Protestant here. While we work out our differences, can we just take a moment to celebrate this season in which God is clearly starting to bring us together.
Amen. And we need to unite and speak in charity. The world is more intent on persecuting Christians than ever. May God keep us strong. Glory to Jesus Christ.
Church will never remove papacy, indulgences, purgatory, marian dogmas. And sola scriptura will forever be Protestantism’s middle finger pointing at the pope and council. Peace for the sake of a season of human sentiment is slightly insincere.
There's something I really appreciate and love about two Christians having an intellectual conversation about God, heaven etc including thoughts many of us may have and just being very real about it without disrespect. It makes me happy + it's very interesting to listen to. thanks so much for that!
It’s wonderful seeing a prominent Protestant and a prominent Catholic having a very friendly and productive dialogue. We have way more in common than not.
Very interesting. I've been thinking about something related, recently, and I've been reminded of C.S. Lewis' quote "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen not only because I see it but because by it I see everything else." What this means is that Christianity is not purely propositional, i.e., God exists, Jesus rose from the dead, therefore, Christianity is true, but also experiential in the sense that it gives us a story to live in and affords us a great world of meaning and purpose; it shapes and makes sense of the world we live in, such that certain things which we could not quite put our finger on before seem so obvious to us now. Here is one way I like to analogize this: suppose that there is a man with terrible vision, and his perception of the material world is extremely blurry. He can not differentiate between dog and cat or car and bus based on vision alone. He is, for all intents and purposes, blind. One day, an ophthalmologist walks up to him and says, "Here, try on this pair of glasses, it will help you see better." The man with blurry vision may put on the pair of glasses, see the world for what it truly is, and not be able to give a single reason evidentially as to why the lens of the glasses work and fit his eyes in particular. The axiom that justifies belief that the glasses work is not based on a proposition or evidence, per se, but faith, that is, trust in the device because of the world that it has afforded them. Likewise, if someone is plagued with a disease and a doctor gives them a cure and the disease goes away, the patient needn't be able to articulate any reason why or how the cure worked, but simply, that it did, and thus faith in the cure is justified. Later on, the patient may seek to understand the reasons for why the cure worked and then explain it to other people such that they may also participate in the cure. This is, I think, the best way to understand faith in the Christian sense. It is not blind assent to a proposition such as "God exists," but faith in God based on how participation in the Divine nature shapes and makes sense of our perception of the world, i.e., basic metaphysics, the material world, the moral sphere, etc. Propositional arguments for God's existence and the Christian religion can and must be given, but one must also "try on the glasses" or "take the medicine" so to speak, in order to not just the see the light of Christ, but see also how his light illuminates everything else. In other words, don't _just_ spend all your time studying the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth, though this is certainly a worthwhile pursuit, but also _participate in Christ_ and see what world he has to give you. Christ helps us to distinguish right from wrong, for example, which we could not understand before but cannot now unsee because of Him. Practically, this means going to Church, participating in the liturgy, prayer, reading Scripture, etc. It may be difficult to understand these things, and, certainly, we will go our entire lives confronted by things we do not understand, but our faith grows, nevertheless, when we see how participation in the mysteries forms and enlightens our understanding of the world. We must learn how to swim in these waters so mysterious! A man who spends his days swimming, though he does not understand completely the waters, gradually becomes more fish-like. A Christian who spends his life participating in the Divine life, though so limited is his understanding of it, gradually becomes more Christlike, and this mystery we must embrace with passion.
This is well said. How to say this to an atheist who is trying to understand, even if they try to agree to try why would they try to adhere to practices of catholicism? They might try this same this thing with other religions too right like follow the practices of other religions and there are some religions that provide good experiential good feelings like Hinduism or Islam, so how will an atheist get convinced to try to follow the catholic religions practices to get experiential proof.
