brands. It’s great to see the break where brands are creating silhouettes where they can push the bounties with stack, plate/no plate, geometry, etc…. And then going to simpler shoes focused around first principles…. Something for everyone.
We are going to see some big shifts in running shoes over the next 2-4 years. This is just the start. Exciting times ahead.
Wouldn't you say Saucony Endorphin Speed 4 is 'peak' super trainer? Rocker, plate, fairly cushioned but neutered a bit so as not to the challenge the Pro 4. I think the marketing teams would tell us the purpose of these shoes is to simulate the 'race' companion shoe without putting wear on it, in reality I see super trainers as a way to cover a lot of distance with minimal effort / fatigue. Not the most efficient way to train but sometimes nice if you need to get across town on foot 🤷
I actually see the ES4 (and the Boston 12) as two very good shoes that defined the category in the past 3 years. Which is why they are not on that middle row of offenders. The ES4 has become something interesting, given how flexible it is and the B12 makes a ton of sense in Adidas's Adizero line.
All the other STs are trying to "catch up" to both, many too late as things have moved on.
Also...I agree they are not the most effective way to train.
Sometimes the shoe brands build products that include technologies they have and jumping on fads to move product but the resulting shoes are completely divorced from any training theory or science. In some cases not even a hypothesis of why it would work and then they are mostly selling a marketing mirage. This was the big and valid critique from Born to Run IMO. Barefoot everything was an over-correction and itself a fad.
The Nike progenitor of this category was never based on a physiology or training theory. It was about selling a cool product that looked like the Alphafly but was cheaper regardless of whether the components and final product actually confer any benefit or are even empirically worse than older, more basic offerings.
It would be nice if products were more science-based but that’s never going to happen and it is always up to the consumer to do some critical thinking in product closed.
While I agree with the sentiment of your comment…. I disagree with some of the points.
We are in an era of running that product is very, sometimes too much, performance based. So much lab data goes into predict development right now that it’s mind blowing. This is a huge change from even 10 years ago where most ideas where based around “I think this should work”, with at best haphazard athlete feedback.
In fact sometimes the dependence on data can lead a team sideways. I actually think that is (partly) the reason for the Kinvara Pro. The team was too focused on lab data that they completely lost sight of the actually use case of the shoe. When the Saucony team roadshowed the product on release all they talked about was lab findings and minute data points… nothing about use case.
Nike and Adidas have tested and studied the AF3 and Evo 1 to the N’th degree but didn’t loose sight of the use case or feel of the shoe.
As for the Tempo Next %…. That one always did feel like a bit of a Frankenstein shoe that was cobbled together because it “seemed like it should work” and was never as rigorously tested as the AF1. It mostly worked but definitely was a model for a whole new category of shoe.
@@SagasuRunning I hear what you are saying that some shoes have lab tests behind them and are still missing the mark like the Kinvara Pro or that Salomon mid-pack super shoe (Spectur?). You mentioned a Japanese ASCIS 4-hour marathon shoe. Did that ever make sense? I find it hard to believe that these de-tuned shoes are superior than a supershoe for mid-pack runners. I think there is an unspoken major premise that includes "for this price that we think is more palatable for recreational runners".
I have zero doubt the shoe brands are working hard to test and develop their top racing shoes and the competition is fierce to make something that has a performance advantage while also being economic to build and sell.
I 100% believe the race shoes are tested and the brands are doing their best to compete. At the same time this "tempo trainer" thing I think is just a way to sell things that look like super shoes to people who will pay a premium for something cool but not super shoe prices.
I was specifically talking about the Tempo Next%, the Magic Speed 4. and other "trickle-down" concepts where I have the strong suspicion that they are essentially marketing-driven: "how can we get things that look like our cool racing shoes at a lower cost? It primarily needs to look like the top end but cost less and performance isn't really the point."
I'm pretty dubious on the max cushion and control shoe and max control shoe categories. These are supposed to be protective from injury or help recovery. Is there any evidence that works? Anecdotally they don't and I suspect are more pro-injury tech.
I also think there is questionable connection between any real training theory and the shoes aimed for the workout category. Many of those like the Puma-that-shall-not-be-named are pretty dubious. Is the Boston really a great workout shoe or just an AP3 with cheaper to produce materials and more outsole rubber? The Adios 8 makes a ton of sense to me as does the Hyperspeed as workout shoes when not using an actual supershoe like an ASICS Paris, Vaporfly, Takumi Sen or AP3.
Maybe I'm feeling salty today.
We all have our salty days.
Per the Puma “shall never be named again shoe”… it feels like they hit on something that worked (sold) initially and are trying to iterate on it to differentiate models with no real cohesive direction. Beyond that they also seem to be throwing a lot at the wall and hoping anything sticks… not the most confidence inducing moves from a product team.
