Hornresp tutorial - How to design a transmission line enclosure
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- Опубликовано: 7 июл 2024
- This is a Hornresp tutorial on how to design a transmission line subwoofer.
Previous T-line build : • Transmission line subw...
Details about the build and written guide : audiojudgement.com/hornresp-t...
DIY Audio Courses : audiojudgement.com/courses.html
Music Credits:
"Werq" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
creativecommons.org/licenses/b... 
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Best tutorial and explanation I have ever seen on Internet and heard from someone. You deserve a gold medal.
for every video you have made. Thanks.
finally a tutorial that makes me understand how to use hornresp
“Dampening”: the action resulting in increased wetness.
“Damping”: the action resulting in reducing vibration magnitude through frictional losses.
Sorry. I had a physics professor that wouldn’t let us forget this.
VERY good video!!
Thanks for clearing that out. It’s in even harder to get it right as a non-native English speaker. :)
@@AudioJudgement Your English is always going to be better than my Romanian. (Sometimes my English is not so good, either...)
Please refer to Cambridge English Corpus and see that dampening is not only about making things wet. Also damping is a noun, not a verb. Also read definition of words "damp", "dampen", there are at least two meanings: 1) to make wet, 2) to reduce. Dampening is not a separate word. Example:
This is caused by the dampening effect of collisions.
(From the Cambridge English Corpus)
@@fort9983in an engineering context discussing vibratory motion, “damping” is the correct word.
I searched the internet for months looking for a hornresp tutorial and gave up after not being able to find one that made any sense. Thanks to this tline video, I now understand the hornresp settings. THANK YOU for making this video!
Wow. I thought I wouldn't understand the theory but you explained it so well. You are my hero. Thank you for this video!
@Tarrin Pearson - Leary its a 8 inch dayton ultimax.
Great, I love the way you explain everything, and the results you get.
I didn't think I would ever understand Hornresp or the theories used within. 5 GOLD stars Bud!
Your tutorial was clear and easy to understand. The principle of how t-lines (also called "quarter-wave" pipe) is this:
The REARward radiating sound wave (coming off backside of cone) is delayed by passing through the t-line, putting it IN PHASE with the FORWARD radiating sound wave, reinforcing the lower frequency output. *not trying to be a know-it-all here, but it may make things easier to understand for viewers that also read the comments.
How is it in phase if quarter wave is 90deg and back side of the speaker is 180deg? We need 0 or 360 to be in phase.
Thanks, figured out my my Dayton 8, lil different parameters, but got it to what I wanted.
Unbelievably concise, detailed explanation on the software and theory. Thank you so so much. You've got a true gift for teaching.
Thank you Marius. You are the best!
Great Video Marius!!! Love your explanations and tutorials! Keep it up!!!
Wish i had seen this before I built my T-line. Great video
Your videos are very helpful.
Thank you😁
Can we please see a tapered horn design?
Great explanation and usage in your own project! Thank you!
Excellent explanation. I now can check my input parameters and have more confidence in the model response.
This is an excellent explanation! Thank you for this....
That was an excellent introduction. Thanks!
yellow mattres foam is good stuffing and easy to apply
Same here. Finally I understand hornresp.
Nice work ! Very usefull for DIYers !
thanks for the tutorial. glad you were able to fix your box. that said it just reminded me why i chose not to mess with transmission lines in the first place. i hope i can use your tutorial to model front loaded horn instead.
What Razvan said! Superb. Many thanks!
Excellent video! Thank you!!!
Great tutorial. Many thanx.
GREAT video. I was building offset transmission lines in the mid-80's, with the woofer 1/3 of the way down the line. That gives you TWO path lengths, the short length being 2/3 of the physical length of the line (the distance from woofer to terminus), and the long length being 4/3 of the physical length of the line (woofer to closed end then to terminus). The peaks and dips inherent in these two different path lengths will offset one another and largely cancel one another out, resulting in a fairly smooth response. BUT I did not have the ability to model the effects of damping material, and that is imo a very worthwhile advancement.
bravo. thanks for this explanation. i've been trying to learn calculus to wrap my head around the math in Martin King's paper, but had totally forgotten about hornresp (though I also had no idea how to use it)
Thanx for the hornresp tutorial !!! I think, that I can apply the logic to the TWTD plans. The question that still remains is how to model the position of the exit port size and position. But, Thank you for the excellent tutorial and the video.