@@Jeni-b8j Whichever one offers you the clearest vision of the world. It might mean reading the Quran, or understanding the main beliefs of Hinduism, which I am not familiar with. If these are false religions, they will not help you see the world any better. When you put on the right pair of eye-glasses so to speak, you will know it. The analogy is not a proof for Christianity, so much as it is a way of understanding how religious conviction or religious faith might work. One thing that you could think about is how a particular religion offers to re-align certain parts of the material world with their Divine purposes. How does Christianity offer to restore broken human relationships and covenants such as marriage, and how does a religion like Islam strive to do that? I think when we understand how the Old Testament is fulfilled and perfected through the revelation of Christ in the New Testament, and when we look at the world through the Revelation of Christ, we can see how the individual manifestations of the Divine reason in Creation, the logoi (you and me, all of humanity, dogs, cats, planets, stars, etc.,) are being restored to their original purposes in unity with the Logos. Just as when the man with poor vision can, when he has put on the correct pair of eyeglasses, unite in his perception the material facts of the world with their respective meanings and purposes, i.e., a certain pattern of being may be identified as cat, and a certain pattern of being may be identified as car, and a cat that is not existing according to its intended purpose or is not fully cat is one that has three legs or tears apart furniture, and a car that is up in flames is not fully car, so also can we, when he have looked at the world through the Light of Christ we see, for example, what an institution like marriage is fully intended to be, in terms of its purpose in regards to human relationships, that is, monogamous, permanent, able to bring forth Children, etc., and its perfect form which is manifested in our relationship to God, that is, Christ and his Bride the Church. It is very easy to see the validity and beauty of this structure, but you can not get fully there without Christianity.
Thanks for this, Matt. The way you put words (or lack thereof lol) to your experience helps me articulate mine. Gavin, you’re awesome. Thanks for doing what you do for Christ. Praying for both of you boldly at the throne of grace.
Amazing talk. I love your vulnerabilit Matt. I have the same doubts about "is this all just a ridiculous idea?" But then I also feel like Gavin. It's just a feeling in my heart.
"Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things-trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that’s a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We’re just babies making up a game, if you’re right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That’s why I’m going to stand by the play world. I’m on Aslan’s side even if there isn’t any Aslan to lead it. I’m going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn’t any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we’re leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that’s a small loss if the world’s as dull a place as you say." -- Puddleglum, The Silver Chair, C.S. Lewis
When talking about the afterlife, I haven't heard much thought given to the mental anguish of knowing others, potentially loved ones, are eternally suffering in hell. Any good resources or answers for this?
I'm sorry my friend. I'm afraid this thought haunts us all. Idk if this will help but, very often, our first instinct when confronted with this is to look for resources to put our mind at ease. And while that will help in the short-term, the knowledge that we cannot ultimately know who will be saved and who will be damned. I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you are feeling despair, step back and stop reading every compilation of quotes. You don't have to know every single thing that the church fathers or any saints said about this. I read this in a Reddit thread once: Remember that if God removes our transgressions from us "as far as the east is from the west" (Psalm 102/103:12), His mercy most certainly extends far beyond what any of us can comprehend and will presumably transcend our own standards.
Arguments can be powerful. The reason why I call myself an agnostic rather an atheist is because the cosmological argument is, for me, absolutely unanswerable and still keeps me awake at night.
Good point - the cosmological argument is pretty powerful. The ones which keep me awake at night would be the historical evidence for the resurrection of Christ + the research done into Near Death Experiences. Lee Strobel’s books “The Case for Christ” and “The Case for Heaven” go into these in a lot of depth. I highly recommend them.
@@junkmail8883 Interesting points. Having studied psychology, NDEs don't hold much weight for me. They are entirely too culturally specific to seem like anything else besides hallucinations caused by the brain being in a state of shutdown/intense shock. I will say that it is incredibly fascinating that the Shroud of Turin has recently been dated to the 1st century and is likely from Judea. Not conclusive evidence, certainly, but does give one pause and demands further exploration.
