This is very helpful. Thank you for your reply. I do agree with you that we have lost our way in forgetting that the primary reason we are encouraged to gather together is so that we can be strengthened as a corporate body-and as individual members of that body. I would love for you to offer various templates of how you think a church gathering should function. That really is the nuts and bolts of the issue. I think people are hungry for a change, but they need a template to look at so that the change doesn’t stay in the realm of theory, or even worse, the realm of criticism of typical “worship” services. Having a critical eye for what is wrong can only get us halfway. I would love to see you flesh out how you think it all ought to function in a modern day context. What would a bulletin look like? Or would there even be a bulletin?
Tom what would be your response to someone who says that you may be correct that the word “worship” literally means to bow down in a directional sense, but that doesn’t mean our “worship” services/songs today have no basis. We just need to substitute the word praise for worship. In other words, what the modern day church is doing with its “worship“ music is more related to the idea of praise. After all, the notion of praise with musical instruments, is not at all uncommon in the Bible, and yet it was distinguished from worship. So would you agree that modern-day churches are engaging in praise of God on Sundays?
@@mattb7069 I'm not Tom, but I just finished interviewing Tom. You're using the word worship. What do you mean? That's the whole issue Tom is bringing up. Not that you singing has no basis, but that your whole concept of the meaning of the word worship has no biblical foundation (only a traditional one). "Worship" is a vacuous word that doesn't mean anything that we can tie back to scripture explicitly. You sing songs? Great nobody is telling you to stop, you pray on your knees? Great nobody is telling you to stop. But if you say we pray on our knees and we song songs to worship God because the bible commands we worship God - that's where this hits.
@@TheLookingGlassAU thanks for the reply. I’ve already conceded that the literal definition of the word worship is to bow down in a directional sense, and therefore, what modern-day churches call “worship“ is not literally an act of worship. I concede that. I am making the larger point that Tom might be making a mountain out of a mole hill because most churches speak of “praise and worship” services. So my question to Tom, or to you, is whether or not you think what churches call “praise and worship” is a modern day example of biblical praise (as opposed to literal worship)?
@@mattb7069 The difference between the Biblical witness (the scriptures) and the practice from Medieval tradition is the purpose of what happened in the gathering. Tom is trying to show that the focus and purpose of all that happened in the gathering was for building each other up. What Tom has suggested is that the focus of the gathering gradually moved away from building up the believers human-focused to a more mystical God-focus and the believers were gradually moved to the side into pews while the holy people called priests did the ministry of service for God. Ive finished editing my interview with Dr Wadsworth - so i will be posting it on this channel in the next week, i think it may clear up some issues. So stay tuned.
@@mattb7069 Hi Matt (I assume your name is Matt.) First, it's not true that "the literal definition of the word worship is to bow down." Any English dictionary will demonstrate that. But our task is NOT to define an English word. The NT was not written in English; it was written in Greek. Our task is to determine what these NT Greek words mean, and there are FIVE of them in the NT. However, it is true that "the literal definition of the Greek word proskuneo is to prostrate yourself." When you see the English word "worship" in your English Bible, there is a good chance that proskuneo is the Greek word behind it. But not always. Sometimes it's the Greek word latreuo, which means "to serve deity with sacrifice." *Yet, neither of these terms are used to describe what Christians did in their assemblies.* Our discussion needs to focus on New Testament assemblies, not modern assemblies. Modern assemblies are the result of centuries of evolved convoluted thinking, and our terminology for these modern assemblies is also convoluted. Our modern assembly terminology is also messed up and lacks continuity with biblical concepts. In first-century Christian gatherings, as revealed in the New Testament, all activities were to be done for building up one another. Paul's teaching on this is clear and indisputable in 1 Cor 14, especially verse 26. Did they sing in those assemblies? Yes, at least occasionally (1 Cor 14:15; 26; Col 3:16; Eph 5:19). Were those songs "praise songs"? At times, yes, but they might have been songs about the Christian life that were sung to "teach and admonish one another" (Col 3:16). The purpose of "all things" in Christian assemblies in the NT was to "build up" or "edify" one another. This is clearly taught throughout the NT. By contrast, the oft-stated purpose of our modern assemblies is "to worship God." This is a substantially different approach than first-century assemblies. In today's churches, one can attend a full 90-minute "worship service" and never do anything to build up anyone else. We may have done a great job of "worshiping God," but someone could attend "worship services" for 40 years and be no better than they were 40 years ago. But if, every week, you attended a gathering with the expressed purpose of building up one another, I suggest that you will increasingly develop into a better, wiser, more spiritual, more respectable, more loving Christian.