As for the Boston 12…. As much as I have enjoyed that shoe… it’s definitely not an Adios Pro nor is it what it was from the Boston 5-9. I think Adidas has also realized this and that is why we haven’t seen any leaks of a B13… either there is a big change coming for the line or it’s being discontinued in favor of something new. We could still see a B13 essentially the same as the B12, with a new upper…. But that would be a missed opportunity. Especially now the the SL2 being so capable, in doing alot of what the Boston 10-12 was designed to do…
Hmmm. Now that you have juxtaposed the Boston and SL 2, I think I would prefer the Boston 12 upper on the SL 2 midsole/outsole sole unit.
Interesting. I think most would prefer the other way around. I am very curious what they do here… we have seen some things in leaks that don’t make sense… unless a big shift is happening in Adizero. Now that the Olympics are over I expect for adidas to start showing us what’s next for them…
Dont think the Hyper Speed 4 Is sold in the UK.
The UK has really had a bit or miss release schedule from Asics. So strange.
Bought the MS3 on 25% sale recently. Good for 10Ks and down. It seems shoe companies have way too many shoes now a days
Great deal on a great shoe...and yes....10k and down the shoe is outstanding.
It’s a great shoe ..so comfortable..it’s a better shoe then the superblast 2 ..SB2 is to narrow in the mid foot
Interesting how fit is so unique to the individual. I find the SB2 very generous in the midfoot.
What about Boston 12?
Great shoe. As is the Endorphin Speed 4. Neither are part of the problem. I have numerous videos in both, talking in depth about them, comparing them and explaining their backgrounds.
I have the hoka mach x im a regular runner and i find this one good
I’m glad they work for you. Finding what you like is key to enjoying running. 🤙🏻
Hi there, I'm a fan from Thailand, after watched severals of your videos, I bought Magic Speed 3, Adidas SL2, Nike Pegasus 40, all within 2 months timespan, your review is top-notch.
All great shoes! Enjoy them. Thank you for watching as always! 🤙🏻
Not sure about the Hyper Speed 4... It's rarely spoken about, not even mentioned in a brochure of Asics 2024 models I recently saw and just seems more like a cheap and simple shoe aimed at high school kids. Maybe they're more popular in Asia? They should just stick with the Noosa/Evoride series for that non-plated tempo trainer but at this point it probably should have higher end foam to keep up with the competition.
I think the Magic Speed 4 is an attempt at creating a budget plated speed and race day shoe that has more versatility in distance compared to the MS3. Again the foams don't match the competition but that seems to be a common theme with Asics, though it's ultimately down to how the shoe performs and not what it's made of. Would love to try the MS4 because it does seem to be getting some positive reviews but we'll see. But it's pretty obvious that they don't really know what they want the Magic Speed to be long-term.
The hyper speed has been Asics's "racing flat" for a while now...and yes it has a high school XC lean (especially in california) but it's an excellent shoe tha tis often used as the "control" in studies on plated shoes for a reaosn. it's about as stripped down and basic as it gets. The HS4 adds a little more foam and a better upper and outsole.
The Noosa/Evoride have too much rocker. That is why i don't like either. I really don't care for heavily rockered shoes.
Uptempo daily trainers is the term.
That one goes WAY back... I'f seen that term used in books written on run training from the 1960s...
@@SagasuRunning still valid 🤣
If you are for easy runs to be done in "boring"/ lower stack shoes like the Peg, as you say "to build up foot strength", and that it's better to just go with the brand's top carbon racing shoe for speedwork and long runs (as you keep constantly calling out that super shoes are faster than their performance counterpart - which they undoubtedly are), why do you need a Peg Plus in the line up then? You are applying very different lenses arbitrarily to brands you prefer.
So it's okay if Nike or Adidas produces a "super trainer" but not Asics or Puma? You're contradicting yourself by jumping between existence of the MS4 and super/performance trainers generally.
I called out Nike Zoom Fly 6 as problematic as the MS4, it was on the same wrong. Systematic of the same issue. Especially so the MS$ and the ZF6, more than what Puma or Hoka are doing, at least Hoka and Puma jumped in at the beginning of the trend and helped to create the class of shoes...while Nike and Asics are jumping in on it in it's last gasps...
Nike and Adidas are producing a new generation of shoes here... neutral, lower stacked, flexible pure super foamed shoes. You are going to see this from all the brands in the next 12-18 months. Asics has been producing some great shoes in the past 4-5 years, but the MS4 is not it.
Why do speedwork in a non-plated super foamed shoe? Is that a rhetorical question? Serious question...