I think I'm the complete opposite of many things these excellent men were talking about. To me, the arguments are not just an encouragement; they are mind boggling powerful. I have agonized over theories of a universe void of a Creator, to details and theories beyond human words, and I still find them completely unbelievable. In fact, when times come that I become tempted to walk away, the first thing I ask myself is "How will I intellectually justify my apostacy", and I cannot come up with an honest answer. Also again on the Problem of Evil, -this argument does almost nothing to my faith. Once when studying Geddy Lee's bass playing, I considered how the toughness of the music is what makes him a great musician. Shortly later, when praying about something I told God was too hard for me, He replied, "I expect great men to be great." If I can appreciate great musicians for the challenges they face, why am I unwilling to face spiritual challenges as a testimony of greatness? That said, I can sympathize with the compassion of the "seasons of the dark night of the soul." But there's a kind of darkness that I think they didn't understand. They talked about the dark implications of atheism, -which ultimately culminates in nihilism. I've gone down the nihilist route, and I can understand why Pascal's Wager and the hope of Christianity doesn't sound good to them. I think of Hawk Eye in Avenger's Endgame, -when he was so broken and nihilistic, that when he was first told about a chance to fix everything, his only words were, "Don't give me hope." To those who are in that dark of a place, "hope" isn't good news; it's terrifying. It's like asking somebody to love again after they've been burned. I remember sitting despairingly at Hebrews 11:6. "The one who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder for those who seek Him." I was happy to believe God exists, but something made me tear up that He is a rewarder. It is not enough to believe in God, but to hope in God, for He is good.
I suppose my resistance to Pascal's Wager has always been a) prayer and action motivated by "eh I'll just do it to hedge my bets" doesn't count for getting into Heaven ("depart from me, i never knew you") and b) there is a serious cost you pay in this life by adopting these beliefs, it isn't as free as it is potentially suggested. Also, the emotive qualities you assign to the world without God are subjective. I don't share them at all.
I think about it like this. If God is real (and He is), your prayers and attempt to cooperation with His Grace should be enough to make you see that He is real. Once you see that, then surely that would help sway your motivations to the right reasons, yeah?
@thementalist1213 that hasn't worked thus far. I've attended mass, prayed the rosary and been to adoration, not to mention I follow and consume a not insubstantial amount of Catholic content. None of that has resulted in anything that speaks to the existence of a deity, and has in fact just demanded my time and attention for no return at all. (besides Pints of course, I enjoy watching most of Matt's content). Of course there is no reason for you to believe me when I say I've tried, but there we are.
I have always been struck by the very first words of Jesus recorded in John's Gospel: "What are you seeking?" What would need to be different about your current experience to make you want to become a follower of Jesus? It sounds like you've had some interest for a while, too. What spurred that interest?
Faith is an attitude towards God and towards the order He established. A commitment to a certain proposition. Also, your critique against Pascal's Wager is a classic non-argument: you feel that a faith-based life without a strong feeling of assurance on its principles is vain. Source?? Otherwise, seems emotion-based. Especially when saying "there is a serious cost you pay in this life" it seems you're referring to the loss of pleasure when you stop engaging in a sinful lifestyle. Which you then try to rationalize by trying to convince yourself that the faith where you commit to a certain proposition with your life isn't authentic enough, so why bother?
Thinking about Christ crucified and risen, which is such an unusual way to start a worldwide faith that would endure severe persecutions from the start really made the other faiths and their founders pale in comparison though they do have some elements of truth. Forgiveness for evil done, empowerment to change, and love was vastly better than just living for worldly pleasures & goals.
If you read "Pensees", Pascal's Wager is meant to be a tie breaker for someone stuck between secularism and Christianity. Pascal argues for Christianity for 200 pages. On a scale of 1-10, suppose that Richard Dawkins is a 1 and Pope Francis is a 10. If a person is a 3, 4 or 5, then Pascal's Wager is for them. There are millions of Americans in that situation. In this context, I think it's great.
It is often our pride that puffs us up with a love of all our complex doctrines and theology. It is not that love which can save us, but only the love of the gospel, the love of Christ. At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 18:1-4
What comes after seems to have been Jesus’ concern. Since His character was eminently trustworthy, even if I can’t deductively prove Heaven is true, I can inductively reason it is true based off Jesus who has earned my trust. Islam also claims there’s an afterlife, but the character of its founder is not trustworthy so inductively the Muslim claim about paradise is unlikely to be true. Its nature is also one of carnal pleasure, which is lower than spiritual pleasure, thus making the Muslim idea of paradise a weaker position. If Heaven is our beloved homeland then Earth is its colony and we shouldn’t love the homeland less, especially since common sense tells us life on Earth is not perfect.