This is very helpful. Thank you for your reply. I do agree with you that we have lost our way in forgetting that the primary reason we are encouraged to gather together is so that we can be strengthened as a corporate body-and as individual members of that body.
I would love for you to offer various templates of how you think a church gathering should function. That really is the nuts and bolts of the issue. I think people are hungry for a change, but they need a template to look at so that the change doesn’t stay in the realm of theory, or even worse, the realm of criticism of typical “worship” services. Having a critical eye for what is wrong can only get us halfway. I would love to see you flesh out how you think it all ought to function in a modern day context. What would a bulletin look like? Or would there even be a bulletin?
This was cool
Tom what would be your response to someone who says that you may be correct that the word “worship” literally means to bow down in a directional sense, but that doesn’t mean our “worship” services/songs today have no basis. We just need to substitute the word praise for worship. In other words, what the modern day church is doing with its “worship“ music is more related to the idea of praise. After all, the notion of praise with musical instruments, is not at all uncommon in the Bible, and yet it was distinguished from worship. So would you agree that modern-day churches are engaging in praise of God on Sundays?
@@mattb7069 I'm not Tom, but I just finished interviewing Tom.
You're using the word worship. What do you mean?
That's the whole issue Tom is bringing up. Not that you singing has no basis, but that your whole concept of the meaning of the word worship has no biblical foundation (only a traditional one). "Worship" is a vacuous word that doesn't mean anything that we can tie back to scripture explicitly. You sing songs? Great nobody is telling you to stop, you pray on your knees? Great nobody is telling you to stop.
But if you say we pray on our knees and we song songs to worship God because the bible commands we worship God - that's where this hits.
@@TheLookingGlassAU thanks for the reply. I’ve already conceded that the literal definition of the word worship is to bow down in a directional sense, and therefore, what modern-day churches call “worship“ is not literally an act of worship. I concede that. I am making the larger point that Tom might be making a mountain out of a mole hill because most churches speak of “praise and worship” services. So my question to Tom, or to you, is whether or not you think what churches call “praise and worship” is a modern day example of biblical praise (as opposed to literal worship)?
@@mattb7069 The difference between the Biblical witness (the scriptures) and the practice from Medieval tradition is the purpose of what happened in the gathering.
Tom is trying to show that the focus and purpose of all that happened in the gathering was for building each other up.
What Tom has suggested is that the focus of the gathering gradually moved away from building up the believers human-focused to a more mystical God-focus and the believers were gradually moved to the side into pews while the holy people called priests did the ministry of service for God.
Ive finished editing my interview with Dr Wadsworth - so i will be posting it on this channel in the next week, i think it may clear up some issues. So stay tuned.
@@mattb7069 Hi Matt (I assume your name is Matt.)
First, it's not true that "the literal definition of the word worship is to bow down." Any English dictionary will demonstrate that. But our task is NOT to define an English word. The NT was not written in English; it was written in Greek. Our task is to determine what these NT Greek words mean, and there are FIVE of them in the NT.
However, it is true that "the literal definition of the Greek word proskuneo is to prostrate yourself." When you see the English word "worship" in your English Bible, there is a good chance that proskuneo is the Greek word behind it. But not always. Sometimes it's the Greek word latreuo, which means "to serve deity with sacrifice." *Yet, neither of these terms are used to describe what Christians did in their assemblies.*
Our discussion needs to focus on New Testament assemblies, not modern assemblies. Modern assemblies are the result of centuries of evolved convoluted thinking, and our terminology for these modern assemblies is also convoluted. Our modern assembly terminology is also messed up and lacks continuity with biblical concepts.
In first-century Christian gatherings, as revealed in the New Testament, all activities were to be done for building up one another. Paul's teaching on this is clear and indisputable in 1 Cor 14, especially verse 26.
Did they sing in those assemblies? Yes, at least occasionally (1 Cor 14:15; 26; Col 3:16; Eph 5:19).
Were those songs "praise songs"? At times, yes, but they might have been songs about the Christian life that were sung to "teach and admonish one another" (Col 3:16).
The purpose of "all things" in Christian assemblies in the NT was to "build up" or "edify" one another. This is clearly taught throughout the NT.
By contrast, the oft-stated purpose of our modern assemblies is "to worship God." This is a substantially different approach than first-century assemblies.
In today's churches, one can attend a full 90-minute "worship service" and never do anything to build up anyone else. We may have done a great job of "worshiping God," but someone could attend "worship services" for 40 years and be no better than they were 40 years ago. But if, every week, you attended a gathering with the expressed purpose of building up one another, I suggest that you will increasingly develop into a better, wiser, more spiritual, more respectable, more loving Christian.