@@SagasuRunning You're not addressing your original question and jumping at the specific design elements / perceived performance in each brands' lineups without trying some of the shoes, which is completely fine (your money, your choice) but to make harsh comments through pure speculation is quite unfair.
Are you trying to convey "super trainers" should not exist or whether the MS4 should not exist? Your responses in the comments section of this video doesn't corroborate...
@nntdngyn I am conveying the ST template, as we have seen it, is ending and the MS4 is systematic of a product team (regardless who asked for the shoe revision the direction they went) jumping onto a trend as it is ending.
This is clearly seen as Asics is leading the other directions it is going.
The Hyper Speed 2/3 was hugely impactful and useful for many runners wanting to stop training in plated shoes all of the time. As well as often being the control shoe in many plated trainer studies. It’s one of those shoes that has had a huge impact define the scenes.
I would also argue that the Superblast created the category (with the Prime X) that we are seeing develop as well, as you are seeing ultra stack and crazy plated shoes (from the Prime X) and plateless but max shoes with new ideas (from the Superblast).
Both products they have lead to meaningful and innovative changes in the industry over the past 18 months or so (product development takes time).
Yet they have another team putting out the MS4, with nothing innovative or interesting, that latches onto the end of a trend.
The MS4 doesn’t need to exist.
(I get that it fills a gap in the line for an “affordable” plated trainer…. But it could have been innovative and interesting. Instead the team delivered something lazy.)
Asics should kill this line and put a pebax plate in the superblast
No...the SB doesn't need a plate, that is a Metaspeed. However, Asics could design any number of more interesting and useful performance trainers.
@@SagasuRunning Don't you think that the Superblast benefits from a Pebax plate? That it's not as rigid as the Metaspeed carbon plate? I like the Superlast but sometimes it lacks "punch" It's just an opinion of course. I think that you are more capable than me in technical matters.
That’s not what the SB is. That is what the Magic Speed should be…. I think the shoe would benefit from a TPU plate over the CF one it has now.
@@SagasuRunning interesting!
Great video and it shows me how schizophrenic I can be as far as shoes are concerned. I mean, I know what I like, I love lower stack shoes, I love the Pegasus, I do speedwork in 170gram, 50 dollar flats by Fila, made in Brazil, but I just loved the Tempo Next. It didn't serve any real purpose and I kinda hate what it has led to, since I never train in plated shoes whatsoever, but boy, was that shoe fast and aggressive, even at 270g in my size 10.
You'l mentioned those Filas before. I remember Googling them.
Nike has had some issues since 2020 for sure, but they discontinued the Tempo Next% for a reason and I bet alot of it was performance.
@@SagasuRunning Interesting! My guess was that it had something to do with quality control, as many people were supposedly returning them as they tore.
Yup… there was definitely that, the tearing behind the AirPods. But also (what I have heard) the shoe never had the performance they wanted and actually sold rather poorly (which is why there was so much stock popping up for YEARS).
@@SagasuRunning I got so used to this feather-weight flats for speedwork that anything above 200g feels heavy for interval work. I may get a Streakfly before it goes extinct. Do you think there will be a Streakfly 2? Thanks again!
I agree, this shoes don’t make any sense with the existence of the Superblast and Metaspeed series.
100000000000%
I had the MagicSpeed2 and gifted it to a friend... after 7km
It was very very firm, which was okay, but the stifness was BRUTAL. Like not even some supershoes are this stiff.
Since that I dropped the magic speed series.
And as I saw the Magic Speed 4 I had exactly the same thoughts? Why... for what... no need.
I thought yeah, perhabs better than the Magic Speed 2... but why, just why... there is the Superblast, there is the EndorphineTrainer/KinvaraPro, Prime X2, you name it.
Yup… why, just why. You nailed it. 🤙🏻
I thought you were not going to say “super trainers” again 😂
This video is my statement as to why I no longer will… 😶
i miss a light, stable, legal asics race shoe...
The Metaspeeds Paris series are legal and very good…. But I know what you mean.
@@SagasuRunning I like the metaspeed, but the heel is too narrow for me for a full marathon.
Product companies need SKU masters rather than product managers, every running company is over SKU'ed except for Tracksmith (and they will get there). I can't wait for the industry shake out, and super shoes to fall by the wayside. Sorry to repeat myself, but the general population does not need plates, but if people want plates then leave it for racing. You say it yourself- not only Asics but all companies cancel out marshmallow-like foam durometers with stiff plates because a plate is a "requirement" from marketing. Firm up the durometer and skip the plate. In athletic footwear and the cycling industries, every company is looking at the profitability of each SKU because product managers are not responsible for the overall line. In every go-to-market meeting, the product manager develops the "need creation" plan, but there is no science to this. And finally to your point on MS3 v MS4, if you want to build a franchise look at the Pegasus, a small jump every year. If a shoe needs a full overhaul at end of life, it is not a franchise model
I fully agree that almost every brand needs to clear out about 50% of their SKUs. There is so much bloat out there. I'm not sure the reckoning will come for the running shoe industry like it did for cycling, as costs are far lower in running... but as companies do hit tough times (like Nike and Adidas recently...and Saucony's parent company) things will get cleared out, product and people.