“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.” - Matthew 7:7 “Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” - Jeremiah 33:3 “Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?” - Jeremiah 32:27
Pascal’s wager is a deeply cynical and self-serving approach to God, and Jesus said that unless we become like little children we can have no part in the kingdom of heaven.
An interesting thought but it just doesn’t work . Your faith will be like the foolish man who built his house on the sand . You will lose your faith as soon as you face an issue in life . Faith is a gift that we can nurture through prayer and reading or listening to the word of God! We cannot trick ourselves into believing just like we cannot trick ourselves into loving someone
Okay, and? This is not the Gotcha argument that you think that it is. If there are no gods and one lived as an atheist, then he didn't waste his finite time, money, and effort on something that wasn't true. That's more than enough reward.
@@Charlotte_Martel even if God isn't true though, the Christian still didn't waste their time. Meeting your wife/husband, having your kids, where you find joy, involvement in your community and town, spreading joy, all of that is objectively true and happens in the life of a Christian, and, for the Christian, happens through the means of the outlet of Christianity
The Christian afterlife is one of main reasons why I find the religion so off-putting. I want to know what's true and good because that's the best use of my limited time here on Earth. Whatever comes after is not my concern. Stop trying to sell me the faith with the afterlife.
@@brianw.5230It doesn't matter what you want. Reality isn't decided by our desires. The afterlife either exists or it doesn't, and there's no conclusive evidence demonstrating that it does.
Hallelujah!!!!! Your channel has been a big part of my transformation, God is good. I had a $37,000 loan from the bank for my son's(Bryan) brain surgery. I am now dept free after I invested $8,000 and got my payment of $25,500 each month. God bless Ms Kathleen Mary Vella.
It is the digital market. That's been the secret to this wealth transfer. A lot of folks in the US amd abroad are getting so much from it, God has been good to my household Thank you Jesus
Ortlund's idea that human suffering will make sense in heaven is monstrous and not reassuring. For example, I cannot believe the Holocaust or American slavery was ever worth it - no matter any degree of heavenly glory for the victims. This thinking is less theological than it is theoretical and inhumane. Ortlund should read David Bentley Hart's The Doors of the Sea.
I’ve always thought it’s a deeply cynical approach to God; and Jesus has said that unless we become like little children we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.
Protestant here. While we work out our differences, can we just take a moment to celebrate this season in which God is clearly starting to bring us together.
@@MarinusSwanepoel-h3q remember Babel.. is it better for us to became us one or not…
Amen. And we need to unite and speak in charity. The world is more intent on persecuting Christians than ever. May God keep us strong. Glory to Jesus Christ.
Church will never remove papacy, indulgences, purgatory, marian dogmas. And sola scriptura will forever be Protestantism’s middle finger pointing at the pope and council. Peace for the sake of a season of human sentiment is slightly insincere.
@@kimkimaralte430 Ephesians 1:10 says that the plan is to unite all things under Christ
@@Anti-pro73 It's not human sentiment. It's literally in the Bible.
There's something I really appreciate and love about two Christians having an intellectual conversation about God, heaven etc including thoughts many of us may have and just being very real about it without disrespect. It makes me happy + it's very interesting to listen to. thanks so much for that!
It’s wonderful seeing a prominent Protestant and a prominent Catholic having a very friendly and productive dialogue. We have way more in common than not.