Sh*t, man. I'm just trying to build a simple 11L sub for my office and ended up modelling a transmission line.
PLEASE take me out of this rabbit hole :D
That was awesome.
Awesome video! Thanks a lot, this is a great first step in learning Hornresp. Peace!
Good job...👍👍👍
I think I'm finally understanding this stuff. Looks like the 1/3rd rule is ideal in this design. (Or that's what it looks like)
Muito bom ,bem explicado,fale sobre xmax do falante👍🏾
Would be great if you could do an example using tapering (variable area within the TL). Thanks!
I personally wouldn't take the peak out at 30HZ that's a frequency that is kind of hard to hear so it makes sense to leave a little bit of extra acoustic energy there
The latest version of Hornresp makes it even easier to design TLs. After entering the driver's parameters, just select "Tools... TL Design", then double-click on the Method until the predicted frequency response is close to what you're aiming for. From there you can fine-tune the sim by changing the location of the driver, the csa of the line, the filling, etc.
Actually it is Tools -> Design Wizard -> TL Design. But thanks for the tip.
Thanks, finally some a good tutorial for Hornresp. Would you consider doing a video on another type of horn sub using Hornresp?
I have also tried using this formula of displased air volume:-. f=C/2π√A/l/v where:- A---sectional area of duct. I----length of duct. V--the active displasable volume. C--speed of sound in air and it works well with small drivers of around 12cm diameter and less but when it comes to about 15cm and above the sound only gets muffled up. Why could this be happening?
To achieve the same results, instead of offsetting the driver, you could put the baffle inside the box, and fold the tube to make it end exactly where the driver is. There is only one vent, and both the direct pressure from the front of the driver and the back pressure that travels through the tube exit through the same vent. Advantage: you don't have to use any absorption at all. Zero damping!
How do you simulate it in hornresp
Are you describing a 4th order bandpass?
The need of the hour. Was putting off modelling a TL subwoofer for quiet long. Thankyou. How about a tapered TL ? You can just do the modelling part of it.
super tare indiferent ce zice altul
I am curious, if you use multiple subwoofers do you need to multiply the Sd? So in your case if you added a second sub would you double the area of the t-line to like 700 or leave it the same as the single driver?
Not sure if you still need the answer but basically yes. You can also simulate double speaker in hornresp. Also you can experiment and make the area of your pipe smaller than total Sd of your drivers. Sometimes it works nicely
The end result is impressive for a t-line or a horn for that matter. Nice work Marius. I'm guessing that box sounds excellent playing rock and progressive metal no?
I thinks so, yes. If I were to characterize it, I would say it sounds very transparent. It's like you don't even have a subwoofer. But if you take it away, you notice that something is missing.
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Very nice! Thank you for doing this tutorial. I have a pair of the Dayton Ultimax 10" subwoofers just delivered recently. I have wanted to build a T-Line enclosure for the pair to go in the back of my Ford F-150 extended cab (rear seats removed). Your tutorial has made this possible since there aren't too many viable examples for the layperson out there. Have you tried to make a dual subwoofer t-line box before? If so, how did it work out using two subs? Thanks again!
The area of the line needs to be at least 2x the effective area of the cone. So, you can imagine that the box size would be huge. It's the same thing as with 1 speaker only that the area of the line needs to twice as large.
Have a look on hexibases channel, he build a Tiny dual sub t-line. Maybe thats helpful
good day friend, sorry if I put 2 woffer in 1 only drawer tline increases the area of the port?
Very enlightening video Marius. Big fan of your courses. Please keep going!
Quick question. The oem announced t/s parameters of the drivers are usually apart from real measurements. Do you suggest using oem specs or dats messured specs while defining quarter wave length?
Cheers
Ideally you would wan’t to burn-in the driver, measure it, and use those numbers. But manufacturer specs are ok too.
@@AudioJudgement thanks! Sure after burn in.
@@AudioJudgement Depends on the manufacturer. Dayton is usually pretty good with their published specs (I've used many of their drivers). Some other manufacturers, not so much. However, they're not difficult to measure, using a simple DIY Impedance jig and the freeware REW software. Or you can just do like I did and purchase a DATS for that purpose.
Thanks.. at least i can see how the sound look like.
Really Great video! But what happens if i Place the driver close to the exit of the line? Like i designed a tline of 2.3m for the ultimax 12" placed at 40cm in the line , i got the exit of the line at about 10cm of the driver
Благодарю
Hello, very good work ! i'm french and i have find nothing on the internet that explain how make a TL so very big thnak to you bro ! And can we have a link for the adhesive damping material please ? It will be great. And another time, really thank to you !