Yes. I dont understand the magic speed 4. It makes no sense. Even the way they built it. The s4 is right there. All you had to do make it global. OR. Make an actual attempt at a non elite/ raceday sky paris.
I also ALSO want to point out i hate asics move towards those trampolin pockets in their shoes. The gel cumulus 26 has a gel pocket and its super okward. The ms4 has a Trampolin pocket of turbo now. Im just so confused.
The Cumulus 26 also has that rubberized foam outsole, which i generally enjoy, but not a daily trainer. They have been making some odd design choices lately...
The Magic Speed 3 are too good and even work for short distance race, if they don’t downgrade the kicks no one would buy MetaSpeed😊
The Metaspeed Paris are excellent…. But prior Metaspeeds, I agree.
@@SagasuRunning I didn't try the last MetaSpeed but I do have a pair of Magic Speed 3. They are brilliant speed trainer for track and road. Those high cadence runner they should be able to use the shoes for 10K or half marathon race
Super trainer
🚫
Why does this video even exist?
I see what you did there!
I also want to disagree. I think ( having both sb2 and ms4) the ms 4 is better at cruising in uptempo miles. The superblast 2 ist too clunky and the big and stidf heel fucking sucks for cruising. It keeps getting in the way.
I prefer the ms4 for uptempo cruising.
The ms4 i think i ment to be a same looking daily trainer to the sky paris. But lacks all the cool stuff of a sky paris.
But also, having a metaspeed sky paris. Its my go to intervals shoe for really crazy days
The MS4 definitely is connected to the Sky Paris now. That is very clear.
This is the way.
Its a cheaper race day shoe. Simple as that
Sure...I get that...but still, there are better options out there.
99% I was never going to get this shoe. Now 100%. Thank you
Funny, I feel I say the same thing when I watch some of your videos (in the best way possible).
Stop apologizing for using the term 'supertrainer'. It makes an already overused word much worse by emphasizing it.
You won’t hear it again on this channel (unless I’m forced to use it in a quote)…. 👋🏻
Omg you used this word once again...supertrainer ...you are full of it..😂😂😂
Time to press the unfollow button..😮
Never again…. This was the swan song. 🫡
@@SagasuRunning u keep saying that..😂😂😂😂😂
@pandalife5543 🤫
I absolutely love the Magic Speed 3 and my pair still looks pristine (outside of minor discoloration on the white upper) after 170 miles. It’s a joy to run in and works well for quicker efforts. I had zero interest in the MS4 after seeing the images and seeing the specs. That’s not the type of shoe I want or need in my rotation.
I’m surprised you didn’t have the Adidas SL2 in your non-plated performance trainer matrix. That shoe is a revelation and has quickly become one of my favorite shoes, although, I’m still waiting for the Adios 9 to release.
Oh, the white upper one was beautiful. I also picked one up last year but didn't need two pairs...
The SL2 is outstanding, I agree. I wasn't trying to cover ALL shoes in that final image (B12, ES4, SL2, amoung others are not there). More simply I was trying to illustrate the point I was making.
The Adios 9 is probably my most anticipated shoe left for 2024, hopefully Adidas doesn't make use wait until 2025... Now that the Olympics are over we should see what else is coming from 3 stripes this year...
youre right. Magicspeed suck
The Magic Speed 3 certainly didn't...but the rest on the series are questionable.
Hi, first of all great videos as usual, insightful and very analytical.
I bought the MS3 after watching your video some time back and that shoe really surprised me.. or shocked me! You were right, it’s the best tempo shoe out there, and I did my PB in HM with it!!
Then in came the MS4 and I tried it on and it completely felt bad. Super stiff, too much foam for its original purpose as a tempo trainer. And now that I’d watched this video, it validated my initial impression of the MS4, a “meh” shoe.
Again, great great video! Keep it up and thank you very much for all the insightful take.
I'm glad the MS3s worked so well for you. It really was a great shoe. I also glad I'm not alone in feelings on the MS4! Thank you for watching. 🤙🏻
I don't get why this exists either. I waited for the release and I was excited. After seeing the specs (especially the illegal stack height) I bought the discounted Magic Speed 3.
Much better choice, regardless...the MS3 will be a legend.
@@SagasuRunning true. I want to use them for intervals and I refuse to choose a maximalist super shoe for that.
@@L0Ls0ul 💯