Very interesting. I've been thinking about something related, recently, and I've been reminded of C.S. Lewis' quote "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen not only because I see it but because by it I see everything else." What this means is that Christianity is not purely propositional, i.e., God exists, Jesus rose from the dead, therefore, Christianity is true, but also experiential in the sense that it gives us a story to live in and affords us a great world of meaning and purpose; it shapes and makes sense of the world we live in, such that certain things which we could not quite put our finger on before seem so obvious to us now. Here is one way I like to analogize this: suppose that there is a man with terrible vision, and his perception of the material world is extremely blurry. He can not differentiate between dog and cat or car and bus based on vision alone. He is, for all intents and purposes, blind. One day, an ophthalmologist walks up to him and says, "Here, try on this pair of glasses, it will help you see better." The man with blurry vision may put on the pair of glasses, see the world for what it truly is, and not be able to give a single reason evidentially as to why the lens of the glasses work and fit his eyes in particular. The axiom that justifies belief that the glasses work is not based on a proposition or evidence, per se, but faith, that is, trust in the device because of the world that it has afforded them. Likewise, if someone is plagued with a disease and a doctor gives them a cure and the disease goes away, the patient needn't be able to articulate any reason why or how the cure worked, but simply, that it did, and thus faith in the cure is justified. Later on, the patient may seek to understand the reasons for why the cure worked and then explain it to other people such that they may also participate in the cure.
This is, I think, the best way to understand faith in the Christian sense. It is not blind assent to a proposition such as "God exists," but faith in God based on how participation in the Divine nature shapes and makes sense of our perception of the world, i.e., basic metaphysics, the material world, the moral sphere, etc. Propositional arguments for God's existence and the Christian religion can and must be given, but one must also "try on the glasses" or "take the medicine" so to speak, in order to not just the see the light of Christ, but see also how his light illuminates everything else. In other words, don't _just_ spend all your time studying the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth, though this is certainly a worthwhile pursuit, but also _participate in Christ_ and see what world he has to give you. Christ helps us to distinguish right from wrong, for example, which we could not understand before but cannot now unsee because of Him. Practically, this means going to Church, participating in the liturgy, prayer, reading Scripture, etc. It may be difficult to understand these things, and, certainly, we will go our entire lives confronted by things we do not understand, but our faith grows, nevertheless, when we see how participation in the mysteries forms and enlightens our understanding of the world. We must learn how to swim in these waters so mysterious! A man who spends his days swimming, though he does not understand completely the waters, gradually becomes more fish-like. A Christian who spends his life participating in the Divine life, though so limited is his understanding of it, gradually becomes more Christlike, and this mystery we must embrace with passion.
Beautifully and insightfully said. I appreciate this.
This is well said. How to say this to an atheist who is trying to understand, even if they try to agree to try why would they try to adhere to practices of catholicism? They might try this same this thing with other religions too right like follow the practices of other religions and there are some religions that provide good experiential good feelings like Hinduism or Islam, so how will an atheist get convinced to try to follow the catholic religions practices to get experiential proof.
@@Jeni-b8j Whichever one offers you the clearest vision of the world. It might mean reading the Quran, or understanding the main beliefs of Hinduism, which I am not familiar with. If these are false religions, they will not help you see the world any better. When you put on the right pair of eye-glasses so to speak, you will know it. The analogy is not a proof for Christianity, so much as it is a way of understanding how religious conviction or religious faith might work. One thing that you could think about is how a particular religion offers to re-align certain parts of the material world with their Divine purposes. How does Christianity offer to restore broken human relationships and covenants such as marriage, and how does a religion like Islam strive to do that? I think when we understand how the Old Testament is fulfilled and perfected through the revelation of Christ in the New Testament, and when we look at the world through the Revelation of Christ, we can see how the individual manifestations of the Divine reason in Creation, the logoi (you and me, all of humanity, dogs, cats, planets, stars, etc.,) are being restored to their original purposes in unity with the Logos. Just as when the man with poor vision can, when he has put on the correct pair of eyeglasses, unite in his perception the material facts of the world with their respective meanings and purposes, i.e., a certain pattern of being may be identified as cat, and a certain pattern of being may be identified as car, and a cat that is not existing according to its intended purpose or is not fully cat is one that has three legs or tears apart furniture, and a car that is up in flames is not fully car, so also can we, when he have looked at the world through the Light of Christ we see, for example, what an institution like marriage is fully intended to be, in terms of its purpose in regards to human relationships, that is, monogamous, permanent, able to bring forth Children, etc., and its perfect form which is manifested in our relationship to God, that is, Christ and his Bride the Church. It is very easy to see the validity and beauty of this structure, but you can not get fully there without Christianity.