Here you go: www.soundimports.eu/en/monacor-mdm-30.html
can you do a tapered horn design?
Dang, I'm trying to learn tapered line horn modeling for some mids.
Can you explain how to do a tapped horn?
When building a T-Line enclosure, do you know if there is a difference between mounting the speaker parallel or perpendicular to the line? I don't know if I'm describing it properly, but I would describe your speaker as being mounted parallel with the line.
What really brings about these peaks?
Hey love your work I am trying to make a box That Can Perform an accurate bandwidth of 20 - 60 Hz in or out my cabin for an SQL-SPLBuilt.with an Accurate frequency response.I have a DSP that can save the different settings and a RTA to tune it so I figure that it can be possible with the windows down so the cabin won’t acted as a chamber and give me a different Response. All of this in mind I think is best going for a sealed box 15 inch isobaric load .Am I going in the right direction for the Built?Is it even possible?
Actually, rolling the windows down does transform the car into a chamber. The whole thing is basically a 4th order bandpass. The subwoofer is already in a sealed box. And the car is the ported chamber. The port being the window. Of course, lowering all 4 windows all the way down will negate the effect. In my experience rolling one window not all the way down, increases the perceived pressure. Anyway, regarding your question, a sealed subwoofer usually doesn't play linearly down to 20 Hz. But if you DSP the crap out of it, it can do it.
@@AudioJudgement going for a t-line since all doors will be open I’m going for a pro audio built but what does a isobaric do
I would go 6th order bandpass
I find scheme of PMC speakers in TL design, and inside cabinets is... foam "egg-shaped". PMC is good engeneers or bad?
Eggcrate foam absorbs high frequencies. They have some purpose.
Can we also design regular bass reflex boxes with this app?
I'm sure you can, but I don't really see the reason why not use some of the more friendly apps out there.
@@AudioJudgement ok thank you
It can be done, with the added advantage that Hornresp can show you how the positioning of both the driver and the vent in the box can impact its response. I use Hornresp for all of my box design work now. However, instead of designing first in Hornresp and then trying to translate that to a build, I use one of my BOXPLAN workbooks to start with an idea of what I want to build, and then tweak the Hornresp sim that the workbook produces to get the best results. BOXPLAN-VBSLOT and BOXPLAN-ODOV are the ones I'd use to design vented boxes with Hornresp. The BOXPLAN workbooks are available here, all in various stages of completeness :-) : www.diysubwoofers.org/sheets/
My Hornresp does not offer all the functionality of yours :(
Can I get a link to the program you are using please!
hornresp.net/
What if port area reduced (by 30% )
Hi Marius, for me would be the most important questions about sound quality. Is it worht to struggle with TL? Is it sounds better than bass reflex?
I can see that appeal in building a T-line floorstander for a full range speaker like the Fostex builds. But if you want to build a subwoofer, bass reflex wins in so many categories, it makes the decision quite simple.
@@AudioJudgement Thank you for answer, Marius. Regarding complexity to produce is obvious winer is bass reflex. But in your video you wrote TL sound very different compared to any other enclosure type. This is most interseting part for me. What do you mean? Is it sound better or worse? What is you impresions? If it possible to describe with words.
@@evaldas7346 I like how it compliments a pair of fullrange speakers without being too obvious that there is a subwoofer present.
With today's high performance subwoofer drivers, box design programs usually end up suggesting small boxes with long large vents. In those cases, it might be best to just build a TL instead to ensure that you don't end up with big peaks and notches in the passband due to pipe resonance effects. And with a TL you get the added advantage of the internal panels also helping to brace the box for better bass performance.
My "Boom Unit" build is an example of a design that looks like a shelf-loaded vented box, but was actually designed using TL techniques to reduce the impact of pipe resonances. More info here: www.diysubwoofers.org/projects/home/boomunit/
@@AudioJudgement Thanks
Didn't get to see the final design ... just a funny looking box lol 😂
I have downloaded hornresp but it doesn't open in Windows 10. Which program opens it? .DAT file extension does not recognize it. Don't know what to do...
There should be an executable file hornresp.exe
But the measurement are taken at 1 meter? Normally. Why you stick the mic next to the driver? ,a trapezoidal exit path help to cancell out the resonances/modes of a square area, in theory. Great job!!