Thanks for this, Matt. The way you put words (or lack thereof lol) to your experience helps me articulate mine.
Gavin, you’re awesome. Thanks for doing what you do for Christ.
Praying for both of you boldly at the throne of grace.
I love this Protestant guy. I love when you both talk about how good God is. I love God.
Amazing talk. I love your vulnerabilit Matt. I have the same doubts about "is this all just a ridiculous idea?" But then I also feel like Gavin. It's just a feeling in my heart.
Gavin Outland's final comments resonated with me.
Thanks for the vid, came to me when I needed it.
"Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things-trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that’s a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We’re just babies making up a game, if you’re right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That’s why I’m going to stand by the play world. I’m on Aslan’s side even if there isn’t any Aslan to lead it. I’m going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn’t any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we’re leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that’s a small loss if the world’s as dull a place as you say."
-- Puddleglum, The Silver Chair, C.S. Lewis
I think you're talking about the gift of faith. Faith is a gift. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Amen
When talking about the afterlife, I haven't heard much thought given to the mental anguish of knowing others, potentially loved ones, are eternally suffering in hell.
Any good resources or answers for this?
I'm sorry my friend. I'm afraid this thought haunts us all.
Idk if this will help but, very often, our first instinct when confronted with this is to look for resources to put our mind at ease. And while that will help in the short-term, the knowledge that we cannot ultimately know who will be saved and who will be damned.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you are feeling despair, step back and stop reading every compilation of quotes. You don't have to know every single thing that the church fathers or any saints said about this.
I read this in a Reddit thread once:
Remember that if God removes our transgressions from us "as far as the east is from the west" (Psalm 102/103:12), His mercy most certainly extends far beyond what any of us can comprehend and will presumably transcend our own standards.
Yes. Plus Thomas Aquinas and Saint Augustine said most people go to Hell.
Arguments can be powerful. The reason why I call myself an agnostic rather an atheist is because the cosmological argument is, for me, absolutely unanswerable and still keeps me awake at night.
Good point - the cosmological argument is pretty powerful.
The ones which keep me awake at night would be the historical evidence for the resurrection of Christ + the research done into Near Death Experiences.
Lee Strobel’s books “The Case for Christ” and “The Case for Heaven” go into these in a lot of depth. I highly recommend them.
@@junkmail8883 Interesting points. Having studied psychology, NDEs don't hold much weight for me. They are entirely too culturally specific to seem like anything else besides hallucinations caused by the brain being in a state of shutdown/intense shock. I will say that it is incredibly fascinating that the Shroud of Turin has recently been dated to the 1st century and is likely from Judea. Not conclusive evidence, certainly, but does give one pause and demands further exploration.
I think I'm the complete opposite of many things these excellent men were talking about. To me, the arguments are not just an encouragement; they are mind boggling powerful. I have agonized over theories of a universe void of a Creator, to details and theories beyond human words, and I still find them completely unbelievable. In fact, when times come that I become tempted to walk away, the first thing I ask myself is "How will I intellectually justify my apostacy", and I cannot come up with an honest answer.
Also again on the Problem of Evil, -this argument does almost nothing to my faith. Once when studying Geddy Lee's bass playing, I considered how the toughness of the music is what makes him a great musician. Shortly later, when praying about something I told God was too hard for me, He replied, "I expect great men to be great." If I can appreciate great musicians for the challenges they face, why am I unwilling to face spiritual challenges as a testimony of greatness?
That said, I can sympathize with the compassion of the "seasons of the dark night of the soul." But there's a kind of darkness that I think they didn't understand. They talked about the dark implications of atheism, -which ultimately culminates in nihilism. I've gone down the nihilist route, and I can understand why Pascal's Wager and the hope of Christianity doesn't sound good to them. I think of Hawk Eye in Avenger's Endgame, -when he was so broken and nihilistic, that when he was first told about a chance to fix everything, his only words were, "Don't give me hope." To those who are in that dark of a place, "hope" isn't good news; it's terrifying. It's like asking somebody to love again after they've been burned. I remember sitting despairingly at Hebrews 11:6. "The one who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder for those who seek Him." I was happy to believe God exists, but something made me tear up that He is a rewarder. It is not enough to believe in God, but to hope in God, for He is good.
The timing of this one was perfect. Also reminds me of the opening of Benedict XVI’s Introduction to Christianity on doubt, which is just marvellous
I suppose my resistance to Pascal's Wager has always been a) prayer and action motivated by "eh I'll just do it to hedge my bets" doesn't count for getting into Heaven ("depart from me, i never knew you") and b) there is a serious cost you pay in this life by adopting these beliefs, it isn't as free as it is potentially suggested.
Also, the emotive qualities you assign to the world without God are subjective. I don't share them at all.
I think about it like this. If God is real (and He is), your prayers and attempt to cooperation with His Grace should be enough to make you see that He is real. Once you see that, then surely that would help sway your motivations to the right reasons, yeah?
@thementalist1213 that hasn't worked thus far. I've attended mass, prayed the rosary and been to adoration, not to mention I follow and consume a not insubstantial amount of Catholic content. None of that has resulted in anything that speaks to the existence of a deity, and has in fact just demanded my time and attention for no return at all. (besides Pints of course, I enjoy watching most of Matt's content).
Of course there is no reason for you to believe me when I say I've tried, but there we are.
@@EspadaKing777 I have no reason to not believe you either. And I'm sorry you are in that state. If it's any consolation, I will pray for you as well.
I have always been struck by the very first words of Jesus recorded in John's Gospel: "What are you seeking?"
What would need to be different about your current experience to make you want to become a follower of Jesus?
It sounds like you've had some interest for a while, too. What spurred that interest?
Faith is an attitude towards God and towards the order He established. A commitment to a certain proposition. Also, your critique against Pascal's Wager is a classic non-argument: you feel that a faith-based life without a strong feeling of assurance on its principles is vain. Source?? Otherwise, seems emotion-based. Especially when saying "there is a serious cost you pay in this life" it seems you're referring to the loss of pleasure when you stop engaging in a sinful lifestyle. Which you then try to rationalize by trying to convince yourself that the faith where you commit to a certain proposition with your life isn't authentic enough, so why bother?
Thinking about Christ crucified and risen, which is such an unusual way to start a worldwide faith that would endure severe persecutions from the start really made the other faiths and their founders pale in comparison though they do have some elements of truth. Forgiveness for evil done, empowerment to change, and love was vastly better than just living for worldly pleasures & goals.
If you read "Pensees", Pascal's Wager is meant to be a tie breaker for someone stuck between secularism and Christianity.
Pascal argues for Christianity for 200 pages. On a scale of 1-10, suppose that Richard Dawkins is a 1 and Pope Francis is a 10. If a person is a 3, 4 or 5, then Pascal's Wager is for them. There are millions of Americans in that situation. In this context, I think it's great.
Hi, can someone tell me who Matt mentioned at the very start, the transcript show Bon by Pascal ? Thanks in advance...
The book was Pensees by Blaise Pascal.
@@rupertknapman9639 Thank you.
@@Paul-lw6og You're welcome.
It is often our pride that puffs us up with a love of all our complex doctrines and theology. It is not that love which can save us, but only the love of the gospel, the love of Christ.
At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
- Matthew 18:1-4
What comes after seems to have been Jesus’ concern. Since His character was eminently trustworthy, even if I can’t deductively prove Heaven is true, I can inductively reason it is true based off Jesus who has earned my trust.
Islam also claims there’s an afterlife, but the character of its founder is not trustworthy so inductively the Muslim claim about paradise is unlikely to be true. Its nature is also one of carnal pleasure, which is lower than spiritual pleasure, thus making the Muslim idea of paradise a weaker position.
If Heaven is our beloved homeland then Earth is its colony and we shouldn’t love the homeland less, especially since common sense tells us life on Earth is not perfect.
I like Matt and how he is sharing how deeply he praise God thru in this conversation.. and that post below me is a bot
“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.”
- Matthew 7:7
“Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.”
- Jeremiah 33:3
“Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?”