It's the only way to make an anechoic measurement without an anechoic chamber. At 1m you capture room response as well. Nearfield measurements are accurate only at low frequencies (depending on speaker size) and therefore work great for subwoofers.
Great video. Just one thing…Rockwool is cancerogenic.
@3:15 you said "+6dB , +12db ,( +18dB) on the screen and so on ,i don't know what this is here" , actually is 0dB on free space ,the loading setting is to get an accurate SPL graph of your simulation, when your cabinet is in free space ( a pole ) or hanged in air, you do not have any loading thus you do not have any dB gain on SPL, every time you add a boundary, that means like the floor that is +3dB , every time you add another boundary there is +3dB , so long story short, cabinet in a pole stand, 0db gain, cabinet on the floor with no walls +3db, cabinet in the floor next to a wall +6dB gain , cabinet in the floor on a corner +9db Gain cause there is 3 boundaries, floor... wall and wall ( as it is on a corner ) so normally when you calculate for outdoor PA you use 2PI that means floor loading only as there is only a +3dB gain for the floor. and normally home audio use corner loading ,+9db if the sub is on a corner, or when you are designing a sub for a car sub you use corner loading as the cabin gives you the extra gain, you can use lower sensitivity drivers because you have the +9db boost from the cabin or trunk. and that gives you an accurate projected SPL graph depending the power in you are feeding to your driver. also every time you double the cabinets you have +3db gain and if you double the power you have another +3db gain, so if you have a car sub and you have a 500watt amp, if you add another identical cabinet and another 500w amp you have upgraded your system +6db from what it was before. hope this helps.
Hello! Everything you said is correct. However, transition from full space to half space to quarter space results in +6 / +12 dB gain (not 3dB increments).
@@AudioJudgementwell
, here is some theory "Space-loading loudspeakers means that the otherwise
spherical radiation is limited by a boundary or boundaries.
Some common scenarios are shown in Figure 1, and are
often described by the fraction of a sphere to which the
radiation is confined. Since these are fractions the correct
usage would be "1/n-space" but I have used the common
descriptors that omit the "1/".
The classical theory states that the effective gain realized
from incoherent summing due to radiation confinement is
+3dB for each additional boundary, and that +9dB relative to
the free-field response can be achieved by "corner-loading"
a loudspeaker. In acoustics the results are never that ideal, so
part of my motivation was to determine when this or something different happens. We would certainly expect the
boundary interaction be frequency-dependent, and indeed it
is"
see page 4
www.prosoundtraining.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/VOL36_DEC08_Boundaries-1.pdf
@@rolosaenz The author of the paper you linked want's to dispel the fact that when placing a speaker near a boundary, the gain is not +6 dB, it's more like + 3 dB. There is no denying that measuring a speaker inside a large room will result in all kinds of results depending on the box size, number of speakers inside the box, mic positioning, room modes etc. You can even see that when measuring a horn, the gain is basically +0-1 dB regardless how many boundaries. Nevertheless, the theory is that in ideal conditions the increments are +6 dB. Check the graph at the top of page 6, where you can see the 6 dB difference between graph lines. Anyway, I if you design, more or less, conventional style boxes for subwoofers in Hornresp and play with the solid radiation angle slider, you will get 6 dB variations between ticks. However, if you use the speaker-box example which comes by default when starting the app (which is a horn), and start playing with that slider, the result are quite different. This answers my question of why that slider is even there, and also reminds me of how limited is my experience with horns.
we didnt get to hear them to hear the differences. yes, they would not be accurate. but at least u can hear what the first does, then the second and u should discern the different output
@21"31 i like you hammer , cel mai tare ciocan
You needed to let your viewers know that you used Metric System to calculate your wavelength.
This dude's voice should be on the sleeping app😴😴😴😴😴
Well, your mom is so fat she is in fact on every app!
Whatsup gays
Norton blocked the hornresp due to malicious content. Very disappointing.
Yeah, this happens sometimes with "indie" software, but I'm sure it's a false positive.
@@AudioJudgement It is. Windows 10 blocks "unsigned" apps, and the Hornresp program is unsigned. The warning can be ignored.
What.?who?,,, 😮
Mike jones!
1:30 That's a terrible starting point. You'll never end up with a system response at the driver's free air resonance, because you know... It won't be in free air. It'll be in a ported enclosure, because a transmission line is just that - a very simple ported enclosure. A better starting point is the size of a rather large bass reflex enclosure plus the port. You simulate it in any sim, take the volume and the system Fs, the port's tuning and you work around these numbers. Otherwise you're chasing a moving target and just wasting time. Unless you pick a very specific driver, it's worth picking a shorter line because drivers have their limits.
There is a better way of finding the length of the line described in a video by Backyard Amusement.
Lastly most bass drivers don't like being tuned too low, so best find an info on how low and loud your sub can be driven before it's being strained. You'll find that most of the time the Tline will need to be shorter.
Hello! You are a bit confused. Transmission line is totally different compared to a ported enclosure. While they look similar the working principle is not the same. Bass reflex is a resonator while TL is just a wave guide for the back wave. As the back wave travels the long line, the phase is shifted and when it comes out, it adds with the front wave. A TL is not even a box, per se. You can slap a long pipe to the back of the speaker and it will work the same way. A transmission line is more related to horns than to ported enclosures.
@@AudioJudgement Hi there! Sorry for late reply, just found your comment today. So I think you are a little confused as well. I know well how to design a transmission line and one thing I know for example is that there are variations of it. You have a back loaded horn also known as a flared TL, a tapered TL, but I want to focus on another variant that is mass loaded TL.
MLTL is basically a bass reflex enclosure that was designed with a transmission line model. There are very concrete reasons to pick one form over the other and they are dictated by driver parameters. To make the story short: it all comes down to how much volume in the enclosure you can have before the excursion is too much. So if you think about it this way, you'll soon be able to say, that a straight TL can be also imagined as just bass reflex enclosure where the box volume is zero and the port takes the entire loading. The volume of the duct matters just as much a the volume of a ported box! This is very important, because you need to be able to determine which driver will work better in a small reflex enclosure, and which can handle a TL, and if so then which type of TL is best. For example none of the popular SB acoustics drivers are suitable for a straight TL, but some are OK in a small MLTL.
You can say that a TL is not even a box, but then is a bass reflex a box? :) It is a box to frequencies above system resonance and not a box to frequencies below it. In case of TL the dropoff can be made less steep, but it doesn't escape the laws of physics. How did you say it? " As the back wave moves the air in the port, the phase is shifted and when it comes out, it adds with the front wave" ;) You see what I did there? In practice the major sonic difference between a BR and a TL is that TL has a lower Q resonance, which means a less steep slope. It also implies less stuffing, because we are lacking a bit in the amplitude.
The unspoken difference between these two concepts is that if you simplify in your mind that TL is roughly the same as BR, then TL model still gives you more insight into what happens in the enclosure. You can model a driver with TL model and with BR model and end up with the same exact enclosure. It's very unlikely, but only because when you see the duct resonances (port resonances in case of BR or MLTL) you start playing with placement and stuffing to make it more refined, then what you'd do given just the lumped model of a resonator. Not sure if Hornresp can do it as well as Leonard Audio software that I've been using in the past. Either way you see the wiggles and you want the lowest ones to cancel out, so you nudge the port every mm into place. :) That's about it. That's the only significant difference on designer's side unless you have a special driver with suspension stiff enough to be mounted into a straight duct or a horn.
As I said it half year ago, designing the duct is chasing a moving target. When you change the length of the TL to match driver resonance, you change the volume, which changes the system resonance, which changes the duct length, which changes the volume... Unfortunately it's not a playground without limits that people make it out to be. People who design bass reflex enclosures often put bricks inside, when the midrange distorts from overexcursion. With a TLine it's not as simple, so it's a good idea to find the volume first. From there you make your decision on which variant suits the driver best. If the volume is nonsensical, then you make a FTL. If it's large, then straight, then tapered... Finally the glorified BR also known as MLTL. You can look at Qts and the variants of Xmax, but I noticed that often people online will tell you when they make the volume smaller. That's how I designed MLTL with SB17 and SB23 drivers even without the large signal Klippel data.
Fr1 can't be correlated to density of acoustic material.
The alpha coefficient en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_(acoustics) varies from 0 = total reflection, to 1 = total absorption; and depends on the frequency of the sound.
Apparently Fr1 is related to the acoustic absorption coefficient alpha, such that Fr1 = alpha * 1000.
What if you repeat the measure without that 3% Rock wool? and with acoustic foam? which results would happen?
Greetings from Chile!
Marius, you are doing a fantastic work, keep it going !!! is there any way i could contact you over mail, i too design DIY speakers and amps, need to discuss a project with you