- Jeremiah 32:27
Hello... the host and the Guest... My question is.. IS CHRISTIANITY PRACTICAL?OR A BUNDLE OF THEORIES...
Leaving a comment because you asked me to, as a favor.
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Pascal’s wager is a deeply cynical and self-serving approach to God, and Jesus said that unless we become like little children we can have no part in the kingdom of heaven.
@@kelkabot I’ve never liked that argument either.
An interesting thought but it just doesn’t work . Your faith will be like the foolish man who built his house on the sand . You will lose your faith as soon as you face an issue in life . Faith is a gift that we can nurture through prayer and reading or listening to the word of God! We cannot trick ourselves into believing just like we cannot trick ourselves into loving someone
Gavin is a G.
But it doesn’t work though..
I have actually said to an atheist, they'll never get the chance to say 'i told you so'.
Okay, and? This is not the Gotcha argument that you think that it is. If there are no gods and one lived as an atheist, then he didn't waste his finite time, money, and effort on something that wasn't true. That's more than enough reward.
@@Charlotte_Martel even if God isn't true though, the Christian still didn't waste their time. Meeting your wife/husband, having your kids, where you find joy, involvement in your community and town, spreading joy, all of that is objectively true and happens in the life of a Christian, and, for the Christian, happens through the means of the outlet of Christianity
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I hope this goes viral.
Quite possibly the worst message/vision to young Christians possible
Radiate Christ and captivate souls.
The Christian afterlife is one of main reasons why I find the religion so off-putting. I want to know what's true and good because that's the best use of my limited time here on Earth. Whatever comes after is not my concern. Stop trying to sell me the faith with the afterlife.
Especially since there's no way to confirm the existence of any afterlife by its very definition.
You don't want trillions of years of bliss?
@@brianw.5230It doesn't matter what you want. Reality isn't decided by our desires. The afterlife either exists or it doesn't, and there's no conclusive evidence demonstrating that it does.
@@Charlotte_Martel Pray and ask for bliss.
God Bless.
@@brianw.5230 Not really, no.
Hey Matt! Have you tried loving as though Islam is true, because what if you're wrong?
Pascal's Wager is the worst argument.
Christians can still go to Muslim Heaven.
Atheists won't.
Hallelujah!!!!! Your channel has been a big part of my transformation, God is good. I had a $37,000 loan from the bank for my son's(Bryan) brain surgery. I am now dept free after I invested $8,000 and got my payment of $25,500 each month. God bless Ms Kathleen Mary Vella.
God bless you more abundantly for your generosity
But then, what do you do? How do you come about that in that period?
It is the digital market. That's been the secret to this wealth transfer. A lot of folks in the US amd abroad are getting so much from it, God has been good to my household Thank you Jesus
Thanks to God, my daughter who introduced me into the digital market. Moreso, thanks to Ms *Kathleen Mary Vella*
***NOTE: this is not a promotion but me trying to make a point that no matter what happens, always have faith and keep living!
Ortlund's idea that human suffering will make sense in heaven is monstrous and not reassuring. For example, I cannot believe the Holocaust or American slavery was ever worth it - no matter any degree of heavenly glory for the victims. This thinking is less theological than it is theoretical and inhumane. Ortlund should read David Bentley Hart's The Doors of the Sea.
There is no sincerity in taking up Mr. Pascal's wager, and I doubt our Lord has much use for pretend prayer.
I’ve always thought it’s a deeply cynical approach to God; and Jesus has said that unless we become like little children we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus basically gave Pascal's Wager in the Sermon on the Mount when he said to "build up your treasures in Heaven."
Fake it till you make it?
@@NathanPK Pascal recommended going to Mass. It's a start.
@@brianw.5230 I agree. Prayer is even more accessible.
Just try Islam bro, it might be true.
Isn’t this the never-Trump climate-change guy?
i love when the guy from shameless popery makes this guy clown Gavin look like a real clown. Cant even watch him anymore all i see is a clown
@@TheTree3 show respect for matt's guests
@@TennisFreakHD i respect the clown, just cant take him seriously anymore... now that shameless popery has pointed out all is B/S